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Speaker 1: Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions. Welcome back to It

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Speaker 2: could Happen here, a podcast about it happening here. And

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Speaker 2: in the original cadence of this website or website, in

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Speaker 2: the original cadence of the show, that was a reference

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Speaker 2: to a civil war, right, a new civil war. It

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Speaker 2: could happen here. That's what season one was made a

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Speaker 2: big splash. Now, we kind of covered the dystopia beat

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Speaker 2: in general, but today we're getting back to our mother

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Speaker 2: fucking roots because the state of Texas has recently declared

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Speaker 2: a big old fuck you to the federal government are

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Speaker 2: having its National guardsmen deploy razor wire at the border

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Speaker 2: and stop border patrol people from, for example, performing rescues

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Speaker 2: of people who are trapped in the water drowning.

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Speaker 3: It's a whole thing.

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Speaker 2: At least three migrants have already died as a result

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Speaker 2: of this fuckery by Texas Governor Greg Abbott, and now like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, twenty states something near to that. There

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Speaker 2: may be more by the time you hear this, but

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Speaker 2: something like twenty states have declared that they're in support

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Speaker 2: of Governor Abbott's refusal to let the FEDS in and

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Speaker 2: insistence that he's dealing with an invasion and must take

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Speaker 2: on the border texas'self, and some of those states are

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Speaker 2: now sending or at least claim they're going to send

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Speaker 2: national guardsmen. So when this all started happening, we all

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Speaker 2: got a lot of messages. I got about a billion

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Speaker 2: from people being.

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Speaker 3: Like is this it? Is this the civil war?

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Speaker 2: And obviously a big chunk of that comes from right

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Speaker 2: wing memes because they are all talking about like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: let's do it, let's have us a civil war. We're

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Speaker 2: all going to start fighting over some guy posted his

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Speaker 2: handgun collection like we're ready a.

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Speaker 4: Bunch of revilvers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, stupid shit, it's stupid shit, But you know, it's

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Speaker 2: not unreasonable to be like, this seems like a massive

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Speaker 2: constitutional crisis that's potentially in line with some of the

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Speaker 2: crises that precipitated the original Civil War. You've got a

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Speaker 2: governor completely defying not now, not just you know, the

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Speaker 2: president and the federal government, but the Supreme Court who

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Speaker 2: ruled that you can't just have your fucking Texas goons

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Speaker 2: stop a federal law enforcement agency from doing its.

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Speaker 3: Job on the border.

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Speaker 2: So you know, how serious is this and is this

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Speaker 2: the kind of thing that's going to lead to a

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Speaker 2: twenty four's new Civil War movie? And my quick take

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Speaker 2: on this is no, probably not. I think what this

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Speaker 2: is is, in fact, a governor stretching out his authority

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Speaker 2: and testing how much he can get away with against

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Speaker 2: the overall federal government because he and a lot of

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Speaker 2: other conservative governors want to do things that are directly

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Speaker 2: in contravention of the Civil Rights Act, of the Bill

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Speaker 2: of Rights, of numerous federal protections for their citizens. And

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Speaker 2: this is kind of a way of being like, well,

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Speaker 2: if they won't fuck with us over this, then we

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Speaker 2: can probably start imprisoning journalists and you know, killing people

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Speaker 2: that or at least imprisoning people that otherwise we would

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Speaker 2: not be able to write like this is a right

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Speaker 2: wing power grab and it's an attempt to see is

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Speaker 2: the central government weak enough that we can get away

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Speaker 2: with this stuff. I don't think they're all going to

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Speaker 2: start shooting at each other. I don't think Greg abbott

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Speaker 2: is wants to get in a shooting war with the

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Speaker 2: federal government over mostly the dimensions of the crisis are

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Speaker 2: gend up and fake in terms of like what he

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Speaker 2: is claiming it is. There is, in fact the humanitarian

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Speaker 2: crisis at our border, but that's not what his issue is.

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Speaker 2: So that's my quick take. We're going to get into

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Speaker 2: more of all of that. But James, you are our

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Speaker 2: resident border correspondent porrespondent, and you have some very strong

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Speaker 2: feelings on how all of this has been interpreted in

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Speaker 2: the media, So I wanted to pull to you first

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Speaker 2: and then we'll get to Mia and we'll just kind

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Speaker 2: of round table after that.

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Speaker 5: I do, and in a rare instance for me, I

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Speaker 5: have strong feelings about the way this has been covered,

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Speaker 5: and strong feelings about the coverage of the border, which

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Speaker 5: I know is the thing I talk about all the time.

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Speaker 5: But I am beyond frustrated with the way this has

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Speaker 5: been covered. It's hugely irresponsible and it's completely context free,

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Speaker 5: Like there are people as there always are with the border,

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Speaker 5: and there always are with the right who just tourists

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Speaker 5: outside things that they understand and try and generate clicks

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Speaker 5: by geeing up the fear of a civil war. And yes,

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Speaker 5: I've seen dozens of people sharing headlines about national Guard deployments.

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Speaker 5: So happened years ago. The National Guard have been deployed

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Speaker 5: to our border for years. I see national Guard troops

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Speaker 5: every day. I had a National Guard guy shooting me

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Speaker 5: and shoot at me, shout at me.

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Speaker 3: A friend of ours took one of their rifles.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, the National Guard have been extremely based in

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Speaker 5: arming the Butterfly Center. Yeah, they they're there. There's a

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Speaker 5: federal deployment. Texas also has a state deployment. These are

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Speaker 5: different things.

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Speaker 2: And other states have also sent national guardsmen to the

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Speaker 2: border before. By the correct this is not the first

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Speaker 2: time this has happened.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, So there's a federal deployment and then there

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Speaker 5: are state deployments. Both of those are distinct things. Something

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Speaker 5: to know about the state deployment that is missing in

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Speaker 5: the context free reporting that you're seeing is that these

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Speaker 5: guys aren't getting any of their federal deployment benefits, so

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Speaker 5: they won't be getting the tricare, they won't be getting

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Speaker 5: the time towards their retirement, they won't be getting their

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Speaker 5: GI bill, etc. So, like the Texas guys who are

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Speaker 5: deployed on state orders are really the National Guard are

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Speaker 5: getting barked by Greg Abbott Like it's laughable that that, Like,

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Speaker 5: you know, he's pretending that he cares about Texas while

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Speaker 5: actively screwing over and Robert and I have spoken to

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Speaker 5: some of those Texas National Guard folks last time we

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Speaker 5: were in Texas. Did not seem to be super motivated

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Speaker 5: to be They're the only military unit I've seen tried

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Speaker 5: to form a union because they're not in the federal

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Speaker 5: They're not in the federal orders, so they can attempt

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Speaker 5: to form a union.

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Speaker 3: Get Billy bragged down to the border. We got to

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Speaker 3: do this.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, let's get Billy back. I'll get him going over

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Speaker 5: the Rio Grande and when Billy bragg and they'll fix it.

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Speaker 5: It has been the most dangerous deployment that they've had,

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Speaker 5: including deployment to a rug They they have, unfortunately a

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Speaker 5: habit of drinking and driving, which has not proven healthy

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Speaker 5: for them. They also there's a quirk of Texas law

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Speaker 5: that means that they can't stop National Guard soldiers from

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Speaker 5: bringing their own firearms, yeah, which is great. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 5: and then us they can't stop them accidentally killing each

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Speaker 5: other with their own firearms. Also, yeah, it's good stuff.

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Speaker 5: A TG soldier did die trying to save a migrant

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Speaker 5: from the river. Yes, he drowned. So like it has

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Speaker 5: not like it is very boring but also quite dangerous deployment.

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Speaker 5: You know, they have really high They wrote a manifesto

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Speaker 5: a couple of years ago about how bullshit that deployment was,

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Speaker 5: which is really great to death. Yeah, So much of

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Speaker 5: this has been reported without any context, right, Like, I

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Speaker 5: think genuinely a lot of the people reporting on this

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Speaker 5: are not aware there have been national their National Guard

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Speaker 5: here in California. Like I say, I see them all

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Speaker 5: the time. They're not supposed to interdict migrants, but I

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Speaker 5: see them doing surveillance, and I see them guarding open

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Speaker 5: air prisons in Hiccumber almost every day, And I think

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Speaker 5: that seems to have been missed by the majority of

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Speaker 5: people covering this.

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Speaker 4: Now we should talk more about the open air prison part,

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Speaker 4: because I think there's a lot of people who seem

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Speaker 4: to be getting the impression that the Biden administration is

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Speaker 4: like actually substantively trying to do something to help immigrants,

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Speaker 4: and like they're like this fight is like between like

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Speaker 4: pro and anti immigration. It's like, no, there is a

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Speaker 4: fight between whether you think these people should be killed

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Speaker 4: incredibly quickly by accommodation of razor wire and rivers, or

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Speaker 4: whether you think they should starve the day.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, or die of dehydration walking through the desert, or

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Speaker 5: die of hypothermia walking through the mountains. Like I I

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Speaker 5: think I've said some of the podcasts before, but I

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Speaker 5: was helping a three year old girl who was hypothermic

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Speaker 5: last week, and like, that is what Joe Biden is doing.

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Speaker 5: That is a Joe Biden policy being enacted by Joe

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Speaker 5: Biden as Joe Biden wants it to be enacted, or

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Speaker 5: at very least I'm sure his personal complicity or even

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Speaker 5: understanding is relatively low. Given his understanding, it seems of

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Speaker 5: a lot of things. But the Biden administration's policy is

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Speaker 5: to deter people by making crossing more difficult and more dangerous,

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Speaker 5: which de facto makes it more deadly. Abbott is doing

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Speaker 5: with his razor wire and his floating fence is a

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Speaker 5: version of the same thing, like they are not distinctly different.

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Speaker 5: When everyone was up in arms about three people drowning,

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Speaker 5: that's a tragedy. At eight hundred and fifty people died

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Speaker 5: crossing the border in twenty twenty two, that was a

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Speaker 5: normal day. Like the distinction is maybe in degree, but

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Speaker 5: really it's an aesthetic between between Abbott and Biden and

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Speaker 5: this and it's just two dudes chest stump each other

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Speaker 5: trying to not look weak. There is not an option

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Speaker 5: in the US system which allows you to vote for

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Speaker 5: the party that doesn't want migrants to die, like like that,

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Speaker 5: both of the parties are completely in lockstep on that.

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Speaker 2: And let's let's let's be very clear about something. Part

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Speaker 2: of why that is is because an overwhelming number of

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Speaker 2: Americans are indifferent or actively hostile to the survival of migrants. Yes,

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Speaker 2: like this is an It is incredibly unpopular in this

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Speaker 2: country to think these people are human beings who deserve

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Speaker 2: decent treatment in decent lives. This is a fight that

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Speaker 2: the left has lost comprehensively, mostly in large part because

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Speaker 2: the left has completely given up on it, which is

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Speaker 2: why you've got fucking a lot of these nasbol assholes

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Speaker 2: saying shit like you know, this is we have like

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Speaker 2: like saying basically protectionist, nativist kind of shit these yes, right,

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Speaker 2: because I.

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Speaker 5: Think that like leftist media as also, and to include

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Speaker 5: I guess liberal media also has completely oh yeah, like

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Speaker 5: being complicit in this, right, Like the amount of stories

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Speaker 5: that you will read about migrants that don't talk to

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Speaker 5: migrants in the next few weeks will be a lot

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Speaker 5: if you'd care to read them, right, And that's because

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Speaker 5: people don't want to come here. They're either afraid of

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Speaker 5: coming here or they don't want to take the time,

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Speaker 5: they don't have the language skills. There are people who

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Speaker 5: have the language skills who who don't get these jobs,

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Speaker 5: and are people who don't have the language skills and

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Speaker 5: who don't have the understanding of how the border on

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Speaker 5: the ground works as opposed to immigration policy in DC works.

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Speaker 5: And you're going to see a lot of people who

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Speaker 5: don't live at the border, who don't come to the border,

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Speaker 5: writing about the border and yeah, that's how we got here,

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Speaker 5: and that's how we're getting to this largely like a

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Speaker 5: giant panic about a nothing burger. But yeah, it's the

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Speaker 5: reporting has been in continued to be responsible, and that

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Speaker 5: is in some degree complicit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think this is also the explanation for

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Speaker 4: why there's a lot of people going like, why is

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Speaker 4: Biden not like setting the troops? Why is Biden not

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Speaker 4: cracking jobs? Does fucking give a shit? It's the same policy.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't care, right Like, there's not actually substantive disagreement

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Speaker 4: except over like whether it should be like some like

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Speaker 4: a really stupid political stunt, over whether it should be

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Speaker 4: like federal troops like on or federal agents like on

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Speaker 4: the border, or whether it should be the razor wire

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Speaker 4: like he doesn't care, you know.

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Speaker 2: And to be fair, I will say I don't think

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Speaker 2: this is the start. This right here, I don't think

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Speaker 2: is the start of a civil war. We may if

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Speaker 2: we have one. We may someday see this on like

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Speaker 2: the list of factors contributing to in the years leading

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Speaker 2: up to it. But I will say, if we do

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Speaker 2: ever have a shooting civil war, it will be something

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Speaker 2: this dumb that I feel absolutely certain of it will.

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Speaker 2: It will be a thing where no one involved really

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Speaker 2: cares about the issue that starts it. It's just a

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Speaker 2: dick measuring contest that goes too far. I just don't

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Speaker 2: think this is the dick measuring contest. But to be fair,

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Speaker 2: it will be something this dumb. Don't worry, folks, don't worry.

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Speaker 2: If we do start shooting each other, it will be

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Speaker 2: just as supid as this.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I do think that, Like I think we're extremely

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Speaker 5: likely to start of shooting civil war over this or

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Speaker 5: in the next few years. Generally, I do think the

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Speaker 5: chance of shooting my context without a CIVI awards, shooting

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Speaker 5: specifically of migrants, especially in places where they're not safe,

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Speaker 5: like open air attention centers, is going up. And yes,

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Speaker 5: that scares the shit out of me, like as someone

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Speaker 5: who spends a lot of his life there. And I

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Speaker 5: do think that the I mean we saw in twenty eighteen, right,

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Speaker 5: and we've covered this extensively. The Tree of Life shooting

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Speaker 5: was in large part motivated by right wing rhetoric about

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Speaker 5: a caravan of migrants. I was in Tijuana in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 5: I spent months of my life helping people down there.

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Speaker 5: Like anyone who's scared of those people is paranoid at least,

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Speaker 5: right that they were mostly fine, wonderful, very friendly people.

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Speaker 5: I spent Christmas with them. But yeah, the twenty eighteen

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Speaker 5: Tree of Life shooting came from paranoia about the border.

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Speaker 5: We're seeing that same paranora from right wing media and

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Speaker 5: from liberal media now, and I think that it would

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Speaker 5: not be unreasonable to have that fear of individual acts

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Speaker 5: of violence and terrorism along the border.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things we're going to have

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Speaker 2: to do in the near future is get better at

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Speaker 2: understanding kind of the media dimensions of conflicts like this

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Speaker 2: and what is an irresponsible way to respond to them.

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Speaker 2: And I think treating this like it is a civil

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Speaker 2: war type deal is kind of feeding into the right's

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Speaker 2: image of itself and their desire to treat this like

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Speaker 2: their revolutionaries. Now, that said, what is the right thing

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Speaker 2: to do, because, like the the what the Biden administrations

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Speaker 2: seems to be doing right now is largely kind of

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Speaker 2: ignoring it. I think at some point they will probably

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Speaker 2: try to nationalize the guard and we'll see what happens.

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Speaker 3: Then.

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Speaker 2: One thing that's kind of worth noting is that this

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Speaker 2: has primarily gone viral on right wing media. I'm seeing

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Speaker 2: very little of this on mainstream centrist like liberal media sources.

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Speaker 2: And I'm seeing little on this because like most of

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Speaker 2: those sources don't really care about the border unless there's

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Speaker 2: some way to like drum up fear against migrants like that,

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Speaker 2: they'll do a caravan story. But this just simply doesn't sell.

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Speaker 2: I think when it comes to like what is a

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Speaker 2: responsible way to report on this, I think you have

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Speaker 2: to start by centering what's actually happening to the migrants,

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Speaker 2: what's being done to them, as opposed to focusing on

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Speaker 2: this dick measuring, because that's the actual harm here. The

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Speaker 2: harm here is not that Abbott has been mean to

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Speaker 2: the border patrol, and it's not that Texas and these

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Speaker 2: other states, these rebel states, are raising an army to

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Speaker 2: fight the federal government. It's that there's this argument between

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Speaker 2: the people in power in our country about like how

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Speaker 2: bad should things be for people who are already desperate.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's where you should center your focus. Also,

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Speaker 2: I've just noticed this on my other screen. This is

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Speaker 2: a bit off topic, but you know that movie Rebel

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Speaker 2: Moon by Zack Snyder, Oh god, An, there's an ad

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Speaker 2: for the canned water company Liquid Death that just is

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Speaker 2: showing a bunch of like imperial troops from that movie

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Speaker 2: beating a man and then drinking Liquid Death water as

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Speaker 2: they relax afterwards, and It's the most unhinged ad I've

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Speaker 2: ever seen. It's like running a side a Vox article.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like this before. It's just like,

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Speaker 2: what the wait a second, what Zack Snyder? Come on,

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Speaker 2: you can't do zax No, that fucking guy. Jesus talking

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Speaker 2: of advertising, buy some liquid death.

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Speaker 3: We're back.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So I want to talk about grift because we

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Speaker 5: talked about advertising a bit. I don't know if you

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Speaker 5: guys have seen the number of like right wing influences. Okay,

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Speaker 5: so I'm looking at friend of the podcast, Tim Poole's

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Speaker 5: Twitter here.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Tim, there's a guy who is excited to have

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Speaker 2: a civil war where he will be mrked immediately by

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Speaker 2: one of his bodyguards.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there is a man who's seen combat and knows

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Speaker 5: what it is to hear rounds cracking off over your head. Okay, Timple,

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Speaker 5: I'm just going to quote here at ha ha ha

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Speaker 5: ha ha etc. Fuck me, dude, and then Safe and

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Speaker 5: Ready Meals dot com. Pool is not the only one

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Speaker 5: on the buckets of food grift right. Alex Jones has

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Speaker 5: been on this too. Oh yeah, a million years, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: He's been longtime, longtime food story guy at Alex Jones.

