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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff,

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Speaker 2: the only podcast that is today about an anarchist spy network,

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Speaker 2: unless you're listening to a different podcast about an anarchist spy

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Speaker 2: network that came out today, in which case you have

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Speaker 2: access to podcasts that I don't know about, and you

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Speaker 2: should tell me about them because they sound cool, unless

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Speaker 2: you're not allowed to know about them because it's a

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Speaker 2: spy agency and you're not supposed to know. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Margaret Kiljoy, and my guest is Robert Evans.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Robert, Hey, Margaret. You know, I really everyone at

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Speaker 1: corporate fought with us a lot, and we made that

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Speaker 1: entire thing the title of this podcast. You said a

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Speaker 1: lot about how you can't have a title that long.

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Speaker 1: It's not really a title. Please guys, stop please, But

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Speaker 1: we just ignored them. We just ignored them and it's

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Speaker 1: worked out great well.

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Speaker 2: We we actually just left them voicemails with the name

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Speaker 2: of the podcast over and over again until they conceded. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and we swore on an armored train.

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Speaker 1: I'm really glad they were. They funded us buying that

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Speaker 1: armored train. That's that's come in handy so much more.

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Speaker 1: Often than I expected it would, I know, I know,

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Speaker 1: and it worked out against them that we got they

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Speaker 1: got it for us. So we're on part four of

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Speaker 1: a four parter about Maria Nikki Farova and anarchy in

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Speaker 1: the Ukraine, which isn't actually the Ukraine. It's just the

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Speaker 1: only way that the pun works. We've been through this

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Speaker 1: and part I think my Ukrainian friends will forgive us

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Speaker 1: on behalf, you know, for the sake of the pun,

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Speaker 1: you can justify a lot, I hope.

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Speaker 2: So they're they're having a hard time right now, and

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Speaker 2: I wish them all the luck in the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wish them all of the luck and a

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Speaker 1: significantly more of the missiles.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope that they've upgraded from horse drawn machine guns.

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Speaker 1: To horse drawn sam morses with guns.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, if you want to run a war, you need intelligence,

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Speaker 2: and there were a bunch of anarchists already quite familiar

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Speaker 2: with intelligence and counterintelligence because they you know, I'll run

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Speaker 2: a reasonably successful terrorist campaign against the Czars for a

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Speaker 2: very long time. Take for example, Oh, I should have

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Speaker 2: done the thing where he make you bring up a photo.

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Speaker 2: Are you at a computer?

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans, I have been on computers and I can

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Speaker 1: be on one again.

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Speaker 2: One am I type in I want you to type

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Speaker 2: in lev l Ev space zado v Zatoff and look

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Speaker 2: at a photo and tell me if I told you

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Speaker 2: this is the name wow of a Jewish anarchist gangster spy,

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Speaker 2: you would not be surprised.

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Speaker 1: Yeah at all? Well, you know, because you know how

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Speaker 1: I can tell he was a good gangster. It's just

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Speaker 1: from this photo. You could not strangle this man. I

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Speaker 1: don't care what kind of tools you have on hand.

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Speaker 1: This is an unstranglable man. This guy has an Alex

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Speaker 1: Jones grade neck, like just astounding, astounding neck game.

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Speaker 2: And also he knows that he could kill that photographer

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Speaker 2: at any moment, but he doesn't want to.

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Speaker 1: No, he chooses not to. But he is confident. He

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Speaker 1: has the kind of he has the kind of confidence

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Speaker 1: you only get with you're like, oh yeah, no, I

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Speaker 1: could strangle that man, but he could not strangle me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it can only go one direction. So this man

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Speaker 2: is real fucking interesting. He is the most spy motherfucker

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Speaker 2: I have ever seen among the anarchist recks. He was

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Speaker 2: only twelve when the nineteen oh fives.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, that sentence ends would have been great, okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, when the nineteen oh five revolution broke out,

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Speaker 2: but that didn't stop him from joining the revolution, also

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Speaker 2: being twelve and as twelve, yeah, it also didn't stop

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Speaker 2: him from having to go to work at a metallurgy factory.

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Speaker 2: I think he's a machinist when he's.

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Speaker 1: Twelve, sure, good age for it.

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Speaker 2: By nineteen ten, he's seventeen years old and he joins

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Speaker 2: an anarchist communist bank robber crew and they are lasting.

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Speaker 2: Like nineteen ten is like past the peak, right, like

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Speaker 2: nineteen oh eight is when like everyone was getting busted.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, it's like it's like being in third wave ska.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. He he doesn't get popped until nineteen thirteen.

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Speaker 2: This makes him like the last anarchist bank robber going

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Speaker 2: at this point. He was released in nineteen seventeen, just

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Speaker 2: like everyone else, and he hit the ground running. He

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Speaker 2: fought all over Ukraine. He specialized soon enough in spreading

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Speaker 2: insurgencies against German occupation armies. So he's a fucking spy

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Speaker 2: by nineteen nineteen. In March, he and some others, including

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Speaker 2: Makhno's wife, a woman named Halna Kuzmenko, is the woman

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Speaker 2: who the machine gunist who kills all the rapists. They

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Speaker 2: form the contras Vedka, which is the anarchist counterintelligence service.

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Speaker 2: It's decentralized, it's called together when it's needed for specific tasks.

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Speaker 2: It mostly avoids becoming basically the checko with the black flag.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about when they fail at that.

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Speaker 2: But it's a contradiction that they struggle with, how do

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Speaker 2: we do this without becoming the checko with a black flag?

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Speaker 2: And what did they do? God, what did they not do?

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Speaker 2: They tracked down nationalists and white collaborators and captured cities.

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Speaker 2: That was the first task ever put to them. They

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Speaker 2: took over a city and they were like, oh, we

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Speaker 2: probably need someone to figure out who's like trying to

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Speaker 2: overthrow us. It also ran spies to track the movements

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Speaker 2: of enemy armies. It foiled assassination attempts. It investigated who

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Speaker 2: was instigating the programs, like that's part of how Makno

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Speaker 2: managed to go around and kill all the people putting

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Speaker 2: on programs, which wasn't They didn't just kill their own

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Speaker 2: people who are accused of killing of doing programs. They

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Speaker 2: would like track down a nationalist leader accused of doing

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Speaker 2: programs and track him down and kill him in the streets,

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Speaker 2: like not even in a war, just fucking.

