1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: That is sparking creativity among our students to say, all right, 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: I've harmed. What do I have to do to help 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: repair that harm? And that's when some guys years ago said, 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: you know what, a lot of us have been pretty 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: violent against women. What do we do? We would like 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: to grow vegetables and donate the vegetables to organization that 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: work with abuse women. And I'm like, Okay, great idea. 8 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father, 10 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: inner City Memphis. In the last part, somehow well, it 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: led to an oscar for the film about our team. 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: It's called Undefeated. I believe our country's problems are never 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: going to be solved by a bunch of fancy people 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: in nice suits using big words that nobody understands on 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: CNN and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks. 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: That's us, just you and me. 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: Looking around in our neck of the woods and saying, hey, 19 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: you know what I can help. That's what Todd Chaffey, 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 2: the voice you just heard, has done these students that 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 2: are doing this beautifully redemptive thing are prisoners. Todd is 22 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: the founding director of the Calvin Prison Initiative, a credited 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 2: bachelor's degree program that's now inside of a Michigan prison, 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 2: and one that's not only transformed their students' lives, but 25 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: most fascinating is how it's completely transformed the culture inside 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: of Michigan's prisons. I cannot wait for you to meet 27 00:01:49,920 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: Todd right after these brief messages from our general sponsors. Hey, everybody, 28 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: through a set of strange circumstances that I'm actually a 29 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: little bit embarrassed about and angry about because I didn't 30 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 2: get to handle this one. Our executive producer Alex Cortez 31 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 2: ended up hosting this particular episode, and he did a 32 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: great job, which is not surprising since he's probably conducted 33 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: two hundred interviews of his own in a former life. 34 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 2: So you'll hear about all that and why during the episode. 35 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: But to tease it a little bit, given you're hearing 36 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: my voice right now, I am alive. Let's go to Alex. 37 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 3: All right, guys, as you know, this is not Bill 38 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 3: Courney's voice. We were twenty five minutes past our recording time. Sorry, 39 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: this makes it sound super promast. I hope Bill is okay. 40 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 3: I'm guessing either at a car racket he's not, or 41 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 3: something serious has happened with his company that he's got 42 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: to deal with. So this is the first time that 43 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: I am what She actually made me super pissed about. 44 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: He walks in here in the next five minutes. But Todd, 45 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry that you're stuck here with me today. 46 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: Oh no, it's a tree, all right. 47 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 3: So chod choffee, choffee, I get it right, Yes, sir, 48 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 3: it's kind of a weird pronunciation for cio. 49 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: FFI's Italian and the ci gets a chuff. Okay, So 50 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: I often say coffee with a chu, yeah choffee. 51 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 3: His Bill will always say welcome to Memphis. 52 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you very much. 53 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: Do you like to Actually I didn't ask you on 54 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: the drive over. Did you like the arrive hotel? 55 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: I did. It's a great hotel. It's got a great 56 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: vibe about guitar player and so on the bedstand was 57 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: a little bluetooth Minie Marshall head. Yeah that I woke 58 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: up and could play my music to this one. 59 00:03:59,080 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 3: That's really cool. 60 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, great hotel. 61 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: Nice all right? Well, usually we'll start with people's childhood, Todd, 62 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 3: So tell me a little bit about yours. Where you 63 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 3: grew up, your parents, your community, how did those things 64 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: shake your life. 65 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: So I grew up in Holland, Michigan, which is on 66 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: the west side of Michigan, Tulip capital of the world. 67 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 3: People don't know what we're talking about. 68 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: So it's it's as the name implies, it was settled 69 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: by Dutch folk in the mid nineteenth century named it Holland. 70 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: And I'm half Dutch, half Italian. And so my mother 71 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: grew up there and it's right on Lake Michigan basically, 72 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: and she worked in some resorts on Lake Michigan. But 73 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: the resort owner also had resorts in New York State, 74 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: and so he said, if any of you want to 75 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: go to New York State for the summer, you can 76 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: work out at those resorts out there. So she did. 77 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: And my father, his parents first generation from Italy, were 78 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: are there in Albany, New York, and that's where they met. 79 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: So they got married. I had my two older brothers. 80 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: They moved back to Holland and that's where I was born. 81 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: In Holland, Michigan. So I grew up in Holland still 82 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: in the same house. My mom owns the same house 83 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: all these years later, and it is the Tulip capital. 84 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: When I was a kid, the Tulip Time Parade on 85 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: the Saturday which ends the Tulip Festival was the fourth 86 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: largest festival in the country. 87 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 3: Really, yeah, And how many tulips and how many people 88 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 3: come to. 89 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: The oh my word, back in the day it would 90 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: shut the city down, all these buses and everything. And 91 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: you could go to tulip farms where you get on 92 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: observation decks and there's just as far as the eye 93 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: can see tulips. 94 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: There's like one hundred. I mean, I've read it before. 95 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,239 Speaker 3: There's like hundreds of thousands of tulips. 96 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: Hundreds of thousands of tulips, and you wouldn't believe how 97 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: many varieties. And you can go to a wooden shoe 98 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: factory and they actually have a windmill that was given 99 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: by the Queen of the Netherlands back in the day. 100 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: And it's all. 101 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: Dutch, all right, So giving you some Dutch again, I 102 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 3: can't help myself, but hanging around your tie of Grand Raptors, 103 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 3: I was telling you drive it over. Yeah, I've heard 104 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 3: all the jokes like if you. 105 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: Ain't Dutch much in a little bit. 106 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 3: Uh, there's actually a really inappropriate one that I'll tell anyway. 107 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 3: Someone you know too said a dutch Man would rather 108 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: be caught cheating on his wife than home at two 109 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 3: pm not working. 