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Speaker 5: A lot of these guys are like very clearly geeing

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Speaker 5: up fears of civil war on the right so that

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Speaker 5: they can sell people powder dry eggs like it's so transparent,

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Speaker 5: Like it's in the same tweet. Yeah, sobiak Trump calls

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Speaker 5: for all willing states to deploy National Guard to Texas

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Speaker 5: border and start the deportations. And then as a special

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Speaker 5: partner offer from my patriotsupply dot com god, which is

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Speaker 5: the way to fuel your bigotry?

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Speaker 2: I guess guys, two things. First off, if you buy

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Speaker 2: your storable food from some right wing media grifters deal site,

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Speaker 2: you will spend the apocalypse shitting yourself to death like

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Speaker 2: it's all horrible. If you are going to buy, if

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Speaker 2: you are going to throw a bunch of money on store.

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Speaker 2: If you are a sane and reasonable person who wants

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Speaker 2: to store food, learn how to make your own jerky.

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Speaker 2: Learn how to can food. You can do it very cheaply.

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Speaker 2: It is not expensive to can your own food. If

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Speaker 2: you know what you're doing. You can can stuff that

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Speaker 2: is in season and get it really cheap from the

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Speaker 2: grocery store. And you can pickle and do other kinds

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Speaker 2: of can't pressure canning. It's really economical and it will

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Speaker 2: last a long time. If you are going to spend

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Speaker 2: a shipload of money on storable, freeze dried food, you're

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Speaker 2: going to be spending a bunch of money anyway. Just

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Speaker 2: go buy Mountain House. By Mountain House. It's the good stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's tasty as far as I know. No right winger

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Speaker 2: advertises on them, and it's it's actually pretty good food. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's what I keep in my car. Emergencies. You will

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Speaker 2: not ship ever ever again. Yeah, you may never poop again.

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Speaker 2: But the fucking biscuits and gravy breakfast selection there. Man,

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Speaker 2: when you're alone in the mountains, that ship is fucking fire.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that will. It is like a bung for the

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Speaker 5: digestive system.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I just want to plug Lentils do org, which checked

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Speaker 5: a websitels.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Lentils ship forever.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's find balance between the yin and the yang

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Speaker 5: in your in your post a vocalypse life with Mountain

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Speaker 5: House and Lentils do Org. You today, you know what's

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Speaker 5: not running on Lentils guys. Unfortunately, this is not that pivot.

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Speaker 5: I've just I've done the ol bait and switch it's

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Speaker 5: this fucking convoy that's going to the border.

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Speaker 3: I'll talk about this little Yeah, let's do that that.

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Speaker 5: Like, this is where I'm really done with irresponsible reporting,

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Speaker 5: like being like oh no, January sixth, Part two. Here's

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Speaker 5: a link if you want to take part. Look, like,

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Speaker 5: what the fuck is wrong with you is stop it?

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Speaker 5: But I look, right wing groups have tried to run

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Speaker 5: convoys probably a dozen times since twenty twenty. Right, I

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Speaker 5: think we can all think of a different convoy that's

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Speaker 5: got stuck under a bridge.

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Speaker 4: When drove by my house and then basically didn't get

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Speaker 4: any further than that.

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Speaker 5: Yep, yep, they get lost. They disagree about directions.

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Speaker 2: A lot of what a lot of people are going

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Speaker 2: to realize is that the Texas border is twelve hours

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Speaker 2: from anywhere in Texas when you are in Dallas. I

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Speaker 2: believe this is accurate. When you are in Dallas, it

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Speaker 2: is faster to drive to Chicago than it is to

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Speaker 2: direct to the border. It is so fucking far away

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Speaker 2: from anything you could cross Europe in the time it

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Speaker 2: will take you to get down there.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I love the idea of a convoy of like you know,

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Speaker 5: like completely c pilled lunatic you're sending on the town

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Speaker 5: of MafA.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fucking passing Marathon and going where the christ.

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Speaker 6: Are we.

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Speaker 5: Like, yeah, like, it is a really really beautiful bike

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Speaker 5: ride from MafA to the border. There's from dirt roads

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Speaker 5: you can take.

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Speaker 2: Oh and Marfa by the way, folks, if you're looking

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Speaker 2: to go down to the border, very fun town. You'll

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Speaker 2: have a good time in Marfa.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, do love a bit of Marfa. Really, I'm not

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Speaker 5: going to tell my Martha story. I'll tell you guys

401
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Speaker 5: when we're done. But yeah, yeah, it is not like salacious.

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Speaker 5: It's just yeah, Marfa is near the border. Lots of

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Speaker 5: things are not. It is a very long way from

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Speaker 5: I guess like maybe people could fly to a passer

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Speaker 5: that's near the border. But yeah, it's this idea to

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Speaker 5: those three convoys, right. One I think is supposed to

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Speaker 5: go from Virginia Beach to Texas.

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Speaker 3: Shares the way.

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Speaker 2: Good luck, guys, enjoy spending seven thousand dollars in Gussie Yes,

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Speaker 2: exactly where if they not looked at the cost of fuel,

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Speaker 2: you fucking idiots have fun homies.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Another one is going from I think last Cruisays

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Speaker 5: to Yuma and the one is going from here at

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Speaker 5: Santa Cedro to Yuma. Yes, the drive from Santa Sedro

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Speaker 5: to Humor is boring af but good luck, I guess,

416
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Speaker 5: like good luck spending that Californa. Hopefully they get pull

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Speaker 5: off at some of the gas stations like east of

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Speaker 5: San Diego where it's still like six or seven dollars

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Speaker 5: a gallon, because you're fucked if you need fuel there

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Speaker 5: and you can't buy it from anyone else. But yeah,

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Speaker 5: the idea that people are going to spend all their

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Speaker 5: money like driving across the country's also just very like

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Speaker 5: there's the meme right of the like the old white

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Speaker 5: guy wearing Oakley wrap around or fake Oakley wrap around

425
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Speaker 5: sunglasses doing selfie video in his car to rent about

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Speaker 5: like anything and everything. But like, I think it's very

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Speaker 5: illustrative of how many of these people don't feel safe

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Speaker 5: outside their vehicles and like need the activism to involve

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Speaker 5: their theft.

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Speaker 2: Fifty Yeah, well, in part because most of them are,

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Speaker 2: like most Americans, not in great shape, not physically imposing.

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Speaker 2: So if you're sitting in an F two fifty, you

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Speaker 2: feel big and powerful. Like James, you and I both

434
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Speaker 2: have trucks. One of the things about trucks that is

435
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Speaker 2: nice is that being in a truck, you're elevated above

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Speaker 2: the rest of the road, right, Oh yeah, and that

437
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: that gets to a lot of people's heads, especially if

438
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 2: they have absolutely nothing else going on in their lives,

439
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 2: which nobody participating in this fucking caravan does. So they

440
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: this is like it's it's it's there. It's emotional support. Right,

441
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 2: They're sitting in their truck, they've got their gun, They're

442
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 2: not breathing hard because they have to like walk around

443
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 2: the world, and they would desperately prefer that they can.

444
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: That's where how their activism, that's how their participation in

445
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 2: the Second Civil War will occur. Yeah, bunch of fucking wankers. Yeah,

446
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 2: So I do want to get into kind of like

447
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: what we do feel is the actual threats of this. Again,

448
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 2: I think the danger here is you've got a lot

449
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: of kind of fights going down about like how far

450
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 2: can governments take their anti trans legislation, How mean can

451
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 2: they be to undocumented immigrants, Like how much violence can

452
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: they deploy in deporting people? What can they do to journalists?

453
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 2: What can they do to people speaking out or engaging

454
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: in protest without violating the Bill of Rights. You know,

455
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 2: what can they do to marginalized communities about virrelating the

456
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 2: Civil Rights Act?

457
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 3: I think this is an.

458
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: Attempt to set a precedent for ignoring federal control so

459
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 2: that they can be crueler to large groups of people

460
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: within their purview. And I think a lot of this

461
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,719
Speaker 2: is a reaction to this is kind of there, what

462
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 2: if we lose this election?

463
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: Right?

464
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 2: I think there is a fear. And I don't necessarily

465
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 2: think this fear is actually like born out. I don't

466
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: think the Rights National hopes in terms of its ability

467
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 2: to get elected again after Trump are as poor as

468
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: people want them to be, as I might want them

469
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: to be. But I think there is real fear among

470
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 2: the right that if Trump doesn't win this, they're not

471
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 2: going to win the presidency again, right, And I think

472
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 2: part of what they are doing is setting up all, right,

473
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: then we will just take over and take increasing autonomy

474
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 2: in our red states, and we will effectively govern them

475
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 2: very differently and govern them in contravention of how the

476
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: rest of the country and how the federal government of

477
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court says that they can be governed, because

478
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: we can't be cruel enough without that and I think

479
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: that is what they are stepping up to be able

480
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: to do. If you're asking you know, what do I

481
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: think will be sort of like line crossings that could

482
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 2: lead to to mass social violence in this country. One thing,

483
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 2: I don't think they're going to take that leap while

484
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: a Democrat is in control of the federal government in

485
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: the Defense Department. I think they will push for a

486
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: violent crackdown on everything left of the far right if

487
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: they win power again, because they talk about that repeatedly,

488
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 2: because they've promised to do that, and I think that

489
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: if they lose, there's an off chance. I don't think

490
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 2: this is likely, but it's not impossible that protests and

491
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 2: violence as acts of protest against Biden winning a second

492
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 2: term could snowball into something that resembles an insurgency. Not impossible.

493
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: I don't think that's the likeliest outcome. But I don't

494
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: see them starting to shoot at federal troops now while

495
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 2: Biden is in the White House. For one thing, I

496
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: feel like that's the thing that would really clinch it

497
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 2: for Biden. If Texas National Guard trying to secede, well,

498
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 2: you've made his reelection campaign easier, right, because now none

499
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 2: of the red states. None of the states that secede.

500
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: You can't also have an election where those states get

501
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: to vote, right, Like, that's that's just not the way

502
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,239
Speaker 2: it works. Yeah, so I don't feel like that's the

503
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: likeliest thing I think this is. Yeah, I think I've

504
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: made it clear what I think, and I think it's

505
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: really clear that it's time for our second dad break.

506
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 3: That's right.

507
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 5: Hopefully it's an ad for the new transpried oreos. Have

508
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 5: you guys seen those?

509
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 4: Yeah? No, have you not seen those?

510
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: What?

511
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 7: Wait?

512
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 5: Trans fried oreo? Well, yeah, maybe it's just me. I

513
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 5: was just reading a story earlier and I just.

514
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 4: Trans fat or No, they have like a blue transplant.

515
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 2: Oh well, okay, they have.

516
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 4: Years ago.

517
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: Hold on, this is okay, okay, okay, let's say I

518
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 2: don't really have.

519
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 5: Woke woke biscuit.

520
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: That's good, I have. I have no opinion on this.

521
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: I guess it's good Oreos aren't bigoted.

522
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, don't money to me instead.

523
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think it really matters. Side there. Ah,

524
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: we're back.

525
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 8: You know.

526
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 4: One thing I think about like part of why this

527
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 4: is going viral, and I think part of what's an

528
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 4: issue about this with the way it's being talked about

529
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 4: on the left, but also you know, the way, the

530
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: way it's marketable to the right is that the thing

531
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 4: about this confrontation is that it looks like a civil war,

532
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 4: but it looks like it's it's it's exactly perfectly engineered

533
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 4: to look like the lead Civil war one, And that

534
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 4: is incredibly misleading. It's it's it's it's basically it's like

535
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 4: a marketing thing, right, because like, yeah, and this is

536
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 4: only thing we've talked about on this show for like

537
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 4: literally since day one, is that like a civil war

538
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 4: in the United States is not going to look like

539
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 4: a bunch of states like form an alliance and then

540
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 4: all they're fighting all of the other states. Like it's

541
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 4: it's not going to look like that. It's going to

542
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 4: look closer to Syria than it is going to look

543
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 4: like like the first Civil War. But people haven't shaken

544
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 4: like the sort of like brainworms of a civil war

545
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 4: is like sixteen states fight sixteen states, even though every

546
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 4: single civil war that we've had, like in the intervening

547
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 4: like one hundred like two hundred years, has not been that.

548
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: And here's here's how wrong. Here's how people are comprehensively

549
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: wrong about this. Right on the left side, you have lmao,

550
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: you guys are going to fight the federal government with

551
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: your AR fifteen's. They got bombs and planes, and like, well,

552
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: we've seen how well our bombs and planes work against insurgencies.

553
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: We're not good at winning those. If there were any

554
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: real insurgency, and there's certainly ingredients to it, it would

555
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: actually be a problem for the US. However, that does

556
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: not look like sixteen states declaring themselves succeeded and going

557
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: to because that's a conventional war. And you know what

558
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: happened if Greg Abbott started a conventional war against the US.

559
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: Greg Abbott doesn't have a fucking bunker, right like we could,

560
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: we could, he could be he could.

561
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 3: Be blown up.

562
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 2: He is again nothing against being in a wheelchair, But

563
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: this is not a man who is capable of like

564
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 2: living underground and hiding from federal bombers. Like that's just

565
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: not the kind of conflict that you need to be

566
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: concerned about.

567
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, this this man does not have the big lawden

568
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 4: dog in him.

569
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 3: He just does not know he's sure, he sure doesn't.

570
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: He the idea of Greg Abba taking to a hate

571
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 2: system in doing a Tora bora Texas. He's hand out

572
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: and fucking yeah, fucking big bend or whatever. Yeah yeah,

573
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: Torah boring big bend. Jesus Christ.

574
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, it will be outstanding. We would love to see it.

575
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, grainy photos of Greg Abbott and like the

576
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: mountains of Southern Texas shaking hands with Mexican revolutionaries as

577
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: they smel rifles to him, rifles they also got from

578
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 2: the United States. That is what we call the circle

579
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: of life.

580
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 5: Oh good god, we can we can dream, but it

581
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 5: does seem unfortunately unlikely. Yeah, it would be very funny.

582
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

583
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 5: See Sealed Team go off to Greg Abbott.

584
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Sealed Team fighting the Texas Rangers off only.

585
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 4: If only.

586
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 5: Just a bunch of dudes each with a revolver because

587
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 5: they thought it looked cool until the very first time

588
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 5: someone was shooting back at them.

589
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

590
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: It's it's a real like who has who is on

591
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: the most HGH competition? Whoever, whoever can stop the steroids

592
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 2: from flooding in is going to win. That's the spice

593
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: in this particular conflict. Yea, we would love to see

594
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: Joe Rogan's the baron Harcone and of making sure everybody

595
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: spec ops, guys have enough gear floating above a fucking table. Great,

596
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: it would be wonderful in some senses. Yeah, I don't

597
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: think we're going to see a sheet word about It

598
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: will be interesting to see how like Biden has screwed

599
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: the pooch in terms of like his media management of this,

600
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: I would say, And it will be interesting to see

601
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: how hard he goes in response, Like if he goes

602
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: back in response, I think the smart answer would be

603
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: nationalize the Guard. If there's things that you can actually

604
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: prosecute people over, prosecute them and continue to not deal

605
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 2: with it in the media. Like his instinct isn't bad

606
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: in terms of not wanting to feed in directly to

607
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: the right wing outrage loop, but you still have to

608
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: You still have to go after them for this, right,

609
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: And it's the kind of thing it's probably like too

610
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: much to hope for any real action being taken. But

611
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: I would say that's probably the smarter option, right not

612
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: to say anything of like what the most moral thing

613
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: to do is, but the smart option is don't feed

614
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: into the fundraising loop, because we should probably get in

615
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: on that this is all a fundraising thing, right. In addition,

616
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: to them testing the waters. That's the biggest dimension of

617
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: this is and that's why we talked earlier. All of

618
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: these guys Timpoole and Jack Pisoviec, and I'm sure the

619
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: Daily Wire guys are in it now, are like advertising

620
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: their storable foods companies and shit. The point of all this,

621
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: all right wing messaging, all far right messaging, starts as

622
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: a grift. It all starts with a product to sell. That's,

623
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: by the way, how guns became so enmeshed with the

624
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: far right right. A lot of gun companies realize that

625
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: like Americans only need so many guns for like reasonable

626
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: self defense and hunting and even even recreational purposes. There's

627
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: only so many guns a man could shoot at a time.

628
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: But you can really get people to stockpile shit like

629
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: crazy if you convince them they're like preparing to be

630
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: gorilla fighters in a future civil war. And so and

631
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: a lot of these like gun tuber influencers, that's kind

632
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: of where they increasingly went because that's where the money was.

633
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: And so this becomes more and more of a part

634
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: of right wing politics because a lot of people on

635
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: the right have a lot of money to be made

636
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: in messaging this kind of stuff and selling this kind

637
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: of stuff. The same thing is true with the civil warshit.

638
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: It's true with these like fears that the government. You know,

639
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: we can sell you storable food, we can sell you

640
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: fucking bunkers. All of this stuff comes out of some

641
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: sort of financial grift. And the biggest thing that most

642
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: of the people involved in this are hoping for. Fucking

643
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: Jack Pisobiec doesn't want to be fucking hiding underground getting

644
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: bombed by the US Air Force. Jack Pisobiec wants to

645
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: make another million dollars off of affiliate sales of bullshit, Right,

646
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: that's what And a lot of these people, these guys

647
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: doing this caravans to the borders, they're not planning on

648
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,239
Speaker 2: spending their own money on gas. They're hoping that they

649
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: can crowdfund a shitload of money. And I'm sure one

650
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: of them will steal all of it and run away, Right,

651
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: That's what usually happens with this kind of shit. But

652
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: that's what they're all hoping to do. And so that's

653
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: kind of the over if you want to actually hurt them,

654
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: if you're looking at where do we how do we

655
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 2: draw a strategic victory out of this, find a way

656
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: to damage their ability to profit off of this shit.

657
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: And I do think part of it is not making

658
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: this as big a story as that otherwise might be.

659
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: But that's not simply enough, because the right is large

660
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: enough that just through their media hyping this up, they

661
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: can make a decent amount of money off this stuff.

662
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: So more complex solutions are needed.

663
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I do think we should probably discuss like the

664
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 5: potential of Abbot using this in a personal like later

665
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 5: our presidential run, right, Like, yeah, he's in New Delhi

666
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 5: at the moment.