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Speaker 1: Kill that guy.

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Speaker 2: Fair They organized mass defections from the Red Army to

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Speaker 2: the Black Army. They robbed banks in White Army territory.

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Speaker 2: They foiled a white coup within the Black Army. They

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Speaker 2: also foiled a nationalist coup within the Black Army. Or

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Speaker 2: I wrote white coup and I meant nationalists coup. I

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Speaker 2: actually think that's when one of the two, one of

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Speaker 2: the two. Fair enough, it foiled a coup. So there

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Speaker 2: was a big typhus outbreak at one point during the war,

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Speaker 2: and they went behind enemy lines to buy medicine. They

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Speaker 2: organized units within the White Army to start sabotaging the

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Speaker 2: White war effort. When the Black Army took the city

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Speaker 2: of Burdonsk, they did so because of the spied network.

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Speaker 2: Worked with local fishermen to lead the uprising. It turns

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Speaker 2: out if you do organizing properly, you could do it

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Speaker 2: awful lot of the things that people think you need

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Speaker 2: a nation state to do. Yeah, like it had never

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Speaker 2: even occurred to me. Can anarchist run a spy network?

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Speaker 2: But the answers yes, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, there you go. Honestly, there's in some ways I

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Speaker 1: would say being a spy lends itself very well to

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Speaker 1: anarchy because it's really easy for your spy network to

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Speaker 1: be busted or infiltrated if they have a hierarchy. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. It is unclear how dirty they got their hands,

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Speaker 2: at least in terms of moral compromises. It had several

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Speaker 2: incarnations because of the ebb of the flow was really intense,

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Speaker 2: so they would like like there wouldn't even be a

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Speaker 2: Black Army for months at a time, and then they'd

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Speaker 2: get their shit together and have a country again, and

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Speaker 2: then they would lose their country and then they'd come

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Speaker 2: back and do it again. But during one era of it,

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Speaker 2: it was led by this left SR guide. There's actually

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Speaker 2: a lot of the left srs joined the Black Army

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Speaker 2: right because they're like anti Bolshevik, but they're socialist revolutionaries.

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Speaker 2: This left SR guid Dmitri Popoff had a reputation of

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Speaker 2: torture and executions for a while, and all the anarchists,

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Speaker 2: basically all of his comrades, were like, you can't do

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Speaker 2: that anymore, and his actions became more limited. Basically, they

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Speaker 2: had started to become the Cheka, and then the regular

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Speaker 2: Black Army stepped in and was like, we're not going

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Speaker 2: to let you do that. You can only do military

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Speaker 2: operations now. Makno, for his part, was apparently becoming slightly

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Speaker 2: tyrannical at this point. He supported the contras Vedka at

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Speaker 2: their worst, but it was his own staff that kept

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Speaker 2: him in check. At one point, Makno ordered the contros

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Speaker 2: Vedka to shut down a Bolshevik paper and shoot the

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Speaker 2: editorial staff because they had run article against the anarchists,

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Speaker 2: but his own anarchists subordinates were like, fuck you, we

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Speaker 2: have freedom of the fucking press in this country, like

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Speaker 2: in this or I don't if they call it a

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Speaker 2: country or not, big social organizing space that they had

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Speaker 2: with millions of people had freedom of the press even

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Speaker 2: though the leader didn't want them to, which actually shows

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Speaker 2: part of how they like. That's the checks and balances

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Speaker 2: in a lot of ways against Makno is that one

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Speaker 2: he is ideologically committed to anti authoritarianism and even like

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Speaker 2: running letting Bolsheviks run their papers. Of course the tolerance

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Speaker 2: paradox right, because yeah they're running articles like we should

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Speaker 2: have authority, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. It also, this is reminded me

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Speaker 1: of something, Margaret. Yeah, I think we should launch a

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Speaker 1: new podcast on this network that's entirely dedicated to the

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Speaker 1: Olympic gymnasts of the world and hosted by two Czechoslovakian men,

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Speaker 1: and we'll call it Checks and Balances.

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Speaker 2: God damn it, that was a good bit. Yeah. And

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Speaker 2: it's easy to have moral values when it's easy, but

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Speaker 2: it's harder to have them when it's hard. And this

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Speaker 2: is not to condemn Makno specifically. I can see why

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Speaker 2: he did what he did, but instead it's to like

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Speaker 2: laud the people who, in the middle of a war

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Speaker 2: were like, hey, when we say freedom of speech, we

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Speaker 2: fucking mean freedom of speech. Like, you can kill the

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Speaker 2: people who are trying to kill you, we can go

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Speaker 2: to war, we can rob the rich. We can't tell

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Speaker 2: people that they're not allowed to run a newspaper. So

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Speaker 2: Marusia by nineteen nineteen, in May, she's back into the fight.

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Speaker 2: Her and fifty nine of her friends come together to

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Speaker 2: form a new detachment, including a bunch of anarchists who'd

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Speaker 2: been chased out of Russia, including her husband, is now

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Speaker 2: no longer happily working with the Bolsheviks, and I think

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Speaker 2: this is the first time he's serving under her command,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not certain. It also includes this new group

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Speaker 2: of sixty anarchists include a lot of the anarchist spies,

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Speaker 2: the folks who are experienced specifically in underground activity. Because

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Speaker 2: these new fighters want to do something different, The war

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Speaker 2: against the Red Army feels unwinnable, so they build a

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Speaker 2: clandestine network comparable to what they've been doing after the

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Speaker 2: nineteen oh five revolution, but they're doing it while a

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Speaker 2: successful revolution is also happening. The new clandestine network names

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Speaker 2: its units things like Hurricane and Death, and they run

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Speaker 2: around set about freeing prisoners and blowing shit up and

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Speaker 2: calling for people to rise against the Bolsheviks. Makno, for

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Speaker 2: his part, refuses clandestinity. He has an army in a country,

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Speaker 2: Why would he fucking do that, right, which also means

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Speaker 2: he has to play nicer with potential allies, including the

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Speaker 2: ones who keep fucking him over, like the Bolsheviks. They

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Speaker 2: just declared him illegal in June nineteen nineteen, and he's

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Speaker 2: starting to like honestly, it seems like starting to kind

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Speaker 2: of lose it at this point. I don't fucking blame him.

