1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There are 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Bad guys 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,159 Speaker 1: are coming. They're coming for you, and they're coming for 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: your kids. If you spent any time on social media 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: in the last few years, you've probably heard some version 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: of a story like that. Strangers are waiting, lurking, generally 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: in the parking lot or the aisles of a big 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: box store like Target, and they're hunting down women and 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: their children to snatch them up in broad daylight for trafficking. 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: This is not new at all. I definitely grew up 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: hearing horror stories like the one about the woman driver 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: terrified by a man tailgating or and flashing her high 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: beams at night, but he's actually just trying to warn 14 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: her that a man is in her back seat waiting 15 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: to strike. Those stories definitely made a big impression on me. 16 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: But instead of them just being passed around in home room, 17 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: add in social media and stories like this can spread 18 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: to peak virality online. Stories like these are especially common 19 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: on social media. Just search the hashtag sex traffic and 20 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: awareness on TikTok and you will find thousands of women 21 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: making videos about how traffickers tied a ribbon or a 22 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: zip tied to their car to mark them as a victim, 23 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: or how a van parked too close to them in 24 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: a parking lot and it was a near miss for 25 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: a trafficking attempt. The only issue is this kind of trafficking, 26 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: where someone is snatched by a stranger in a public place, 27 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: is exceedingly rare. Yet videos like these often go viral 28 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: and social media, leading the impression that women should be 29 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: afraid anytime they leave their homes to go to the store. 30 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 1: In this two part episode, we'll explore the roots of 31 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: online panics around trafficking, why they're so dangerous, and here 32 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: from two people who are fighting back with facts. The 33 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: podcast You're Wrong About is kind of a gold standard 34 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: for revisiting moral panics and debunking the commonly held beliefs 35 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: that led to them. Hosts Michael Hobbs and Sarah Marshall 36 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: have found that in many ways, we're basically just doing 37 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: a mad Lives where the blank is filled with some 38 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: kind of boogeyman society can blame at times when people 39 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: are feeling anxious are scared, like the Satanic panic of 40 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties, where parents were horrified that satanic 41 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: cults were ritualistically abusing children. Only that was never really happening. Basically, 42 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: there was always some big scary threat that we need 43 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: to be watching out for. My name is Michael Hobbs. 44 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: I'm the co host of a podcast called You're Wrong 45 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: About and another podcast called Maintenance Phase So Online. I 46 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: find that so many conversations about big complex issues, things 47 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: like trafficking or homelessness, are really dominated by people who 48 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: don't really know what they're talking about and who were 49 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: either spreading bad information intentionally or unintentionally. When you started 50 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: making You're Wrong About, where you all setting out to 51 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: give people the tools to push back against this kind 52 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: of bad information. No, like this, this was completely accidental. 53 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: We had no idea when we started that we would 54 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: find out that America keeps having the same moral panic 55 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: over and over again. This was not something that we thought, 56 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's all the same thing. It's like a 57 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: tide that comes in and out. You know, the satanic 58 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: panic is always with us, queuing on is always with us. 59 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: We had no idea that we would come up with that. 60 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,839 Speaker 1: It's just sort of we we research, sort of debunkable 61 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: episodes in history, and when you start to bunking them, 62 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: you're like an hour or two into the research and 63 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, it's this one again. Oh, we're gonna 64 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: do the thing where they're like strangers coming to get 65 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: your kids, right, or there's some societal out group right 66 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: like homeless people, like trans people, like sex offenders that 67 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: we don't like, and we're going to project this extreme 68 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: power onto them. We're going to project this extreme rapaciousness 69 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: onto them. There's millions of them, you know, they're coming 70 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: to the border. They're trying to steal your kids and 71 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: get them into street gangs. I mean, it's it's like 72 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: this mad libs where you can just throw in like, Okay, 73 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: which societal outgroup is it going to be? What are 74 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: they doing to our kids today? Like it's it's over 75 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: and over again the same thing. So we've both me 76 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: and my co host Sarah Marshall have become these like 77 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,119 Speaker 1: accidental insufferable debunkers or we're like, nope, same one. We're 78 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: doing this again, guys, Like let's calm it down. We've 79 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: done this seven times before. So in my research around disinformation, 80 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: particularly like false panics, around things that are rooted in 81 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: people's identity. So whether it's trans folks, queer folks, you know, immigrants, 82 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: it is always sort of the same thing. Like I 83 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: feel right now we're seeing all of the legislations would 84 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: have meant to make you think as if trans children 85 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: are like running the world, Like trans children are the 86 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: biggest threat to your kids, totally and there and and 87 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: it's the same tropes, right, So they're coming for your kids, 88 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: they're recruiting your kids, Like this is the same thing 89 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: that Anita Bryant said about gay people in the seventies 90 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: and the nine eighties, Like we're just running exactly the 91 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: same playbook. Anita Bryant was a singer and beauty queen 92 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: who famously led the Save Our Children campaign that attempted 93 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: to save children by cracking down on gay people having rights. 