667
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 3: Have you seen here?

668
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 2: He's a New Delhi hanging out with everybody's favorite pseudo

669
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 2: dictator of India Modi.

670
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, like Abbott trying to build this kind of like

671
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 5: electoral alliance and international alliance for like fascist like Wolfenstein

672
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 5: America is is. I think like it's concerning because like

673
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 5: Trump has a lot of baggage and I think obviously

674
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 5: he has a great degree of personal support switching in

675
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 5: the primaries. But if they don't make if they don't

676
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 5: stick the landing with Trump, I think Abbot is waiting

677
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 5: in the wings to make that perhaps the more competent

678
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 5: fascists than Trump and make an attempt at running for

679
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 5: the presidency.

680
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 3: Not good anything else to say, fuck.

681
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 4: All of them, Yeah, that's it. Sure, But okay, So

682
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 4: the other thing that you actually can do about this

683
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 4: is that look, this bullshit, all of this stuff is

684
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 4: going to continue until there's actually some kind of sustained

685
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 4: attack by the left on like politically on the border regime.

686
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 6: Right.

687
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 4: That was a thing that when I when I was like,

688
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 4: you know, when I was like like coming up like

689
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, twenty eight, and we were doing right,

690
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 4: there was Occupy Ice. There was like there were massed demonstrations,

691
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 4: there was like critical pleasure being applied, and we didn't

692
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 4: go far enough. Part of the reason we didn't go

693
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 4: far enough is a lot of people fucking a lot

694
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 4: of very optimistic political groups, like including like PSL et cetera,

695
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 4: et cetera, like hijacked a lot of these things and

696
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 4: pulled people off of occupations. But you know, there was

697
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 4: actually there were there have been periods in my lifetime,

698
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 4: like not that long ago, where there was actually forward

699
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,479
Speaker 4: progress being made about this ship to the point where

700
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 4: like even that we're like the Democrats were trying to

701
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 4: co opt it, and it doesn't fucking have to be

702
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 4: like this, Like we don't. We don't have to have

703
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 4: hundreds of people fucking dying at the border every year.

704
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 4: We don't have to have people in open air fucking prisons.

705
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be like this. We can fight

706
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 4: them and we can win, but it requires actually like

707
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 4: it requires actually going and fighting, and you know, you

708
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 4: have you have to you have to actually be willing

709
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 4: to do this. You have to be willing to commit

710
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 4: to the organizing. But if we don't, if we just

711
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 4: keep leaving all of this ship to like just the

712
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 4: literal howling fascists and then Biden who is like it,

713
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 4: like on on the border doing the same thing but

714
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 4: not being but not like howling about it. Yeah, yeah,

715
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 4: you know, like this this this, this country is going

716
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 4: to go into fucking oblivion and we are we are going,

717
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 4: like you're you're going to see in your lifetime the

718
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 4: US government shooting people on the board like with machine guns.

719
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 6: Right.

720
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 4: If we don't stop this fucking now, that is that

721
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 4: is what you are going to live to see. And

722
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 4: it does not. We don't. We don't have to. We

723
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 4: don't have to live in that world. But you have

724
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 4: to act now.

725
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's a great Like it is also

726
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 5: within our power to like, there is not a voting option,

727
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 5: but there is always a mutual aid option at the border.

728
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 5: And I know I bang on about this, but like,

729
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 5: if you are within range of the border, you can

730
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 5: go and help. If you're not, there are migrant communities

731
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 5: in your city, in your town who need your help.

732
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 5: And like, the way we get through to our boomer

733
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 5: uncles and Facebook ants and stuff is by showing them

734
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 5: that migrants are people with stories who are just the

735
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 5: same as you, and they just want a chance to

736
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 5: raise their kids someone where they're not going to get

737
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 5: fucking killed by a car bomb. And that the more

738
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 5: human interactions more people going to have with migrants, and

739
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 5: the more stories we can tell that's center migrants as people,

740
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 5: artest numbers or tsunami or any fg humanizing gretoric like,

741
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 5: the more likely we are to take the teeth out

742
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 5: of this. And that's something that all of us can do. Yes,

743
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 5: all right, So that's a good thing to end on.

744
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: And obviously by our storable foods, go to pissing my

745
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: Pants dried Foods dot net and use promo code Robert

746
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: Evans says the apocalypse is coming. It's a very long

747
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 2: promo code, but you will get Actually it increases the

748
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,439
Speaker 2: price by fifteen percent, but please do it anyway. Yeah,

749
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: well we get more money. That's gonna be it for

750
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 2: us here, And it could happen here until next time.

751
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, go to sleep with dreams of a

752
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 2: jdam taking out Greg Abbott right in the Austin Capitol Building.

753
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: Just bam baby. It won't happen, but it is a

754
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: funny thing to think about.

755
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 4: Welcome to Dick It Happened Here, a podcast that is

756
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 4: in no small part about the increasing and escalating series

757
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 4: of anti trans laws being passed around the country. It's

758
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 4: another one of those episodes. Things are getting worse, things

759
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 4: are also getting weird. And with me to talk about

760
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 4: worse and weird is Kay and Lee from Health Liberation

761
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 4: Now welcome to the show.

762
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 7: Yeah.

763
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 4: I'm excited to talk to you both because, Okay, very

764
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 4: very odd stuff has been happening. So the main reason

765
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 4: I wanted to have Eat You on is to talk

766
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 4: about the stuff that's been happening in Ohio. So for

767
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 4: people who are unaware, Ohio's legislature has been trying to

768
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 4: pass a very draconian ban on all gender firmcare for minors.

769
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 4: The States Republican governor vetoed the bill, and this was

770
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 4: for about one day. There was a lot of sort

771
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 4: of like liberal cheering about like ah a compassionate Republicans,

772
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 4: blah blah blah blah. And then immediately after that, like

773
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 4: like like the next day, when all of all of

774
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 4: us we haven't even like we hadn't even really gotten

775
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 4: into the weight hold on, He's going to do something else.

776
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: Uh.

777
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 4: The thing that Dwine did is is you know, and

778
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 4: this is this is being framed as like an attempt

779
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 4: to stave off the veto, which hasn't worked so far.

780
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 4: But he immediately implemented a bunch of rules that say

781
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 4: that in order to get gender firming care, and this

782
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 4: is true of both minors and adults, which makes it

783
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 4: in a lot of ways more draconian than the actual bill.

784
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 4: It's quote unquote supposed to be preventing like getting passed.

785
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 4: If you want to get gender refirming care, you need

786
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 4: recommendations from a psychiatrist, an endocrinologist, and a bioethicist. And

787
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 4: also all gender firmingcare in the state has to be

788
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 4: reported to the government, and there's like other stuff too.

789
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 4: So this is the technical term for this is this

790
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 4: is extremely bad.

791
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean he also signed an executive

792
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 1: order just banning surgery for everyone under eighteen too.

793
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 4: Yeah so yeah.

794
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean also I think I believe it was

795
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 1: like everyone under twenty one also had to go through

796
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: six months of counseling as well.

797
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 8: Yes, yeah, at least six months of counseling. Yeah, there's

798
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 8: no upper.

799
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 6: Cap mm hmm.

800
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: And like a lot of this was the wine and

801
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: his spokespeople have ended up like justifying a lot of this,

802
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: like trying to use language from clinicians working at clinics

803
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: in Ohio that see trans youth and be like, well,

804
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: you know, they're taking this comprehensive multidisciplinary approach, and most

805
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 1: of the people they see like get counseling instead of

806
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,800
Speaker 1: medical transitions. So they're actually like using a lot of

807
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 1: the testimony against the band to try to justify these

808
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: rules and regulations. And I don't think they're acting in

809
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: good faith because when you actually like look up the

810
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: details are like, well, this would basically make it almost

811
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: impossible for anyone at any age to transition. But it's

812
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: like you know, it's a very sneaky smart move right,

813
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: like being like, oh, look, we're trying to find a compromise.

814
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: We're trying to make sure everyone gets good healthcare. And

815
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: you know, unfortunately sometimes liberals and liberal media i'll just

816
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: kind of eat that up without really looking at the details.

817
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, And one of the things that's happening here too

818
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 4: is that so the US, where in places where there's

819
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 4: pretty good access to gender a firming healthcare, it works

820
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 4: off of something called informed consent. And informed consent is

821
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 4: like okay, so you go there, they tell you what

822
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 4: is going to happen, and you talk, you talk to

823
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 4: like a nurse or a doctor, and then once you

824
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 4: know the like what you're actually getting into, you say

825
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 4: yes or no if you want to do something right.

826
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 4: And you know, this is a this is a pretty

827
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 4: good system. It still can be really annoying to navigate

828
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 4: because of insurance stuff, and you know, like there's definitely

829
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 4: problems with it, but it's a it's a much better

830
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 4: system than exists in a lot of places. And you know,

831
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 4: I think there have been two sets of comparisons about

832
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 4: what these restrictions look like. And we're going to get

833
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 4: to the comparisons to uh tart restrictions on abortion in

834
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 4: a second, But I want to talk about another thing

835
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 4: that these restrictions strike me as very similar to, which

836
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 4: is the British system. And the way the British system

837
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 4: works is you get put on a wait list and

838
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 4: then you die, or you go to our media like

839
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: those are those are your options?

840
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 9: Right?

841
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 4: Or or you're really wealthy and you can you can

842
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 4: bypass the public healthcare system and go to the private

843
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 4: healthcare system. But you know, like I hope, like I

844
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 4: hope you are like the air to mansion before you

845
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 4: start that process, or you're in serious trouble. The thing

846
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 4: about the British system is there's all of these paths

847
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 4: of interlocking experts. You have to go through it every

848
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 4: single you have to get signatures from every single one

849
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 4: of them. And what this means is you have this enormous,

850
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 4: sort of interminable British gender bureaucracy whose only job and

851
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 4: only the only thing they want to do is stop

852
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 4: you from getting healthcare. There's a very very good Philosophy

853
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 4: Tube episode about this about what it's actually like to

854
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 4: be in that system, and it's terrible, and this is

855
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 4: a this is what the kinds of things that are

856
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 4: being proposed here are. In a lot of they're it's

857
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 4: not exactly the same, it's the British system, but it's

858
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 4: it's bringing it much closer to that system where it's

859
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 4: basically impossible to get healthcare. And the thing about the

860
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 4: British system and about these restrictions where you know you

861
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 4: have to have like a bioethicistant, a psychiatrist and endocrinologist

862
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 4: and you have to like do all you have to

863
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 4: jump through all of these troops, is that at every

864
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 4: single point in the pri there is another gender bureaucrat

865
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 4: who can just by themself decide that they're just doing

866
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 4: a trans healthcare band. And you know, every every individual

867
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 4: person you put into the process is another person who

868
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 4: could just say no. And that's what the bridge system works,

869
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 4: is that someone in the process just says no and

870
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 4: you die in a wait list. Yeah.

871
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we know trans people in Britain and in

872
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: other European countries where they have like a lot of gatekeeping,

873
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: and you know, all of them have warned us like

874
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: you do not want this coming to the US. Yeah,

875
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: you know, reminding us like all the time, like how

876
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: much easier. Are a lot of US trans people have

877
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: it in terms of accessing healthcare, and just like, yeah,

878
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: I mean everything I've heard about, like the UK healthcare

879
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: system sounds like nightmarish. People asking invasive questions about like

880
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: your sexuality or your trauma history or for youth that

881
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: often ends up like involving like genital inspections for some reason,

882
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: it just sounds like a horrible, dehumanizing, violating experience. And

883
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 1: then yeah, like a lot of people like spend years,

884
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: years and years if they you know, and are lucky

885
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: if they do it, are able to access care. A

886
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: lot of people have to go private if they can

887
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 1: afford to.

888
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 8: Honestly, before, I mean technically it was during but before

889
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 8: the full like onslaught of bills started to hit the US,

890
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 8: Like there were Brits that were trying to sound the

891
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 8: alarm and get the message out to US base.

892
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, like it was.

893
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: Around when the Currabell ruling happened. Crabelle was a d

894
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 1: trans woman who's later was affiliated with the ADF, with

895
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: the British branch of Alliance depending Freedom, which is behind

896
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: a lot of the It's like an international Christian nationalist

897
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: organization that's behind a lot of the healthcare bands in

898
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: the US as well, also the abortion birth control. Yeah,

899
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: really nasty people. But anyway, so like Currabell, this d

900
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: trends woman, It's like she sued.

901
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 6: The NHS.

902
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: For allowing her to transition and originally like won her

903
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 1: case and that led to basically.

904
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 10: Like the end of.

905
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 6: Transitioning for you. Yeah, she submitted a judicial review.

906
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:21,760
Speaker 8: The initial review was favorable to her, but upon further review,

907
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 8: the appeals did end up overturning it. But by that point,

908
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 8: the damage had already been done. Yeah, a bunch of

909
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 8: people were starting to lose access to care, and the

910
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,399
Speaker 8: likes and the wheels were starting to spin internally as

911
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 8: well in terms of the Tavistock system and so like.

912
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 8: As a result, like the wait lists just ended up

913
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 8: getting longer and.

914
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 6: Longer and longer.

915
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 1: So that was like a huge blow that happened in

916
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: the UK and like UK trails people like basically like

917
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: by that point, it starting trying to warn people in

918
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: the US like this is going to come for you too, Yeah,

919
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: like get ready, like they had already been already been

920
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: like suffering under this like no anti transplants for a while,

921
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: and they knew it was going to spread down the

922
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: borders of the UK, and unfortunately it has.

923
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 6: Yeah.

924
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 8: In like the very early stages of our project, when

925
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 8: we launched at the beginning of twenty twenty one, almost

926
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 8: immediately after the Carabell initial ruling, we hosted a transcript

927
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,919
Speaker 8: of a podcast from Blood and Turf that was trying

928
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 8: to deliver this message over to US based comrades, and

929
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 8: unfortunately it does not appear to have reached as many

930
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 8: people as it really needed to. But we do have

931
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 8: that available in the event that people can still learn

932
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 8: from it, because this onslot is not going to stop.

933
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not.

934
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think one of the things that we're

935
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 4: seeing now is that we're now seeing kind of an

936
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 4: opening of new fronts in a way where you have,

937
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 4: in the same state at the same time you have

938
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 4: both what I guess I would call the American style

939
00:48:55,400 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 4: approach of just straight up bands and then this kind

940
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 4: of an attempt to implement this sort of British like,

941
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 4: you know, attempt to implement this sort of like British

942
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 4: ender bureaucracy system. And one of the things that's been

943
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 4: happening with this is, you know, Okay, so there's a

944
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 4: lot of places where there's inspirations coming for this, and

945
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 4: I think, you know, we mentioned it briefly earlier. One

946
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 4: of the inspirations for this is obviously parp restrictions on abortion,

947
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,879
Speaker 4: where you have these like unbelievably restricted like basically these

948
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 4: targeted things. When before, before Roe v. Wade collapsed, there

949
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 4: was you know, you could you could ban abortions by

950
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 4: for example, you know, saying like passing a bill that

951
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 4: says that, like, okay, if you want to do abortions

952
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 4: in a hospital, the walls in the hallways have to

953
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 4: be like exactly like this diameter, which is not the

954
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 4: same diameter as like as as normal hospital walls are.

955
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 4: So now you can't do abortions in hospitals, And so

956
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 4: they do things like this, right, and this is you know,

957
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 4: and this has been a huge problem for a long time.

958
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 4: Answer anti abortion activists have been talking about it for ages.

959
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 4: The Democrat Party did nothing. So you know, that's I think,

960
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 4: I think it's sort of like forwarding of where this

961
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 4: is going.

962
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 8: Yeah, a direct parallel is actually over in Arizona, if

963
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 8: I remember correctly, because one of the things that they

964
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 8: ended up doing down in Arizona is a requirement that

965
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:38,439
Speaker 8: they tried to implement was this rather controversial piece where

966
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 8: they also had to provide information on abortion reversals using

967
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 8: certain types.

968
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 6: Of hormone care.

969
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 8: Right, similar to how in order for people to be

970
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 8: able to provide gender firming care they have to provide

971
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 8: information about detransition and stuff like that. But when you

972
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 8: actually start to look at some of the data, not

973
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 8: all of it, but it's some of the data that

974
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 8: they are relying on to inform people of this, it

975
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 8: is a wildly biased sample or just downright pseudoscience. Right, Like,

976
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 8: they looked at the evidence base for the abortion reversals

977
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 8: and it didn't actually work the way that they were

978
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 8: saying it was, and it was actually coming from very

979
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 8: very very.

980
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 6: Explicitly motivated groups. Right.

981
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 8: So, Yeah, like abortion has been difficult to access in

982
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 8: Arizona for a very long time in part because of

983
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 8: some of these like obnoxious requirements that people end up

984
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 8: putting into place through trap laws.

985
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, I think it's it's worth noting that, like,

986
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 4: and this is true of both the anti trans bands

987
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 4: and the and anti abortion legislation, is that, like it's

988
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 4: the science, they're just making it up. A lot of

989
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 4: the time, Like, you know, one of the like one

990
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 4: of the very famous things is these like fetal heartbeat

991
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 4: bills that required like and the thing about like fetal

992
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 4: heartbeat bills is that fetuses don't have heartbeats. You're not

993
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 4: hearing a heartbeat, Like doctors will like force you to

994
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 4: listen to this. It's like that it's not what's happening.

995
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 4: It's literally not a heartbeat. But these people, like they

996
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 4: put a stethoscope to a women's chest and heard a

997
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 4: beating and we're like, oh shit, it's the baby's heart.

998
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 4: And it's like, no, it doesn't have a heart, Like wait,

999
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 4: this is a fetus, Like what are you even talking about?

1000
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 4: But you know, and this kind of stuff, right is

1001
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 4: you know, they're they're they're they're basically they're they're doing

1002
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 4: just scientific malpractice, right, They're straight up lying to people,

1003
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 4: and then they're using that as a justification for you know,

1004
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 4: actual legislation which has sort of material impact and like

1005
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 4: you know, carries the force of the law behind it.

1006
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 6: Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

1007
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 4: And we've been seeing a lot of very similar kinds

1008
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 4: of things from from these anti trans legislation and one

1009
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 4: of one of the ways that they've been able to

1010
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 4: use sort of pseudoscience, it's to get restrictions on healthcare past.

