WEBVTT - Brazil's Rainforest Is Approaching a Point of No Return 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Karl Masser and I'm 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.840 you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.640 plus technology, politics, economics, all purtnising the power of Business 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.160 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.000 analysts in more than one twenty countries. You can download 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.479 Bloomberg Business Weekend iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. You 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.439 can also listen to our radio show at two pm 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.360 Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on YouTube 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.680 search Bloomberg Global News. Tim and I have gone through 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:33.200 some of the headlines, but we just want to remind 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.240 you City Group going back to requiring employees, regardless of 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.600 their vaccination status, to wear masks when they're in the office. 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:42.200 That's according to a person in the CDC we heard 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.199 for them, Tim advising fully vaccinated and individuals to once 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:48.519 again staring wearing masks in public, indoor settings and places 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.159 where the virus is spreading rapidly. And we've had a 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.000 ton of companies, particularly the big text based Twitter, Google 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.680 Lift rolling back bringing workers back to the office. The 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:00.520 big question I think that many people are grappling with 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:02.160 is how do they make sense of it? If they 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.920 were vaccinated in January February, many people were vaccinated in April. 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:08.600 Are they going to need a booster with conformation about 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.880 that too? Fortunately? Dr Amish Adalgo, Senior Scholar, an infectious 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:13.880 disease physician at the Center for Health Security at the 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.680 Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. He joins us 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.800 now on the phone from Pittsburgh, the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.560 School of Public Health, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.480 of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Dr Adalge, I want 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:27.959 to start with the news that we got from the 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.280 CDC earlier this week that I think was confusing to 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:35.120 a lot of people. Um, do you think that people 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.600 who live in what the CDC defines as areas of 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.640 concern UH, including New York City, including Arkansas, if they 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:48.880 have been vaccinated, should they wear a mask indoors. It's 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.000 something that I think should be more left to individual 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:56.440 discretion for fully vaccinated individuals, because there there may be 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.320 a risk that people who are fully vaccinated and get 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.320 a breakthrough, I should may develop enough viral load that 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.040 they could potentially be contagious, But it's not what's driving 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:10.320 the pandemic. It's not what's driving transmission in these hot spots. 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.720 So to make a policy in my mind based on 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.440 something that's by the road admission a very rare occurrence, 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.040 doesn't necessarily make make sense to me. I think if 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.920 you're an immunosuppressed person and you've been fully vaccinated and 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:23.960 you're in a high risk setting, it may make sense 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:25.720 to wear a mask so that you don't get a 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:27.720 break through infection. But what we're talking about with break 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:33.000 through infections are largely clinically insignificant, meaning no symptoms, mild symptoms. 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.880 It's when you walk through a hospital. It's not breakthrough 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.679 infections that you're seeing in the hospital. It's almost exclusively 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.000 people who are not vaccinated. So to me, that doesn't 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.639 really seem congruent, and I think it is confusing, and 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.079 I think it's going to be something that has basically 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:51.120 only a marginal benefit of any uh when implemented. What 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.679 about so that what's happening in my universe right now 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.320 is people all my friends have kids who are under 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:59.200 the age of twelve. That's where I am I am 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.440 in life, And what they're wondering is, Okay, well my 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:06.079 kid can't be vaccinated. Can I actually pass a breakthrough 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:07.880 infection to my kid? Like? Do I need to start 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:12.120 wearing a mask at work because that's a risk I 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.440 would not. I think that this is a very very 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:16.560 low risk. Obviously, if you have a child that has 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.480 to be your asthma or have had a heart transplant, 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:21.720 for example, you may want to take extra precautions. But 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.760 in general, this is a very rare occurrence and not 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.720 something that I think really makes a major impact on 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:33.639 how this pandemic is going to unfold. That that being said, 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.040 it's also true that just because children are not vaccinated 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.840 doesn't mean that they're a very heightened risk for severe 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.360 disease with COVID nineteen, especially as you get to those 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.240 younger age groups where COVID nineteen is more like other 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.120 respiratory viruses that they may have that they may face. 