WEBVTT - VICE Gold Rings + Provocative Media Things 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.880 I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:05.720 going to have to start making better content. I think 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.240 we're gonna be talking about this for a long time. 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:10.280 When you program for everyone, you program for no one. 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:12.360 I think it's that we're purpose driven platform, like we're 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.720 trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.479 happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:24.600 really is? What's up? I'm Laura Coarntia and I'm Alexa Kristen. 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.400 Welcome back to Atlandia episode seventeen. Did you like that 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.400 at Landia? It was very nice. It's like October. It 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:35.240 felt very Halloween, Halloween. You like, yeah, that's good. Um, 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.600 So we're not going to get into our usual preamble today. 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:41.839 It was advertising week last week. Yeah, And I think 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.000 if you want to know our thoughts and opinions, you 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:48.440 can go over to Atlandia podcast on Twitter. A lot 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.239 of common themes, what's the future of the agency look like, 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:57.160 big data, data, data, data, data, conversations around data. One 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.000 of the funniest things I saw was UM a twee 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.960 about artificial intelligence and somebody said, I will give somebody 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:09.479 five bucks. I AI actually means UM, which is super 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.319 indicative of where our industry is. That so we have 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:14.680 a lot of thoughts on Advertising Week, we have a 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.240 lot of thoughts on industry events in general, but we're 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.760 like panels, like, yeah, we're so bored with some of them. Actually, 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:22.480 can I just say one thing. I was impressed with 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.520 the I A B. They did very small UM what 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.240 they were calling leadership dialogues UM, And I got to 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:34.720 catch John Martin, who's the CEO of Turner Broadcasting. It 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.480 was a really honest, great conversation. There may have been 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.920 maybe fifty people in the room and we were sitting 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.160 with him. And I think that that model, the format, 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.320 the physical format of it was really um refreshing. I 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:51.080 give Randall Rothenberg and all the folks over at the 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.320 IB big props on that because it was just a 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.440 refreshing format. And I actually felt like I got to 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.320 know John a little bit, if I can call him that, 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.560 Mr Martin. So it's good because the concept of panel 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.280 is just sometimes speaking to an empty room or it's 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.640 really tough. Advertising week, A lot of it takes place 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:08.040 in the middle of time square and just happened to 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:12.480 be like ninety seven degrees last week. UM, which makes 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:14.240 for a lot of fun and dodging people to get 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.080 to your panel and your sweating and your bronze are running, 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.440 or maybe that was just me, but I think you know, 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.360 ultimately and a lot of people were talking about the 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.079 idea of moving to that sort of intimate format and 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:27.800 I got the opportunity to speak on a panel UM 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.960 with for Notch and UM. They did a gorgeous job 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.760 for their connach Felt connach k and otc H, a 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:39.000 measurement company, and Ono Ganska, their CEO, did a beautiful 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.560 job putting together both her super Normal awards, complimented with 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.280 a panel discussion in an intimate theater UM, which was 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.120 really cool and different. It was nice to get out 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.120 of UM Times Square. So I think we're gonna come back. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.639 We're gonna come back with some ideas, and we're even 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:57.600 thinking about some things for Atlantia, So you know, I 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.799 r L Anyway, with that said, I've got Ben Deats 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.079 coming in from Vice UM. He is the s VP 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.320 of Sales Advice and we have a really I think 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.760 exciting conversation kind of teat up. So hope you enjoy 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:25.080 it all. We'll be right back. What's up at Landia. 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:29.200 We're back with vices. Ben deats Hi, Ben deats Hi, 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.120 how are you? Ben is the s VP of sales 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:36.400 at Vice. Welcome Ben, Thank you. So the story of you. 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.360 You just told us that you were like employee numbers six. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:42.480 What I always tell people is when I got device, 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:44.600 I was one of twelve people in the office, and 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.040 I'm now one of here in New York. Um, in 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:52.200 terms of global seniority, there are fifteen or so people 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.440 who have been with the company longer than I. But 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.880 you know that doesn't translate anything other than just like 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.200 showing up at the office for the most con INU 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:02.000 this number of days. So how many years is that? 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.040 You know? It's so funny when people talk about new media. 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.680 By the way, on that note, UM sometimes say Advice 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:13.400 and I'm like, dude, Vice has been around since like 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.320 I don't know, the early nineties, and I remember reading 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:21.520 Vice and like early two thousand's saying Okay, this is cool, 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:23.320 this is new. I can get into this. And I 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.479 was a big indie music fan, and I you know, 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:28.839 bordered in the punk world and all the stuff, and 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.720 I loved the things you guys were talking about. At 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.159 that point, it was a lot of like music culture, 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.800 you know, content, and now you guys have evolved into 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:43.039 you know, a full blown media company and news organization. Yeah. 