1011
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 4: And this is true both of sort of the straight

1012
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 4: up bands and also of these kind of like massive

1013
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 4: bureaucratic restrictions, is by allying with groups of sort of

1014
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 4: right wing de transitioners. And we're going to talk about

1015
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 4: that more after this AD break, because we unfortunately are

1016
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 4: reliant on ads to cover this stuff. So yeah, here's ads. Okay,

1017
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 4: we are back, and this is the point where we

1018
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 4: need to talk about the stuff in the Ohio story

1019
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 4: that is very weird. Now. I think if people have

1020
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 4: been following the story of sort of anti trans bills,

1021
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 4: one of the things that's been happening a lot is

1022
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 4: there's been this sort of there's there's a network of

1023
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 4: people who de transitioned for various reasons I don't know,

1024
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 4: who have become very very hardline right wingers who have

1025
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 4: basically been doing like circuits of of the capitals of

1026
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 4: you know, like state capitals and like going to Capitol

1027
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 4: Hill and like telling their quote unquote stories to try

1028
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 4: to get this to try to get like all trans

1029
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 4: healthcare bands. Now, so this is you know, this is

1030
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 4: something we've covered on the show in the past. What

1031
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 4: is very weird about Ohio is that you had a

1032
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 4: group of these right wing transitioners who specifically we're trying

1033
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 4: to get it looked like at very at least we're

1034
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 4: trying to get or trying to stop the like the

1035
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 4: actual uh like gender firming care ban from going through,

1036
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 4: and we're in favor of more of this restriction stuff.

1037
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 4: Is that is that?

1038
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 10: Is that?

1039
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 4: What am I getting this right?

1040
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 6: Not not exactly. There's a couple of.

1041
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 4: No, okay roles. Sorry, I'm I.

1042
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:05,479
Speaker 8: I can provide my my brief description here real quick,

1043
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 8: and then you can retake aspects of that stuff. Because

1044
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 8: something to bear in mind is the fact that, like

1045
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 8: some of the opposition in the Ohio testimonies are actually

1046
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 8: coming from people who view themselves as very left wing.

1047
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 8: They are radical feminists. Specifically, they are just hardcore opposed.

1048
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say they're they're they're actual politics

1049
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: for a reactionary even yea, they call themselves left wing.

1050
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 1: They see themselves as being opposed to the right, like

1051
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: that's how they present themselves, and they definitely believe that

1052
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 1: they're anti right wing.

1053
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 6: But there's there's also another component. This one is like.

1054
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 8: The nuances are sometimes almost impossible to be able to

1055
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 8: tease out. I swear tomato tomato. But one of the

1056
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 8: people who was a proponent for both this current bill

1057
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,959
Speaker 8: and a past bill is actually Corona Cone, who doesn't

1058
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 8: not consider herself to be right wing, though she does

1059
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,760
Speaker 8: appear to be working with a number of right wing people.

1060
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 8: She considers herself to be quote unquote libertarian. Now, this

1061
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 8: is a red flag for those of us who have

1062
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 8: done any sort of like real engagement with certain types

1063
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 8: of libertarians or political organizing or whatever in that if

1064
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 8: you actually pay attention to some of the arguments that

1065
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 8: are being made or the collaborations that are being made,

1066
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 8: you can generally tell which direction their politics are truly

1067
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 8: leaning towards right?

1068
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 6: Is it left wing? Is it right wing? And hers

1069
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,439
Speaker 6: have been steering far and far more right wing.

1070
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 8: Like she uses the excuse of, you know, I want

1071
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 8: small government and stuff like that, but if you're working

1072
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 8: with like legislators to put in full on bands, I'm sorry, honey,

1073
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 8: that's not small government.

1074
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 6: That's not small government.

1075
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 8: That is the opposite of small government, truly, and so

1076
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 8: like like it's kind of hard to sort of like

1077
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 8: encapsulate the entirety of like the proponents of the opposition

1078
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 8: into particular political alignments, because a lot of it is

1079
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 8: really based off of like what are their motivations and

1080
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 8: who are they willing to work with?

1081
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 6: Which again, tomato tomato.

1082
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 8: But I'll have to come back to the Corona Cone

1083
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 8: one at some point here too, because that one is

1084
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 8: actually an important timeline in terms of understanding the Ohio bills.

1085
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 6: Mm hmm, yeah, I mean basically, I mean you have

1086
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 6: like these, You do have like right wing beast.

1087
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: Transition people like Chloe Cole or Christian Boseley, Laura Becker

1088
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: who like do you know they they'll be hanging out

1089
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: with like the Heritage Foundation or Billboard Chris or the

1090
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 1: Cue Shop yeah, or Our Duty like and they very

1091
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: much are just working to try to pass these full

1092
00:57:58,400 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: on bands.

1093
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 6: But then yeah, you have also these.

1094
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 1: Like d trans Turf and they're more liberal fellow travelers

1095
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: who definitely see themselves as being opposed to the right

1096
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: and are opposed to I mean, they they're opposed to

1097
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: the right because they see right wing Christians as being

1098
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: a threat to them as well, and are at least

1099
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: smart enough to understand that if you know, right wing

1100
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: Christians have their way, they're going to suffer too.

1101
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 6: But they also want to end trans healthcare or restrict it.

1102
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 6: I mean some of the.

1103
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: Two of the people who helped organize, helped collect the testimony,

1104
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: the group statement that was submitted under the name Are

1105
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 1: you asking why Max and Katie Robinson they have ties

1106
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 1: to Janice Raymond? Dead serious, Yeah they do. Janie Raymond

1107
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: help publish Max Robinson's book It over at Spinefects Press,

1108
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: this swurf and turf publisher.

1109
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 6: So yeah, they they're not actually a pro.

1110
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 4: Trans like, yeah, well we should we should, so Janice

1111
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 4: Raymond for people who, uh, someone we've we've talked about

1112
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 4: on the show a few times. But Jennie Raymond wrote

1113
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 4: a book called The Transsexual Empire, and okay, so people

1114
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 4: normally leave off the subtitle of it, which is called

1115
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 4: It's the Transsexual Empire. The Making of the she mail.

1116
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 4: It's like one of the original like original anti trans people,

1117
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 4: like incredibly violent transfo like like both both in terms

1118
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 4: of like the career of her work, like physically like

1119
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 4: violently anti trans and yeah, yeah she is. She is

1120
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 4: connected to a lot of the modern anti trans groups

1121
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 4: and also the modern like the modern I don't know

1122
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 4: what you call them, people who are attempting to take

1123
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 4: away trans healthcare but who don't see themselves as anti trans.

1124
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 6: I have no idea how to even summarize that.

1125
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, bad, I don't know.

1126
00:59:55,360 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: I kind of yes, yeah, yeah, so like I mean yeah,

1127
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: and I mean yeah, Max and Kitty fully endorse Janice

1128
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 1: Raymond's theories.

1129
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 6: I mean Janice Raymond.

1130
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 1: One of the things she's famous for is saying that like,

1131
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: like transsexualism should be morally mandate out of existence, like

1132
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: Max Robinson has said that she supports that. They also

1133
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 1: both I mean Janice Raymond focused heavily on transom and overall,

1134
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 1: and you know, also claim that basically like trans women were,

1135
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 1: you know, committing sexual assault against women just for existing. Yeah,

1136
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: Max and Kitty are also horrible transpasogenists to actually make

1137
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 1: I mean, Kitty makes a lot of propaganda tracking attacking

1138
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: transomen and trying to cast all trans women as predators

1139
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: and yeah, just not people you want on your side,

1140
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 1: because they're not. They're danger to all trans people. They're

1141
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: just like trying to find a way to influence trans

1142
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 1: healthcare in a different way. And I mean, I I'm

1143
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 1: concerned that people will hear like, oh, look at all

1144
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 1: these deeds, like these supposedly trans friendly d trans people

1145
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: who testified against the SPAN, not realizing that these are

1146
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: actually like purse with an agenda.

1147
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 6: Who I mean part of them.

1148
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: Part of what they want to do is to infiltrate

1149
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: like queer and trans subcultures and promo like profideology and

1150
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: recruit people like let's put it this way.

1151
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 8: So Max Robinson in terms of some of her beliefs

1152
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 8: refers to medical transition for like trans masculine folks as

1153
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 8: a sato ritual, going back to Mary daily types of

1154
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 8: descriptions of things. And then Kitty was one of the

1155
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 8: people that was interviewed for and gave extensive background information

1156
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 8: for a BBC article that was released. I believe it

1157
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 8: was called something along the lines of we are being

1158
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 8: pressured into sex by some trans women, which is basically yes,

1159
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 8: that one right, Like so yeah, being into this narrative

1160
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 8: that trans women are sexual predators right into the British

1161
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 8: media when they were already having a massive influx of

1162
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 8: anti trans media that was again feeding into the demonization

1163
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 8: of trans people as a whole, but then also like

1164
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 8: controlling trans youth and the likes. And of course this

1165
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 8: article not only did it end up originally platforming like

1166
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 8: an actual like serial rape.

1167
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, Lily kaid like someone someone a serial rapist so

1168
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 4: prolific that like, within like maybe thirty minutes of this

1169
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 4: article going up, like multiple like probably like a dozen

1170
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 4: people had come forward and been like she raped me,

1171
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 4: Like that is the person that the BBC was like

1172
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 4: coming forward to do this shit with.

1173
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, she ended up posting basically a manifesto on her

1174
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 8: website that was even more extreme than aspects of the

1175
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 8: article showed off. And then I will also note that

1176
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 8: this article was originally I believe it was only translated

1177
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 8: into Portuguese in order to be oh yeah, moved into

1178
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 8: BBC still zilla yeah yeah, which is also one of

1179
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 8: the countries that has one of the highest rates of

1180
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 8: trans femicide. So like, yeah, these these are the people

1181
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 8: that decided to go ahead and testify. Yeah, Like, well,

1182
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 8: I'm those of personally bring up Max and Kitty because

1183
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 8: like they were some of the people who helped like

1184
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 8: get the testimonies. Like I found a post on Kitty's

1185
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 8: Tumblr blog looking for d trans and Desisted women who

1186
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 8: were willing to testify against a ban, and then Max

1187
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 8: was the one who actually submitted the collective statement from

1188
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 8: Arius and Wise. He also submitted an individual statement to

1189
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 8: So basically like they found a bunch of like de

1190
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 8: trans and desisted turfs on Tumblr to sign a statement

1191
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 8: and then submit to like the state of Ohio, which is.

1192
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 6: Kind of wild to think about.

1193
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, you don't normally expect to see testimony from turf Tumblr,

1194
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 8: let alone transfer Tumblr.

1195
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 6: But that is, like that really happened. Yeah, really, who

1196
01:03:57,840 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 6: you want to show up for you?

1197
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1198
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 4: Really really not good in terms of who you want

1199
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 4: doing your legislation, Like oh god, yeah yeah. So okay,

1200
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 4: we need to take another ad break and then we

1201
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 4: will come back and talk more about this. So enjoy

1202
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 4: your brief capitalistic respite from the horror of capitalism.

1203
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 3: We are back.

1204
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 8: In order to properly understand the situation in Ohio, you

1205
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 8: kind of have to go back several years, right. One

1206
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 8: of the bills that ended up being proposed in twenty

1207
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 8: twenty was HB five to one three. This was another

1208
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 8: version of a proposed ban on gender firming care for

1209
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 8: trans youth in particular, and it was sponsored by Representatives

1210
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 8: Ron Hood and Bill Dean. This one is interesting because

1211
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 8: one of the groups that ended up coming out in

1212
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 8: opposition to it was the Gendercare Consumer Advocacy Network. This

1213
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 8: is the organization that I helped found in twenty nineteen

1214
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 8: prior to my resignation. They submitted this opposition after my resignation,

1215
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 8: but it is available on archives. Then in twenty twenty

1216
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 8: one and the twenty twenty two legislative session, there was

1217
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 8: the proposal for HP four or five four, which was

1218
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 8: another proposed ban on gender for main care for trans youth.

1219
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 8: This time it was being sponsored by Representative Gary Klick,

1220
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 8: who was also the sponsor of the current bill that

1221
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 8: had recently been vetoed. And then the V two vtwed

1222
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 8: And in May of twenty twenty two, the Gendercare Consumer

1223
01:05:54,000 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 8: Advocacy Network or GCCAM testified in tentative support. The testimony

1224
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 8: was submitted by coronicone and included suggestions for amendments. These

1225
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 8: amendments are actually very important. One of the amendments that

1226
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 8: she recommended was on data tracking. I believe it says

1227
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 8: here the second amendment would be a requirement for physicians

1228
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 8: mental health care providers and other medical healthcare professionals, mandating

1229
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 8: an annual report to the Ohio Department of Health the number,

1230
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 8: age and sex of minor patients who are receiving gender

1231
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 8: transition services of any type. This was what she originally

1232
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 8: proposed as an amendment to the bill. The bill again

1233
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 8: did not end up passing. But now we are seeing

1234
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 8: HB sixty eight, which is the one that merges the

1235
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 8: ban on gender firming care for trans youth and a

1236
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 8: sports ban because I guess, you know, trans youth plane

1237
01:06:55,880 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 8: chess is somehow like threatening. So this one was again

1238
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 8: represented like sponsored by Representative Click, and this time, curiously enough,

1239
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:11,520
Speaker 8: Karina had been working more extensively with Click during various

1240
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 8: portions of the.

1241
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,200
Speaker 6: Of the push for the bill. Right you know, she testified.

1242
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 8: Multiple times she's posted videos with him, pictures, et cetera.

1243
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 8: Another person who had originally founded the organization, Carrie Callahan,

1244
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 8: did originally start opposing. Curiously, she did not note her

1245
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 8: prior experience with the organization, but she did start to

1246
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 8: oppose the bill and then later starts to put out

1247
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 8: basically like a more.

1248
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 6: General call for opposition to HB sixty eight.

1249
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 8: Right you know, trying to collect in you know, various

1250
01:07:55,040 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 8: types of detransitioned people who were opposed to bands on

1251
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 8: gender affirming care right.

1252
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 6: And then who is it that ends up showing up.

1253
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 6: It's this weird little like.

1254
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 8: Turf group that originally came out of the trans Turf

1255
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 8: Tumbler in twenty thirteen, that historically speaking, she had prior

1256
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 8: working relationships with and even presented their stories to us path.

1257
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also I mean Max Robinson too, like both her,

1258
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: both Max Robinson and Carrie Callahan were both featured in

1259
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: Jesse Single's Atlantic article too. There's lots of points of connection.

1260
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,919
Speaker 1: They've they've known each other since at least twenty sixteen,

1261
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:48,799
Speaker 1: and you know, work together.

1262
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 8: Like I can't say for certain how it is that

1263
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 8: they ended up there personally, to me, it seems a

1264
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 8: little weird that people who had prior working relationships dating

1265
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 8: back a decade are showing up in the same place again,

1266
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:15,480
Speaker 8: and like they are also showing up in legislative testimony

1267
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,640
Speaker 8: for the first time in the state where some like

1268
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 8: one of the central figures for a long time there

1269
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 8: is putting out a call to oppose this particular bill.

1270
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 8: Like the coincidences are racking up a little bit here,

1271
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 8: it might be good to ask some further questions about

1272
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 8: what exactly happened, because I have some questions. So you know,

1273
01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 8: this happened in December of twenty twenty three.

1274
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 4: Right.

1275
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:49,200
Speaker 8: Eventually Governor Dwine goes ahead and vetos, but at the

1276
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 8: same time he makes his you know, proposal for the

1277
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 8: drafting of new regulations with you know, the Department of

1278
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 8: Health and the likes and within that is the suggestion

1279
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 8: of detailed data tracking that is reported to the Department

1280
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 8: of Health and then to the general public every six months,

1281
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 8: focusing on things like, you know, I don't think that

1282
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:24,639
Speaker 8: he wanted to focus on like the number of people

1283
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 8: that were doing it, but he did include a like

1284
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 8: the nature of the diagnosis. It applies to all ages.

1285
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 8: It was not originally restricted to trans youth, like the

1286
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 8: original testimony was from from gc CAN. The time range

1287
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,679
Speaker 8: was also ended up being like it's shortened. He wants

1288
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 8: it every six months, not every year. But you know,

1289
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:53,560
Speaker 8: very similar kinds of things, right in terms of what

1290
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 8: it is that he is proposing for this mass collection

1291
01:10:57,160 --> 01:11:01,519
Speaker 8: of data. And a previous testimony was submitted to the

1292
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 8: Ohio Legislature in fact, Like, not long after that fact,

1293
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:12,400
Speaker 8: representative clique ended up going on an interview with Tony

1294
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:16,280
Speaker 8: Perkins of Family Research Council talking about the pending veto.

1295
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 8: They originally did this interview on January ninth, and he

1296
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:26,000
Speaker 8: noted that the data collection suggestion was originally included in

1297
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:30,080
Speaker 8: a draft version of his bill, but was removed due

1298
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:34,320
Speaker 8: to opposition, and so he's glad actually that that was included,

1299
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:38,200
Speaker 8: although he wished that there would be even more restrictions.

1300
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 8: He actually was going to encourage the governor to also

1301
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:45,759
Speaker 8: sign an executive order banning the use of puberty blockers,

1302
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 8: not just surgery. As far as I can tell, that

1303
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 8: has not happened, but he did say that he was

1304
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 8: going to try.

1305
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 6: But like.

1306
01:11:55,040 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 8: It's like there's there's definitely some weird kind of like

1307
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:05,080
Speaker 8: escalations that end up happening, and some of the like

1308
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 8: some of the interconnecting threads with individuals that again just

1309
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:13,639
Speaker 8: happened to keep showing up in the same place over

1310
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 8: and over and over again, either in support or in opposition.

1311
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 8: Some folks have been consistently opposed, whereas other people have

1312
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 8: been kind of flip flopping. The GCCN organization is one

1313
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 8: of the ones that flip flopped. It originally opposed all bands,

1314
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 8: and then now all of a sudden, it's like, you know,

1315
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 8: the person that they are throwing out into these testimonies

1316
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 8: was arguing in favor of them, and then like you

1317
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:45,720
Speaker 8: know the quote unquote are you asking why collective? And

1318
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 8: to be fair, Carrie Callahan have also been firmly opposed

1319
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 8: to full on bands and the Christian right pretty much

1320
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:57,960
Speaker 8: from the beginning, though for very very very different reasons.

