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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Simon. Your book is called a Critical Introduction to Terror.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about that title.

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Speaker 3: Well, I wanted to differentiate it from the other kinds

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Speaker 3: of introductions to Taro that there are, that are more

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Speaker 3: how to guides. So a Critical Introduction to Taro is,

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Speaker 3: as the title suggests, a critical look. But that isn't

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Speaker 3: to say, a criticism, not at all. It's a look

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Speaker 3: using sort of philosophical tools of criticism, so weighing up

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Speaker 3: the arguments and that are implicit in the various kinds

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Speaker 3: of Taro practices that there are. The book is essentially

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Speaker 3: a literature review of the of the different Tarot books

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Speaker 3: that are out there, trying to make sense of the

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Speaker 3: landstack of belief what kinds of beliefs support a Tyro practice,

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Speaker 3: Because a Taro practice itself isn't you know, there's no

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Speaker 3: Taro religion, you know, so it comes it's embedded within

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Speaker 3: any different kinds of beliefs, and so I wanted to

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Speaker 3: understand what kinds of beliefs were compatible with it, as

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Speaker 3: well as understanding the town more deeply. And this book

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Speaker 3: is the result of their journey.

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Speaker 2: Do the tarot cards really foretell the future?

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Speaker 3: Many people believe that it's definitely something that I tried

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Speaker 3: to reason through and make sense of in the book.

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Speaker 3: So I use, as I said, philosophical tools to do that,

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Speaker 3: as well as an understanding of statistics and.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 3: But but I do text seriously that that that claim.

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Speaker 3: What I've discovered is that the belief in a fortune

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Speaker 3: telling or predicted tarot left on it can't rely on

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Speaker 3: a on a materialist metaphysic. But what I mean by

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Speaker 3: that is that the physical world is all that all

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Speaker 3: that exists, also known as physicalism. So it so we're

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Speaker 3: restricted right away that we have to believe in in

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Speaker 3: a spiritual realm at least, or perhaps in some kind

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Speaker 3: of sense where maybe the universe is a projection in,

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Speaker 3: you know, a great consciousness that we're all part of,

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Speaker 3: or maybe even a computer simulation, as some technologists and

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Speaker 3: AI plans are interested in that idea. But that is

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Speaker 3: essentially a kind of what's known philosophically is idealism, which

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Speaker 3: is that there's a more real reality beyond this one,

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Speaker 3: and what we see around this the physical world is

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Speaker 3: less real in some sense. But you know that obviously

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Speaker 3: is a little complicated, but I pulled that apart in

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Speaker 3: the book in detail. And so the answer is people

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Speaker 3: do believe in and I think that depending on one's

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Speaker 3: view of metaphysics, certain certain metaphysics can support that belief

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Speaker 3: for sure. And it's difficult at ultimate to know for

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Speaker 3: sure the answer to those metaphysical questions, you know, and

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Speaker 3: one visit that they for us all to consider is

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Speaker 3: you know, what came before or caused the Big Bang?

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Speaker 3: You know, no one has the answer to that, and

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Speaker 3: we can have those answers, but there are questions that

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Speaker 3: are either outside or understanding or difficult to understand, and

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Speaker 3: then you know what we choose to be our provisional

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Speaker 3: answer on those implications.

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Speaker 2: Simon, I've interviewed so many scientists and physicists about the

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Speaker 2: Big Bang theory and I still have not been told

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Speaker 2: in answer that is acceptable to me. It's it's incredible,

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Speaker 2: it really is absolutely well with these Tyrot cards, what's

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Speaker 2: the history of the tyrant?

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Speaker 3: The Tyrolet cards were created in the fifteenth century and Italy,

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Speaker 3: likely in the land, but the scholarship is still uncovering

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Speaker 3: exactly you know, the exact start of the Tarot but

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Speaker 3: it was certainly created by highest Catholic Christians who created

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Speaker 3: it as a card game, so it was originally a

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Speaker 3: card game, not used as a divination device recently, or

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Speaker 3: at least there's no evidence for them. So as a

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Speaker 3: card game or as a card deck played for a game.

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Speaker 3: The Tarot card deck consists of two sections. The largest

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Speaker 3: section is like our familiar playing card deck, like the

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Speaker 3: poker card deck, which has four suits just like we're

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Speaker 3: used to, and there's ten numbered cards again like we

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Speaker 3: used to, but it has four court cards instead of three.