110 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: Yes, it's just like that is very true. That's very true. Uh. 111 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: So what was interesting, though, is my father Italian Catholic, 112 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: my mother Dutch Dutch Reformed, Okay, and uh, you don't 113 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: put those two together, right, but they were. And so 114 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: I've reflect back on that experience and I realized that 115 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: already in my household at a very young age, there 116 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: was significant religious diversity. I mean significant at the time, 117 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: because there was some Dutch Reformed folk who didn't even 118 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: believe Catholics were Christian right, and and so my father 119 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: had to navigate that, but so did we, as the 120 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: children and so as I got were interested in the church. 121 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: In probably junior high. By then, my mom had left 122 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: the Dutch Reform tradition and now is going to a 123 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: Baptist church. And so here I am, you know, having 124 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: some Dutch Reformed influence, Catholic influence, now Baptist. And then 125 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: by the time I graduated high school. I was going 126 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: to a central a Wesleyan church that basically functioned as 127 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: a non denominational church. But I realized at the time 128 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: I didn't like it because I thought it was confusing. Yeah, 129 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: it was confusing. However, I realized now that it prepped 130 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: me for what would end up being a lifetime of 131 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: working in highly diverse contexts. Religious for sure, but then 132 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: eventually racial, class, you name it. And so it is 133 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: one of those things where I look back on my 134 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: life and see what I'm doing now. Working in a 135 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: prison is an incredibly diverse environment, and I realized, oh 136 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: my goodness, all those years actually prepped me for this. 137 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: It makes sense to me. So being in a diverse setting, 138 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: it seems normal. 139 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 3: And I want to save this more for later. But 140 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 3: I was surprised prepping last night too that you guys 141 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 3: had a Musslim man in your program and we can 142 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 3: talk about it more in a bit, So let's wait 143 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: for it. 144 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. 145 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, we're just teasing people. Heal a little bit with. 146 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: There is well, and we can tease them this way too. 147 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: So what I discover and people don't realize this. People 148 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: assume they know. 149 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 3: The Christian program. 150 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, a Christian program. But everybody's in prison, so people 151 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: have an image because of the media of who's in prison. 152 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: And I've met every type of person you can imagine 153 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: in prison, and prisons are incredibly diverse places, which good 154 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: and bad. Makes it hard. But at the same time, Uh, 155 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: these guys have to figure out a way to get along. 156 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: They have to. They don't have choices because there's bars 157 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: around them and there's walls. And they do a much 158 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: better job eventually living with diversity and getting along than 159 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: we do when we're so called free. 160 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: Any challenges in your childhood, barriers, obstacles, things you got through, 161 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,599 Speaker 3: or other lessons that parents or other people influential in 162 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: the community taught you. 163 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, So growing up Holland, Michigan, not only was the 164 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: home to the largest tulip festival in the US, but 165 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: it also had a Hinz pickle company and the Hinds 166 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: Corporation would make pickles and we could smell it. And 167 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: because of that, there were a lot of farms around 168 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: the area and so they could grow the cucumbers and 169 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: whatnot and then they've become pickles. It attracted a lot 170 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: of Latino folks from the South, mostly Texas and they'd 171 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: come up, and so growing up I had a lot 172 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: of Latino friends. However, there was real segregation and racism 173 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: when it came to that, and so the neighborhoods were 174 00:09:55,320 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: completely split, schools were split, and some of my family 175 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: looked down on my having Latino friends. And when you're 176 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: younger at the elementary school, and when you're that age, 177 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: you don't know. You just know that you like so 178 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: and so, and you have fun and you do your thing. 179 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: And I would begin to appreciate that as I got 180 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: older in terms of family members some neighbors, I realized, Wow, 181 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: they're really actually quite racist, and they support segregation. And 182 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: then when I learned about the Civil Rights movement, as 183 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: I got older. 184 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, we should say, to what ye are we talking about? 185 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: These are the nineteen seventies. And by the time I 186 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: was old enough to learn about and understand the Civil 187 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: Rights movement, I thought, oh, my goodness, I kind of 188 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: get that because that was my town. That was my town. 189 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: You just didn't mix with these Latino folks. Some of 190 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: them didn't speak English for well, and so they'd be 191 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: ridiculed for that. And there's all derogatory names and they're Catholic, 192 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: and literally I had some friends that went to the 193 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: Catholic church just blocks from my house, and I had 194 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: some family members just kind of wag their finger at 195 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: all that, and that ingrained in me, I think, a sensibility. 196 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: I didn't know to call it at this time, but justice. 197 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: What does justice entail? And again, especially because the town 198 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: was so Christian from these Dutch folk, a Dutch Reform 199 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: Dutch Christian people, and yet it was clear to me 200 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: that on just a basic level, they weren't living out 201 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: a Christian life if it means treating these other people 202 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: who are actually, you know, let's face it, making your pickles. 203 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: They're farming, They're picking all the stuff out of your 204 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: farms around you. They're doing all the manual labor that 205 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: you don't want to do. 206 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 3: Probably had something to do with tulips too, Yeah, right. 207 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: They probably did. And I remember just seeing a lot 208 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: of yard crews that were Latino and I didn't think 209 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 1: anything of it as a kid, but then I realized later, 210 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you know, they're mowing white people's lawns. 211 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: And so I began to reinterpret that experience the older 212 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: I got, especially when I got to college, as an 213 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: issue of civil rights and lo and behold throughout my career. 214 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: Then I ended up working I've ended up working in 215 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: a lot of urban areas with African American communities, and 216 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: it just made sense. It made sense because I could 217 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: easily identify Now, I couldn't identify as a white person 218 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: per se, but I could identify as a white person 219 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: about what white people do. And I had to learn 220 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: how to own that and be sensitive to that and 221 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: allow the other to be my teacher on how best 222 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: to overcome these things. 