1321
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 1: I mean, some other opposition was, well, people will go

1322
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:03,280
Speaker 1: to like could go to other states where there's less restrictions,

1323
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,559
Speaker 1: Like no, the stuff we have you know, hiwas already

1324
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:11,280
Speaker 1: like has a lot of restrictions, and majority of trans

1325
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 1: youth like only get counseling and they don't get any

1326
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:16,639
Speaker 1: like none of them get surgery, and most of them,

1327
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 1: like only a very small number of them get puberty

1328
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 1: blockers or horrormones. So this should be like this should

1329
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:24,600
Speaker 1: be an example for the entire country. Like that was

1330
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 1: kind of Carrie Gallahan's take on things. And then like,

1331
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, a lot of the the more like

1332
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 1: the d transferfs, like the Robinson's or other members of

1333
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: our Usking Wives it's like, Okay, well they're opposed to

1334
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:41,640
Speaker 1: the Christian Right, and they recognize that, like if the

1335
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 1: Christian Right gains more power and is banning things, that's

1336
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 1: bad not just for trans people, but also for you know, cis,

1337
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:51,560
Speaker 1: lesbian and gay people and says women, and you know

1338
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:53,720
Speaker 1: it will end up hurting them too. So I mean,

1339
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:57,040
Speaker 1: even from a self preservation stance, they understand like why

1340
01:13:57,080 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 1: they should be opposed to the Christian Right, but they're

1341
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,840
Speaker 1: still if you actually read their testimony, a lot of

1342
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 1: them do make it clear that they're opposed to transition.

1343
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:08,160
Speaker 1: Like one one person called it like compared medical like

1344
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,600
Speaker 1: trans healthcare to like a hydra said that, like it

1345
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 1: would only be cutting off ahead like these aren't.

1346
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so a lot of them were, you know, we're.

1347
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:21,439
Speaker 1: Also kind of praising uh, you know, regulations like the

1348
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 1: group uh statement talks about like it's like, you know,

1349
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 1: shutting down clinics when improve anyone's quality of care. Ohio's

1350
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 1: existing programs are known for their moderation. Uh, they don't

1351
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 1: perform surgery on minors. Many clinics out of state do

1352
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:38,320
Speaker 1: a lota YadA.

1353
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 8: So Max Robinson's testimony also said similar but that she

1354
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:48,640
Speaker 8: had it on good word from an Ohio in.

1355
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 1: Right, I have yes, you had say I hear if

1356
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 1: I'm good authority from an Ohio in that pediatric gender

1357
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 1: clinics their prescribed hormones pretty sparingly and don't actually perform

1358
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 1: any underaged transition surgeries.

1359
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 6: Other states do, though, So there's like.

1360
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 1: This whole thing is like like there's still kind of

1361
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:11,280
Speaker 1: scaremongers like, oh, but these other states, like we're transition

1362
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 1: as a minor, those are bad, but they're still making

1363
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: it clear that the idea that people having easy access

1364
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 1: to transition, especially as youth, is like a.

1365
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 6: Bad thing in their minds.

1366
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:23,640
Speaker 1: I don't think we actually mentioned like how like if

1367
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 1: you actually look at the collective statement, that are you

1368
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 1: asking why issued?

1369
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:29,040
Speaker 6: And like who signed it?

1370
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,640
Speaker 1: Like a whole bunch of them didn't actually transition, Like

1371
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:34,840
Speaker 1: a lot of them are actually desisted, which means that

1372
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:39,800
Speaker 1: they like never actually medically transition. They considered transitioning or

1373
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 1: maybe socially transitioned, but then they decided not to medically transition,

1374
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:48,840
Speaker 1: possibly after you know, converting to anti transfeminism or the like.

1375
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 1: So it's just a bunch of people who like I

1376
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 1: decided not to transition. I'm desisted, like you know, testifying

1377
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 1: against a healthcare band. That's also like a kind of

1378
01:15:57,840 --> 01:15:59,720
Speaker 1: a classic strategy too. It is like they have a

1379
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 1: bunch of like dissisted people along mixed in with people

1380
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 1: who actually like transition and do transition to kind of

1381
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 1: like inflate the numbers.

1382
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:09,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is a standard. Yeah, this is very standard.

1383
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:11,040
Speaker 6: It's an old trick.

1384
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:14,000
Speaker 1: It's it's like, oh yeah, you're like okay, yeah, And

1385
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 1: then a bunch of them are also like saying the

1386
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:17,759
Speaker 1: ones who did like you know, transition and new transition,

1387
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 1: they're like emphasizing how they a few of them like

1388
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 1: are emphasizing how young they were when they transitioned and

1389
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 1: be transitioned.

1390
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 6: Again, not exactly, yeah, not exactly. Protraums.

1391
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:34,719
Speaker 8: This collective here with like pretty pretty explicit turf ties,

1392
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:39,320
Speaker 8: including some of them directly to Trannis. Raymond herself was

1393
01:16:39,479 --> 01:16:43,600
Speaker 8: the bulk of the opposition from de transitioned people to

1394
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 8: the bill. I should note, like that's fifteen signatures right there.

1395
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:50,760
Speaker 8: People are talking about like how there were nineteen people

1396
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 8: that were opposed, so fifteen of them were either like

1397
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 8: part of the recruitment or actively recruited on d trans

1398
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 8: turfed her.

1399
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then like at least five of them are

1400
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:06,439
Speaker 1: just assisted, they're not to transitioned. It's not clear about everyone,

1401
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:10,839
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, it's.

1402
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 6: It's weird.

1403
01:17:13,880 --> 01:17:14,320
Speaker 7: It's just.

1404
01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 6: It's really weird.

1405
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,799
Speaker 8: And it's also been really weird to see the media

1406
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:27,000
Speaker 8: just kind of take that testimony of theirs at face value.

1407
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:28,680
Speaker 6: That it's been a problem for a long time.

1408
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 1: It is like getting the media to actually sort of

1409
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:35,680
Speaker 1: like investigate or care about people's like political views or

1410
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 1: activism or actually kind of being like like sometimes like

1411
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:42,559
Speaker 1: I think, like I say, like the Basilon New York

1412
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:45,920
Speaker 1: Times story we were talking about before has Grace Litnski Smith,

1413
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 1: and they're.

1414
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:50,040
Speaker 6: Without saying that she was you know, affiliated with J. C.

1415
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:53,479
Speaker 6: Kan and she's like not just with the president, she

1416
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 6: was the president.

1417
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:54,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1418
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's like it's like, okay, she's just like

1419
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 1: represented as just like you know, as a deutns woman

1420
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:00,720
Speaker 1: without going into like she she's the head of this

1421
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 1: political organization, and that's just you know, this has happened,

1422
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:06,599
Speaker 1: this has been a problem for years.

1423
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1424
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:08,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1425
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 1: So it's just like, I mean, just a whole lot

1426
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 1: of different sketchy characters kind of came out for what's

1427
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 1: going on in Ohio. I mean you have like you know,

1428
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 1: Republicans and right wing Christians who just want to straight

1429
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:29,519
Speaker 1: up ban transition and move towards eliminating it for for

1430
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:32,439
Speaker 1: all trans people and workers, making it you know, as

1431
01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:35,479
Speaker 1: impossible for trans people to live in society as they can.

1432
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 1: And then you have kind of more like tricky Republicans

1433
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 1: like DeWine sort of like pretending to find some kind

1434
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 1: of compromise and be like, oh, we're just trying to

1435
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:52,040
Speaker 1: work for like more comprehensive healthcare that is just so

1436
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 1: everyone gets what they need, and like sort of like

1437
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 1: using some of the language that was used by clinicians

1438
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:01,160
Speaker 1: who are trying to fight against the and their testimony

1439
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:06,320
Speaker 1: and you know, trying to claim make these claims, but

1440
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:09,120
Speaker 1: if we actually look at the details, like the regulations

1441
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:12,759
Speaker 1: they're proposing would make it nearly impossible for anyone to transition,

1442
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: you know, both youth and adults. And then you have

1443
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:21,720
Speaker 1: like you know, these different medical professionals and kind of

1444
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:25,840
Speaker 1: more liberal transphobic d trans people who want more gatekeeping

1445
01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:29,880
Speaker 1: and regulation and control over trans people and are kind

1446
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 1: of like using de transition and transition regret as a

1447
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:38,599
Speaker 1: justification for that or praising being like, oh well, Ohio,

1448
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:42,320
Speaker 1: their youth clinics are already really good because they're very

1449
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:45,920
Speaker 1: cautious and they use therapy a lot more than they

1450
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 1: actually allow youth to medically transition.

1451
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:51,639
Speaker 6: I mean, that argument didn't seem to work out at all.

1452
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:54,639
Speaker 1: Instead, it sounds like the governor kind of was like, oh,

1453
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 1: two thirds of youth only get therapy instead of medical transition,

1454
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:01,600
Speaker 1: and we should do that for everyone.

1455
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:04,800
Speaker 6: It's like sort of like, you know.

1456
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:07,280
Speaker 1: If you propose restrictions, say oh, this is great, then

1457
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:09,000
Speaker 1: of course the people who are more extreme will just

1458
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 1: like take that and run with it.

1459
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 6: And then you know you have uh, you know, d

1460
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:19,440
Speaker 6: trans turfs showing up and testifying for their own weird reasons.

1461
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:23,320
Speaker 1: You know, probably because of their connections to carry Galahan,

1462
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:25,040
Speaker 1: but you know, this also is a chance for them

1463
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:27,640
Speaker 1: to sort of like you know, launder their image, make

1464
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:29,760
Speaker 1: it seem like, oh, look we're good, we're good d

1465
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 1: trans people.

1466
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:33,919
Speaker 6: We oppose the religious right, we're fighting against these bands.

1467
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 1: And then people who don't necessarily like know any better

1468
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 1: will like come here maybe right right, because this is

1469
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 1: like that's a strategy they often pretend to be more

1470
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 1: trans friendly than they really are to sort of like

1471
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:49,639
Speaker 1: draw people in or be able to like influence queer

1472
01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:52,719
Speaker 1: and trans communities and slowly slip in like crypto turf

1473
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:57,519
Speaker 1: ideology and recruit people or just space.

1474
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:02,280
Speaker 6: Yeah. So, I mean it's like there's just a whole

1475
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 6: lot of.

1476
01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:07,599
Speaker 1: Different you know, anti trans groups and individuals like stretching

1477
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:12,559
Speaker 1: from like paternalistic medical professionals who want more gaykeeping, who

1478
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:15,720
Speaker 1: want to restrict the number of people transitioning like all

1479
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:18,599
Speaker 1: the way to you know, like Christian nationalists you want

1480
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:18,840
Speaker 1: to just.

1481
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:20,280
Speaker 6: You know wipe us out completely.

1482
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:23,799
Speaker 1: And you know, not only h you know, are basically

1483
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:25,599
Speaker 1: at war with bodily autonomy in general.

1484
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:26,400
Speaker 6: They don't want anyway.

1485
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:27,840
Speaker 1: They want to be the ones to control what people

1486
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:29,600
Speaker 1: do with their bodies. Like they also want to you know,

1487
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 1: restrict reproductive care and abortion. It's all part of the

1488
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 1: same war, uh, just control people and assort their version

1489
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:43,000
Speaker 1: of authoritary in Christianity. And then you have you know, uh,

1490
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 1: you know, weird d trans turfs, and it's just like

1491
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:47,240
Speaker 1: all you kind of have to like understand like all

1492
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:49,639
Speaker 1: these different factions and how they sort of like interact

1493
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:52,120
Speaker 1: together and how you know, they try to.

1494
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,599
Speaker 6: Use each other, you know, can see them overwhelming.

1495
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 1: But like the more we kind of understand like what

1496
01:21:57,040 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 1: we're up against, like the easier it is for us

1497
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 1: to develop strategies of resistance. And it's like, you know,

1498
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:05,439
Speaker 1: even though you know it can seem like we're up

1499
01:22:05,439 --> 01:22:07,280
Speaker 1: against a lot of different groups, but like, you know,

1500
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 1: we're also part of this larger fight for liberation, and

1501
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 1: you know, we can connect you know with feminists who

1502
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:17,560
Speaker 1: are fighting for reproductive autonomy. We can connect with like

1503
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:23,000
Speaker 1: disability liberation activists who are fighting for better healthcare for everyone.

1504
01:22:24,560 --> 01:22:26,280
Speaker 6: We do potentially have lots of allies.

1505
01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:29,639
Speaker 1: We do have lots of connections like with other movements,

1506
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 1: and so when you think of it that way, it's like, Okay,

1507
01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 1: we're not just like.

1508
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:36,800
Speaker 6: One small group up against this whole like Goliath.

1509
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:39,560
Speaker 1: Let's like, no, we're part of this larger movement that

1510
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 1: is fighting so that everyone is free and that everyone

1511
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:43,360
Speaker 1: gets the health care they deserve.

1512
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:45,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean I think that one of the

1513
01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 4: one of the sort of tangential things here too is

1514
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 4: you know, this is an extremely negative example of the

1515
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:56,720
Speaker 4: amount of influence that a very very small number of

1516
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:02,240
Speaker 4: people can wield who have extremely popular ideologies. On the

1517
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 4: other hand, there are a lot of us and the

1518
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 4: things that we believe are very popular. And you know,

1519
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:10,439
Speaker 4: the amount of power that we can wield if we

1520
01:23:10,479 --> 01:23:13,280
Speaker 4: are willing to organize, and we are when we understand

1521
01:23:13,439 --> 01:23:15,800
Speaker 4: what we're organizing against is immense, and it is enough

1522
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:20,519
Speaker 4: to drive these people into the fucking ground. Oh yeah, yeah,

1523
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:38,559
Speaker 4: welcome to dig it up in here. This is Mia

1524
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:40,880
Speaker 4: long back with part two of my interview with Kay

1525
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:44,320
Speaker 4: and Lee from Health Liberation Now about the long origins

1526
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:47,599
Speaker 4: of anti trans legislation and policy in Ohio. Let's get

1527
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:51,320
Speaker 4: right into it, Okay. So the next thing I wanted

1528
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:56,320
Speaker 4: to sort of ask about is, so this is a

1529
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:02,720
Speaker 4: very very long running I guess, sort of strategy and

1530
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 4: campaign of sort of right wing or right wing and

1531
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:14,320
Speaker 4: turf do transition like groups advocating for trans healthcare bands.

1532
01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:17,760
Speaker 4: And I wanted to I wanted to talk about some

1533
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 4: of the older campaigns that happened, and I wanted to

1534
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:23,400
Speaker 4: talk about specifically some of the campaigns to influence WPATH.

1535
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:27,920
Speaker 4: Oh boy, right, right, So we should we should start

1536
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,200
Speaker 4: by explaining to people what WPATH is, because I think

1537
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 4: unless you're trans you probably don't know. You've probably never

1538
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:35,639
Speaker 4: heard of WPATH.

1539
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:42,040
Speaker 1: It's like World Professional Association for trans Healthcare, I believe,

1540
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 1: is what it.

1541
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 6: Can double check that.

1542
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:44,360
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1543
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, World Professional Associations for Transvender Health formerly known as

1544
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 1: the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Alliance.

1545
01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 8: They published the standard care that is usually used to

1546
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 8: help inform gender firming care for trans people, and they

1547
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:01,880
Speaker 8: have done various versions of.

1548
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:05,519
Speaker 6: This over the course of decades. We are currently on

1549
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:06,960
Speaker 6: version eight.

1550
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:13,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and historically they've they're a way of administering trans

1551
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 1: healthcare has involved a lot of like gatekeeping and then

1552
01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:19,840
Speaker 1: psychological assessments or requiring people to do a real life test,

1553
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:22,840
Speaker 1: which is like making someone live as the gender they're

1554
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 1: transitioning to for like a year before they can actually

1555
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:29,439
Speaker 1: access medical transition. So I guess like social transition, but

1556
01:25:29,479 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 1: it's like a test to prove whether you're a quote

1557
01:25:31,479 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 1: unquote real trans person or not. And like things of Yeah,

1558
01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:38,200
Speaker 1: things have gotten like somewhat better over time, but there's

1559
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:43,360
Speaker 1: still a lot of medical professionals in and especially like

1560
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:47,040
Speaker 1: therapists in WPATH who like still want to require some

1561
01:25:47,240 --> 01:25:49,760
Speaker 1: form of gatekeeping, who basically still don't trust trans people

1562
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:52,400
Speaker 1: to know, you know, who we are and what we

1563
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:54,599
Speaker 1: need and are like okay, but we need to make

1564
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:56,040
Speaker 1: sure they get therapy. We need to make sure we

1565
01:25:56,120 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 1: do like oh the SYPE tests, what if they regret it?

1566
01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:00,439
Speaker 3: And so yeah.

1567
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:04,919
Speaker 1: So I used to be a de transition radical feminist

1568
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:08,000
Speaker 1: back in the day, and I used to know I

1569
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:12,439
Speaker 1: mean I knew Max and Kitty. I was involved in

1570
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:17,479
Speaker 1: that particular group for about like six and a half

1571
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:21,559
Speaker 1: seven years, and I used to have a blog called

1572
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:25,280
Speaker 1: Crash Chaos Cats where I wrote about de transitioning and

1573
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:28,160
Speaker 1: kind of got more more turphy over time. But like

1574
01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:30,720
Speaker 1: pretty early into my blog, about like three months or

1575
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:34,720
Speaker 1: so in this gender therapist who worked for the San

1576
01:26:34,720 --> 01:26:37,120
Speaker 1: Francisco Department of Health like left a comment on my

1577
01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:39,680
Speaker 1: blog and was like, I'm interested in talking to de

1578
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:42,639
Speaker 1: transitioned people because I think there are two Like well,

1579
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:45,519
Speaker 1: she left to comment that she was interested in talking

1580
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 1: to de transition people and you know, talking to me,

1581
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:50,479
Speaker 1: and then like we started emailing back and forth, and

1582
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 1: she opened up pretty quickly and said like there are

1583
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:55,519
Speaker 1: too many f to ms in San Francisco. It was

1584
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:57,280
Speaker 1: like too many f to ms in the San Francisco

1585
01:26:57,360 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 1: Bay Area, there are too many like you know, Quoe

1586
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 1: unquote female PEP transitioning. I know, it's like, oh no,

1587
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:09,280
Speaker 1: it's like, oh wow, there's It's like it couldn't possibly

1588
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:11,280
Speaker 1: be that people are just coming to one of the

1589
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:14,519
Speaker 1: most trans friendly areas in the country to transition because

1590
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:16,479
Speaker 1: they think they'll have an easier time there.

