WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 116 0:00:02.160 --> 0:00:02.880 Zone Media. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.480 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.880 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.880 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:22.639 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:28.200 you can make your own decisions. Welcome back to It 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:32.280 could Happen here, a podcast about it happening here. And 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:37.680 in the original cadence of this website or website, in 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.159 the original cadence of the show, that was a reference 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:42.559 to a civil war, right, a new civil war. It 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.440 could happen here. That's what season one was made a 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.680 big splash. Now, we kind of covered the dystopia beat 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.880 in general, but today we're getting back to our mother 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:57.440 fucking roots because the state of Texas has recently declared 0:00:57.560 --> 0:00:59.880 a big old fuck you to the federal government are 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.920 having its National guardsmen deploy razor wire at the border 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:09.200 and stop border patrol people from, for example, performing rescues 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.000 of people who are trapped in the water drowning. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:13.120 It's a whole thing. 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.080 At least three migrants have already died as a result 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.959 of this fuckery by Texas Governor Greg Abbott, and now like, 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.520 I don't know, twenty states something near to that. There 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:25.640 may be more by the time you hear this, but 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.920 something like twenty states have declared that they're in support 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.800 of Governor Abbott's refusal to let the FEDS in and 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.960 insistence that he's dealing with an invasion and must take 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:40.000 on the border texas'self, and some of those states are 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.040 now sending or at least claim they're going to send 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:46.680 national guardsmen. So when this all started happening, we all 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:48.920 got a lot of messages. I got about a billion 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:49.880 from people being. 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:51.360 Like is this it? Is this the civil war? 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.160 And obviously a big chunk of that comes from right 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.200 wing memes because they are all talking about like, yeah, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.120 let's do it, let's have us a civil war. We're 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:01.800 all going to start fighting over some guy posted his 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.840 handgun collection like we're ready a. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:05.840 Bunch of revilvers. 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.880 Yeah, stupid shit, it's stupid shit, But you know, it's 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.840 not unreasonable to be like, this seems like a massive 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.160 constitutional crisis that's potentially in line with some of the 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:20.960 crises that precipitated the original Civil War. You've got a 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:24.520 governor completely defying not now, not just you know, the 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.359 president and the federal government, but the Supreme Court who 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:31.000 ruled that you can't just have your fucking Texas goons 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.160 stop a federal law enforcement agency from doing its. 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:34.960 Job on the border. 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.400 So you know, how serious is this and is this 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:40.799 the kind of thing that's going to lead to a 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.560 twenty four's new Civil War movie? And my quick take 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.160 on this is no, probably not. I think what this 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.320 is is, in fact, a governor stretching out his authority 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.720 and testing how much he can get away with against 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.079 the overall federal government because he and a lot of 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.680 other conservative governors want to do things that are directly 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.399 in contravention of the Civil Rights Act, of the Bill 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:12.120 of Rights, of numerous federal protections for their citizens. And 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:13.960 this is kind of a way of being like, well, 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:15.920 if they won't fuck with us over this, then we 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:20.720 can probably start imprisoning journalists and you know, killing people 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.400 that or at least imprisoning people that otherwise we would 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:26.240 not be able to write like this is a right 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.120 wing power grab and it's an attempt to see is 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.600 the central government weak enough that we can get away 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:33.639 with this stuff. I don't think they're all going to 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.120 start shooting at each other. I don't think Greg abbott 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:38.760 is wants to get in a shooting war with the 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:43.560 federal government over mostly the dimensions of the crisis are 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.640 gend up and fake in terms of like what he 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:47.800 is claiming it is. There is, in fact the humanitarian 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.200 crisis at our border, but that's not what his issue is. 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.480 So that's my quick take. We're going to get into 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:54.520 more of all of that. But James, you are our 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:58.960 resident border correspondent porrespondent, and you have some very strong 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.400 feelings on how all of this has been interpreted in 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:03.480 the media, So I wanted to pull to you first 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:05.600 and then we'll get to Mia and we'll just kind 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:06.760 of round table after that. 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.800 I do, and in a rare instance for me, I 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:11.880 have strong feelings about the way this has been covered, 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.320 and strong feelings about the coverage of the border, which 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:15.960 I know is the thing I talk about all the time. 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.760 But I am beyond frustrated with the way this has 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:24.000 been covered. It's hugely irresponsible and it's completely context free, 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.320 Like there are people as there always are with the border, 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:28.920 and there always are with the right who just tourists 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.480 outside things that they understand and try and generate clicks 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.640 by geeing up the fear of a civil war. And yes, 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:41.880 I've seen dozens of people sharing headlines about national Guard deployments. 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.080 So happened years ago. The National Guard have been deployed 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.880 to our border for years. I see national Guard troops 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.800 every day. I had a National Guard guy shooting me 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:52.400 and shoot at me, shout at me. 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.120 A friend of ours took one of their rifles. 0:04:56.279 --> 0:05:01.159 Yes, yes, the National Guard have been extremely based in 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:07.279 arming the Butterfly Center. Yeah, they they're there. There's a 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.760 federal deployment. Texas also has a state deployment. These are 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:10.640 different things. 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.520 And other states have also sent national guardsmen to the 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.080 border before. By the correct this is not the first 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:16.919 time this has happened. 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.120 Yeah, yeah, So there's a federal deployment and then there 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.960 are state deployments. Both of those are distinct things. Something 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.440 to know about the state deployment that is missing in 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.120 the context free reporting that you're seeing is that these 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.919 guys aren't getting any of their federal deployment benefits, so 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.719 they won't be getting the tricare, they won't be getting 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.880 the time towards their retirement, they won't be getting their 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:40.839 GI bill, etc. So, like the Texas guys who are 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.400 deployed on state orders are really the National Guard are 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:50.440 getting barked by Greg Abbott Like it's laughable that that, Like, 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:52.880 you know, he's pretending that he cares about Texas while 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:54.880 actively screwing over and Robert and I have spoken to 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.920 some of those Texas National Guard folks last time we 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.200 were in Texas. Did not seem to be super motivated 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.960 to be They're the only military unit I've seen tried 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.039 to form a union because they're not in the federal 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:07.960 They're not in the federal orders, so they can attempt 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:08.599 to form a union. 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.680 Get Billy bragged down to the border. We got to 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:13.080 do this. 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.640 Yeah, let's get Billy back. I'll get him going over 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.800 the Rio Grande and when Billy bragg and they'll fix it. 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.040 It has been the most dangerous deployment that they've had, 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:28.320 including deployment to a rug They they have, unfortunately a 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.880 habit of drinking and driving, which has not proven healthy 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.560 for them. They also there's a quirk of Texas law 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.800 that means that they can't stop National Guard soldiers from 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.600 bringing their own firearms, yeah, which is great. Yeah yeah, 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.080 and then us they can't stop them accidentally killing each 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:47.920 other with their own firearms. Also, yeah, it's good stuff. 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.440 A TG soldier did die trying to save a migrant 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.160 from the river. Yes, he drowned. So like it has 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:59.880 not like it is very boring but also quite dangerous deployment. 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:02.680 You know, they have really high They wrote a manifesto 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.719 a couple of years ago about how bullshit that deployment was, 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.120 which is really great to death. Yeah, So much of 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:14.200 this has been reported without any context, right, Like, I 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.000 think genuinely a lot of the people reporting on this 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.240 are not aware there have been national their National Guard 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.000 here in California. Like I say, I see them all 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.520 the time. They're not supposed to interdict migrants, but I 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.040 see them doing surveillance, and I see them guarding open 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.840 air prisons in Hiccumber almost every day, And I think 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:31.920 that seems to have been missed by the majority of 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:33.400 people covering this. 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.400 Now we should talk more about the open air prison part, 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.680 because I think there's a lot of people who seem 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.640 to be getting the impression that the Biden administration is 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:47.720 like actually substantively trying to do something to help immigrants, 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.200 and like they're like this fight is like between like 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.920 pro and anti immigration. It's like, no, there is a 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.040 fight between whether you think these people should be killed 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.640 incredibly quickly by accommodation of razor wire and rivers, or 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.880 whether you think they should starve the day. 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.720 Yeah, or die of dehydration walking through the desert, or 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.080 die of hypothermia walking through the mountains. Like I I 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:08.840 think I've said some of the podcasts before, but I 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.120 was helping a three year old girl who was hypothermic 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.040 last week, and like, that is what Joe Biden is doing. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.360 That is a Joe Biden policy being enacted by Joe 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.120 Biden as Joe Biden wants it to be enacted, or 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:22.840 at very least I'm sure his personal complicity or even 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.120 understanding is relatively low. Given his understanding, it seems of 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:29.880 a lot of things. But the Biden administration's policy is 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.319 to deter people by making crossing more difficult and more dangerous, 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.520 which de facto makes it more deadly. Abbott is doing 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.400 with his razor wire and his floating fence is a 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.960 version of the same thing, like they are not distinctly different. 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:46.640 When everyone was up in arms about three people drowning, 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.680 that's a tragedy. At eight hundred and fifty people died 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.120 crossing the border in twenty twenty two, that was a 0:08:53.320 --> 0:09:00.320 normal day. Like the distinction is maybe in degree, but 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.800 really it's an aesthetic between between Abbott and Biden and 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:05.920 this and it's just two dudes chest stump each other 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.720 trying to not look weak. There is not an option 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.160 in the US system which allows you to vote for 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.600 the party that doesn't want migrants to die, like like that, 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.160 both of the parties are completely in lockstep on that. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.360 And let's let's let's be very clear about something. Part 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.280 of why that is is because an overwhelming number of 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:29.800 Americans are indifferent or actively hostile to the survival of migrants. Yes, 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.720 like this is an It is incredibly unpopular in this 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.160 country to think these people are human beings who deserve 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.960 decent treatment in decent lives. This is a fight that 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:44.079 the left has lost comprehensively, mostly in large part because 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:45.959 the left has completely given up on it, which is 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.520 why you've got fucking a lot of these nasbol assholes 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.439 saying shit like you know, this is we have like 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.959 like saying basically protectionist, nativist kind of shit these yes, right, 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:57.360 because I. 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:01.480 Think that like leftist media as also, and to include 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.720 I guess liberal media also has completely oh yeah, like 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.280 being complicit in this, right, Like the amount of stories 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.599 that you will read about migrants that don't talk to 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:13.320 migrants in the next few weeks will be a lot 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:15.840 if you'd care to read them, right, And that's because 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:17.880 people don't want to come here. They're either afraid of 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:19.560 coming here or they don't want to take the time, 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.120 they don't have the language skills. There are people who 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.200 have the language skills who who don't get these jobs, 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:26.000 and are people who don't have the language skills and 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.760 who don't have the understanding of how the border on 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.840 the ground works as opposed to immigration policy in DC works. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.520 And you're going to see a lot of people who 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:36.400 don't live at the border, who don't come to the border, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.719 writing about the border and yeah, that's how we got here, 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:44.360 and that's how we're getting to this largely like a 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:48.760 giant panic about a nothing burger. But yeah, it's the 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.080 reporting has been in continued to be responsible, and that 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:52.400 is in some degree complicit. 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.240 Yeah, And I think this is also the explanation for 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:56.880 why there's a lot of people going like, why is 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.240 Biden not like setting the troops? Why is Biden not 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.320 cracking jobs? Does fucking give a shit? It's the same policy. 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.160 He doesn't care, right Like, there's not actually substantive disagreement 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.960 except over like whether it should be like some like 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.360 a really stupid political stunt, over whether it should be 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.679 like federal troops like on or federal agents like on 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:18.800 the border, or whether it should be the razor wire 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.320 like he doesn't care, you know. 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:23.320 And to be fair, I will say I don't think 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:25.720 this is the start. This right here, I don't think 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:27.720 is the start of a civil war. We may if 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:29.800 we have one. We may someday see this on like 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.080 the list of factors contributing to in the years leading 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.400 up to it. But I will say, if we do 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.880 ever have a shooting civil war, it will be something 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:42.120 this dumb that I feel absolutely certain of it will. 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.080 It will be a thing where no one involved really 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.480 cares about the issue that starts it. It's just a 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.440 dick measuring contest that goes too far. I just don't 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.040 think this is the dick measuring contest. But to be fair, 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.079 it will be something this dumb. Don't worry, folks, don't worry. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.240 If we do start shooting each other, it will be 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:00.520 just as supid as this. 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.960 Yeah, I do think that, Like I think we're extremely 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:06.360 likely to start of shooting civil war over this or 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.200 in the next few years. Generally, I do think the 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.320 chance of shooting my context without a CIVI awards, shooting 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.120 specifically of migrants, especially in places where they're not safe, 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:19.560 like open air attention centers, is going up. And yes, 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.120 that scares the shit out of me, like as someone 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.679 who spends a lot of his life there. And I 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.520 do think that the I mean we saw in twenty eighteen, right, 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.320 and we've covered this extensively. The Tree of Life shooting 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.000 was in large part motivated by right wing rhetoric about 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.480 a caravan of migrants. I was in Tijuana in twenty eighteen. 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.040 I spent months of my life helping people down there. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:46.400 Like anyone who's scared of those people is paranoid at least, 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.840 right that they were mostly fine, wonderful, very friendly people. 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.520 I spent Christmas with them. But yeah, the twenty eighteen 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.800 Tree of Life shooting came from paranoia about the border. 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.520 We're seeing that same paranora from right wing media and 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.560 from liberal media now, and I think that it would 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.319 not be unreasonable to have that fear of individual acts 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.000 of violence and terrorism along the border. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:10.280 Yeah. 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.520 I think one of the things we're going to have 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.720 to do in the near future is get better at 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:23.240 understanding kind of the media dimensions of conflicts like this 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.560 and what is an irresponsible way to respond to them. 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.400 And I think treating this like it is a civil 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.720 war type deal is kind of feeding into the right's 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:40.040 image of itself and their desire to treat this like 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.320 their revolutionaries. Now, that said, what is the right thing 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:48.200 to do, because, like the the what the Biden administrations 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.280 seems to be doing right now is largely kind of 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.319 ignoring it. I think at some point they will probably 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.040 try to nationalize the guard and we'll see what happens. 0:13:58.040 --> 0:13:58.240 Then. 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:01.640 One thing that's kind of worth noting is that this 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:05.160 has primarily gone viral on right wing media. I'm seeing 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:11.040 very little of this on mainstream centrist like liberal media sources. 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:13.920 And I'm seeing little on this because like most of 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.680 those sources don't really care about the border unless there's 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.280 some way to like drum up fear against migrants like that, 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.360 they'll do a caravan story. But this just simply doesn't sell. 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.400 I think when it comes to like what is a 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.880 responsible way to report on this, I think you have 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.680 to start by centering what's actually happening to the migrants, 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.400 what's being done to them, as opposed to focusing on 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.600 this dick measuring, because that's the actual harm here. The 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:46.160 harm here is not that Abbott has been mean to 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.240 the border patrol, and it's not that Texas and these 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.120 other states, these rebel states, are raising an army to 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:57.400 fight the federal government. It's that there's this argument between 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.560 the people in power in our country about like how 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.880 bad should things be for people who are already desperate. 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.920 And I think that's where you should center your focus. Also, 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.800 I've just noticed this on my other screen. This is 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.240 a bit off topic, but you know that movie Rebel 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:19.400 Moon by Zack Snyder, Oh god, An, there's an ad 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.920 for the canned water company Liquid Death that just is 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:27.160 showing a bunch of like imperial troops from that movie 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.440 beating a man and then drinking Liquid Death water as 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.440 they relax afterwards, and It's the most unhinged ad I've 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.080 ever seen. It's like running a side a Vox article. 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.760 I've never seen anything like this before. It's just like, 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.120 what the wait a second, what Zack Snyder? Come on, 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:51.240 you can't do zax No, that fucking guy. Jesus talking 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:53.360 of advertising, buy some liquid death. 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:04.360 We're back. 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:06.560 Yeah, So I want to talk about grift because we 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:08.440 talked about advertising a bit. I don't know if you 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:12.440 guys have seen the number of like right wing influences. Okay, 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.160 so I'm looking at friend of the podcast, Tim Poole's 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:15.800 Twitter here. 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.240 Oh, Tim, there's a guy who is excited to have 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.960 a civil war where he will be mrked immediately by 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:23.080 one of his bodyguards. 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.360 Yeah, there is a man who's seen combat and knows 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.920 what it is to hear rounds cracking off over your head. Okay, Timple, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.760 I'm just going to quote here at ha ha ha 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:38.760 ha ha etc. Fuck me, dude, and then Safe and 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.320 Ready Meals dot com. Pool is not the only one 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.120 on the buckets of food grift right. Alex Jones has 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.320 been on this too. Oh yeah, a million years, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.800 He's been longtime, longtime food story guy at Alex Jones. 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.520 A lot of these guys are like very clearly geeing 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.400 up fears of civil war on the right so that 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:03.360 they can sell people powder dry eggs like it's so transparent, 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.960 Like it's in the same tweet. Yeah, sobiak Trump calls 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.560 for all willing states to deploy National Guard to Texas 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.080 border and start the deportations. And then as a special 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:17.399 partner offer from my patriotsupply dot com god, which is 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:19.320 the way to fuel your bigotry? 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.440 I guess guys, two things. First off, if you buy 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.240 your storable food from some right wing media grifters deal site, 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:30.359 you will spend the apocalypse shitting yourself to death like 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.959 it's all horrible. If you are going to buy, if 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.000 you are going to throw a bunch of money on store. 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.880 If you are a sane and reasonable person who wants 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.359 to store food, learn how to make your own jerky. 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.479 Learn how to can food. You can do it very cheaply. 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.679 It is not expensive to can your own food. If 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.240 you know what you're doing. You can can stuff that 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:50.480 is in season and get it really cheap from the 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.520 grocery store. And you can pickle and do other kinds 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.960 of can't pressure canning. It's really economical and it will 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.200 last a long time. If you are going to spend 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.800 a shipload of money on storable, freeze dried food, you're 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.480 going to be spending a bunch of money anyway. Just 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.439 go buy Mountain House. By Mountain House. It's the good stuff. 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.199 It's tasty as far as I know. No right winger 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:15.000 advertises on them, and it's it's actually pretty good food. Yeah, 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.320 that's what I keep in my car. Emergencies. You will 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.840 not ship ever ever again. Yeah, you may never poop again. 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:27.800 But the fucking biscuits and gravy breakfast selection there. Man, 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.960 when you're alone in the mountains, that ship is fucking fire. 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:32.200 Oh my god. 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.159 Yeah, that will. It is like a bung for the 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:36.359 digestive system. 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:36.800 Yeah. 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.480 I just want to plug Lentils do org, which checked 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:41.240 a websitels. 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.320 Yeah, Lentils ship forever. 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.480 Yeah, it's find balance between the yin and the yang 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.080 in your in your post a vocalypse life with Mountain 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:56.840 House and Lentils do Org. You today, you know what's 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:00.560 not running on Lentils guys. Unfortunately, this is not that pivot. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.920 I've just I've done the ol bait and switch it's 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.760 this fucking convoy that's going to the border. 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.639 I'll talk about this little Yeah, let's do that that. 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.880 Like, this is where I'm really done with irresponsible reporting, 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.520 like being like oh no, January sixth, Part two. Here's 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:18.679 a link if you want to take part. Look, like, 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.480 what the fuck is wrong with you is stop it? 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.800 But I look, right wing groups have tried to run 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:31.080 convoys probably a dozen times since twenty twenty. Right, I 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.120 think we can all think of a different convoy that's 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:34.879 got stuck under a bridge. 