223 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 3: You talk to your parents about that, and what did 224 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 3: they say, I have, Well, like back then as a. 225 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: Kid, Yeah, I think when I got more to high school, 226 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: and those are hard conversations because you want to be 227 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: able to say, hey, Mom or Dad, I noticed you 228 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: use these derogatory names, and they kind of brush it off. Well, 229 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm not racist, I'm not I'm not being mean. I 230 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: mean I don't really mean anything by it. And so 231 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: to this day, with some family members, including my mother, 232 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: really there's a denial. There's simply a denial. And I 233 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: had to come to terms with that. And then I 234 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: think what it did for me is it made me 235 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: realize I don't want to be a denier, I just 236 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: have to own it. And as white folks, there's a 237 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: history here and if things are going to change, those 238 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: who have most of the power and most of the 239 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: position have to. 240 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: Change another big one and then let's move on. But people, 241 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 3: even people around me in Oxford who I like and 242 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 3: otherwise you know, get along with really well, say retail 243 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 3: and retarded a lot. Yes, and it just bothers the 244 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 3: hell out of me. 245 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: Yes. 246 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 3: I've interviewed enough families with kids assism and down syndrome. Yes, 247 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: and how that you know, offends them, hurts them, that's 248 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: their child. And yet people say, well, I'm not using 249 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 3: it in that way, and it's just like, why are 250 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 3: you throwing that out. 251 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: There exactly into the world and exactly And so it's 252 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: it's from the little things about why I don't mean 253 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: that word in that way. It doesn't matter what you mean, 254 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: it's offensive or to find the supporting structural problems. And 255 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: that's for me where my college and graduate training really 256 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: helped a lot for me to better understand. 257 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: And now a few messages from our gender sponsors. But first, 258 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 2: I hope you'll consider signing up to join the army 259 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: at normal folks dot us. By signing up, you'll receive 260 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: a weekly email with short episodes summaris in case you 261 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: happen to miss an episode, or if you prefer reading 262 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: abo out our incredible guests, We'll be right back. 263 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 3: So why did you go ahead in the seminary? 264 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: Yeah? So when I went to college, I uh Hope 265 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: College and Hall, Michigan Dutch Reformed school, and I thought 266 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: I was going to go into ministry after college. I 267 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: felt a calling and I haven't lost that since. But 268 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: it changed. And so when I went to college. I 269 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: was a very average student in high school. My mother 270 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: I remember my mother telling me, don't get below a 271 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: B in any of your classes. Okay, my mom never 272 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: went to college. My dad dropped out of high school. 273 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: So I thought, okay, I literally graduated high school with 274 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: a three point zero B average. 275 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 3: I should have set the bar high. 276 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, So, okay, B I got it all right. 277 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: I go to college and I was completely unprepared. And 278 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: so my first year of college I had to take 279 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: some remedia classes for no credit, just to get caught up. 280 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: And I thought, oh, my goodness, you know, is this 281 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: gonna work? And I thought, well, it's got to my 282 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: parents said you have to go to college. So I thought, 283 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: it's got to work. So I worked hard the first year, 284 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: and then I took a philosophy course in my sophomore 285 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: year of False Mystery and fell in love with it, 286 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: just fell in love with philosophy and who Knew Right 287 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: and reading Plato the whole bit. And then I had 288 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: to write papers and I did horrible on them, and 289 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: so the prof said, I think you understand this material 290 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: and then you actually enjoy it, but you can't write 291 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: to save your life. So you're gonna to work very hard, 292 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: because I'm willing to work with you if you want. 293 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: So I did, and by my junior year I was 294 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: a pretty decent writer, falling in love yet with philosophy, 295 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: falling in love with the liberal arts, and all of 296 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: a sudden people started saying you should go do a 297 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: PhD in philosophy. I said, well, I'm going to do 298 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: ministry and in a reform setting. Uh, the reformed theological 299 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: world view says your whole life can be a form 300 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: of ministry. Teaching philosophy is a type of ministry, and 301 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: I said it is, And so that put the bug 302 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: in me, and I thought well, I said, I'll tell 303 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: you what I'm gonna do, a Master of Divinity first, 304 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,479 Speaker 1: and then we'll see where that gets me, and then 305 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: if it makes sense somebody to do a PhD, I will. 306 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: So I did my Master of Divinity. Really enjoyed working 307 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: in the church. I ended up working in a lot 308 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: of non church related ministries, including a prison for a year. 309 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 3: In seminary well, tell us that story. Yeah. 310 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we were moving in the dorm in the 311 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: for the false semester and unpacking everything, and my neighbor 312 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,719 Speaker 1: right next to me the room next to me. He 313 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 1: came out and he said, do you have an internship 314 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: for your first year? And I said no, I just 315 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: got here. And this is before computers were used to 316 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: sign up for everything. And he said, well, look, I'm 317 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: signed up to be a student chaplain at the state prison. 318 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: Do you want to do that? I said, I don't know, 319 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: do I? 320 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 3: How old was he at the time. 321 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: Uh, probably twenty three ish? 322 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,959 Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, that's pretty daunting, yeah, three year old? Yeah chaplain. 323 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: I was twenty three two, And so I said, I 324 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: don't know, do I? So he told me a little 325 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: bit about it. I said, sounds kind of interesting. He goes, 326 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: why don't you just do it? I said, okay, just 327 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: like that, And so there's five of us eventually, and 328 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: we worked in a maximum security state prison for a 329 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: year a student Chaplains and back then they gave us 330 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: basically free rome in the prison, and so we would 331 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: go on to pods or units and the security was 332 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: actually quite lax. Now the guys were in their cells, 333 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: they couldn't come out, but we would just go sell 334 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: to sell and I would talk to these guys. I 335 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: would hear their stories, and they were remarkably open, and 336 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: I would hear the whole bit about why they were there. 