1591
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:18,479
Speaker 6: No, there's got to be too many people.

1592
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:21,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I think somewhere early in the conversation she

1593
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:24,560
Speaker 1: brought up YouTube influencing people towards transitioning.

1594
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:26,599
Speaker 6: She thought there was like, you know, pressure to transition

1595
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:27,559
Speaker 6: in the trans community.

1596
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:30,720
Speaker 1: So anyways, shit all this stuff, something about like you know, oh,

1597
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:33,679
Speaker 1: people are treating this social problem as a medical problem.

1598
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:38,519
Speaker 1: And I you know, immediately kind of turned around and

1599
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:43,000
Speaker 1: started talking with this other detrans radical feminist that I knew,

1600
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:46,560
Speaker 1: divoras Ahab, and we started scheming like, Okay, this like

1601
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 1: gender therapist who works for the San Francisco Department of

1602
01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 1: Health like thinks there's too many people transitioning. How do

1603
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:55,439
Speaker 1: we exploit this, Like how can we like use this

1604
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:57,639
Speaker 1: as an opportunity to like cut down on the number

1605
01:27:57,680 --> 01:27:58,920
Speaker 1: of like people transitioning.

1606
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:02,320
Speaker 6: It wasn't just the connection to the Department of Health. Yeah,

1607
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:03,360
Speaker 6: also the w PATH.

1608
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:04,880
Speaker 1: Well that that we found out about that I was

1609
01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:06,720
Speaker 1: just going to go into that, like eventually, first we

1610
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 1: found out she was working for the Department of Public Health,

1611
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:10,600
Speaker 1: and then we found out that she was in w

1612
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:13,040
Speaker 1: PATH and she actually was like you know, talking to

1613
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:15,840
Speaker 1: the president of w PATH and that she like so

1614
01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:19,120
Speaker 1: she made it clear that like she wanted to use

1615
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:23,240
Speaker 1: the stories of de transitioned people to try to get

1616
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:25,599
Speaker 1: more clinicians to be to take a more cautious approach,

1617
01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:27,719
Speaker 1: and she also wanted to try to develop psych assessments

1618
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:31,160
Speaker 1: that could supposedly like weed out you know, who the

1619
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 1: real trans people were, who was going to benefit from

1620
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:36,240
Speaker 1: transitioning and who would supposed to go on to regret

1621
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:37,439
Speaker 1: transitioning and d transition.

1622
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:40,880
Speaker 6: The thing is, we didn't actually.

1623
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:43,040
Speaker 1: Believe that you could tell the difference between someone who

1624
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:46,559
Speaker 1: would end up like state transitions because we were TERFs, right,

1625
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:50,439
Speaker 1: we thought everyone could you know, be saved by radical

1626
01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:52,639
Speaker 1: feminism like we And we had a bunch of people

1627
01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:55,200
Speaker 1: in our group who thought that they were you know,

1628
01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:58,240
Speaker 1: quote unquote true transsexuals, who thought they fit the criteria

1629
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:00,880
Speaker 1: of someone who would have a seccess full transition, you know,

1630
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:04,120
Speaker 1: until they you know, decided they actually were suffering from

1631
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:07,840
Speaker 1: internalized misogyny or some other kind of rad fem explanation

1632
01:29:08,160 --> 01:29:11,679
Speaker 1: for gender dysphoria. And like the thing is, like Devora

1633
01:29:12,120 --> 01:29:14,000
Speaker 1: also lived in the San Francisco Bay area, so you

1634
01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 1: actually end up like meeting up with this gender therapist.

1635
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 1: His name was Julie Graham, and was like pretty open

1636
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:22,920
Speaker 1: with her with her anti trans views. I mean, she

1637
01:29:23,040 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 1: wasn't like completely open with her like intentions like, oh,

1638
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:26,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to use this person to try to like

1639
01:29:27,160 --> 01:29:30,280
Speaker 1: work towards ending all transition, but she was. She did

1640
01:29:30,439 --> 01:29:33,240
Speaker 1: tell you know, Graham, but she didn't think anyone really

1641
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:35,680
Speaker 1: benefited from it. And she told her that, you know,

1642
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 1: she said she knew people who have been true transsexuals

1643
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:41,880
Speaker 1: who had de transitioned, and said like lots of really

1644
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:46,040
Speaker 1: awful things about like trans women being fetishists and just

1645
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 1: like you know, all this very anti trans stuff. But

1646
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:52,439
Speaker 1: then you know, I say, oh, but I think we

1647
01:29:52,479 --> 01:29:54,200
Speaker 1: don't have to agree on everything. I think we can

1648
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:56,960
Speaker 1: like work together, and like, you know, this gender therapist

1649
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:02,280
Speaker 1: fell for it, like somehow like divorcing all this very

1650
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:04,879
Speaker 1: anti trans stuff like making a close she was opposed

1651
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:09,080
Speaker 1: to transition, saying like really nasty, trans misogynistic shit, like

1652
01:30:09,160 --> 01:30:12,760
Speaker 1: none of that was like objectionable enough for great not

1653
01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: to like continue to like work with her, to continue

1654
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:17,280
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, do you want to talk to

1655
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:19,719
Speaker 1: these clinicians about what it is to do transition?

1656
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:24,200
Speaker 6: And you know eventually what happened like that.

1657
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 1: Eventually, this relationship with this gender therapist eventually led to

1658
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:33,720
Speaker 1: a presentation at the first us PATH conference by Carrie Callahan,

1659
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:36,800
Speaker 1: who's like she's kind of an odd figure because she

1660
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 1: never actually identified as like a radical feminist, but she

1661
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:43,759
Speaker 1: spent like years hanging out was like detransitioned radical feminists,

1662
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 1: and she's she's de transitioned, but she's kind of more

1663
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:50,440
Speaker 1: of like a weird liberal who believes in more gatekeeping,

1664
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:54,640
Speaker 1: but she's kind of handy, like we like like she

1665
01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:57,880
Speaker 1: did this presentation at us PATH and she showed some

1666
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 1: videos of trans turfs, including myself, like I made one

1667
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:05,559
Speaker 1: of I made a short video, and Max Robinson also

1668
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:09,600
Speaker 1: made one of those videos, and Carrie Stella was the

1669
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:12,000
Speaker 1: third person, and Carry Stella she did like she was

1670
01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:14,639
Speaker 1: another like d trans tumbler turf who did this survey.

1671
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:18,120
Speaker 1: It still gets like it was a it was a

1672
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:23,360
Speaker 1: survey monkey survey. It's gets cited by like anti trans

1673
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:27,920
Speaker 1: researchers about de transition yeap. Which anyways, so we so

1674
01:31:28,120 --> 01:31:30,919
Speaker 1: there were three of us who made these short videos,

1675
01:31:31,439 --> 01:31:34,719
Speaker 1: both me and Max Robinson by that point had gone

1676
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:38,960
Speaker 1: like we had hooked up with these weird turfs who

1677
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 1: were Dianic witches and taken part in these kind of

1678
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:48,960
Speaker 1: weird neopagan x trans reclaiming femaleness rituals. We had been

1679
01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 1: through this kind of like religious neo pagan like you know,

1680
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:58,120
Speaker 1: conversion practice rituals, which of course that wasn't something that

1681
01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:00,679
Speaker 1: the USP like those are the people, you know, dos

1682
01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:04,360
Speaker 1: Path knew that, but we hit that. We just you know,

1683
01:32:04,479 --> 01:32:06,760
Speaker 1: I talked about how I thought I had transition due

1684
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:10,200
Speaker 1: to like internalized misogyny and trauma on all that. So

1685
01:32:10,280 --> 01:32:12,880
Speaker 1: I was sort of like spreading a more like kind

1686
01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 1: of watered down terf ideology to the folks over at

1687
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:18,599
Speaker 1: us Path.

1688
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:22,320
Speaker 8: This is this is kind of an intentional strategy if

1689
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,200
Speaker 8: you think about it, because I want to I want

1690
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:30,320
Speaker 8: to point out something from the emails about how that

1691
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:36,240
Speaker 8: presentation was made and then given where Carrie Callahan noted

1692
01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:40,519
Speaker 8: that her slides were quote unquote decidedly on radical.

1693
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:44,000
Speaker 6: She was trying to talk to therapists as a therapist.

1694
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:47,920
Speaker 8: What that basically meant was she was taking away a

1695
01:32:48,040 --> 01:32:53,000
Speaker 8: lot of the more objectionable elements, the things that would

1696
01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:58,040
Speaker 8: identify folks like Kai and her previously scrambled state as

1697
01:32:58,200 --> 01:33:00,880
Speaker 8: a turf and being completely oppos transition and stuff like that,

1698
01:33:01,200 --> 01:33:04,160
Speaker 8: and then putting on you know, kind of suiting them

1699
01:33:04,240 --> 01:33:06,599
Speaker 8: up right, like you know, getting getting them in their

1700
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 8: in their nice clothes, and then presenting them to a

1701
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:12,919
Speaker 8: professional audience who is then able to take that information

1702
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:16,280
Speaker 8: and sort of absorb it into their general thinking and

1703
01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:18,720
Speaker 8: then how that's going to play out in terms of

1704
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:23,559
Speaker 8: their changes or implementations of care in the long term.

1705
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:26,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's something that like, I think there's something

1706
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 4: that's pretty common with like a d D trends, uh,

1707
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:35,800
Speaker 4: like anti transactivists across the spectrum, Like a lot of

1708
01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:38,920
Speaker 4: people like Cloe Cold, there's a lot of the sort

1709
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:43,240
Speaker 4: of like just hardline right wingers who didn't talk about

1710
01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:46,160
Speaker 4: stuff like like like some of these people de transition

1711
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:48,840
Speaker 4: because like the thing that they're saying now is the

1712
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:51,000
Speaker 4: de transition because they got a vision from God, right,

1713
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:54,280
Speaker 4: and they don't start with that because I think, right,

1714
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:56,000
Speaker 4: I mean, I I think I think there should be

1715
01:33:56,040 --> 01:33:58,000
Speaker 4: more skepticism of people who are like I got a

1716
01:33:58,120 --> 01:34:01,920
Speaker 4: vision from the Christian God or like the Abrahamic God

1717
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:04,280
Speaker 4: that told me a t transition. I think thered be

1718
01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:06,080
Speaker 4: borced get the system of that. But that's not something

1719
01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:08,880
Speaker 4: that like, I don't know if if you if you

1720
01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:12,200
Speaker 4: walk into like W Path and you tell them I

1721
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:14,760
Speaker 4: was given to vision from God, They're going to be like,

1722
01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:18,120
Speaker 4: what whereas this kind of stuff?

1723
01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:18,320
Speaker 8: Right?

1724
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:21,040
Speaker 4: Like, you know, but the Wpath people like and this

1725
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:22,840
Speaker 4: is something that's kind of complicated about this because I

1726
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:25,400
Speaker 4: think there's I think there's a lot of people who

1727
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:28,400
Speaker 4: see W Path as one of the sort of like

1728
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,760
Speaker 4: as one of the organizations that's there to protect trans

1729
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:33,559
Speaker 4: people and that are sort of allies in this sort

1730
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:37,280
Speaker 4: of in this battle against anti trands stuff. And it's

1731
01:34:37,360 --> 01:34:39,880
Speaker 4: true to a certain extent, but they're also like, this

1732
01:34:40,040 --> 01:34:44,680
Speaker 4: is an organization composed of a bunch of CIS doctors, right,

1733
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:47,440
Speaker 4: who can be influenced and manipulated.

1734
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:52,800
Speaker 8: And there's there's trans members as well, there's a few,

1735
01:34:54,200 --> 01:34:55,400
Speaker 8: but it also is less power.

1736
01:34:55,520 --> 01:34:57,880
Speaker 1: Well, it also seems like the trans people who do

1737
01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:01,840
Speaker 1: end up like you know, positioned at wpath like also

1738
01:35:02,000 --> 01:35:04,960
Speaker 1: tend to be like end up believing in gatekeeping and

1739
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:08,160
Speaker 1: restrictions that kind of like internalize the general mindset and

1740
01:35:08,280 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: so so it's kind of like their tokens, right. It's

1741
01:35:10,160 --> 01:35:13,720
Speaker 1: kind of handy for like CIS medical professionals who want

1742
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 1: to like control trans people to have some trans people

1743
01:35:18,280 --> 01:35:21,840
Speaker 1: as like figureheads, you know, expressing those views because they're like, oh, well,

1744
01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:24,879
Speaker 1: you know, look this person's saying it and they're trans,

1745
01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:30,720
Speaker 1: so like yeah, I mean, I mean, like yeah, at

1746
01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:34,280
Speaker 1: the same like that the first US Path, I mean,

1747
01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:37,080
Speaker 1: just to kind of show how far things still need

1748
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:40,160
Speaker 1: to come, you know, the same US Path where Carrie

1749
01:35:40,200 --> 01:35:44,200
Speaker 1: did her de transition presentation. Ken Zucker was there and

1750
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:46,720
Speaker 1: he got he got protested, I mean like there was

1751
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:49,519
Speaker 1: a protest against him, and I did. I believe they

1752
01:35:49,560 --> 01:35:53,240
Speaker 1: ended up like canceling at least like one of his presentations.

1753
01:35:53,280 --> 01:35:56,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, so ken Zucker kind of the notorious like

1754
01:35:56,160 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 1: conversion therapist to focus primarily on on trans use like

1755
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:05,600
Speaker 1: clinic in Canada, you know people I mean and like

1756
01:36:05,720 --> 01:36:08,360
Speaker 1: going after both like trans youth and gender non conforming youth.

1757
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:10,479
Speaker 1: They tried to like you know, prevent kids from growing

1758
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:12,640
Speaker 1: up trans, but they also tried to make you know,

1759
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:16,200
Speaker 1: non conforming youth like more gender conforming as well, with

1760
01:36:16,320 --> 01:36:19,040
Speaker 1: the justification, Oh well, it's easier to change individual than

1761
01:36:19,080 --> 01:36:24,840
Speaker 1: to like make society less bigoted. Yeah, yeah, but yeah,

1762
01:36:24,840 --> 01:36:26,960
Speaker 1: but he was the type of people, like he was

1763
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:28,680
Speaker 1: one of the medical professionals that was like, you know,

1764
01:36:28,920 --> 01:36:32,120
Speaker 1: helping to create like the standards of care for for

1765
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:34,560
Speaker 1: trans youth for decades, and it took a lot of

1766
01:36:34,640 --> 01:36:35,040
Speaker 1: work to.

1767
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:37,160
Speaker 6: To change that.

1768
01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:39,920
Speaker 1: And like, yeah, he was still given a platform by

1769
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:42,160
Speaker 1: w Path in like twenty seventeen.

1770
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 6: That's not that long ago.

1771
01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:48,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's I don't know, it's this is one

1772
01:36:48,680 --> 01:36:58,360
Speaker 4: of these things where like the history of cist doctors

1773
01:36:58,600 --> 01:37:03,760
Speaker 4: treating trans people is really really bleak in ways that

1774
01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 4: don't get talked about. And the reason, like one of

1775
01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:10,320
Speaker 4: the reasons they don't get talked about from people who

1776
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:14,519
Speaker 4: know about it is that like it's fucking bad, Like

1777
01:37:14,760 --> 01:37:17,599
Speaker 4: it's a lot it's it's a lot of people getting raped.

1778
01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:20,560
Speaker 4: It's like a lot of like I mean, and like

1779
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:22,680
Speaker 4: when we talked about sort of like gatekeeping for health care,

1780
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:25,120
Speaker 4: Like that was the like one of the original things

1781
01:37:25,960 --> 01:37:27,439
Speaker 4: was like, you know, one of the things that would

1782
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:31,080
Speaker 4: happen very very commonly was you know, it's like okay,

1783
01:37:31,200 --> 01:37:33,720
Speaker 4: like if you if you want to get healthcare, like

1784
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:35,160
Speaker 4: you have to let me rape you like that. That's

1785
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:37,880
Speaker 4: the thing that happened all the fucking time. And this

1786
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:40,400
Speaker 4: is the and that's not something that's you know, extremely

1787
01:37:40,479 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 4: long ago, right, And you can you can look at

1788
01:37:42,160 --> 01:37:44,759
Speaker 4: like modern w path and be like, well, it's obviously

1789
01:37:44,920 --> 01:37:47,000
Speaker 4: like yes, it has come a long way from that shit,

1790
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:50,000
Speaker 4: but simultaneously, yeah, like I don't know, that's that's something

1791
01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:52,120
Speaker 4: that you know, like there are living people who fucking

1792
01:37:52,200 --> 01:37:57,280
Speaker 4: experience that, right, and you know, and and when when

1793
01:37:57,280 --> 01:38:01,040
Speaker 4: you when you look at why these kinds of like

1794
01:38:01,160 --> 01:38:04,080
Speaker 4: d trans campaigns, why why these just like like these

1795
01:38:04,120 --> 01:38:07,800
Speaker 4: the sort of d trans anti transactivists have been so

1796
01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:12,160
Speaker 4: successful in targeting this it's like, well, you know, it's

1797
01:38:12,240 --> 01:38:14,320
Speaker 4: it's it's it's I think I think it's a kind

1798
01:38:14,360 --> 01:38:17,519
Speaker 4: of similar thing to like, oh wow, I wonder why

1799
01:38:17,720 --> 01:38:20,680
Speaker 4: like the third KKK was successful in this South And

1800
01:38:20,720 --> 01:38:24,680
Speaker 4: it's like hmm hmm. Maybe there are things happening. I

1801
01:38:24,680 --> 01:38:27,360
Speaker 4: mean that that is slightly unfair as being a bit

1802
01:38:27,400 --> 01:38:30,320
Speaker 4: unfair to them. But you know, there's there's still a

1803
01:38:30,479 --> 01:38:34,720
Speaker 4: lot of these sentiments that there's a lot of sort

1804
01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:36,680
Speaker 4: of like transphobic sentiments that are just kind of like

1805
01:38:37,479 --> 01:38:39,800
Speaker 4: buried beneath the surface. And I think a lot of

1806
01:38:39,880 --> 01:38:43,280
Speaker 4: what we've been seeing over the past you know, like

1807
01:38:44,720 --> 01:38:48,280
Speaker 4: like eight ish years, what is time hold on? Is

1808
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:51,880
Speaker 4: that God, Okay, I've broken my own rule about not

1809
01:38:52,000 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 4: trying to do bath life on air. People don't figure

1810
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:58,120
Speaker 4: out that I can't do subtract. But you know, that's

1811
01:38:58,160 --> 01:38:59,479
Speaker 4: that's a lot of what's the topic of the last

1812
01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:03,280
Speaker 4: like eight years is that people figured out that there's

1813
01:39:03,560 --> 01:39:05,960
Speaker 4: still a lot of sort of lingering anti transceniment, and

1814
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:08,679
Speaker 4: they figured out where you can target it in ways

1815
01:39:08,720 --> 01:39:11,280
Speaker 4: that are extremely effective. We need to go to ads

1816
01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:25,639
Speaker 4: were back in a second with less capitalism, and we're

1817
01:39:25,680 --> 01:39:27,879
Speaker 4: back Oh yeah.

