1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: On this episode of New World. The home of the 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: Department of Defense is the Pentagon. The Pentagon was built 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: between September nineteen forty one and January nineteen forty three. 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: It is the second largest office building in the world, 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: with approximately six point five million square feet, including five 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: floors above ground and two basement levels. About twenty four 7 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: thousand military and civilian employees and three thousand non defense 8 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: support personnel work at the Pentagon. The fiscal year twenty 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: twenty four Defense Appropriations Act provided eight hundred and twenty 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: five billion dollars in total funding. According to the bill quote, 11 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: this bill makes new investments in our service members and 12 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: military families, and strengthens our deterrent capabilities and global readiness. 13 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: But when you were dealing with eight hundred and twenty 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: five billion dollars and a workforce of twenty seven thousand 15 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: and one building alone, how do you account for all 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: the money that is being spent? And more importantly, how 17 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: can the Pentagon be modernized for the twenty first century? 18 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: Here to discuss this important subject, I'm really pleased to 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: welcome my guest, Bill Hartung, Senior Research Fellow at the 20 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: Quincy Institute for Responsible State draft. He has a new 21 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: paper he just published entitled Private Finance and the Quest 22 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: to Remake Modern Warfare. He also wrote the book Profits 23 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: of War Lockheed Martin and the Making of the Military 24 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: Industrial Complex. Bill. Welcome and thank you for joining me 25 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: on newts World. 26 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: Oh glad to do it. I'm looking forward to our conversation. 27 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: I think reforming the Pentagon for the twenty first century, 28 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: and frankly, all of our national security system, including intelligence, state, 29 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: to proven etc. Maybe the most important challenge for our survival. 30 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the history of 31 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: the Pentagon and how it has either changed or not 32 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: changed since it opened in nineteen forty three. 33 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think going back to Eisenhower, there's been a 34 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: tension between a sort of profit bureaucratic expansion and building 35 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: the weapons we need. And so, you know, as I 36 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 2: was concerned, he didn't think we needed a new bomber. 37 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 2: The Air Force did. There was a major fight over that. 38 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: He was accused of not building enough ICBMs. Ends up, 39 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: they had many more than the Soviet Union, and his 40 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 2: theory was, you know, you needed a balance. You don't 41 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: want to break the bank, but you need these systems. 42 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: You need some people felt like from the speech somehow 43 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: he was against the arms industry. He said it was necessary, 44 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: but that we needed a knowledgeable public to write herd 45 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: on it. And so I think over time it's been 46 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: a mixed bag. I think there's been a lot of 47 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: amazing technologies developed. There's also been a lot of problems 48 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: with cost overruns, dysfunction, and likewise, the morale of the 49 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: troops has changed dramatically at different points. I think what's 50 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 2: missing now is sort of balance. You know, when they 51 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 2: announced the annual budget, you know, they brag about how 52 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 2: much we're spending or they say, well, hey this is 53 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 2: built in my district, but there's not a lot of 54 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: discussion of is it the right strategy, are the troops 55 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: getting the right training, how's morale? There are people who 56 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: focus on that, but usually it's secondary. So to me, 57 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: spending more money isn't the right measure. The measure is 58 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: do you have an effective force and is it tailored 59 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: to the threats you're likely to face. 60 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: I've said for years that it's fascinating that Depentagon, with 61 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: twenty seven thousand people total, was originally designed to be 62 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: running the Second World War, and it was doing so 63 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: with manual typewriter, carbon paper and filing cabinets, and in fact, 64 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: Beatle Smith, when he was the secretary to General Marshall, 65 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: would run experiments with his junior officers and enlisted personnel 66 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: to see how fast they could find papers for Marshall. 67 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: That's nineteen forty three. Today we have iPads, smartphones, laptop computers, 68 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: and I've been trying and I cannot get a good estimate. 69 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: To find somebody to tell me the information exchange ratio 70 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: between a manual typewriter with carbon paper and a laptop 71 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: computer or a smartphone or iPad, But the numbers have 72 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: to be in the order of almost a million to one. 73 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: I mean, your capacity to send out and receive information 74 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: to process it is in a different world. And yet 75 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: with all of that innovation, we have twenty seven thousand 76 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: people in a building that was designed for manual typewriters 77 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: and carbon paper. I suspect if we were to shrink 78 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: the Pentagon into a triangle and put the other two 79 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: thirds of it into a National Defense museum, that we 80 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: would actually have a more effective and more agile system 81 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: than we do right now. 82 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: Well, and he could raise money on tourism from the museum. 