94 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: And we're just mad living in a new societal outgroup. 95 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: So I mean, at the beginning of the pandemic, I 96 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: read a bunch of books about the Black plague, just 97 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: out of like more, just out of like morbid curiosity. 98 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: And you know what you find in these old panics, 99 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: You know, these times of societal anxiety, you had some 100 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: of the biggest pogroms against Jews in Europe in history, right, 101 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: it was like, there's this big thing we can't explain. 102 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: There's all of these anxieties, people are dying all around me. 103 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: Who can we blame? Like, we don't want to look 104 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: at any existing societal structures. We don't want to look 105 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: at something that's just difficult for us to explain. It's 106 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: sort of out of our scientific knowledge. So, uh, there's 107 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: this group here that seems sort of shifting and we 108 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: don't really like them. Let's blame them and kill a 109 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: bunch of them. It's like these things are old, ancient 110 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: human impulses and they're very difficult to see at the time. 111 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: But zooming out a little bit, you're like, oh no, 112 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: this is just what happens during times of anxiety, and 113 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: isn't the perfect recipe for a very anxious society a 114 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: global pandemic. It's probably not a coincidence that has COVID worsened. 115 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: We saw more and more content about Q and on 116 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: and Save the Children, purporting to save kids from some 117 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: perceived danger lurking out in the world. Why do you 118 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: think right now the specific moment in politics and culture, 119 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: why are we seeing this resurgence of panic around sex 120 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: trafficking and trafficking dowsing. I mean, it's hard to say exactly. 121 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: I think you know this this really hit its peak 122 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: last summer, all of this q and on hashtag save 123 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: the Children's Stuff, and it really seems like there was 124 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: a moment where, you know, we're in the middle of 125 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: a pandemic. Information was all over the place, right like, remember, 126 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: we didn't like, are we wearing masks? Are we not 127 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: wearing masks? Some states are in lockdown, some states are 128 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: aggressively not in lockdown. It was just this time where 129 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: nobody really knew what was going on. And there's some 130 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: research that indicates that sort of at times when you're 131 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: really angry, you search for information that reinforces your worldview, 132 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: and at times when you're really anxious, you are more 133 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: open to information that doesn't reinforce your worldview. So all so, 134 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: all summer, everybody's inside, we're all on our phones, there's 135 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: nothing else to do, We're looking at the internet, and 136 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you have people whose minds are 137 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: a little bit more open to things like, well, maybe 138 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: the real danger to children isn't COVID, maybe it's actually 139 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: these you know, white van driving traffickers who come from 140 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: other countries and they're going to kidnap my kids and 141 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: take them abroad or these these these narratives that just 142 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: make no sense, right, and you know, at the heart 143 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: of it, the little seed in the middle of it 144 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: was this insane q and on stuff right where it's 145 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: like a dren of chrome and like Hillary Clinton is 146 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: like cutting the faces off a baby, like completely nuts stuff. 147 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: But there's enough sort of plausible deniability around that that 148 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: you can very easily say, well, I care about children, 149 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: and so what's the harm of sharing this little mean like, 150 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: what's the harm of taking this little thing on Facebook 151 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: that says, you know, infamously there was one that said 152 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: that children are thousands of times more likely to die 153 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: of trafficking than of COVID And so it feels, you know, 154 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: and it was in like the the Instagram aesthetic right 155 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: where it's got like the little logo and it's in 156 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: pink and it's very share able, and it's like, well, 157 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: what's the harm, Like I might as well share that, 158 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: you know, if it helps save a kid or two, 159 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: then I'm doing something good and up some sort of 160 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: that's a feeling of certainty in the world, right, But 161 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: nobody thinks about what it does to reinforce these just 162 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: deranged myths that aren't helping children, they're not helping non children, 163 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: they're not helping anybody. But it's it's easy to forget 164 