1818
01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:31,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean like yeah, I mean I feel

1819
01:39:31,120 --> 01:39:34,880
Speaker 1: like like in terms of like medical professionals who want

1820
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:37,320
Speaker 1: a gatekeeper, what like they've they've been using you know,

1821
01:39:37,400 --> 01:39:40,160
Speaker 1: de transition and transition regret as like an excuse for

1822
01:39:40,280 --> 01:39:44,719
Speaker 1: controlling people for basically since the beginning of trans healthcare.

1823
01:39:45,040 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 1: I mean not like like you know that gender therapist,

1824
01:39:48,400 --> 01:39:50,400
Speaker 1: she like Graham, she went looking for us. She like

1825
01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:54,200
Speaker 1: went looking for for de trans people to use. She's like, Okay,

1826
01:39:54,280 --> 01:39:56,240
Speaker 1: this is how I'm going to like cut down on

1827
01:39:56,280 --> 01:39:58,360
Speaker 1: the number of people transitioning. I'm going to find some

1828
01:39:58,560 --> 01:40:02,080
Speaker 1: like de transitioned women and then use their experiences. And

1829
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:04,680
Speaker 1: you know that's what she tried to do. And like

1830
01:40:04,840 --> 01:40:07,280
Speaker 1: and I see this happening with other like clinicians too,

1831
01:40:07,400 --> 01:40:10,400
Speaker 1: like kind of going back to Ohio Scott Liebowitz, who

1832
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:16,280
Speaker 1: runs he's a therapist who runs the Thrive Clinic in Ohio.

1833
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:20,760
Speaker 1: And he's another one who has used like detransition to

1834
01:40:21,080 --> 01:40:25,800
Speaker 1: justify like more psych assessments. And I mean he was

1835
01:40:25,840 --> 01:40:31,439
Speaker 1: actually one of the therapists featured in one of the

1836
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:35,040
Speaker 1: New York Times articles that everyone a lot of trans

1837
01:40:35,080 --> 01:40:38,680
Speaker 1: people got mad at, the one by Emily Baislon. Was

1838
01:40:38,720 --> 01:40:41,559
Speaker 1: it like I forget what it's called selfpies the general

1839
01:40:41,600 --> 01:40:43,920
Speaker 1: for gender therapy, where he's like kind of cast is

1840
01:40:43,960 --> 01:40:47,519
Speaker 1: this like this poor moderate position who's caught between the

1841
01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:50,760
Speaker 1: religious right that wants to ban all trans healthcare and

1842
01:40:50,880 --> 01:40:54,600
Speaker 1: these wacky transactivists who just want to let everyone transition.

1843
01:40:55,120 --> 01:40:58,160
Speaker 1: It's like he's just trying to find this nuanced approach

1844
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:02,560
Speaker 1: and make sure that like teenagers don't transition and regret it.

1845
01:41:02,960 --> 01:41:05,920
Speaker 1: And you know, yeah, you know he was like, I mean,

1846
01:41:06,760 --> 01:41:10,320
Speaker 1: like he was trying to stop the healthcare bands in

1847
01:41:10,600 --> 01:41:12,920
Speaker 1: Ohio by pointing out, like, oh look, you know we're

1848
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:17,960
Speaker 1: we do comprehensive care. You know, most most youth don't

1849
01:41:18,000 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 1: go on to medically transition. Like like Carrie Callahan was

1850
01:41:24,040 --> 01:41:27,600
Speaker 1: also one of the you know, she and her testimony

1851
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:29,320
Speaker 1: and in some op ed pieces that she wrote, she

1852
01:41:29,439 --> 01:41:34,080
Speaker 1: was like praising his approach, calling it conscious cautious. You know,

1853
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:37,479
Speaker 1: people who want to like restrict care implement more gatekeeping

1854
01:41:37,560 --> 01:41:40,640
Speaker 1: will use like de transition stories to justify that. And

1855
01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:43,800
Speaker 1: then of course, like you know, the religious right, who

1856
01:41:43,840 --> 01:41:47,840
Speaker 1: wants to completely wipe out all transition healthcare will also

1857
01:41:47,960 --> 01:41:50,760
Speaker 1: use like D transition stories as well. They'll have their

1858
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:53,200
Speaker 1: set of D transition people that they they bring out,

1859
01:41:53,360 --> 01:41:55,799
Speaker 1: like Chloe Coole to testify for the bands.

1860
01:41:56,800 --> 01:41:57,000
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1861
01:41:57,080 --> 01:42:02,080
Speaker 8: Leibowitz was also one of the colely for the adolescent

1862
01:42:02,240 --> 01:42:05,479
Speaker 8: chapter in the Standards of Care eight from w Path.

1863
01:42:06,120 --> 01:42:08,639
Speaker 8: This was also partially reported on in the Basilon piece

1864
01:42:08,680 --> 01:42:11,679
Speaker 8: since they were given exclusive access to the draft before

1865
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 8: the actual final product was officially published. And so this

1866
01:42:16,520 --> 01:42:21,599
Speaker 8: particular chapter, especially compared to most of the other ones,

1867
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:23,960
Speaker 8: was it was basically a dumpster fire. Like it was

1868
01:42:24,040 --> 01:42:27,920
Speaker 8: a massive rollback in terms of accurate information. And part

1869
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:31,000
Speaker 8: of this was actually captured by a white paper that

1870
01:42:31,160 --> 01:42:33,960
Speaker 8: was written by Kelly Winter's a trans woman.

1871
01:42:34,200 --> 01:42:35,720
Speaker 6: You know, she's got a PhD and everything like that.

1872
01:42:35,800 --> 01:42:37,280
Speaker 8: She's been paying attention to this stuff for a really

1873
01:42:37,360 --> 01:42:39,720
Speaker 8: long time, has been working in aspects of w path

1874
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:43,640
Speaker 8: and trying to like, you know, kind of help reshape

1875
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:46,280
Speaker 8: some of the transphobia that's been happening.

1876
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:48,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean she's been finding back against like how

1877
01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:52,840
Speaker 1: trans people are pathologized and you know, against paternalistic yeah

1878
01:42:52,920 --> 01:42:54,720
Speaker 1: healthcare for a very long time now.

1879
01:42:54,920 --> 01:42:55,120
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1880
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:59,719
Speaker 8: So she ended up writing a white paper about Version,

1881
01:43:00,680 --> 01:43:05,600
Speaker 8: with a significant section focusing on the adolescent chapter and

1882
01:43:05,800 --> 01:43:10,840
Speaker 8: some of the weird like pseudoscience laundering that ended up

1883
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:14,080
Speaker 8: happening because that chapter not only did it include like

1884
01:43:14,680 --> 01:43:17,400
Speaker 8: you know, lip service to things like quote unquote rapid

1885
01:43:17,400 --> 01:43:20,280
Speaker 8: onset gender dysphoria, which is a this is a bunk

1886
01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:23,720
Speaker 8: pseudodiagnosis that was invented by Lisa Littman after surveying a

1887
01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:27,000
Speaker 8: bunch of anti transparents. But then within that chapter you

1888
01:43:27,200 --> 01:43:31,960
Speaker 8: also see the laundering of specific studies that are focused

1889
01:43:32,040 --> 01:43:40,040
Speaker 8: on predominantly de transitioned women, predominantly gender critical or radical feminists.

1890
01:43:40,640 --> 01:43:44,320
Speaker 8: These two papers were Litman twenty twenty one, which surveyed

1891
01:43:44,439 --> 01:43:48,120
Speaker 8: a lot of the kind of the old D trans

1892
01:43:48,280 --> 01:43:51,160
Speaker 8: turf groups that we had been connected with right around

1893
01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:54,960
Speaker 8: twenty seventeen or so, so this was before the ROGD

1894
01:43:55,120 --> 01:43:58,240
Speaker 8: paper was published in twenty eighteen. But then there was

1895
01:43:58,320 --> 01:44:02,400
Speaker 8: also let's say, there's the Vanderbush study, which I believe

1896
01:44:02,479 --> 01:44:06,439
Speaker 8: that was published in like what twenty I don't remember

1897
01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:08,880
Speaker 8: what year that was published in the Vanderbush study, Now,

1898
01:44:09,120 --> 01:44:12,280
Speaker 8: this study was done by Eli vander Bush, who is

1899
01:44:13,040 --> 01:44:19,320
Speaker 8: basically post trans half of a gender critical detransition project,

1900
01:44:19,720 --> 01:44:23,320
Speaker 8: and it had a very similar kind of like recruitment

1901
01:44:23,400 --> 01:44:27,280
Speaker 8: strategy sometimes an overlapping recruitment pool. But the difference is

1902
01:44:27,320 --> 01:44:30,400
Speaker 8: that this happened after the rog D paper dropped.

1903
01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:33,120
Speaker 4: RGD is that's wrap it on SUT gender dysphoria, which

1904
01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:35,120
Speaker 4: is distinct correct, Yeah, to be like all the kids

1905
01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:37,800
Speaker 4: are suddenly transitioning, is like no, this is yes, yeah,

1906
01:44:37,840 --> 01:44:39,120
Speaker 4: but that's what that is.

1907
01:44:40,560 --> 01:44:40,720
Speaker 11: Yep.

1908
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:44,400
Speaker 8: When that paper dropped, a shift in some of the

1909
01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:48,120
Speaker 8: narratives from people who are coming out as de transitioned

1910
01:44:48,280 --> 01:44:51,400
Speaker 8: was also starting to be observed. More people were starting

1911
01:44:51,479 --> 01:44:54,640
Speaker 8: to call themselves as having experienced ROGD.

1912
01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:57,519
Speaker 6: This is where the peak Resilience project came from.

1913
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:00,759
Speaker 8: And so as a result, like this BANDI Bush study

1914
01:45:00,880 --> 01:45:03,839
Speaker 8: was also pulling in aspects of that kind of narrative

1915
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:07,200
Speaker 8: as well. Right, and you know this, none of this

1916
01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:10,760
Speaker 8: actually makes sense. These are wildly biased sample pools. It's

1917
01:45:10,800 --> 01:45:15,280
Speaker 8: not going to be generalizable to basically any population. It's

1918
01:45:15,680 --> 01:45:20,920
Speaker 8: only focused on like a very particular subset of people

1919
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:23,640
Speaker 8: who end up detransitioning and then develop some kind of

1920
01:45:23,840 --> 01:45:27,439
Speaker 8: like political belief it's connected to it, right, And then

1921
01:45:27,960 --> 01:45:33,000
Speaker 8: it's being used as legitimate data as part of standards

1922
01:45:33,040 --> 01:45:37,080
Speaker 8: of care that is supposed to be like yeah, yes,

1923
01:45:37,320 --> 01:45:39,320
Speaker 8: it's just it's particular absolus.

1924
01:45:39,320 --> 01:45:42,000
Speaker 1: Well, it is ridiculous, But I don't feel like like

1925
01:45:42,080 --> 01:45:44,760
Speaker 1: I feel like the medical professionals who want more gatekeeping,

1926
01:45:44,840 --> 01:45:47,800
Speaker 1: like they just need some de transitioned people to justify it.

1927
01:45:48,040 --> 01:45:50,800
Speaker 1: They don't really care if like the people ended up

1928
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:55,560
Speaker 1: de transitioning because they like found God or radical feminism

1929
01:45:55,880 --> 01:45:59,840
Speaker 1: or like or you know, our old group, a lot

1930
01:45:59,840 --> 01:46:01,519
Speaker 1: of de transmit. I think I already mentioned this before,

1931
01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:02,960
Speaker 1: Like a lot of us like talked about how like

1932
01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:05,559
Speaker 1: we had the same kind of dysphoria than any other

1933
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:08,479
Speaker 1: transperson had and we're.

1934
01:46:08,320 --> 01:46:10,080
Speaker 6: Still fighting it off. That was a thing too.

1935
01:46:10,200 --> 01:46:13,000
Speaker 1: Most of the people I knew still had gender dysphoria

1936
01:46:13,640 --> 01:46:16,120
Speaker 1: and we're just finding like quote unquote alternative ways to

1937
01:46:16,240 --> 01:46:18,559
Speaker 1: cope with it. And it's just like, I don't I mean,

1938
01:46:18,760 --> 01:46:20,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people were trying to like talk themselves

1939
01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:26,479
Speaker 1: out of like transitioning again. So I don't think the

1940
01:46:26,560 --> 01:46:29,040
Speaker 1: issue here is like, oh, transition didn't work for these people.

1941
01:46:29,120 --> 01:46:31,280
Speaker 1: It's more like they internalized the idea that no one

1942
01:46:31,280 --> 01:46:37,160
Speaker 1: should transition. But again, like people don't. It's like people don't, Yeah,

1943
01:46:37,200 --> 01:46:40,120
Speaker 1: they only care about using D transition in order to

1944
01:46:40,720 --> 01:46:43,240
Speaker 1: reduce the number of trans people or prevent transition. They

1945
01:46:43,280 --> 01:46:46,960
Speaker 1: don't care about transition or d transition that you know

1946
01:46:47,080 --> 01:46:51,640
Speaker 1: results from transphobia either internalizing it, yeah, internalizing it an

1947
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:54,640
Speaker 1: anti trans ideology, or you know, not being able to

1948
01:46:55,479 --> 01:47:01,080
Speaker 1: access transition because of living in a transphoba, coming from

1949
01:47:01,120 --> 01:47:03,439
Speaker 1: a transphobic family, you know, having to go into the

1950
01:47:03,479 --> 01:47:05,519
Speaker 1: closet to find a job, that kind of stuff. Like

1951
01:47:06,360 --> 01:47:08,599
Speaker 1: it's never about like yeah, it's never about preventing due

1952
01:47:08,600 --> 01:47:12,759
Speaker 1: transition that results from from transphobia. It's just about finding

1953
01:47:12,840 --> 01:47:16,040
Speaker 1: excuse to control us and our access to healthcare. There's

1954
01:47:16,080 --> 01:47:19,840
Speaker 1: this perverse incentive structure here too, because you know, these

1955
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:24,640
Speaker 1: doctors are trying to find you know, they're trying to

1956
01:47:24,720 --> 01:47:26,240
Speaker 1: find something that gives.

1957
01:47:26,080 --> 01:47:29,160
Speaker 4: Them more ability to do gatekeeping. So it's it's it's

1958
01:47:29,200 --> 01:47:31,120
Speaker 4: in their interest to in order to in order to

1959
01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:34,960
Speaker 4: preserve and increase their own power, to find this kind

1960
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:37,679
Speaker 4: of stuff, which means that they're not actually doing their job.

1961
01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:42,160
Speaker 4: They're going out and trying to find ways to like

1962
01:47:42,200 --> 01:47:46,440
Speaker 4: they're trying to find, you know, whatever whatever like absolutely

1963
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:50,160
Speaker 4: dog shit studies or like just stuff that like probably

1964
01:47:50,200 --> 01:47:53,519
Speaker 4: should be considered medical malpractice. Like they don't really care

1965
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:55,800
Speaker 4: because again it's it's it's it's just this like loop

1966
01:47:55,840 --> 01:47:57,599
Speaker 4: because that's the thing that they need. So they'll they'll

1967
01:47:57,680 --> 01:48:01,880
Speaker 4: find whatever, like bank pseudo scientists just like cranking the

1968
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:03,040
Speaker 4: stuff out and they'll use.

1969
01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:05,840
Speaker 1: It, yeah, I mean, and also I mean I also

1970
01:48:05,880 --> 01:48:07,360
Speaker 1: feel like this is one of the reasons why there

1971
01:48:07,400 --> 01:48:11,160
Speaker 1: aren't more resources for people who end up de transitioning too,

1972
01:48:11,320 --> 01:48:12,720
Speaker 1: because they want to be able to use as a

1973
01:48:12,760 --> 01:48:15,800
Speaker 1: scarce scare story, right because like really, I mean, like okay,

1974
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:18,000
Speaker 1: like you know, I do transitioned, and like it was

1975
01:48:18,240 --> 01:48:21,799
Speaker 1: hard because there weren't as much like resources and support

1976
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:23,839
Speaker 1: out there. And I mean a lot of the supports

1977
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:26,880
Speaker 1: I did find were crappy because they were coming from TERFs.

1978
01:48:27,520 --> 01:48:29,800
Speaker 1: But it's like it's really just kind of like transitioning

1979
01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:32,680
Speaker 1: again in a lot of ways. So it's like, well,

1980
01:48:32,720 --> 01:48:35,840
Speaker 1: if you can create resources to make transitioning easier, you

1981
01:48:35,920 --> 01:48:38,760
Speaker 1: could definitely create a lot of similar resources to make

1982
01:48:38,840 --> 01:48:40,439
Speaker 1: do transitioning easier.

1983
01:48:40,479 --> 01:48:41,400
Speaker 6: But that's not there.