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.040 When drove by my house and then basically didn't get 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:38.920 any further than that. 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:42.880 Yep, yep, they get lost. They disagree about directions. 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.000 A lot of what a lot of people are going 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.600 to realize is that the Texas border is twelve hours 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:52.639 from anywhere in Texas when you are in Dallas. I 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.240 believe this is accurate. When you are in Dallas, it 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.119 is faster to drive to Chicago than it is to 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.719 direct to the border. It is so fucking far away 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.480 from anything you could cross Europe in the time it 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.080 will take you to get down there. 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:09.520 Yeah. 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.600 I love the idea of a convoy of like you know, 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:16.520 like completely c pilled lunatic you're sending on the town 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:17.439 of MafA. 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:22.800 Yeah, fucking passing Marathon and going where the christ. 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:22.920 Are we. 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:29.080 Like, yeah, like, it is a really really beautiful bike 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.080 ride from MafA to the border. There's from dirt roads 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:31.560 you can take. 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.640 Oh and Marfa by the way, folks, if you're looking 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:35.680 to go down to the border, very fun town. You'll 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:36.959 have a good time in Marfa. 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.800 Yeah, do love a bit of Marfa. Really, I'm not 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:42.640 going to tell my Martha story. I'll tell you guys 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:46.919 when we're done. But yeah, yeah, it is not like salacious. 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.960 It's just yeah, Marfa is near the border. Lots of 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.440 things are not. It is a very long way from 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.520 I guess like maybe people could fly to a passer 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.760 that's near the border. But yeah, it's this idea to 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:02.439 those three convoys, right. One I think is supposed to 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:06.000 go from Virginia Beach to Texas. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:08.080 Shares the way. 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:13.400 Good luck, guys, enjoy spending seven thousand dollars in Gussie Yes, 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.360 exactly where if they not looked at the cost of fuel, 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:19.600 you fucking idiots have fun homies. 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:24.360 Yeah. Another one is going from I think last Cruisays 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:26.280 to Yuma and the one is going from here at 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.440 Santa Cedro to Yuma. Yes, the drive from Santa Sedro 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:34.000 to Humor is boring af but good luck, I guess, 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.840 like good luck spending that Californa. Hopefully they get pull 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:38.520 off at some of the gas stations like east of 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.560 San Diego where it's still like six or seven dollars 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:43.720 a gallon, because you're fucked if you need fuel there 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:47.560 and you can't buy it from anyone else. But yeah, 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:49.320 the idea that people are going to spend all their 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:54.040 money like driving across the country's also just very like 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:56.520 there's the meme right of the like the old white 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.080 guy wearing Oakley wrap around or fake Oakley wrap around 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:02.200 sunglasses doing selfie video in his car to rent about 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.480 like anything and everything. But like, I think it's very 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:07.840 illustrative of how many of these people don't feel safe 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:13.080 outside their vehicles and like need the activism to involve 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:14.760 their theft. 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:18.679 Fifty Yeah, well, in part because most of them are, 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:23.639 like most Americans, not in great shape, not physically imposing. 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:26.000 So if you're sitting in an F two fifty, you 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:29.080 feel big and powerful. Like James, you and I both 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.080 have trucks. One of the things about trucks that is 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:34.280 nice is that being in a truck, you're elevated above 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:37.560 the rest of the road, right, Oh yeah, and that 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:39.600 that gets to a lot of people's heads, especially if 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:42.359 they have absolutely nothing else going on in their lives, 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.240 which nobody participating in this fucking caravan does. So they 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.480 this is like it's it's it's there. It's emotional support. Right, 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:53.840 They're sitting in their truck, they've got their gun, They're 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.639 not breathing hard because they have to like walk around 0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:00.320 the world, and they would desperately prefer that they can. 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.560 That's where how their activism, that's how their participation in 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:13.159 the Second Civil War will occur. Yeah, bunch of fucking wankers. Yeah, 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:16.320 So I do want to get into kind of like 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:20.720 what we do feel is the actual threats of this. Again, 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.560 I think the danger here is you've got a lot 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.480 of kind of fights going down about like how far 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:31.080 can governments take their anti trans legislation, How mean can 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:34.679 they be to undocumented immigrants, Like how much violence can 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:39.520 they deploy in deporting people? What can they do to journalists? 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:41.880 What can they do to people speaking out or engaging 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:46.280 in protest without violating the Bill of Rights. You know, 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:49.320 what can they do to marginalized communities about virrelating the 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:50.200 Civil Rights Act? 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:52.560 I think this is an. 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:58.040 Attempt to set a precedent for ignoring federal control so 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.399 that they can be crueler to large groups of people 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:03.280 within their purview. And I think a lot of this 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:06.719 is a reaction to this is kind of there, what 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:07.879 if we lose this election? 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:08.480 Right? 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:10.320 I think there is a fear. And I don't necessarily 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:12.280 think this fear is actually like born out. I don't 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:16.159 think the Rights National hopes in terms of its ability 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:19.000 to get elected again after Trump are as poor as 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:20.760 people want them to be, as I might want them 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:24.280 to be. But I think there is real fear among 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:26.199 the right that if Trump doesn't win this, they're not 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:28.800 going to win the presidency again, right, And I think 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:30.719 part of what they are doing is setting up all, right, 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:34.720 then we will just take over and take increasing autonomy 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:38.360 in our red states, and we will effectively govern them 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:41.760 very differently and govern them in contravention of how the 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:44.520 rest of the country and how the federal government of 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:46.879 the Supreme Court says that they can be governed, because 0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:50.760 we can't be cruel enough without that and I think 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:53.960 that is what they are stepping up to be able 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:56.720 to do. If you're asking you know, what do I 0:24:56.720 --> 0:24:59.240 think will be sort of like line crossings that could 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:03.679 lead to to mass social violence in this country. One thing, 0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:06.159 I don't think they're going to take that leap while 0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:09.560 a Democrat is in control of the federal government in 0:25:09.600 --> 0:25:12.280 the Defense Department. I think they will push for a 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:16.080 violent crackdown on everything left of the far right if 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:19.720 they win power again, because they talk about that repeatedly, 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:22.439 because they've promised to do that, and I think that 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:25.160 if they lose, there's an off chance. I don't think 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:28.959 this is likely, but it's not impossible that protests and 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:32.399 violence as acts of protest against Biden winning a second 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:37.800 term could snowball into something that resembles an insurgency. Not impossible. 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:41.280 I don't think that's the likeliest outcome. But I don't 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:45.240 see them starting to shoot at federal troops now while 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:47.399 Biden is in the White House. For one thing, I 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:49.320 feel like that's the thing that would really clinch it 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:54.640 for Biden. If Texas National Guard trying to secede, well, 0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:58.360 you've made his reelection campaign easier, right, because now none 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:01.360 of the red states. None of the states that secede. 0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:04.280 You can't also have an election where those states get 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:06.560 to vote, right, Like, that's that's just not the way 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:09.239 it works. Yeah, so I don't feel like that's the 0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:12.480 likeliest thing I think this is. Yeah, I think I've 0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:14.480 made it clear what I think, and I think it's 0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:17.480 really clear that it's time for our second dad break. 0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:18.320 That's right. 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:20.760 Hopefully it's an ad for the new transpried oreos. Have 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:21.640 you guys seen those? 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:24.400 Yeah? No, have you not seen those? 0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:24.560 What? 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:24.960 Wait? 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:30.280 Trans fried oreo? Well, yeah, maybe it's just me. I 0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:31.920 was just reading a story earlier and I just. 0:26:31.880 --> 0:26:36.280 Trans fat or No, they have like a blue transplant. 0:26:36.359 --> 0:26:41.440 Oh well, okay, they have. 0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:43.640 Years ago. 0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:46.040 Hold on, this is okay, okay, okay, let's say I 0:26:46.040 --> 0:26:46.920 don't really have. 0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:49.679 Woke woke biscuit. 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:54.560 That's good, I have. I have no opinion on this. 0:26:54.760 --> 0:26:57.520 I guess it's good Oreos aren't bigoted. 0:26:58.240 --> 0:27:01.199 Yeah, well, don't money to me instead. 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:14.960 Yeah, I don't think it really matters. Side there. Ah, 0:27:15.080 --> 0:27:15.840 we're back. 0:27:17.880 --> 0:27:18.080 You know. 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:21.280 One thing I think about like part of why this 0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:24.359 is going viral, and I think part of what's an 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:26.280 issue about this with the way it's being talked about 0:27:26.320 --> 0:27:27.760 on the left, but also you know, the way, the 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:31.960 way it's marketable to the right is that the thing 0:27:32.000 --> 0:27:36.040 about this confrontation is that it looks like a civil war, 0:27:37.000 --> 0:27:40.480 but it looks like it's it's it's exactly perfectly engineered 0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:44.960 to look like the lead Civil war one, And that 0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:47.960 is incredibly misleading. It's it's it's it's basically it's like 0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:50.159 a marketing thing, right, because like, yeah, and this is 0:27:50.200 --> 0:27:51.840 only thing we've talked about on this show for like 0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:54.800 literally since day one, is that like a civil war 0:27:54.840 --> 0:27:57.080 in the United States is not going to look like 0:27:57.480 --> 0:28:01.600 a bunch of states like form an alliance and then 0:28:01.640 --> 0:28:03.879 all they're fighting all of the other states. Like it's 0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:05.359 it's not going to look like that. It's going to 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:07.240 look closer to Syria than it is going to look 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:12.840 like like the first Civil War. But people haven't shaken 0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:17.000 like the sort of like brainworms of a civil war 0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:20.840 is like sixteen states fight sixteen states, even though every 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:24.840 single civil war that we've had, like in the intervening 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:27.400 like one hundred like two hundred years, has not been that. 0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:31.400 And here's here's how wrong. Here's how people are comprehensively 0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:34.240 wrong about this. Right on the left side, you have lmao, 0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:36.280 you guys are going to fight the federal government with 0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:39.800 your AR fifteen's. They got bombs and planes, and like, well, 0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:42.960 we've seen how well our bombs and planes work against insurgencies. 0:28:43.000 --> 0:28:45.160 We're not good at winning those. If there were any 0:28:45.360 --> 0:28:48.200 real insurgency, and there's certainly ingredients to it, it would 0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:51.120 actually be a problem for the US. However, that does 0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:54.600 not look like sixteen states declaring themselves succeeded and going 0:28:54.640 --> 0:28:56.640 to because that's a conventional war. And you know what 0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:59.720 happened if Greg Abbott started a conventional war against the US. 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.720 Greg Abbott doesn't have a fucking bunker, right like we could, 0:29:03.840 --> 0:29:05.200 we could, he could be he could. 0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:05.640 Be blown up. 0:29:05.720 --> 0:29:08.960 He is again nothing against being in a wheelchair, But 0:29:09.040 --> 0:29:11.080 this is not a man who is capable of like 0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:15.480 living underground and hiding from federal bombers. Like that's just 0:29:15.640 --> 0:29:17.680 not the kind of conflict that you need to be 0:29:17.760 --> 0:29:18.600 concerned about. 0:29:19.360 --> 0:29:21.680 Yeah, this this man does not have the big lawden 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:22.280 dog in him. 0:29:22.400 --> 0:29:25.280 He just does not know he's sure, he sure doesn't. 0:29:27.080 --> 0:29:29.800 He the idea of Greg Abba taking to a hate 0:29:29.880 --> 0:29:35.560 system in doing a Tora bora Texas. He's hand out 0:29:35.600 --> 0:29:41.640 and fucking yeah, fucking big bend or whatever. Yeah yeah, 0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:44.160 Torah boring big bend. Jesus Christ. 0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:47.600 Yeah, it will be outstanding. We would love to see it. 0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:51.840 Yeah. Yeah, grainy photos of Greg Abbott and like the 0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:56.080 mountains of Southern Texas shaking hands with Mexican revolutionaries as 0:29:56.120 --> 0:30:01.160 they smel rifles to him, rifles they also got from 0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:04.400 the United States. That is what we call the circle 0:30:04.440 --> 0:30:04.880 of life. 0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:08.200 Oh good god, we can we can dream, but it 0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:11.680 does seem unfortunately unlikely. Yeah, it would be very funny. 0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:12.600 Yeah. 0:30:12.800 --> 0:30:14.920 See Sealed Team go off to Greg Abbott. 0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:21.000 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Sealed Team fighting the Texas Rangers off only. 0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:22.160 If only. 0:30:23.800 --> 0:30:26.040 Just a bunch of dudes each with a revolver because 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:28.040 they thought it looked cool until the very first time 0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:29.320 someone was shooting back at them. 0:30:29.440 --> 0:30:29.640 Yeah. 0:30:29.680 --> 0:30:32.080 It's it's a real like who has who is on 0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:38.680 the most HGH competition? Whoever, whoever can stop the steroids 0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:42.320 from flooding in is going to win. That's the spice 0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:45.880 in this particular conflict. Yea, we would love to see 0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:49.480 Joe Rogan's the baron Harcone and of making sure everybody 0:30:49.560 --> 0:30:58.680 spec ops, guys have enough gear floating above a fucking table. Great, 0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:02.800 it would be wonderful in some senses. Yeah, I don't 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:05.920 think we're going to see a sheet word about It 0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:09.000 will be interesting to see how like Biden has screwed 0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:11.400 the pooch in terms of like his media management of this, 0:31:11.560 --> 0:31:14.320 I would say, And it will be interesting to see 0:31:15.280 --> 0:31:18.360 how hard he goes in response, Like if he goes 0:31:18.440 --> 0:31:21.640 back in response, I think the smart answer would be 0:31:21.960 --> 0:31:25.600 nationalize the Guard. If there's things that you can actually 0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:29.400 prosecute people over, prosecute them and continue to not deal 0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:32.960 with it in the media. Like his instinct isn't bad 0:31:33.040 --> 0:31:36.040 in terms of not wanting to feed in directly to 0:31:36.080 --> 0:31:38.760 the right wing outrage loop, but you still have to 0:31:39.400 --> 0:31:41.520 You still have to go after them for this, right, 0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:43.600 And it's the kind of thing it's probably like too 0:31:43.720 --> 0:31:46.560 much to hope for any real action being taken. But 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:49.600 I would say that's probably the smarter option, right not 0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:51.480 to say anything of like what the most moral thing 0:31:51.520 --> 0:31:53.520 to do is, but the smart option is don't feed 0:31:53.560 --> 0:31:56.520 into the fundraising loop, because we should probably get in 0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:59.760 on that this is all a fundraising thing, right. In addition, 0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:02.680 to them testing the waters. That's the biggest dimension of 0:32:02.720 --> 0:32:05.920 this is and that's why we talked earlier. All of 0:32:05.920 --> 0:32:08.920 these guys Timpoole and Jack Pisoviec, and I'm sure the 0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:11.160 Daily Wire guys are in it now, are like advertising 0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:15.080 their storable foods companies and shit. The point of all this, 0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:20.520 all right wing messaging, all far right messaging, starts as 0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:23.000 a grift. It all starts with a product to sell. That's, 0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:25.680 by the way, how guns became so enmeshed with the 0:32:25.680 --> 0:32:27.840 far right right. A lot of gun companies realize that 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:31.840 like Americans only need so many guns for like reasonable 0:32:31.880 --> 0:32:35.640 self defense and hunting and even even recreational purposes. There's 0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:37.840 only so many guns a man could shoot at a time. 0:32:38.200 --> 0:32:41.960 But you can really get people to stockpile shit like 0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:45.840 crazy if you convince them they're like preparing to be 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:50.600 gorilla fighters in a future civil war. And so and 0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:53.200 a lot of these like gun tuber influencers, that's kind 0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:55.240 of where they increasingly went because that's where the money was. 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:56.880 And so this becomes more and more of a part 0:32:57.080 --> 0:32:59.240 of right wing politics because a lot of people on 0:32:59.280 --> 0:33:01.160 the right have a lot of money to be made 0:33:01.680 --> 0:33:04.560 in messaging this kind of stuff and selling this kind 0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:07.440 of stuff. The same thing is true with the civil warshit. 0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:09.920 It's true with these like fears that the government. You know, 0:33:10.080 --> 0:33:11.840 we can sell you storable food, we can sell you 0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:16.600 fucking bunkers. All of this stuff comes out of some 0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:20.240 sort of financial grift. And the biggest thing that most 0:33:20.280 --> 0:33:22.280 of the people involved in this are hoping for. Fucking 0:33:22.400 --> 0:33:27.040 Jack Pisobiec doesn't want to be fucking hiding underground getting 0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:30.160 bombed by the US Air Force. Jack Pisobiec wants to 0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:34.840 make another million dollars off of affiliate sales of bullshit, Right, 0:33:35.280 --> 0:33:38.040 that's what And a lot of these people, these guys 0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:40.320 doing this caravans to the borders, they're not planning on 0:33:40.320 --> 0:33:42.239 spending their own money on gas. They're hoping that they 0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:44.800 can crowdfund a shitload of money. And I'm sure one 0:33:44.800 --> 0:33:47.040 of them will steal all of it and run away, Right, 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:49.320 That's what usually happens with this kind of shit. But 0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:53.200 that's what they're all hoping to do. And so that's 0:33:53.360 --> 0:33:56.080 kind of the over if you want to actually hurt them, 0:33:56.080 --> 0:33:57.720 if you're looking at where do we how do we 0:33:57.800 --> 0:34:00.920 draw a strategic victory out of this, find a way 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:03.400 to damage their ability to profit off of this shit. 0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:06.160 And I do think part of it is not making 0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:08.279 this as big a story as that otherwise might be. 0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:11.200 But that's not simply enough, because the right is large 0:34:11.280 --> 0:34:14.120 enough that just through their media hyping this up, they 0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:16.120 can make a decent amount of money off this stuff. 0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:19.640 So more complex solutions are needed. 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:22.840 Yeah, I do think we should probably discuss like the 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:26.000 potential of Abbot using this in a personal like later 0:34:26.040 --> 0:34:28.560 our presidential run, right, Like, yeah, he's in New Delhi 0:34:28.640 --> 0:34:29.200 at the moment. 0:34:29.360 --> 0:34:30.000 Have you seen here? 0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:34.080 He's a New Delhi hanging out with everybody's favorite pseudo 0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:35.440 dictator of India Modi. 0:34:35.880 --> 0:34:39.239 Yeah, like Abbott trying to build this kind of like 0:34:39.680 --> 0:34:44.799 electoral alliance and international alliance for like fascist like Wolfenstein 0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:49.440 America is is. I think like it's concerning because like 0:34:49.880 --> 0:34:53.840 Trump has a lot of baggage and I think obviously 0:34:53.840 --> 0:34:55.680 he has a great degree of personal support switching in 0:34:55.719 --> 0:34:58.799 the primaries. But if they don't make if they don't 0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:01.560 stick the landing with Trump, I think Abbot is waiting 0:35:01.560 --> 0:35:05.840 in the wings to make that perhaps the more competent 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:08.360 fascists than Trump and make an attempt at running for 0:35:08.400 --> 0:35:09.719 the presidency. 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:13.360 Not good anything else to say, fuck. 0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:17.400 All of them, Yeah, that's it. Sure, But okay, So 0:35:17.600 --> 0:35:20.560 the other thing that you actually can do about this 0:35:21.480 --> 0:35:25.719 is that look, this bullshit, all of this stuff is 0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:29.919 going to continue until there's actually some kind of sustained 0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:33.920 attack by the left on like politically on the border regime. 0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:34.520 Right. 0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:36.880 That was a thing that when I when I was like, 0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:39.120 you know, when I was like like coming up like 0:35:39.160 --> 0:35:42.120 twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, twenty eight, and we were doing right, 0:35:42.440 --> 0:35:45.279 there was Occupy Ice. There was like there were massed demonstrations, 0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:48.120 there was like critical pleasure being applied, and we didn't 0:35:48.120 --> 0:35:49.560 go far enough. Part of the reason we didn't go 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:52.040 far enough is a lot of people fucking a lot 0:35:52.080 --> 0:35:55.200 of very optimistic political groups, like including like PSL et cetera, 0:35:55.239 --> 0:35:58.440 et cetera, like hijacked a lot of these things and 0:35:58.440 --> 0:36:01.719 pulled people off of occupations. But you know, there was 0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:04.520 actually there were there have been periods in my lifetime, 0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:06.560 like not that long ago, where there was actually forward 0:36:06.600 --> 0:36:08.479 progress being made about this ship to the point where 0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:10.440 like even that we're like the Democrats were trying to 0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:14.200 co opt it, and it doesn't fucking have to be 0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:16.879 like this, Like we don't. We don't have to have 0:36:17.239 --> 0:36:19.359 hundreds of people fucking dying at the border every year. 0:36:19.400 --> 0:36:21.520 We don't have to have people in open air fucking prisons. 0:36:21.520 --> 0:36:23.120 It doesn't have to be like this. We can fight 0:36:23.200 --> 0:36:27.480 them and we can win, but it requires actually like 0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:31.400 it requires actually going and fighting, and you know, you 0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:33.080 have you have to you have to actually be willing 0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:34.280 to do this. You have to be willing to commit 0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:36.880 to the organizing. But if we don't, if we just 0:36:37.000 --> 0:36:41.120 keep leaving all of this ship to like just the 0:36:41.239 --> 0:36:46.279 literal howling fascists and then Biden who is like it, 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:48.680 like on on the border doing the same thing but 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.560 not being but not like howling about it. Yeah, yeah, 0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:53.960 you know, like this this this, this country is going 0:36:54.000 --> 0:36:56.440 to go into fucking oblivion and we are we are going, 0:36:56.560 --> 0:36:58.600 like you're you're going to see in your lifetime the 0:36:58.680 --> 0:37:01.279 US government shooting people on the board like with machine guns. 0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:01.440 Right. 0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:04.080 If we don't stop this fucking now, that is that 0:37:04.200 --> 0:37:06.480 is what you are going to live to see. And 0:37:06.600 --> 0:37:09.000 it does not. We don't. We don't have to. We 0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:11.319 don't have to live in that world. But you have 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:12.520 to act now. 0:37:13.960 --> 0:37:16.880 Yeah, I think that's a great Like it is also 0:37:16.920 --> 0:37:20.800 within our power to like, there is not a voting option, 0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:23.240 but there is always a mutual aid option at the border. 0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:25.719 And I know I bang on about this, but like, 0:37:25.800 --> 0:37:28.000 if you are within range of the border, you can 0:37:28.040 --> 0:37:31.120 go and help. If you're not, there are migrant communities 0:37:31.440 --> 0:37:34.640 in your city, in your town who need your help. 0:37:35.040 --> 0:37:38.480 And like, the way we get through to our boomer 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:43.200 uncles and Facebook ants and stuff is by showing them 0:37:43.200 --> 0:37:45.840 that migrants are people with stories who are just the 0:37:45.880 --> 0:37:48.160 same as you, and they just want a chance to 0:37:48.239 --> 0:37:49.960 raise their kids someone where they're not going to get 0:37:50.000 --> 0:37:53.560 fucking killed by a car bomb. And that the more 0:37:53.680 --> 0:37:56.400 human interactions more people going to have with migrants, and 0:37:56.400 --> 0:37:59.320 the more stories we can tell that's center migrants as people, 0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:04.320 artest numbers or tsunami or any fg humanizing gretoric like, 0:38:04.640 --> 0:38:06.920 the more likely we are to take the teeth out 0:38:06.960 --> 0:38:11.120 of this. And that's something that all of us can do. Yes, 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:15.160 all right, So that's a good thing to end on. 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:20.120 And obviously by our storable foods, go to pissing my 0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:24.560 Pants dried Foods dot net and use promo code Robert 0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:27.719 Evans says the apocalypse is coming. It's a very long 0:38:27.800 --> 0:38:30.360 promo code, but you will get Actually it increases the 0:38:30.440 --> 0:38:34.439 price by fifteen percent, but please do it anyway. Yeah, 0:38:34.480 --> 0:38:37.040 well we get more money. That's gonna be it for 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:39.879 us here, And it could happen here until next time. 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:43.160 I don't know, go to sleep with dreams of a 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:48.280 jdam taking out Greg Abbott right in the Austin Capitol Building. 0:38:48.480 --> 0:38:53.200 Just bam baby. It won't happen, but it is a 0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:54.400 funny thing to think about. 0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:11.080 Welcome to Dick It Happened Here, a podcast that is 0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:18.560 in no small part about the increasing and escalating series 0:39:18.600 --> 0:39:21.200 of anti trans laws being passed around the country. It's 0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:23.759 another one of those episodes. Things are getting worse, things 0:39:23.800 --> 0:39:27.120 are also getting weird. And with me to talk about 0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:32.520 worse and weird is Kay and Lee from Health Liberation 0:39:32.680 --> 0:39:33.879 Now welcome to the show. 0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:34.680 Yeah. 0:39:34.800 --> 0:39:38.520 I'm excited to talk to you both because, Okay, very 0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:43.640 very odd stuff has been happening. So the main reason 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:45.359 I wanted to have Eat You on is to talk 0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:48.160 about the stuff that's been happening in Ohio. So for 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:52.640 people who are unaware, Ohio's legislature has been trying to 0:39:52.719 --> 0:39:57.040 pass a very draconian ban on all gender firmcare for minors. 0:39:57.440 --> 0:40:01.360 The States Republican governor vetoed the bill, and this was 0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:04.279 for about one day. There was a lot of sort 0:40:04.320 --> 0:40:08.080 of like liberal cheering about like ah a compassionate Republicans, 0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:10.920 blah blah blah blah. And then immediately after that, like 0:40:11.040 --> 0:40:13.759 like like the next day, when all of all of 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:15.720 us we haven't even like we hadn't even really gotten 0:40:15.760 --> 0:40:17.600 into the weight hold on, He's going to do something else. 0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:18.080 Uh. 