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Speaker 2: He sends this guy to go become the new contact

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Speaker 2: with a supply line and sends him with a ton

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Speaker 2: of cash and is like, hey, if you fuck up

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Speaker 2: this accounting, I'm going to shoot you because I don't

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Speaker 2: want the Bolsheviks to have any excuse to claim we're stealing,

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Speaker 2: even though the Bolsheviks have already tried to assassinate him.

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Speaker 2: At this point, the guy who's sent to do the accounting,

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Speaker 2: he has about three million rubles on him. Mari Usia

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Speaker 2: tracks him down on a train and is like, hey,

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Speaker 2: give me that money so he can continue the underground struggle.

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Speaker 2: I've got thirty armed terrorists with me, okay, and he's

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Speaker 2: like ah shit, trains leaving Gota Goo bye, and he

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Speaker 2: like fucks off. He gets away. So mari Usia shows

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Speaker 2: up to Makno and is like, you need to fund

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Speaker 2: our underground and he's like, nah, I'm good. We're done

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Speaker 2: with you accounts here. Very most likely, they pull guns

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Speaker 2: on each other and he either gives her a quarter

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Speaker 2: million rubles or he gives are five thousand rubles very

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Speaker 2: different accounts. So she robs Makno at gunpoint is what happens,

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Speaker 2: and they either get a fair amount of money or

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Speaker 2: almost nothing. But her new unit is now financed and

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Speaker 2: they have a plan. They're going to split into three

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Speaker 2: groups of twenty. One is going to go to Siberia

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Speaker 2: to kill the White general there, one is going to

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Speaker 2: go to Crimea to kill the White general there, and

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Speaker 2: one's going to head to Kharkoff to free a bunch

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Speaker 2: of anarchists arrested by the Cheka and blow up the

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Speaker 2: local chek A headquarters. And not a bad plan.

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Speaker 1: Not a bad plan, ambitious too, Like I feel pretty

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Speaker 1: good when I managed to both get in a workout

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Speaker 1: and go to the grocery store. This is significantly more

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Speaker 1: ambitious than that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the timing doesn't work out mostly, but they they're

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Speaker 2: really good at the shit. They get a lot of

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Speaker 2: stuff done. And this was either entirely autonomous from the

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Speaker 2: macn of Gina according to one group of people, or

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Speaker 2: it was part of the spy work and connected to it.

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Speaker 2: So it was clearly not happening with Makno's grace, which

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Speaker 2: is actually makes it more interesting. Honestly, these sixty are

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Speaker 2: some of the hardest motherfuckers in the whole war. This

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Speaker 2: is the if I was making the movie of this,

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Speaker 2: it would be about these sixty. Take for example, Maxim Chernek,

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Speaker 2: who was a poor Jewish anarchist barber from Poland. He'd

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Speaker 2: fought in nineteen oh five in that Black Banner group

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Speaker 2: from Bali Stock that we've talked about so much on

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Speaker 2: this show. He went into exile with his partner Rosa

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Speaker 2: and his kids, instead up a barber shop in Chicago,

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Speaker 2: and then worked with the IWW. Because you can take

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Speaker 2: a drink now, because I worked IWW into any story

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Speaker 2: I fucking want. They're fucking everywhere.

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Speaker 1: M hm.

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Speaker 2: He went home to Russia in the nineteen seventeen Revolution

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Speaker 2: and he fought in every fucking theater of that war.

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Speaker 2: Then he joined that anarchist spy group and he was

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Speaker 2: staunchly anti Bolshevik. He foiled an assassination attempt against Makno

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Speaker 2: and then he had to go underground when the Bolsheviks

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Speaker 2: outlawed the Maknivists, and just to follow him to his

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Speaker 2: conclusion because he's kind of interesting, and it also traces

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Speaker 2: one of these three groups of twenty. He joins the

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Speaker 2: new underground organization and he goes to Siberia to blow

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Speaker 2: up a general. He finds that the general is already

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Speaker 2: lost by the time he gets there, so he joins

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Speaker 2: the local partisan fighters to continue the war. Later in

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty one, the Bolsheviks arrest him and he hunger

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Speaker 2: strikes a bunch. He gets exiled to Siberia and finally

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Speaker 2: they're like, fine, you can live, just get the fuck

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Speaker 2: out of Russia. So he moves to Warsaw and he

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Speaker 2: opens a barber shop, and he keeps helping the now

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Speaker 2: underground anarchists in Russia. Then he moved to Paris, got

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Speaker 2: into an argument with Makno about politics, moved to Buenos Aires,

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Speaker 2: and then disappears from history. So some of these people

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Speaker 2: survive and get to be barber's and maybe your barber

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Speaker 2: is an anarchist spy from Russia who knows.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, mine definitely is. You know, he keeps saying

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Speaker 1: he was born in Oklahoma, but no, I don't believe him.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a city called Oklahoma, Siberia.

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Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, at Oklahoma, we call it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. The weather's the same, fewer tornadoes maybe in Siberia.

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Speaker 2: And so that's that's one of the groups of twenty

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Speaker 2: They go to Siberia and just get involved in stuff,

291
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Speaker 2: but they don't need to defeat the white generals are

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Speaker 2: I think he's already been arrested by the Bolsheviks and

293
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Speaker 2: like he's lost. As for the Go Rescue our Friends group,

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Speaker 2: they show up to find the anarchists already executed and

295
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Speaker 2: the Cheka have already fled the city. I think they're

296
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Speaker 2: afraid of retaliation because of what they've just done, but

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Speaker 2: they might be or just done, and they moved on,

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Speaker 2: so the anarchists not to be deterred. They go on

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Speaker 2: to do the thing that like half the anarchists during

300
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Speaker 2: this era want to do. And I've done entire long

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Speaker 2: episodes about people who do about a tenth of what

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Speaker 2: these people are.