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.200 So I think that this comes up to kind of 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.440 parental risk tolerance, and with unvaccinated children that are healthy, 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.600 I think the risk that they get it from a 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.160 vaccinated person and have a have a severe outcome it's 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.320 very very if not completely near zero, doctor Daja, Then 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.680 do you think the CDC made a mistake in coming 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.440 out with that mass guidance. I do think they made 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.560 a mistake. I think what to make a policy based 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.480 on a very rare event occurring and at the same 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.040 time undermined the vaccines in the mind of the vaccine 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:22.400 hesitant because now they see nothing changes for them if 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.640 they get vaccinated. Really, I think it has set this 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.000 whole thing back because the goal of the vaccines was 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.560 never to block every breakthrough infection. The goal of the 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.640 vaccines was to stop serious disease, hospitalization, and death, and 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.480 as we all know, it's those are The vaccines are 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.279 working tremendously when you use that to measure their success, 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.200 because who's in the hospital unvaccinated people, who are dying 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:47.320 unvaccinated people. The vaccines are working extremely well. They are 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.640 the solution going back to kind of a primitive masking 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.520 approach when we have a twenty one century solution, the 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.200 vaccine really makes no sense to me. And by their 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.560 own admission, the CDC says this is probably accounting for 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.400 a very very small part portion of the transmission going on. 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.680 So what impact do you think that will have if 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.400 it's only a very small transmission, and especially in those 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:09.599 places that are hot spots, those people are not going 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:11.640 to wear masks. They're not going to get vaccinated. And 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.360 I think this is just going to further entrench their 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.440 vaccine hesitancy and confuse everybody else in the rest of 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.360 the country trying to understand if it applies to them 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.520 or not. Although we've done some analysis here at Bloomberg 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.719 and Drew Armstrong has done some reporting that in those 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:28.320 hot spots where people have been slow to get the vaccine, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.760 that those numbers are going up. Uh, maybe as a 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.960 result of this heightened awareness. Is there something to be 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:37.680 said by saying, Okay, we're going back to masks. Things 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.800 are getting a little bit tricky again, that that might 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.760 get more people who were hesitant to get the vaccine 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:48.000 to get it. Now there has been some uptick in 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.640 vaccination rates in some of those hot spot areas, but 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.360 that occurred before this CDC guidance. And remember we've never 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.160 said that unvaccinated people should be going around inspecting people 0:05:56.200 --> 0:06:00.160 without masks. What particularly is I have a problem. It's 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.039 with the CDC guidance. Who the guidance for vaccinated people 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.760 wondering whether that's the right message to be sending and 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.919 whether the data actually justifies this type of a of 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.760 a reaction based on the fact that it's not likely 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:18.040 that it is clearly not what's driving driving the pandemic. 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.040 We are in a pandemic, as the CDC director said, 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.680 of the unvaccinated, that's where our focus really should be 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.520 trying to get vaccine uptake up. But I think now 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.560 if you tell somebody that lives in Missouri, if you 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.400 get fully vaccinated, you still have to wear a mask, 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.720 they may not get vaccinated. Remember that we saw a 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.120 big uptick when the CDC changed their guidance, and if 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:36.800 you're fully vaccinated, you don't have to wear a map. 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.760 So I think that's a lot more problematic. You want 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.960 to get right back to dr amish adalgia infectious disease 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.640 physician and senior scholar John's Hopkins Center for Health Security 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.680 Charlie of course uh, mentioning UH and playing a little 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:50.479 bit of a sound from another interview from one of 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:54.559 his colleagues. Um, Dr do what I want to ask 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.400 you is if we didn't have the CDC come out 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.200 and say you've got to start wearing masks, and we 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:03.480 just kind of kept reopening the economy. Those of us 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.599 who got vaccines going about our business. Could we do 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.320 that and what would be the trajectory of maybe what 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.760 the world might look like, especially since we are seeing 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.480 rising cases and rising hospitalizations in some US hotspots, Like, 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:19.240 how would it play out? I guess I'm trying to 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:23.320 understand it exactly the same because it's not vaccinated people 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.760 that are driving hospitalizations. It's not vaccinated people that are 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:31.240 driving cases. It's the unvaccinated. So the CDC guidance was 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.720 for vaccinated people to wear masks and high risk in 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.880 high risk situations, but they're not the ones driving it. 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.360 So no, I don't think that the CDC guidance is 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:42.160 going to change the trajectory one way or the other 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:47.840 because it's not vaccinated people that are causing hospitalizations, as 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:52.360 we've said multiple times almost universally, it's the unvaccinated that 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.040 are in hospital So no, I don't think this is 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.680 going to make a major a major dent in what's 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.280 going on here. What will make a dent is the 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:02.040 unvaccinated changing their behavior by either starting to wear masks 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.040 or getting themselves vaccinated, which is the ultimate solution. But 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:10.000 if we just kept going, we can manage servicing those 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.600 that are unvaccinated who come down with COVID. I think 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:14.520 the fear is, you know what I'm asking. The fear 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:16.240 is we go back to where we were a year ago, 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.800 and it sounds like we wouldn't do that, or maybe 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.640 in certain spots of the country. I don't think COVID 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:25.880 nineteen is a systemic risk of the United States anymore 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.080 because enough high risk people have been vaccinated in many 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.280 parts of the country and most parts of the country, 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.480 so you'll see cases decouple from hospitalizations. There are some 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.600 places like Springfield, Missouri, like Arkansas, like Louisiana where that's 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.640 not the case, so that becomes a regional issue. But again, 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.440 it's not the vaccinated people that are causing that problem. 