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:22.680 The thing that Dwine did is is you know, and 0:40:22.800 --> 0:40:25.120 this is this is being framed as like an attempt 0:40:25.160 --> 0:40:28.080 to stave off the veto, which hasn't worked so far. 0:40:28.719 --> 0:40:32.319 But he immediately implemented a bunch of rules that say 0:40:32.480 --> 0:40:34.920 that in order to get gender firming care, and this 0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:38.239 is true of both minors and adults, which makes it 0:40:38.400 --> 0:40:41.560 in a lot of ways more draconian than the actual bill. 0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:45.320 It's quote unquote supposed to be preventing like getting passed. 0:40:46.000 --> 0:40:48.399 If you want to get gender refirming care, you need 0:40:49.440 --> 0:40:54.279 recommendations from a psychiatrist, an endocrinologist, and a bioethicist. And 0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:58.560 also all gender firmingcare in the state has to be 0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:01.879 reported to the government, and there's like other stuff too. 0:41:02.960 --> 0:41:06.360 So this is the technical term for this is this 0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:07.560 is extremely bad. 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:16.320 Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean he also signed an executive 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:19.399 order just banning surgery for everyone under eighteen too. 0:41:19.920 --> 0:41:21.240 Yeah so yeah. 0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:24.880 Yeah, I mean also I think I believe it was 0:41:24.920 --> 0:41:26.919 like everyone under twenty one also had to go through 0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:29.359 six months of counseling as well. 0:41:29.840 --> 0:41:36.480 Yes, yeah, at least six months of counseling. Yeah, there's 0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:37.240 no upper. 0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:38.000 Cap mm hmm. 0:41:38.200 --> 0:41:40.800 And like a lot of this was the wine and 0:41:40.920 --> 0:41:44.120 his spokespeople have ended up like justifying a lot of this, 0:41:44.320 --> 0:41:50.040 like trying to use language from clinicians working at clinics 0:41:50.120 --> 0:41:53.239 in Ohio that see trans youth and be like, well, 0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:58.719 you know, they're taking this comprehensive multidisciplinary approach, and most 0:41:58.760 --> 0:42:01.360 of the people they see like get counseling instead of 0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:04.800 medical transitions. So they're actually like using a lot of 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:08.879 the testimony against the band to try to justify these 0:42:09.120 --> 0:42:11.719 rules and regulations. And I don't think they're acting in 0:42:11.800 --> 0:42:13.719 good faith because when you actually like look up the 0:42:13.800 --> 0:42:16.120 details are like, well, this would basically make it almost 0:42:16.160 --> 0:42:19.440 impossible for anyone at any age to transition. But it's 0:42:19.480 --> 0:42:21.640 like you know, it's a very sneaky smart move right, 0:42:21.880 --> 0:42:24.320 like being like, oh, look, we're trying to find a compromise. 0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:26.840 We're trying to make sure everyone gets good healthcare. And 0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:30.600 you know, unfortunately sometimes liberals and liberal media i'll just 0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:33.520 kind of eat that up without really looking at the details. 0:42:34.840 --> 0:42:37.000 Yeah, And one of the things that's happening here too 0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:42.319 is that so the US, where in places where there's 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:46.319 pretty good access to gender a firming healthcare, it works 0:42:46.360 --> 0:42:49.920 off of something called informed consent. And informed consent is 0:42:50.600 --> 0:42:55.440 like okay, so you go there, they tell you what 0:42:56.480 --> 0:42:58.480 is going to happen, and you talk, you talk to 0:42:58.920 --> 0:43:02.520 like a nurse or a doctor, and then once you 0:43:02.760 --> 0:43:06.000 know the like what you're actually getting into, you say 0:43:06.120 --> 0:43:08.200 yes or no if you want to do something right. 0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:11.000 And you know, this is a this is a pretty 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:15.640 good system. It still can be really annoying to navigate 0:43:16.040 --> 0:43:19.640 because of insurance stuff, and you know, like there's definitely 0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:21.799 problems with it, but it's a it's a much better 0:43:21.960 --> 0:43:25.000 system than exists in a lot of places. And you know, 0:43:25.120 --> 0:43:28.480 I think there have been two sets of comparisons about 0:43:28.600 --> 0:43:30.960 what these restrictions look like. And we're going to get 0:43:31.040 --> 0:43:34.680 to the comparisons to uh tart restrictions on abortion in 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:36.520 a second, But I want to talk about another thing 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:40.200 that these restrictions strike me as very similar to, which 0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:42.760 is the British system. And the way the British system 0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:44.440 works is you get put on a wait list and 0:43:44.480 --> 0:43:46.800 then you die, or you go to our media like 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:48.080 those are those are your options? 0:43:48.239 --> 0:43:48.399 Right? 0:43:48.719 --> 0:43:50.680 Or or you're really wealthy and you can you can 0:43:50.760 --> 0:43:52.880 bypass the public healthcare system and go to the private 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:56.200 healthcare system. But you know, like I hope, like I 0:43:57.360 --> 0:44:01.200 hope you are like the air to mansion before you 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:04.840 start that process, or you're in serious trouble. The thing 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.480 about the British system is there's all of these paths 0:44:07.560 --> 0:44:10.239 of interlocking experts. You have to go through it every 0:44:10.280 --> 0:44:12.319 single you have to get signatures from every single one 0:44:12.400 --> 0:44:15.720 of them. And what this means is you have this enormous, 0:44:16.080 --> 0:44:19.759 sort of interminable British gender bureaucracy whose only job and 0:44:19.840 --> 0:44:22.399 only the only thing they want to do is stop 0:44:22.440 --> 0:44:26.120 you from getting healthcare. There's a very very good Philosophy 0:44:26.200 --> 0:44:29.360 Tube episode about this about what it's actually like to 0:44:29.440 --> 0:44:32.360 be in that system, and it's terrible, and this is 0:44:32.440 --> 0:44:35.359 a this is what the kinds of things that are 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:38.080 being proposed here are. In a lot of they're it's 0:44:38.080 --> 0:44:39.960 not exactly the same, it's the British system, but it's 0:44:40.040 --> 0:44:43.879 it's bringing it much closer to that system where it's 0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:48.080 basically impossible to get healthcare. And the thing about the 0:44:48.200 --> 0:44:51.400 British system and about these restrictions where you know you 0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:54.560 have to have like a bioethicistant, a psychiatrist and endocrinologist 0:44:54.640 --> 0:44:56.320 and you have to like do all you have to 0:44:56.600 --> 0:44:58.759 jump through all of these troops, is that at every 0:44:58.840 --> 0:45:02.080 single point in the pri there is another gender bureaucrat 0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:05.480 who can just by themself decide that they're just doing 0:45:05.680 --> 0:45:09.240 a trans healthcare band. And you know, every every individual 0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:11.120 person you put into the process is another person who 0:45:11.160 --> 0:45:14.080 could just say no. And that's what the bridge system works, 0:45:14.200 --> 0:45:16.080 is that someone in the process just says no and 0:45:16.320 --> 0:45:18.359 you die in a wait list. Yeah. 0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:21.960 I mean, we know trans people in Britain and in 0:45:22.080 --> 0:45:25.040 other European countries where they have like a lot of gatekeeping, 0:45:25.280 --> 0:45:27.440 and you know, all of them have warned us like 0:45:27.480 --> 0:45:30.279 you do not want this coming to the US. Yeah, 0:45:30.560 --> 0:45:33.359 you know, reminding us like all the time, like how 0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:35.520 much easier. Are a lot of US trans people have 0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:38.480 it in terms of accessing healthcare, and just like, yeah, 0:45:38.560 --> 0:45:41.880 I mean everything I've heard about, like the UK healthcare 0:45:42.080 --> 0:45:47.400 system sounds like nightmarish. People asking invasive questions about like 0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:51.680 your sexuality or your trauma history or for youth that 0:45:51.760 --> 0:45:56.280 often ends up like involving like genital inspections for some reason, 0:45:56.320 --> 0:46:00.400 it just sounds like a horrible, dehumanizing, violating experience. And 0:46:00.440 --> 0:46:03.240 then yeah, like a lot of people like spend years, 0:46:03.560 --> 0:46:06.839 years and years if they you know, and are lucky 0:46:06.880 --> 0:46:08.880 if they do it, are able to access care. A 0:46:08.920 --> 0:46:10.880 lot of people have to go private if they can 0:46:10.920 --> 0:46:11.320 afford to. 0:46:12.160 --> 0:46:17.000 Honestly, before, I mean technically it was during but before 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:22.640 the full like onslaught of bills started to hit the US, 0:46:23.160 --> 0:46:26.320 Like there were Brits that were trying to sound the 0:46:26.400 --> 0:46:29.200 alarm and get the message out to US base. 0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:30.000 Yeah, like it was. 0:46:29.960 --> 0:46:34.040 Around when the Currabell ruling happened. Crabelle was a d 0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:38.320 trans woman who's later was affiliated with the ADF, with 0:46:38.440 --> 0:46:41.800 the British branch of Alliance depending Freedom, which is behind 0:46:41.840 --> 0:46:44.880 a lot of the It's like an international Christian nationalist 0:46:44.960 --> 0:46:49.520 organization that's behind a lot of the healthcare bands in 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:53.520 the US as well, also the abortion birth control. Yeah, 0:46:54.840 --> 0:46:58.960 really nasty people. But anyway, so like Currabell, this d 0:46:59.080 --> 0:47:00.960 trends woman, It's like she sued. 0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:02.720 The NHS. 0:47:03.760 --> 0:47:07.080 For allowing her to transition and originally like won her 0:47:07.200 --> 0:47:09.879 case and that led to basically. 0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:10.319 Like the end of. 0:47:11.880 --> 0:47:15.360 Transitioning for you. Yeah, she submitted a judicial review. 0:47:16.120 --> 0:47:21.760 The initial review was favorable to her, but upon further review, 0:47:22.280 --> 0:47:25.759 the appeals did end up overturning it. But by that point, 0:47:25.840 --> 0:47:28.680 the damage had already been done. Yeah, a bunch of 0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:31.920 people were starting to lose access to care, and the 0:47:32.160 --> 0:47:34.399 likes and the wheels were starting to spin internally as 0:47:34.480 --> 0:47:37.759 well in terms of the Tavistock system and so like. 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:39.880 As a result, like the wait lists just ended up 0:47:39.920 --> 0:47:40.560 getting longer and. 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:41.320 Longer and longer. 0:47:42.200 --> 0:47:44.800 So that was like a huge blow that happened in 0:47:44.800 --> 0:47:48.560 the UK and like UK trails people like basically like 0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:51.560 by that point, it starting trying to warn people in 0:47:51.640 --> 0:47:54.080 the US like this is going to come for you too, Yeah, 0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:57.120 like get ready, like they had already been already been 0:47:57.200 --> 0:48:00.560 like suffering under this like no anti transplants for a while, 0:48:00.680 --> 0:48:03.480 and they knew it was going to spread down the 0:48:03.520 --> 0:48:06.440 borders of the UK, and unfortunately it has. 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:07.040 Yeah. 0:48:07.480 --> 0:48:10.960 In like the very early stages of our project, when 0:48:11.000 --> 0:48:13.280 we launched at the beginning of twenty twenty one, almost 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:18.680 immediately after the Carabell initial ruling, we hosted a transcript 0:48:18.800 --> 0:48:20.919 of a podcast from Blood and Turf that was trying 0:48:20.960 --> 0:48:25.080 to deliver this message over to US based comrades, and 0:48:25.320 --> 0:48:28.520 unfortunately it does not appear to have reached as many 0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:31.000 people as it really needed to. But we do have 0:48:31.160 --> 0:48:33.560 that available in the event that people can still learn 0:48:33.640 --> 0:48:36.640 from it, because this onslot is not going to stop. 0:48:37.120 --> 0:48:38.239 Yeah, it's not. 0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:42.759 Yeah, And I think one of the things that we're 0:48:42.800 --> 0:48:45.920 seeing now is that we're now seeing kind of an 0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:49.560 opening of new fronts in a way where you have, 0:48:49.960 --> 0:48:52.800 in the same state at the same time you have 0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:55.359 both what I guess I would call the American style 0:48:55.400 --> 0:49:00.879 approach of just straight up bands and then this kind 0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:04.000 of an attempt to implement this sort of British like, 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:07.000 you know, attempt to implement this sort of like British 0:49:07.080 --> 0:49:11.719 ender bureaucracy system. And one of the things that's been 0:49:11.760 --> 0:49:15.320 happening with this is, you know, Okay, so there's a 0:49:15.360 --> 0:49:18.920 lot of places where there's inspirations coming for this, and 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:21.759 I think, you know, we mentioned it briefly earlier. One 0:49:21.760 --> 0:49:26.680 of the inspirations for this is obviously parp restrictions on abortion, 0:49:26.880 --> 0:49:31.879 where you have these like unbelievably restricted like basically these 0:49:31.960 --> 0:49:36.640 targeted things. When before, before Roe v. Wade collapsed, there 0:49:36.840 --> 0:49:39.880 was you know, you could you could ban abortions by 0:49:39.960 --> 0:49:44.000 for example, you know, saying like passing a bill that 0:49:44.120 --> 0:49:47.240 says that, like, okay, if you want to do abortions 0:49:47.280 --> 0:49:50.600 in a hospital, the walls in the hallways have to 0:49:50.680 --> 0:49:54.400 be like exactly like this diameter, which is not the 0:49:54.480 --> 0:49:58.040 same diameter as like as as normal hospital walls are. 0:49:58.160 --> 0:50:00.400 So now you can't do abortions in hospitals, And so 0:50:00.680 --> 0:50:03.360 they do things like this, right, and this is you know, 0:50:03.520 --> 0:50:06.279 and this has been a huge problem for a long time. 0:50:06.760 --> 0:50:09.200 Answer anti abortion activists have been talking about it for ages. 0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:15.359 The Democrat Party did nothing. So you know, that's I think, 0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:17.840 I think it's sort of like forwarding of where this 0:50:18.040 --> 0:50:18.399 is going. 0:50:19.640 --> 0:50:25.319 Yeah, a direct parallel is actually over in Arizona, if 0:50:25.480 --> 0:50:28.120 I remember correctly, because one of the things that they 0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:31.880 ended up doing down in Arizona is a requirement that 0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:38.439 they tried to implement was this rather controversial piece where 0:50:38.440 --> 0:50:43.560 they also had to provide information on abortion reversals using 0:50:43.680 --> 0:50:44.719 certain types. 0:50:44.520 --> 0:50:46.000 Of hormone care. 0:50:46.239 --> 0:50:50.320 Right, similar to how in order for people to be 0:50:50.480 --> 0:50:54.760 able to provide gender firming care they have to provide 0:50:54.800 --> 0:50:57.920 information about detransition and stuff like that. But when you 0:50:58.000 --> 0:51:00.480 actually start to look at some of the data, not 0:51:00.560 --> 0:51:01.759 all of it, but it's some of the data that 0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:06.279 they are relying on to inform people of this, it 0:51:06.520 --> 0:51:11.600 is a wildly biased sample or just downright pseudoscience. Right, Like, 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:16.080 they looked at the evidence base for the abortion reversals 0:51:16.120 --> 0:51:18.319 and it didn't actually work the way that they were 0:51:18.400 --> 0:51:21.440 saying it was, and it was actually coming from very 0:51:21.600 --> 0:51:22.200 very very. 0:51:22.239 --> 0:51:24.439 Explicitly motivated groups. Right. 0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:28.520 So, Yeah, like abortion has been difficult to access in 0:51:28.680 --> 0:51:31.960 Arizona for a very long time in part because of 0:51:32.239 --> 0:51:37.319 some of these like obnoxious requirements that people end up 0:51:37.400 --> 0:51:39.080 putting into place through trap laws. 0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:42.520 Yeah, And you know, I think it's it's worth noting that, like, 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:45.080 and this is true of both the anti trans bands 0:51:45.239 --> 0:51:49.799 and the and anti abortion legislation, is that, like it's 0:51:50.440 --> 0:51:52.520 the science, they're just making it up. A lot of 0:51:52.560 --> 0:51:55.160 the time, Like, you know, one of the like one 0:51:55.160 --> 0:51:57.600 of the very famous things is these like fetal heartbeat 0:51:57.760 --> 0:52:02.440 bills that required like and the thing about like fetal 0:52:02.480 --> 0:52:06.480 heartbeat bills is that fetuses don't have heartbeats. You're not 0:52:06.760 --> 0:52:10.279 hearing a heartbeat, Like doctors will like force you to 0:52:10.320 --> 0:52:12.080 listen to this. It's like that it's not what's happening. 0:52:12.200 --> 0:52:16.880 It's literally not a heartbeat. But these people, like they 0:52:16.960 --> 0:52:19.120 put a stethoscope to a women's chest and heard a 0:52:19.200 --> 0:52:21.640 beating and we're like, oh shit, it's the baby's heart. 0:52:21.680 --> 0:52:24.080 And it's like, no, it doesn't have a heart, Like wait, 0:52:24.760 --> 0:52:27.080 this is a fetus, Like what are you even talking about? 0:52:27.640 --> 0:52:30.200 But you know, and this kind of stuff, right is 0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:33.839 you know, they're they're they're they're basically they're they're doing 0:52:34.000 --> 0:52:36.920 just scientific malpractice, right, They're straight up lying to people, 0:52:37.480 --> 0:52:41.320 and then they're using that as a justification for you know, 0:52:41.480 --> 0:52:45.160 actual legislation which has sort of material impact and like 0:52:45.239 --> 0:52:47.080 you know, carries the force of the law behind it. 0:52:47.120 --> 0:52:48.240 Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 0:52:48.960 --> 0:52:51.080 And we've been seeing a lot of very similar kinds 0:52:51.120 --> 0:52:55.560 of things from from these anti trans legislation and one 0:52:55.600 --> 0:52:57.960 of one of the ways that they've been able to 0:52:58.800 --> 0:53:04.080 use sort of pseudoscience, it's to get restrictions on healthcare past. 0:53:04.239 --> 0:53:08.000 And this is true both of sort of the straight 0:53:08.080 --> 0:53:11.400 up bands and also of these kind of like massive 0:53:11.400 --> 0:53:15.880 bureaucratic restrictions, is by allying with groups of sort of 0:53:16.200 --> 0:53:20.239 right wing de transitioners. And we're going to talk about 0:53:20.320 --> 0:53:24.719 that more after this AD break, because we unfortunately are 0:53:25.200 --> 0:53:40.360 reliant on ads to cover this stuff. So yeah, here's ads. Okay, 0:53:40.440 --> 0:53:44.279 we are back, and this is the point where we 0:53:44.320 --> 0:53:47.360 need to talk about the stuff in the Ohio story 0:53:47.800 --> 0:53:53.279 that is very weird. Now. I think if people have 0:53:53.400 --> 0:53:57.040 been following the story of sort of anti trans bills, 0:53:57.120 --> 0:53:58.960 one of the things that's been happening a lot is 0:53:59.000 --> 0:54:01.360 there's been this sort of there's there's a network of 0:54:02.320 --> 0:54:06.680 people who de transitioned for various reasons I don't know, 0:54:07.160 --> 0:54:09.840 who have become very very hardline right wingers who have 0:54:09.920 --> 0:54:14.440 basically been doing like circuits of of the capitals of 0:54:14.680 --> 0:54:16.680 you know, like state capitals and like going to Capitol 0:54:16.719 --> 0:54:19.759 Hill and like telling their quote unquote stories to try 0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:22.000 to get this to try to get like all trans 0:54:22.080 --> 0:54:25.320 healthcare bands. Now, so this is you know, this is 0:54:25.400 --> 0:54:27.160 something we've covered on the show in the past. What 0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:30.719 is very weird about Ohio is that you had a 0:54:30.960 --> 0:54:36.960 group of these right wing transitioners who specifically we're trying 0:54:37.239 --> 0:54:39.680 to get it looked like at very at least we're 0:54:39.719 --> 0:54:43.560 trying to get or trying to stop the like the 0:54:43.680 --> 0:54:46.879 actual uh like gender firming care ban from going through, 0:54:47.640 --> 0:54:50.480 and we're in favor of more of this restriction stuff. 0:54:50.520 --> 0:54:50.880 Is that is that? 0:54:51.080 --> 0:54:51.200 Is that? 0:54:51.239 --> 0:54:52.600 What am I getting this right? 0:54:53.280 --> 0:54:55.880 Not not exactly. There's a couple of. 0:54:56.120 --> 0:54:59.279 No, okay roles. Sorry, I'm I. 0:55:00.080 --> 0:55:05.479 I can provide my my brief description here real quick, 0:55:05.880 --> 0:55:08.640 and then you can retake aspects of that stuff. Because 0:55:08.960 --> 0:55:11.719 something to bear in mind is the fact that, like 0:55:12.040 --> 0:55:17.000 some of the opposition in the Ohio testimonies are actually 0:55:17.160 --> 0:55:20.200 coming from people who view themselves as very left wing. 0:55:20.360 --> 0:55:24.359 They are radical feminists. Specifically, they are just hardcore opposed. 0:55:24.360 --> 0:55:26.640 I mean, I would say they're they're they're actual politics 0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:30.799 for a reactionary even yea, they call themselves left wing. 0:55:30.920 --> 0:55:32.759 They see themselves as being opposed to the right, like 0:55:32.800 --> 0:55:35.120 that's how they present themselves, and they definitely believe that 0:55:35.200 --> 0:55:36.239 they're anti right wing. 0:55:36.560 --> 0:55:43.600 But there's there's also another component. This one is like. 0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:49.000 The nuances are sometimes almost impossible to be able to 0:55:49.080 --> 0:55:52.400 tease out. I swear tomato tomato. But one of the 0:55:52.520 --> 0:55:56.279 people who was a proponent for both this current bill 0:55:56.360 --> 0:55:59.959 and a past bill is actually Corona Cone, who doesn't 0:56:00.080 --> 0:56:03.279 not consider herself to be right wing, though she does 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:05.760 appear to be working with a number of right wing people. 0:56:07.000 --> 0:56:11.200 She considers herself to be quote unquote libertarian. Now, this 0:56:11.640 --> 0:56:14.400 is a red flag for those of us who have 0:56:14.680 --> 0:56:18.560 done any sort of like real engagement with certain types 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:23.200 of libertarians or political organizing or whatever in that if 0:56:23.280 --> 0:56:25.560 you actually pay attention to some of the arguments that 0:56:25.640 --> 0:56:28.160 are being made or the collaborations that are being made, 0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:32.640 you can generally tell which direction their politics are truly 0:56:32.760 --> 0:56:33.640 leaning towards right? 0:56:33.800 --> 0:56:36.400 Is it left wing? Is it right wing? And hers 0:56:36.560 --> 0:56:40.439 have been steering far and far more right wing. 0:56:40.680 --> 0:56:45.160 Like she uses the excuse of, you know, I want 0:56:45.280 --> 0:56:48.040 small government and stuff like that, but if you're working 0:56:48.440 --> 0:56:55.560 with like legislators to put in full on bands, I'm sorry, honey, 0:56:55.600 --> 0:56:56.480 that's not small government. 0:56:57.160 --> 0:56:58.120 That's not small government. 0:56:58.239 --> 0:57:01.160 That is the opposite of small government, truly, and so 0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:05.560 like like it's kind of hard to sort of like 0:57:06.640 --> 0:57:11.600 encapsulate the entirety of like the proponents of the opposition 0:57:11.960 --> 0:57:15.120 into particular political alignments, because a lot of it is 0:57:15.200 --> 0:57:19.920 really based off of like what are their motivations and 0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:21.320 who are they willing to work with? 0:57:21.560 --> 0:57:23.360 Which again, tomato tomato. 0:57:23.520 --> 0:57:26.560 But I'll have to come back to the Corona Cone 0:57:26.560 --> 0:57:28.520 one at some point here too, because that one is 0:57:28.640 --> 0:57:32.200 actually an important timeline in terms of understanding the Ohio bills. 0:57:32.800 --> 0:57:36.320 Mm hmm, yeah, I mean basically, I mean you have 0:57:36.520 --> 0:57:38.960 like these, You do have like right wing beast. 0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:43.440 Transition people like Chloe Cole or Christian Boseley, Laura Becker 0:57:43.640 --> 0:57:47.440 who like do you know they they'll be hanging out 0:57:47.520 --> 0:57:52.200 with like the Heritage Foundation or Billboard Chris or the 0:57:52.320 --> 0:57:55.240 Cue Shop yeah, or Our Duty like and they very 0:57:55.320 --> 0:57:58.320 much are just working to try to pass these full 0:57:58.400 --> 0:57:58.960 on bands. 0:57:59.000 --> 0:58:01.160 But then yeah, you have also these. 0:58:01.160 --> 0:58:05.480 Like d trans Turf and they're more liberal fellow travelers 0:58:06.040 --> 0:58:10.160 who definitely see themselves as being opposed to the right 0:58:10.480 --> 0:58:14.280 and are opposed to I mean, they they're opposed to 0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:16.360 the right because they see right wing Christians as being 0:58:16.400 --> 0:58:19.000 a threat to them as well, and are at least 0:58:19.000 --> 0:58:21.960 smart enough to understand that if you know, right wing 0:58:22.040 --> 0:58:23.920 Christians have their way, they're going to suffer too. 0:58:24.440 --> 0:58:28.360 But they also want to end trans healthcare or restrict it. 0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:30.440 I mean some of the. 0:58:31.440 --> 0:58:34.560 Two of the people who helped organize, helped collect the testimony, 0:58:34.640 --> 0:58:37.560 the group statement that was submitted under the name Are 0:58:37.600 --> 0:58:40.440 you asking why Max and Katie Robinson they have ties 0:58:40.440 --> 0:58:45.520 to Janice Raymond? Dead serious, Yeah they do. Janie Raymond 0:58:45.600 --> 0:58:50.520 help publish Max Robinson's book It over at Spinefects Press, 0:58:50.640 --> 0:58:52.720 this swurf and turf publisher. 0:58:53.720 --> 0:58:57.440 So yeah, they they're not actually a pro. 0:58:57.440 --> 0:59:00.760 Trans like, yeah, well we should we should, so Janice 0:59:00.840 --> 0:59:03.800 Raymond for people who, uh, someone we've we've talked about 0:59:03.840 --> 0:59:06.520 on the show a few times. But Jennie Raymond wrote 0:59:06.560 --> 0:59:10.240 a book called The Transsexual Empire, and okay, so people 0:59:10.360 --> 0:59:14.320 normally leave off the subtitle of it, which is called 0:59:14.360 --> 0:59:17.280 It's the Transsexual Empire. The Making of the she mail. 0:59:17.760 --> 0:59:21.800 It's like one of the original like original anti trans people, 0:59:22.120 --> 0:59:26.320 like incredibly violent transfo like like both both in terms 0:59:26.360 --> 0:59:30.440 of like the career of her work, like physically like 0:59:30.600 --> 0:59:33.960 violently anti trans and yeah, yeah she is. She is 0:59:34.080 --> 0:59:38.040 connected to a lot of the modern anti trans groups 0:59:38.040 --> 0:59:42.000 and also the modern like the modern I don't know 0:59:42.040 --> 0:59:45.400 what you call them, people who are attempting to take 0:59:45.440 --> 0:59:48.160 away trans healthcare but who don't see themselves as anti trans. 0:59:49.120 --> 0:59:51.560 I have no idea how to even summarize that. 0:59:52.800 --> 0:59:55.280 Yeah, bad, I don't know. 0:59:55.360 --> 1:00:01.200 I kind of yes, yeah, yeah, so like I mean yeah, 1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:05.560 and I mean yeah, Max and Kitty fully endorse Janice 1:00:05.640 --> 1:00:06.320 Raymond's theories. 1:00:06.320 --> 1:00:07.160 I mean Janice Raymond. 1:00:07.160 --> 1:00:09.200 One of the things she's famous for is saying that like, 1:00:09.560 --> 1:00:13.560 like transsexualism should be morally mandate out of existence, like 1:00:14.080 --> 1:00:17.040 Max Robinson has said that she supports that. They also 1:00:17.400 --> 1:00:23.720 both I mean Janice Raymond focused heavily on transom and overall, 1:00:24.120 --> 1:00:27.520 and you know, also claim that basically like trans women were, 1:00:28.120 --> 1:00:32.600 you know, committing sexual assault against women just for existing. Yeah, 1:00:32.800 --> 1:00:36.880 Max and Kitty are also horrible transpasogenists to actually make 1:00:36.920 --> 1:00:40.960 I mean, Kitty makes a lot of propaganda tracking attacking 1:00:41.000 --> 1:00:43.760 transomen and trying to cast all trans women as predators 1:00:43.840 --> 1:00:46.280 and yeah, just not people you want on your side, 1:00:46.560 --> 1:00:49.680 because they're not. They're danger to all trans people. They're 1:00:49.760 --> 1:00:53.000 just like trying to find a way to influence trans 1:00:53.080 --> 1:00:56.880 healthcare in a different way. And I mean, I I'm 1:00:57.000 --> 1:00:59.160 concerned that people will hear like, oh, look at all 1:00:59.200 --> 1:01:01.760 these deeds, like these supposedly trans friendly d trans people 1:01:01.760 --> 1:01:04.560 who testified against the SPAN, not realizing that these are 1:01:04.640 --> 1:01:06.200 actually like purse with an agenda. 1:01:07.000 --> 1:01:07.960 Who I mean part of them. 1:01:08.000 --> 1:01:10.080 Part of what they want to do is to infiltrate 1:01:10.400 --> 1:01:15.560 like queer and trans subcultures and promo like profideology and 1:01:15.920 --> 1:01:18.760 recruit people like let's put it this way. 1:01:18.880 --> 1:01:21.640 So Max Robinson in terms of some of her beliefs 1:01:22.320 --> 1:01:27.760 refers to medical transition for like trans masculine folks as 1:01:27.840 --> 1:01:31.400 a sato ritual, going back to Mary daily types of 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:35.520 descriptions of things. And then Kitty was one of the 1:01:35.640 --> 1:01:40.840 people that was interviewed for and gave extensive background information 1:01:41.480 --> 1:01:45.200 for a BBC article that was released. I believe it 1:01:45.320 --> 1:01:47.680 was called something along the lines of we are being 1:01:47.760 --> 1:01:51.400 pressured into sex by some trans women, which is basically yes, 1:01:51.520 --> 1:01:55.880 that one right, Like so yeah, being into this narrative 1:01:56.040 --> 1:01:59.680 that trans women are sexual predators right into the British 1:01:59.720 --> 1:02:03.320 media when they were already having a massive influx of 1:02:03.560 --> 1:02:08.400 anti trans media that was again feeding into the demonization 1:02:08.920 --> 1:02:11.240 of trans people as a whole, but then also like 1:02:11.560 --> 1:02:13.640 controlling trans youth and the likes. And of course this 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:17.320 article not only did it end up originally platforming like 1:02:17.440 --> 1:02:19.200 an actual like serial rape. 1:02:19.320 --> 1:02:23.320 Yeah, Lily kaid like someone someone a serial rapist so 1:02:23.440 --> 1:02:28.280 prolific that like, within like maybe thirty minutes of this 1:02:28.440 --> 1:02:33.040 article going up, like multiple like probably like a dozen 1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:35.480 people had come forward and been like she raped me, 1:02:35.880 --> 1:02:40.200 Like that is the person that the BBC was like 1:02:40.520 --> 1:02:42.080 coming forward to do this shit with. 1:02:43.000 --> 1:02:47.320 Yeah, she ended up posting basically a manifesto on her 1:02:47.400 --> 1:02:51.520 website that was even more extreme than aspects of the 1:02:51.680 --> 1:02:53.800 article showed off. And then I will also note that 1:02:53.880 --> 1:02:57.240 this article was originally I believe it was only translated 1:02:57.360 --> 1:03:00.360 into Portuguese in order to be oh yeah, moved into 1:03:00.440 --> 1:03:02.880 BBC still zilla yeah yeah, which is also one of 1:03:02.920 --> 1:03:05.080 the countries that has one of the highest rates of 1:03:05.200 --> 1:03:08.720 trans femicide. So like, yeah, these these are the people 1:03:08.840 --> 1:03:13.080 that decided to go ahead and testify. Yeah, Like, well, 1:03:13.240 --> 1:03:15.120 I'm those of personally bring up Max and Kitty because 1:03:15.120 --> 1:03:16.560 like they were some of the people who helped like 1:03:16.800 --> 1:03:20.480 get the testimonies. Like I found a post on Kitty's 1:03:20.600 --> 1:03:24.720 Tumblr blog looking for d trans and Desisted women who 1:03:24.760 --> 1:03:27.800 were willing to testify against a ban, and then Max 1:03:27.920 --> 1:03:31.880 was the one who actually submitted the collective statement from 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:35.200 Arius and Wise. He also submitted an individual statement to 1:03:35.560 --> 1:03:37.680 So basically like they found a bunch of like de 1:03:37.840 --> 1:03:40.760 trans and desisted turfs on Tumblr to sign a statement 1:03:41.480 --> 1:03:44.000 and then submit to like the state of Ohio, which is. 1:03:44.040 --> 1:03:45.000 Kind of wild to think about. 1:03:45.920 --> 1:03:52.640 Yeah, you don't normally expect to see testimony from turf Tumblr, 1:03:53.000 --> 1:03:54.480 let alone transfer Tumblr. 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:57.760 But that is, like that really happened. Yeah, really, who 1:03:57.840 --> 1:03:58.760 you want to show up for you? 1:04:01.000 --> 1:04:01.240 Yeah? 1:04:02.000 --> 1:04:05.840 Really really not good in terms of who you want 1:04:05.920 --> 1:04:12.000 doing your legislation, Like oh god, yeah yeah. So okay, 1:04:12.040 --> 1:04:15.040 we need to take another ad break and then we 1:04:15.080 --> 1:04:17.800 will come back and talk more about this. So enjoy 1:04:18.200 --> 1:04:21.680 your brief capitalistic respite from the horror of capitalism. 1:04:32.040 --> 1:04:32.680 We are back. 1:04:33.440 --> 1:04:37.400 In order to properly understand the situation in Ohio, you 1:04:37.560 --> 1:04:40.960 kind of have to go back several years, right. One 1:04:41.000 --> 1:04:44.720 of the bills that ended up being proposed in twenty 1:04:44.800 --> 1:04:49.280 twenty was HB five to one three. This was another 1:04:49.480 --> 1:04:53.400 version of a proposed ban on gender firming care for 1:04:53.520 --> 1:04:58.080 trans youth in particular, and it was sponsored by Representatives 1:04:58.200 --> 1:05:01.760 Ron Hood and Bill Dean. This one is interesting because 1:05:02.000 --> 1:05:05.480 one of the groups that ended up coming out in 1:05:05.640 --> 1:05:10.960 opposition to it was the Gendercare Consumer Advocacy Network. This 1:05:11.160 --> 1:05:15.280 is the organization that I helped found in twenty nineteen 1:05:15.400 --> 1:05:20.280 prior to my resignation. They submitted this opposition after my resignation, 1:05:20.520 --> 1:05:25.600 but it is available on archives. Then in twenty twenty 1:05:25.720 --> 1:05:30.080 one and the twenty twenty two legislative session, there was 1:05:30.320 --> 1:05:33.920 the proposal for HP four or five four, which was 1:05:34.040 --> 1:05:38.040 another proposed ban on gender for main care for trans youth. 1:05:38.160 --> 1:05:41.560 This time it was being sponsored by Representative Gary Klick, 1:05:41.960 --> 1:05:45.120 who was also the sponsor of the current bill that 1:05:45.440 --> 1:05:49.360 had recently been vetoed. And then the V two vtwed 1:05:49.920 --> 1:05:53.960 And in May of twenty twenty two, the Gendercare Consumer 1:05:54.000 --> 1:06:00.840 Advocacy Network or GCCAM testified in tentative support. The testimony 1:06:00.960 --> 1:06:07.400 was submitted by coronicone and included suggestions for amendments. These 1:06:07.440 --> 1:06:10.480 amendments are actually very important. One of the amendments that 1:06:10.600 --> 1:06:15.080 she recommended was on data tracking. I believe it says 1:06:15.200 --> 1:06:19.200 here the second amendment would be a requirement for physicians 1:06:19.400 --> 1:06:23.800 mental health care providers and other medical healthcare professionals, mandating 1:06:23.880 --> 1:06:27.960 an annual report to the Ohio Department of Health the number, 1:06:28.440 --> 1:06:32.280 age and sex of minor patients who are receiving gender 1:06:32.320 --> 1:06:36.920 transition services of any type. This was what she originally 1:06:37.000 --> 1:06:40.440 proposed as an amendment to the bill. The bill again 1:06:41.000 --> 1:06:44.080 did not end up passing. But now we are seeing 1:06:44.360 --> 1:06:47.520 HB sixty eight, which is the one that merges the 1:06:47.640 --> 1:06:50.680 ban on gender firming care for trans youth and a 1:06:51.080 --> 1:06:55.680 sports ban because I guess, you know, trans youth plane 1:06:55.880 --> 1:07:00.880 chess is somehow like threatening. So this one was again 1:07:01.040 --> 1:07:06.280 represented like sponsored by Representative Click, and this time, curiously enough, 1:07:06.800 --> 1:07:11.520 Karina had been working more extensively with Click during various 1:07:11.600 --> 1:07:12.920 portions of the. 1:07:15.200 --> 1:07:18.200 Of the push for the bill. Right you know, she testified. 1:07:17.840 --> 1:07:22.080 Multiple times she's posted videos with him, pictures, et cetera. 1:07:22.920 --> 1:07:27.320 Another person who had originally founded the organization, Carrie Callahan, 1:07:28.000 --> 1:07:32.520 did originally start opposing. Curiously, she did not note her 1:07:32.840 --> 1:07:37.800 prior experience with the organization, but she did start to 1:07:37.960 --> 1:07:42.600 oppose the bill and then later starts to put out 1:07:43.760 --> 1:07:45.400 basically like a more. 1:07:45.440 --> 1:07:49.920 General call for opposition to HB sixty eight. 1:07:50.120 --> 1:07:54.960 Right you know, trying to collect in you know, various 1:07:55.040 --> 1:08:00.720 types of detransitioned people who were opposed to bands on 1:08:01.040 --> 1:08:02.400 gender affirming care right. 