337 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: And I'm twenty three years old and I'm talking to 338 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: murderers and the whole bit, you know. And that's when 339 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: it dawned on me. Everybody's got a story. 340 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 3: We're actually opened a share. And sorry to interrupt, I yeah. 341 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 3: Have you ever heard Ddrich Bonhoffer's line this, Yeah, I mean, 342 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 3: and this isn't the exact quote, but it's one of 343 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 3: my favorite lines. Is he says, the problem of Christians 344 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 3: is they're lonely in their sins, whereas the centers of 345 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 3: the bar have so much more fellowship with each other 346 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 3: because they share everything. 347 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: It is spot on. That's exactly what I found. I 348 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 1: was blown away by this. Guys would tell me their 349 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: stories and I remember one guy he said, I'm in 350 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: here for several murders, and he goes, I had a 351 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: horrible upbringing. However, the whole bit, and he said, I 352 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: am so angry at everything, and he said, if I 353 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 1: get a chance, I will kill an officer. He's telling 354 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: me this. We're sitting literally across from each other to 355 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: the table, and I didn't know what to say. And 356 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: at the time I thought I should have said something, 357 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: but now I realized, no, just listening is fine, that's okay. 358 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: But that's when it dawned on me that no one 359 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: sets out to go to prison. No one sets out 360 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: to become the person that, based on their worst day ever, 361 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: they're going to be known now for the rest of 362 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: their life. No one sets out to do that. There 363 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: are whole lots of things that have to happen. Yes, 364 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: choices are made, but a whole lot has to kind 365 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: of become a recipe for that. And I was very surprised, 366 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: given what we know from the media about prisons. There 367 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: were so many of guys who said, I wish I 368 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: could do it over. I wouldn't do it. I mean 369 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: I wish I could do that day over. And they 370 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: felt remorse and guilt and shame, and then they would say, 371 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: I want to do something with my life. I don't 372 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: want to be a complete waste. You know, what is 373 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: there anything I can do to give something to another person? 374 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: That blew me away. I thought, you're not supposed to 375 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: say that. Your murderers, you're this, you're that. You're horrible people, 376 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: Horrible people don't want to give, they want to take. 377 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: But they did, and then I also dawned. I mean, 378 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: there wasn't for them to do. You know, I think 379 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: as a country. 380 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: We've progressed a lot on this front. Set you have them. 381 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: Back then, there probably wasn't many programs. 382 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: There wasn't, and it was this idea of, hey, look 383 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: you committed a horrible crime. We're going to lock you 384 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: up and that's that throw away the key, We're gonna 385 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: turn our backs on you and basically all we're gonna 386 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: do is make sure you don't get out. And that 387 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: left a huge impression on me. Lo and Behold it 388 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: would be decades later that had come full circle with that. 389 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: But I would literally think about the guys I met 390 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: in that prison often, if not at first, several times 391 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: a week, a month, two there doesn't even today, I 392 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: still think about some of them because I know they're 393 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: there all these years later, decades later, they are still 394 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: doing the same things, the same routines, same cell same regrets, 395 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: same hopes, and I don't know whatever became of them personally, 396 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: but I know where they are physically, and I've moved on. 397 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 3: Have your thought about going back to that, I have. 398 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: I have. I'm actually going to be there this summer 399 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: for a conference on prisons, and I'm going to see 400 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: if somebody could actually get me in there. 401 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 3: I think, with what you've done, I hope so. 402 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: Because it was also the case that, again, I was 403 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: twenty three at the time, and many of the guys 404 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 1: I was working with were in their twenties, and so 405 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: we've kind of age wise been living parallel lives together 406 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: all these years. And again I think of I went 407 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: to grad school, I've traveled, I've been to around the world, 408 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: I've done this, I've got married, all these things, and 409 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: I thought, they're still getting up at whatever time chow 410 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: Hall wait Pitt, they're still doing that all these years later, 411 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: and I would love to be able to go back 412 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: and say, you know what, I actually didn't forget about you. 413 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: I don't want to spend too much time like doing 414 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 3: a timeline in the next day. You're sure I want 415 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 3: to get to Calvin Prison initiative, but take us through 416 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 3: how you got there personally. I mean, obviously you could 417 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 3: have gone down the ministry path or been a preacher 418 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 3: in a church or yeah, I'm sure you had several 419 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 3: options before you, but you get to Calvin Prison. 420 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: So when I graduated with my Master of Divinity, this 421 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: was nineteen ninety three, I said, all right, Lord tell 422 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: me this. I'll do whatever. I'm really open to moving around, 423 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: whatever the case. But I had good advice, as I 424 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: told you in the car, from a scholar mentor. He said, 425 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,239 Speaker 1: don't do a PhD if you don't have to. There 426 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: are lots of people who are so eager to do 427 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: a PhD. There's lines to these schools, but there's nobody 428 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: going into the inner cities, there's nobody doing these things. 429 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: You have a heart for that stuff, go do it. 430 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: So he said, the only way you do a PhD 431 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: is if you cannot satisfy that itch, and so I 432 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: said okay. So I spent seven years after my MDV 433 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: do an inner city ministry. I was a co pastor 434 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: of an urban church in Detroit called Martin King Junior Church. 435 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: My co pastor was African American. I was the only 436 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: white person basically in the congregation. 437 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 3: How was that wild? 438 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: Just wild? Because it got to the point where we 439 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: never forgot who's white, who's black. But at the same 440 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: time we had become a community. And so I thought 441 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: it was such a privilege that they allowed me to 442 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: preach on Sundays there because I thought, you know, what 443 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: do I have to say exactly to you? And they 444 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: conversely said, of course you have a lot to offer. 