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.439 It's the unvaccinated people that are spreading it amongst themselves 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.360 and whatever contribution. If there is one of vaccinated people, 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.000 it is a miniscule proportion of what's going on here. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.120 So restricting what vaccinated people can do on behalf of 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.360 the unvaccinated isn't fair. I don't think it's scientific, because 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.080 if you're fully vaccinated, COVID nineteen is no longer a 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.839 threat to you. You will not get serious disease, hospitalization, 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.640 or death in the period end. The vaccines are are 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.320 doing their job. It's the fact that not enough people 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.280 have taken taken the vaccine that's causing the problem. And 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.520 these breakthrough infections, which were expected, are mostly clinically insignificant, 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.560 have very very mild symptoms, and are not even a 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.360 problem for the people who get those breakthrough infections, And 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.439 the issue has to be focusing on the unvaccinated people 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.640 in those hotspots that don't want to be vaccinated, They 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.600 don't want to wear masks, and that's where our problem is. 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.079 And I think that's how we're gonna progress for some 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.760 time in this two track pandemic, where the Northeast, for example, 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:40.040 has COVID managed more like a normal respiratory infection, and 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.240 other parts of the country where it's still a disruptive 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.360 effect until more people get vaccinated or the delta variant 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.119 burns itself out by VAT by infecting enough of the population. 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.080 Not a good situation. Yeah, we only have a minute left, 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:52.960 and I know that a lot of people listening right 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.640 now are thinking about kids, because the people under twelve 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.480 in this country are the ones who are not vaccinated yet. 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.120 What one listener writing and now asking about the real 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.320 risk of mortality and morbidity within within kids. What do 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:06.920 we know about the latest data. What do we know 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:11.200 about the numbers? Well, children represent a very very small 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.079 proportion of the morbidity and mortality in terms of hospitalizations 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.600 and death. Yes, there have been kids hospitalized and kids 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.520 have died, but it's as a as a percentage basis, 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.760 it's very very small. And when you get to that 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.920 younger age group, especially less than twelve, it's comparable, if 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.800 not less than what we see with influenza what we 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.680 see with RSV. So I think that's something that's important 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.160 to know is that for younger children that are healthy, 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.199 that don't have asthma, don't have heart disease or heart 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.120 transplants or whatever it might be, this is on par 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.480 with other respiratory viruses that we deal with year in 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.600 and year out. So that gives gives you some cushion there. 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.760 It's very different in younger children versus versus older people. 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.120 That's where we've seen the morbidity immortality. Children tend to 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.960 be spared from the severe effects. Thank you so much. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.439 Gets back in session exactly. Dr Amish Adalga, infectious disease 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:05.760 physician and senior scholar at JOHNS Hopkins Center for Health 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:07.800 Security at the Bloomberg School of Public Health. Of course, 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.400 supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, Founder of Bloomberg LP and 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.640 Bloomberg Philanthropy. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:19.920 Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Okay, 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.840 this may rightfully freak you out. It's about the last 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.680 days of the rainforce. Yes, that rainforce so crucial to 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:29.800 the global environment, species, all of our living beings. It's 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:31.760 a story in the magazine. It's about how the Brazilian 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.080 Amazon is approaching the point of no return and the 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.599 government there. Tim fanning the flames. Joel Weber's editor for 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.000 Bloomberg Business Week. He's with us in the Bloomberg Interactive 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.040 Broker Studio. Jessica Bryce is senior editor for Latin America 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.160 News at Bloomberg News, and she joins us on the 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.240 phone from South Pallo, Brazil. Joel, we were talking about 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.160 this during the break. I read the story this morning. 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.800 It is something that actually put me in a pretty 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:56.480 sour and foul mood because it is incredibly depressing the 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.600 Amazon rainforest. It's one of the globe's greatest natural resources. 