303
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Speaker 3: About to do.

304
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Speaker 2: Entire Hollywood movies have been made about people who do

305
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Speaker 2: a tenth of what this group is about to do,

306
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Speaker 2: and we barely know about it. They moved to Moscow.

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Speaker 2: They robbed four Bolshevik banks in rapid secession of tens

308
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Speaker 2: of millions of rubles. Then they set up a massive

309
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Speaker 2: underground network of propaganda and action groups, print shops for propaganda,

310
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Speaker 2: print shops for counterfeit documents, safe houses, bomb factories. The

311
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Speaker 2: whole deal spread across a dozen Russian and Lotvian cities.

312
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Speaker 2: They infiltrated so deep, they infiltrated the Cheka. They spread

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Speaker 2: propaganda amongst the workers to count the Bolshevik lies about

314
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Speaker 2: Makhnov China and the anarchists. And they're just I mean,

315
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Speaker 2: their analysis is correct, They say you. The Bolsheviks are

316
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Speaker 2: in power in Russia. But what has changed. The factories

317
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Speaker 2: in the lands are still not in the hands of

318
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Speaker 2: the workers, but in those of the state boss. The

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Speaker 2: wage worker. The foundation of the bourgeois order continues to exist,

320
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Speaker 2: and this is why hunger, cold and unemployment are inevitable.

321
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Speaker 2: Because of the necessity to endure everything for a brighter future.

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Speaker 2: And with the excuse of defending what has already been achieved,

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Speaker 2: an enormous bureaucratic apparatus has been created. The right to

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Speaker 2: strike has been abolished, freedom of speech, assembly, and the

325
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Speaker 2: press have been eliminated. Wow, And then you know, propaganda's

326
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Speaker 2: one thing. The other thing they do is talk a

327
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Speaker 2: bomb into a meeting of a ton of Bolshevik leaders,

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Speaker 2: the Moscow Bolshevik Committee in proper fight club style. They

329
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Speaker 2: have the maps of the building because the informants, the

330
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Speaker 2: people who work in that building are down with the anarchists.

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Speaker 2: Sadly Lenin wasn't at the meeting, but they killed twelve

332
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Speaker 2: and injured one hundred and fifty of the people conspiring

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Speaker 2: to rule the working class.

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Speaker 1: Hey pretty good bombing, I know.

335
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Speaker 2: Except here's the problem with almost every bombing that it

336
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Speaker 2: was used to justify crackdowns.

337
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Speaker 1: Sure, that's what bombings are usually used for, one of

338
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Speaker 1: the things.

339
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Speaker 2: Yeah, one day we're going to do an episode about

340
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Speaker 2: the guy who started the Reichstag fire because he actually

341
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,439
Speaker 2: was like, oh, an ernest leftist trying to do a

342
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,480
Speaker 2: very useful attack on Nazis.

343
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just kind of out of other ideas. Sure.

344
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Speaker 2: Yeah. The first crackdowns that happened, though, is that the

345
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Speaker 2: government because the anarchists don't immediately release the like hey

346
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Speaker 2: we did it memo, so they start blaming the whites

347
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Speaker 2: and rounding up and like killing all the white prisoners

348
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Speaker 2: that they have in the jails, and so the anarchists

349
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,679
Speaker 2: have to be like, no, no, no, is us, we

350
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,360
Speaker 2: did it. Fuck the whites. We threw the bomb. Oops,

351
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Speaker 2: And then the clandestine anarchists are like, all right, we're

352
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Speaker 2: going to blow up the Kremlin on the second anniversary

353
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Speaker 2: of the October Revolution. This would be the key point

354
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Speaker 2: of the movie I would make about this. Every what

355
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Speaker 2: important is going to be there. We'll got rid of

356
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Speaker 2: them all at once. We need literally a ton of explosives.

357
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Speaker 2: So they dutifully start gathering and preparing one ton of bomb.

358
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Speaker 2: The Cheka are onto them. I think they caught and

359
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,480
Speaker 2: tortured one guy and that led to a list of

360
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Speaker 2: names in safe houses. Pretty much the entire Moscow branch.

361
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Speaker 2: About sixty people at this point died in gunfights or

362
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Speaker 2: in the dungeons of the Cheka. According to the Czech

363
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,720
Speaker 2: A report, none of the anarchists surrendered without resistance. One

364
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,119
Speaker 2: of them did your friend Gadson flag snake bomb?

365
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Speaker 1: Oh good, love it when people play that move.

366
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Speaker 2: The last safe house, twenty anarchists fought a two and

367
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Speaker 2: a half hour gun battle with the Cheka before they

368
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Speaker 2: finally just blew themselves up in a ton of the

369
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Speaker 2: checkists at the same time. So ended the Moscow branch.

370
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Speaker 2: But here's the thing. Eleven other branches remained, and their

371
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 2: history is literally unwritten. Besides a single article in Ukrainian

372
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 2: that isn't translated to English yet that only covers the

373
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,919
Speaker 2: Ukrainian Clendestine resistance set up by this group. This is

374
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 2: the biggest question mark answer I've ever run across while

375
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 2: researching this show, like the biggest deal thing that is

376
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 2: just not known at least two English language sources that

377
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 2: anyone I know can track. But you know what we

378
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 2: are pretty good at in English. It's advertising, that's right.

379
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,399
Speaker 1: That's right. Only done in English, Yeah, the international language

380
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,360
Speaker 1: of selling shit to people.

381
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: That's right, or it will be in another language. It's

382
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: fine too. Here's some stuff.

383
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Speaker 1: And we're back.

384
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Speaker 2: As for Maria Niki Forev, I say the well, I say,

385
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 2: I say the best for last, but it's actually the

386
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 2: least dramatic of any of those three groups of twenty.

387
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 2: She set off to go blow up the White General

388
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 2: and Crimea. It didn't go well for her because the

389
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: White secret services recognized her and her husband in the

390
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 2: streets of Sevastopool. On August eleventh, nineteen nineteen, they were

391
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Speaker 2: arrested and tried. She was tried for all her crimes

392
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,639
Speaker 2: like burning down prisons and killing nationalists. Her husband was

393
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 2: charged for knowing her and not ratting her out. He

394
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 2: was on trial for being married to her again.