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.039 What I often tell people is that I picked up 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:46.960 Vice for the first time as a twenty three year 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.039 old marketing assistant at a record label on a skateboard literally, 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:52.839 and I'm now the father of two with a mortgage 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.240 and you know, a whole adult life. Vices continued to 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:59.440 be a consistent source of culture and of news for 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.599 me throughout out. That has changed from being super music related, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:04.480 you know when I worked in the music business, to 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.159 being much more concerned about now macro issues in the world. 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:10.599 And I think it's a testament to the vision of 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:12.920 the guys in the first place, that they set up 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:14.960 a business that would be able to grow with audience 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:18.080 while at the same time bringing new audiences in through 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.120 exploring other topics that we've never thought of. So, if 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:25.000 if you were to channel Shane Smith today, would the 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:29.520 Shane Smith vision for vice Um have deviated from its 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:34.000 original intent today as opposed to well, I think there's 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.640 two things, or would I believe that the guys were 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:39.480 so prescient in setting up in the first place. This 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:44.120 is Shane and Serrouge, you know, bolstered by guys like 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.920 Eddie Muretty who's our our chief content officer and the 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.120 president of Iceland, and Eric Lavoix, who is the publisher 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.719 for many years and now runs b D for our 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:57.359 our agency group. Um, those guys wanted to tell stories 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.479 to their friends in the voice that they spoke to 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.440 their friends in, and they wanted to just make sure 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:04.520 that the content was available wherever their friends wanted to 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:07.520 consume it. So I don't think there's ever really been 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.760 a pivot in terms of changing those two axioms. And 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:12.920 then beyond that, Shane is I don't know if you've 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:14.919 ever spent any time with him, but he is a 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:19.280 huge personality and somebody that believes that he can uh 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.160 take on the world and should because there's a better 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.039 way to do it than the world, you know, maybe 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.000 operating with. So I don't think it's been there have 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.240 been pivots. I think it's been evolution throughout as we've 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.840 gotten older, as we've gotten more successful, as we've come 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.400 to the sense that possibility was more than possibility, it 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.200 was achievable and it was out our grasp, and then 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:42.680 that it was responsibility, which is kind of how we 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:44.919 feel now. So you said something about Vice kind of 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.520 having grown up, kind of gotten into its maturation years. However, 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.200 many now we're in a decade too. Um. Three three 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.479 of the business. If you as the head of sales, 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:59.520 what are some of the ill kind of conceived notions 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.360 about what Vice was as opposed to where it is now? 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:04.560 And if you're kind of walking in too to meet 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:06.280 with Alexa and I today, what would be sort of 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.920 the elevator pitch for what the brand stands for today's culture. Well, look, 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.520 I think to answer the misconceptions thing first, the primary 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:15.360 misconception that we have struggled with over the course of 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.840 time is that we are in it to be provocative 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.360 or to be controversial in any way, shape or form. 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.280 The fact of the matter is that we are not provocateurs. 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:29.240 We are, we hope, reporters of the vernacular and and 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:34.560 the culture of young people. UM. But it's hard because 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.760 sometimes young people speak in terms that are not you know, 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:43.440 the most palatable too big companies, and sometimes because that 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.120 reporting is unvarnished and you know, is very different than 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.480 what people are used to receiving. UM. So that's the 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.960 bit that we struggle with the bit that I think 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.920 we try to cast ourselves as now is a the 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.760 most important because of the bread the stories that we 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.640 cover and the inclusivity of our point of view, and 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.960 be the most influential in that we are willing to 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.560 take on forms and formats that nobody else uses or 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:15.960 does to driving the media landscape forward for young people especially, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.240 but hopefully increasingly for you know, audiences generally. What does 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:20.960 that look like, because I think a lot of people 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.240 are like, yeah, VR, oh yeah, podcasting, oh yeah, this 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.720 and that and that, But it's not necessarily those types 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:29.720 of formats that you're talking about. No. I mean, look, 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.559 I think it's the When we launched the nightly news 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.960 show on HBO, Josh Tarangol, who came over from Bloomberg 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.160 to run that and has a great news background and 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.600 ironically as a it was an inspiration of