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.839 In the past forty years, we've lost an area as 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:06.680 big as California to deforestation. Yeah, this is a gut 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.360 wrenching story. And I can't I kind of can't think 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:14.840 of something that has bigger global implications than UM losing 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:21.040 UH the Amazon. And what Jessica's UH story shows is 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.960 that it's actually it's really nuanced. UM. And I think 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:26.600 that is one thing if you spend some time with 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.200 the story, UM, reading it or or listening to it 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.040 if you prefer, you will come away with some of 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.080 that nuance. And what he ends up doing is walking 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.360 us through some of the characters, UM that are on 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.400 the ground there and and she'll tell us the story 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.560 started as a as a data project and then became 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.559 probably one of the most compelling stories UM I've ever 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.840 published as the editor of Business Week. UM. And you 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.319 know the thing that I think, UM it shows more 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.240 than anything, is that there is a official land grab 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:02.840 policy that has happening in Brazil, and it's allowing the 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:08.839 rainforest to basically get turned into grassland that can be 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.720 UM um where cattle can be raised, which is about 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.400 the worst one eight that we can do for the planet, 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.520 as you can imagine. So Jessica, walk us through UM 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.520 where you started this project and what you learned along 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:26.960 the way. Hi, thanks for having me on this show. Um. Yeah, 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.360 I started the project really looking at the data behind 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:32.640 DeForest station, trying to figure out, you know, we've been 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.839 struggling with this issue for decades now, and why is 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.160 it still something that we're we're seeing? Why is why 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.760 is it not something that the world is able to 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.280 to stop? Why is the Brazil government not stopping it? Um? 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.520 So I started looking at the data of who's actually 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.040 doing it, and it took me in in place into 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.600 directions that I had never really expected. I mean, it's 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:54.680 it is such a nuanced story. It is such a 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.240 complicated story. And what it comes down to is, you know, 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.760 the folks on the ground, Uh, for decades, they've been 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.600 told that deforestation is a good thing, that they need 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.480 to deforce the land, and in fact, in some cases, um, 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:10.920 they were you know, handed plots and if they didn't 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.920 deforce the land, they risk losing those plots. And so 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.320 that culture has really stuck in the Amazon and the 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:21.960 folks there now, which a lot of them are incredibly poor. Um. 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:26.320 The governments keeps that policy alive because it helps pump 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:31.520 this land, this cleared land, into industrial farming operations that 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.400 feed the world. I mean, this is such a big 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.520 part of it, right, supporting the people who live in 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.640 a country and area, right. And so there's as you 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.320 just explained that on one hand, but at the same 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.880 time we're talking about the existence of the global population 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.920 and protecting the rainforest. It's a policy that's not just 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.400 from President Boson Narrow. It's been around for a while. 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.400 It has been a while around for a while. UM. 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.800 During the dictatorship of the really prioritized giving it to 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.960 big landowners, big industry. Um. And then so you have 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.760 this population of people who have been working the lands 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:14.239 for for generations and they and so when the democracy 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.440 came about, uh, the government decided to give them small 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.960 plots of land. So that was in the constitution. What 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:24.080 we saw is that two governments prior to Bosonato, they 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.040 moved the needle for they said, okay, so will amnesty 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:32.520 more recent deforestation, will amnesty bigger deforestation. Now, what the 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.920 government wants to do is sort of take that too, like, uh, 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.440 just a very scary uh, a very scary next step 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.120 and say, Okay, we're going to start amnestying more recent 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.520 deforestation as recently as two thousand and twelve. Boconnado did 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.440 wanted amnesty as recently as two thousand eighteen. Um, but 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.240 we're not even gonna check it. We're gonna do it 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.440 all by satellite UM and so it really opens the 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:59.720 door to almost sixteen million hectares of of of new 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:04.040 Amazon land that could be UM amnestyed. Basically, this is 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.600 stolen public land that could be amnestying. Can you make 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.840 the connection for people who live thousands of miles away 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.480 from the Amazon about just why it is so important 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.800 not just for Brazil but for our own health, because 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:19.640 that was one of the most striking parts of the 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:24.000 story for me. Right, So, we're reaching a point where 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.240 the Amazon, which has always been considered sort of the 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.960 lungs of the world, it's turning into savannah. It's that 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.640 it's at risk of turning into savannah, and instead of 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.880 of cleaning the earth air, it's actually accelerating climate change 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:40.800 and in some cases where the burns are the worst, 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.560 it's actually pumping more carbon dioxide into the air than 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.960 it can absorb. Um. Now, if it turns into savannah, 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.760 what happens. We lose ten thousand species are at risk. 