395
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Speaker 1: You know, hard to argue he wasn't.

396
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

397
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 2: The single journalist present at the trial says that she

398
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 2: insulted the court and yelled at them, and the only

399
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 2: like the only time she cracked. She cried when she

400
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 2: said goodbye to her husband and they were both shot,

401
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 2: And it's the greatest love story ever told.

402
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

403
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 2: When she died, her hometown was under white control and

404
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 2: the newspaper there wrote about her. One more pillar of

405
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 2: anarchism has been broken, one more idol of blackness has

406
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 2: crashed down from its pedestal. Legends formed around this Czarina

407
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 2: of anarchism. Several times she was wounded, several times her

408
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 2: head was cut off, but like the legendary hydra, she

409
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 2: always grew a new one. She survived and appeared again,

410
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: ready to spill more blood. And if now in our region,

411
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 2: the offspring of the makan nov China, the remnants of

412
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 2: this poisonous evil are still trying to prevent the rebirth

413
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 2: of normal society and are still striving to re establish

414
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 2: the bloody rule of Makno. This latest blow means we

415
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 2: are witnessing the funeral procession at the grave of the

416
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 2: Makhnovchina after they were busy having a funeral procession for

417
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: themselves and being utterly destroyed. The insurrectionary Army of the

418
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 2: Maknuvchina retook Alexandrov's two weeks after that article was written,

419
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 2: and then they went around and gave everyone equal economic

420
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 2: and political opportunity. And actually that the peak of Makinovchina

421
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: came after that, I believe, okay, so, Marianniki Forov died

422
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 2: and for one hundred years or so her legacy was lost.

423
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 2: There's an incredible amount of lost history from this time period,

424
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,159
Speaker 2: and I've never run across so recent an event with

425
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: so many unknowns left to historians. That she was long

426
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 2: for so long is fascinating, because she was absolutely a

427
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 2: legend in her time. She was the many headed hydra

428
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 2: of anarchy. And after she died, partisan women all over

429
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: Russian Ukraine took her name as their own. They wouldn't

430
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 2: be Maria Niki Farova, they'd be Marusia something. It became

431
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 2: a common first name for revolutionists of various kinds, Marusia Chernea,

432
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 2: which means black. Maria commanded a different cavalry regiment in

433
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: the insurgent Army of Ukraine. I don't know anything more

434
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 2: about her. I don't know who cares about her. She

435
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 2: was killed in battle by the Reds or the peasant

436
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: rebel Mariusiya Kosova, which I think was in the Green Army,

437
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: those peasants who were like, fuck the Reds, fuck the

438
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: white stuff, stealing all our shit, you motherfuckers, kind of

439
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 2: the brotherhood without banners for like the Game of Thrones. Yeah,

440
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 2: honestly might have the highest moral ground of any army

441
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 2: in the Civil Wars, the Green Army as much as

442
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: like the Black Armies, like my team, the like, we

443
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 2: just don't want you to come here and steal a

444
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 2: lot of shit, you motherfuckers. People, pretty good leg to

445
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: stand on.

446
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

447
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 2: There was also a Ukrainian nationalist school teacher, Mariusia Sokolovaska,

448
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: who inherited command of a cavalry unit from her dead

449
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: brother who took the name, and I can only imagine

450
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: there were countless more women leading armies and fighting in them,

451
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 2: like that dead woman in leather who wasn't Maria Niki Farovaya,

452
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 2: because I doubt all of them or even most of them,

453
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: would have taken her name after Niki Farova's death. These

454
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: clandestine networks continued, though they're also lost to history. The

455
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: Makinovchina continues to Makno's wife. I think his second wife,

456
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 2: Helena Kuzmenko, the one we've talked about a couple times.

457
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,239
Speaker 2: She was a school teacher in Juliapulia. She taught the

458
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: history of Ukraine and she taught the Ukrainian language. This

459
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 2: is before the war. She helped form that spy network.

460
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,239
Speaker 2: She was a machine gunner. She shot the anarchist who

461
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: committed rape. She reformed education within anarchist controlled spaces, inspired

462
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: by veteran of the Pod, the Spanish anarchist educational for

463
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 2: reformer Francisco Ferrar, and the schools in the area were

464
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 2: run by teacher parent councils. Kids were given free food

465
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: at school, and it was, by all accounts like wildly

466
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 2: popular and successful, although it's possible that the reason those

467
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: can sow popular is because the kids got food at school,

468
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: like wild idea, much like how the Black Panthers terrified

469
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: the US government by offering free breakfast.

470
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: That's the scariest thing you can do.

471
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so Helena she kind of did it all.

472
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 2: She gets painted as a nationalist by history, especially by

473
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: Bolshevik history. Because she unashamedly promoted Ukrainianization and taught Ukrainian

474
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: and was into saving Ukrainian as a distinct culture from Russia.

475
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 2: She tried to build bridges between the nationalists and the

476
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 2: Makin of China, but then some nationalists tried to stage

477
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: a coup in the movement and makanuv China reaffirmed its

478
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 2: position as internationalists. And this doesn't stop Ukrainianization. It just

479
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: it's about the bigotry around it. According to the Soviets,

480
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,239
Speaker 2: the Makin of China became more and more nationalists as

481
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 2: the anarchist ideologues left the movement. But this is a lie,

482
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: at least according to Makno. Makno says that this is

483
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: the Bolsheviks confusing autonomy with nationalism. And I feel like

484
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: that's like such a That's a point that really stuck

485
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 2: with me about being like, look, you can you don't

486
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: have to be like a nationalist in the negative connotation

487
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: version of that word, to be like, hey, maybe us

488
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: the oppressed ethnic group Ukrainians could speak our own language,

489
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: that'd be okay. When the Red Army invaded Maknovist Ukraine

490
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty, they brought with it the Red Terror.