mine in college, 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.360 he just said, basically, look, if we want to transform 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.920 the nightly news show, let's get rid of the sacred 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.280 elements of it. Um. And I'm putting words in Josh's 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:53.040 mouth here, of course, but it's like, get rid of 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.400 the host, get rid of the voice of God, have 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.520 it be uh, an experience that flows the way that 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.920 content flows through your social feeds or through the modern 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.600 content feeds, and that's going to be demonstrably different than 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:06.520 anything else in the news space, and it's going to 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.600 be more in tune with the way our audience wants 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.920 to consume. And I had a really fascinating meeting the 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.480 other day with some of the news producers who pointed 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.400 out one of them came from radio and she's been 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.600 in charge of producing a lot of segments that are 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.120 animated because she's like, look, there are things you can 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.680 do in the audio medium that you can't do with 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:27.640 film medium, but I can then animate them and I 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.840 can bring all of the depth of film and insight, sound, 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.280 emotion to them without changing the fundamentals of you know, 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.960 the moment. Yeah, the story. One of the things that 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.840 an Alexa and I for years have been sort of 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.559 frustrated with the way people say TV has to fit 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:44.480 into the confines of linear and so you know, Live 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:46.840 allows us to challenge some of that. But you guys 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.439 have presumably taken on what I've enjoyed. I think we've 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.120 actually talked about it on the show quite a bit. 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:56.080 Is about creating stickiness in formats that don't necessarily lend 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.280 themselves to innovation. And one of the things that I appreciate, 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:01.120 and I think a points i'd like pulled us to 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.960 the front of your presentation was it was the first 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:08.240 time I had heard somebody talk about using commercial pods 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:12.720 or breaks in shows to create more sticky content. And 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:14.520 I don't even think you refer to them, Commercius. I 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.880 think you say interstitials and so kind of challenge. And 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.240 I know that we talked. We talked about this a 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:23.439 couple of years ago, and I was like eight hundred 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.840 months pregnant. We were talking about what Yeah, it was 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.160 eight hundred months pregnant, and it was hotter than hell, 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.200 and it was in Brooklyn. You guys maybe walk up 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.840 a lot of that was it? Because it was before 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.120 the elevator was done. We talked about this and it 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:41.559 was the major differentiator than any other conversation I had 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.559 had at the time. And we were sitting down and 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.320 I had just been in like China like five months before, 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.720 talking to some of your counterparts Advice China and talking 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.920 about how, um, you had no rules that I mean 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:56.760 to me, it was that simple, right, It was like 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.640 we don't have rules in terms of like thirty second 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.480 time limits. We don't have We're not locked into something 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.680 badcast or thirty minute exactly the broadcasting Laura and I 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.040 were like, yes, this is what we're talking about, and 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.199 I think it's cool, Like there's a very small group 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.680 of people today that we can talk to or put 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.840 into this sort of club that is taking the format 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.960 of linear or just broadcast television and saying why does 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.280 it have to exist in thirty or sixty minute programs? 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.200 Why can't be a bunch of twelve minute, thirty second 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:31.040 to you know whatever, minute pieces strung together to tell 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.160 great stories. So can you talk about sort of where 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:36.800 the inspiration of that has gone post HBO and into 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.600 the Iceland world. Yeah, I mean, I think the interesting 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:42.680 thing is to go way back actually, and I don't 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:45.320 know if either of you saw the episode of Epically Later, 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.520 which is the our long standing, like since literally two 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.040 thousand seven skateboard show, But we just brought us to 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.079 Iceland and we did an episode on Spike Jones, who 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:56.760 is of course the co president of the network, and 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:01.200 then also one of our creative eminence is from back 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.240 in the day and a partner and a friend and 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.040 somebody who kind of look like Spike Jones. Noone never 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.560 tell you that. Yeah, I've heard it once, it's twice. 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:14.240 I take it as an incredible, incredible commum. Spikes a 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:18.040 very handsome and very life young man. Um. But if 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.679 you go back to the culture that Spike came out of, 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.160 the d I y culture, that Shaneon Serrouch came out of, 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.800 the filmmaking culture, that Eddie came out of, what I 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.800 think you find is this common um, you know, approach 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:35.920 to storytelling, which is very iterative, which is not terribly 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.839 concerned with format um, but is more concerned with experimentation 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.120 and fun, and which is kind of always on right. 