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: that when you're like, well, what's the harm of sharing this? 165 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden these bananas memes start 166 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: just bouncing around the internet for months. Yeah, I think 167 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: list honestly listening to your wrong about with something that 168 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: really helped make that transition for me, because you know, 169 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: for a while, I'd be like, well, if this person 170 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: thinks it's going to do some good to share this 171 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: unstrewn meme on their Facebook page about traffic younger, about children, 172 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: who is it hurting? Now I've come to see that, Okay, Well, 173 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: if we over emphasize the risks of little kids being 174 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: like snatched up or things like that, what are we 175 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: under what are we under emphasizing you know, kids like 176 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: youth who are facing homelessness, youth who are are put 177 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: in precarious or you know, bad or dangerous situations, things 178 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: that are much more common, Like if we focus on 179 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: this big scary thing that isn't happening. All of the 180 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: things that actually are happening, we're just taking attention away 181 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: from that, right. And there's also this retributive aspect to 182 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: where a lot of those memes that went around we're 183 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: about sort of catching the pedophiles, catching the traffickers. You know, 184 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 1: we have to find the evil people and we have 185 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: to root them out of our society. And that's not 186 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: where the threats to children come from. The threats to 187 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: children are primarily in the family. A lot of it 188 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: is things like homelessness. There's very few youth homeless shelters 189 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: in most cities in America. There's also a completely broken 190 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: foster care system. So when you look at things like 191 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: the sort of Missing and Exploited Child hotline, of the 192 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: calls are coming from foster care. So when we talk 193 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: about trafficking, we're mostly talking about runaways. We're mostly talking 194 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: about kids who are abused at home, abused in foster care. 195 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: They're queer, they're trans they need a place to stay, 196 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: they don't need somebody else to go to jail forever. 197 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: And when we're sharing these means that are sort of 198 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: blaming all of these societal problems on these societal others 199 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 1: that we already don't like or a little bit wary of. Anyway, 200 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: all we're really doing is contributing to these retributive solutions 201 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: which do not make children safer. Yeah, and I also 202 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: think it does kind of come down to what you 203 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: were talking about before, this idea of like wanting to 204 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: catch the bad guys. That's so much more exciting and fun. Then, Oh, 205 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: we need to confront some of these systemic ills in 206 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: our society that allow for already marginalized people fault through 207 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: the cracks. That's boring. It's so much more fun to 208 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: be like, Yeah, I'm gonna track down these bad guys. 209 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. Our back on Instagram video 210 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: made by mom influencer Katie Sorenson, where she said that 211 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: two strangers tried to kidnap her kids and a Michael's 212 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,599 Speaker 1: craft store in California, got over two million views Monday 213 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: of this week. My children were the targets of attempted kidnap, 214 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: which is such a weird thing to even vocalize. Um, 215 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: but it happened, um. And I want to share that 216 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: story with you in an effort to raise awareness as 217 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: to what signs to look for and to just encourage 218 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: parents to be more aware of their surroundings and what 219 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: is going on around them. Sorenson said that she overheard 220 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: the couple making comments about her kid's appearance, and the 221 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: man even tried to grab at her child stroller. But 222 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: when the couple saw their picture being posted on saved 223 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: the children forms online in connection with an attempted kidnapping, 224 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: they came forward to deny any wrongdoing and cooperated with 225 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: the police investigation. Grandparents themselves, they said they had just 226 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: been discussing their own grandkids, not Sorenson's kids. Their daughter 227 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: says Sorenson's allegations were racially motivated because their parents are Latino. 228 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: Police cleared the couple of any wrongdoing and closed the case, 229 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: and Sorenson says that she shared her story just to 230 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: warn other parents to remain vigilant. But this is a 231 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: great example of why sharing stories just for awareness is 232 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: not always a helpful thing to do. It also over 233 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: emphasizes the idea that white kids are at risk for 234 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: being kidnapped by strangers from public places and affluent suburbs, 235 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: which when it comes to trafficking, is exceedingly rare, while 236 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: de emphasizing that the existing threats out there are much 237 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: more likely to be family members, are trusted community members 238 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: praying on vulnerable people, and that those targeted are more 239 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: often than not marginalized youth, queer kids, or trans kids, 240 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: or kids facing poverty or homelessness. Like someone who's kidnapping 241 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: children and taking them across state lines and keeping them 242 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: in motel rooms and forcing them to have sex with people, 243 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: which almost doesn't exist. I