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Speaker 3: That's called the minor art kind that too people into

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Speaker 3: esoteric t The other section is called the major arcana,

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Speaker 3: but it was originally known as the trumps because of

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Speaker 3: the role that it plays in the game. So that's

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Speaker 3: twenty two cards, and they originally in the game are

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Speaker 3: part of the mechanic in the trick taking game that

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Speaker 3: is taro, similar to Bridge, which is really really popular games,

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Speaker 3: so many people will be familiar with what it means

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Speaker 3: that whether it to be a trick taking game, what

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Speaker 3: that means, and so the trumps are a permanent set

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Speaker 3: of tricks, where as in for example, Bridge cards in

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Speaker 3: the normal playing card section become tricks based on the

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Speaker 3: rules of the game. That's what was originally created as

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Speaker 3: a kind of a game. And then in the eighteenth

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Speaker 3: and nineteenth century at the latest it was, it was

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Speaker 3: used for fortune telling indisignation. So it was taken up

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Speaker 3: by the French occultists at the time, who you know,

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Speaker 3: saw something very interesting in the allegorical images of the

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Speaker 3: taro or the archetypical images of the taro, especially in

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Speaker 3: the trump section, the major arcana those are you know

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Speaker 3: of cards like that and the food you know, judgment,

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Speaker 3: the world, imperence and so on. These are big themes

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Speaker 3: that you know that that do speak to people. If

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Speaker 3: it's one of the reasons why tarro has remained so

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Speaker 3: popular over that many hundreds of years is that these

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Speaker 3: these images are archetypical and sort of apply in all ears.

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Speaker 2: And it seems that nowadays the tarot card is more

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Speaker 2: relegated to mysticism and things like that, don't you agree.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say relegated, but certainly it is. It is

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Speaker 3: mostly used in a mystical practice. Although I think the

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Speaker 3: people in the English speaking word, like you and I

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Speaker 3: might be surprised to them that in Europe, Taro as

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Speaker 3: a card game is still widely played, is usually with

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Speaker 3: yes easily with the deck and called the Tara di

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Speaker 3: marcell which is the most popular deck in Europe. From

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Speaker 3: I want to say around this from the seventeenth century onwards.

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Speaker 3: And just like I described that this game similar to bridge,

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Speaker 3: and it wouldn't be so it obviously has the same

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Speaker 3: pnnotations of fortune telling and so on. But but you

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Speaker 3: know when one famous example is that Sigmund Freud played

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Speaker 3: tarot in the German speaking world, it's called tara and

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Speaker 3: in Italage, by the way, it's called the parachi. And

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Speaker 3: you know it's led us the original name. We use

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Speaker 3: the French arrow with the tea at the end. It's

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Speaker 3: usually silence when pronounced because of the influence of the

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Speaker 3: French occultists in the English speaking world. But so I

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Speaker 3: suppose it is, you know, mostly known to us as

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Speaker 3: a mystical practice. But but there are people today making

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Speaker 3: new card games using tarot, and not only as a

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Speaker 3: as a mystical practice, but people today often use it

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Speaker 3: as a psychological practice, which certainly has a mystical aspect,

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Speaker 3: but is a bit more grounded, maybe in the kind

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Speaker 3: of scientific word at least somewhat scientific world view that

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Speaker 3: most people are sort of maybe forced to inhabit because

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Speaker 3: of the world that we live in, or at least

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Speaker 3: forced to reckon with the kind of scientific ideas that

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Speaker 3: are very dominant in our society.

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Speaker 2: Simon, who determines the outcome of the tarot card? Is

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Speaker 2: it the reader or the person who is getting the

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Speaker 2: tarot reading? For who pulls the card?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that everyone can agree that on some

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Speaker 3: level it comes from its chance based and it's just

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Speaker 3: what influences that chance, if anything.

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Speaker 1: So how a.

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Speaker 3: Tyot card reading usually works. If it's so, they say,

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Speaker 3: there's two people. One is the tyot card reader and

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Speaker 3: the other is the cuarrant or some people call them

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Speaker 3: the secret as the tyroo reading is for. But the

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Speaker 3: tyroot card reader will pick up the deck. They might

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Speaker 3: ask the other person to touch it, or a lot

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Speaker 3: of people don't allow people to touch their their tyroot

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Speaker 3: card deck, and the tarot card reader will shuffle the deck,

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Speaker 3: usually in a ritualistic way. So though they might say something,

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Speaker 3: they might you know, do some mental work like clear

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Speaker 3: their mind, even say a prayer, all depending on the

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Speaker 3: belief the system that they're operating within. They'll shuffle the

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Speaker 3: deck so that introduces randomness into the deck. They usually

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Speaker 3: shuffle it by hand. Tarot cards are actually quite big

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Speaker 3: physically compared to playing card playing cards. You can get

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Speaker 3: smaller cards, but they're often bigger, so that does make

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Speaker 3: shuffling actually a challenge. So some people will spread out

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Speaker 3: the cards on a table and shuffle it that way

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Speaker 3: because it would leaves your depending on as well the

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Speaker 3: size of the person's hands. Believe it or not, but

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Speaker 3: in any case, they'll introduce randomness into the deck, or

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Speaker 3: they'll they'll make the they'll make the deck into a

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Speaker 3: random order, and then they'll pick cards from the top.