445 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: We all do. And so I was there almost a 446 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 1: year and I got to the point where they were 447 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: looking for a permanent pastor and they had asked if 448 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to do it, and I came real close 449 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: saying yes. And I realize the reason I would say 450 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: yes to a church at that point was because it 451 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: was urban. It was I had issues of race, issues 452 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: of class, the whole bit in Detroit, and that was 453 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: ringing bells now for me that I recognized the only 454 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,959 Speaker 1: thing that stopped me is I also was teaching at 455 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: a Jesuit high school. I was teaching Catholic theology of 456 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: all things full circle who so University of Detroit Jesuit 457 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: High School, and there I was now raised in Hall, Michigan, 458 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: but teaching at a Catholic high school. Protestant but teaching 459 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: Catholic theologyithmination. And they hired me as the token Protestant 460 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: because they said about a third of their student body 461 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: were Baptist Protestants from Detroit, and we want to have 462 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: a Protestant in our religion department. 463 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 3: So I said, sure, but teaching Catholic theology, but. 464 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: Teaching Catholic theology. And they said, as long as you 465 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: teach Catholic theology the way it should be taught. After that, 466 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: after it's criticism, that's fine on me. Jesuits can do this, right, 467 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: So I said, okay. I loved the classroom so much 468 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: that I wasn't prepared to leave it. And that's when 469 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: I realized my mentor's words are coming back. If you 470 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: just can't shake this thing, then maybe you can't shake it. 471 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: So that's when I realized, is there a way I 472 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: could go on to do graduate work? Do a PhD. 473 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: But now take all these experiences and package them together 474 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: and not become just a scholar in the library, but 475 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: become the sort of theologian who's constantly looking out the 476 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: window at the world and saying, as Christians, as the church, 477 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: all right, what are we going to do? And so 478 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: I said, if I can do that, if I can 479 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: stay committed to that, then I'll go. So I went 480 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: back and did a PhD in systematic theology, but I 481 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: did it on a political theology with the intent of 482 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: all right, how do I help the Church change the world? 483 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: And that is what was affirmed by my advisors and 484 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: the people around me. So I had a really good 485 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: experience in my doctoral program, and then through a series 486 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: of you know, hey, look at this school, look at 487 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: that school, I got a call one day Calvin College 488 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: done is looking for somebody to do a ministry studies department. 489 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: You're interested, And I said, yeah, never thought i'd go 490 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: back to West Michigan. Now is in the real thicket 491 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: Dutch reform stuff with Calvin. But I went back and 492 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: the department allowed me to juggle all these experiences with 493 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: now students and saying, hey, if you have this experience, 494 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: this experience, this experience. Guess what God can use that? 495 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,479 Speaker 1: And we're going to figure out a way to connect dots. 496 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: And so I got to work with students who engineers, 497 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: high school teachers, business people and ask, all right, what 498 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: are you going to do in this career that is 499 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: distinct in terms of your doing it in such a 500 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: way that you're tilting it towards the Kingdom of God? 501 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 3: If you know about it, I'd love for you to 502 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,199 Speaker 3: go into it more. But John Perkins's Beloved Community and 503 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 3: also Martin Luther King's street Sweeper speech. And I'm sure 504 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 3: you know both of those at a way deeper level 505 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 3: than I do, but I don't think we've actually talked 506 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 3: about them on the podcast. 507 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: Well that's just it. So I've actually taught that. So 508 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: Charles Marsh wrote this wonderful book. He's a prophe at 509 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: University of Virginia. He cut his teeth on Bonhoeffer. But 510 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: he's a good friend of John Perkins. And he wrote 511 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: a book called The Blood Community, and he uses Martin 512 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: Luther King Juniors as the kind of reference point, and 513 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: he has a whole chapter there on John Perkins. And 514 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: we actually started a Perkins program at Calvin. 515 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 3: And tell people what the bloved community is. I still 516 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 3: don't even know myself enough about Perkins's background. I mean, 517 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: bring us more in there. 518 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, So for Perkins, the bloved community is this idea 519 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: that we're called to love our neighbors, but we don't 520 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: know who our neighbors are until we move into their neighborhood. 521 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: And so you have to literally be willing to change 522 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: your proximity. So he said, especially and Perkins's African American, 523 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: and he said, especially white people. They come in as 524 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: the great White Hope. They kind of implement programs, they 525 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: throw money at problems, They maybe even do like a 526 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: spring break week trip, and they go home. And he 527 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: actually would joke about this with the ministry he had 528 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: in Jackson, Mississippi. He would say, we would look at 529 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: our buildings and we would save the roughest looking part 530 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: of a building for those spring break trips because we 531 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: had to give them something to do and they had 532 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: to complete something. So they had to be able to 533 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: paint all four walls and they could go home thinking 534 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: they did something. And he said, but it was kind 535 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: of a joke, right. So he always argued a beloved 536 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: community from John's Gospel via Martin Luther King Junior is 537 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: really about proximity. It's truly about becoming neighbors, shoulder to shoulder, 538 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: and for those with the power, it's about going in 539 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: becoming a neighbor and not saying this is what your 540 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: needs are, but saying, what are your needs? Maybe I 541 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: don't know? And that made so much sense to me 542 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: when the first time I started reading Perkins and King 543 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: giving my experiences all the way back to elementary school 544 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: with Latino friends and people talking about them in a 545 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: way that just that exposed them to say, you don't 546 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: even know who these people are. You have no idea 547 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: I go to school with them shoulder to shoulder. That's 548 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: not who they are. And finally I could put words 549 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: to that. And so that's when I realized, if you're 550 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: not willing to put your body in certain spaces, your 551 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: words ring hollow. 