mean, then the number of 244 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: confirmed cases of that you can almost count on one 245 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: or two hands. It's extremely rare. Kids are running away 246 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: from home, they don't have a place to stay, they 247 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: don't feel safe where they're sleeping. They end up sleeping 248 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: on the streets. Somebody pulls up in a car and says, 249 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: I'll give you a place to stay tonight if you 250 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: have sex with me Like that is something. It's called 251 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: survival sex. It is a very well known phenomenon. It 252 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: is a huge problem. And the way that you solve 253 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: it isn't by putting anybody in jail. It's having a 254 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: phone number for those kids to call and a van 255 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: comes and picks them up and takes them somewhere safe. 256 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: And we've known this forever and we're not doing anything 257 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: about it, and so that's less memable, that's less sort 258 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: of satisfying to share online. But it's like we just 259 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: need more places for kids to go. Who needs somewhere 260 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: to sleep? Like that's it, absolutely, And I think you 261 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: make a good point that the people who are often 262 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: targeted for this kind of thing are queer kids, trans kids, 263 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: youth of color, black youth. And I think it's so 264 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: interesting that if you spend any time scrolled in TikTok, 265 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: the people who are taking up the most space in 266 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: terms of talking about the risk that trafficking poses are 267 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: white women, you know, suburban white women. And so I 268 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: can't help but see this real disconnect in terms of 269 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: who is actually the target and the actual person who 270 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: is harmed by this and the people who are talking 271 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: about it and making the most content about it and 272 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: sort of like scarrying people about it. What what do 273 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: you think is going on there? I will just say 274 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: for the record, no one is doing zip ties on 275 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: your car a target. No one is hiding under your 276 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: car to cut your ankle with a razor blade. I mean, 277 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: the minute you google or even like you don't even 278 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: have to google, you just have to think about these things. 279 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: Does it make sense to lie down underneath somebody's car 280 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: for hours and wait for them with like a racer 281 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: blade in your hand and then slice their achilles heel? 282 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: Like that's not a fun or smart thing to do 283 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: for somebody who wants to try to kill you, Right, So, 284 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: all of these kinds of stories, it's just it's very 285 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: important to just say, like on their face, stuff like 286 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: this really doesn't happen very much. We know that the 287 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: primary risks to women are from their partners and from 288 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: their dad's And if you're somebody younger, it's like a 289 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: soccer coach or somebody in power. Right, it's like a 290 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: weird scout leader who's asking you to stay over at 291 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: his house the night before one of these camping trips. 292 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: Like these are these are the threats to people and 293 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: to children, and they're mostly from people who have enough 294 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: societal power that you don't trust your gut. So one 295 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: of the things you find in a lot of these stories, 296 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: his parents will say, well, you know, we thought it 297 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: was a little bit weird that, you know, the priest 298 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: asked our son to sleep over, but you know, he's 299 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: a priest. How could he ever? You know, how could 300 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: he ever harm our son? He's a like this felt 301 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: weird to us, but you know he has this sort 302 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: of societally bestowed power that makes us not trust our gut, 303 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: Like this is what power does. And so the thing 304 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: that we need to look for our places where we 305 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: have power in society and we don't have accountability, and 306 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: we already have so much accountability, Like I don't want 307 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: to imply that, Like there's no such thing as somebody 308 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: in a white van who's kidnapping kids, whatever, But it's 309 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: much more common for someone to abuse the trust of children, 310 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: and and especially abuse the trust of marginalized children. Right, 311 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: because if you don't feel safe at home, you might 312 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: turn to a soccer coach as somebody to talk to, 313 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: as somebody who feels safe even though they aren't. Right. 314 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: This is the process of sort of making somebody unsafe 315 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: and physically threatening somebody often does come down to tricking 316 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: them and looking for these elements of marginalization that and 317 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: looking for these aspects of marginalization that make them easier 318 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: to trick. So at every level, it's of vulnerable kids. 319 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: It's finding the vulnerable kids and giving them actual safe 320 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: places to go and safe adults to actually talk to 321 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: you about this stuff. So again boring, but like that's 322 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: that's not something that you can see in target, but 323 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: it's this is what society needs, and it's what we've 324 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: needed for decades. We're just not doing more. After a 325 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: quick break, let's get right back into it. When women 326 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: make videos on social media about