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.040 And so when you come out of those worlds, the 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.960 idea of this super segmented experience of linear or of 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.160 any medium feels a little stunted, right. And And even 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:56.720 if I think about skateboard magazines when I was a kid, 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.800 and I grew up reading them and looking at Spikes photos, 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:01.760 and we've got to know each other a little bit 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.120 over the course time, it's like the ads were content, 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:10.200 the content was ads. It was all the same experience. 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.280 It was all seamless. And I think that what what 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.679 they wanted to create with Iceland was just that experience 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:21.360 of constant voice and um an interest that extended through 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.880 the advertising and extended through the content went back into 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.680 the advertising. Because the truth matter is brands Cannon should 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.319 operate in in every media platform so long as they're 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.959 adding value and as so long as they're they make sense, 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.760 they're right. Like I don't read Vogue for the articles 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:38.920 in Vogue. I read Vogue for the ads. And that's 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.559 not because I work in sales, it's because I want 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.720 or in media. It's because those ads are giving me 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.400 the full spectrum of viewpoints, not just what an editor 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.280 has picked out for me. To know. It's a really 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.960 really interesting point to Yeah, like the fact that it's 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.240 not what the editor has curated. It's kind of this 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:02.040 bifocal kind of intersection of culture and content. And I 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.280 guess what else somebody would care it for you. I've 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.680 never actually thought of it that way. I think you 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.440 have to, and I think you have to part of it, right, 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:11.640 and part of setting up an ecosystem like that, or 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.320 a consumer experience like that audience experience, is that you 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.000 are really giving the audience full credit for being able 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:22.120 to know what is valuable to them, what is authentic 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.320 to them, and what is not. Whether it is picked 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.760 by an editor and highly especially curated, or whether it 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.880 is placed there by a publisher who is either Kenny 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.760 or not Um, the audience ultimately makes the decision about that, 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:36.560 and I think I think, you know, the more you're 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:40.640 able to create a native environment for content and advertisement, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:42.560 the more credit you're giving to the audience. I also 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:44.080 think you're giving a ton of credit. And I have 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.200 been like dying to say this as we're talking, like 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.320 you're giving it a lot of credit to brands that 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.000 they actually should be there, and it's weird. I actually 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:52.720 think brands have like a little bit of a self 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:57.240 deprecating attitude nowadays where they don't actually think they belong 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.800 at the same level as content. Well, you know, it's 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:06.760 like editorial. I just finished recently Um Andrew Essex's book 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.160 The End of Advertising. I think the point that Andrew 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:13.600 makes very sharply and and cleverly, maybe not even cleverly, 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:18.480 just effectively, is that the entire model has been based 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.480 on interruption to this point, and because we have now 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.800 the effectiveness and some of the placements of advertising breaking 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:29.000 down with TV viewership decreasing, with you know, all of 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.240 the fraud and and and spoofing that goes on in 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.600 the digital world. Um, it's easy as an advertiser, I 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.280 would imagine to look at it and go, yeah, people 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.280 kind of don't want me here. I mean I've been 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.640 interrupting them, and I've been you know, serving them crap 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.280 in places that they didn't expect to see it, and 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:49.360 so I should occupy this position of liability. I don't 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.880 think that's true. I think I think they. I think 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:53.840 I think brands need to step up and go I 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:55.640 need to be a contributor here because if I'm not, 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:57.840 I'm nobody's going to pay attention. That's right, I agree. 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.800 I also think they need to see that they have value. 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.680 That's for me, the most important part of the conversation. 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.000 Laura was on a panel last week at Advertising Week 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:10.160 and she said something I thought was really right and smart. Um, 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:14.640 you're right, and you're welcome. You're right and welcome was 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.840 moderated by my colleague Spencer. It was and she said, 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:23.400 you know, brands are going to start um getting into 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.080 this space because they have they're getting pressed to act, 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.400 and that's accountability. In a post truth world. And I'm 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.920 totally paraphrasing, but that's exactly what we're talking about. And 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:36.760 it's not just no one's going to pay attention to 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.240 you if you don't get in this game. It's you 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.240 need to go deep and find your own value, find 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.200 where your employees value you, find where your consumers and 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.000 customers value you, and then bring it back into some 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.400 kind of you know, I don't content or entertainment experience 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:53.320 or something. I don't think we spent enough time in 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.480 this show talking about the role of sales in our industry. 