83 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: Bill Perry when it was defense sector. I think this 84 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: is a real and not apocryphal, was asked, and he 85 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: didn't realize he had a hot mic. How many people 86 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 2: worked at the Pentagon. He said, well about half. Of course, 87 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: if you cut half, you definite cut the right half. 88 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: You're not the ones who are like helping troops deal 89 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: with PTSD or value in technology with the expertise to 90 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: do so. But I think there hasn't been really an 91 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 2: evaluation either of the civilian personnel at the Pentagon or 92 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: the contractors. When Robert Gates was to a defense he 93 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 2: was asked, how many contractors work for the Pentagons? Not 94 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: really sure, So I think there's got to be almost 95 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 2: like an audit of what they have and what they need. 96 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 2: But of course they can't audit their finances. And some 97 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: of it relates to what you said. The computers don't 98 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: talk to each other. Reuters did a study a couple 99 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: of years ago and one of the offices they had 100 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: to print the things and bring them down the hall 101 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: because the two computers were not compatible. So you know, 102 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: it's a sprawling enterprise. It's difficult to reform. But is 103 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: the effort being made in a serious way. 104 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, the Pentagon failed its sixth annual 105 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: audit in a row. And the audit actually is of 106 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: twenty nine subaudits in the department. Seven of the twenty 107 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: nine actually passed in twenty twenty three, which was the 108 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: same number that passed in twenty twenty two. Why is 109 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: it so hard to get an effective audit? 110 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: I wonder a little bit about incentive. There's this phenomenon 111 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 2: at the end of the year, if you haven't spent 112 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: your money fast enough, you spend it in the last 113 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: month because you don't want to lower budget the next year. 114 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 2: Being an auditor is in the career path to leadership 115 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: at the Pentagon, and I wonder about some of the 116 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: as people age. I mean, you know, when I was 117 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: growing up, probably into my late twenties thirties, there was 118 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: no internet. I had to learn how to use a laptop. 119 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 2: I lost the entire manuscript of one of my books 120 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: because I pressed their own button. You know, have people 121 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: been trained properly in this level of technology and why 122 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: hasn't it been knitted together? And I think a lot 123 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 2: of times it's pulled into what's viewed as the kind 124 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: of glitzier things like big ticket systems and so forth. 125 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: But if you can't keep track of the money, it's 126 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: hard to track fraud. It's kind of a foundation of 127 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: good business practices. They've also cut back contracting officers, who 128 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 2: oversee whether the companies are putting some money in there 129 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: that they don't deserve. I think I've seen this in 130 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: other businesses, where people like to do the fun stuff, 131 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: the substance, the policy, and they don't pay attention to 132 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 2: the nuts and bolts of what makes it possible they 133 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: have an effective organization, you know, like accounting. 134 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: When you think contractors, back in the Eisenhower there were 135 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: a lot more contractors than there are now. As late 136 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: as the Reagan era, there were about fifty major contractors, 137 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: and its shrank so that today basically you're down to 138 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: five big contractors lackeyed Martin, RTX, Boeing, General Dynamics, and 139 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: North of Grumman, who dominate most of the procurement budget. 140 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: So you have these huge corporations matching up against a 141 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: huge bureaucracy in ways that virtually preclude smaller businesses from 142 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: competing and being successful. 143 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, even just the paperwork is too daunting 144 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: for a company that can't hire a contract specialist or 145 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: a lobbyist who knows the ropes because they used to 146 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: do acquisition at the Pentagon. And also the bigger firms 147 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: they tend to be clumsier and less innovative. They're good 148 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: at lobbying for contracts, but they're not as good at 149 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: executing them. So in that sense, the push for emerging 150 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: tech and new entrants is logical. 