them or their kids 327 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: narrowly escaping being hunted by would be traffickers, they often 328 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: go viral. That's because we've deemed it okay to talk 329 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: about the perceived threat of strangers or the other. But 330 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: what about when women talk about people they know of 331 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: using their power, people in their communities or in their 332 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: own homes, even though the actual threat is much more 333 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: likely to be someone you know, not a stranger in 334 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: a van. Women are not always supported when we speak 335 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: up about it. I do think as a society it's 336 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: okay for women and families to call out like, quote 337 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: unquote bad guys if they're scary monsters showing up at 338 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: a van, But if it's somebody that lives with, somebody 339 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: in your family, somebody in your church, somebody in your community, Like, 340 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: we're pretty uncomfortable with women, you know, calling out people 341 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: in those positions who abuse their power. But if it somehow, 342 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 1: it's like totally fine, if you're thinking of it as 343 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: like calling out a bad guy in a van. And 344 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: that's also that's another aspect of marginalization, right that if 345 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: it's a poor mother, maybe she's a single mom, maybe 346 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: she's working two jobs, and she doesn't see her kids 347 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: that much, and she goes to some authority and she says, 348 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: you know, I feel a little bit weird about the 349 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 1: soccer coach. People might not believe her. They're like, isn't 350 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: she a bad mother anyway? Right, So, at every level, 351 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: marginalization makes it so much harder to address these problems 352 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: because that just gives you know, the priest is going 353 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: to have a lot more credibility than the single mom 354 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: who's not home as much as she'd like to be. 355 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: So at every level, these are the things that we 356 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: have to address and setting up formal systems to investigate 357 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: these things and act will accountability mechanisms. So I I 358 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: keep saying, I only have one argument on the show, 359 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: but like we just need to do the boring stuff, 360 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: Like I wish it was more interesting than that. No, 361 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: it's so true, and you know, you talk a little bit. 362 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: You talked a bit about like zip ties on your 363 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: car and people hiding under your car, Like what role 364 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: do you think that local media and also law enforcement 365 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: has to play in this? Because I I've read articles 366 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: where on its face it would appear that a police 367 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: officer or somebody in law enforcement has confirmed, yes, we 368 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: saw this zip ti on the cars and this is 369 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: a trafficking thing. But actually when you like dig dig, 370 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: dig a little deeper into it, you're like, Okay, this 371 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: police officer is confirming that this person called the police 372 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: and they came for this reason, but it's not actually 373 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: there's not actually any proof that like this was tied 374 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: to a trafficking attempt. What role do you think that 375 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: journalists and law enforcement should play and making sure that 376 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: these panics don't spin out of control. If one of 377 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: the ones I think it was last summer maybe last fall, 378 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: was these poor people had their wedding and they had 379 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: some flowers left over from their wedding, and they thought 380 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: it would be cute to put them on people's car 381 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: in a parking lot. And then people came out to 382 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: their cars and found a flower and they freaked out 383 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: there like it's traffickers. I marked the traffickers are after me, 384 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: and these poor people who are just trying to do 385 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: something nice or like all of a sudden sort of 386 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: smeared as traffickers. And what was amazing was the cops 387 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: sort of like reinforced this. It's like, oh, you know, 388 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: we've we've had threats recently of trafficking, and you know, 389 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: we've we've heard rumors of trafficking, and of course the 390 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: local media reinforces this too, that you know, trafficking is 391 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: a huge problem in this area and it could happen 392 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: to anyone, but not in this particular case. And there's 393 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: no sort of attempt to debunk the meta myth here 394 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: that people are staking you out in parking lots to 395 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: kidnap you like that even even for like truly evil people, 396 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: that doesn't make that much sense. Parking lots are really 397 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: really public and it's like broad daylight, And why would 398 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: you leave a flower to like communicate with the other traffickers, 399 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: like just text the other traffickers, Like it doesn't make 400 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: sense on any level, But we get this weird credulity, 401 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: especially around this issue that you know, one of the 402 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: tenets of journalism is you're supposed to do sort of 403 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: both sides. Right. We saw this for climate change for years, right, 404 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: Like there's the people that say the climate change is 405 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: real and then there's the whack jobs who say that 406 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: it's not. But we have to put both of them 407 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: on the air. Right. But then, weirdly, when it comes 408 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: to trafficking and these