1:08:03.880 --> 1:08:07.880 And then who is it that ends up showing up. 1:08:09.320 --> 1:08:12.120 It's this weird little like. 1:08:13.840 --> 1:08:18.439 Turf group that originally came out of the trans Turf 1:08:18.520 --> 1:08:24.519 Tumbler in twenty thirteen, that historically speaking, she had prior 1:08:24.640 --> 1:08:30.360 working relationships with and even presented their stories to us path. 1:08:30.520 --> 1:08:34.360 Yeah, and also I mean Max Robinson too, like both her, 1:08:34.840 --> 1:08:37.720 both Max Robinson and Carrie Callahan were both featured in 1:08:37.800 --> 1:08:42.160 Jesse Single's Atlantic article too. There's lots of points of connection. 1:08:43.720 --> 1:08:46.919 They've they've known each other since at least twenty sixteen, 1:08:47.360 --> 1:08:48.799 and you know, work together. 1:08:50.479 --> 1:08:54.439 Like I can't say for certain how it is that 1:08:54.600 --> 1:08:58.960 they ended up there personally, to me, it seems a 1:08:59.000 --> 1:09:05.000 little weird that people who had prior working relationships dating 1:09:05.080 --> 1:09:08.880 back a decade are showing up in the same place again, 1:09:09.640 --> 1:09:15.480 and like they are also showing up in legislative testimony 1:09:15.560 --> 1:09:19.640 for the first time in the state where some like 1:09:19.840 --> 1:09:23.360 one of the central figures for a long time there 1:09:23.560 --> 1:09:27.559 is putting out a call to oppose this particular bill. 1:09:27.800 --> 1:09:32.240 Like the coincidences are racking up a little bit here, 1:09:32.479 --> 1:09:35.000 it might be good to ask some further questions about 1:09:35.040 --> 1:09:40.160 what exactly happened, because I have some questions. So you know, 1:09:40.360 --> 1:09:43.200 this happened in December of twenty twenty three. 1:09:43.360 --> 1:09:43.519 Right. 1:09:43.800 --> 1:09:49.200 Eventually Governor Dwine goes ahead and vetos, but at the 1:09:49.280 --> 1:09:54.080 same time he makes his you know, proposal for the 1:09:54.200 --> 1:09:58.080 drafting of new regulations with you know, the Department of 1:09:58.120 --> 1:10:03.040 Health and the likes and within that is the suggestion 1:10:03.400 --> 1:10:07.439 of detailed data tracking that is reported to the Department 1:10:07.520 --> 1:10:12.040 of Health and then to the general public every six months, 1:10:12.640 --> 1:10:19.200 focusing on things like, you know, I don't think that 1:10:19.439 --> 1:10:24.639 he wanted to focus on like the number of people 1:10:24.760 --> 1:10:28.360 that were doing it, but he did include a like 1:10:28.840 --> 1:10:32.280 the nature of the diagnosis. It applies to all ages. 1:10:32.360 --> 1:10:37.000 It was not originally restricted to trans youth, like the 1:10:37.160 --> 1:10:43.160 original testimony was from from gc CAN. The time range 1:10:43.320 --> 1:10:46.679 was also ended up being like it's shortened. He wants 1:10:46.720 --> 1:10:49.840 it every six months, not every year. But you know, 1:10:50.960 --> 1:10:53.560 very similar kinds of things, right in terms of what 1:10:53.720 --> 1:10:56.960 it is that he is proposing for this mass collection 1:10:57.160 --> 1:11:01.519 of data. And a previous testimony was submitted to the 1:11:01.600 --> 1:11:08.400 Ohio Legislature in fact, Like, not long after that fact, 1:11:08.960 --> 1:11:12.400 representative clique ended up going on an interview with Tony 1:11:12.479 --> 1:11:16.280 Perkins of Family Research Council talking about the pending veto. 1:11:16.479 --> 1:11:19.960 They originally did this interview on January ninth, and he 1:11:20.439 --> 1:11:26.000 noted that the data collection suggestion was originally included in 1:11:26.080 --> 1:11:30.080 a draft version of his bill, but was removed due 1:11:30.120 --> 1:11:34.320 to opposition, and so he's glad actually that that was included, 1:11:34.640 --> 1:11:38.200 although he wished that there would be even more restrictions. 1:11:38.840 --> 1:11:41.960 He actually was going to encourage the governor to also 1:11:42.080 --> 1:11:45.759 sign an executive order banning the use of puberty blockers, 1:11:45.960 --> 1:11:48.760 not just surgery. As far as I can tell, that 1:11:48.880 --> 1:11:50.760 has not happened, but he did say that he was 1:11:50.840 --> 1:11:51.439 going to try. 1:11:52.680 --> 1:11:53.479 But like. 1:11:55.040 --> 1:12:01.040 It's like there's there's definitely some weird kind of like 1:12:01.400 --> 1:12:05.080 escalations that end up happening, and some of the like 1:12:06.200 --> 1:12:10.320 some of the interconnecting threads with individuals that again just 1:12:10.439 --> 1:12:13.639 happened to keep showing up in the same place over 1:12:13.760 --> 1:12:17.280 and over and over again, either in support or in opposition. 1:12:18.040 --> 1:12:22.080 Some folks have been consistently opposed, whereas other people have 1:12:22.200 --> 1:12:27.120 been kind of flip flopping. The GCCN organization is one 1:12:27.160 --> 1:12:32.960 of the ones that flip flopped. It originally opposed all bands, 1:12:33.040 --> 1:12:35.880 and then now all of a sudden, it's like, you know, 1:12:36.680 --> 1:12:39.400 the person that they are throwing out into these testimonies 1:12:39.560 --> 1:12:42.519 was arguing in favor of them, and then like you 1:12:42.600 --> 1:12:45.720 know the quote unquote are you asking why collective? And 1:12:46.360 --> 1:12:50.400 to be fair, Carrie Callahan have also been firmly opposed 1:12:50.600 --> 1:12:54.040 to full on bands and the Christian right pretty much 1:12:54.040 --> 1:12:57.960 from the beginning, though for very very very different reasons. 1:12:58.720 --> 1:13:00.880 I mean, some other opposition was, well, people will go 1:13:01.040 --> 1:13:03.280 to like could go to other states where there's less restrictions, 1:13:04.600 --> 1:13:07.559 Like no, the stuff we have you know, hiwas already 1:13:07.800 --> 1:13:11.280 like has a lot of restrictions, and majority of trans 1:13:11.400 --> 1:13:13.960 youth like only get counseling and they don't get any 1:13:14.040 --> 1:13:16.639 like none of them get surgery, and most of them, 1:13:16.840 --> 1:13:19.240 like only a very small number of them get puberty 1:13:19.320 --> 1:13:21.559 blockers or horrormones. So this should be like this should 1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:24.600 be an example for the entire country. Like that was 1:13:24.680 --> 1:13:28.800 kind of Carrie Gallahan's take on things. And then like, 1:13:30.320 --> 1:13:33.040 I mean, yeah, a lot of the the more like 1:13:33.200 --> 1:13:37.360 the d transferfs, like the Robinson's or other members of 1:13:37.400 --> 1:13:39.479 our Usking Wives it's like, Okay, well they're opposed to 1:13:39.520 --> 1:13:41.640 the Christian Right, and they recognize that, like if the 1:13:41.720 --> 1:13:44.400 Christian Right gains more power and is banning things, that's 1:13:44.479 --> 1:13:48.880 bad not just for trans people, but also for you know, cis, 1:13:48.960 --> 1:13:51.560 lesbian and gay people and says women, and you know 1:13:51.880 --> 1:13:53.720 it will end up hurting them too. So I mean, 1:13:53.880 --> 1:13:57.040 even from a self preservation stance, they understand like why 1:13:57.080 --> 1:13:59.559 they should be opposed to the Christian Right, but they're 1:13:59.560 --> 1:14:01.840 still if you actually read their testimony, a lot of 1:14:01.880 --> 1:14:04.280 them do make it clear that they're opposed to transition. 1:14:04.640 --> 1:14:08.160 Like one one person called it like compared medical like 1:14:08.280 --> 1:14:11.600 trans healthcare to like a hydra said that, like it 1:14:11.680 --> 1:14:14.080 would only be cutting off ahead like these aren't. 1:14:14.360 --> 1:14:17.040 Yeah, and so a lot of them were, you know, we're. 1:14:16.920 --> 1:14:21.439 Also kind of praising uh, you know, regulations like the 1:14:22.080 --> 1:14:26.200 group uh statement talks about like it's like, you know, 1:14:26.240 --> 1:14:29.360 shutting down clinics when improve anyone's quality of care. Ohio's 1:14:29.400 --> 1:14:33.880 existing programs are known for their moderation. Uh, they don't 1:14:33.920 --> 1:14:36.720 perform surgery on minors. Many clinics out of state do 1:14:37.400 --> 1:14:38.320 a lota YadA. 1:14:38.600 --> 1:14:46.519 So Max Robinson's testimony also said similar but that she 1:14:46.680 --> 1:14:48.640 had it on good word from an Ohio in. 1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:52.320 Right, I have yes, you had say I hear if 1:14:52.360 --> 1:14:55.040 I'm good authority from an Ohio in that pediatric gender 1:14:55.080 --> 1:14:58.960 clinics their prescribed hormones pretty sparingly and don't actually perform 1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:01.240 any underaged transition surgeries. 1:15:01.720 --> 1:15:05.439 Other states do, though, So there's like. 1:15:05.479 --> 1:15:07.200 This whole thing is like like there's still kind of 1:15:07.240 --> 1:15:11.280 scaremongers like, oh, but these other states, like we're transition 1:15:11.360 --> 1:15:13.960 as a minor, those are bad, but they're still making 1:15:14.000 --> 1:15:16.439 it clear that the idea that people having easy access 1:15:16.560 --> 1:15:18.439 to transition, especially as youth, is like a. 1:15:18.479 --> 1:15:21.200 Bad thing in their minds. 1:15:21.560 --> 1:15:23.640 I don't think we actually mentioned like how like if 1:15:23.680 --> 1:15:26.800 you actually look at the collective statement, that are you 1:15:26.920 --> 1:15:28.040 asking why issued? 1:15:28.120 --> 1:15:29.040 And like who signed it? 1:15:29.200 --> 1:15:31.640 Like a whole bunch of them didn't actually transition, Like 1:15:31.720 --> 1:15:34.840 a lot of them are actually desisted, which means that 1:15:34.920 --> 1:15:39.800 they like never actually medically transition. They considered transitioning or 1:15:39.880 --> 1:15:44.120 maybe socially transitioned, but then they decided not to medically transition, 1:15:44.840 --> 1:15:48.840 possibly after you know, converting to anti transfeminism or the like. 1:15:49.000 --> 1:15:50.800 So it's just a bunch of people who like I 1:15:51.000 --> 1:15:54.760 decided not to transition. I'm desisted, like you know, testifying 1:15:54.800 --> 1:15:57.800 against a healthcare band. That's also like a kind of 1:15:57.840 --> 1:15:59.720 a classic strategy too. It is like they have a 1:15:59.760 --> 1:16:02.880 bunch of like dissisted people along mixed in with people 1:16:02.880 --> 1:16:05.040 who actually like transition and do transition to kind of 1:16:05.120 --> 1:16:06.120 like inflate the numbers. 1:16:06.720 --> 1:16:09.559 Yeah, this is a standard. Yeah, this is very standard. 1:16:10.360 --> 1:16:11.040 It's an old trick. 1:16:11.080 --> 1:16:14.000 It's it's like, oh yeah, you're like okay, yeah, And 1:16:14.040 --> 1:16:15.280 then a bunch of them are also like saying the 1:16:15.320 --> 1:16:17.759 ones who did like you know, transition and new transition, 1:16:17.880 --> 1:16:20.120 they're like emphasizing how they a few of them like 1:16:20.160 --> 1:16:23.720 are emphasizing how young they were when they transitioned and 1:16:24.080 --> 1:16:24.880 be transitioned. 1:16:24.920 --> 1:16:28.000 Again, not exactly, yeah, not exactly. Protraums. 1:16:28.080 --> 1:16:34.719 This collective here with like pretty pretty explicit turf ties, 1:16:35.000 --> 1:16:39.320 including some of them directly to Trannis. Raymond herself was 1:16:39.479 --> 1:16:43.600 the bulk of the opposition from de transitioned people to 1:16:43.680 --> 1:16:47.200 the bill. I should note, like that's fifteen signatures right there. 1:16:47.800 --> 1:16:50.760 People are talking about like how there were nineteen people 1:16:50.880 --> 1:16:55.439 that were opposed, so fifteen of them were either like 1:16:56.000 --> 1:16:59.320 part of the recruitment or actively recruited on d trans 1:16:59.479 --> 1:17:00.200 turfed her. 1:17:00.720 --> 1:17:02.320 Yeah, and then like at least five of them are 1:17:02.400 --> 1:17:06.439 just assisted, they're not to transitioned. It's not clear about everyone, 1:17:06.640 --> 1:17:10.839 but yeah, yeah, it's. 1:17:12.439 --> 1:17:13.240 It's weird. 1:17:13.880 --> 1:17:14.320 It's just. 1:17:16.240 --> 1:17:17.360 It's really weird. 1:17:18.400 --> 1:17:21.799 And it's also been really weird to see the media 1:17:22.040 --> 1:17:27.000 just kind of take that testimony of theirs at face value. 1:17:27.160 --> 1:17:28.680 That it's been a problem for a long time. 1:17:28.720 --> 1:17:30.439 It is like getting the media to actually sort of 1:17:30.600 --> 1:17:35.680 like investigate or care about people's like political views or 1:17:36.040 --> 1:17:38.800 activism or actually kind of being like like sometimes like 1:17:38.880 --> 1:17:42.559 I think, like I say, like the Basilon New York 1:17:42.600 --> 1:17:45.920 Times story we were talking about before has Grace Litnski Smith, 1:17:45.960 --> 1:17:46.439 and they're. 1:17:46.280 --> 1:17:50.040 Without saying that she was you know, affiliated with J. C. 1:17:50.240 --> 1:17:53.479 Kan and she's like not just with the president, she 1:17:53.640 --> 1:17:54.200 was the president. 1:17:54.680 --> 1:17:54.840 Yeah. 1:17:54.920 --> 1:17:56.400 Yeah, so it's like it's like, okay, she's just like 1:17:56.479 --> 1:17:58.920 represented as just like you know, as a deutns woman 1:17:59.000 --> 1:18:00.720 without going into like she she's the head of this 1:18:00.800 --> 1:18:04.080 political organization, and that's just you know, this has happened, 1:18:04.200 --> 1:18:06.599 this has been a problem for years. 1:18:08.160 --> 1:18:08.400 Yeah. 1:18:08.600 --> 1:18:08.800 Yeah. 1:18:09.000 --> 1:18:11.439 So it's just like, I mean, just a whole lot 1:18:11.520 --> 1:18:15.960 of different sketchy characters kind of came out for what's 1:18:16.000 --> 1:18:20.040 going on in Ohio. I mean you have like you know, 1:18:20.120 --> 1:18:23.479 Republicans and right wing Christians who just want to straight 1:18:23.560 --> 1:18:29.519 up ban transition and move towards eliminating it for for 1:18:29.600 --> 1:18:32.439 all trans people and workers, making it you know, as 1:18:32.520 --> 1:18:35.479 impossible for trans people to live in society as they can. 1:18:36.000 --> 1:18:41.360 And then you have kind of more like tricky Republicans 1:18:41.560 --> 1:18:45.960 like DeWine sort of like pretending to find some kind 1:18:46.000 --> 1:18:48.040 of compromise and be like, oh, we're just trying to 1:18:48.120 --> 1:18:52.040 work for like more comprehensive healthcare that is just so 1:18:52.160 --> 1:18:54.640 everyone gets what they need, and like sort of like 1:18:55.200 --> 1:18:58.400 using some of the language that was used by clinicians 1:18:58.800 --> 1:19:01.160 who are trying to fight against the and their testimony 1:19:02.000 --> 1:19:06.320 and you know, trying to claim make these claims, but 1:19:06.360 --> 1:19:09.120 if we actually look at the details, like the regulations 1:19:09.160 --> 1:19:12.759 they're proposing would make it nearly impossible for anyone to transition, 1:19:13.280 --> 1:19:16.479 you know, both youth and adults. And then you have 1:19:16.680 --> 1:19:21.720 like you know, these different medical professionals and kind of 1:19:21.760 --> 1:19:25.840 more liberal transphobic d trans people who want more gatekeeping 1:19:26.280 --> 1:19:29.880 and regulation and control over trans people and are kind 1:19:29.880 --> 1:19:34.360 of like using de transition and transition regret as a 1:19:34.520 --> 1:19:38.599 justification for that or praising being like, oh well, Ohio, 1:19:39.000 --> 1:19:42.320 their youth clinics are already really good because they're very 1:19:42.479 --> 1:19:45.920 cautious and they use therapy a lot more than they 1:19:46.000 --> 1:19:48.479 actually allow youth to medically transition. 1:19:49.360 --> 1:19:51.639 I mean, that argument didn't seem to work out at all. 1:19:52.400 --> 1:19:54.639 Instead, it sounds like the governor kind of was like, oh, 1:19:55.200 --> 1:19:59.960 two thirds of youth only get therapy instead of medical transition, 1:20:00.000 --> 1:20:01.600 and we should do that for everyone. 1:20:03.960 --> 1:20:04.800 It's like sort of like, you know. 1:20:04.800 --> 1:20:07.280 If you propose restrictions, say oh, this is great, then 1:20:07.360 --> 1:20:09.000 of course the people who are more extreme will just 1:20:09.080 --> 1:20:10.240 like take that and run with it. 1:20:11.680 --> 1:20:14.040 And then you know you have uh, you know, d 1:20:14.200 --> 1:20:19.440 trans turfs showing up and testifying for their own weird reasons. 1:20:20.000 --> 1:20:23.320 You know, probably because of their connections to carry Galahan, 1:20:23.479 --> 1:20:25.040 but you know, this also is a chance for them 1:20:25.080 --> 1:20:27.640 to sort of like you know, launder their image, make 1:20:27.680 --> 1:20:29.760 it seem like, oh, look we're good, we're good d 1:20:29.880 --> 1:20:30.519 trans people. 1:20:30.680 --> 1:20:33.919 We oppose the religious right, we're fighting against these bands. 1:20:34.000 --> 1:20:36.000 And then people who don't necessarily like know any better 1:20:36.080 --> 1:20:40.920 will like come here maybe right right, because this is 1:20:40.960 --> 1:20:44.120 like that's a strategy they often pretend to be more 1:20:44.240 --> 1:20:46.120 trans friendly than they really are to sort of like 1:20:46.200 --> 1:20:49.639 draw people in or be able to like influence queer 1:20:49.720 --> 1:20:52.719 and trans communities and slowly slip in like crypto turf 1:20:53.000 --> 1:20:57.519 ideology and recruit people or just space. 1:20:59.479 --> 1:21:02.280 Yeah. So, I mean it's like there's just a whole 1:21:02.400 --> 1:21:02.920 lot of. 1:21:03.040 --> 1:21:07.599 Different you know, anti trans groups and individuals like stretching 1:21:07.680 --> 1:21:12.559 from like paternalistic medical professionals who want more gaykeeping, who 1:21:12.560 --> 1:21:15.720 want to restrict the number of people transitioning like all 1:21:15.760 --> 1:21:18.599 the way to you know, like Christian nationalists you want 1:21:18.640 --> 1:21:18.840 to just. 1:21:18.920 --> 1:21:20.280 You know wipe us out completely. 1:21:20.640 --> 1:21:23.799 And you know, not only h you know, are basically 1:21:23.800 --> 1:21:25.599 at war with bodily autonomy in general. 1:21:25.640 --> 1:21:26.400 They don't want anyway. 1:21:26.400 --> 1:21:27.840 They want to be the ones to control what people 1:21:27.880 --> 1:21:29.600 do with their bodies. Like they also want to you know, 1:21:29.680 --> 1:21:33.240 restrict reproductive care and abortion. It's all part of the 1:21:33.280 --> 1:21:38.160 same war, uh, just control people and assort their version 1:21:38.200 --> 1:21:43.000 of authoritary in Christianity. And then you have you know, uh, 1:21:43.280 --> 1:21:45.280 you know, weird d trans turfs, and it's just like 1:21:45.400 --> 1:21:47.240 all you kind of have to like understand like all 1:21:47.280 --> 1:21:49.639 these different factions and how they sort of like interact 1:21:49.680 --> 1:21:52.120 together and how you know, they try to. 1:21:52.200 --> 1:21:54.599 Use each other, you know, can see them overwhelming. 1:21:54.640 --> 1:21:56.920 But like the more we kind of understand like what 1:21:57.040 --> 1:22:00.000 we're up against, like the easier it is for us 1:22:00.120 --> 1:22:03.400 to develop strategies of resistance. And it's like, you know, 1:22:03.479 --> 1:22:05.439 even though you know it can seem like we're up 1:22:05.439 --> 1:22:07.280 against a lot of different groups, but like, you know, 1:22:07.360 --> 1:22:11.360 we're also part of this larger fight for liberation, and 1:22:11.479 --> 1:22:14.920 you know, we can connect you know with feminists who 1:22:14.920 --> 1:22:17.560 are fighting for reproductive autonomy. We can connect with like 1:22:17.760 --> 1:22:23.000 disability liberation activists who are fighting for better healthcare for everyone. 1:22:24.560 --> 1:22:26.280 We do potentially have lots of allies. 1:22:26.320 --> 1:22:29.639 We do have lots of connections like with other movements, 1:22:31.240 --> 1:22:32.880 and so when you think of it that way, it's like, Okay, 1:22:32.960 --> 1:22:33.840 we're not just like. 1:22:33.920 --> 1:22:36.800 One small group up against this whole like Goliath. 1:22:36.880 --> 1:22:39.560 Let's like, no, we're part of this larger movement that 1:22:39.760 --> 1:22:42.080 is fighting so that everyone is free and that everyone 1:22:42.160 --> 1:22:43.360 gets the health care they deserve. 1:22:44.240 --> 1:22:45.760 Yeah, And I mean I think that one of the 1:22:45.920 --> 1:22:48.800 one of the sort of tangential things here too is 1:22:49.760 --> 1:22:53.439 you know, this is an extremely negative example of the 1:22:53.800 --> 1:22:56.720 amount of influence that a very very small number of 1:22:56.760 --> 1:23:02.240 people can wield who have extremely popular ideologies. On the 1:23:02.320 --> 1:23:04.160 other hand, there are a lot of us and the 1:23:04.240 --> 1:23:07.000 things that we believe are very popular. And you know, 1:23:07.640 --> 1:23:10.439 the amount of power that we can wield if we 1:23:10.479 --> 1:23:13.280 are willing to organize, and we are when we understand 1:23:13.439 --> 1:23:15.800 what we're organizing against is immense, and it is enough 1:23:15.840 --> 1:23:20.519 to drive these people into the fucking ground. Oh yeah, yeah, 1:23:36.400 --> 1:23:38.559 welcome to dig it up in here. This is Mia 1:23:38.640 --> 1:23:40.880 long back with part two of my interview with Kay 1:23:40.960 --> 1:23:44.320 and Lee from Health Liberation Now about the long origins 1:23:44.400 --> 1:23:47.599 of anti trans legislation and policy in Ohio. Let's get 1:23:47.680 --> 1:23:51.320 right into it, Okay. So the next thing I wanted 1:23:51.360 --> 1:23:56.320 to sort of ask about is, so this is a 1:23:57.640 --> 1:24:02.720 very very long running I guess, sort of strategy and 1:24:02.840 --> 1:24:07.960 campaign of sort of right wing or right wing and 1:24:08.040 --> 1:24:14.320 turf do transition like groups advocating for trans healthcare bands. 1:24:15.320 --> 1:24:17.760 And I wanted to I wanted to talk about some 1:24:17.920 --> 1:24:19.920 of the older campaigns that happened, and I wanted to 1:24:20.040 --> 1:24:23.400 talk about specifically some of the campaigns to influence WPATH. 1:24:24.320 --> 1:24:27.920 Oh boy, right, right, So we should we should start 1:24:28.000 --> 1:24:31.200 by explaining to people what WPATH is, because I think 1:24:31.360 --> 1:24:34.680 unless you're trans you probably don't know. You've probably never 1:24:34.760 --> 1:24:35.639 heard of WPATH. 1:24:37.320 --> 1:24:42.040 It's like World Professional Association for trans Healthcare, I believe, 1:24:42.160 --> 1:24:42.479 is what it. 1:24:42.800 --> 1:24:43.800 Can double check that. 1:24:44.160 --> 1:24:44.360 Yeah. 1:24:44.640 --> 1:24:48.080 Yeah, World Professional Associations for Transvender Health formerly known as 1:24:48.080 --> 1:24:50.960 the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Alliance. 1:24:51.479 --> 1:24:55.080 They published the standard care that is usually used to 1:24:55.240 --> 1:24:59.040 help inform gender firming care for trans people, and they 1:24:59.360 --> 1:25:01.880 have done various versions of. 1:25:02.000 --> 1:25:05.519 This over the course of decades. We are currently on 1:25:06.439 --> 1:25:06.960 version eight. 1:25:07.840 --> 1:25:13.719 Yeah, and historically they've they're a way of administering trans 1:25:13.760 --> 1:25:16.200 healthcare has involved a lot of like gatekeeping and then 1:25:16.240 --> 1:25:19.840 psychological assessments or requiring people to do a real life test, 1:25:19.880 --> 1:25:22.840 which is like making someone live as the gender they're 1:25:22.880 --> 1:25:25.320 transitioning to for like a year before they can actually 1:25:25.360 --> 1:25:29.439 access medical transition. So I guess like social transition, but 1:25:29.479 --> 1:25:31.439 it's like a test to prove whether you're a quote 1:25:31.479 --> 1:25:34.920 unquote real trans person or not. And like things of Yeah, 1:25:34.960 --> 1:25:38.200 things have gotten like somewhat better over time, but there's 1:25:38.200 --> 1:25:43.360 still a lot of medical professionals in and especially like 1:25:43.439 --> 1:25:47.040 therapists in WPATH who like still want to require some 1:25:47.240 --> 1:25:49.760 form of gatekeeping, who basically still don't trust trans people 1:25:50.439 --> 1:25:52.400 to know, you know, who we are and what we 1:25:52.560 --> 1:25:54.599 need and are like okay, but we need to make 1:25:54.600 --> 1:25:56.040 sure they get therapy. We need to make sure we 1:25:56.120 --> 1:25:58.519 do like oh the SYPE tests, what if they regret it? 1:25:59.240 --> 1:26:00.439 And so yeah. 1:26:00.520 --> 1:26:04.919 So I used to be a de transition radical feminist 1:26:05.080 --> 1:26:08.000 back in the day, and I used to know I 1:26:08.080 --> 1:26:12.439 mean I knew Max and Kitty. I was involved in 1:26:12.560 --> 1:26:17.479 that particular group for about like six and a half 1:26:17.560 --> 1:26:21.559 seven years, and I used to have a blog called 1:26:21.960 --> 1:26:25.280 Crash Chaos Cats where I wrote about de transitioning and 1:26:25.439 --> 1:26:28.160 kind of got more more turphy over time. But like 1:26:28.280 --> 1:26:30.720 pretty early into my blog, about like three months or 1:26:30.800 --> 1:26:34.720 so in this gender therapist who worked for the San 1:26:34.720 --> 1:26:37.120 Francisco Department of Health like left a comment on my 1:26:37.200 --> 1:26:39.680 blog and was like, I'm interested in talking to de 1:26:39.800 --> 1:26:42.639 transitioned people because I think there are two Like well, 1:26:43.120 --> 1:26:45.519 she left to comment that she was interested in talking 1:26:45.560 --> 1:26:47.840 to de transition people and you know, talking to me, 1:26:48.080 --> 1:26:50.479 and then like we started emailing back and forth, and 1:26:50.640 --> 1:26:52.960 she opened up pretty quickly and said like there are 1:26:53.040 --> 1:26:55.519 too many f to ms in San Francisco. It was 1:26:55.560 --> 1:26:57.280 like too many f to ms in the San Francisco 1:26:57.360 --> 1:26:59.200 Bay Area, there are too many like you know, Quoe 1:26:59.240 --> 1:27:05.439 unquote female PEP transitioning. I know, it's like, oh no, 1:27:05.600 --> 1:27:09.280 it's like, oh wow, there's It's like it couldn't possibly 1:27:09.400 --> 1:27:11.280 be that people are just coming to one of the 1:27:11.320 --> 1:27:14.519 most trans friendly areas in the country to transition because 1:27:14.560 --> 1:27:16.479 they think they'll have an easier time there. 1:27:16.640 --> 1:27:18.479 No, there's got to be too many people. 1:27:18.680 --> 1:27:21.240 I mean, I think somewhere early in the conversation she 1:27:21.360 --> 1:27:24.560 brought up YouTube influencing people towards transitioning. 1:27:24.800 --> 1:27:26.599 She thought there was like, you know, pressure to transition 1:27:26.680 --> 1:27:27.559 in the trans community. 1:27:28.040 --> 1:27:30.720 So anyways, shit all this stuff, something about like you know, oh, 1:27:30.800 --> 1:27:33.679 people are treating this social problem as a medical problem. 1:27:34.600 --> 1:27:38.519 And I you know, immediately kind of turned around and 1:27:38.560 --> 1:27:43.000 started talking with this other detrans radical feminist that I knew, 1:27:43.240 --> 1:27:46.560 divoras Ahab, and we started scheming like, Okay, this like 1:27:46.680 --> 1:27:49.240 gender therapist who works for the San Francisco Department of 1:27:49.320 --> 1:27:51.840 Health like thinks there's too many people transitioning. How do 1:27:51.920 --> 1:27:55.439 we exploit this, Like how can we like use this 1:27:55.520 --> 1:27:57.639 as an opportunity to like cut down on the number 1:27:57.680 --> 1:27:58.920 of like people transitioning. 1:27:59.320 --> 1:28:02.320 It wasn't just the connection to the Department of Health. Yeah, 1:28:02.360 --> 1:28:03.360 also the w PATH. 1:28:03.280 --> 1:28:04.880 Well that that we found out about that I was 1:28:04.880 --> 1:28:06.720 just going to go into that, like eventually, first we 1:28:06.760 --> 1:28:08.840 found out she was working for the Department of Public Health, 1:28:08.880 --> 1:28:10.600 and then we found out that she was in w 1:28:10.840 --> 1:28:13.040 PATH and she actually was like you know, talking to 1:28:13.120 --> 1:28:15.840 the president of w PATH and that she like so 1:28:16.040 --> 1:28:19.120 she made it clear that like she wanted to use 1:28:19.840 --> 1:28:23.240 the stories of de transitioned people to try to get 1:28:23.360 --> 1:28:25.599 more clinicians to be to take a more cautious approach, 1:28:25.640 --> 1:28:27.719 and she also wanted to try to develop psych assessments 1:28:27.760 --> 1:28:31.160 that could supposedly like weed out you know, who the 1:28:31.240 --> 1:28:33.439 real trans people were, who was going to benefit from 1:28:33.479 --> 1:28:36.240 transitioning and who would supposed to go on to regret 1:28:36.320 --> 1:28:37.439 transitioning and d transition. 1:28:37.800 --> 1:28:40.880 The thing is, we didn't actually. 1:28:40.680 --> 1:28:43.040 Believe that you could tell the difference between someone who 1:28:43.040 --> 1:28:46.559 would end up like state transitions because we were TERFs, right, 1:28:46.680 --> 1:28:50.439 we thought everyone could you know, be saved by radical 1:28:50.479 --> 1:28:52.639 feminism like we And we had a bunch of people 1:28:52.840 --> 1:28:55.200 in our group who thought that they were you know, 1:28:55.280 --> 1:28:58.240 quote unquote true transsexuals, who thought they fit the criteria 1:28:58.720 --> 1:29:00.880 of someone who would have a seccess full transition, you know, 1:29:01.000 --> 1:29:04.120 until they you know, decided they actually were suffering from 1:29:04.160 --> 1:29:07.840 internalized misogyny or some other kind of rad fem explanation 1:29:08.160 --> 1:29:11.679 for gender dysphoria. And like the thing is, like Devora 1:29:12.120 --> 1:29:14.000 also lived in the San Francisco Bay area, so you 1:29:14.040 --> 1:29:17.000 actually end up like meeting up with this gender therapist. 1:29:17.360 --> 1:29:20.000 His name was Julie Graham, and was like pretty open 1:29:20.080 --> 1:29:22.920 with her with her anti trans views. I mean, she 1:29:23.040 --> 1:29:25.200 wasn't like completely open with her like intentions like, oh, 1:29:25.240 --> 1:29:26.840 I'm going to use this person to try to like 1:29:27.160 --> 1:29:30.280 work towards ending all transition, but she was. She did 1:29:30.439 --> 1:29:33.240 tell you know, Graham, but she didn't think anyone really 1:29:33.320 --> 1:29:35.680 benefited from it. And she told her that, you know, 1:29:35.960 --> 1:29:39.080 she said she knew people who have been true transsexuals 1:29:39.120 --> 1:29:41.880 who had de transitioned, and said like lots of really 1:29:42.040 --> 1:29:46.040 awful things about like trans women being fetishists and just 1:29:46.240 --> 1:29:50.880 like you know, all this very anti trans stuff. But 1:29:51.000 --> 1:29:52.439 then you know, I say, oh, but I think we 1:29:52.479 --> 1:29:54.200 don't have to agree on everything. I think we can 1:29:54.320 --> 1:29:56.960 like work together, and like, you know, this gender therapist 1:29:57.000 --> 1:30:02.280 fell for it, like somehow like divorcing all this very 1:30:02.400 --> 1:30:04.879 anti trans stuff like making a close she was opposed 1:30:04.920 --> 1:30:09.080 to transition, saying like really nasty, trans misogynistic shit, like 1:30:09.160 --> 1:30:12.760 none of that was like objectionable enough for great not 1:30:12.920 --> 1:30:15.160 to like continue to like work with her, to continue 1:30:15.200 --> 1:30:17.280 to be like, hey, do you want to talk to 1:30:17.360 --> 1:30:19.719 these clinicians about what it is to do transition? 1:30:20.800 --> 1:30:24.200 And you know eventually what happened like that. 1:30:24.320 --> 1:30:28.360 Eventually, this relationship with this gender therapist eventually led to 1:30:28.720 --> 1:30:33.720 a presentation at the first us PATH conference by Carrie Callahan, 1:30:34.280 --> 1:30:36.800 who's like she's kind of an odd figure because she 1:30:36.880 --> 1:30:39.800 never actually identified as like a radical feminist, but she 1:30:39.840 --> 1:30:43.759 spent like years hanging out was like detransitioned radical feminists, 1:30:43.800 --> 1:30:45.960 and she's she's de transitioned, but she's kind of more 1:30:45.960 --> 1:30:50.440 of like a weird liberal who believes in more gatekeeping, 1:30:50.920 --> 1:30:54.640 but she's kind of handy, like we like like she 1:30:55.080 --> 1:30:57.880 did this presentation at us PATH and she showed some 1:30:58.080 --> 1:31:02.519 videos of trans turfs, including myself, like I made one 1:31:02.560 --> 1:31:05.559 of I made a short video, and Max Robinson also 1:31:05.960 --> 1:31:09.600 made one of those videos, and Carrie Stella was the 1:31:09.680 --> 1:31:12.000 third person, and Carry Stella she did like she was 1:31:12.040 --> 1:31:14.639 another like d trans tumbler turf who did this survey. 1:31:15.520 --> 1:31:18.120 It still gets like it was a it was a 1:31:18.200 --> 1:31:23.360 survey monkey survey. It's gets cited by like anti trans 1:31:23.400 --> 1:31:27.920 researchers about de transition yeap. Which anyways, so we so 1:31:28.120 --> 1:31:30.919 there were three of us who made these short videos, 1:31:31.439 --> 1:31:34.719 both me and Max Robinson by that point had gone 1:31:34.840 --> 1:31:38.960 like we had hooked up with these weird turfs who 1:31:39.000 --> 1:31:42.840 were Dianic witches and taken part in these kind of 1:31:42.960 --> 1:31:48.960 weird neopagan x trans reclaiming femaleness rituals. We had been 1:31:49.000 --> 1:31:52.920 through this kind of like religious neo pagan like you know, 1:31:53.040 --> 1:31:58.120 conversion practice rituals, which of course that wasn't something that 1:31:58.160 --> 1:32:00.679 the USP like those are the people, you know, dos 1:32:00.800 --> 1:32:04.360 Path knew that, but we hit that. We just you know, 1:32:04.479 --> 1:32:06.760 I talked about how I thought I had transition due 1:32:06.760 --> 1:32:10.200 to like internalized misogyny and trauma on all that. So 1:32:10.280 --> 1:32:12.880 I was sort of like spreading a more like kind 1:32:12.920 --> 1:32:17.720 of watered down terf ideology to the folks over at 1:32:18.000 --> 1:32:18.599 us Path. 1:32:19.640 --> 1:32:22.320 This is this is kind of an intentional strategy if 1:32:22.360 --> 1:32:25.200 you think about it, because I want to I want 1:32:25.240 --> 1:32:30.320 to point out something from the emails about how that 1:32:30.720 --> 1:32:36.240 presentation was made and then given where Carrie Callahan noted 1:32:36.320 --> 1:32:40.519 that her slides were quote unquote decidedly on radical. 1:32:40.840 --> 1:32:44.000 She was trying to talk to therapists as a therapist. 1:32:45.240 --> 1:32:47.920 What that basically meant was she was taking away a 1:32:48.040 --> 1:32:53.000 lot of the more objectionable elements, the things that would 1:32:53.120 --> 1:32:58.040 identify folks like Kai and her previously scrambled state as 1:32:58.200 --> 1:33:00.880 a turf and being completely oppos transition and stuff like that, 1:33:01.200 --> 1:33:04.160 and then putting on you know, kind of suiting them 1:33:04.240 --> 1:33:06.599 up right, like you know, getting getting them in their 1:33:06.720 --> 1:33:09.439 in their nice clothes, and then presenting them to a 1:33:10.080 --> 1:33:12.919 professional audience who is then able to take that information 1:33:13.400 --> 1:33:16.280 and sort of absorb it into their general thinking and 1:33:16.360 --> 1:33:18.720 then how that's going to play out in terms of 1:33:19.280 --> 1:33:23.559 their changes or implementations of care in the long term. 1:33:24.520 --> 1:33:26.599 Yeah, and that's something that like, I think there's something 1:33:26.640 --> 1:33:31.439 that's pretty common with like a d D trends, uh, 1:33:31.800 --> 1:33:35.800 like anti transactivists across the spectrum, Like a lot of 1:33:36.960 --> 1:33:38.920 people like Cloe Cold, there's a lot of the sort 1:33:38.960 --> 1:33:43.240 of like just hardline right wingers who didn't talk about 1:33:43.320 --> 1:33:46.160 stuff like like like some of these people de transition 1:33:46.400 --> 1:33:48.840 because like the thing that they're saying now is the 1:33:48.880 --> 1:33:51.000 de transition because they got a vision from God, right, 1:33:51.040 --> 1:33:54.280 and they don't start with that because I think, right, 1:33:54.479 --> 1:33:56.000 I mean, I I think I think there should be 1:33:56.040 --> 1:33:58.000 more skepticism of people who are like I got a 1:33:58.120 --> 1:34:01.920 vision from the Christian God or like the Abrahamic God 1:34:02.560 --> 1:34:04.280 that told me a t transition. I think thered be 1:34:04.320 --> 1:34:06.080 borced get the system of that. But that's not something 1:34:06.200 --> 1:34:08.880 that like, I don't know if if you if you 1:34:09.000 --> 1:34:12.200 walk into like W Path and you tell them I 1:34:12.400 --> 1:34:14.760 was given to vision from God, They're going to be like, 1:34:15.160 --> 1:34:18.120 what whereas this kind of stuff? 1:34:18.200 --> 1:34:18.320 Right? 1:34:18.439 --> 1:34:21.040 Like, you know, but the Wpath people like and this 1:34:21.120 --> 1:34:22.840 is something that's kind of complicated about this because I 1:34:22.920 --> 1:34:25.400 think there's I think there's a lot of people who 1:34:25.520 --> 1:34:28.400 see W Path as one of the sort of like 1:34:28.880 --> 1:34:31.760 as one of the organizations that's there to protect trans 1:34:31.800 --> 1:34:33.559 people and that are sort of allies in this sort 1:34:33.560 --> 1:34:37.280 of in this battle against anti trands stuff. And it's 1:34:37.360 --> 1:34:39.880 true to a certain extent, but they're also like, this 1:34:40.040 --> 1:34:44.680 is an organization composed of a bunch of CIS doctors, right, 1:34:45.600 --> 1:34:47.440 who can be influenced and manipulated. 1:34:47.600 --> 1:34:52.800 And there's there's trans members as well, there's a few, 1:34:54.200 --> 1:34:55.400 but it also is less power. 1:34:55.520 --> 1:34:57.880 Well, it also seems like the trans people who do 1:34:58.400 --> 1:35:01.840 end up like you know, positioned at wpath like also 1:35:02.000 --> 1:35:04.960 tend to be like end up believing in gatekeeping and 1:35:05.280 --> 1:35:08.160 restrictions that kind of like internalize the general mindset and 1:35:08.280 --> 1:35:10.120 so so it's kind of like their tokens, right. It's 1:35:10.160 --> 1:35:13.720 kind of handy for like CIS medical professionals who want 1:35:13.800 --> 1:35:17.280 to like control trans people to have some trans people 1:35:18.280 --> 1:35:21.840 as like figureheads, you know, expressing those views because they're like, oh, well, 1:35:21.880 --> 1:35:24.879 you know, look this person's saying it and they're trans, 1:35:25.080 --> 1:35:30.720 so like yeah, I mean, I mean, like yeah, at 1:35:30.760 --> 1:35:34.280 the same like that the first US Path, I mean, 1:35:34.360 --> 1:35:37.080 just to kind of show how far things still need 1:35:37.200 --> 1:35:40.160 to come, you know, the same US Path where Carrie 1:35:40.200 --> 1:35:44.200 did her de transition presentation. Ken Zucker was there and 1:35:44.439 --> 1:35:46.720 he got he got protested, I mean like there was 1:35:46.760 --> 1:35:49.519 a protest against him, and I did. I believe they 1:35:49.560 --> 1:35:53.240 ended up like canceling at least like one of his presentations. 1:35:53.280 --> 1:35:56.040 But yeah, so ken Zucker kind of the notorious like 1:35:56.160 --> 1:35:59.760 conversion therapist to focus primarily on on trans use like 1:36:00.160 --> 1:36:05.600 clinic in Canada, you know people I mean and like 1:36:05.720 --> 1:36:08.360 going after both like trans youth and gender non conforming youth. 1:36:08.400 --> 1:36:10.479 They tried to like you know, prevent kids from growing 1:36:10.560 --> 1:36:12.640 up trans, but they also tried to make you know, 1:36:13.160 --> 1:36:16.200 non conforming youth like more gender conforming as well, with 1:36:16.320 --> 1:36:19.040 the justification, Oh well, it's easier to change individual than 1:36:19.080 --> 1:36:24.840 to like make society less bigoted. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, 1:36:24.840 --> 1:36:26.960 but he was the type of people, like he was 1:36:27.000 --> 1:36:28.680 one of the medical professionals that was like, you know, 1:36:28.920 --> 1:36:32.120 helping to create like the standards of care for for 1:36:32.240 --> 1:36:34.560 trans youth for decades, and it took a lot of 1:36:34.640 --> 1:36:35.040 work to. 1:36:36.600 --> 1:36:37.160 To change that. 1:36:37.320 --> 1:36:39.920 And like, yeah, he was still given a platform by 1:36:40.160 --> 1:36:42.160 w Path in like twenty seventeen. 1:36:42.960 --> 1:36:43.880 That's not that long ago. 1:36:45.000 --> 1:36:48.640 Yeah, And that's I don't know, it's this is one 1:36:48.680 --> 1:36:58.360 of these things where like the history of cist doctors 1:36:58.600 --> 1:37:03.760 treating trans people is really really bleak in ways that 1:37:03.960 --> 1:37:08.360 don't get talked about. And the reason, like one of 1:37:08.400 --> 1:37:10.320 the reasons they don't get talked about from people who 1:37:10.640 --> 1:37:14.519 know about it is that like it's fucking bad, Like 1:37:14.760 --> 1:37:17.599 it's a lot it's it's a lot of people getting raped. 1:37:17.840 --> 1:37:20.560 It's like a lot of like I mean, and like 1:37:20.640 --> 1:37:22.680 when we talked about sort of like gatekeeping for health care, 1:37:22.800 --> 1:37:25.120 Like that was the like one of the original things 1:37:25.960 --> 1:37:27.439 was like, you know, one of the things that would 1:37:27.439 --> 1:37:31.080 happen very very commonly was you know, it's like okay, 1:37:31.200 --> 1:37:33.720 like if you if you want to get healthcare, like 1:37:33.760 --> 1:37:35.160 you have to let me rape you like that. That's 1:37:35.200 --> 1:37:37.880 the thing that happened all the fucking time. And this 1:37:38.080 --> 1:37:40.400 is the and that's not something that's you know, extremely 1:37:40.479 --> 1:37:42.080 long ago, right, And you can you can look at 1:37:42.160 --> 1:37:44.759 like modern w path and be like, well, it's obviously 1:37:44.920 --> 1:37:47.000 like yes, it has come a long way from that shit, 1:37:47.520 --> 1:37:50.000 but simultaneously, yeah, like I don't know, that's that's something 1:37:50.040 --> 1:37:52.120 that you know, like there are living people who fucking 1:37:52.200 --> 1:37:57.280 experience that, right, and you know, and and when when 1:37:57.280 --> 1:38:01.040 you when you look at why these kinds of like 1:38:01.160 --> 1:38:04.080 d trans campaigns, why why these just like like these 1:38:04.120 --> 1:38:07.800 the sort of d trans anti transactivists have been so 1:38:07.880 --> 1:38:12.160 successful in targeting this it's like, well, you know, it's 1:38:12.240 --> 1:38:14.320 it's it's it's I think I think it's a kind 1:38:14.360 --> 1:38:17.519 of similar thing to like, oh wow, I wonder why 1:38:17.720 --> 1:38:20.680 like the third KKK was successful in this South And 1:38:20.720 --> 1:38:24.680 it's like hmm hmm. Maybe there are things happening. I 1:38:24.680 --> 1:38:27.360 mean that that is slightly unfair as being a bit 1:38:27.400 --> 1:38:30.320 unfair to them. But you know, there's there's still a 1:38:30.479 --> 1:38:34.720 lot of these sentiments that there's a lot of sort 1:38:34.720 --> 1:38:36.680 of like transphobic sentiments that are just kind of like 1:38:37.479 --> 1:38:39.800 buried beneath the surface. And I think a lot of 1:38:39.880 --> 1:38:43.280 what we've been seeing over the past you know, like 1:38:44.720 --> 1:38:48.280 like eight ish years, what is time hold on? Is 1:38:48.320 --> 1:38:51.880 that God, Okay, I've broken my own rule about not 1:38:52.000 --> 1:38:55.160 trying to do bath life on air. People don't figure 1:38:55.160 --> 1:38:58.120 out that I can't do subtract. But you know, that's 1:38:58.160 --> 1:38:59.479 that's a lot of what's the topic of the last 1:38:59.520 --> 1:39:03.280 like eight years is that people figured out that there's 1:39:03.560 --> 1:39:05.960 still a lot of sort of lingering anti transceniment, and 1:39:06.000 --> 1:39:08.679 they figured out where you can target it in ways 1:39:08.720 --> 1:39:11.280 that are extremely effective. We need to go to ads 1:39:11.520 --> 1:39:25.639 were back in a second with less capitalism, and we're 1:39:25.680 --> 1:39:27.879 back Oh yeah. 1:39:27.880 --> 1:39:31.080 Oh yeah, I mean like yeah, I mean I feel 1:39:31.120 --> 1:39:34.880 like like in terms of like medical professionals who want 1:39:34.920 --> 1:39:37.320 a gatekeeper, what like they've they've been using you know, 1:39:37.400 --> 1:39:40.160 de transition and transition regret as like an excuse for 1:39:40.280 --> 1:39:44.719 controlling people for basically since the beginning of trans healthcare. 1:39:45.040 --> 1:39:48.240 I mean not like like you know that gender therapist, 1:39:48.400 --> 1:39:50.400 she like Graham, she went looking for us. She like 1:39:50.520 --> 1:39:54.200 went looking for for de trans people to use. She's like, Okay, 1:39:54.280 --> 1:39:56.240 this is how I'm going to like cut down on 1:39:56.280 --> 1:39:58.360 the number of people transitioning. I'm going to find some 1:39:58.560 --> 1:40:02.080 like de transitioned women and then use their experiences. And 1:40:02.280 --> 1:40:04.680 you know that's what she tried to do. And like 1:40:04.840 --> 1:40:07.280 and I see this happening with other like clinicians too, 1:40:07.400 --> 1:40:10.400 like kind of going back to Ohio Scott Liebowitz, who 1:40:10.960 --> 1:40:16.280 runs he's a therapist who runs the Thrive Clinic in Ohio. 1:40:16.920 --> 1:40:20.760 And he's another one who has used like detransition to 1:40:21.080 --> 1:40:25.800 justify like more psych assessments. And I mean he was 1:40:25.840 --> 1:40:31.439 actually one of the therapists featured in one of the 1:40:31.479 --> 1:40:35.040 New York Times articles that everyone a lot of trans 1:40:35.080 --> 1:40:38.680 people got mad at, the one by Emily Baislon. Was 1:40:38.720 --> 1:40:41.559 it like I forget what it's called selfpies the general 1:40:41.600 --> 1:40:43.920 for gender therapy, where he's like kind of cast is 1:40:43.960 --> 1:40:47.519 this like this poor moderate position who's caught between the 1:40:47.640 --> 1:40:50.760 religious right that wants to ban all trans healthcare and 1:40:50.880 --> 1:40:54.600 these wacky transactivists who just want to let everyone transition. 1:40:55.120 --> 1:40:58.160 It's like he's just trying to find this nuanced approach 1:40:58.280 --> 1:41:02.560 and make sure that like teenagers don't transition and regret it. 1:41:02.960 --> 1:41:05.920 And you know, yeah, you know he was like, I mean, 1:41:06.760 --> 1:41:10.320 like he was trying to stop the healthcare bands in 1:41:10.600 --> 1:41:12.920 Ohio by pointing out, like, oh look, you know we're 1:41:13.880 --> 1:41:17.960 we do comprehensive care. You know, most most youth don't 1:41:18.000 --> 1:41:24.000 go on to medically transition. Like like Carrie Callahan was 1:41:24.040 --> 1:41:27.600 also one of the you know, she and her testimony 1:41:27.680 --> 1:41:29.320 and in some op ed pieces that she wrote, she 1:41:29.439 --> 1:41:34.080 was like praising his approach, calling it conscious cautious. You know, 1:41:34.160 --> 1:41:37.479 people who want to like restrict care implement more gatekeeping 1:41:37.560 --> 1:41:40.640 will use like de transition stories to justify that. And 1:41:40.680 --> 1:41:43.800 then of course, like you know, the religious right, who 1:41:43.840 --> 1:41:47.840 wants to completely wipe out all transition healthcare will also 1:41:47.960 --> 1:41:50.760 use like D transition stories as well. They'll have their 1:41:50.800 --> 1:41:53.200 set of D transition people that they they bring out, 1:41:53.360 --> 1:41:55.799 like Chloe Coole to testify for the bands. 1:41:56.800 --> 1:41:57.000 Yeah. 1:41:57.080 --> 1:42:02.080 Leibowitz was also one of the colely for the adolescent 1:42:02.240 --> 1:42:05.479 chapter in the Standards of Care eight from w Path. 1:42:06.120 --> 1:42:08.639 This was also partially reported on in the Basilon piece 1:42:08.680 --> 1:42:11.679 since they were given exclusive access to the draft before 1:42:11.760 --> 1:42:16.200 the actual final product was officially published. And so this 1:42:16.520 --> 1:42:21.599 particular chapter, especially compared to most of the other ones, 1:42:21.760 --> 1:42:23.960 was it was basically a dumpster fire. Like it was 1:42:24.040 --> 1:42:27.920 a massive rollback in terms of accurate information. And part 1:42:27.960 --> 1:42:31.000 of this was actually captured by a white paper that 1:42:31.160 --> 1:42:33.960 was written by Kelly Winter's a trans woman. 1:42:34.200 --> 1:42:35.720 You know, she's got a PhD and everything like that. 1:42:35.800 --> 1:42:37.280 She's been paying attention to this stuff for a really 1:42:37.360 --> 1:42:39.720 long time, has been working in aspects of w path 1:42:39.760 --> 1:42:43.640 and trying to like, you know, kind of help reshape 1:42:43.760 --> 1:42:46.280 some of the transphobia that's been happening. 1:42:46.360 --> 1:42:48.559 Yeah, I mean she's been finding back against like how 1:42:48.600 --> 1:42:52.840 trans people are pathologized and you know, against paternalistic yeah 1:42:52.920 --> 1:42:54.720 healthcare for a very long time now. 1:42:54.920 --> 1:42:55.120 Yeah. 1:42:55.240 --> 1:42:59.719 So she ended up writing a white paper about Version, 1:43:00.680 --> 1:43:05.600 with a significant section focusing on the adolescent chapter and 1:43:05.800 --> 1:43:10.840 some of the weird like pseudoscience laundering that ended up 1:43:10.880 --> 1:43:14.080 happening because that chapter not only did it include like 1:43:14.680 --> 1:43:17.400 you know, lip service to things like quote unquote rapid 1:43:17.400 --> 1:43:20.280 onset gender dysphoria, which is a this is a bunk 1:43:20.520 --> 1:43:23.720 pseudodiagnosis that was invented by Lisa Littman after surveying a 1:43:23.760 --> 1:43:27.000 bunch of anti transparents. But then within that chapter you 1:43:27.200 --> 1:43:31.960 also see the laundering of specific studies that are focused 1:43:32.040 --> 1:43:40.040 on predominantly de transitioned women, predominantly gender critical or radical feminists. 1:43:40.640 --> 1:43:44.320 These two papers were Litman twenty twenty one, which surveyed 1:43:44.439 --> 1:43:48.120 a lot of the kind of the old D trans 1:43:48.280 --> 1:43:51.160 turf groups that we had been connected with right around 1:43:51.200 --> 1:43:54.960 twenty seventeen or so, so this was before the ROGD 1:43:55.120 --> 1:43:58.240 paper was published in twenty eighteen. But then there was 1:43:58.320 --> 1:44:02.400 also let's say, there's the Vanderbush study, which I believe 1:44:02.479 --> 1:44:06.439 that was published in like what twenty I don't remember 1:44:06.479 --> 1:44:08.880 what year that was published in the Vanderbush study, Now, 1:44:09.120 --> 1:44:12.280 this study was done by Eli vander Bush, who is 1:44:13.040 --> 1:44:19.320 basically post trans half of a gender critical detransition project, 1:44:19.720 --> 1:44:23.320 and it had a very similar kind of like recruitment 1:44:23.400 --> 1:44:27.280 strategy sometimes an overlapping recruitment pool. But the difference is 1:44:27.320 --> 1:44:30.400 that this happened after the rog D paper dropped. 1:44:30.720 --> 1:44:33.120 RGD is that's wrap it on SUT gender dysphoria, which 1:44:33.160 --> 1:44:35.120 is distinct correct, Yeah, to be like all the kids 1:44:35.160 --> 1:44:37.800 are suddenly transitioning, is like no, this is yes, yeah, 1:44:37.840 --> 1:44:39.120 but that's what that is. 1:44:40.560 --> 1:44:40.720 Yep. 1:44:40.920 --> 1:44:44.400 When that paper dropped, a shift in some of the 1:44:44.600 --> 1:44:48.120 narratives from people who are coming out as de transitioned 1:44:48.280 --> 1:44:51.400 was also starting to be observed. More people were starting 1:44:51.479 --> 1:44:54.640 to call themselves as having experienced ROGD. 1:44:54.840 --> 1:44:57.519 This is where the peak Resilience project came from. 1:44:58.320 --> 1:45:00.759 And so as a result, like this BANDI Bush study 1:45:00.880 --> 1:45:03.839 was also pulling in aspects of that kind of narrative 1:45:03.920 --> 1:45:07.200 as well. Right, and you know this, none of this 1:45:07.320 --> 1:45:10.760 actually makes sense. These are wildly biased sample pools. It's 1:45:10.800 --> 1:45:15.280 not going to be generalizable to basically any population. It's 1:45:15.680 --> 1:45:20.920 only focused on like a very particular subset of people 1:45:21.040 --> 1:45:23.640 who end up detransitioning and then develop some kind of 1:45:23.840 --> 1:45:27.439 like political belief it's connected to it, right, And then 1:45:27.960 --> 1:45:33.000 it's being used as legitimate data as part of standards 1:45:33.040 --> 1:45:37.080 of care that is supposed to be like yeah, yes, 1:45:37.320 --> 1:45:39.320 it's just it's particular absolus. 1:45:39.320 --> 1:45:42.000 Well, it is ridiculous, But I don't feel like like 1:45:42.080 --> 1:45:44.760 I feel like the medical professionals who want more gatekeeping, 1:45:44.840 --> 1:45:47.800 like they just need some de transitioned people to justify it. 1:45:48.040 --> 1:45:50.800 They don't really care if like the people ended up 1:45:50.840 --> 1:45:55.560 de transitioning because they like found God or radical feminism 1:45:55.880 --> 1:45:59.840 or like or you know, our old group, a lot 1:45:59.840 --> 1:46:01.519 of de transmit. I think I already mentioned this before, 1:46:01.640 --> 1:46:02.960 Like a lot of us like talked about how like 1:46:03.000 --> 1:46:05.559 we had the same kind of dysphoria than any other 1:46:05.640 --> 1:46:08.479 transperson had and we're. 1:46:08.320 --> 1:46:10.080 Still fighting it off. That was a thing too. 1:46:10.200 --> 1:46:13.000 Most of the people I knew still had gender dysphoria 1:46:13.640 --> 1:46:16.120 and we're just finding like quote unquote alternative ways to 1:46:16.240 --> 1:46:18.559 cope with it. And it's just like, I don't I mean, 1:46:18.760 --> 1:46:20.840 a lot of people were trying to like talk themselves 1:46:20.920 --> 1:46:26.479 out of like transitioning again. So I don't think the 1:46:26.560 --> 1:46:29.040 issue here is like, oh, transition didn't work for these people. 1:46:29.120 --> 1:46:31.280 It's more like they internalized the idea that no one 1:46:31.280 --> 1:46:37.160 should transition. But again, like people don't. It's like people don't, Yeah, 1:46:37.200 --> 1:46:40.120 they only care about using D transition in order to 1:46:40.720 --> 1:46:43.240 reduce the number of trans people or prevent transition. They 1:46:43.280 --> 1:46:46.960 don't care about transition or d transition that you know 1:46:47.080 --> 1:46:51.640 results from transphobia either internalizing it, yeah, internalizing it an 1:46:51.640 --> 1:46:54.640 anti trans ideology, or you know, not being able to 1:46:55.479 --> 1:47:01.080 access transition because of living in a transphoba, coming from 1:47:01.120 --> 1:47:03.439 a transphobic family, you know, having to go into the 1:47:03.479 --> 1:47:05.519 closet to find a job, that kind of stuff. Like 1:47:06.360 --> 1:47:08.599 it's never about like yeah, it's never about preventing due 1:47:08.600 --> 1:47:12.759 transition that results from from transphobia. It's just about finding 1:47:12.840 --> 1:47:16.040 excuse to control us and our access to healthcare. There's 1:47:16.080 --> 1:47:19.840 this perverse incentive structure here too, because you know, these 1:47:20.000 --> 1:47:24.640 doctors are trying to find you know, they're trying to 1:47:24.720 --> 1:47:26.240 find something that gives. 1:47:26.080 --> 1:47:29.160 Them more ability to do gatekeeping. So it's it's it's 1:47:29.200 --> 1:47:31.120 in their interest to in order to in order to 1:47:31.200 --> 1:47:34.960 preserve and increase their own power, to find this kind 1:47:35.000 --> 1:47:37.679 of stuff, which means that they're not actually doing their job. 1:47:38.160 --> 1:47:42.160 They're going out and trying to find ways to like 1:47:42.200 --> 1:47:46.440 they're trying to find, you know, whatever whatever like absolutely 1:47:46.520 --> 1:47:50.160 dog shit studies or like just stuff that like probably 1:47:50.200 --> 1:47:53.519 should be considered medical malpractice. Like they don't really care 1:47:53.600 --> 1:47:55.800 because again it's it's it's it's just this like loop 1:47:55.840 --> 1:47:57.599 because that's the thing that they need. So they'll they'll 1:47:57.680 --> 1:48:01.880 find whatever, like bank pseudo scientists just like cranking the 1:48:01.920 --> 1:48:03.040 stuff out and they'll use. 1:48:02.960 --> 1:48:05.840 It, yeah, I mean, and also I mean I also 1:48:05.880 --> 1:48:07.360 feel like this is one of the reasons why there 1:48:07.400 --> 1:48:11.160 aren't more resources for people who end up de transitioning too, 1:48:11.320 --> 1:48:12.720 because they want to be able to use as a 1:48:12.760 --> 1:48:15.800 scarce scare story, right because like really, I mean, like okay, 1:48:15.960 --> 1:48:18.000 like you know, I do transitioned, and like it was 1:48:18.240 --> 1:48:21.799 hard because there weren't as much like resources and support 1:48:21.880 --> 1:48:23.839 out there. And I mean a lot of the supports 1:48:23.840 --> 1:48:26.880 I did find were crappy because they were coming from TERFs. 1:48:27.520 --> 1:48:29.800 But it's like it's really just kind of like transitioning 1:48:29.880 --> 1:48:32.680 again in a lot of ways. So it's like, well, 1:48:32.720 --> 1:48:35.840 if you can create resources to make transitioning easier, you 1:48:35.920 --> 1:48:38.760 could definitely create a lot of similar resources to make 1:48:38.840 --> 1:48:40.439 do transitioning easier. 1:48:40.479 --> 1:48:41.400 But that's not there. 1:48:42.040 --> 1:48:43.840 And I feel like like one of the reasons that 1:48:44.000 --> 1:48:46.120 is not there is because if like if it's easy 1:48:46.200 --> 1:48:48.560 for someone to do transition, get what they need to 1:48:48.640 --> 1:48:51.040 have a good life, and just move on, then it's 1:48:51.080 --> 1:48:53.320 hard to use those stories. Like you'll have less people 1:48:53.360 --> 1:48:55.479 who want to, like you know who you can kind 1:48:55.520 --> 1:48:58.360 of like, uh, you know, indoctrinate into these anti trans 1:48:58.439 --> 1:49:00.840 ideologies and then use them, you know, as part of 1:49:00.840 --> 1:49:03.040 the anti trans movement, but also just like I mean, 1:49:03.080 --> 1:49:05.759 if it's not scary anymore, if you just feel like, okay, 1:49:06.040 --> 1:49:08.320 like this is just an issue of like making people 1:49:08.520 --> 1:49:10.519 making sure people get the supports they need so they 1:49:10.520 --> 1:49:12.280 can just get on with their lives, Like you just 1:49:12.360 --> 1:49:14.519 treat it as a practical problem that needs to be 1:49:14.640 --> 1:49:17.240 solved instead of using it to feed a trans panic. 1:49:17.680 --> 1:49:21.280 Like yeah, it's just like the the there's actually like 1:49:21.439 --> 1:49:24.880 less reasons for gatekeeping. I mean, I feel like like 1:49:25.080 --> 1:49:27.320 creating like basically you're kind of like creating a safety 1:49:27.439 --> 1:49:29.920 net for in case, like you know, in case something 1:49:30.120 --> 1:49:34.040 unexpected or negative happens. So you're like, okay, well, if 1:49:34.080 --> 1:49:36.920 you transition and things you end up changing your mind 1:49:37.040 --> 1:49:39.679 or things don't work out the way you think they would, 1:49:40.080 --> 1:49:42.680 here's all these supports you can turn to. So I 1:49:42.760 --> 1:49:45.519 feel like that's kind of a better long term thing 1:49:45.600 --> 1:49:48.040 to work for It is, like, okay, like make sure 1:49:48.120 --> 1:49:50.920 there are supports for people no matter how their transition 1:49:51.080 --> 1:49:54.960 turns out, Like if then including you know, de transitioning, 1:49:55.080 --> 1:49:58.280 or if people like you know, face health complications, like 1:49:58.680 --> 1:50:00.760 make sure that there's like support some place for that. 1:50:00.880 --> 1:50:03.040 Don't use that as an excuse for gatekeeping. 1:50:03.680 --> 1:50:07.200 Yeah, that's unfortunately one that I know all too well 1:50:07.240 --> 1:50:08.080 the consequences of. 1:50:12.000 --> 1:50:14.880 Yeah, and I think I think also the everything that's 1:50:14.920 --> 1:50:21.360 going on is there's just like all of these groups 1:50:21.920 --> 1:50:25.680 see both trans people and people do transitions as just 1:50:26.280 --> 1:50:33.799 not like like they're you know, they're they're they're violating 1:50:33.880 --> 1:50:37.240 the content categorical comperative in the sense that they're not 1:50:37.360 --> 1:50:40.200 treating people as actual humans or treating them as objects 1:50:40.280 --> 1:50:43.680 or tools. Yes, and once you do, when you do that, right, 1:50:43.840 --> 1:50:46.559 like everything suddenly, you know, like who cares what happens 1:50:46.560 --> 1:50:48.400 to these people afterwards because you don't think of them 1:50:48.400 --> 1:50:50.599 as people. You think of them as just a thing 1:50:50.760 --> 1:50:52.280 that you're using to do another thing. 1:50:53.400 --> 1:50:55.599 Mm hm oh yeah. Absolutely. 1:50:56.200 --> 1:50:59.160 The unfortunate thing is that unfort like this can also 1:50:59.400 --> 1:51:02.599 happen within the community as well. When they are trying 1:51:02.640 --> 1:51:05.040 to advocate for certain kinds of things, people will end 1:51:05.120 --> 1:51:07.760 up using each other, oh yeah, as tools in order 1:51:07.880 --> 1:51:09.920 to meet their own personal goals. 1:51:10.560 --> 1:51:13.880 Speaking of goals, make it your goal to buy these 1:51:14.000 --> 1:51:28.040 products and services. Zh No, we're back. 1:51:29.160 --> 1:51:32.240 So let's go back a little bit to about like 1:51:32.439 --> 1:51:36.040 twenty nineteen. Some of the bills are starting to go out. 1:51:36.080 --> 1:51:38.160 We had the test balloon build that was happening in 1:51:38.240 --> 1:51:42.000 South Dakota that eventually turned into twenty twenty. Right in 1:51:42.120 --> 1:51:47.479 this timeframe, an organizing call went out on the Well, 1:51:48.640 --> 1:51:52.000 the site previously known as Twitter by Kerry Callahan that 1:51:52.160 --> 1:51:56.599 was looking for people that wanted to advocate for better 1:51:56.720 --> 1:52:01.960 healthcare outcomes for trans and d trans people. Right during 1:52:02.040 --> 1:52:04.880 that time frame, I had been starting. 1:52:04.640 --> 1:52:06.840 To go off of my hormones. 1:52:06.960 --> 1:52:09.400 I started going off of them a few months prior 1:52:09.479 --> 1:52:13.240 to that point, and in that time frame, I started 1:52:13.360 --> 1:52:20.200 experiencing certain types of what seemed like progressive vision loss 1:52:20.600 --> 1:52:27.000 right my brain I sometimes have a tendency to panic, 1:52:27.120 --> 1:52:30.880 I guess, especially when it comes to things like health anxiety. 1:52:31.040 --> 1:52:37.800 My brain started to make the internal connection, did going 1:52:37.960 --> 1:52:41.360 off of my hormones cause my vision to change? 1:52:41.560 --> 1:52:41.680 Right? 1:52:42.360 --> 1:52:45.560 And unfortunately, as I started to talk about this online 1:52:45.640 --> 1:52:48.240 and the likes, I was getting a lot of encouragement 1:52:48.360 --> 1:52:53.720 from other folks, usually like you know, gender critical, anti transparents, 1:52:53.800 --> 1:52:58.680 that kind of thing, that yes, absolutely like the hormones 1:52:58.680 --> 1:53:01.680 were causing me to have vision loss right and it 1:53:01.840 --> 1:53:04.559 was really impacting my ability to function in my daily 1:53:04.640 --> 1:53:07.080 life right but another part of me, at the same 1:53:07.200 --> 1:53:10.680 time as all of this was starting to feel like 1:53:12.000 --> 1:53:14.479 I was starting to feel aspects of regret and anger, 1:53:15.200 --> 1:53:18.320 which made me want to do something. This is a 1:53:18.439 --> 1:53:21.200 very common narrative, right, It made me want to do 1:53:21.400 --> 1:53:23.880 something so that other people would not end up in 1:53:23.960 --> 1:53:26.240 the situation that I was in. And so I answered 1:53:26.280 --> 1:53:29.760 this call. Probably not the best of decisions that I 1:53:29.800 --> 1:53:31.720 could have made for myself, but I decided. 1:53:31.439 --> 1:53:32.280 To go ahead and do so. 1:53:33.080 --> 1:53:36.880 Answered Kerrie Calhoun's call. Yes, Yes, I decided to go 1:53:36.960 --> 1:53:40.160 ahead and say, yes, I will. I will connect in 1:53:40.240 --> 1:53:42.000 with this. I would like to be a part of it. 1:53:42.400 --> 1:53:44.680 I had to apparently apologize for talking to the wrong 1:53:44.800 --> 1:53:47.640 clinician in public first. 1:53:47.840 --> 1:53:47.920 But. 1:53:49.400 --> 1:53:52.080 No, you had to apologize for talking to Jack Turbin 1:53:52.320 --> 1:53:55.600 because he was too affirming and she was mad that 1:53:55.760 --> 1:53:59.360 you would speak to him because I was too willing to. 1:54:00.960 --> 1:54:01.200 Kids. 1:54:01.560 --> 1:54:04.760 Yes, yes, because he prescribed puberty blockers. I was talking 1:54:04.840 --> 1:54:06.799 to the wrong clinician and therefore this was not allowed. 1:54:06.880 --> 1:54:13.040 But anyway, so eventually the actual like organizing committee starts 1:54:13.120 --> 1:54:18.200 with four people. So it was me Carrie Corina Cone, 1:54:18.240 --> 1:54:21.320 who was later testifying in favor of some of these bills, 1:54:22.400 --> 1:54:24.880 and then Grace Leedinsky Smith. There were some other people 1:54:25.040 --> 1:54:28.719 that were in and out, but they ended up dropping 1:54:28.840 --> 1:54:33.040 off very early on. So it was predominantly the four 1:54:33.120 --> 1:54:35.480 of us that ended up being the actual formal board 1:54:35.520 --> 1:54:38.720 at any point in the early stages, right, And so 1:54:38.840 --> 1:54:41.280 we started to draft a lot of this stuff. But like, 1:54:42.080 --> 1:54:48.120 over I was starting to wonder about two things, right, Like, 1:54:49.800 --> 1:54:54.640 after some exchanges with other board members about who it 1:54:54.920 --> 1:54:58.280 is that we should be predominantly outreaching. Should it be 1:54:58.360 --> 1:55:01.600 clinicians or should it be people that are actually impacted, 1:55:02.400 --> 1:55:05.760 people who have gone through gender affirming care, regardless of 1:55:05.800 --> 1:55:09.760 how they identify themselves currently, Like, what is our main priority? 1:55:10.480 --> 1:55:14.160 The other board member at the time wanted to focus 1:55:14.240 --> 1:55:15.360 more on the clinician route. 1:55:16.240 --> 1:55:16.720 I did not. 1:55:17.440 --> 1:55:20.160 My focus was on if we are going to be 1:55:20.640 --> 1:55:24.720 doing a quote unquote patient advocacy organization, we should be 1:55:24.840 --> 1:55:28.480 focusing on the people that we are supposed to be 1:55:28.520 --> 1:55:31.600 connected to, right, Like, those are who we are. 1:55:32.200 --> 1:55:35.200 Why would we want to put more power into the 1:55:35.320 --> 1:55:37.840 hands of the clinicians that supposedly harmed people. That doesn't 1:55:37.840 --> 1:55:43.280 make any sense, right? And then, like you know, as 1:55:43.360 --> 1:55:44.600 these wheels were starting to churn. 1:55:44.640 --> 1:55:48.600 Another part of me was starting to worry that over time, 1:55:49.800 --> 1:55:54.640 the trajectory of this organization at that point was going 1:55:54.760 --> 1:55:59.280 to start advocating for more restrictions or full out bands 1:55:59.560 --> 1:56:02.080 later on in the future, possibly even partnering up with 1:56:02.200 --> 1:56:05.600 some of the some of the more right wing groups 1:56:05.640 --> 1:56:07.120 I believe I actually. 1:56:08.760 --> 1:56:09.920 I I think I. 1:56:10.240 --> 1:56:13.839 I worried about them becoming like the gender care equivalent 1:56:13.880 --> 1:56:20.040 to Wolf, which was unfortunately pretty accurate, I would say 1:56:20.080 --> 1:56:23.200 in terms of my my concern that was. That was 1:56:23.280 --> 1:56:26.040 part of my my formal resignation to the board. I 1:56:26.800 --> 1:56:29.320 stepped down as vice president about five months after I 1:56:29.360 --> 1:56:34.200 had joined on because I could not see any I 1:56:34.280 --> 1:56:37.600 could not see any recourse within the group for for 1:56:37.800 --> 1:56:43.880 changing directions. I couldn't be party to them hurting other people, 1:56:44.440 --> 1:56:46.880 even if I felt hurt at the time, and so 1:56:47.000 --> 1:56:50.760 I ended up taking a step back. My vision was 1:56:51.760 --> 1:56:57.520 still having problems, but you know what ended up making 1:56:57.560 --> 1:57:01.760 that a lot easier. Actually, it's funny, this is not 1:57:01.880 --> 1:57:05.000 something that was recommended to me by anybody that I 1:57:05.080 --> 1:57:08.720 had been talking to about this stuff who had been 1:57:08.840 --> 1:57:14.960 more exposed to anti trans rhetoric like I I talked 1:57:15.000 --> 1:57:19.080 to blind people. Yeah, I ended up talking to to 1:57:19.240 --> 1:57:23.680 blind people. I connected with folks from the National Federation 1:57:23.920 --> 1:57:26.560 for the Blind. It was a group that was recommended 1:57:26.640 --> 1:57:29.640 to me by somebody I knew from a from a 1:57:29.760 --> 1:57:32.520 past job that I had, because she was the daughter 1:57:32.720 --> 1:57:35.480 of somebody who went blind later in life due to 1:57:35.720 --> 1:57:38.600 a genetic condition, and he was a member of the 1:57:38.800 --> 1:57:41.400 NFB right he was part of the federation, and so 1:57:41.640 --> 1:57:44.880 that was her recommendation to me. I hadn't reached out 1:57:44.880 --> 1:57:45.360 at the time. 1:57:45.480 --> 1:57:46.440 My brain was too. 1:57:47.240 --> 1:57:53.040 Focused in doing this weird we got to save people 1:57:53.240 --> 1:57:54.920 kind of bullshit direction. 1:57:55.920 --> 1:57:59.320 But like eventually, after I'm like. 1:58:00.880 --> 1:58:03.160 Taking a step back from all of this stuff, I 1:58:03.240 --> 1:58:07.360 decided to go ahead and pursue that suggestion from you know, 1:58:07.440 --> 1:58:09.880 this random person in my life, not from anybody I 1:58:09.960 --> 1:58:13.440 had been connected to in terms of organizing. And when 1:58:13.760 --> 1:58:18.960 when I went there, like the only thing that I 1:58:19.080 --> 1:58:23.600 ever got was acceptance. There was no questioning. Nobody asked 1:58:23.960 --> 1:58:30.040 what happened, Nobody asked like any sort of details about 1:58:30.440 --> 1:58:33.160 like my my personal views. Like I didn't have to 1:58:33.200 --> 1:58:35.520 express any forms of like, you know, sorrow or regret 1:58:35.600 --> 1:58:38.640 or anything like that. A lot of it was focused on, Okay, 1:58:39.400 --> 1:58:41.960 these are the issues that you're currently dealing with. Here 1:58:42.080 --> 1:58:44.360 are some of the things that you can work on 1:58:44.720 --> 1:58:46.000 to make your life easier. 1:58:46.280 --> 1:58:46.880 Here are some. 1:58:47.040 --> 1:58:50.320 Supports that you can find within your states if you 1:58:50.440 --> 1:58:53.240 need to do things like you know, get certain kinds 1:58:53.240 --> 1:58:56.240 of mobility training using a white cane and the likes, 1:58:56.960 --> 1:58:58.680 if you need to learn how to use braille, all 1:58:58.680 --> 1:59:02.120 of that fun stuff. Here, here's even like specific doctors 1:59:02.160 --> 1:59:05.800 that you could try to go to who can like 1:59:06.280 --> 1:59:09.280 really assess what's going on with your vision. Because before 1:59:09.360 --> 1:59:11.400 that point, I did not have access to specialists. I 1:59:11.520 --> 1:59:13.960 was living in like you know, rural main There was 1:59:14.560 --> 1:59:16.160 there was nothing there. I would have had to travel 1:59:16.400 --> 1:59:18.360 like over three hours to go to Boston for me 1:59:18.440 --> 1:59:21.280 to be able to see as specialist. Instead, like they 1:59:21.320 --> 1:59:25.520 were able to point me to people who had specializations 1:59:25.640 --> 1:59:30.240 in like retinal conditions, and so when I went there, 1:59:30.840 --> 1:59:33.600 you know, they they did their usual tests. They ruled 1:59:33.680 --> 1:59:37.120 out some things that were known to run in my 1:59:37.240 --> 1:59:42.960 family actually, but they did ultimately decide that, like my 1:59:43.440 --> 1:59:48.320 retinas are not processing like correctly, and that it's actually 1:59:48.520 --> 1:59:49.560 likely genetic. 1:59:50.560 --> 1:59:54.920 So unrelated to horrormone youth comes related to hormone usage. 1:59:55.040 --> 1:59:57.520 In fact, you know, as I was going through that process, 1:59:57.600 --> 2:00:01.320 and I started to reflect on and what my vision 2:00:01.520 --> 2:00:05.920 was like before I even took hormones, let alone stopping it, 2:00:06.440 --> 2:00:10.640 Like certain symptoms were actually there, just at a much 2:00:10.800 --> 2:00:16.000 lower degree. Since, like at least my teens, I already 2:00:16.200 --> 2:00:20.520 had difficulties with my night vision. I had difficulties with 2:00:21.760 --> 2:00:27.360 color contrasts. Sometimes my light sensitivity wasn't nearly as bad. 2:00:27.520 --> 2:00:31.160 Usually it was only with migrains, but over time, like 2:00:31.520 --> 2:00:34.520 you know, that started to break out more where like 2:00:34.640 --> 2:00:37.080 even just like you know, there being too much sunlight 2:00:37.280 --> 2:00:40.880 was painful for me. But like some of this stuff, 2:00:41.040 --> 2:00:45.640 it definitely predated when I started my transition. But because 2:00:45.800 --> 2:00:50.440 I wasn't really given space to actually unpack any of 2:00:50.520 --> 2:00:55.120 this stuff, I didn't really have the ability to make 2:00:55.240 --> 2:01:01.080 those connections. Instead, what happened was, you know, I join 2:01:01.200 --> 2:01:05.120 in on this organizing board. I connect in with three 2:01:05.360 --> 2:01:10.360 other people that were looking to advocate in very particular directions, 2:01:11.200 --> 2:01:17.400 and like my my story was not something that was 2:01:17.520 --> 2:01:20.920 meant to get support. My story was something that was 2:01:21.080 --> 2:01:25.720 meant to scare people. I was also nominated as the spokesperson, 2:01:26.040 --> 2:01:28.880 which meant I would have had the responsibility to do 2:01:29.080 --> 2:01:31.760 things like, you know, respond to the press or give 2:01:31.960 --> 2:01:37.360 sound quotes or whatever. Right, I gave certain kinds of 2:01:37.560 --> 2:01:42.320 descriptions over to a like a democratic candidate that we 2:01:42.440 --> 2:01:46.000 had been scheduled to meet with Ryan Starzik at the 2:01:46.080 --> 2:01:50.000 time down in Arizona, and you know, give the whole spiel, right, 2:01:50.440 --> 2:01:54.280 you know, a visible trans person with a story that 2:01:54.800 --> 2:01:59.480 for a lot of people who, like most people, are 2:01:59.560 --> 2:02:03.280 very conne to their senses, whether that's hearing, vision, touch 2:02:03.400 --> 2:02:07.720 or whatever, they can't conceptualize a life without them, and 2:02:07.880 --> 2:02:12.839 so it terrifies them. Right, But like that doesn't actually 2:02:13.000 --> 2:02:15.600 help the person be able to get to a point 2:02:15.640 --> 2:02:19.760 where this is a livable life, it's even a frame life. 2:02:20.360 --> 2:02:21.960 There are certain things that I can do that other 2:02:22.040 --> 2:02:25.080 people can't do. I can navigate inside the apartment without 2:02:25.160 --> 2:02:27.960 having the lights on because I know where everything is 2:02:28.040 --> 2:02:30.000 mapped out of my head, and I can rely on touch. 2:02:30.080 --> 2:02:31.880 I can pour myself a glass of water and not 2:02:32.040 --> 2:02:34.440 have to worry about its spilling because I can feel 2:02:34.440 --> 2:02:38.840 where it like goes up. But that's not really something 2:02:38.880 --> 2:02:42.680 that like we're not even allowed to think about. We're 2:02:42.720 --> 2:02:45.960 not even allowed to think about, Like, Okay, so if 2:02:46.240 --> 2:02:50.680 this thing happens to you and there's documented evidence of it, 2:02:51.000 --> 2:02:55.040 not like something that's completely imagined, like my brain decided 2:02:55.240 --> 2:02:58.520 it was, here's what we can do to help. That's 2:02:59.120 --> 2:03:01.640 that's the kind of things people really need to be 2:03:01.760 --> 2:03:04.480 able to access, right, you know, if something happens to you, 2:03:04.600 --> 2:03:06.800 these are the things that you can do to be 2:03:06.880 --> 2:03:10.240 able to work through this and live a more comfortable 2:03:10.520 --> 2:03:12.960 life in the way that you are happy with. But 2:03:13.480 --> 2:03:15.480 I don't really see any of that happening to be 2:03:15.560 --> 2:03:21.600 perfectly frank well, no, Like I'm also thinking back about that, 2:03:21.920 --> 2:03:24.640 like the standards of care A because like you know, 2:03:24.800 --> 2:03:29.680 there's this you know, inclusion of aspects of regret and 2:03:29.760 --> 2:03:32.120 de transition and stuff like that into things like the 2:03:32.160 --> 2:03:35.600 adolescent chapter. But you know what, they don't include a 2:03:35.720 --> 2:03:39.520 chapter for de transition support. Yes, no, because they're not 2:03:39.600 --> 2:03:40.200 serious about that. 2:03:40.280 --> 2:03:41.560 I guess I just want to use it as like 2:03:42.160 --> 2:03:46.040 a scared story and a justification for controlling people exactly, 2:03:46.200 --> 2:03:47.960 you know, putting them through a bunch of assessments or 2:03:48.000 --> 2:03:50.400 something like that. Like again, I very much believe that 2:03:50.440 --> 2:03:54.480 there's a connection between like a desire for more gatekeeping 2:03:54.560 --> 2:03:57.280 and psych assessments, control over trans people and not having 2:03:57.360 --> 2:04:01.360 support for like de transition transition either because there's not 2:04:01.600 --> 2:04:06.320 like I feel like there's even less talk or resources 2:04:06.360 --> 2:04:09.400 for people end up retransitioning after de transitioning, because no 2:04:09.440 --> 2:04:12.160 one's trying to figure out like, oh, like the idea 2:04:12.240 --> 2:04:15.040 that transition could just be temporary or that a lot 2:04:15.120 --> 2:04:17.720 of people you don't go on to retransition later on 2:04:18.000 --> 2:04:20.440 or just confirms for them that they really are brands. 2:04:20.560 --> 2:04:22.480 Like that's also a thing that you know, just just 2:04:22.560 --> 2:04:23.800 people don't really want to touch. 2:04:24.600 --> 2:04:30.920 It's one of these things where you know, like pain 2:04:31.080 --> 2:04:34.760 is useful to these people, but like the actual like 2:04:34.880 --> 2:04:39.160 people experiencing the pain aren't, and you know, and that 2:04:39.280 --> 2:04:41.680 has its own perversion center cycle because like, yeah, if 2:04:41.920 --> 2:04:44.040 you want to harvest scare stories, you don't want people 2:04:44.080 --> 2:04:49.640 getting actual help. And that is an absolutely terrible, incensive 2:04:49.680 --> 2:04:53.480 structure for making sure people actually get the care and 2:04:53.520 --> 2:04:57.600 the help that they need, and it absolutely sucks. 2:04:59.240 --> 2:05:03.200 Just yeah, oh I remember realizing, like when I was 2:05:03.240 --> 2:05:06.400 still a de Trens radical feminist, like realizing that a 2:05:06.400 --> 2:05:10.400 whole lot of like people who wanted to restrict or 2:05:10.440 --> 2:05:14.560 lumny transition like like headed investment in my suffering. 