491
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 2: Everyone was sick with Typhus at this point, and a

492
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: ton of the anarchists were shot in their bed lev

493
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: that Jewish anarchist spy guy we were talking about before

494
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: he gets out and the countris Vednik goes underground and

495
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 2: they outlast the falling of the Insurgent Army. And it's

496
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: actually through their work that the Insurgent Army is able

497
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 2: to pick back up, because what they did while their

498
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: underground spies is they tracked Red Army movements and then

499
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 2: robbed the Red Army of two million rubles and ten

500
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 2: machine guns, which is apparently enough to start an army.

501
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: I don't know what a rubul looks like. I always

502
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 2: imagine it looks like the money in Legend of Zelda.

503
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's a gem of some sort.

504
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it's probably because it sounds like ruby.

505
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: But whatever.

506
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, the Cheka's running around assassinating peasants suspected of anarchism.

507
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 2: Thousands of Maknivists are being executed without trial. So this

508
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 2: is where I know that the Macnivists start doing purges,

509
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,959
Speaker 2: and I can't say I'd be above doing them at

510
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: this myself. At this point, the Maknivists now start killing

511
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: all the Bolsheviks they can find, purging all the state

512
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: officials who are Bolsheviks. A thousand Bolshevik officials are killed

513
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 2: by these reprisals, after about two thousand anarchists are killed

514
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: for being anarchists, and there are other histories about the

515
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: remainder of the Market of China. But by August nineteen

516
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: twenty one, the Reds had defeated the anarchist project and

517
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: Makno Kuzmenko, his wife, and others fled the rest of

518
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: their lives honestly not really happy periods. The anarchists were

519
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 2: held in an a tournament camp in Poland where they

520
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: tried to organize an anarchist revolution because they're them, and

521
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,719
Speaker 2: everyone kept trying to extradite them all while they were

522
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: in prison for being suspected of trying to organize a

523
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: Bolshevik uprising in Poland, which is really funny because they

524
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 2: were trying to organize an uprising, it just wasn't Bolshevik,

525
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: and the Polish are like, we think you're trying to

526
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: do a Bolshevism. While she's in prison, she gives birth

527
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: to her and Makno's daughter, Elena. They were found not guilty,

528
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: to everyone's surprise, and they moved to Paris. By nineteen

529
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 2: twenty seven, they were divorced, according to one source, but

530
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: they stayed close. She was with him at his death.

531
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: Nestor Makno died poor in Paris of tuberculosis at the

532
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: age of forty five. He'd spent his remaining years defending

533
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: himself against Bolshevik lies that he'd been anti Semitic, Like

534
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: that was like a major thing that he had to

535
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: do with his time was go around and like over

536
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 2: and over again and be like, hey, here's all of

537
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,239
Speaker 2: the evidence and all of these Jewish anarchists who were

538
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: with me, who saw me kill people for programming, And

539
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: every time you give this talk, like everyone would stand

540
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: up and be like, no, we were there. He didn't

541
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: do that. And now through all throughout history, that's still

542
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: what people have to do. What living he made he

543
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: made as a shoemaker and as an interior decorator. While

544
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: he was in Paris. He was also supported by the

545
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: money from his his wife was a cleaner, or his

546
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: ex wife was a cleaner, and she's giving him money.

547
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: He also gets this very modest stipend raised by Spanish

548
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: anarchists with the CNT. Whatever money he got, he spent

549
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: on his daughter Helenna. Once he knew he was going

550
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: to die soon anyway, he returned to drinking. Because there's

551
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,239
Speaker 2: a lot of arguments about like whether or not he

552
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: was a drunk.

553
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: You know, Warren Zevon made a similar choice.

554
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, wait, who's up?

555
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: Zivon always a musician, I like a lot oh okay,

556
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: alcoholic for a long time. It sobered up, and then

557
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: when he got cancer was like, well I'm going back

558
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: to it.

559
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

560
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we returned to drinking because he was dead anyway,

561
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: and his last words was to his daughter and they

562
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: are be healthy and happy, my daughter. And I think

563
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: that that tells like, because people have these like the

564
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: way that people paint men like him is these like

565
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: one completely focused on the revolution, nothing else exists for them,

566
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: like you know, one sided fanatics, and he's kind of

567
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 2: a fanatic, but he's not one sided.

568
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know.

569
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: It just makes me happy that he, yeah, loved his daughter. Unfortunately,

570
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: his command to his daughter didn't work. His daughter e Lenna,

571
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: as well as his wife and or ex wife well

572
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: at this point widow, they were deported to Nazi Germany

573
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: and forced to do slave labor for the Nazis. Well shit,

574
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: When the Soviets liberated Germany, the two women were arrested

575
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: for being Nazi collaborators and they were sentenced to hard

576
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: labor for being counter revolutionaries. The fact that they were

577
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: related to Makno was a big part of that.

578
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll bet isn't that a fuck?

579
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: And then after Stalin died, mother and daughter reunited. Mother

580
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: worked in a cotton factory until she died in nineteen

581
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,719
Speaker 2: seventy eight. Elena lived until nineteen ninety three. Her entire life,

582
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: her family lineage was used to deny her jobs and

583
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: opportunities in Soviet Russia. She said that she chose to

584
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: never have children because she didn't want them to suffer

585
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: the same family legacy that she had. And that's like,

586
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: not that I think people should have kids that they

587
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: don't want to, but it's like fucking heartbreaking to think about, Like, like,

588
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 2: her father's a fucking hero, you know. Yeah, she swore

589
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: off politics, but she did slap a man who called

590
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 2: her father a Bandit fair enough, And if you want

591
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: to slap a man.

592
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: Slap the men who sponsor this show with your wallet.

593
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: Thus I don't know, yeah by these ads.

594
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're back.

595
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: The Maginivists in exile kept up the fight for years.

596
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: Lev the spy, who might get his own episodes if

597
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 2: I can find out enough about him, because I I

598
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: think once I saw that photo, everyone should go google him. Well,

599
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: I think once I saw that photo, it's just like

600
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: that's a type of guy I didn't know existed in

601
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: anarchy form, And I'm really interested.