other stranger danger myths, there's no 409 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: need to speak to like actual sex workers who are like, uh, 410 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: this is not how sex work works. There's no need 411 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: to talk to actual child advocates or social workers. There's 412 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: no need to talk to anybody who's skeptical of this. 413 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: It's just like, well, cops say there's a bunch of 414 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: trafficking out there, so let's just tell people that. So 415 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: it's just really frustrating that there isn't the same level 416 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: of scrutiny and the same journalistic standards applied to these 417 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: kinds of stories that hits something like really deep within 418 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: us of like, oh, this is the danger I have 419 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: to worry about. Yeah, I think I haven't even thought 420 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: about that. But it's a good point, and I part 421 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: of me wonders if it's a little bit of hesitation 422 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: because and I've trugled with this as well. You don't 423 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: want to feel like you're invalidating somebody's experience, right, Like, 424 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: if somebody feels like like they were targeted or they 425 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: were like something sketchy was going on, I want people 426 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: to feel like that experience is okay to talk about. 427 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: But I also don't want someone to use that experience 428 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: to fuel something that's just not true that's going for 429 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: a result in more harm. Right. And there's also there 430 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: are real cases of this happening. I mean, this is 431 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: one of the challenges with moral panics is that most 432 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: moral panics, they never come from nothing. Right. We had 433 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: this massive panic in the nineteen eighties and nines about 434 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: quote unquote stranger danger that you know, kids were gonna 435 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: come and steal your kids, and like, there were some 436 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: truly horrific, awful, heartbreaking cases where this really did happen. 437 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: This is why, this is how we got all of 438 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: these you know, Jacob's Law and Megan's Law and all 439 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: these laws that are named after kids and things like 440 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: the Amber alerts. So there were real cases. But the 441 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: problems that these these very small number of truly heartbreaking, 442 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: true cases get expanded into this massive national problem that 443 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: we all need to be worried about, and very quickly 444 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: becomes this thing of like, well, if it saves one child, right, 445 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: we can sacrifice our civil liberties. We can incarceerate a 446 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: bunch of people on sort of spurious grounds if it 447 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: saves one child and one thing, you know, as somebody 448 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: who is a urban cyclist and somebody who takes like 449 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: urban safety very seriously. This is not a standard that 450 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: we apply to the lives of children in other contexts. Right, 451 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: if you if you want to save the life of 452 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: one child, you'd crack down on guns. Guns kill three 453 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: thousand kids a year. Cars kill six thousand kids a year. Right, 454 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: you could make the speed limit in every single city 455 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: fifteen miles an hour throughout the country, and you would 456 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: literally save the lives of kids, because most kids are 457 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: killed by speeding cars. But that's not a sacrifice that 458 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: we're willing to make, because that's something that I would 459 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: have to sacrifice. I would have to I would have 460 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: to drive slower. Whereas whenever it comes to these you know, 461 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: if it saves a life of one child, these kinds 462 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: of sacrifices, it's always somebody else who's going to make 463 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: the sacrifice, it's somebody else who's gonna go to jail 464 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: that the effects of this are going to be in 465 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: did on a societal out group. So this this entire 466 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: logic of like, you know, we must do this to 467 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: save one child. That's great logic, but it's not a 468 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: logic that we applied to any other social problem. That's 469 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: so true, and I think, yeah, I think the idea 470 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: that the people who are going to be further criminalized 471 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: harmed by this by like when we make laws, you know, 472 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: kind of quickly as long as it's not like me 473 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: feeling that repercussion, you know, as long as that someone 474 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: else dealing with it, I think that we're much more 475 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: comfortable with that. What can we do to avoid falling 476 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: into moral panics, even ones that are like well intentioned, 477 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: you know, how can we avoid this on a on 478 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: a wider scale. I mean, I want to say, like 479 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: be careful with what you share, but like I'm not 480 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: all that careful with what I share. Like there's a 481 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: lot of information out there. It's really hard like people, 482 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: you know, we shouldn't all be having to read the 483 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: nutrition label on every single piece of information. I will say, 484 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 1: just on these kinds of things. It's it's never strangers. 485 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: It's never like these kinds of mono myths. Anything that 486 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: looks like the sort of remember the flashing your high 487 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: beams gang initiation stuff, Those are totally bunk. Anything involving 488 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: like random targeting of civilians, it's that really never happens. 