151 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: West August, Deputy Defense Secretary Kathleen Hicks launched what she 152 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: called the Replicator Initiative to develop new high tech weapons, 153 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: and I think in the absence of very significant reforms, 154 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: you have to worry about the recent track record with 155 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: the F thirty five, which took twenty three years from 156 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: conception until it was finally approved for full right production. 157 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: Twenty three years. 158 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was around when they started that. They're calling 159 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: it the Joint Strike Fighter, and you know McDonald douglas's 160 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: been on it. They don't exist anymore. They got observed 161 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 2: by Boeing when it came out. They said, well, this 162 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: is going to be a new form of procurement. It's 163 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 2: going to be cheaper, it's going to be quicker, it's 164 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: going to revolutionize the way we buy weapons, which is 165 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: kind of what we're hearing about Replicator. That doesn't mean 166 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: we'll get the same result. It just means you need 167 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 2: to back up that rhetoric with performance. 168 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: There ought to be some ability to set as a 169 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: goal having a procurement system inside the cycle time of technology, 170 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: because otherwise you're always going to be procuring the last 171 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: generation technology and you're already in some ways be facing 172 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: block obsolescence even before you get there. 173 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: A lot of systems Now it's not f thirty five levels, 174 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: but it's many years, sometimes five to ten, and so 175 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 2: at that point, you know, sometimes they have to retrofit 176 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 2: newer technology than what they originally anticipated. That's a challenge. 177 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 2: I think the kind of twofold thing is how to 178 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 2: move more quickly so you've got the current technology, and 179 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: how to make sure it's going to work, what's the 180 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: way to test it? That doesn't forever, but it gives 181 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 2: you a gauge of whether you're influenting things that are 182 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: going to do as advertised. 183 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: Isn't the rise of artificial intelligence going to make Silicon 184 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: Valley and the various companies that resemble and grow out 185 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: of Silicon Valley. Even more important, it's a real shift 186 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: from sort of the Ford Motor Company General motors generation 187 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: to suddenly dealing with people like Google or other systems 188 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: that are generating these enormously expensive and very sophisticated methods 189 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: of computation. But isn't that almost an inevitable direction if 190 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: we're going to maintain cutting edge military capability. 191 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'm told by people in the sector that 192 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: those companies are more hospitable to tech people to work at, 193 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: and that the ways that the big companies work just 194 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: don't appeal. Just the actual day to day rules rags, 195 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 2: you know, how they work. And some of the big 196 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: firms that bought up innovative firms in cyber other areas, 197 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: the innovative output just plummeted. So what I mentioned in 198 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: part is w Secretary Hicks has said we're going to 199 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 2: build these things in large quantities. And we've heard a 200 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 2: lot about the software piece, But you know who's going 201 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: to build them? Is it usual companies, is it others? 202 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: I'd like to hear a little bit of that end. 203 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: And also, it's much more lucrative to work in the 204 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: private sector on these things than in the Pentagon. So 205 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 2: how does the Pentagon make sure they can evaluate it. 206 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: I think there's challenges and also the question of complex 207 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 2: software and how do you kind of make sure it's 208 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: built with redundancy so it doesn't fail at a key moment. 209 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 2: But I think that's certainly where things are heading. I 210 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: don't know how quickly. There's actually a kind of manifesto 211 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: that Andreil, one of the big companies, has on their website. 212 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 2: It basically says, thank you, Lockeied Martin, you served us 213 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: well in the Cold War. Now step aside and we're 214 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 2: taking over, which I'm sure thrills the executives at Lockheed Martin. 215 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: I just watched the Boeing spacecraft finally get launched after 216 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: weeks and weeks and weeks of trying to get at work, 217 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: and you compare that with SpaceX and the routine launch 218 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: of things, and you're just talking about two different worlds. 219 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: These large corporations are as bureaucratic as government, and aggressive 220 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: lean entrepreneurial companies just dance around them. It seems to me. 221 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's different theories on how Boeing has come to 222 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: this point because they're having problems on all fronts, their 223 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 2: defense and their civilian. One theory is they moved at 224 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: a certain point from being run by engineers who understood 225 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: the technology, a little more cost concern and then sort 226 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: of money people who just wanted to maximize shareholder value 227 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: and so forth, and put less emphasis on watching how 228 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: the technology has being developed. I think the emerging firms, 229 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: my one concern is like they can do amazing things, 230 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 2: but is there a limit. They seem to think they 231 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 2: can do almost anything, and I think there's got to 232 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 2: be a counterbalance to that. But certainly in some areas 233 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: they've demonstrated they can move much more quickly, and there 234 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 2: were skeptics of SpaceX and so forth. So it's to 235 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 2: be evaluated. 