552 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: And the other part, like, if you're an engineer, how 553 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 3: do you show up in the marketplace? Yes, always remind me, 554 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 3: I mean I love If that people haven't seen it, 555 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 3: you really need to go on YouTube and watch the 556 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 3: street sweeper speech, even just the ninety seconds of it. 557 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 3: If it's your lot to be a street sweeper, sweep 558 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 3: streets like Michaelangelo painted pictures. Yes, it's some of the 559 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: most beautiful lines I've ever come. 560 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: And that resonates with John Calvin, right, who's the spine 561 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: behind all these reform traditions, including the Dutch reform tradition 562 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: that he kind of rethought, reimagined what the word vocation 563 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: meant in the sixteen seventeenth centuries, where back then in 564 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: the medieval Catholic Church, vocation was reserved for priests and 565 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,479 Speaker 1: nuns and brothers. The rest of us we didn't have vocation. 566 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: We worked. And what was the significance of your work? Well, 567 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: you ate, you were able to provide shelter for yourself. 568 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: You worked, and it was toiled. And was there anything 569 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: good about work? Not so much. Luther Calvin looked at 570 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: and said, wait a minute. God gave us the ability 571 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: to create. God gave us the ability to till the ground. 572 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: God gave us the ability to sweep a street. 573 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 3: All right, let's pause for a second. Oh hey, we'll 574 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 3: be right back. All right, Well, sorry, guys, it's just 575 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 3: finally heard from Bill and he had a fire at 576 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 3: the lumber yard last night, and I guess was there 577 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 3: until four fifteen. A. Yeah, that sucks, but I'm glad 578 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 3: he's alive. Yeah, we're going to do with this podcast. 579 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: Yeah he gets a pass. 580 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 3: So sorry Tom. All right, exiderrupted your thought? Is there 581 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 3: any more you wanted to share there about Calvin and Work? 582 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: Well, just this idea that uh yeah, h sweeping a 583 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: street can bring glory to God. And I will add 584 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: this that has become a key point working with incarcerated 585 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: students because when we started the program, if you're seventeen 586 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: eighteen years old and you get a natural life sentence, 587 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,239 Speaker 1: a life with no proll in that seventeen eighteen year 588 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: old kid's mind, life is over. I have no life. 589 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: And so all they talk about is you have to 590 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: learn how to do time, and don't let time do you. 591 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: So they come up with all these little routines. Groundhog day, 592 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: every day, same routine. I don't care if it's Christmas, 593 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: I don't care what it is. You know, they go 594 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: to the waight pit, they do this, they do that, 595 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: and they do it every single day, and they do 596 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: it for years and then decades, and that is their 597 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: life and their minds. And so when we step in 598 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: and say, guess what your life has tremendous meaning and 599 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: you're important. They go, what And then we say you 600 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: have a calling and they're like, no, I don't. They're like, no, 601 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: you really do. In fact, your daily activities bring can 602 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: bring joy to God. And here's how we're gonna do this. 603 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about this and you literally see them 604 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: open up and all of a sudden, their life and 605 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: its daily routines have meaning. And then we can work 606 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: to say you don't have to just sweep a floor 607 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: though either. Now we're gonna train you to be a 608 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: pure mentor training you to be an academic tutor for 609 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: someone who's trying to get a ged. Your life can 610 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: have real purpose and impact. And then they start saying, 611 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, even though I'm locked up, I'm not dead. 612 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: I'm alive, and I can live a meaningful life even 613 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: if it isn't cars rated. 614 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 3: There's a similar I think you guys have at least 615 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 3: one acting academy in the Grand Rapids area. Yes, and 616 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 3: they have a similar way of talking to students of 617 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 3: saying you have a unique calling that can change the world. Yes, 618 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 3: and it could be I mean, you don't need to 619 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 3: be the president to run a company. You can have 620 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 3: a dry cleaner, as the example the founder uses, and 621 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 3: you can have five people work for you. Yes, and 622 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 3: a thousand people show up at your funeral. Yes, and 623 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 3: you change the world. 624 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: That's just that's it. 625 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 3: And there's nobody talking to students that way. There's nobody 626 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 3: talking to prisoners that way. And it's really a beautiful 627 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 3: perspective on life that most of our culture is missing. 628 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely. And this is where in the prison environment. This 629 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: is where we say, because everyone wants prison reform. I 630 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: don't know anybody who doesn't want prison reform. 631 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 3: Right. 632 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: You talk to a governor prison reform, You talk to 633 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: state politicians' prison reform, you talk to people work in prison. 634 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: Oh sure it could be better, of course it could. 635 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: You talk to prisoners prison reform. And we're all looking 636 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: to the government to do it. And I'm saying, it's 637 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: right under our nose. It's all these people right here 638 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: who are locked up. You are the ones, as we 639 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 1: say at Calvin, you become an agent of change and 640 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: you're the ones who are going to reform this thing. 641 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: And so when we started our program, our prison was 642 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: called Gladiator School. It was one of the most violent 643 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: prisons in the state. They would send guys young there, 644 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: as they said, to learn how to jail, to learn 645 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 1: how to do prison. So they had send him to 646 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: gladiator school. Yeah, it's very intentional. They would send him 647 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: the worst place. After about four years, I asked the 648 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: warden he was doing this end of year report. I said, 649 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: how are things here? Said, normally we would have anywhere 650 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: from one hundred and twenty five to one hundred and 651 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: fifty major violent incidents a year. It's okay, he goes, 652 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: we had eight this year. Eight. It got one administrator 653 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: there to say, we've gone from candy Land, or from 654 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: a gladiator school to Candyland. 