2:05:14.760 --> 2:05:16.800 Because you know, I was, and I was struggling a 2:05:16.840 --> 2:05:17.360 lot like I do. 2:05:18.080 --> 2:05:21.360 It can really be hard to do transition like right 2:05:21.440 --> 2:05:23.520 now because there are you know, there is a lack 2:05:23.560 --> 2:05:26.160 of resources and support and understanding. But the thing is, 2:05:26.280 --> 2:05:28.720 like I you know, I kind of slowly realized over time, 2:05:28.760 --> 2:05:30.760 it's just like, oh, all these people want to use 2:05:30.840 --> 2:05:33.120 my story, but they need me to suffer for it 2:05:33.280 --> 2:05:35.200 to like work out for them. Like they don't have 2:05:35.280 --> 2:05:37.800 any interest in making my life easier, Like they don't 2:05:37.800 --> 2:05:40.000 have any interest in like helping me like create a 2:05:40.040 --> 2:05:42.280 good life and being happy. They want me, they really 2:05:42.320 --> 2:05:45.560 do want me to be ruined and miserable forever because 2:05:45.600 --> 2:05:47.960 they can use like that's more valuable to them, Like 2:05:48.120 --> 2:05:50.440 my suffering matters more than my happiness to a lot 2:05:50.440 --> 2:05:52.160 of these people. Like you know, that was definitely one 2:05:52.160 --> 2:05:54.640 of those moments where I was like, what, like one 2:05:54.640 --> 2:05:56.880 of those things that eventually, you know, led me to 2:05:56.920 --> 2:05:58.720 get disillusion with the whole thing and be like you 2:05:58.760 --> 2:06:01.880 know what I get myself involved with? But yeah, yeah, 2:06:02.000 --> 2:06:05.120 it's just it's it is really like sick and perverse. 2:06:05.200 --> 2:06:10.200 How how anti trans people like you suffering use both 2:06:10.240 --> 2:06:12.520 trans anti trans people suffering for their own agenda. 2:06:14.160 --> 2:06:14.680 It's awful. 2:06:16.240 --> 2:06:20.760 Yeah, And I think this is something that you know, 2:06:21.040 --> 2:06:23.760 there's this is the sort of it's it's also that 2:06:23.880 --> 2:06:26.040 there's a broader set of incentives here too, which is 2:06:26.080 --> 2:06:28.160 the sort of the structure of the media market, right, 2:06:28.200 --> 2:06:32.680 which that the media that's like the like you know, 2:06:32.720 --> 2:06:36.440 the the entire media broadly, like you know, like if 2:06:36.680 --> 2:06:38.680 it bleeds, it leads, right Like that's that's that's the 2:06:38.920 --> 2:06:42.320 that's the actual media model of you know, everything from 2:06:42.440 --> 2:06:45.760 like your like shitty local right wing tabloid to like 2:06:45.920 --> 2:06:49.600 the New York Times, right mm hmm. And the way 2:06:49.680 --> 2:06:53.280 that this plays out for trans people and for de 2:06:53.360 --> 2:06:55.880 trans people is that like like the thing that these 2:06:55.920 --> 2:06:58.480 people that you know, the journalists also are looking for 2:06:59.520 --> 2:07:03.840 is suffering. Like they don't really care, you know, like 2:07:04.000 --> 2:07:06.800 they like none of these people ever report stories that 2:07:06.920 --> 2:07:09.600 are just like hey, like I went to a gender 2:07:09.640 --> 2:07:13.040 clinic and it was great, Like nobody's gonna read like 2:07:13.160 --> 2:07:14.520 I don't think anyone's going to read that, Like I 2:07:14.560 --> 2:07:17.440 would read that because you know that's you know, that's great, 2:07:17.480 --> 2:07:19.160 but like like they don't care about that that there's 2:07:19.200 --> 2:07:23.680 there's no sort of sensationalism there. The sensationalism is like, 2:07:24.400 --> 2:07:26.440 you know, then this is why you get like the 2:07:26.560 --> 2:07:30.040 Washington Post interviewing this light. You know, like these people 2:07:30.120 --> 2:07:33.200 who are just like, oh, like I was, I worked 2:07:33.200 --> 2:07:36.000 at a gender clinic, but I was secretly doing evil 2:07:36.640 --> 2:07:38.760 or like you know, or or or you get all 2:07:38.800 --> 2:07:40.240 of it. And this is why a lot of even 2:07:40.320 --> 2:07:44.560 protrans like media coverage is about things like suicide rates 2:07:44.600 --> 2:07:49.080 and about things like, you know, like how like how 2:07:49.320 --> 2:07:51.480 likely you are to die if you don't cut the 2:07:51.480 --> 2:07:54.560 health care that you need, because it's it's the same 2:07:54.600 --> 2:07:57.200 as inra structure. It's the thing, the thing that's useful 2:07:57.280 --> 2:08:02.280 to sell to people is suffering and that I don't 2:08:02.560 --> 2:08:05.720 know what the solution is to that, because I mean, 2:08:05.760 --> 2:08:09.440 I don't know have have media that's not based on profit, 2:08:09.880 --> 2:08:18.960 I guess, but like you know, decommodify the news. But 2:08:19.200 --> 2:08:20.680 that's one of these things where it's like, you know, 2:08:20.840 --> 2:08:23.880 like as long as long as like every single like 2:08:24.480 --> 2:08:27.000 shitty local newspaper is making all of their money from 2:08:27.200 --> 2:08:30.960 like crime scare stories, they're not going to report. They're 2:08:30.960 --> 2:08:32.680 not going to You're not gonna get active reporting about 2:08:32.680 --> 2:08:36.120 police because they need the police to give them, like 2:08:36.200 --> 2:08:38.040 feed them all of these shitty crime stories, right, And 2:08:38.120 --> 2:08:39.720 this is the same thing here where it's like you're 2:08:39.760 --> 2:08:43.680 not going to get actual good reporting about trans people 2:08:43.760 --> 2:08:49.800 and about people who do transition because nobody actually cares 2:08:49.840 --> 2:08:52.880 about that because the incentive structure is just suffering and 2:08:52.960 --> 2:08:58.360 that trickles down through through the healthcare system and through 2:08:59.360 --> 2:09:03.200 you know, through through the legislative system, and it trickles 2:09:03.240 --> 2:09:06.320 down through our social networks and what support networks exist 2:09:06.400 --> 2:09:14.320 and don't exist. And it's a absolutely like if you 2:09:14.400 --> 2:09:17.160 were just to like ask someone how do you want 2:09:17.200 --> 2:09:21.040 a society to be run, zero people would answer we 2:09:21.160 --> 2:09:23.160 want it to be based on the production of suffering. 2:09:23.360 --> 2:09:27.760 And yet we have done this, but it doesn't have 2:09:28.000 --> 2:09:30.480 to be like this. To sort of finish that David 2:09:30.520 --> 2:09:34.480 Graver quote, the ultimate hidden truth of the world is 2:09:34.520 --> 2:09:37.080 that it is something that we make and could just 2:09:37.160 --> 2:09:40.600 as easily make differently. So let's go build a world 2:09:40.680 --> 2:09:44.480 that's safe for trans people. This has been nickeld happened here. 2:09:44.640 --> 2:09:46.600 You can find more of Lee and Kai's work a 2:09:46.680 --> 2:09:49.280 Health Liberation Now dot com. I recommend you go do it. 2:09:49.360 --> 2:09:52.960 It is great and go and make the world. 2:09:52.840 --> 2:10:13.640 Otherwise welcome back to it could happen here. 2:10:13.960 --> 2:10:17.480 I am, once again Robert Evans talking about it happening 2:10:17.680 --> 2:10:20.520 here and in the case of today, because we mean 2:10:20.600 --> 2:10:22.720 something different every time I introduce the show. That way, 2:10:23.600 --> 2:10:27.839 we're talking about the carserral state and the worst reactive 2:10:27.880 --> 2:10:32.960 impulses of society coming for people who use drugs recreationally, 2:10:33.040 --> 2:10:35.320 who either have a problem or don't with them and 2:10:35.400 --> 2:10:38.120 simply don't want to go to prison for it. And specifically, 2:10:38.200 --> 2:10:40.560 we're talking about all of that within the context of 2:10:40.640 --> 2:10:44.320 the state of Oregon, where I reside, because back in 2:10:44.440 --> 2:10:47.640 twenty twenty, the state of Oregon passed a measure, the 2:10:47.760 --> 2:10:52.640 first in the nation, decriminalizing all simple possession and use 2:10:52.920 --> 2:10:58.600 of street drugs. So heroin, methamphetamine, marijuana was already legal, 2:10:58.680 --> 2:10:58.960 but you. 2:10:59.000 --> 2:10:59.880 Know everything is. 2:11:00.120 --> 2:11:03.920 You can't get arrested for simple possession of small amounts 2:11:04.000 --> 2:11:06.360 of stuff, right, That's the gist of the law. This 2:11:06.520 --> 2:11:09.840 passed by a pretty wide margin, fifty eight points something 2:11:09.960 --> 2:11:13.000 percent of Oregonians voted for it. It was a ballot measure, 2:11:13.160 --> 2:11:18.320 not something the legislature pushed through, and it came as Oregon, 2:11:18.480 --> 2:11:21.400 like the rest of the country, was kind of wrapped 2:11:21.520 --> 2:11:25.840 in the grip of an escalating drug crisis. In twenty twenty, 2:11:25.960 --> 2:11:29.040 and again that's before the ballot measure passed, Oregon had 2:11:29.080 --> 2:11:31.680 the second highest rate of drug addiction in the country 2:11:32.120 --> 2:11:35.760 and ranked nearly last in access to treatment. From twenty 2:11:35.920 --> 2:11:39.120 nineteen to twenty twenty, opioid overdose deaths in Oregon increased 2:11:39.120 --> 2:11:42.520 by about seventy percent. So that makes the case that 2:11:42.680 --> 2:11:45.720 the problem prior to the ballot measure was pretty severe 2:11:45.840 --> 2:11:48.360 and that the current state of affairs, which was everything 2:11:48.480 --> 2:11:51.160 was illegal and you could go to jail for possession of, say, heroin, 2:11:52.080 --> 2:11:54.360 was not working out for anybody. However, in the years 2:11:54.400 --> 2:11:57.920 since the ballot measure passed, overdoses have continued to rise 2:11:58.000 --> 2:12:01.720 in Oregon, and miraculous almost the drug problem did not 2:12:02.200 --> 2:12:04.240 solve itself overnight. Now we're gonna be talking about some 2:12:04.320 --> 2:12:05.920 reasons for that. But now it is time for me 2:12:06.360 --> 2:12:10.480 to introduce our guest for the episode, Oregon Public Defender 2:12:10.640 --> 2:12:12.760 Grant Hartley Grant, Welcome. 2:12:12.440 --> 2:12:12.800 To the show. 2:12:12.920 --> 2:12:14.680 Yeah, thanks for having me, Robert, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:12:15.040 --> 2:12:17.560 So, first off, I wanted to say from where you're 2:12:17.680 --> 2:12:21.760 standing as somebody whose job is to represent Oregonians generally 2:12:21.840 --> 2:12:24.800 with the least resources who were charged with crimes. What 2:12:24.960 --> 2:12:27.320 were you saying prior to one ten and what are 2:12:27.360 --> 2:12:28.080 you saying after it? 2:12:28.720 --> 2:12:32.960 Well, I think prior to one ten, we had, you know, 2:12:33.040 --> 2:12:36.120 a population similar to what we have now, which is 2:12:36.760 --> 2:12:42.840 individuals who were struggling with houselessness, with housing instability, who 2:12:42.960 --> 2:12:45.440 were struggling with mental health. And as a result of 2:12:45.640 --> 2:12:50.800 many of those factors and others were copied with substances, 2:12:51.280 --> 2:12:54.800 and as a result of that, many of them would 2:12:54.800 --> 2:12:57.800 get wrapped into the legal system. And one of the 2:12:57.880 --> 2:13:01.440 issues with our legal system is that it is based 2:13:01.600 --> 2:13:06.480 on compulsion, and so when someone came into the system 2:13:06.960 --> 2:13:09.880 with a drug problem, our first reaction is to compel 2:13:09.920 --> 2:13:12.560 them into treatment, to force them into treatment, even though 2:13:12.720 --> 2:13:17.480 we know that that is not effective, and you know 2:13:17.680 --> 2:13:20.800 at times it can be. And generally where you see 2:13:20.880 --> 2:13:24.280 the most success with it is where there's more hanging 2:13:24.320 --> 2:13:26.880 over the person's head, more leverage that the system has. 2:13:27.320 --> 2:13:30.320 And so, you know, somebody who has a substance use 2:13:30.400 --> 2:13:33.560 disorder and commits a robbery and is put on probation 2:13:33.800 --> 2:13:36.080 and they have a choice between going to prison and 2:13:36.400 --> 2:13:41.240 doing treatment, much more likely to engage in treatment. But 2:13:41.440 --> 2:13:44.920 when you have low level possession, where as a society 2:13:45.000 --> 2:13:48.040 we've deemed that should not be punished by prison, and 2:13:48.400 --> 2:13:51.360 frankly that should not be punished by jail. The problem 2:13:51.520 --> 2:13:54.080 is is that the only tool that the system has 2:13:54.600 --> 2:13:57.280 is jail, and so if somebody says I'm not ready 2:13:57.280 --> 2:14:00.000 for treatment, the system says, well, we're going to put 2:14:00.120 --> 2:14:01.720 you in jail that and then they go to jail, 2:14:02.320 --> 2:14:06.160 they're what little they have is destabilized and they get 2:14:06.240 --> 2:14:09.800 out without any treatment. And as you mentioned in the opening, 2:14:09.880 --> 2:14:14.200 the biggest thing is just the incredible dearth of services 2:14:14.640 --> 2:14:20.240 in our community. There is not nearly enough outpatient treatment, 2:14:20.280 --> 2:14:23.880 but especially in patient treatment, and that's that's important for 2:14:23.920 --> 2:14:27.040 those houseless folks, because you can't expect somebody to engage 2:14:27.080 --> 2:14:29.400 in outpatient treatment and then go back and sleep on 2:14:29.480 --> 2:14:32.640 the street at night and not use So I know 2:14:33.120 --> 2:14:35.760 that's I think the general gist of what it looked like. 2:14:36.520 --> 2:14:40.000 Yeah, I think that's all really important to keep in mind, 2:14:40.080 --> 2:14:42.240 and it's particularly important and the reason we're doing this 2:14:42.440 --> 2:14:45.600 episode is because the last two years really is when 2:14:45.640 --> 2:14:50.680 it's escalated. We have seen this increasing and very organized 2:14:50.760 --> 2:14:53.160 campaign against One ten and it's being pushed by the 2:14:53.240 --> 2:14:55.680 police who are angry that they're not able to arrest 2:14:55.840 --> 2:14:58.800 more people, particularly more homeless people. It's pushed by a 2:14:58.840 --> 2:15:01.120 lot of business owners who have convinced themselves that the 2:15:01.200 --> 2:15:03.560 reason why downtown Portland has had such a hard couple 2:15:03.560 --> 2:15:06.240 of years is because there's too many homeless people and 2:15:06.360 --> 2:15:07.840 they can go after them and get them off the 2:15:07.880 --> 2:15:10.240 street by having them arrested. This is all my opinion, 2:15:10.480 --> 2:15:12.560 not yours here, but there has been What is not 2:15:12.720 --> 2:15:15.280 up for opinion is that there has been an escalating 2:15:15.400 --> 2:15:18.240 campaign to portray the measure as a disaster and to 2:15:18.360 --> 2:15:22.120 portray it as the center of particularly Portland's ills, but 2:15:22.280 --> 2:15:25.960 also more broadly the state of Oregon's ills. And I 2:15:26.000 --> 2:15:28.880 think there's a number of reasons why that's dishonest, which 2:15:28.880 --> 2:15:31.760 we'll talk about. But where that's kind of culminated now 2:15:32.040 --> 2:15:34.760 is this year. There are two big pushes to get 2:15:34.880 --> 2:15:36.680 rid of one ten. One of them is the push 2:15:37.520 --> 2:15:40.200 by a ballot measure or to put out a ballot 2:15:40.200 --> 2:15:43.520 measure basically repealing one ten as it exists, and the 2:15:43.600 --> 2:15:45.720 other is a push by the legislature. And you kind 2:15:45.760 --> 2:15:48.840 of have separate plans pushed by the DIMS and the 2:15:48.920 --> 2:15:52.360 Republicans to in the case of the Republican plan, basically 2:15:52.440 --> 2:15:54.160 put things back to the way they were, if not 2:15:54.320 --> 2:15:56.480 more severe in terms of your ability to arrest people 2:15:56.520 --> 2:16:00.680 for possession. And the Democrats' plans is to re criminalized 2:16:00.680 --> 2:16:03.440 possession but make it all basically at the lowest level 2:16:03.480 --> 2:16:06.040 of misdemeanor. I don't think either of those are good plans, 2:16:06.080 --> 2:16:07.680 But I wanted to talk about kind of how you 2:16:07.680 --> 2:16:11.600 would characterize the backlash campaign against one ten and how 2:16:11.680 --> 2:16:13.960 much of it do you think is rooted in actual 2:16:14.080 --> 2:16:15.080 problems caused. 2:16:14.880 --> 2:16:15.440 By the measure? 2:16:15.920 --> 2:16:19.840 No, I mean it is caused the most of the backlash. 2:16:20.280 --> 2:16:22.360 I would agree with you that it is a lot 2:16:22.400 --> 2:16:25.360 of business communities, but it's also just you know, average 2:16:25.400 --> 2:16:30.760 Portlanders because what they see is people on the streets struggling, 2:16:31.400 --> 2:16:35.840 using drugs in public because that is the only place 2:16:35.920 --> 2:16:40.000 that they can use drugs, and you know, that's a 2:16:40.120 --> 2:16:43.280 problem of houselessness. They people have to ask themselves, am 2:16:43.320 --> 2:16:45.360 I upset that I'm seeing somebody use drugs? Or am 2:16:45.360 --> 2:16:47.840 I upset that this person is sleeping on the street 2:16:48.000 --> 2:16:50.160 and needing to use the drugs in the street. And 2:16:50.480 --> 2:16:52.320 that is the same of business owners. You know, they 2:16:52.720 --> 2:16:55.520 call and complain that there's somebody on the stoop next 2:16:55.560 --> 2:16:59.520 to them using fentanyl, But is the issue that that 2:16:59.600 --> 2:17:01.680 person is using fentanyl or is the issue that that 2:17:01.800 --> 2:17:04.040 person is on the stoop next to them? Because there 2:17:04.080 --> 2:17:06.640 are no housing services in our city and so really 2:17:07.120 --> 2:17:11.080 Measure one ten is being scapegoaded for two huge issues, 2:17:11.120 --> 2:17:14.720 which is the influx of synthetic heroin or fentanyl into 2:17:14.760 --> 2:17:18.480 our community and into every community around the nation. It 2:17:18.640 --> 2:17:25.120 is not restricted to Portland or to Oregon because we decriminalized, 2:17:25.400 --> 2:17:29.480 it is everywhere. And then just the houselessness crisis, which 2:17:30.120 --> 2:17:33.840 is tremendous in our city. It is so bad, and 2:17:34.879 --> 2:17:40.360 people are essentially arguing that because we decriminalize drugs, more 2:17:40.480 --> 2:17:44.000 people are on the street, and I just don't think 2:17:44.040 --> 2:17:45.720 that there is any data to support that. 2:17:46.680 --> 2:17:50.520 Yeah, And I think part of the reason why people 2:17:51.040 --> 2:17:54.480 suspect that is again because of how much dramatically worse 2:17:54.560 --> 2:17:57.279 the problem has gotten in recent years. But it's gotten 2:17:57.360 --> 2:18:01.199 worse everywhere. It's gotten worse in states like Oklahoma, where 2:18:01.520 --> 2:18:04.800 it is and has remained very illegal to possess this stuff. 2:18:05.720 --> 2:18:09.160 Oregon is not the state with the worst death problem 2:18:09.320 --> 2:18:12.040 due to drugs, per capita, and the states that are 2:18:12.160 --> 2:18:15.080 worse or are worse in various ways, are all states 2:18:15.160 --> 2:18:18.120 in which it's criminalized. It's very frustrated to me when 2:18:18.160 --> 2:18:19.840 you look at like, well, we passed one ten in 2:18:19.920 --> 2:18:22.240 twenty twenty, and these problems have gotten worse since, and 2:18:22.280 --> 2:18:23.840 it's like, well, but these are all problems that have 2:18:23.920 --> 2:18:26.240 gotten worse everywhere, and they are problems that are not 2:18:26.560 --> 2:18:28.959 driven by legality or at least the fact that it's 2:18:29.000 --> 2:18:31.640 no longer criminal to possess heroin. It's driven by the 2:18:31.680 --> 2:18:34.560 fact that we had a horrible pandemic that traumatized people. 2:18:34.640 --> 2:18:37.240 They lost loved ones, they lost jobs, they lost support. 2:18:37.600 --> 2:18:39.440 It's driven by the fact that the price of housing 2:18:39.520 --> 2:18:42.800 continues to rise. It's driven by inflation. It's driven by 2:18:42.840 --> 2:18:45.640 the fact that, I mean, to no small part, everybody's 2:18:45.680 --> 2:18:48.240 got brain worms from social media. That's not a zero 2:18:48.440 --> 2:18:52.320 percent factor in both people's anger at the houseless and 2:18:52.600 --> 2:18:54.640 in the fact that people are falling through the cracks. 2:18:54.760 --> 2:18:56.640 Like we have a million different things. 2:18:56.680 --> 2:18:59.440 I don't mean the list that is a comprehensive list 2:18:59.480 --> 2:19:04.240 of our problems, either, like drug addiction and drug deaths 2:19:04.320 --> 2:19:07.240 due to overdoses are caused by a variety of things. 2:19:07.320 --> 2:19:09.840 And one of the reasons why the death rate has 2:19:09.920 --> 2:19:13.200 been so high is that if you're addicted to heroin, 2:19:13.440 --> 2:19:16.920 you can't just stop doing heroin or the consequences are really, 2:19:17.040 --> 2:19:19.000 really horrible, worse than a lot of people are going 2:19:19.040 --> 2:19:22.120 to deal with. And so people keep using, and they 2:19:22.240 --> 2:19:25.160 keep getting drugs that have been tainted with fentanyl, and 2:19:25.240 --> 2:19:27.920 it's hard not to die doing that. Like, rich people 2:19:28.040 --> 2:19:30.520 can continue to test their kids. People who are you know, 2:19:30.640 --> 2:19:33.880 have had the benefit of not just education, but a 2:19:33.959 --> 2:19:36.480 stable home in which to do drugs and sort of 2:19:36.560 --> 2:19:39.360 the resources to know and to be able to test 2:19:39.400 --> 2:19:41.879 their shit, will test their shit. But most street level 2:19:41.959 --> 2:19:46.400 users don't have that kind of option. And it frustrates 2:19:46.440 --> 2:19:50.520 me that it's all getting scapegoaded this on this ballot measure, 2:19:50.560 --> 2:19:52.240 And so I wanted to talk a little bit about 2:19:53.000 --> 2:19:55.800 how they're attempting to go after one ten because it 2:19:55.879 --> 2:20:00.200 looks like right now the primary threat is legislative part, 2:20:00.280 --> 2:20:03.720 because if they push another ballot measure, Oregonians get to 2:20:03.800 --> 2:20:06.560 vote and we'll see how they vote. But reversing it 2:20:06.680 --> 2:20:09.240 by ten, you know, almost a ten percent lead, is 2:20:09.320 --> 2:20:11.080 not an easy thing to do, and I kind of 2:20:11.160 --> 2:20:14.240 think Oregonians might surprise them in terms of not being 2:20:14.320 --> 2:20:17.640 willing to repeal this thing legislatively. We don't have really 2:20:17.959 --> 2:20:20.000 that kind of option against it. If they're able to 2:20:20.040 --> 2:20:23.480 get a kind of enough people behind an essential repeal, 2:20:23.959 --> 2:20:26.480 and they'll frame it as you know, we're just trying 2:20:26.520 --> 2:20:28.440 to tinker with the law to make it work better. 2:20:28.480 --> 2:20:30.520 But if they can get enough people behind that, there's 2:20:30.560 --> 2:20:32.440 really nothing to do about it, right, Yeah. 2:20:32.360 --> 2:20:35.120 Yeah, And I think you know, one of the things that, 2:20:35.920 --> 2:20:38.240 in my opinion was a strategy on the part of 2:20:38.560 --> 2:20:40.960 the opponents of one ten was I mean, they have 2:20:41.120 --> 2:20:44.640 some very wealthy financial backers, yes, and so you know 2:20:44.879 --> 2:20:48.200 it is not cheap to do a ballot measure, and 2:20:48.879 --> 2:20:52.280 you know, they know that they can use that money 2:20:52.400 --> 2:20:54.880 to do media buys and to spread all of the 2:20:54.959 --> 2:20:58.720 misinformation that they've been spreading thus far. And I think 2:20:58.840 --> 2:21:01.560 that frankly, there are people in the legislature that don't 2:21:01.680 --> 2:21:05.879 want to recriminalize but feel that it is the lesser 2:21:06.000 --> 2:21:09.160 of two evils. And the unfortunate thing is that what 2:21:09.320 --> 2:21:12.000 we are essentially doing is delivering them a watered down 2:21:12.120 --> 2:21:14.440 version of that ballot measure. And they were intentional in 2:21:14.480 --> 2:21:16.240 that ballot measure. I mean, they made it as bad 2:21:16.320 --> 2:21:19.920 as could be. That it includes more than just recriminalization. 2:21:20.800 --> 2:21:23.720 You know, it includes what is commonly known as lend 2:21:23.800 --> 2:21:27.280 bias law in federal courts, which is essentially that people 2:21:27.320 --> 2:21:30.840 who deliver a substance that causes an overdose can be 2:21:30.920 --> 2:21:36.400 prosecuted essentially for murder. And it is a archaic understanding 2:21:36.520 --> 2:21:39.480 of how the distribution of drugs works or the testing 2:21:39.520 --> 2:21:42.480 of drugs works, And so they tried to make it 2:21:42.560 --> 2:21:44.840 as bad as possible in order for the legislature to 2:21:44.959 --> 2:21:47.920 essentially go, well, we don't want that to happen. And 2:21:48.120 --> 2:21:50.840 you know, I would worry about a ballot measure. I mean, 2:21:51.000 --> 2:21:53.560 I agree with you that it's a big swing, and 2:21:54.160 --> 2:21:58.120 I have faith in the voters of Oregon. But the 2:21:58.240 --> 2:22:02.480 fact is is that the media has portrayed this very unfairly. 2:22:02.959 --> 2:22:05.880 You know, there was an article recently from the editorial 2:22:06.120 --> 2:22:11.440 board at The Oregonian and they advocated for recriminalization, and 2:22:11.760 --> 2:22:15.199 in it they cited that they want a data driven approach. 2:22:15.600 --> 2:22:17.879 There was not a piece of data in that article. 2:22:18.200 --> 2:22:21.920 It was all based on misinformation. And the same is true. 2:22:21.959 --> 2:22:24.760 I mean, law enforcement are the worst about this. You know, 2:22:24.879 --> 2:22:28.120 they're constantly saying, oh, well, we just want tools so 2:22:28.280 --> 2:22:31.520 that we can confiscate the drugs and so that we 2:22:31.760 --> 2:22:34.360 can refer people to treatment, because we all know that's 2:22:34.640 --> 2:22:37.160 all police officers want to do. And yet when you 2:22:37.360 --> 2:22:40.320 look at the E citations that came out of Measure 2:22:40.360 --> 2:22:43.440 one ten, those were meant as to be a referral tool. 2:22:44.000 --> 2:22:45.680 And that was one of the big mistakes of one 2:22:45.760 --> 2:22:49.400 ten is trying to use police officers as an ambassador 2:22:49.560 --> 2:22:54.240 for treatment. There is a culture in the police community 2:22:54.720 --> 2:22:58.560 that it treats drugs as crimes. Right, you are a 2:22:58.640 --> 2:23:01.040 criminal if you are a drug user, and I am not. 2:23:01.240 --> 2:23:03.080 You know, I'm not saying police are a monolith. I'm 2:23:03.120 --> 2:23:06.279 saying that is the culture that exists. And to expect 2:23:06.400 --> 2:23:10.080 them to change that overnight because the voters said they 2:23:10.120 --> 2:23:14.480 wanted to decriminalize was rather naive and it's obvious because 2:23:15.040 --> 2:23:19.000 just here in Maltnoma County, I think in basically a 2:23:19.160 --> 2:23:22.120 twenty four month period they issued something like nine hundred 2:23:22.680 --> 2:23:25.360 E citations or that was during a thirty month period, 2:23:25.360 --> 2:23:28.200 excuse me. And during a twenty four month period in 2:23:28.320 --> 2:23:32.480 twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen, they arrested more than thirty 2:23:32.520 --> 2:23:36.400 three hundred people on PCs, and that is what nearly 2:23:36.520 --> 2:23:39.400 three times more than three times as many people when 2:23:39.400 --> 2:23:41.720 they were able to put handcuffs on the people that 2:23:41.840 --> 2:23:45.600 they were meeting with, and Maltnoma County was actually better 2:23:45.680 --> 2:23:48.280 than a most you look at Washington County, seventy one 2:23:48.320 --> 2:23:53.040 e citations in thirty months. Seventy one tickets were given 2:23:53.080 --> 2:23:54.960 on this and the ticket was supposed to be the 2:23:55.080 --> 2:23:59.080 tool by which somebody is referred to treatment, and so 2:23:59.320 --> 2:24:02.400 you know, in some ways, Measure one ten had some 2:24:02.720 --> 2:24:06.760 serious structural and implementation issues, but that doesn't mean that 2:24:06.879 --> 2:24:09.200 we just go back to what the voters saw. 2:24:10.320 --> 2:24:12.400 One of the things that was the biggest issue in 2:24:12.480 --> 2:24:15.320 implementation is that a lot of funds were supposed to 2:24:15.360 --> 2:24:17.840 be redirected, I think from marijuana sales was one of 2:24:17.879 --> 2:24:21.440 the places to treatment facilities and treatment options for people 2:24:21.760 --> 2:24:23.560 like these people who are supposed to be getting tickets 2:24:23.560 --> 2:24:25.800 instead of arrested for drug use were supposed to being 2:24:26.320 --> 2:24:30.640 kind of pushed gently towards options, but the actual money 2:24:30.720 --> 2:24:33.480 for those options took more than a year to start arriving, 2:24:33.600 --> 2:24:35.920 and it is still not at a very good clip 2:24:36.000 --> 2:24:37.920 and there's a number of reasons for this, but like 2:24:39.320 --> 2:24:41.760 when they frame it as like will be decriminalized stuff, 2:24:41.800 --> 2:24:43.760 and all these problems kept getting worse, It's like, well, 2:24:43.800 --> 2:24:45.920 for one thing, they kept getting worse. They were getting 2:24:45.959 --> 2:24:47.960 worse when everything was illegal at a rapid pace. And 2:24:48.080 --> 2:24:50.720 number two, you didn't do what was supposed to be 2:24:50.800 --> 2:24:53.240 half of the measure, which was increasing the amount of 2:24:53.400 --> 2:24:54.680 care that people had access to. 2:24:54.920 --> 2:24:55.080 Yeah. 2:24:55.120 --> 2:24:57.560 Absolutely, And would to hear people talk about it now. 2:24:57.600 --> 2:24:59.720 I mean during a legislative committee, I think there was 2:25:00.120 --> 2:25:03.680 one representative or senator who said to take well, why 2:25:03.879 --> 2:25:05.840 did it take so long for this to get implemented? 2:25:06.280 --> 2:25:08.560 It was twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Like people 2:25:08.840 --> 2:25:13.400 are quickly forgetting how chaotic things were that And the 2:25:13.520 --> 2:25:15.720 other thing is that when you put that money into 2:25:15.760 --> 2:25:18.880 the system, it takes a while to build beds, to 2:25:19.600 --> 2:25:22.840 hire people to do that. And what the opponents of 2:25:22.879 --> 2:25:24.920 one ten are doing, what the people seeking to recriminalize 2:25:24.920 --> 2:25:28.240 they're doing, and they're really praying on our collective impatience. 2:25:28.840 --> 2:25:28.960 You know. 2:25:29.400 --> 2:25:32.720 It's they're saying, oh, well, you know, nobody is going 2:25:33.040 --> 2:25:36.840 and voluntarily engaging in treatment. Therefore we must mandate it, 2:25:37.200 --> 2:25:40.360 and again, no one's voluntarily engaging in treatment because there's 2:25:40.440 --> 2:25:43.959 no treatment available to voluntarily engage in. And the idea 2:25:44.040 --> 2:25:47.520 that by making it criminal we can somehow fix that 2:25:48.400 --> 2:25:51.240 is actually counterproductive because we're taking all those funds that 2:25:51.320 --> 2:25:55.040 we could be putting into additional services into outreach, and 2:25:55.160 --> 2:25:58.440 we're instead putting it back into law enforcement or into probation, 2:25:58.640 --> 2:26:00.840 or into the jails or into the state lab to 2:26:01.000 --> 2:26:01.840 test these drugs. 2:26:02.400 --> 2:26:04.120 And I want to continue off of that, and I 2:26:04.200 --> 2:26:06.240 want to talk bring out some more data too, but 2:26:06.360 --> 2:26:08.720 first we have to go do a plug to ads. 2:26:08.920 --> 2:26:20.520 So here's ads, folks, all. 2:26:20.480 --> 2:26:21.280 Right, we are back. 2:26:22.080 --> 2:26:23.800 We're back, And I wanted to I think there's two 2:26:23.920 --> 2:26:26.360 really good things to keep in mind when as an 2:26:26.400 --> 2:26:29.720 Oregonian you're arguing with friends and family about one ten 2:26:30.160 --> 2:26:31.879 or if you're outside of the state and people bring 2:26:31.920 --> 2:26:34.080 it up because they saw like a three minute piece 2:26:34.160 --> 2:26:36.960 on Fox News where some smarmy asshole talk to a 2:26:37.040 --> 2:26:40.000 guy on the street, you know you should be aware 2:26:40.000 --> 2:26:41.800 of a couple of things. Number One, when people talk 2:26:41.840 --> 2:26:44.280 about how it's not working, the thing that you should 2:26:44.280 --> 2:26:45.920 bring up is like, well, what about the forty years 2:26:46.000 --> 2:26:48.640 or so of criminalization prior like that led us to 2:26:48.760 --> 2:26:51.840 this point and at which the acceleration in depths was highest. 2:26:52.720 --> 2:26:55.480 And the other thing to bring up is, well, there's 2:26:55.720 --> 2:26:59.480 these claims that, like public disorder, drug use, all this stuff, 2:26:59.520 --> 2:27:03.400 overdose deaths have gotten worse since one ten. There's no 2:27:03.520 --> 2:27:06.320 evidence that that's the case, right, And there was in 2:27:06.400 --> 2:27:09.560 fact a study into this by New York University that 2:27:09.640 --> 2:27:13.400 found no evidence of an association between decriminalization and fatal 2:27:13.480 --> 2:27:16.640 overdose rates in Oregon and Washington. And I want to 2:27:16.640 --> 2:27:20.240 read a couple of quotes from that study. So, first off, quote, 2:27:20.320 --> 2:27:22.880 publicly available calls for service data were used to compare 2:27:22.959 --> 2:27:26.840 Portland's use of the nine to one one system to Boise, Idaho, Sacramento, California, 2:27:26.920 --> 2:27:30.440 and Seattle, Washington, before and after one ten. This was 2:27:30.600 --> 2:27:33.959 between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty two. Public initiated calls 2:27:34.000 --> 2:27:36.640 for service did not change after BM one ten was 2:27:36.720 --> 2:27:39.080 enacted in Portland. Portland's nine one one calls for service 2:27:39.160 --> 2:27:42.240 data align with comparison cities for property, disorderly and vice 2:27:42.280 --> 2:27:46.440 offenses with similar seasonally fluctuations. So, for one thing, what 2:27:46.560 --> 2:27:48.480 you'll notice is that a lot of the articles about 2:27:48.520 --> 2:27:50.760 one ten started to hit both when we would have 2:27:51.120 --> 2:27:53.160 winter weather come in and summer weather come in. Both 2:27:53.200 --> 2:27:55.960 of those lead the surges in overdoses and drug use. 2:27:56.040 --> 2:27:58.680 Because the weather's shitty, right, people have less to do, 2:27:58.840 --> 2:28:01.640 less options, and actually, if you're living outside it's one 2:28:01.720 --> 2:28:04.920 hundred during the day or it's twelve, maybe you want 2:28:04.959 --> 2:28:08.600 to do drugs more because you're uncomfortable. Right. Yeah, So 2:28:09.160 --> 2:28:12.800 again I think that it's important. There's this study from 2:28:12.840 --> 2:28:15.840 New York University on one ten and you know, it's 2:28:15.959 --> 2:28:18.280 lack of impact on this stuff. That shouldn't be the 2:28:18.320 --> 2:28:20.400 final word on this. I'm certain there will be more studies, 2:28:20.680 --> 2:28:22.840 but that is a word on this, and they simply 2:28:22.959 --> 2:28:23.640 have no data. 2:28:23.920 --> 2:28:25.160 Well, on the other side of things. 2:28:24.959 --> 2:28:27.640 You know, there's another study as well. I mean, you know, 2:28:27.760 --> 2:28:31.600 there's a study out of Portland State University and it's interesting. 2:28:31.640 --> 2:28:34.040 It was a follow up study. The full report has 2:28:34.080 --> 2:28:36.200 not been released yet, but they did release some of 2:28:36.280 --> 2:28:40.560 their key findings and it was in the first year 2:28:41.040 --> 2:28:46.000 PSU met with officers and interviewed them about their perceptions 2:28:46.040 --> 2:28:47.800 of one ten and how it was going. As you 2:28:47.879 --> 2:28:50.200 might imagine, officers didn't think it was going well and 2:28:50.280 --> 2:28:53.760 they said, oh, well, violent crime has increased and property 2:28:53.800 --> 2:28:57.000 crime is increased in overdoses are increased in all because 2:28:57.000 --> 2:28:59.560 of one ten. And what this report found is that 2:28:59.800 --> 2:29:02.480 is not true. There was an uptick and property crime, 2:29:02.560 --> 2:29:05.360 but we cannot say that that has been a result 2:29:05.440 --> 2:29:08.600 of one ten for years. You need a lot of 2:29:08.720 --> 2:29:11.320 data in order to look at that. And so, you know, 2:29:11.680 --> 2:29:13.920 this idea, and I mean, the ultimate finding of that 2:29:14.000 --> 2:29:17.000 study was that it is too early to recriminalize. It 2:29:17.360 --> 2:29:19.680 based on the data, it is too early to recriminalize. 2:29:19.720 --> 2:29:24.720 And so but again, you know, I think that instead 2:29:24.840 --> 2:29:27.960 what we are relying on is people's fear and what 2:29:28.120 --> 2:29:30.959 people see in the street. And you know, I think 2:29:31.000 --> 2:29:33.600 it's also this idea. I mean, the reason we are 2:29:33.640 --> 2:29:36.080 having this discussion, in my opinion, is two things. One 2:29:36.680 --> 2:29:39.880 is public use, right, individuals using the street. It's in 2:29:39.959 --> 2:29:42.600 people's faces. Nobody really cares when someone is in the 2:29:42.640 --> 2:29:44.960 warmth of their own home using fentanyl. It's when they're 2:29:44.959 --> 2:29:45.440 on the street. 2:29:45.879 --> 2:29:48.040 Or I should note when someone's in the White House 2:29:48.120 --> 2:29:50.279 using fentanyl, because it just came out that the President 2:29:50.400 --> 2:29:53.080 and high staff were prescribed fentanyl and ketamine in the 2:29:53.120 --> 2:29:54.520 White House when Trump was in office. 2:29:54.600 --> 2:29:58.680 So yeah, absolutely, but no one really cares about that. 2:29:58.760 --> 2:30:01.200 It's when it's in your face that people care. And 2:30:01.440 --> 2:30:05.320 the other one is the perception that crime is. You 2:30:05.400 --> 2:30:08.320 know that again, a lot of crime is caused by 2:30:08.400 --> 2:30:11.320 drug use, right, there is an underlying association there. But 2:30:11.640 --> 2:30:15.240 the idea of criminalizing drugs because of that is the 2:30:15.400 --> 2:30:19.520 idea that you can somehow arrest somebody, compel them into 2:30:19.600 --> 2:30:21.360 treatment and therefore prevent crimes. 2:30:21.640 --> 2:30:21.840 Yeah. 2:30:22.520 --> 2:30:24.840 I mean that's like the pre cog the sci fi 2:30:25.040 --> 2:30:27.800 sort of things. It's it is a backward system. 2:30:28.000 --> 2:30:30.360 No, and we actually know what will stop the drug 2:30:30.440 --> 2:30:33.600 related crimes, which are mostly theft, right, And one of 2:30:33.640 --> 2:30:35.240 the things that will and they've seen this, I believe 2:30:35.280 --> 2:30:38.320 it's the Netherlands that if you're a heroin addict, the 2:30:38.400 --> 2:30:40.680 government will give you free heroin. You have to take 2:30:40.760 --> 2:30:43.119 it at a center like you go in, you sign 2:30:43.160 --> 2:30:45.240 a thing and you get your dose and you take 2:30:45.280 --> 2:30:49.000 it there. That saves them money based on doing nothing, 2:30:49.040 --> 2:30:51.720 because when they do nothing, people break into houses and cars, 2:30:51.800 --> 2:30:55.480 et cetera, and boats because it's the Netherlands in order 2:30:55.600 --> 2:30:58.200 to steal shits so that they can not get dope sick, 2:30:58.400 --> 2:31:00.879 and just giving the dope to them winds up costing 2:31:00.920 --> 2:31:02.080 a lot less per addict. 2:31:02.320 --> 2:31:05.400 Well, the other thing that gets people clean or that 2:31:05.520 --> 2:31:08.920 stops people from committing crimes is housing, is providing them 2:31:08.920 --> 2:31:11.560 a roof over their head. I mean, when people are 2:31:12.520 --> 2:31:14.560 even if they're not on the street, if they are 2:31:14.640 --> 2:31:17.440 housing and stable, they're trying to make a living and 2:31:17.520 --> 2:31:19.600 it is not easy to do so with whether it's 2:31:19.640 --> 2:31:23.720 a felony record or you're you know, your upbringing or 2:31:24.120 --> 2:31:27.480 whatever reason has held you back. If they have housing. 2:31:27.959 --> 2:31:31.440 I mean, there are numerous studies that show that when 2:31:31.480 --> 2:31:35.320 you put somebody in housing, their likelihood of using drugs drops, 2:31:35.360 --> 2:31:39.320 their likelihood of committing crimes drops. And yet we are 2:31:39.440 --> 2:31:45.680 focused on this recriminalization rather than trying to house these individuals. 