602
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: It's fascinating because like, yeah, that type of guy you expect,

603
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: Like that's about a third of professional wrestlers. And it's

604
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: also guys who like kill people for the mob. And

605
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: I'm glad that we have our own version of that

606
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: kind of guy. Yeah. If you want to know who

607
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,479
Speaker 1: would have who should have played this dude in a

608
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: TV show? During that one episode of T ANDNG that

609
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: one of the guys who plays a holideck gangster looks

610
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: act like this.

611
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,479
Speaker 2: He does look like a holiday gangster.

612
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: Up, he looks like a holideck gangst.

613
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, God see if I had if I if

614
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 2: they gave me Star Trek to write, I would absolutely

615
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: it would. I wouldn't necessarily be like, here's the whole Now,

616
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: the Federation's anarchists. Whatever, No, the federation should do what

617
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: the Federation does. I love it. It's interesting. No, what

618
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: would be is you'd have a captain who is obsessed

619
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: with the Makanov China and spends all of their time

620
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: in the Holi deck, being in not even being the

621
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 2: leader of it, just being in the free convent Rosina

622
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: or whatever.

623
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we're in those leathers.

624
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: So probably Lev keeps the fire going his entire life.

625
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 2: He becomes a double agent and then a triple agent spy,

626
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: but he stays in anarchist the entire time. He's the

627
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 2: one who organized the retreat of the Macnavists into Romania

628
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty one. And the way that they break

629
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: out of Ukraine is that they dress up as Red

630
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: Army soldiers and then like ambush the border guards and

631
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: disarm them like fucking cartoon style. They don't show up

632
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: and gun them down. They like show up, pull guns

633
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: and like disarm them and probably tie them up with

634
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 2: towels or whatever.

635
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds right.

636
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 2: In Romania, he sets up a Maknivist foreign center where

637
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: they would all meet and try to figure out how

638
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 2: to get back into Ukraine and get Magnev China going again.

639
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: Soon enough, he's a spy for the Romanian government and

640
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 2: he does this just so that they send him back

641
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 2: into Ukraine. He's like, oh, he make me a spy,

642
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: put me back in Ukraine, get me back in that fight.

643
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: I'm totally I hate the Bolsheviks, which is true, Get

644
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 2: me back in the fight. So as soon as they

645
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 2: send him into Ukraine, he shows up at the Bolsheviks

646
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: and he's like, hey, I'm a Romanian spy, but I'm

647
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: actually on your side. Sign me up. I'm going to

648
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: be a Bolshevik spy. And so they're like, yeah, we'll

649
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: totally take you as a double agent. By that, he's

650
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: now a triple agent. And then he gets recruited by

651
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: the Soviets and he has to like prove his value.

652
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 2: So he does it by like assassinating a French spy

653
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: and they get him installed back in fucking Romania as

654
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: a spy for the Soviets. And at this point you're like, oh,

655
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: maybe it's just the spy for the Soviet It's a

656
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: lot of anarchists became Bolsheviks in order to not be

657
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: killed you know whatever. No, as soon as he's back

658
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: in Romania, he starts using all of his contacts to

659
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 2: smuggle all the Maknivists back into Ukraine so that they

660
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: can try and fucking have a revolution again. He will,

661
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: this man will not give up. Unfortunately, there's a thing

662
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 2: called the Great Purge in the nineteen thirties.

663
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: Ah well, yes, and all.

664
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: The Macinivs he smuggled back into the country are caught

665
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: up in the Great Purge, including lev himself. He was

666
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: executed on September twenty fifth, nineteen thirty eight. His daughter

667
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: died fighting in the Red Army against the Nazis. His

668
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 2: son outlived the Soviet union man. And that's the story. Well,

669
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 2: one story about Marusia, Nikki Farova, Makhnovchina and love.

670
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: Ah.

671
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: I just like this stuff is like sat in my brain,

672
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: heavier than most stuff I've researched for this show. Almost

673
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: everything I research for the show ends up changing something

674
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: a little fundamentally about how I see the world. Spending

675
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 2: so long, I mean whenever people have their whole careers

676
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: around this, but for me, months and months is a

677
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 2: very long time. Spending so long in the history of

678
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 2: the Russian Civil War and the Russian Revolution has like

679
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: really influenced how I think about power and possibility. And

680
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: I don't have like conclusions out of it, but I

681
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 2: just find it fascinating. And I find her in particular fascinating.

682
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 2: I used to the first time I read about her,

683
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm usually not the type of person

684
00:36:54,680 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: who likes the more violent anarchists and revolutionaries, Like I'm

685
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: much more of the like you know, I'm not a pacifist,

686
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: but I'm usually drawn to the people who are like

687
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: looking to to focus on the positive program. And uh,

688
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: you know, and I'm like, why am I so drawn

689
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: to this person? And I think part of the reason

690
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 2: I'm so drawn to her is her unrelenting spirit. Like

691
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: I think for her, it wasn't that she was driven

692
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 2: towards violence. I think this so she was driven towards

693
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: like like she kept showing up and being like, hey, Mack,

694
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 2: no going to You're gonna keep to your word, you know,

695
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: Like she just like was like this like conscience in

696
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: people's minds of just like like a an arc type

697
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: of yeah of this idea.

698
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: Well, I guess we should all seek to be that

699
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: have that kind of have the kind of influence to

700
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: where like you live on because you've permanently carved a

701
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: space for your like like to to be someone of

702
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: such strong principle that that echo of you stays alive

703
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: in other people forever. Is I don't know something to

704
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: aspire here to. I guess, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not

705
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: even like it's not even about her actions. Her actions only.

706
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: Make sense in the context and when she's doing them, yeaight,

707
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: But about this unrelenting spirit of like, oh no, like

708
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: she doesn't do what is easy. Ever, it's that whole

709
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: Like it's the Marines, right who are like, oh no,

710
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: man left behind or whatever, right, Like we rarely see

711
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 2: that actually carried out. And the fact that like again

712
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: and again, she was like, well they have prisoners, so

713
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 2: we're going to fight them because we have to rescue

714
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: our own. Like solidarity is like fundamental to her and

715
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 2: I like her. Yeah, that's that's my I'll probably stop

716
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 2: talking about the Russian Revolution now and go back to

717
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: other things in the very near future. Yeah, thanks everyone

718
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: for listening as I spend I guess that's ten parts

719
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 2: total so far.