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:54.680 But also the Amazon helps regulate the entire the weather 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.560 patterns here in the in in South America, and South 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.080 America produces a lot of food for the world. UM. 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:06.560 So you there's there's a combination of factors that are 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:08.919 really sort of scary. Not only does it you know, 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:13.119 contribute to climate change, it you know, contributes to more 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:15.920 pollution in the air, but it also changes our weather, 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.480 our weather patterns in in in a region that makes 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.639 a lot of food for the world. And so it 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.920 is quite shocking what what we're looking at. So let's 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:31.080 talk about what happens when um uh the rainforest comes down. Um. 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.720 Basically we have it's a story about poor people who 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.520 are moving into the jungle and claiming land, and then 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:43.720 that land ends up becoming homes and villages over time, 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.360 and then they inherit that that land, and the government 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.280 basically um you know, has that amnesty program that allows 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.960 them to stay there and those those those those homes 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:58.879 become permanent um places uh. And and really the whole 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:03.439 thing is about allowing them to raise cattle, right, Jessica, 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.119 because that's the thing that allows them to eventually flip 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.120 it and sell and have have a business. What what 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.199 what are the economics of all that end up looking like? 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.880 And just just have about forty seconds left here, Okay, Yeah, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:16.880 So it used to be driven by a lot by 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:21.160 poor folks, by by poor you know, individual farmers going 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.240 into the Amazon and staking a claim. But what we've 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.840 seen recently in the invasions is that they're very sophisticated. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:29.760 And we go into the story about this. You know, 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.919 we did visit in a camp and it's sprouted up 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.680 in five months. It's how you know, there's houses, there's 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:40.119 a school, there's internet, there's running water, and so the 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:45.080 poor farmers alone can't uh explain the sheer scale of 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.760 the deforestation that we're seeing. There's money, someone is financing 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.080 some of this um and so so I think that's 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.160 really the kind of the next step in the next 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.879 investigation that we need to do is like who who's 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.119 actually behind a lot of this DeFore station. There's so 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.159 much in this story. Highly recommend you read all of 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.600 it or listen to the story. Jessico, Bryce thank you 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.000 so much. Senior editor for Latin American News at Bloomberg, 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.919 Jill Webber, thank you as well. You're listening to Bloomberg 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.560 Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.040 Stinovik on Bloomberg Radio. All right, you are listening to 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.000 Bloomberg Business Week. Among our most read stories on the 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.840 Bloomberg Today about Nicolas my saying it correctly? Yeah, well, 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.000 it depends like I've heard some people say Tesla differently. 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.840 All right, Nikolas founder and former chairman charged with misleading 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.400 investors stock dropping on the news today. Let's get into 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.520 it with someone who has been covering this company for US. 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.320 Bloomberg News reporter Ed Ludlow. He is in our San 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:42.520 Francisco bureau um Ed, great to have you here. So 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:46.080 you know this story really really well. Tell us about 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.679 the latest. Yeah. So, Trevor Milton has been charged by 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:57.760 New York prosecutors for essentially lying, making misstatements, false statements 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.960 to investors about niko as technology and the progress that 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.320 the company made. Remember, this is a company that was 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.520 founded with the ambition to make fuel cell powered semi 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.000 trucks and battery electric semi trucks and along the way 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.439 all kinds of kind of weird, quirky stuff like the 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:18.960 Badger pick up which was scrapped eventually, sports vehicles, a 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.520 network of hydrogen fueling stations. Um. And it's not a 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.639 huge surprise. We knew that this investigation by both the 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.440 DJ and the SEC was ongoing, and indeed, the company's 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:33.560 own internal invest investigation through an outside law firm found 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:37.080 you know, similar results that he had made misstatements. But 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:39.959 but it is, you know, a substantive step forward forward 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.920 what's been a roller coaster story and wondering what happens 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.760 to the company. I mean, shares down more than ten 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.399 percent right now. These shares were trading at nearly eighty 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.960 dollars a little over a year ago on June nine. 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.119 It has come fall. It has fallen far and fallen 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:01.399 relatively quickly. Where does the company go for here? The 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.399 thing is that the company has been separate from Trevor 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.240 Milton for some time. You know, he resigned as executive 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.520 chairman in September of last year. You know, the company 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:14.480 released a statement pointing out that this investigation or these 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:18.400 charges are against Trevor Milton, They're not against Nicola Court. 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.119 You know, this is a completely separate Nicolas said that 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:25.600 they cooperated with the investigation throughout its entire duration, and 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:29.520