2:31:45.959 --> 2:31:48.560 Yeah, and it's you know, when you talk about this, 2:31:48.600 --> 2:31:52.000 when you talk about decriminalization in Oregon's context, there's a 2:31:52.000 --> 2:31:55.800 good reason for this. People talk about Portugal, Portugal, Spain 2:31:55.920 --> 2:31:58.720 also did this, both Portugal and Spain, and I believe 2:31:58.760 --> 2:32:03.880 Portugal's first decriminalized simple possession and use quite a while ago. 2:32:03.920 --> 2:32:05.800 It's been that way in Portugal for I think like 2:32:05.920 --> 2:32:08.440 twenty years. Like they have a significant amount of data 2:32:08.520 --> 2:32:12.080 on it right, and Oregonians, the people who were pushing 2:32:12.160 --> 2:32:15.000 for one ten, cited it specifically as like a reason 2:32:15.040 --> 2:32:17.560 why this was worthwhile. There was recently, I think last year, 2:32:18.000 --> 2:32:20.560 some state officials and whatnot went to Portugal to look 2:32:20.600 --> 2:32:22.720 into the system, and so as a result, you've seen 2:32:22.800 --> 2:32:26.160 like attacks on the Portuguese drug system, including there was 2:32:26.200 --> 2:32:28.880 a recent Washington Post article about how Portugal is starting 2:32:28.920 --> 2:32:31.640 to regret it, They're going to recriminalize maybe, And the 2:32:31.680 --> 2:32:34.480 reality of the situation is that there was has been 2:32:34.520 --> 2:32:37.360 a recent surge in illicit drug use in Portugal from 2:32:37.480 --> 2:32:39.600 seven point eight percent in two thousand and one to 2:32:39.760 --> 2:32:42.800 twelve point eight percent in twenty twenty two. That is 2:32:42.920 --> 2:32:46.120 an increase. It's still below the average in most of 2:32:46.200 --> 2:32:49.320 Western Europe. It's lower than France and Italy. I believe 2:32:49.360 --> 2:32:51.920 it's lower than the UK, It's lower than like most 2:32:52.160 --> 2:32:55.160 of Western Europe. And I just kind of pointing out 2:32:55.200 --> 2:32:57.600 the fact that Portugal is also dealing with an increase 2:32:57.640 --> 2:33:00.440 in drug use. Again, saying that that's because of the 2:33:00.520 --> 2:33:04.360 culture of decriminalization seems silly when there have been corresponding 2:33:04.400 --> 2:33:07.879 surges everywhere where it's illegal. But beyond that, it ignores 2:33:07.959 --> 2:33:11.320 the fact that there have been really significant benefits that 2:33:11.480 --> 2:33:14.600 we do know our benefits of decriminalization because of how 2:33:14.720 --> 2:33:17.080 long we've been looking at it. From two thousand to 2:33:17.120 --> 2:33:19.959 two thousand and eight, prison populations in Portugal fell by 2:33:19.959 --> 2:33:24.040 almost seventeen percent. Overdose rates dropped because in part they 2:33:24.120 --> 2:33:28.520 funded rehabilitation, which Oregon still has not really done. There 2:33:28.680 --> 2:33:31.440 was no surge in use, and in fact less people 2:33:31.760 --> 2:33:35.600 seem to die when the system changed, right. What has 2:33:35.720 --> 2:33:39.280 increased is some drug de related debris. Particularly most of 2:33:39.360 --> 2:33:41.240 the surges have been in the last literally the last 2:33:41.280 --> 2:33:43.560 couple of years, which again makes me think it is 2:33:43.640 --> 2:33:45.560 tied to the global trends that have made a lot 2:33:45.600 --> 2:33:48.600 of people more miserable and living in a more difficult 2:33:48.640 --> 2:33:52.119 situation and at more risk of drug addiction. What happens 2:33:52.160 --> 2:33:57.280 in Portugal politically hard to say, but overall, decriminalization we 2:33:57.360 --> 2:33:59.520 have a lot of data for seems to have largely 2:33:59.720 --> 2:34:00.560 been success. 2:34:01.400 --> 2:34:02.400 And if that's kind of. 2:34:02.400 --> 2:34:05.120 What we were to see in Oregon with decriminalization, I 2:34:05.160 --> 2:34:08.279 would be happy, even if there's more mess on the streets, 2:34:08.320 --> 2:34:10.440 although I don't think that that's inevitable. And this gets 2:34:10.520 --> 2:34:12.600 us to what I think is kind of the most 2:34:12.680 --> 2:34:15.880 dangerous point that the opposition, the people who want to 2:34:15.879 --> 2:34:18.720 recriminalize make, And it's dangerous because it seems like they 2:34:18.760 --> 2:34:22.000 have a good point, which is people shouldn't be people 2:34:22.000 --> 2:34:24.240 with families, just regular people should not have to see 2:34:24.320 --> 2:34:26.960 folks using hard drugs on the street as they walk 2:34:27.000 --> 2:34:30.320 around town. And I agree it is not reasonable to 2:34:30.440 --> 2:34:33.039 expect people to walk with their kids to school past 2:34:33.200 --> 2:34:36.880 somebody shooting up heroin or smoking crack. It's fine, and 2:34:38.120 --> 2:34:41.280 you're not like a some sort of like nark or 2:34:41.320 --> 2:34:43.160 party pooper if you don't want your kids to see that. 2:34:43.680 --> 2:34:46.880 But that's already illegal, because it's like it's illegal to 2:34:47.000 --> 2:34:49.920 drink a beer on the street in Portland. The problem 2:34:50.040 --> 2:34:52.520 is not that the cops can't do anything about it, 2:34:52.600 --> 2:34:55.840 it's that, again they're choosing not to do anything about it. 2:34:56.360 --> 2:34:59.160 Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean, and again it is the 2:34:59.280 --> 2:35:02.320 issue of we have people living on the streets, right, 2:35:02.360 --> 2:35:05.800 I mean, it is I completely agree that people shouldn't 2:35:05.840 --> 2:35:08.600 have to walk past that, but maybe that is an 2:35:08.720 --> 2:35:12.200 opportunity to talk to their child about the need to 2:35:12.400 --> 2:35:14.920 make sure that people have a safe place to live. 2:35:15.400 --> 2:35:18.960 And also, I mean it's also you know, if we 2:35:19.160 --> 2:35:22.800 had safe use locations, you wouldn't see nearly as much 2:35:22.840 --> 2:35:25.840 of that. And frankly, the system would have a better 2:35:26.040 --> 2:35:30.680 argument for punishing public use if we had safe use 2:35:30.720 --> 2:35:34.240 areas because we have put so many people on the street. Yes, 2:35:34.640 --> 2:35:37.760 somebody who has no place to be and is desperate 2:35:37.840 --> 2:35:40.080 and it is addicted using it a place where you 2:35:40.160 --> 2:35:43.360 can see them is understandable. Somebody who has options for 2:35:43.520 --> 2:35:45.160 places to be and is choosing to do it in 2:35:45.200 --> 2:35:47.600 front of people, that's a bit of a different case. 2:35:47.760 --> 2:35:51.480 And again I also want to just really, because I've 2:35:51.560 --> 2:35:55.160 encountered this in arguments about one ten with people. It 2:35:55.320 --> 2:35:57.360 did not make it legal to do drugs in public. 2:35:57.720 --> 2:36:01.640 That remains illegal. It's illegal to drink beer in public. Absolutely, Yeah, 2:36:01.920 --> 2:36:05.200 public use is I mean, but again, these are sort 2:36:05.200 --> 2:36:09.200 of the narratives that are being perpetuated by and a 2:36:09.280 --> 2:36:13.680 lot of it is law enforcement. And honestly, my take 2:36:13.760 --> 2:36:17.480 on it is that law enforcement doesn't really care about 2:36:17.560 --> 2:36:19.160 recriminalizing possession. 2:36:19.440 --> 2:36:19.800 They don't. 2:36:20.040 --> 2:36:23.680 What they want is they want the ability to search people. 2:36:24.240 --> 2:36:28.200 What that gives them is it gives them the right 2:36:28.360 --> 2:36:31.680 to say, hey, I have problem cause to believe that 2:36:31.840 --> 2:36:34.040 you have drugs on you therefore I'm gonna search you, 2:36:34.520 --> 2:36:37.920 I'm gonna search your car, I'm going to search your house. Right, 2:36:38.720 --> 2:36:41.840 it gives them that ability, and they, you know, many 2:36:41.920 --> 2:36:44.960 of them, will be very forthright about that. And the 2:36:45.240 --> 2:36:49.960 biggest infringements on our personal privacy, on our Fourth Amendment rights, 2:36:50.000 --> 2:36:54.520 on our protected privacy interest has always been drugs. It 2:36:54.640 --> 2:36:59.680 has always been the criminalization of drugs has eroded our 2:36:59.760 --> 2:37:03.800 privacy interests. And and that is that's what's really at 2:37:03.879 --> 2:37:06.640 play here because I don't I don't think the officers 2:37:07.360 --> 2:37:10.560 I mean, and this is again not a monolith I'm saying, 2:37:10.640 --> 2:37:15.360 I don't think in general law enforcement really is that 2:37:15.920 --> 2:37:22.240 concerned with, you know, getting individuals off the street and 2:37:22.400 --> 2:37:25.040 into treatment. If that were the case, we would have 2:37:25.120 --> 2:37:28.280 seen far more of those e citations, you know, we 2:37:28.360 --> 2:37:31.560 would see the officers doing there. There is a statute 2:37:31.600 --> 2:37:34.360 that allows them to transport people to detox, right, we 2:37:34.520 --> 2:37:37.480 don't see that that often because really, what is that 2:37:37.680 --> 2:37:41.120 issue here is the ability to search people based on 2:37:41.240 --> 2:37:43.160 probable cause that they possess drugs. 2:37:43.520 --> 2:37:46.400 Yeah, yeah, and we will we will talk about what 2:37:46.600 --> 2:37:49.800 people can do if they want to stop the recriminalization 2:37:49.879 --> 2:37:50.720 of drugs in Oregon. 2:37:51.160 --> 2:38:06.039 But first, here's some more ads. We're back, So grant. 2:38:05.840 --> 2:38:07.960 Kind of the question I am left with at the 2:38:08.080 --> 2:38:11.280 end of this here is what do we do to 2:38:11.440 --> 2:38:12.560 fight back against this? 2:38:12.879 --> 2:38:15.200 What is actually what is go? What are the options 2:38:15.240 --> 2:38:15.600 people have? 2:38:15.720 --> 2:38:17.760 Obviously the thing that first occurs to me that is 2:38:17.840 --> 2:38:21.080 most successible is make a fuss to your elected leaders 2:38:21.160 --> 2:38:23.000 so you know that this is something you'll think about 2:38:23.160 --> 2:38:24.240 come vote in season. 2:38:24.680 --> 2:38:26.680 But first off, how would people do that? 2:38:26.959 --> 2:38:29.800 I guess yeah, I mean, you know, figure out who 2:38:29.840 --> 2:38:33.760 your legislator is, you know, write to them, call them, 2:38:34.040 --> 2:38:37.520 let them know that you know you want to see, 2:38:38.360 --> 2:38:40.960 you know, realistic fixes to this. You want to see 2:38:41.080 --> 2:38:45.800 investment in public health, in outreach through pure navigators and 2:38:45.879 --> 2:38:49.440 case managers that you don't want to see us return 2:38:49.600 --> 2:38:52.080 to the same war on drugs that has failed. 2:38:52.560 --> 2:38:54.720 Yeah, it's it's hard, I will say if you're looking 2:38:54.760 --> 2:38:57.400 to do research outside of like a lot of a 2:38:57.480 --> 2:38:59.600 lot of local news, this is a hard time for 2:38:59.680 --> 2:39:02.080 local news. Well, good local reporting gets done in a 2:39:02.160 --> 2:39:05.640 number of places, including Oregon. Also, a lot of smaller 2:39:05.760 --> 2:39:09.320 local news agencies are very much in the pocket of 2:39:09.400 --> 2:39:10.920 the people who helped to fund them, which is some 2:39:11.000 --> 2:39:13.160 of the people funding the attempt to repeal. So if 2:39:13.520 --> 2:39:16.199 one of the better articles that has been written recently 2:39:16.920 --> 2:39:19.640 was in the New Yorker, it's great. Yeah, there's a 2:39:19.840 --> 2:39:21.840 I'm pulling it up right now. There's a great New 2:39:21.920 --> 2:39:25.440 Yorker piece, a New Drug War in Oregon, that was 2:39:25.480 --> 2:39:30.160 published just this month, probably the best major outlet piece 2:39:30.360 --> 2:39:33.760 I've seen on it, And yeah, it's It talks a 2:39:33.800 --> 2:39:36.959 lot about the STAB and Wagon, which is a kind 2:39:37.000 --> 2:39:40.519 of independent although they've now should at some point theoretically 2:39:40.560 --> 2:39:42.720 be getting a significant amount of funding, but like they 2:39:42.800 --> 2:39:47.120 provide drug users not just with naloxone or narcan, but 2:39:47.280 --> 2:39:50.520 with safe use materials like syringes and stuff that are clean. 2:39:51.360 --> 2:39:53.120 This is down in the south of Oregon, in a 2:39:53.160 --> 2:39:56.080 place called Medford, which has both one of Oregon's worst 2:39:56.120 --> 2:39:58.560 drug problems and also is much more conservative area. So 2:39:58.600 --> 2:40:02.520 obviously these people are very controversial, and I will say, 2:40:02.720 --> 2:40:04.600 you know, one of the things this article does well 2:40:04.760 --> 2:40:07.400 is they get at, even within people who are supportive 2:40:07.400 --> 2:40:11.080 of one ten, the conflict between kind of traditional addiction 2:40:11.200 --> 2:40:15.480 recovery resources and organizations and some of these often these 2:40:15.560 --> 2:40:18.560 new organizations are either started by or run by people 2:40:18.600 --> 2:40:22.600 who have or do currently deal with addiction, and I 2:40:22.720 --> 2:40:25.800 think covering that conflict is valuable. There's some stuff that 2:40:25.879 --> 2:40:28.480 frustrates me about it, and this is I think there's 2:40:28.520 --> 2:40:31.160 a lot of negativity towards stab and Wagon and its 2:40:31.200 --> 2:40:33.520 founder that's unfair. I also think some of the things 2:40:33.560 --> 2:40:36.600 that she has said about traditional addiction recovery resources are 2:40:36.640 --> 2:40:39.440 very unfair from her point of view. And I think 2:40:39.760 --> 2:40:43.080 when I look at the problem, the only comprehensive solution 2:40:43.480 --> 2:40:46.920 is multiple options for different kinds of people. Because I 2:40:47.080 --> 2:40:48.800 know a lot of people who have dealt with addiction 2:40:48.920 --> 2:40:51.240 and recovered and no two of them did it the 2:40:51.280 --> 2:40:51.760 same way. 2:40:52.160 --> 2:40:54.400 Yeah, no, absolutely, And I mean I think that you know, 2:40:54.800 --> 2:40:57.879 both of those are necessary, right harm. What I always 2:40:57.879 --> 2:41:01.480 say is that the beauty of armyedduction is that not 2:41:01.720 --> 2:41:04.640 only does it ensure that somebody survives long enough to 2:41:04.720 --> 2:41:10.000 make it to recovery, but it also builds a relationship 2:41:10.080 --> 2:41:12.360 with that person. It builds a relationship of trust so 2:41:12.440 --> 2:41:15.560 that you can have a conversation about the need for recovery. 2:41:15.920 --> 2:41:18.800 You know, as a public defender, I don't get the 2:41:18.879 --> 2:41:22.280 benefit of the prosecutor or the court to or probation 2:41:22.560 --> 2:41:25.360 to wield power and to make my client do what 2:41:26.080 --> 2:41:29.080 they should do. Because I'm holding power over them. I 2:41:29.520 --> 2:41:31.920 have to build trust, right, I have to have a 2:41:32.000 --> 2:41:34.400 relationship of trust with them, and I have to find 2:41:34.440 --> 2:41:38.720 out what motivates that individual and and try to utilize 2:41:38.800 --> 2:41:42.680 that to encourage positive steps. Right, And that's true of 2:41:42.720 --> 2:41:45.000 our our case managers and social workers that work with us. 2:41:45.560 --> 2:41:48.280 And that's that's what the system doesn't have, right. The 2:41:48.360 --> 2:41:52.400 system is just trying to use the threat of incarceration 2:41:53.120 --> 2:41:57.520 in order to get individuals who are not ready for 2:41:57.680 --> 2:42:01.080 recovery to engage in recovery, and that that's detrimental. I mean, 2:42:01.160 --> 2:42:05.199 we need both harm reduction and we need traditional treatment. 2:42:05.240 --> 2:42:08.360 We need culturally competent treatment. You know, there needs to 2:42:08.400 --> 2:42:10.840 be wrap around services. And that's one of my concerns 2:42:10.879 --> 2:42:14.800 here is that you know, we know that the criminal 2:42:14.879 --> 2:42:19.280 legal system has worked. One ten past, we had a 2:42:19.959 --> 2:42:24.080 drug court that dealt with low level possession and its 2:42:24.160 --> 2:42:28.880 graduation rate was around seventeen percent, so seventeen percent to people, 2:42:28.920 --> 2:42:32.080 and graduation meant ninety days of sobriety. And that was 2:42:32.160 --> 2:42:35.920 seventeen percent of people. That other eighty three percent if 2:42:35.920 --> 2:42:38.200 they fail out a program. Again, the only tool the 2:42:38.240 --> 2:42:40.840 system has is jail, and so all they did was 2:42:40.959 --> 2:42:44.279 did not hook them up with services and instead eventually 2:42:44.440 --> 2:42:48.440 punish them for not being ready for treatment, and that 2:42:48.680 --> 2:42:50.720 is not how we get people into recovery. 2:42:51.160 --> 2:42:53.960 Yeah, I think that that's a really good point when 2:42:54.000 --> 2:42:56.840 I when I talk about both how people can help 2:42:56.959 --> 2:42:59.119 if a loved one is starting to do with drug 2:42:59.160 --> 2:43:02.400 addiction and when someone if someone you love is getting 2:43:02.400 --> 2:43:04.960 into a cult or getting pulled into conspiracy theories, it's 2:43:05.000 --> 2:43:06.800 actually the same advice. I had a friend come to 2:43:06.879 --> 2:43:09.680 me recently because I loved one of theirs was starting 2:43:09.760 --> 2:43:15.480 to kind of talk about some really concerning conspiracy theory stuff, right, 2:43:16.240 --> 2:43:18.320 and they were like, what do I say against this? 2:43:18.360 --> 2:43:21.040 How do I argue against it? And my answer was like, well, 2:43:21.080 --> 2:43:24.120 you don't really You make it clear, like, hey, I 2:43:24.160 --> 2:43:27.120 don't really believe this, I don't find this compelling, but 2:43:27.320 --> 2:43:29.520 like you know, I love you and I'm always here 2:43:29.560 --> 2:43:31.160 to listen if you want to talk about this kind 2:43:31.160 --> 2:43:33.200 of stuff or you want to talk about whatever. And 2:43:33.879 --> 2:43:36.040 that is the same if someone's starting to get pulled 2:43:36.080 --> 2:43:38.560 into a cult or if they're dealing with drugs, because, 2:43:38.800 --> 2:43:42.080 as you noted, if they have a pathway out, and 2:43:42.160 --> 2:43:43.680 they're not going to have to It's not this kind 2:43:43.680 --> 2:43:45.120 of thing where you've been yelling at them and may 2:43:45.200 --> 2:43:46.760 and then they they have to come to you with 2:43:46.840 --> 2:43:49.199 their head tail between their legs and like I was wrong, 2:43:49.320 --> 2:43:52.360 I fucked up. That's a barrier. If like, well, this 2:43:52.680 --> 2:43:55.320 this person cares about me and is always going to 2:43:55.360 --> 2:43:58.640 be like willing to you know, talk with me like 2:43:58.879 --> 2:44:01.680 no matter what, well, then that's less of a barrier. 2:44:01.800 --> 2:44:02.200 Then you're not. 2:44:02.440 --> 2:44:04.680 You haven't built a wall that they have to get through. 2:44:04.800 --> 2:44:07.000 They can just come to you when they're like I 2:44:07.160 --> 2:44:10.480 need help exactly. I mean, it's based in relationships, and 2:44:10.840 --> 2:44:12.960 I mean that's that's one of the issues, right, is 2:44:13.000 --> 2:44:18.119 that too many people, not just Importland but everywhere, see 2:44:18.520 --> 2:44:22.040 individuals on the street and assume the worst and see 2:44:22.080 --> 2:44:23.800 them as the other. They don't see them as part 2:44:23.840 --> 2:44:27.440 of the community, and so they're more than fine with 2:44:27.720 --> 2:44:30.880 a system locking them up because of their addiction. And 2:44:31.560 --> 2:44:34.600 you know, we all need to recognize that, you know 2:44:35.320 --> 2:44:38.920 it that falling into that lifestyle. You know, whether whether 2:44:39.040 --> 2:44:42.240 it is because of you know, where you were raised, 2:44:42.360 --> 2:44:45.560 how you were raised, you know, whether you got addicted 2:44:45.600 --> 2:44:48.600 to pills because your doctor prescribed them. There's a lot 2:44:48.680 --> 2:44:50.760 of reasons, whether you had childhood trauma, there's a lot 2:44:50.800 --> 2:44:54.880 of reasons why people get an addiction. And you know, 2:44:55.080 --> 2:44:59.959 to simply assume that somebody, because they're addicted to drugs 2:45:00.360 --> 2:45:04.960 is a criminal, a bad person, you know, it is 2:45:05.040 --> 2:45:08.680 making them the other. And it's so much easier to 2:45:08.760 --> 2:45:10.879 be punitive when you're just seeing. 2:45:10.680 --> 2:45:11.640 That person as the other. 2:45:11.920 --> 2:45:14.120 Yeah, and I did want to note if people are 2:45:14.200 --> 2:45:17.600 looking for resources online both about one ten and how 2:45:17.640 --> 2:45:20.119 they can help in the fight to stop it from 2:45:20.160 --> 2:45:24.240 getting repealed, you can go to h JR, the Health 2:45:24.440 --> 2:45:28.760 Justice Recovery Alliance. They have you can sign up to 2:45:29.000 --> 2:45:32.960 get information from them. They have community resources, they have 2:45:33.120 --> 2:45:35.400 like updates on what's going on. I think you can 2:45:35.480 --> 2:45:38.960 find through them a way to like automatically kind of 2:45:39.040 --> 2:45:41.240 send a form message. 2:45:40.879 --> 2:45:42.000 To your elected leaders. 2:45:42.480 --> 2:45:45.959 So just google Health Justice Recovery Alliance Oregon or Health 2:45:46.120 --> 2:45:49.760 Justice Recovery Alliance one ten and that will take you there. 2:45:49.879 --> 2:45:52.680 They've got a lot of stuff collected there, both resources 2:45:52.720 --> 2:45:56.440 if you're having arguments with people about this and information 2:45:56.560 --> 2:45:59.000 on how you can help at least try to do something. 2:45:59.160 --> 2:46:01.200 Yeah, and I will say all so the ACLU has 2:46:01.280 --> 2:46:03.720 been very active in this as well, and you know, 2:46:03.800 --> 2:46:06.640 they have an action plan on their website that you know, 2:46:06.800 --> 2:46:08.920 tells you some of the things that you can do 2:46:09.200 --> 2:46:11.720 in this and and you know, like I said, I mean, 2:46:11.760 --> 2:46:16.000 I I think obviously contacting your legislators where we haven't 2:46:16.000 --> 2:46:19.560 even started the legislation or the legislative session yet, and 2:46:19.720 --> 2:46:22.720 so there is still room to change this and to 2:46:22.879 --> 2:46:27.160 at least make it less bad, which you know it's 2:46:27.360 --> 2:46:30.120 these days sometimes it feels like less bad is the 2:46:30.520 --> 2:46:32.040 is the goal that we need to strive for. 2:46:32.360 --> 2:46:33.200 It's harm reduction. 2:46:33.360 --> 2:46:36.119 Again, That's how I tend to look at the legislative 2:46:36.160 --> 2:46:39.240 side of things. Well, everybody that's going to do it 2:46:39.400 --> 2:46:41.879 for us here at it could happen here, Grant, thank 2:46:41.920 --> 2:46:43.600 you so much. Should you have anything you wanted to 2:46:43.760 --> 2:46:46.240 plug your direct listeners towards before we roll out here? 2:46:46.920 --> 2:46:50.200 I mean, I think again, it's just you know, go 2:46:50.360 --> 2:46:55.240 to the ACLU website, go to hha's website, get involved. 2:46:55.600 --> 2:46:59.200 But more than just that, no matter what happens during 2:46:59.240 --> 2:47:03.200 this legislative session, you know, remember that all of these 2:47:03.240 --> 2:47:07.840 folks on the street are people, and they need assistance, 2:47:08.080 --> 2:47:12.080 and you know, and they need help and continue, or 2:47:12.280 --> 2:47:18.440 consider you know, contributing to a recovery organization, or volunteering 2:47:18.600 --> 2:47:21.320 to go out into the community. You know, if you 2:47:21.480 --> 2:47:25.480 have lived experience with addiction, consider becoming a peer. It 2:47:25.920 --> 2:47:29.560 is so impactful to have individuals who have struggled with 2:47:29.600 --> 2:47:33.439 substance use go out in the community and engage individuals 2:47:33.480 --> 2:47:36.120 who are currently struggling with it. And that is the 2:47:36.240 --> 2:47:38.360 best trust building that it's the best way to get 2:47:38.400 --> 2:47:41.199 people into recovery, not through handcuffs in jails. 2:47:41.640 --> 2:47:44.840 Thank you very much, Grant. I couldn't agree more. All Right, everybody, 2:47:45.400 --> 2:47:48.200 that's it for us today. We'll be back tomorrow with 2:47:48.640 --> 2:47:50.120 more of it happening here. 2:48:03.520 --> 2:48:06.320 Welcome to it could happen here on Garrison Davis. 2:48:07.040 --> 2:48:07.200 Now. 2:48:07.400 --> 2:48:10.000 Last week I spent a few days in Las Vegas 2:48:10.200 --> 2:48:14.160 for the Consumer Electronics Showcase. Most of the time of 2:48:14.200 --> 2:48:16.640 the convention, I was just walking around the show floor 2:48:17.040 --> 2:48:22.240 looking at various new types of surveillance equipment, AI products, 2:48:22.320 --> 2:48:26.400 and various other bullshit that was being pedled to many 2:48:26.480 --> 2:48:29.840 industry attendees of CEES. But I was also able to 2:48:29.879 --> 2:48:32.240 go to a few panels. Now, panels are really interesting 2:48:32.280 --> 2:48:34.560 because you get to hear people who are working inside 2:48:34.560 --> 2:48:37.520 industries talk about stuff that they don't usually really publicly 2:48:37.560 --> 2:48:40.120 talk about very much. And on the first day of 2:48:40.160 --> 2:48:43.080 the convention, I went to a panel about drone technology. 2:48:44.080 --> 2:48:46.879 Half of the panel was about how Walmart is launching 2:48:47.000 --> 2:48:51.560 new delivery drones in Dallas, Texas. The other half was 2:48:51.640 --> 2:48:54.920 about police drones. And that's what we're going to be 2:48:55.000 --> 2:48:58.279 talking about here today, how the police are using drones, 2:48:58.640 --> 2:49:01.760 why they're using drones, and how you can probably expect 2:49:01.879 --> 2:49:03.920 to be seeing a lot more drones up in the 2:49:03.959 --> 2:49:08.200 sky piloted by either an AI or a police officer. 2:49:09.200 --> 2:49:14.160 So let's get started. Cheula Vista is the southernmost kind 2:49:14.160 --> 2:49:17.520 of medium sized city in California, with the population of 2:49:17.560 --> 2:49:21.040 two hundred and seventy eight thousand people. Cheulavista has a 2:49:21.080 --> 2:49:24.000 police force of two hundred and eighty nine sworn officers, 2:49:24.320 --> 2:49:27.920 as well as one hundred and twenty civilian employees. On 2:49:28.040 --> 2:49:31.360 top of their nearly three hundred officers, they operate a 2:49:31.520 --> 2:49:34.360 drone fleet ten hours a day, seven days a week, 2:49:34.720 --> 2:49:38.840 launching high deff camera mounted drones from four locations throughout 2:49:38.920 --> 2:49:42.039 their small city. I'm going to quote from an article 2:49:42.120 --> 2:49:45.640 from the MIT Technology Review, which did a deep dive 2:49:45.840 --> 2:49:49.200 onto Cheulavista's police drones back in February of twenty twenty three. 2:49:49.760 --> 2:49:50.080 Quote. 2:49:50.680 --> 2:49:53.720 Cheulavista uses these drones to extend the power of its 2:49:53.800 --> 2:49:57.000 workforce in a number of ways. For example, if only 2:49:57.080 --> 2:49:59.800 one officer is available when two calls come in, one 2:50:00.080 --> 2:50:03.360 or an armed suspect and another for shoplifting, an officer 2:50:03.440 --> 2:50:07.720 will respond to the first one. But now cvpd's Public 2:50:07.800 --> 2:50:12.520 Information Officer, Sergeant Anthony Molina, says that dispatchers can send 2:50:12.560 --> 2:50:17.560 a drone to surreptitiously trail the suspected shoplifter quote, and 2:50:17.800 --> 2:50:20.040 this really gets at the heart of how these drones 2:50:20.040 --> 2:50:23.280 are going to get used. They exist to funnel more 2:50:23.440 --> 2:50:26.760 people into the criminal justice system. Instead of having to 2:50:26.879 --> 2:50:29.640 choose between two calls, one of which actually could relate 2:50:29.720 --> 2:50:32.360 to saving someone's life, the other just a petty crime, 2:50:32.920 --> 2:50:35.560 now the police can easily follow someone doing a petty 2:50:35.600 --> 2:50:38.320 crime while responding to other calls and eventually catch up. 2:50:38.800 --> 2:50:41.199 It's a way to just expand the amount of people 2:50:41.240 --> 2:50:45.119 that can be arrested and thrown into jail. Nowadays, drones 2:50:45.160 --> 2:50:46.279 are pretty common. 2:50:46.080 --> 2:50:46.960 Tools for police. 2:50:47.280 --> 2:50:51.360 Over one thy five hundred departments currently use drones, usually 2:50:51.480 --> 2:50:56.000 for special occasions though, like search and rescue, crime scene documentation, 2:50:56.600 --> 2:51:01.039 protest surveillance, and sometimes tracking suspects, but at the moment, 2:51:01.440 --> 2:51:05.080 only about a dozen police departments regularly dispatched drones in 2:51:05.160 --> 2:51:08.240 response to nine to one one calls, the first of 2:51:08.320 --> 2:51:12.000 which was Chew La Vista PD, who launched their quote 2:51:12.360 --> 2:51:17.240 drone as first Responder program back in twenty eighteen with 2:51:17.440 --> 2:51:20.920 the goal of having an unmanned aerial system or drone 2:51:21.360 --> 2:51:25.760 be proactively deployed before an officer is on scene. Now 2:51:25.920 --> 2:51:29.280 we'll hear from Chief Roxanna Kennedy of the Cheu La 2:51:29.360 --> 2:51:34.279 Vista Police Department talking on the drone technology panel at CES. 2:51:35.120 --> 2:51:38.800 We are seven miles from the Mexico border, and we 2:51:38.879 --> 2:51:41.280 have the second largest city in San Diego County. So 2:51:41.320 --> 2:51:45.120 we have about two hundred and ninety officers and we 2:51:45.240 --> 2:51:48.160 serve a community of about three hundred thousand. Because of 2:51:48.200 --> 2:51:50.320 the close proximity to the door, we have a lot 2:51:50.320 --> 2:51:51.879 of people that have traveled back and forth. 2:51:52.640 --> 2:51:57.480 We have a drone program that I'm awfully proud of. 2:51:57.879 --> 2:52:01.279 And we are responding proactive lead to calls for service 2:52:01.400 --> 2:52:02.199 in our community. 2:52:02.720 --> 2:52:04.520 And so we have drone station. 2:52:04.400 --> 2:52:07.960 From four different locations throughout our city. We have pilots 2:52:07.959 --> 2:52:10.160 in command that are on the rooftop, and then we 2:52:10.320 --> 2:52:14.480 have a operation center where we have sworn officers that 2:52:14.720 --> 2:52:16.640 are part one to seven pilots. 2:52:16.320 --> 2:52:19.480 That fly the drones. So we are responding now to 2:52:19.800 --> 2:52:22.160 calls for service on average, and. 2:52:22.680 --> 2:52:25.720 An officer on scene, a drone pendant on scene that's 2:52:25.720 --> 2:52:29.680 sharing information with our officers lights streaming that information on 2:52:29.920 --> 2:52:32.360 our cell phones or in our computers that we're seeing 2:52:32.760 --> 2:52:34.359 information about the call within. 2:52:34.320 --> 2:52:36.040 Ninety seconds on average. 2:52:36.160 --> 2:52:38.920 And so what it's doing for us in sure Vista 2:52:39.040 --> 2:52:43.840 and for our community is we are providing information rapidly, 2:52:44.040 --> 2:52:46.960 real time information to officers so that they can make 2:52:47.080 --> 2:52:50.520 better decisions so that everyone goes home safely. We say, 2:52:50.560 --> 2:52:53.880 the community safer, the officers are safer, and the subjects 2:52:53.920 --> 2:52:55.240 that we encounter are safer. 2:52:55.320 --> 2:52:56.920 So we're offly proud of what we're doing. 2:52:57.959 --> 2:53:00.600 The way police are able to deploy drone used to 2:53:00.680 --> 2:53:03.600 be a lot more limited. The use of drones is 2:53:03.680 --> 2:53:08.039 regulated by the FFA, the Federal Aviation Administration. In most cases, 2:53:08.160 --> 2:53:12.400 the FFA requires that both hobbyists and police departments only 2:53:12.520 --> 2:53:16.040 fly drones within the operator's own line of sight. But 2:53:16.160 --> 2:53:19.520 starting back in twenty nineteen, agencies and vendors could start 2:53:19.560 --> 2:53:23.279 applying for a beyond visual line of sight or BEVLOSS 2:53:23.320 --> 2:53:27.320 waiver from the FFA to fly drones remotely, allowing for 2:53:27.560 --> 2:53:32.240 much longer flights in restricted airspace. Chula Vista Pedi was 2:53:32.320 --> 2:53:35.840 the first department to get a BEVLOST waiver. The MIT 2:53:36.040 --> 2:53:39.200 Tech Review estimated last year that roughly two hundred and 2:53:39.280 --> 2:53:42.560 twenty five more departments now have one as well. 2:53:43.000 --> 2:53:43.760 Another thing that I. 2:53:43.879 --> 2:53:47.600 Always talk about because I think it's critical, is the 2:53:48.480 --> 2:53:52.960 concept of why they're using drones, what the benefit is 2:53:53.040 --> 2:53:55.640 to the community with the use of our drones. And 2:53:56.000 --> 2:53:59.360 I truly believe that when my officers can pick up 2:53:59.400 --> 2:54:02.040 their cellf up before they even respond to the call, 2:54:02.600 --> 2:54:05.199 and they can look and see the scene. 2:54:05.600 --> 2:54:07.600 What's happening where the individual is. 2:54:07.720 --> 2:54:09.720 If the person's facing in the middle of the park, 2:54:10.040 --> 2:54:12.400 there are no children around, and there are noo there's 2:54:12.480 --> 2:54:16.000 nobody that's within the reach of this individual harmy, you 2:54:16.120 --> 2:54:18.320 might not have to rush into that scene so quickly 2:54:18.879 --> 2:54:23.080 officers can d escalate, make better decisions. And I mean 2:54:23.240 --> 2:54:26.760 this is just a game changer for law enforcement and 2:54:26.959 --> 2:54:30.720 right now, you know, we were the first agent agency 2:54:30.800 --> 2:54:33.800 to be involved in the integrated Pilot program with the FAA. 2:54:34.440 --> 2:54:37.000 We're very proud of that that they trusted us enough 2:54:37.160 --> 2:54:40.920 for us to be the organization that brought forward all 2:54:41.040 --> 2:54:44.960 these these ideas that are now being utilized in law enforcements. Now. 2:54:45.000 --> 2:54:47.680 I've watched a lot of videos of police talking about 2:54:47.760 --> 2:54:51.680 why they're using drones, of drone training companies talking about 2:54:51.720 --> 2:54:54.760 why police drones are so important. In one video on 2:54:54.800 --> 2:54:58.000 their website, this guy from Skyfire Consulting was talking about 2:54:58.000 --> 2:55:00.840 how police may not have had to kill Ta Mirror 2:55:00.959 --> 2:55:04.560 Rice if they simply had a drone watching beforehand so 2:55:04.640 --> 2:55:07.600 they could see that it was a toy gun, which 2:55:07.680 --> 2:55:09.959 is a ridiculous thing to say, because in the nine 2:55:09.959 --> 2:55:12.520 one one call that jump started this entire police interaction, 2:55:12.840 --> 2:55:15.680 it was expressed that the caller thought the gun was 2:55:15.760 --> 2:55:19.960 probably a toy. And this notion that is simply if 2:55:20.040 --> 2:55:23.120 police have more ability to surveil, they'll be able to 2:55:23.560 --> 2:55:27.720 respond safer and apply less deadly force, I think is 2:55:27.800 --> 2:55:33.599 a pretty suspect premise. Now, the effectiveness of drone technology 2:55:33.680 --> 2:55:38.560 and law enforcement is challenging to verify and quantify. The 2:55:38.720 --> 2:55:42.040 MIT Tech Review cannot find any third party studies showing 2:55:42.120 --> 2:55:46.920 that drones reduce crime, even after interviewing CVPD officers as 2:55:46.959 --> 2:55:50.680 well as drone vendors and researchers quote, nor could anyone 2:55:50.720 --> 2:55:54.280 provide statistics on how many additional arrests or convictions came 2:55:54.320 --> 2:55:57.840 from using drone technology. I was able to find some 2:55:58.000 --> 2:56:02.880 data on cvpd's website talking about how many drone initiated 2:56:02.920 --> 2:56:07.920 interactions resulted in arrests, but quantifying additional arrests seems to 2:56:08.040 --> 2:56:09.000 be a little challenging. 2:56:09.520 --> 2:56:09.680 Now. 2:56:09.840 --> 2:56:13.800 If you look at Cheulavista PD's own drone responses stats, 2:56:14.360 --> 2:56:17.880 the vast majority of deployments I estimate around seventy percent 2:56:18.520 --> 2:56:20.959 are for what the director of investigations for the privacy 2:56:21.080 --> 2:56:24.720 rights group the Electronic Frontier Foundation refers to as quote 2:56:25.000 --> 2:56:28.440 crimes of poverty unquote, which he believes will be the 2:56:28.480 --> 2:56:31.840 target of most drone policing as opposed to violent crime. 2:56:32.760 --> 2:56:36.800 Nearly thirty percent of Chula Vista's drone deployments are for 2:56:37.040 --> 2:56:43.160 what's categorized as disturbances, Almost fifteen percent are for psychological evaluations, 2:56:43.480 --> 2:56:47.200 ten percent are for quote, check the area and information. 2:56:47.800 --> 2:56:50.880 Over seven percent are for welfare checks, six point five 2:56:50.920 --> 2:56:55.160 percent is for quote unknown problem, and over six percent 2:56:55.400 --> 2:57:00.680 is for suspicious person and another six percent for traffic accidents. Now, 2:57:01.280 --> 2:57:04.520 some drone of deployments do results in patrol units not 2:57:04.720 --> 2:57:08.640 having to be dispatched, but CVPD also says that drones 2:57:08.680 --> 2:57:12.520 have assisted in thousands of arrests. And I'm really not 2:57:12.680 --> 2:57:16.040 sure if having a drone following someone around is the 2:57:16.120 --> 2:57:18.760 best thing for a fifty one to fifty psych evaluation. 2:57:19.440 --> 2:57:21.520 The presidence of a police officer doesn't always make the 2:57:21.600 --> 2:57:26.160 situations better either, but I don't see having a drone 2:57:26.560 --> 2:57:30.080 be a really calming presence if you think someone needs 2:57:30.160 --> 2:57:45.400 mental help. Funding a whole fleet of heavy duty surveillance 2:57:45.480 --> 2:57:49.800 drones and paying dedicated operators costs money. Now it's unclear 2:57:49.800 --> 2:57:53.720 to me how many drones to LEVISTAPD currently has, and 2:57:53.920 --> 2:57:57.480 on their website they list ten different drone models currently 2:57:57.600 --> 2:58:00.840 being in their fleet, most of them really expensive DGI 2:58:00.959 --> 2:58:05.640 drones like the DGI Matrix, the DGI Inspire, the DGA Phantom, 2:58:06.040 --> 2:58:09.280 the dj Maverick, as well as drones from a few 2:58:09.320 --> 2:58:14.720 other random companies. But nevertheless, Chief Kennedy is very grateful 2:58:15.000 --> 2:58:18.000 for their local Police Foundation for heading up the funding 2:58:18.280 --> 2:58:23.320 for their DFR drone first Responder program. Let's hear from her. 2:58:23.920 --> 2:58:25.440 I don't know if anyone here is in. 2:58:25.520 --> 2:58:29.080 Law enforcement, but many agencies use drunes and there are 2:58:29.120 --> 2:58:31.160 all different types of drones that are available. 2:58:31.480 --> 2:58:34.199 I call them reactive drums. 2:58:34.000 --> 2:58:36.440 Or ones that are like the tactical drones that you 2:58:36.480 --> 2:58:38.960 can use to go in on a hostage situation or 2:58:39.000 --> 2:58:41.160 a missing person to check in the. 2:58:42.800 --> 2:58:45.960 Canyon areas, or you know, interior drones. 2:58:46.080 --> 2:58:49.119 We have drunes that grow underneath bands, go inside addicts, 2:58:49.120 --> 2:58:53.199 all types of different drones, and many organizations have drones 2:58:53.320 --> 2:58:56.120 like that, but a DFR drone is very unique and 2:58:56.200 --> 2:58:59.720 different because these drones are flying as you can imagine 2:59:00.080 --> 2:59:02.560 ten thousand missions. It puts a lot of wear and 2:59:02.640 --> 2:59:05.680 tear on them. But that is one of the biggest 2:59:05.760 --> 2:59:10.120 challenges beyond that of funding. So we don't have huge 2:59:10.160 --> 2:59:15.080 budgets that are abouted for drone programs, and so we've 2:59:15.120 --> 2:59:17.600 had to be very, very creative at our police department, 2:59:17.800 --> 2:59:20.160 and we were very blessed to have a police foundation 2:59:20.760 --> 2:59:24.800 that has taken on the responsibility to help us really 2:59:25.320 --> 2:59:29.160 start our drone program and continue going forward. So funding 2:59:29.280 --> 2:59:32.160 is always going to be a challenge and dependent upon the. 2:59:32.280 --> 2:59:33.400 Drone that you use. 2:59:33.480 --> 2:59:36.120 There are some drones that you can't get any as. 2:59:36.400 --> 2:59:39.320 You can't use for assets seizure funding, nor can you 2:59:39.360 --> 2:59:42.720 get grants for because sometimes when it comes to foreign 2:59:42.760 --> 2:59:45.880 may drones there are many challenges as well. So you 2:59:46.000 --> 2:59:48.160 have to think of that and then we deal with legislation. 