236 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: As we go your paper Private finance and the question 237 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: we make modern warfare. You do see a dramatic increase 238 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: in venture capital moving into this space, trying to find startups, 239 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: trying to find the kind of fast growth companies that 240 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: might both make a difference and make a big profit. 241 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: That's a relatively new development, isn't it. 242 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: Yes? Actually, Well, going back to Ash Carter, the late 243 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: Ash Carter, maybe a decade ago, he did kind of 244 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: an outreach campaign to Silicon Valley because there had reached 245 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 2: a point. Although there was military money that helped create 246 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: Silicon Valley, they were moving faster, they could make more 247 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: on commercial products. They didn't like to impentent on paperwork. 248 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: They had some folks who just didn't want to work 249 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: on military things. So Carter did kind of a charm offensive. 250 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: And also there were some shifts in leadership people who 251 00:14:54,920 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: are more interested in military issues. So it's really maybe 252 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: the last four or five years. Pentagon has a Defense 253 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: Innovation unit that has a Silicon Valley office. They're starting 254 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: a strategic capital entity within the Pentagon. They've talked about 255 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: streamlining regulations and so forth. I don't know how far 256 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: they've gotten on that. And once Secretary Hicks gave her 257 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: a big speech on this, she sort of hedged a 258 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: little bit because said, well, of course we need the 259 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: existing systems as well, and I think we don't. I mean, 260 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: aircraft cares are very vulnerable. There's a lot of things 261 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: that could be put aside for new approaches, and my 262 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 2: fear is that because of vested interest, they might try 263 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: to do both, which I think would just slow and 264 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: confuse the process. 265 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: There's just a lot of things out there where you 266 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: see people trying desperately to hold onto the past. There's 267 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: a great story that was in a book by Colonel 268 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: Johnson called Fast Tanks and Heavy Bombers. In nineteen forty, 269 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: after the German army had run through Poland and run 270 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: through Belgium and the Netherlands and France, General Marshall, who's 271 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: the head of a war department on the military side, asked 272 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: the Commandant of Cavalry what they had done to rethink 273 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: the role of cavalry given the rise of tanks, etc. 274 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: And the guy came in and he said, you know, 275 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: we've studied this a great deal and we have concluded 276 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: that what we need is trucks that can take the 277 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: horses close to the ford edge of battle so that 278 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: they are totally fresh when we get there. And Marshall 279 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: at corner Johnson's version. Marshall looked at him and said, 280 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: this has been enormously helpful. And as he left, he 281 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: turned to Beetlesmith and said, I want you to retire 282 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: him as of five o'clock today, and I want you 283 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: to close the office of Commandant of Cavalry because they 284 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: couldn't adapt to a world that clearly was making everything 285 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: they had done obsolete, and I think some of that 286 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: going on. If you really look out at the kind 287 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: of breakthroughs we're seeing, it's going to be a very 288 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: different kind of combat, particularly when you get to big 289 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 1: countries engaged in big combat. It's going to be a 290 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: lot more space, it's going to be a lot more 291 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 1: the use of artificial intelligence and self guided systems and 292 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: what have you. And I think that not just us, 293 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: the Chinese, the Russians, everybody. It's really hard for people 294 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: who spent their entire lifetime getting really good at something 295 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: to then recognize it maybe that's the past, not the future. 