655 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 3: All right, as Bill will say, you're jumping ahead too much. 656 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 3: Let's let's get there. That is a good yea. I 657 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 3: actually hate the game candy Land. Yeah, it's all luck. 658 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 3: I mean a. 659 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: Candyland. This is agent's a change candy Land. 660 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 3: All right. Calvin Prison Initiative, Yeah, wasn't your idea, No, 661 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,240 Speaker 3: so tell us approach. 662 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't even Calvin's idea. Calvin Seminary. So that's 663 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: where it started. A donor gave some money to Calvin 664 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: Seminary and said, hey, you need to send some of 665 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: your prosts down do Angola Prison in Louisiana. Uh. He said, 666 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: I'm connected with that place, and I've seen tremendous transformation 667 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: at that prison, and we I think it's by way 668 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: of the seminary program they have there. So the seminary, 669 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: Calvin Seminary sat on that money for two years, didn't 670 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: do anything. 671 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 3: Is this the donor we were talking about in the 672 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 3: car on the way down. 673 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:14,439 Speaker 1: No another one. And the donor eventually asked. He goes, hey, 674 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: how is that trip to Angola? And the then president said, yeah, 675 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: it didn't happen. Wrong answer, wrong answer, because the donor said, well, 676 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: if you're not going to spend it, give it back, 677 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: and the president said, I'll have him on a plane 678 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: right now. So he went to a guy, professor of preaching, 679 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: John Rotman, and said, I need you to go on 680 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: to Angola Prison. He goes, I don't want to go 681 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: to a prison, and they explained the situation and he said, right, 682 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: I'll go. So they sent a few of them down 683 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: there and it was life transforming. They all of a 684 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: sudden were at this place that supposedly is a maximum 685 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: security prison sixty two hundred inmates, the largest penitentiary in 686 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: the country. Wow. At back in the eighties it was 687 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: called the most violent prison in America and you could 688 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: go around the place. Then now with his trip, no violence, prisoners, 689 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: no custing, no swearing, nothing like that in a prison, 690 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: which is crazy. And they came back. 691 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,959 Speaker 3: And said, my word, really swear. 692 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: There was a rule. The warden made a rule no swearing, okay, 693 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: and wherever you went, you went here swearing nothing. And 694 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: that's not prison. And if a warden could pull that 695 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: off with basically over six thousand people, like, what happened? 696 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: How do you do that? So I've been there several times. 697 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: I've never heard swearing. 698 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 3: So who's the warden and how did he do it? 699 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: Bro Kine was there at the time he came. He 700 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 1: got there in nineteen ninety five. The prison was such 701 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: a mess that the governor tapped him and said, I 702 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: need you go change this place. 703 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 3: And did you tell me before? He was an English teacher, 704 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 3: high school teacher, So how did the governor decide he had? 705 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: Bro Kane had political aspirations and so he's a known 706 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: quantity and so I guess maybe the governor's testing him. 707 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: I don't know. But he put him in there, and 708 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: Cain said, I didn't know what to do other than 709 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: as a teacher educate, and he said, I just assumed 710 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: that education was going to be somehow key to all this. 711 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: Caine's a Christian with the Southern Baptist Church, and so 712 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: he got New Orleans Baptist Seminary to come in and 713 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: offer courses. He started New Orleans Baptist Seminary and they 714 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: just started an MDiv program basically, and so they started 715 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: noticing really positive results from this, and they kept it up. 716 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:24,919 Speaker 1: They kept it up. Now at the time, they also 717 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: had about thirty prisoner led churches in Angolo, and that's 718 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: a long tradition there, goes way back to eighteen hundreds, 719 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: and they were training these guys then to give him 720 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: formal training to be pastors, social pastors, evangelis of the 721 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: whole bit. 722 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,439 Speaker 3: So that was going on before Burl got there. 723 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: The churches were yah and then he refused it with these, 724 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: you know, really rich resources, not from a seminary, and 725 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: again had extremely positive results. And that went on and 726 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,479 Speaker 1: after about fifteen years, violence dropped eighty five percent there. 727 00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: So everyone's happy and Kane pulled it off. So that's 728 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 1: what the Calvin Seminary Profits are sure. 729 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 3: There is one story from that I remember that shocked me. 730 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 3: They get there and feel free to rupt me if 731 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 3: you know it. Yeah, they see the prisoners like driving 732 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 3: around cars like. 733 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: They're driving cars. They're out on these little ponds with 734 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: boats fishing. Uh. There's twelve guys who live in a 735 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: house by themselves. Guys have cell phones, Guys have keys 736 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: to the tool sheds. Uh. They become your instructor. That day. 737 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 1: I remember going to the automotive program. I'm talking to guys, 738 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: got the automotive share down the whole bit, and he's 739 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: running the thing and I said, oh, so what do 740 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 1: you do. Oh, I teach guys this. I teach him that. 741 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: And he said, you know, I've just learned that. You know, 742 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,720 Speaker 1: sometimes they need to help at night or on the weekends, 743 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: and I'm willing to do that. And I said, well, 744 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: when do you go home? And he says, what do 745 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 1: you mean go home? I'm a prisoner. I got a 746 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: life sentence. But he was in charge of the whole program. 747 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: There wasn't an officer in the place, and he oversaw 748 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 1: all the tools and so there was a huge amount 749 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: of trust given to these guys and they lived up 750 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: to it, not down. And so yeah, they changed. And 751 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: that's when these prosts from Calvin said, wait a minute, 752 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 1: if that can happen here, could it happen in Michigan. 753 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: So that's how it started. And then they contacted this 754 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: prison and Ionia Michigan Richard Hanlin Prison where we are, 755 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: and they just said, hey, we'd like to offer a 756 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: seminary course. It took a while for the department and 757 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,439 Speaker 1: the prison to kick their heads around this why would 758 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: you want to do this? But that's how it started 759 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven. And then of course the students are 760 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: all doing great and they're like, hey, we want to 761 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: earn a degree. 762 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 3: Are you the director? 