2:59:48.400 --> 2:59:50.560 Right now, that's the new challenge staff we all have. 2:59:51.600 --> 2:59:55.200 We have to bite some valves. I'm like I said, 2:59:55.200 --> 2:59:57.520 I'm agnostic. I want to use what's the best drum 2:59:57.680 --> 3:00:01.880 out there and protect the inform and we do that 3:00:02.040 --> 3:00:06.080 with encrypted software programs that are on private servers. But 3:00:06.280 --> 3:00:09.119 you'll see that there's a lot of discussion about drones 3:00:09.280 --> 3:00:10.480 and what drones we. 3:00:10.480 --> 3:00:11.680 Should be using right now. 3:00:12.480 --> 3:00:15.760 We'll get back to the chief's offhanded mention of legal 3:00:15.840 --> 3:00:19.640 battles in a bit here, But Chula Vista's budgetary situation 3:00:20.320 --> 3:00:23.000 may not be as dire as the chief makes it 3:00:23.040 --> 3:00:26.440 out to be. On top of their current fifty five 3:00:26.560 --> 3:00:30.279 million dollar operating budget. Back in twenty twenty, the Loprenza 3:00:30.400 --> 3:00:34.000 newspaper revealed that departments in San Diego County had secretly 3:00:34.080 --> 3:00:37.400 been getting hundreds of millions of dollars in high tech 3:00:37.480 --> 3:00:42.680 police equipment, including armored vehicles, facial recognition and phone breaking software, 3:00:43.040 --> 3:00:47.880 license plate readers, drones, ria gear, among other miscellaneous technology 3:00:48.280 --> 3:00:51.360 as a part of a DHS grant program due to 3:00:51.400 --> 3:00:55.680 their close proximity to the US Mexico border. Chula Vista 3:00:55.920 --> 3:00:59.080 was one such department, and as of twenty twenty, so 3:00:59.360 --> 3:01:02.760 four years ago, they had already received over one million 3:01:02.800 --> 3:01:05.960 dollars in grant funds from this DHS program, titled the 3:01:06.120 --> 3:01:12.480 quote Urban Area Security Initiative. Considering Chief Kennedy's budgetary concerns, 3:01:13.120 --> 3:01:16.640 drones actually have a lot of upsides financially, as they 3:01:16.640 --> 3:01:20.520 are often a lot cheaper than alternative surveillance methods, as 3:01:20.560 --> 3:01:23.520 well as being relatively easy to deploy remotely, either with 3:01:23.560 --> 3:01:25.640 a joystick or just by clicking a point on a 3:01:25.720 --> 3:01:30.160 map from a comfy office building. Issues around this ease 3:01:30.320 --> 3:01:33.040 of use was pointed out by Dave Moss, the director 3:01:33.080 --> 3:01:37.480 of investigations for the privacy rights group the Electronic Frontier Foundation, 3:01:38.000 --> 3:01:41.120 who was quoted in the MIT article saying, quote, up 3:01:41.200 --> 3:01:43.720 until the last like five to ten years, there was 3:01:43.800 --> 3:01:47.440 this unspoken check and balance on law enforcement power, money 3:01:48.000 --> 3:01:50.720 You cannot have a police officer standing on every corner 3:01:50.800 --> 3:01:53.640 of every street. You can't have a helicopter flying twenty 3:01:53.680 --> 3:01:56.520 four seven because of fuel and insurance is really expensive. 3:01:57.160 --> 3:02:00.320 But with all these new technologies, we don't have that 3:02:00.440 --> 3:02:03.000 check and balance anymore. That's just going to result in 3:02:03.120 --> 3:02:05.920 more people being pulled through the criminal justice system. 3:02:07.160 --> 3:02:09.800 My officers constantly are on the air now is UAS 3:02:09.879 --> 3:02:13.320 one available? Is UAS one available? Because it's getting them 3:02:13.440 --> 3:02:16.200 more information. Think about the fact that you can look 3:02:16.240 --> 3:02:18.280 at your cell phone. I could be anywhere in the 3:02:18.320 --> 3:02:20.680 world and I can look at kit lets me know 3:02:20.879 --> 3:02:23.280 whenever there's a drone fly, and I can walk, I 3:02:23.400 --> 3:02:28.960 can have visual awareness, aial overlay of what's happening in 3:02:29.080 --> 3:02:30.320 my community. 3:02:30.320 --> 3:02:31.320 No matter where I am. 3:02:32.280 --> 3:02:38.480 Advancements in technology are leading to further normalization of police surveillance. 3:02:39.520 --> 3:02:42.520 Ten years ago, would people react to news of a 3:02:42.640 --> 3:02:46.240 twenty four hour police drone program the same way they 3:02:46.320 --> 3:02:49.760 would now? What was once the threat of Big Brother 3:02:50.360 --> 3:02:54.520 has since become a very sought after, unfetishized nanny state. 3:02:55.600 --> 3:02:58.560 In the v for Veneta graphic novel, anarchist writer Alan 3:02:58.640 --> 3:03:03.200 Moore imagined a fascist Britain characterized by surveillance cameras around 3:03:03.240 --> 3:03:06.520 every corner, and now cities around the country are setting 3:03:06.600 --> 3:03:10.000 up their own street mounted cameras linked to private security 3:03:10.080 --> 3:03:13.120 cameras and ring doorbell cameras to create a network of 3:03:13.200 --> 3:03:17.039 life coverage around a whole city which is instantly accessible 3:03:17.120 --> 3:03:22.640 to police. The more widespread consumer adoption of new technologies 3:03:22.840 --> 3:03:26.480 like small camera mounted drones and doorbell cameras, the more 3:03:26.520 --> 3:03:29.680 acceptable it seems for police to add such technology to 3:03:29.760 --> 3:03:34.760 their arsenal of surveillance tools. It almost becomes expected to 3:03:34.920 --> 3:03:39.200 LAVISTIPEDI has routinely declined to answer why their drones are 3:03:39.400 --> 3:03:42.600 always recording, both to and from the scene, and the 3:03:42.640 --> 3:03:45.480 department has put in a lot of effort into managing 3:03:45.560 --> 3:03:48.279 the backlash against their expanding drone program. 3:03:49.040 --> 3:03:49.960 And I'll tell you one thing. 3:03:50.080 --> 3:03:52.640 Even some of the after this, they were very concerned 3:03:52.680 --> 3:03:54.960 about drones in the sense of privacy. 3:03:55.520 --> 3:03:57.080 What are you doing with these drones? 3:03:57.160 --> 3:03:59.920 As you're responding, you're trying to gather data and information 3:04:00.080 --> 3:04:03.680 and de spy on us, right, And we have had 3:04:03.760 --> 3:04:05.880 to go to a lot of detail and explaining that 3:04:05.920 --> 3:04:06.320 as our. 3:04:06.280 --> 3:04:10.120 Drone lifts off, it is immediately it is recording, because 3:04:10.160 --> 3:04:13.920 that's the information gatherer for us. As that drone responds. 3:04:14.400 --> 3:04:17.240 The camera is already going almost three miles down the 3:04:17.320 --> 3:04:20.920 roads where the scene is and giving us vital information 3:04:21.200 --> 3:04:24.720 as the officers are responding. But one of the criticism was, 3:04:24.800 --> 3:04:27.240 go on the way back, is your drone just going 3:04:27.280 --> 3:04:30.400 in my backyard? What if we're spoking marijuana in our backyard? 3:04:30.600 --> 3:04:32.680 And I said, you're in California, it doesn't really matter 3:04:32.680 --> 3:04:33.119 about way. 3:04:33.520 --> 3:04:34.480 Let that way go right. 3:04:35.760 --> 3:04:39.400 But we said, okay, we gave you your concern, and 3:04:39.480 --> 3:04:41.080 so what we did was we worked with the. 3:04:42.920 --> 3:04:46.920 Software company that we were with and they created an 3:04:46.959 --> 3:04:51.640 automatic so that as a drone returns, it automatically tilts 3:04:51.720 --> 3:04:55.000 to the horizon, so we're not recording anything. If another 3:04:55.120 --> 3:04:58.040 call came out, we can immediately we'll go back in 3:04:58.120 --> 3:05:00.400 it or flight map it for us to share that 3:05:00.520 --> 3:05:04.520 information later on. But the goal is to listen to 3:05:04.640 --> 3:05:05.720 your community as well. 3:05:06.240 --> 3:05:09.040 Chief Kennedy's claim here is difficult to back up because 3:05:09.480 --> 3:05:12.440 CVPD have refused to show the public any of the 3:05:12.520 --> 3:05:16.240 drone footage they routinely collect. But if we take the 3:05:16.360 --> 3:05:19.520 Chief at her word here anyway, she admits that the 3:05:19.640 --> 3:05:22.440 drone goes back to recording at street level as soon 3:05:22.480 --> 3:05:24.840 as there's another nine one one call, as they record 3:05:24.920 --> 3:05:27.880 everything on the way to a scene. And the way 3:05:27.959 --> 3:05:32.240 she phrases this whole tilt feature is quite misleading because 3:05:32.320 --> 3:05:35.960 the camera never actually stops recording. She just claims that 3:05:36.080 --> 3:05:39.280 it tilts slightly upwards in between nine one one calls, 3:05:40.080 --> 3:05:42.959 but it's still capturing footage up to three miles away 3:05:43.360 --> 3:05:47.920 the entire time it's in the air. Police in Cheulavista 3:05:48.000 --> 3:05:51.440 have flown over eighteen thousand missions with their drowns. That's 3:05:51.480 --> 3:05:55.400 a lot of footage. When talking about the privacy concerns 3:05:55.520 --> 3:05:59.520 had by some residents of Chewulavista, Chief Kennedy really emphasized 3:05:59.600 --> 3:06:02.720 how much her in the department really care about listening 3:06:02.800 --> 3:06:07.279 to community feedback and how data transparency is so important 3:06:07.320 --> 3:06:08.240 to CVPD. 3:06:08.920 --> 3:06:15.119 Community engagement is essential, especially in law enforcement, because there 3:06:15.360 --> 3:06:17.720 is there are so many challenges when it comes to 3:06:18.000 --> 3:06:21.800 misinformation that's out there, and whenever you're a part of 3:06:21.879 --> 3:06:24.000 what's deemed as a government, everyone thinks that you have 3:06:24.120 --> 3:06:27.800 some ulterior motive when you're involved with any type of technology, 3:06:27.920 --> 3:06:31.400 and so we have worked really hard to build very 3:06:31.440 --> 3:06:35.040 strong relationships with every aspect of our community. So it 3:06:35.200 --> 3:06:38.280 was about in twenty fifteen when we started talking about 3:06:38.400 --> 3:06:41.600 the concept and the possibility of drones. And I laughed 3:06:41.640 --> 3:06:43.960 with Chancel, said George Jensen, because that's my story that 3:06:44.000 --> 3:06:45.080 I used to and I love it. 3:06:45.320 --> 3:06:47.320 Because I made fun of my guys. 3:06:47.200 --> 3:06:49.480 When they said that we want to fly drunes. I said, oh, 3:06:49.640 --> 3:06:51.680 come on, now, what are we bet George jetson flying 3:06:51.720 --> 3:06:54.280 around the cars? And then I saw today they talked 3:06:54.280 --> 3:06:55.080 about a blind car. 3:06:55.360 --> 3:06:59.720 So it happens. It happens, all right. And so with 3:06:59.840 --> 3:07:00.640 the community, we. 3:07:00.680 --> 3:07:04.240 Started having these conversations. We created a working group, we 3:07:04.320 --> 3:07:07.960 started doing community forums. We started asking the community about 3:07:08.080 --> 3:07:09.760 what would you think if we were able to do 3:07:09.879 --> 3:07:12.800 something like this. We even went to some of the 3:07:13.520 --> 3:07:17.440 organizations that may not always be so supportive of these 3:07:17.480 --> 3:07:20.320 types of groups. We worked with the ASL you and 3:07:20.640 --> 3:07:23.400 ask for their input on our policy. So before we 3:07:23.560 --> 3:07:27.480 ever flew a drone, we call it the krawl. 3:07:27.600 --> 3:07:29.080 Lolock run phase. 3:07:29.200 --> 3:07:31.720 We're still at the very end of crawl, we're not 3:07:31.879 --> 3:07:34.879 into lock yet and we've been doing it again also 3:07:35.000 --> 3:07:39.160 for five years. So you have to make certain that 3:07:39.280 --> 3:07:43.080 you're transparent, and we provided all types of information that 3:07:43.200 --> 3:07:43.840 are available. 3:07:43.879 --> 3:07:46.960 If you go to all you have put in is 3:07:47.000 --> 3:07:47.920 Jovis to place. 3:07:47.800 --> 3:07:50.760 Drums and it'll come up with us and you can 3:07:50.840 --> 3:07:52.360 look at all the things that we do, all the 3:07:52.440 --> 3:07:55.560 information that we share, the flight maps that we share. 3:07:56.879 --> 3:08:00.800 I mean, it's just super important to have those forums. 3:08:00.879 --> 3:08:01.400 Every year. 3:08:01.680 --> 3:08:03.960 We do a community forum twice a year where we 3:08:04.080 --> 3:08:05.640 ask for input from our community. 3:08:06.440 --> 3:08:09.800 Later on in the panel, Chief Kennedy said that CVPD 3:08:09.959 --> 3:08:14.160 is quote unquote extremely transparent about their flight data and 3:08:14.400 --> 3:08:18.200 quote unquote have nothing to hide relating to their use 3:08:18.360 --> 3:08:23.480 of surveillance drones, which is a curious claim considering the 3:08:23.560 --> 3:08:28.480 fact that CVPD has historically kept all drone footage hidden 3:08:28.560 --> 3:08:31.720 from the public and has fought in court to do so. 3:08:32.840 --> 3:08:37.240 Despite the chief's emphasis on the police's commitment to transparency 3:08:37.680 --> 3:08:41.360 and the importance of listening to community feedback, even going 3:08:41.440 --> 3:08:45.200 as far as to consult the ACLU when developing their 3:08:45.320 --> 3:08:49.360 drone program, for years now, the Cheu Livista Police Department 3:08:49.440 --> 3:08:52.840 has denied all FOYA and public records requests for any 3:08:52.959 --> 3:08:57.720 drone footage in response. Are Turno Castnares, a Teulvista resident 3:08:57.920 --> 3:09:02.240 and owner of the local bilingual newspaper Loprenza filed a 3:09:02.360 --> 3:09:07.119 lawsuit against the city. CVPD argued that all drone footage 3:09:07.160 --> 3:09:10.480 should be categorically exempt from the public records requests on 3:09:10.560 --> 3:09:12.720 the basis that the footage could be used for a 3:09:12.879 --> 3:09:18.000 future investigation. Just last December, only a few weeks before Cees, 3:09:18.480 --> 3:09:21.800 the California Fourth District Court of Appeals ruled that this 3:09:22.000 --> 3:09:26.760 blanket exemption is invalid and that not all drone first 3:09:26.800 --> 3:09:30.240 responder footage could be classified as part of appending or 3:09:30.360 --> 3:09:34.080 ongoing criminal investigation, pointing to examples such as nine oh 3:09:34.160 --> 3:09:37.560 one calls about a roaming mountain lion or a stranded motorist. 3:09:38.640 --> 3:09:42.160 And police were not happy about this ruling. I'll talk 3:09:42.200 --> 3:09:44.880 about their reaction at the end of the episode, but 3:09:45.520 --> 3:09:49.840 controlling the narrative about the drone first responder program has 3:09:49.959 --> 3:09:54.280 been of the utmost importance to Trulavista Police, as the 3:09:54.400 --> 3:09:56.959 chief herself expressed at the panel. 3:09:57.160 --> 3:09:59.720 And we're real good about telling our story. 3:10:00.320 --> 3:10:02.600 If you don't tell your own story in law enforcement, 3:10:02.680 --> 3:10:04.400 other people will tell it for it and it might 3:10:04.440 --> 3:10:07.480 not be the right story. So we've gotten really good 3:10:07.640 --> 3:10:14.000 at sharing on our social media and through YouTube channels 3:10:14.000 --> 3:10:14.840 and everything. 3:10:14.879 --> 3:10:16.480 Success stories of what we're doing. 3:10:17.000 --> 3:10:21.119 That is quite the claim there, to paraphrase the Electronic 3:10:21.200 --> 3:10:25.840 Frontier Foundation. Without public access to their drone footage, it 3:10:25.920 --> 3:10:29.040 makes it very difficult to assess how much privacy you 3:10:29.320 --> 3:10:32.560 have in Cheula Vista and whether police are even following 3:10:32.640 --> 3:10:36.320 their own rules about when and whether they record sensitive 3:10:36.360 --> 3:10:42.039 places like people's homes, backyards, or public protests. And that's 3:10:42.120 --> 3:10:44.800 why this recent ruling and the legal precedent it sets 3:10:45.280 --> 3:10:48.600 is a huge win for actual transparency and marks the 3:10:48.680 --> 3:10:51.640 first step towards the public finally getting a look at 3:10:51.720 --> 3:11:07.640 how these drones are being used in Scheula Vista. With 3:11:07.879 --> 3:11:11.480 drone first responder programs is spreading to police departments across 3:11:11.520 --> 3:11:15.040 the country modeled after the one in Chula Vesta. Combined 3:11:15.160 --> 3:11:19.480 with the increasing presence of stationary street level cameras, the 3:11:19.560 --> 3:11:22.320 ability for police to be watching everywhere without the need 3:11:22.400 --> 3:11:25.920 for on the ground officers creates what the EFF refers 3:11:26.000 --> 3:11:29.560 to as quote, a fundamental change in strategy, with police 3:11:29.600 --> 3:11:33.320 responding to a much much larger number of situations with drones, 3:11:33.879 --> 3:11:39.160 resulting in pervasive, if not persistent, surveillance of communities unquote. 3:11:40.120 --> 3:11:44.119 Speaking of persistent surveillance, Near the end of the panel, 3:11:44.440 --> 3:11:47.200 the Chief announced that to Lavesta, PD is planning to 3:11:47.320 --> 3:11:51.359 expand their ten hour a day drone first responder program 3:11:51.800 --> 3:11:55.680 to a constant twenty four hour a day drone surveillance program. 3:11:56.320 --> 3:11:58.800 More than doubling the department's capacity to have eyes in 3:11:58.840 --> 3:12:01.520 the sky would mean a lot more work hours for 3:12:01.680 --> 3:12:04.240 drone operators, as well as a large increase in the 3:12:04.280 --> 3:12:08.280 amount of video files being stored indefinitely, but Chief Kennedy 3:12:08.360 --> 3:12:12.200 claimed that they're looking into offsetting costs by replacing some 3:12:12.320 --> 3:12:15.800 of the drone piloting team with AI assisted piloting and 3:12:15.959 --> 3:12:17.200 autonomous devices. 3:12:17.879 --> 3:12:22.760 You've clearly been the leader with thrones's first responder technology. 3:12:23.360 --> 3:12:25.920 Looking forward, what is the future hole for the department? 3:12:26.400 --> 3:12:28.360 I assume you're spending a lot of time telling others 3:12:28.400 --> 3:12:33.160 about the program edition using drones, but beyond that, what's up. 3:12:34.640 --> 3:12:37.480 Well, my hope is that we'll be moving towards twenty 3:12:37.560 --> 3:12:41.880 four hour operations. Right now, we're from sunrise to sunset. 3:12:42.080 --> 3:12:44.320 We go untill close to ten o'clock at night, which 3:12:44.360 --> 3:12:47.160 goes a little bit beyond that. And then one of 3:12:47.240 --> 3:12:50.240 the challenges, and I know you're only getting a little 3:12:50.280 --> 3:12:53.160 piece of the information about exactly how we're doing this. 3:12:53.280 --> 3:12:56.160 But from the four different locations that we fly on 3:12:56.280 --> 3:12:58.359 each of the rooftops, we have what's called the piloting 3:12:58.440 --> 3:13:02.160 command and thatlot in command is contracted through a company 3:13:03.040 --> 3:13:07.000 and we and they just have visual awareness of the 3:13:07.080 --> 3:13:10.920 sky and they working in coordination with our drone pilot 3:13:11.000 --> 3:13:14.320 that's inside our operations center. But that's a huge expense 3:13:14.520 --> 3:13:17.800 for us to pay lead for each site right now 3:13:17.959 --> 3:13:19.840 with the operations that we have to paint abut one 3:13:19.920 --> 3:13:22.720 hundred thousand dollars per year, So that's four hundred thousand 3:13:22.760 --> 3:13:27.080 dollars for four locations beyond all the other processes here. 3:13:27.320 --> 3:13:29.680 And so if you can get expensive, my hobe is 3:13:29.720 --> 3:13:31.680 that and we keep hearing about it. We've seen some 3:13:32.400 --> 3:13:35.120 of the testing and we've been testing it as well 3:13:35.280 --> 3:13:38.800 in our area or what's called drone in the box 3:13:39.120 --> 3:13:41.320 or there's some of the systems that are out there 3:13:41.560 --> 3:13:45.279 right now that organizations are using that are a toonaments 3:13:45.320 --> 3:13:48.119 and so we're getting there, but we're not quite there 3:13:48.240 --> 3:13:52.240 because it's very different when you're dealing with flying over 3:13:52.360 --> 3:13:54.439 people and you're flying. 3:13:54.240 --> 3:13:57.080 Into areas where the drone was to drop out of. 3:13:57.080 --> 3:13:59.120 The sky and harm people in our community. That could 3:13:59.600 --> 3:14:03.600 create tremendous challenges for a silberberry. As I mentioned the 3:14:03.720 --> 3:14:04.400 crawl things. 3:14:05.000 --> 3:14:08.240 So to explain how these AI autonomous drones would work, 3:14:08.720 --> 3:14:11.840 It's essentially this box about the size of a truck 3:14:11.879 --> 3:14:14.440 bed that can either be mounted in like a police 3:14:14.480 --> 3:14:18.199 pickup truck or be stored on various rooftops around the city, 3:14:18.680 --> 3:14:21.080 and someone just needs to point at a place on 3:14:21.120 --> 3:14:23.920 a map and the drone will fly in pilot itself 3:14:23.959 --> 3:14:28.119 around obstacles and basically circle around an area to do surveillance, 3:14:28.400 --> 3:14:30.680 and you can call it back when you're done. This 3:14:30.760 --> 3:14:33.560 would require a whole bunch of drones to just be 3:14:34.080 --> 3:14:36.720 launching and being piloted by themselves. You wouldn't have to 3:14:36.879 --> 3:14:40.440 train random police officers to become FAA licensed pilots, and 3:14:40.520 --> 3:14:42.640 you could just have the whole thing in the box 3:14:42.760 --> 3:14:45.120 like it's called drone in the box. And these are 3:14:45.200 --> 3:14:48.760 only going to become more common and cheaper. Imagine having 3:14:48.920 --> 3:14:51.920 ten of these throat a city, launching from like ten 3:14:52.000 --> 3:14:56.400 different rooftops, being able to fly around by themselves, constantly 3:14:56.760 --> 3:15:00.760 going around in communities, constantly going to GPS coordinates linked 3:15:00.800 --> 3:15:03.360 to the nine one one calls creating a whole wealth 3:15:03.400 --> 3:15:06.880 of footage instantly available to police, live streamed from the air. 3:15:07.959 --> 3:15:11.320 Matt Sloane, the founder of Skyfire Consulting, a company here 3:15:11.320 --> 3:15:13.840 in Atlanta that trains law enforcement agencies on the use 3:15:13.879 --> 3:15:17.199 of drones and DFR programs, thinks that we'll start seeing 3:15:17.520 --> 3:15:20.600 autonomous deployment of police drones within the next year or two, 3:15:21.000 --> 3:15:25.720 as police budgets increase and become allocated for unmanned aerial systems. 3:15:26.560 --> 3:15:28.960 He referred to the state of drone use by police 3:15:28.959 --> 3:15:34.480 as quote rapidly escalating. Jula Vista likes to market itself 3:15:34.560 --> 3:15:38.920 as a pioneer of the smart city movement, which consequently 3:15:39.360 --> 3:15:41.959 makes them able to receive a whole bunch of grant funding. 3:15:42.840 --> 3:15:43.040 Now. 3:15:43.480 --> 3:15:46.760 The idea of the smart city is built around having 3:15:46.959 --> 3:15:50.879 a massive amount of data to automate certain city services. 3:15:52.000 --> 3:15:53.840 So for this idea to work, there needs to be 3:15:53.879 --> 3:15:57.080 a way to collect that data, and these drones are 3:15:57.160 --> 3:16:00.320 a major part of that. The website for the city 3:16:00.360 --> 3:16:05.279 of Truela Vista also lists projects like electronic transportation, adaptive 3:16:05.320 --> 3:16:09.080 traffic signals in app for non emergency city services, as 3:16:09.160 --> 3:16:13.960 well as quote crime mapping and police dispatch modernization unquote 3:16:14.320 --> 3:16:17.720 as also being smart city initiatives. 3:16:18.480 --> 3:16:21.840 We have what's called by nine one one, and that 3:16:22.200 --> 3:16:25.279 allows my officers to hear incoming nine more one calls 3:16:25.800 --> 3:16:28.200 before dispatch even puts it into the system. They can 3:16:28.280 --> 3:16:32.240 hear what's going on there, and that is tremendously in 3:16:32.400 --> 3:16:36.560 valuable to them. We have so many different layers of 3:16:36.680 --> 3:16:40.400 technology that have really showcase the value. 3:16:40.920 --> 3:16:43.000 Live nine one one is a new piece of software 3:16:43.280 --> 3:16:46.360 that allows patrol officers to listen to live stream to 3:16:46.440 --> 3:16:49.480 nine one one calls directly and pinpoints the location of 3:16:49.560 --> 3:16:53.720 the caller via GPS. Now, I don't even have time 3:16:53.879 --> 3:16:55.840 to get into the many reasons that this could be 3:16:55.920 --> 3:16:59.360 a bad idea, but simply put, police do not need 3:16:59.440 --> 3:17:01.879 to respond to every call that goes into nine one one, 3:17:02.400 --> 3:17:06.000 let alone be giving random cops this ability to self 3:17:06.120 --> 3:17:09.320 dispatch on their own. It just seems like that could 3:17:09.360 --> 3:17:14.039 have many many consequences. But anyway, back to drones. According 3:17:14.080 --> 3:17:17.800 to a twenty twenty article in the newspaper Loprenza, cities 3:17:17.879 --> 3:17:21.520 in San Diego County like Chula Vista, have received equipment 3:17:21.600 --> 3:17:25.199 such as tethered drones used for stationary surveillance poll cameras, 3:17:25.320 --> 3:17:28.520 license plate readers, and cell phone cracking technology used to 3:17:28.560 --> 3:17:33.959 circumvent passwords from the Urban Area Security Initiative DHS grant program. 3:17:34.879 --> 3:17:37.680 A lot of these technologies have use in the Smart 3:17:37.800 --> 3:17:42.520 City Idyllic plan for data collection to automate city services. 3:17:43.640 --> 3:17:45.760 After the drone panel was over and I was walking 3:17:45.840 --> 3:17:49.160 around the show floor at CEES, I couldn't help but 3:17:49.320 --> 3:17:53.240 notice all of the smart cameras and AI image recognition 3:17:53.360 --> 3:17:58.200 systems being advertised for law enforcement applications. Software that can 3:17:58.560 --> 3:18:02.600 almost instantaneously scan through a wealth of footage and track 3:18:02.680 --> 3:18:07.279 people's movements, run facial recognition, and identify every article of clothing. 3:18:08.320 --> 3:18:11.240 Versions of this type of software are already in use 3:18:11.320 --> 3:18:14.760 by many police departments, and they will only get better, cheaper, 3:18:14.879 --> 3:18:18.640 and more common. In effect, what this does is remove 3:18:18.760 --> 3:18:21.720 a lot of the detective legwork. Instead of having to 3:18:21.760 --> 3:18:25.360 manually map someone's movements and track down what niche etsy 3:18:25.480 --> 3:18:29.640 shirt someone's wearing, these aisystems can now do this all automatically. 3:18:30.560 --> 3:18:34.520 To quote the MIT Tech Review article on cvpd's DFR 3:18:34.640 --> 3:18:39.160 drone program quote. As the technology continues to spread, privacy 3:18:39.240 --> 3:18:41.520 and civil liberty groups are raising the question of what 3:18:41.760 --> 3:18:45.000 happens when drones are combined with license plate readers, networks 3:18:45.080 --> 3:18:48.360 of fixed cameras, and new real time command centers that 3:18:48.520 --> 3:18:52.880 digest and sort through video evidence. This digital dragnet could 3:18:52.959 --> 3:18:57.240 dramatically expand surveillance capabilities and lead to even more police 3:18:57.280 --> 3:19:01.080 interactions with demographics that have historically suffered from over policing. 3:19:01.360 --> 3:19:01.800 Unquote. 3:19:02.560 --> 3:19:05.480 Pedro Rios, a human rights advocate with the American Friends 3:19:05.640 --> 3:19:09.240 Service Committee and a member of Chula Vista's Community Tech Council, 3:19:09.879 --> 3:19:13.400 was quoted in the MIT article saying, quote, people in 3:19:13.600 --> 3:19:16.800 the community have no awareness of what images are captured, 3:19:16.920 --> 3:19:20.200 how the footage is retained, and who has access. It's 3:19:20.240 --> 3:19:22.400 a big red flag for a city that says it's 3:19:22.440 --> 3:19:24.680 at the forefront of the smart city movement. 3:19:25.040 --> 3:19:25.480 Unquote. 3:19:26.240 --> 3:19:32.160 These dramas they're revolutionizing the world. You, I mean people 3:19:32.840 --> 3:19:36.520 who are not taking drawn seriously right now? Who will 3:19:36.520 --> 3:19:39.760 be left behind. We have flown eighteen one hundred and 3:19:39.879 --> 3:19:42.720 fifty missions. You can go on a web page, you 3:19:42.800 --> 3:19:46.360 can see the flight data. We're extremely transparent. We share 3:19:46.400 --> 3:19:47.320 all that with our community. 3:19:47.320 --> 3:19:48.200 We have no need to hide. 3:19:48.800 --> 3:19:51.680 We are in the business of saving wise and I 3:19:51.879 --> 3:19:54.320 believe drums are one of the best estories focused. 3:19:55.240 --> 3:19:58.599 If they truly have nothing to hide and are extremely 3:19:58.760 --> 3:20:02.920 transparent about the use of their camera mounted drones, I 3:20:03.080 --> 3:20:06.040 wonder why they've spent years in court fighting to keep 3:20:06.240 --> 3:20:11.000 every second of drone footage from being seen by the public. Luckily, 3:20:11.240 --> 3:20:14.560 after Chief Kennedy talked for like thirty minutes about how 3:20:14.640 --> 3:20:17.400 much they care about community engagement and how transparent they 3:20:17.440 --> 3:20:20.160 are with their flight data, I was able to ask 3:20:20.240 --> 3:20:24.240 the Chief how their commitment to transparency relates to the 3:20:24.360 --> 3:20:28.000 recent lawsuit she just lost over hiding drone footage. And 3:20:28.080 --> 3:20:30.720 I also threw in a question about drones at protests. 3:20:31.160 --> 3:20:32.400 Let's take a listen. 3:20:33.160 --> 3:20:34.280 Yeah, a question for the chief. 3:20:34.600 --> 3:20:36.160 So, I know you talked about the importance of like 3:20:36.680 --> 3:20:39.080 listening to the community and community engagement. And I'm not 3:20:39.080 --> 3:20:41.039 sure this is the case for your department, but other 3:20:41.120 --> 3:20:44.120 departments who've kind of followed suit, for your example, have 3:20:44.200 --> 3:20:48.080 been using drones to surveil first amendent activity stuff. And 3:20:48.160 --> 3:20:51.600 I know you recently lost a court case regarding the 3:20:51.680 --> 3:20:55.680 availability of drone footage, so I'm curious about kind of 3:20:57.040 --> 3:21:00.040 what the rationale for that footage is and how that 3:21:00.320 --> 3:21:02.680 plays into this idea of trying to be transparent with 3:21:02.760 --> 3:21:04.720 the community for how these drones are being used. 3:21:06.240 --> 3:21:07.879 That's going to be going to be a little bit 3:21:07.920 --> 3:21:10.160 difficult for me to answer because the court case is 3:21:10.240 --> 3:21:12.200 still moving forward. 3:21:12.480 --> 3:21:16.720 It's an active case. If you read it, we didn't 3:21:16.840 --> 3:21:17.760 lose the case. 3:21:18.240 --> 3:21:21.520 It was recommended to go to a lower core to 3:21:21.600 --> 3:21:24.480 go back for some clarification under three categories. 3:21:25.160 --> 3:21:28.520 Now this is either a straight upply or a huge 3:21:28.720 --> 3:21:31.000 cope and a gross mischaracterization. 3:21:31.720 --> 3:21:33.840 But more on that in a sec I think. 3:21:33.720 --> 3:21:39.760 It's really important. As I mentioned, there are ethics involved in. 3:21:40.200 --> 3:21:43.279 The ethical responsibility that you have as a law enforcement 3:21:43.360 --> 3:21:47.600 agency is super important. So how you utilize your drones 3:21:48.000 --> 3:21:52.800 and how you do outreach with your community is fundamentally important. 3:21:52.920 --> 3:21:57.240 And so we don't use our drones for if there 3:21:57.480 --> 3:22:01.160 was a protest, We would not use are drones if 3:22:01.200 --> 3:22:07.119 there was if it turned into a riot. So if 3:22:07.160 --> 3:22:09.560 people were out there and they have the ability to 3:22:11.320 --> 3:22:14.959 to speak freely to share their concerns, and if it's 3:22:15.000 --> 3:22:17.720 in opposition, our goal is to make sure that we 3:22:17.879 --> 3:22:20.440 keep it safe for all parties involved on either side. 3:22:20.959 --> 3:22:24.040 So my hope is that other people look at it 3:22:24.120 --> 3:22:27.920 the same way that we do, and hopefully I've been 3:22:27.920 --> 3:22:30.120 able to answer it as much as I believe me, 3:22:30.320 --> 3:22:32.680 I'm dying to give you more than I can't. 3:22:32.959 --> 3:22:37.080 Okay, thank you for those questions, Folks were out of time. 3:22:37.160 --> 3:22:39.039 Maybe there could be questions after the. 3:22:39.080 --> 3:22:42.199 Session, So yeah, there were no more questions after mine. 3:22:42.280 --> 3:22:45.160 I kind of shut down that possibility anyway. 3:22:45.240 --> 3:22:45.480 Okay. 3:22:45.720 --> 3:22:49.240 So, first of all, the line between a protest and 3:22:49.360 --> 3:22:52.959 a riot is meaningless. Police can declare riot for any 3:22:53.000 --> 3:22:56.480 reason they see fit, including people being in a road marching. 3:22:57.040 --> 3:23:00.400 I've seen this happen dozens of times, nearly hundreds of 3:23:00.440 --> 3:23:04.480 times actually, So moving on from that immediately, let's go 3:23:04.600 --> 3:23:08.080 back to the court case. The city of Cheuelavista did 3:23:08.240 --> 3:23:10.320 lose the argument that they were trying to make. They 3:23:10.360 --> 3:23:13.240 did lose the case. The Fourth District Court of Appeals 3:23:13.360 --> 3:23:17.080 ruled that claiming exemption from the Public Records Act was 3:23:17.200 --> 3:23:20.440 unlawful and sent the case back to trial court to 3:23:20.720 --> 3:23:23.600 hammer the details of how much footage is subject to 3:23:23.680 --> 3:23:27.320 public disclosure and figure out a process for standardizing the 3:23:27.440 --> 3:23:31.560 release of the footage. Now. The same day I attended 3:23:31.600 --> 3:23:35.280 this panel in Las Vegas, January ninth, the city of 3:23:35.320 --> 3:23:39.600 Chula Vista requested an appeal to the California Supreme Court 3:23:39.800 --> 3:23:43.400 to prevent the release of their aerial video footage. There 3:23:43.480 --> 3:23:46.120 is a sixty day waiting period where the High Court 3:23:46.160 --> 3:23:48.480 will decide whether or not to take the case, and 3:23:48.600 --> 3:23:51.480 if they decline finally, it will go back to trial 3:23:51.560 --> 3:23:53.920 court to decide on the process of how selected drone 3:23:53.959 --> 3:23:58.440 footage shall be made publicly available. The police are now 3:23:58.600 --> 3:24:02.480 currently claiming that make DFR footage adhere to the Public 3:24:02.520 --> 3:24:07.120 Records Act would violate the privacy of Chula Vista residents 3:24:07.280 --> 3:24:11.879 captured in the videos, which perhaps demonstrates that the aerial 3:24:12.000 --> 3:24:15.000 videos should have never been captured in the first place. 3:24:15.760 --> 3:24:18.039 I'm going to read a press release from the city's 3:24:18.160 --> 3:24:22.440 communication manager. Quote, the city declined to provide the copies 3:24:22.520 --> 3:24:26.480 because doing so might have violated individual privacy rights. The 3:24:26.560 --> 3:24:29.360 city would have to manually review and redact every video 3:24:29.440 --> 3:24:32.920 recording to protect information considered personal, such as the images 3:24:33.000 --> 3:24:37.360 of faces, license plates, backyards, and more. Unquote, So the 3:24:37.440 --> 3:24:40.520 city is both trying to argue that having to manually 3:24:40.600 --> 3:24:43.520 review each requested file to determine if the video in 3:24:43.640 --> 3:24:47.840 question is related to appending investigation, as well as redacting 3:24:48.080 --> 3:24:51.840 personal information captured on camera would be way too costly 3:24:51.959 --> 3:24:55.920 and time consuming. City officials claim that reviewing and redacting 3:24:56.000 --> 3:24:59.080 videos from one month to obscure faces, license plates, and 3:24:59.160 --> 3:25:03.000 backyards would take a full time employee around two hundred 3:25:03.080 --> 3:25:06.039 and thirty days. I'm going to read a little bit 3:25:06.080 --> 3:25:09.160 more from the city's recent statement. Quote, while the city 3:25:09.320 --> 3:25:13.400 takes very seriously its obligation to provide the public access 3:25:13.480 --> 3:25:16.879 to public records, the city is concerned that the Court 3:25:16.879 --> 3:25:22.520 of Appeal's opinion may compromise significant privacy concerns of members 3:25:22.560 --> 3:25:25.680 of the public in this case or in future requests. 3:25:25.959 --> 3:25:26.439 Unquote. 3:25:27.600 --> 3:25:31.360 Somehow the city is missing the point that this is 3:25:31.920 --> 3:25:35.560 the very reason the drone footage is being requested to 3:25:35.720 --> 3:25:39.440 learn the actual nature of this highly influential drone first 3:25:39.480 --> 3:25:43.120 responder program that's being adopted across the country. If the 3:25:43.240 --> 3:25:46.640 existence of this footage is such a massive privacy violation, 3:25:47.360 --> 3:25:51.160 that implies that the recording of said footage itself implicitly 3:25:51.320 --> 3:25:56.000 violates people's privacy, and the harder police fight to hide 3:25:56.080 --> 3:25:59.720 their sweeping collection of aerial footage, all the more suspicious 3:25:59.760 --> 3:26:01.360 this entire program seems. 3:26:02.360 --> 3:26:02.400 So. 3:26:02.640 --> 3:26:05.000 That is what I have to say about Chula Vista's 3:26:05.400 --> 3:26:08.920 drone first Responder program. In about a month and a half, 3:26:09.520 --> 3:26:12.360 the Supreme Court of California will make their decision on 3:26:12.560 --> 3:26:14.560 whether or not they're going to hear this case. If 3:26:14.600 --> 3:26:18.160 they decline, then the president will be set statewide against 3:26:18.200 --> 3:26:22.000 this exemption of the Public Records Act by hiding drone footage, 3:26:22.400 --> 3:26:25.880 So that will be really cool, And then hopefully within 3:26:25.959 --> 3:26:28.160 the next year, we'll finally be able to see what 3:26:28.320 --> 3:26:30.760 some of this footage actually looks like, how good their 3:26:30.840 --> 3:26:32.560 cameras are, how much they can zoom in, all of 3:26:32.600 --> 3:26:34.960 the details of how much of the city they're capturing, 3:26:35.280 --> 3:26:37.040 all this kind of stuff, how often the drones are 3:26:37.040 --> 3:26:39.480 in the air, all of those types of things that 3:26:39.600 --> 3:26:42.320 it will be easier to highlight once we can actually 3:26:42.360 --> 3:26:43.199 take a look at the footage. 3:26:43.520 --> 3:26:45.039 And I assume that. 3:26:45.720 --> 3:26:49.320 Going through and releasing requested files for one month will 3:26:49.360 --> 3:26:51.840 probably end up not taking two hundred and thirty days. 3:26:51.920 --> 3:26:54.600 But I do know how the police love to love 3:26:54.640 --> 3:26:57.360 to stretch out these public records requests for as long 3:26:57.400 --> 3:27:00.040 as they can. As the request that this lawsuit it 3:27:00.080 --> 3:27:02.640 stems from, it's all the way back to April of 3:27:02.680 --> 3:27:06.920 twenty twenty one, So hopefully hopefully more than three years later, 3:27:07.280 --> 3:27:11.520 we'll finally get a look special thanks to Loprenza for 3:27:12.160 --> 3:27:15.200 starting this lawsuit and doing all of the hard work 3:27:15.280 --> 3:27:17.920 to actually force the police to be transparent. And if 3:27:17.959 --> 3:27:19.520 you want to read more, I'd recommend checking out the 3:27:19.520 --> 3:27:22.360 website to Loprenza dot org, as well as the MIT 3:27:22.480 --> 3:27:25.840 tech review piece, which provided some really really useful information 3:27:26.160 --> 3:27:28.040 to fill in the gaps between my own research. 3:27:28.240 --> 3:27:29.480 So yeah, thank you for. 3:27:29.520 --> 3:27:31.959 Listening to It could happen here. It certainly could happen 3:27:32.000 --> 3:27:34.960 here in terms of seeing more of these little fuckers 3:27:35.040 --> 3:27:36.040 flying around in the air. 3:27:39.640 --> 3:27:42.800 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:27:42.879 --> 3:27:44.760 from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:27:45.400 --> 3:27:47.720 It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:27:47.959 --> 3:27:50.600 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:27:50.680 --> 3:27:53.760 Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:27:53.800 --> 3:27:56.320 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:27:56.760 --> 3:27:58.840 You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 3:27:58.920 --> 3:28:01.920 monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash sources. 3:28:02.160 --> 3:28:02.960 Thanks for listening.