296 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been historical examples. After World War Two, when 297 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 2: the services felt like there was going to be a 298 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: big investment in nuclear weapons. The Navy had this idea 299 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 2: for super carriers they could plunk a ballistic missile ont 300 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 2: they were like much larger than existing ones. They did't 301 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 2: make a lot of sense, but everybody was throwing out 302 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 2: their ideas. I think with respect to the new emerging issues, 303 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 2: the Army is less relevant to dealing with China, I believe, 304 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: But they're investing in long struct missiles and so forth. Well, 305 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: you know, do those have to be operated by the army, 306 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 2: let's clear, you know. So, yeah, I think there's a 307 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 2: kind of a notion to justify what you have. You 308 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: strap on new technology to an existing platform when that's 309 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 2: not really the best way to use it. There's going 310 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 2: to be a lot of that going on. 311 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: From your standpoint, what are the key steps we should 312 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: take to fundamentally reform the defense system and move it 313 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: into a much more dynamic and much more effective system. 314 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's two issues. One is what's our 315 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 2: overall strategy. Do we want to be able to fight Russia, China, 316 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: or on North Korea or on terror or is there 317 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 2: a different approach where we set clearer goals and fewer missions. 318 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 2: That's something that's barely debated in the Congress. There was 319 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: a whole hearing on how to move on our nuclear 320 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: strategy and the majority of the members bragged about weapons 321 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: built in their state. They didn't engage the issue. So 322 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 2: we have to deal with that, and part of that 323 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: is influence bureaucracies of the entities that profit from this, 324 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 2: and somehow they've got to become players in the debate, 325 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: not attempt to control the debate. And so I think 326 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: probably different regulations for when and how you can go 327 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: from the pentagon to industry, how much money you can 328 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 2: throw at the members who make the decisions. When you 329 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: do studies, make sure you've got some independent actors, not 330 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: just the companies that will build whatever the study recommends. 331 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: And I don't think it's easy to do that, and 332 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 2: you can't kind of dictate that completely tells people what 333 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 2: to do. But I think more transparency. Part of it 334 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: is I think education, I think, and sort of people 335 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: being more motivated to think about these things. I think 336 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 2: most people feel like, well, the experts will handle that, 337 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: or they think, yeah, the system's problematic, but you know, 338 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: what can I do about it? And there's dissenters inside 339 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 2: the system who don't always get heard. I knew some 340 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: of the folks who helped develop things like the F 341 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: sixteen and the A ten, which operated well over time, 342 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 2: weren't so complicated they couldn't feel them. And their point 343 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,479 Speaker 2: was a lot of it is your people. Are they 344 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: well trained and do they have systems that are going 345 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 2: to operate when they need them? You know, the F 346 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 2: thirty five, at some points less than half of them 347 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: are able to even fly because of all the maintenance issues. 348 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to move to a point about Lockheed 349 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: Martin and how they shape US defense policy and the 350 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 1: whole notion which eisen Awer talked about of a military 351 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: industrial complex and your book Profits of War from twenty 352 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: twelve in your mind, to what extent are the large 353 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: contractors controllers of strategic choice at least as much as 354 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: the uniform bureaucracy. 355 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 2: You know, In terms of our overall policy, I think 356 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: their role is much more limited. But in terms of 357 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 2: what we build and to some degree, our strategy that 358 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: I think they have more influence because they'll be on 359 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 2: advisor your bodies. They'll have an insight line to the 360 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: people writing the specs and monitoring their work. But the 361 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 2: thing is that if you get attached to something like 362 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: the F thirty five or the aircraft carrier lobby coalition, 363 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 2: you're making the system very rigid. So it's hard to 364 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: cut back. But it's also hard to introduce new technologies. 365 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 2: I think that's maybe the biggest influence. It constrains our 366 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 2: ability to think more broadly about strategy, what weapons to build, 367 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 2: and to some degree, if you don't have the right systems, 368 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: it's hard to fight in the correct way. In some 369 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 2: of these conflicts. 370 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: Have you seen developments, whether in Ukraine or the Middle 371 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: East that have surprised you about emerging systems. 