720
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it was a lot of It's an important

721
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: thing you can't really study it too much. It's one

722
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: of those it's like a Moby Dick kind of thing,

723
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: where like it's such a big thing that most of

724
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: the answers to most of the problems that are somewhere

725
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: hidden inside that because there's such a complicated human endeavor adventure.

726
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a hyper object in a lot

727
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: of ways.

728
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's this thing I've been talking to a

729
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: lot of people about like why history matters. And there's

730
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: two things that is like really stuck with me about it,

731
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 2: because like right now, the movements that are happening right

732
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: now are much more important than the movements that are

733
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 2: like dead and gone right and we don't necessarily need

734
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: to copy either labels, their ideologies or their practices of

735
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: the stuff that's come before. But I realized history matters

736
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: because if you're like trying to catch a ball and

737
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: someone throws a ball and you know where the ball is,

738
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: but you don't know where the ball came from. You

739
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: can't create the trajectory in your head. You have to

740
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: see it in motion to see the trajectory, you know,

741
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 2: And so seeing the origin of different ideas gives you

742
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: a really good idea about like where those ideas have

743
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 2: gone from where they started, and that gives you an

744
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: idea of where they're going, not a certainty. And so

745
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: the trajectory thing has always been a reason that I've

746
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: really cared about history. But then the other thing is

747
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 2: that I keep thinking about like people are like, oh,

748
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: this stuff doesn't matter. All that matters is right now,

749
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: and I'm like, well, if someone wants to do a

750
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: science experiment, it's useful to be able to be like, hey,

751
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 2: so here's similar science experiments that people have run. Here's

752
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: the variables that were in use during those experiments. It's

753
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 2: useful to know. And of course I say this, my

754
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: job is to talk about history, but it's really influenced me.

755
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm glad it's certainly having an influence

756
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: on me. There's there's so much to unpack here, and

757
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: I kind of think there's no too much that you

758
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: can spend staring into this. Yeah, yeah, I have my

759
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,439
Speaker 1: own We've been we've delved back in you and I

760
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 1: the story of the German Left and their their weird

761
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: embrace of pedophilia, and I kind of keep pouring into

762
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: it for the same reason. It's like a moral hyper object,

763
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: you know, and there's there's almost almost no end to

764
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: what you can pull out of that because of the

765
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: big a thing it is.

766
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: And it's awkward because that one has also been sitting

767
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: really heavily in my mind and not just a heavy subject,

768
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: but because like what it means about power and what

769
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: it means about care and like taking care of each

770
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 2: other and like, and that one's like funny because it's

771
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,439
Speaker 2: like why both of these are things that are hard

772
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 2: to bring up at dinner conversations, you know, like I

773
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 2: can't be like, hey, let's talk about the German lefts

774
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: embrace of pedophilia after World War Two, like not a

775
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: not a good dinner conversation, but also even among like

776
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: some of my friends. I you know, I showed up

777
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,439
Speaker 2: at one of my friend's houses recently and it's someone

778
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: I love talking to history about history with two whatever,

779
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 2: and and I was like, hey, can I ask you

780
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 2: this question about in nineteen eighteen when the anarchists disarmed

781
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 2: the uh, you know, disarmed the provisional government or whatever,

782
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 2: and we realized we were like we got way for everyone.

783
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 3: Else to go to bed.

784
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 2: No one else wants to sit at this dinner conversation

785
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: as we talk about this. So it's hard sometimes to

786
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 2: get into the nitty gritty of it, but I really

787
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 2: like this phrasing, the hyper object thing that, Yeah, there's

788
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: certain certain things that use the more you pour into it,

789
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: the more you glean from it, and it that and

790
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,240
Speaker 2: the things that you pull out of it aren't necessarily

791
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: always what you expect to pull out of it.

792
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: No, No, I think a lot about that, that mister

793
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: quote about death where he's like, it's a thing people

794
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: don't like to talk about, but it's also fundamentally human.

795
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: And anything that's fundamentally human is mentionable, and anything that's

796
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: mentionable is manageable.

797
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 2: I like that. Yeah, and even like this this Russian

798
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 2: Civil War thing, It's like, at the end of the day,

799
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: the main story of the Russian Civil War is millions

800
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 2: of people died for a bunch of different people who

801
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: were fanatics ideologies, and it was mostly bad. And then

802
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 2: finding the things like within that that are interesting. Oh

803
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,959
Speaker 2: it's messy, but yeah, Well, anyway, have you got anything

804
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 2: a plug?

805
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: Uh, We've got a new podcast, sixteenth Minute of Fame,

806
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: about what happens after people become the Internet's main character.

807
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: I have a novel called After the Revolution, and we

808
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: also have god so many other cool Zone podcasts. Catch

809
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: them all.

810
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I have a book coming out in September

811
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 2: called The Sapling Cage. It comes up from from this press.

812
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 2: It's being kickstarted in June twenty twenty four.

813
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: A hyper objective quality.

814
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 2: Oh thanks, And this summer I'm going to write the

815
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 2: sequel to it before the first book comes out, because

816
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 2: they lot a trilogy and I have to present them

817
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: with two more books. But they're going to be good.

818
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

819
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 2: So I will see you all next week when we

820
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: talk about almost certainly not the Russian Revolution. That's my

821
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 2: almost promise.

822
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe there will be another Russian revolution by that

823
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 1: point and we can just sew an episode on that one. Yeah.

824
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: Then it'll be another.

825
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: Quick one, real quickie. You knock that out in about

826
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: a day and a half.

827
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. Hey, you know that February revolution was fast. So

828
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 2: if you're listening in Russia, short months, you got a chance. Yeah, well,

829
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: banner drop for you over here in America.

830
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 1: Sure, absolutely, we've.

831
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: Got this wa Actually, America'll probably send you guns.

832
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: We'll send everybody guns. It's what we do.

833
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, good guy, bad guy whatever, All right, bye everyone.

834
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

835
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

836
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 1: visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

837
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

838
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: your podcasts.