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.800 And something that you said sparked a thought, and I think, 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.600 you know, I've struggled with what is the role of 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:06.080 a salesperson? And this sort of posts you know, content 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:07.879 of the world where all the lines are blurring, and 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.359 you've got programmers, you've got engineers, you've got product people, 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:12.840 which are normally the people that I want to talk to. 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:15.160 But I think what you just identified a minute ago, 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.240 in terms of talking about the role of sales in 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:25.040 programming the spaces that an editor in chief or or um, yeah, 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:26.760 I guess you call it an inner chief is responsible 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:30.520 for programming versus a publisher, versus a publisher. Um, is 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.280 it fair to say, Ben Deets, in this new world 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.480 we're playing in that you're really sort of an editor 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:39.280 and commercial because I think it's interesting when it kind 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.080 of take because the role and responsibility on the salespeople 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:46.040 not just to think about making and the post sale um, 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.320 but actually programming the space. And I think when we 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.000 start taking sales people out of just the transactional part 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.760 and start moving them into the production part, that's where 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.800 it gets interesting money. I don't think all sales people 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.119 can do it, but well it's it's okay, So I 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.960 should hasten to say that. To call myself an editor, 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.199 much less an editor in chief is a radical overreach 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.600 that I would never ascribe to, but it is. I 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:15.960 think what you've identified is that is a belief that 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.200 I've held for a long time, which is that salespeople, 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:22.439 development people, brand connections people, whatever your job title is 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.760 pre sale, thinking about how to try to solve a 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:30.439 business is problem through your platform. Is that you have 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.400 to think, from an editorial point of view about what's 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.399 the audience going to care the most about and what 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:37.160 are they going to take away from this? And how 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:38.919 if I were sitting on the other side of the 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.520 screen or the magazine or the television. Um, how would 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.719 I interpret this branch presence here as the most additive 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.640 and the most interesting? Um? Can I Can I digress 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:50.880 for a second, because I just want to I want 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.360 to tell you a story that I found. Well, it's 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.280 one of my favorite anecdotes of late It's about vice, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.600 of course, because all my favorite ancdotes are bad and skateboarding. Um. 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:05.760 I came home the other night. This is probably a 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.680 couple of weeks ago now, after you know, being out 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.919 with some clients, uh, talking about you know, whatever it 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.119 is that we talked about in the sales and business 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.440 development world with our clients, and having had a couple 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:20.760 of wines, shall we say? And uh, and I put 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.600 on Viceland and it was the season finale of a 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.280 show called American boy Band, which is a show about 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.680 hip hop group called brock Hampton fronted by a guy 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:33.320 named Kevin Abstract. Kevin Abstract and his brock Hampton boys 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:37.920 met on the Kanye ted a website or a message 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.359 board a few years ago. This is a Kanye super 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.760 fans and the trolls who love to bait them, um, 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:46.920 talking to each other about whatever it is that Kanye 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:51.880 was working on Circle My twisted dark Fantasy, and Um, 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.200 Kevin found a community of sort of like minded weirdos 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.480 in that message board. Um, he is openly gay, is 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.920 you know, openly going through this journey of self discovery. 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.879 Really fascinating character. But he put together this crew of people, 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.520 largely through sort of sending messages and and and songs 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.640 back and forth, formed them into a group. They all 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.920 move into a house in in l A. And uh, 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:18.000 then they start releasing music the internet through SoundCloud and 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.920 Spotify and and YouTube starts picking it up. And suddenly 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:23.359 they have enough of a fan base that they can 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.800 go on a national tour. So our guys, um said, 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:28.840 we want to follow you on the national tour and 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:30.800 go out as you meet your fans and you know, 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.600 find all these teenagers on this journey of self discovery 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:35.600 and this kind of stuff. It's it's a real you know, 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.240 it's an it's an American youth story in that regard. 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.199 But the thing that happened in the finale, because I 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.719 missed the entire show and I'm going back and watching 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.320 it v O D now, Um, the thing that happens 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:49.200 in the finale is they get home from this tour 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.600 energized and exhausted from all of this you know, experience 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.160 that they've had, and they make something like five music 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.520 videos over the course of a weekend. Every one of 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.840