372 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting, it seems sort of double edged. There's 373 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: certain systems like the javelin that have performed quite remarkably 374 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 2: in Ukraine. But the Wall Street Journal did analysis of 375 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 2: some of the small drones coming from the startups, and 376 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 2: the Ukrainians said, well, they're kind of brittle, they're kind 377 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 2: of expensive, and they were actually buying Chinese drones that 378 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: were cheaper and more reliable. So I think there's still 379 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: a mindset of more technical capability is better, but sometimes 380 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 2: it comes with more maintenance, more vulnerability. I think there's 381 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 2: going to be an issue now with supply of Ukraine 382 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 2: because I think the Russian systems are inferior, but they 383 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 2: can crank them out, and I think some of our 384 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 2: systems they're superior in terms of performance, but it takes 385 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: longer to produce them. So there's going to be a 386 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 2: whole reckoning on that front. And it does kind of 387 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 2: harken back to some of the military form ideas. Build 388 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 2: something that's viable, that works, don't put too many bells 389 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 2: and whistles, make sure people know how to use it 390 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 2: may be superior to just technology for its own sake. 391 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: I think that part of that is sort of an 392 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: American model. Sometimes you can do adequately for not very 393 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: much money, but to do brilliantly is really expensive. 394 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes it's just a different war than you expect. 395 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 2: I mean, improvise explosive devices interacted so much damage to 396 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 2: our troops even though we had the targeting the aircraft 397 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 2: and so forth, and the threat came from another direction. 398 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: Bill, I really want to thank you for joining me. 399 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: Your new paper, Private Finance and the Quest to Remake 400 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: Modern Warfare is available now on the Quincy Institute for 401 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: Responsible state Craft website at Quincy i nst dot org. 402 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate you taking the time focusing your 403 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: exportability and helping think about the kind of large changes 404 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: we need if we're going to keep America safe. So 405 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 1: thank you very much for being with me. 406 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to have this kind of conversation on 407 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 2: the Hill. I mean, I know there's people who know it, 408 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: but it doesn't happen enough. 409 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: I think that's right. And when I was a very 410 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: junior member, we created the Military Reform Caucus because I 411 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: had some pretty impressive people, I mean Dick Cheney, Sam Nunn, 412 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: a whole range of people, Gary Hart, and our theory 413 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: was that Reagan would get the extra money because that 414 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: was the momentum, and I and Weinberger knew how to 415 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: do that, but they wouldn't necessarily spend it very well. 416 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: And so we really worked for about five years on 417 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: how to reform things, and CSIS, the Center for Strategic 418 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: International Studies, played a big role in helping funded and 419 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: putting together the think tanks and what have you. And 420 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 1: out of that came the Goldwater Nichols Reform, which most 421 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: people today would think was a very useful move towards 422 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: a more integrated military, but as a sign of how 423 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: things work when we propose tho it, every active duty 424 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: four star opposed it, and Secretary Weinberger opposed it, and 425 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: President Reagan opposed it, and we had to all may 426 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,959 Speaker 1: just win because it was clear things weren't working. Then 427 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: people said, you know, you just got affect something. And 428 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: I think we're going to end up in a similar 429 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: kind of situation where the rate of change is going 430 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: to be so great that we need people like you 431 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: helping us actually think it's not about money, it's not 432 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: about power, it's not about lobbyists smoothing over dinner. You 433 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: actually have to have some people who think and who 434 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: come up with ideas. 435 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: I'm also for more thinking of think tanks, you know, 436 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: as opposed to just pushing out positions. 437 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: I appreciate so much you as a citizen helping develop 438 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: these kind of ideas, and I hope people will take 439 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,959 Speaker 1: seriously the need to have the kind of both hearings 440 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill, but also informal breakfast and lunches and 441 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: dinners and conversation places where members can get caught up 442 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: on these kind of ideas. And I appreciate the work 443 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: you've done and the amount of your life you've spent 444 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 1: trying to in our national security requirements. 445 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 2: Well, it was great talking to you. 446 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Bill Harton. You can get 447 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: a link to his paper, Private Finance and the Quest 448 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: to Remake Modern Warfare on our show page at neutworld 449 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: dot com. Newtworld is produced by Gingish three sixty and iHeartMedia. 450 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 451 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 452 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If 453 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying newts World, I hope you'll go to 454 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and 455 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 456 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: all about. Right now listeners the neut World concenter for 457 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,719 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at gingristhree sixty dot com 458 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm newd Gingrich. This is neut World.