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Speaker 3: But they'll do that is usually they use a tarot

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Speaker 3: card spread, which is the name used for laying out

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Speaker 3: the cards on a table in a meaningful way. I

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Speaker 3: always used for simplicity is a three cards spread. We

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Speaker 3: might have three cards from left to right, and the

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Speaker 3: one on the left is the past, the one in

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Speaker 3: the center is the is the present, and the one

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Speaker 3: on the right is the future. And so cards will

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Speaker 3: get pulled three and they'll be put in those positions,

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Speaker 3: and then the tarot card reader will interpret the cards.

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Speaker 3: What cards actually come up in those positions, but also

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Speaker 3: related to where they are in the the layout, the

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Speaker 3: spread itself, So who picks the order of them? I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's a random order, so it just depends on then

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Speaker 3: what do you what do you think randomness? Is? Another

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Speaker 3: example that I often use is if we if we

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Speaker 3: if someone believes, which many people do, that everything happens

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Speaker 3: for a reason, and if they genuinely include everything in

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Speaker 3: that claim, then then it stands to reason that a

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Speaker 3: Tarot cards ordering where the cards that come out happens

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Speaker 3: for a reason. So it's really just what's behind that reason,

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Speaker 3: And that really asks a much, much bigger question about

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Speaker 3: how we can affect those things. I can continue to

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Speaker 3: explain if you'd like the reasons, we can move on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I did want to ask you too that

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Speaker 2: do you believe the Tarot cards are linked very heavily

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Speaker 2: to Christianity, don't you?

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Speaker 3: Yes, It's one of the things I was myself surprised about.

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Speaker 3: But it's what I actually I am continuing to research

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Speaker 3: after the book and write essays about is because tarro

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Speaker 3: has is often denounced by the prominent Christians. You know,

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Speaker 3: you mentioned the Pope Earl on Well in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 3: The Pope also denounced specifically the tarot cards. Okay, he did,

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Speaker 3: and he was, which isn't surprising either, because the Catechism,

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Speaker 3: the Catholic Catechism is strictly against divination practices, although you know,

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Speaker 3: that is also, in my opinion, a bit of a

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Speaker 3: gray area, because other kinds of divination are the interpretation

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Speaker 3: of dreams, for example, and there exists, you know, folk

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Speaker 3: practices that Christians use, such as split into a page

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Speaker 3: in the Bible for advice, which is a kind of divination.

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Speaker 3: And you know, the Bible is also as many examples,

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Speaker 3: especially in the Old Testament, of when the Hebrews used

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Speaker 3: different divinatory practices and so on. But today, in the

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Speaker 3: world we live in today, the Catholic Catechism, which is

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Speaker 3: only you know, written in the last hundred years, was

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Speaker 3: it is explicitly against the nations. So it's not surprising

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Speaker 3: that the Pope will come out with this. But he

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Speaker 3: views the tarot cards, and I think many Christians do,

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Speaker 3: but you know as a you know, only as fortune telling,

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Speaker 3: you know, but most people today, although people do so

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Speaker 3: use it for fortune time that there's a shift towards

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Speaker 3: using it for more personal development. And many tarot authors

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Speaker 3: come out against predictive tarot. One prominent example is Benabel

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Speaker 3: When and her book Holistic Tarror, which is a really

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Speaker 3: great book and I'm very influential, and she prefers what

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Speaker 3: she calls analytic taro as opposed to predictive tarot. But

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Speaker 3: back to your question, so that the Pope came out

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Speaker 3: and denounced tarot as a disignatory practice and that people should,

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Speaker 3: you know, seek wisdom from God instead of tarot cards.

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Speaker 3: But many people do believe that actually God is behind

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Speaker 3: what's going on, or angels or other.

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Speaker 2: Divine speak speaking through the cards.

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Speaker 3: Right, exactly exactly, But but it's it's unonymous almost across

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Speaker 3: the sort of Christian divide as well, you know, Protestants

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Speaker 3: and Evangelicals are as well against them. But I think

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Speaker 3: that there's a lack of appreciation of the of the roots,

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Speaker 3: of the Christian roots of taro. Whether I mentioned, tarot

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Speaker 3: comes from fifteenth century Italy and is imbued with many

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Speaker 3: even the decks of that time were imbued with many

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Speaker 3: Christian symbols. And you know, for example, virtues like temperance

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Speaker 3: is a good example. I mean temperance as a concept

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Speaker 3: is very linked to the Christian movements, let's say end

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Speaker 3: in the probibitionary in America where you're speaking from, there's

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Speaker 3: a temperance movement, right, so that's one of the crowds

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Speaker 3: in the tarot card debt. And that was you know,

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Speaker 3: that's a moral virtue. It was really full of those things.

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