489 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: Anything the stranger is kidnapping you in broad daylight. I 490 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: think there's like certain categories of anecdotes that are just 491 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: like these ones never turned out to be true, so 492 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: we should just stop sharing them. Like, don't don't feel 493 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: like you have to warn people about anything involving a 494 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: parking lot. If a parking lot is involved, people are safe. 495 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: I mean, they're all like videotaped at this point exactly 496 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: like people are safe and parking lots just like, leave 497 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: the parking lots alone. It's fine. It's so funny because 498 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: I went back and listened to the episode that y'all 499 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,719 Speaker 1: did about sex trafficking and the list of things that 500 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: they tell young people to look out for that could 501 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: be signs of trafficking, things like if somebody is moody, 502 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: or if somebody all of a sudden starts dressing different 503 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: or wearing different clothes, or if they get a bar 504 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: code tattoo as somebody who grew up kind of you know, 505 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: gothy goth Jason Alti adjacent. I knew two different people 506 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: who had bar colde tattoos. Right, all of the warning 507 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: signs of trafficking are like teenage stuff. It's like, oh, 508 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: she's moody or like like her taste in music changes. 509 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: You're like, that's not a sign of trafficking. That's a 510 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: sign of teenager nous. That's a side a side of 511 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: adolessis Yeah. So another I mean another like rule of 512 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: thumb that just don't share anything involving trafficking basically, like 513 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: I think this, this word, this whole field is so 514 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: tainted at this point that it's just not useful to 515 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: share any of the viral post statistics like until we 516 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: know more, just like hold off on the trafficking stuff. Gang, Yeah, 517 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: that's that's great advice. I would also say, like, not 518 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: that I think that any celebrities listen to this, listen 519 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: to my podcast, but when well meeting celebrities get involved 520 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: in a trafficking campaign, shut it down, right, Like, I'm 521 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: sure you're a good guy, don't use you don't It 522 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: sets me when I see celebrities who I'm sure like 523 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: their hardest in the right place, but like getting involved 524 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: in trafficking campaigns that are tied to specific legislation like 525 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: Sesta Fasta. It's like, oh, like it's just does such 526 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: a bad look on such a complicated issue. Yeah. I 527 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: think the biggest thing is that, you know, the trafficking 528 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: field right now is this weird, unholy alliance between very 529 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: well meaning celebrities and anythink well meaning people and not 530 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: well meaning, mostly Republican legislatures who want to use this 531 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: as an excuse to crackdown on immigration, to crack down 532 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: on sex work, to crack down on children, anything that 533 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: they perceive as posing a threat to children, which is 534 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: mostly like trans people. So I think any time we 535 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: have any bills being pushed by these super Republican legislators, 536 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: I think, just like be careful with that stuff. Like 537 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: any time you have the religious right and the Republican 538 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: Party pushing one of these bills, like just slow down 539 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: and like ask actual sex workers, like what is in 540 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: this bill and are you in support of it? Like 541 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: over and over again, we end up talking over the 542 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: groups that actually get affected by this and just like, know, 543 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: some sex workers follow a bunch of sex workers online 544 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: and see what they're mad about, and like, they are 545 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: not mad about this kind of stuff. They're mad about 546 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: the legislators that are trying to take their rights away again. 547 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: There is so much to say about how we talk 548 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: about trafficking online, especially on TikTok, where so many viral 549 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: claims about trafficking take off. Next we'll hear from Jessica, 550 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: who goes by blood Bath and Beyond on TikTok, about 551 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: her use of TikTok to spread accurate information about trafficking. 552 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: When we start drowning out that conversation, we're we're not 553 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: only are we not letting that get the spotlight where 554 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: it really needs to be the forefront of this conversation, 555 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: we are also hurting the actual victims directly themselves, because 556 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: we're creating this idea and this culture around what trafficking 557 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,959 Speaker 1: looks like and what the average victim looks like. So 558 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: when a victim comes forward and says I think I 559 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: was sex trafficked or I need help, people are less 560 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: inclined to believe them because we've created this narrative that 561 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: most trafficking victims are innocent, upper middle class white women 562 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: getting kidnapped from Target. If you enjoyed this podcast, please 563 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 1: help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an 564 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi, 565 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you at Hello at tango 566 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: dot com. Dis Informed is brought to you by There 567 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of 568 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and Unbust Creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 569 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: Try Harrison is our supervising producer, and engineer. Michael Lamato 570 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget tod. For 571 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 572 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.