763 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, but not in twenty eleven. We it was 764 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: a non program, if you will, just offering courses. Starting 765 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, the students demanded a degree. The seminary said, well, 766 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: we're a seminary, we're a graduate school. You have to 767 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,720 Speaker 1: first earn an undergraduate degree. So that's when Calvin Summary 768 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: went to Calvin College. They tapped me and said, would 769 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: you help us navigate the college if we were to 770 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,320 Speaker 1: put a program together. So we spent a year working 771 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: together on a proposal. 772 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 3: And this is kind of funny. I think I got 773 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 3: this right, and not to shame your college, but they 774 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 3: originally said no, got them to say yes, it's pretty funny. 775 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. So we went to student our faculty senate, made 776 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: the proposal and the senate voted it down. We're like, 777 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: this is a spot onto the mission of these institutions. 778 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 1: What are you doing? And so we said fine. So 779 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,839 Speaker 1: we went out to other colleges the seminary and said, hey, 780 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: do you want to do this and they said yes. 781 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: So back to Calvin College and said fine, if you're 782 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 1: not going to do it, we're going to go to 783 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 1: the Christian University down the street. Literally, And then all 784 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was like wait a minute, wait, 785 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 1: don't run away. And then we did another proposal and 786 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: they accepted it, and then that's when they asked me 787 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,800 Speaker 1: to be the director. So I started June one, twenty fifteen. 788 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: Now we had a program. Then we got accredited. We 789 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: offered a BA with a major in faith and community leadership, 790 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,240 Speaker 1: and after about a year or two, the guys kept saying, 791 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: you know what we really need are social work classes. 792 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: He said, oh, that makes sense, So we put a 793 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:16,720 Speaker 1: social work minor. 794 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 3: Why if they're never going to get out of the prison. 795 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: Yeah right, No, I know you are right, and that 796 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: this is the Perkins move. So I remember saying, I'm 797 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: not going to assume I know what you need to 798 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: become a moral and spiritual leader inside. I don't know. 799 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: You tell me. And that's when they said we need 800 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: social work. They said, that's we're gonna do then, so 801 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:40,840 Speaker 1: we had a social work miner. 802 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 3: What was behind their thinking of why they wanted it? 803 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: So they recognize that most problems that men have in 804 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 1: prison are from maladaptive social behavior, whether it's just functional families, homes, 805 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 1: running with the wrong crowd making. So we kind of 806 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: had to redo these things. So they needed to know 807 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: about family systems, They needed to know about issues of 808 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 1: class and race. They needed to know these things because 809 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 1: the better understand trauma informed mentoring. And so the social 810 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: work degree is spot on. It really is the degree 811 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: that you get the most out of in terms of 812 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: serving a prison community. And they then there's a social 813 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: work class on the helping interview, on the what helping interview? 814 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: How to interview someone who has needs but that person 815 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: may not know how to express them well, and so 816 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,359 Speaker 1: you interview and you help them be able to identify 817 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: and name what it is they need. Again the Perkins 818 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: thing right, and so it was hugely successful. It got 819 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: to the point where we wanted to have a double 820 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: major faith in community leadership and then a social work major, 821 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: but the social work major comes with a four hundred 822 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: hour internship, and we just finally said, we don't think 823 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: we can pull that off. There. We have a human 824 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,319 Speaker 1: services major, which is like a social work major without 825 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: the internship. So they double major, they'll end up with 826 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 1: a BA in five years. And much of the shape 827 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: now of the program has really been by way of 828 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:16,720 Speaker 1: our students. 829 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 3: And just to put a finer point of the sol 830 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 3: short part, what percentage of the participants in the program 831 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 3: will never get out of prison, and then there's a 832 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 3: percentage that do. But either way they can serve their 833 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 3: fellow man, either in prison or out of it. 834 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: That's right. When we started the program formally, we learned 835 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: that in Michigan at the time, this has changed. At 836 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 1: the time, the Department of Corrections would not offer programming 837 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: to someone doing a natural life sentence or a sentence 838 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,279 Speaker 1: a life sentence without parole. They literally said, we're not 839 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 1: invested in you because you're gonna die in prison. So 840 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 1: they're thinking, was the only way we invest in a 841 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 1: prisoner is if we know he's going to get out 842 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: and we're doing something so we won't come back. I 843 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: get that that's important, but then you have this population 844 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,480 Speaker 1: of men whose lives are in the department's minds kind 845 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,399 Speaker 1: of over So we said, we can't do that, And 846 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: we reasoned, these are the guys who own the culture. 847 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: They're there, they're there for decades. They're the ones who 848 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,919 Speaker 1: can set the culture. Why not empower them, give them 849 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: resources because they also will have a positive influence on 850 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,399 Speaker 1: the guys who get out, and so you win win. 851 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,320 Speaker 1: It's a win win. So we always said two thirds 852 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: of our incoming class each year will be guys with 853 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:42,320 Speaker 1: life sentences, the other third with long sentences. So at first, 854 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: the Angola model is more about we are going to 855 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: raise up leaders who, as far as we can tell, 856 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 1: are going to die in prison. But they're the ones 857 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: who are going to transform prisons. They're the ones who 858 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,120 Speaker 1: are going to live these lives driven by a sense 859 00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:01,320 Speaker 1: of lolication. Really, they're the one They're the They're the engine. 860 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 1: They're the engine. 861 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,239 Speaker 2: And that concludes part one of what was supposed to 862 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,439 Speaker 2: be my conversation with Todd Choffe and ended up being 863 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 2: Alex's conversation with Todd. But nevertheless, you don't want to 864 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,239 Speaker 2: miss part two that's now available to listen to. We're 865 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 2: about to dive deep into Calvin Prison initiative and Alex 866 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 2: does a great job with it, so keep listening. Together, guys, 867 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,839 Speaker 2: we can change this country, but it starts with you. 868 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:32,359 Speaker 2: I'll see in Part two.