1984
01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:43,840
Speaker 1: And I feel like like one of the reasons that

1985
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:46,120
Speaker 1: is not there is because if like if it's easy

1986
01:48:46,200 --> 01:48:48,560
Speaker 1: for someone to do transition, get what they need to

1987
01:48:48,640 --> 01:48:51,040
Speaker 1: have a good life, and just move on, then it's

1988
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:53,320
Speaker 1: hard to use those stories. Like you'll have less people

1989
01:48:53,360 --> 01:48:55,479
Speaker 1: who want to, like you know who you can kind

1990
01:48:55,520 --> 01:48:58,360
Speaker 1: of like, uh, you know, indoctrinate into these anti trans

1991
01:48:58,439 --> 01:49:00,840
Speaker 1: ideologies and then use them, you know, as part of

1992
01:49:00,840 --> 01:49:03,040
Speaker 1: the anti trans movement, but also just like I mean,

1993
01:49:03,080 --> 01:49:05,759
Speaker 1: if it's not scary anymore, if you just feel like, okay,

1994
01:49:06,040 --> 01:49:08,320
Speaker 1: like this is just an issue of like making people

1995
01:49:08,520 --> 01:49:10,519
Speaker 1: making sure people get the supports they need so they

1996
01:49:10,520 --> 01:49:12,280
Speaker 1: can just get on with their lives, Like you just

1997
01:49:12,360 --> 01:49:14,519
Speaker 1: treat it as a practical problem that needs to be

1998
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:17,240
Speaker 1: solved instead of using it to feed a trans panic.

1999
01:49:17,680 --> 01:49:21,280
Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's just like the the there's actually like

2000
01:49:21,439 --> 01:49:24,880
Speaker 1: less reasons for gatekeeping. I mean, I feel like like

2001
01:49:25,080 --> 01:49:27,320
Speaker 1: creating like basically you're kind of like creating a safety

2002
01:49:27,439 --> 01:49:29,920
Speaker 1: net for in case, like you know, in case something

2003
01:49:30,120 --> 01:49:34,040
Speaker 1: unexpected or negative happens. So you're like, okay, well, if

2004
01:49:34,080 --> 01:49:36,920
Speaker 1: you transition and things you end up changing your mind

2005
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:39,679
Speaker 1: or things don't work out the way you think they would,

2006
01:49:40,080 --> 01:49:42,680
Speaker 1: here's all these supports you can turn to. So I

2007
01:49:42,760 --> 01:49:45,519
Speaker 1: feel like that's kind of a better long term thing

2008
01:49:45,600 --> 01:49:48,040
Speaker 1: to work for It is, like, okay, like make sure

2009
01:49:48,120 --> 01:49:50,920
Speaker 1: there are supports for people no matter how their transition

2010
01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:54,960
Speaker 1: turns out, Like if then including you know, de transitioning,

2011
01:49:55,080 --> 01:49:58,280
Speaker 1: or if people like you know, face health complications, like

2012
01:49:58,680 --> 01:50:00,760
Speaker 1: make sure that there's like support some place for that.

2013
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:03,040
Speaker 1: Don't use that as an excuse for gatekeeping.

2014
01:50:03,680 --> 01:50:07,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's unfortunately one that I know all too well

2015
01:50:07,240 --> 01:50:08,080
Speaker 6: the consequences of.

2016
01:50:12,000 --> 01:50:14,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think I think also the everything that's

2017
01:50:14,920 --> 01:50:21,360
Speaker 4: going on is there's just like all of these groups

2018
01:50:21,920 --> 01:50:25,680
Speaker 4: see both trans people and people do transitions as just

2019
01:50:26,280 --> 01:50:33,799
Speaker 4: not like like they're you know, they're they're they're violating

2020
01:50:33,880 --> 01:50:37,240
Speaker 4: the content categorical comperative in the sense that they're not

2021
01:50:37,360 --> 01:50:40,200
Speaker 4: treating people as actual humans or treating them as objects

2022
01:50:40,280 --> 01:50:43,680
Speaker 4: or tools. Yes, and once you do, when you do that, right,

2023
01:50:43,840 --> 01:50:46,559
Speaker 4: like everything suddenly, you know, like who cares what happens

2024
01:50:46,560 --> 01:50:48,400
Speaker 4: to these people afterwards because you don't think of them

2025
01:50:48,400 --> 01:50:50,599
Speaker 4: as people. You think of them as just a thing

2026
01:50:50,760 --> 01:50:52,280
Speaker 4: that you're using to do another thing.

2027
01:50:53,400 --> 01:50:55,599
Speaker 6: Mm hm oh yeah. Absolutely.

2028
01:50:56,200 --> 01:50:59,160
Speaker 8: The unfortunate thing is that unfort like this can also

2029
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:02,599
Speaker 8: happen within the community as well. When they are trying

2030
01:51:02,640 --> 01:51:05,040
Speaker 8: to advocate for certain kinds of things, people will end

2031
01:51:05,120 --> 01:51:07,760
Speaker 8: up using each other, oh yeah, as tools in order

2032
01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:09,920
Speaker 8: to meet their own personal goals.

2033
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:13,880
Speaker 4: Speaking of goals, make it your goal to buy these

2034
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:28,040
Speaker 4: products and services. Zh No, we're back.

2035
01:51:29,160 --> 01:51:32,240
Speaker 8: So let's go back a little bit to about like

2036
01:51:32,439 --> 01:51:36,040
Speaker 8: twenty nineteen. Some of the bills are starting to go out.

2037
01:51:36,080 --> 01:51:38,160
Speaker 8: We had the test balloon build that was happening in

2038
01:51:38,240 --> 01:51:42,000
Speaker 8: South Dakota that eventually turned into twenty twenty. Right in

2039
01:51:42,120 --> 01:51:47,479
Speaker 8: this timeframe, an organizing call went out on the Well,

2040
01:51:48,640 --> 01:51:52,000
Speaker 8: the site previously known as Twitter by Kerry Callahan that

2041
01:51:52,160 --> 01:51:56,599
Speaker 8: was looking for people that wanted to advocate for better

2042
01:51:56,720 --> 01:52:01,960
Speaker 8: healthcare outcomes for trans and d trans people. Right during

2043
01:52:02,040 --> 01:52:04,880
Speaker 8: that time frame, I had been starting.

2044
01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:06,840
Speaker 6: To go off of my hormones.

2045
01:52:06,960 --> 01:52:09,400
Speaker 8: I started going off of them a few months prior

2046
01:52:09,479 --> 01:52:13,240
Speaker 8: to that point, and in that time frame, I started

2047
01:52:13,360 --> 01:52:20,200
Speaker 8: experiencing certain types of what seemed like progressive vision loss

2048
01:52:20,600 --> 01:52:27,000
Speaker 8: right my brain I sometimes have a tendency to panic,

2049
01:52:27,120 --> 01:52:30,880
Speaker 8: I guess, especially when it comes to things like health anxiety.

2050
01:52:31,040 --> 01:52:37,800
Speaker 8: My brain started to make the internal connection, did going

2051
01:52:37,960 --> 01:52:41,360
Speaker 8: off of my hormones cause my vision to change?

2052
01:52:41,560 --> 01:52:41,680
Speaker 9: Right?

2053
01:52:42,360 --> 01:52:45,560
Speaker 8: And unfortunately, as I started to talk about this online

2054
01:52:45,640 --> 01:52:48,240
Speaker 8: and the likes, I was getting a lot of encouragement

2055
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:53,720
Speaker 8: from other folks, usually like you know, gender critical, anti transparents,

2056
01:52:53,800 --> 01:52:58,680
Speaker 8: that kind of thing, that yes, absolutely like the hormones

2057
01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:01,680
Speaker 8: were causing me to have vision loss right and it

2058
01:53:01,840 --> 01:53:04,559
Speaker 8: was really impacting my ability to function in my daily

2059
01:53:04,640 --> 01:53:07,080
Speaker 8: life right but another part of me, at the same

2060
01:53:07,200 --> 01:53:10,680
Speaker 8: time as all of this was starting to feel like

2061
01:53:12,000 --> 01:53:14,479
Speaker 8: I was starting to feel aspects of regret and anger,

2062
01:53:15,200 --> 01:53:18,320
Speaker 8: which made me want to do something. This is a

2063
01:53:18,439 --> 01:53:21,200
Speaker 8: very common narrative, right, It made me want to do

2064
01:53:21,400 --> 01:53:23,880
Speaker 8: something so that other people would not end up in

2065
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:26,240
Speaker 8: the situation that I was in. And so I answered

2066
01:53:26,280 --> 01:53:29,760
Speaker 8: this call. Probably not the best of decisions that I

2067
01:53:29,800 --> 01:53:31,720
Speaker 8: could have made for myself, but I decided.

2068
01:53:31,439 --> 01:53:32,280
Speaker 6: To go ahead and do so.

2069
01:53:33,080 --> 01:53:36,880
Speaker 8: Answered Kerrie Calhoun's call. Yes, Yes, I decided to go

2070
01:53:36,960 --> 01:53:40,160
Speaker 8: ahead and say, yes, I will. I will connect in

2071
01:53:40,240 --> 01:53:42,000
Speaker 8: with this. I would like to be a part of it.

2072
01:53:42,400 --> 01:53:44,680
Speaker 8: I had to apparently apologize for talking to the wrong

2073
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:47,640
Speaker 8: clinician in public first.

2074
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:47,920
Speaker 6: But.

2075
01:53:49,400 --> 01:53:52,080
Speaker 1: No, you had to apologize for talking to Jack Turbin

2076
01:53:52,320 --> 01:53:55,600
Speaker 1: because he was too affirming and she was mad that

2077
01:53:55,760 --> 01:53:59,360
Speaker 1: you would speak to him because I was too willing to.

2078
01:54:00,960 --> 01:54:01,200
Speaker 10: Kids.

2079
01:54:01,560 --> 01:54:04,760
Speaker 8: Yes, yes, because he prescribed puberty blockers. I was talking

2080
01:54:04,840 --> 01:54:06,799
Speaker 8: to the wrong clinician and therefore this was not allowed.

2081
01:54:06,880 --> 01:54:13,040
Speaker 8: But anyway, so eventually the actual like organizing committee starts

2082
01:54:13,120 --> 01:54:18,200
Speaker 8: with four people. So it was me Carrie Corina Cone,

2083
01:54:18,240 --> 01:54:21,320
Speaker 8: who was later testifying in favor of some of these bills,

2084
01:54:22,400 --> 01:54:24,880
Speaker 8: and then Grace Leedinsky Smith. There were some other people

2085
01:54:25,040 --> 01:54:28,719
Speaker 8: that were in and out, but they ended up dropping

2086
01:54:28,840 --> 01:54:33,040
Speaker 8: off very early on. So it was predominantly the four

2087
01:54:33,120 --> 01:54:35,480
Speaker 8: of us that ended up being the actual formal board

2088
01:54:35,520 --> 01:54:38,720
Speaker 8: at any point in the early stages, right, And so

2089
01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:41,280
Speaker 8: we started to draft a lot of this stuff. But like,

2090
01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:48,120
Speaker 8: over I was starting to wonder about two things, right, Like,

2091
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:54,640
Speaker 8: after some exchanges with other board members about who it

2092
01:54:54,920 --> 01:54:58,280
Speaker 8: is that we should be predominantly outreaching. Should it be

2093
01:54:58,360 --> 01:55:01,600
Speaker 8: clinicians or should it be people that are actually impacted,

2094
01:55:02,400 --> 01:55:05,760
Speaker 8: people who have gone through gender affirming care, regardless of

2095
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:09,760
Speaker 8: how they identify themselves currently, Like, what is our main priority?

2096
01:55:10,480 --> 01:55:14,160
Speaker 8: The other board member at the time wanted to focus

2097
01:55:14,240 --> 01:55:15,360
Speaker 8: more on the clinician route.

2098
01:55:16,240 --> 01:55:16,720
Speaker 7: I did not.

2099
01:55:17,440 --> 01:55:20,160
Speaker 8: My focus was on if we are going to be

2100
01:55:20,640 --> 01:55:24,720
Speaker 8: doing a quote unquote patient advocacy organization, we should be

2101
01:55:24,840 --> 01:55:28,480
Speaker 8: focusing on the people that we are supposed to be

2102
01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:31,600
Speaker 8: connected to, right, Like, those are who we are.

2103
01:55:32,200 --> 01:55:35,200
Speaker 6: Why would we want to put more power into the

2104
01:55:35,320 --> 01:55:37,840
Speaker 6: hands of the clinicians that supposedly harmed people. That doesn't

2105
01:55:37,840 --> 01:55:43,280
Speaker 6: make any sense, right? And then, like you know, as

2106
01:55:43,360 --> 01:55:44,600
Speaker 6: these wheels were starting to churn.

2107
01:55:44,640 --> 01:55:48,600
Speaker 8: Another part of me was starting to worry that over time,

2108
01:55:49,800 --> 01:55:54,640
Speaker 8: the trajectory of this organization at that point was going

2109
01:55:54,760 --> 01:55:59,280
Speaker 8: to start advocating for more restrictions or full out bands

2110
01:55:59,560 --> 01:56:02,080
Speaker 8: later on in the future, possibly even partnering up with

2111
01:56:02,200 --> 01:56:05,600
Speaker 8: some of the some of the more right wing groups

2112
01:56:05,640 --> 01:56:07,120
Speaker 8: I believe I actually.

2113
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:09,920
Speaker 6: I I think I.

2114
01:56:10,240 --> 01:56:13,839
Speaker 8: I worried about them becoming like the gender care equivalent

2115
01:56:13,880 --> 01:56:20,040
Speaker 8: to Wolf, which was unfortunately pretty accurate, I would say

2116
01:56:20,080 --> 01:56:23,200
Speaker 8: in terms of my my concern that was. That was

2117
01:56:23,280 --> 01:56:26,040
Speaker 8: part of my my formal resignation to the board. I

2118
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:29,320
Speaker 8: stepped down as vice president about five months after I

2119
01:56:29,360 --> 01:56:34,200
Speaker 8: had joined on because I could not see any I

2120
01:56:34,280 --> 01:56:37,600
Speaker 8: could not see any recourse within the group for for

2121
01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:43,880
Speaker 8: changing directions. I couldn't be party to them hurting other people,

2122
01:56:44,440 --> 01:56:46,880
Speaker 8: even if I felt hurt at the time, and so

2123
01:56:47,000 --> 01:56:50,760
Speaker 8: I ended up taking a step back. My vision was

2124
01:56:51,760 --> 01:56:57,520
Speaker 8: still having problems, but you know what ended up making

2125
01:56:57,560 --> 01:57:01,760
Speaker 8: that a lot easier. Actually, it's funny, this is not

2126
01:57:01,880 --> 01:57:05,000
Speaker 8: something that was recommended to me by anybody that I

2127
01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:08,720
Speaker 8: had been talking to about this stuff who had been

2128
01:57:08,840 --> 01:57:14,960
Speaker 8: more exposed to anti trans rhetoric like I I talked

2129
01:57:15,000 --> 01:57:19,080
Speaker 8: to blind people. Yeah, I ended up talking to to

2130
01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:23,680
Speaker 8: blind people. I connected with folks from the National Federation

2131
01:57:23,920 --> 01:57:26,560
Speaker 8: for the Blind. It was a group that was recommended

2132
01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:29,640
Speaker 8: to me by somebody I knew from a from a

2133
01:57:29,760 --> 01:57:32,520
Speaker 8: past job that I had, because she was the daughter

2134
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:35,480
Speaker 8: of somebody who went blind later in life due to

2135
01:57:35,720 --> 01:57:38,600
Speaker 8: a genetic condition, and he was a member of the

2136
01:57:38,800 --> 01:57:41,400
Speaker 8: NFB right he was part of the federation, and so

2137
01:57:41,640 --> 01:57:44,880
Speaker 8: that was her recommendation to me. I hadn't reached out

2138
01:57:44,880 --> 01:57:45,360
Speaker 8: at the time.

2139
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:46,440
Speaker 6: My brain was too.

2140
01:57:47,240 --> 01:57:53,040
Speaker 8: Focused in doing this weird we got to save people

2141
01:57:53,240 --> 01:57:54,920
Speaker 8: kind of bullshit direction.

2142
01:57:55,920 --> 01:57:59,320
Speaker 6: But like eventually, after I'm like.

2143
01:58:00,880 --> 01:58:03,160
Speaker 8: Taking a step back from all of this stuff, I

2144
01:58:03,240 --> 01:58:07,360
Speaker 8: decided to go ahead and pursue that suggestion from you know,

2145
01:58:07,440 --> 01:58:09,880
Speaker 8: this random person in my life, not from anybody I

2146
01:58:09,960 --> 01:58:13,440
Speaker 8: had been connected to in terms of organizing. And when

2147
01:58:13,760 --> 01:58:18,960
Speaker 8: when I went there, like the only thing that I

2148
01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:23,600
Speaker 8: ever got was acceptance. There was no questioning. Nobody asked

2149
01:58:23,960 --> 01:58:30,040
Speaker 8: what happened, Nobody asked like any sort of details about

2150
01:58:30,440 --> 01:58:33,160
Speaker 8: like my my personal views. Like I didn't have to

2151
01:58:33,200 --> 01:58:35,520
Speaker 8: express any forms of like, you know, sorrow or regret

2152
01:58:35,600 --> 01:58:38,640
Speaker 8: or anything like that. A lot of it was focused on, Okay,

2153
01:58:39,400 --> 01:58:41,960
Speaker 8: these are the issues that you're currently dealing with. Here

2154
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:44,360
Speaker 8: are some of the things that you can work on

2155
01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:46,000
Speaker 8: to make your life easier.

2156
01:58:46,280 --> 01:58:46,880
Speaker 6: Here are some.

2157
01:58:47,040 --> 01:58:50,320
Speaker 8: Supports that you can find within your states if you

2158
01:58:50,440 --> 01:58:53,240
Speaker 8: need to do things like you know, get certain kinds

2159
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:56,240
Speaker 8: of mobility training using a white cane and the likes,

2160
01:58:56,960 --> 01:58:58,680
Speaker 8: if you need to learn how to use braille, all

2161
01:58:58,680 --> 01:59:02,120
Speaker 8: of that fun stuff. Here, here's even like specific doctors

2162
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:05,800
Speaker 8: that you could try to go to who can like

2163
01:59:06,280 --> 01:59:09,280
Speaker 8: really assess what's going on with your vision. Because before

2164
01:59:09,360 --> 01:59:11,400
Speaker 8: that point, I did not have access to specialists. I

2165
01:59:11,520 --> 01:59:13,960
Speaker 8: was living in like you know, rural main There was

2166
01:59:14,560 --> 01:59:16,160
Speaker 8: there was nothing there. I would have had to travel

2167
01:59:16,400 --> 01:59:18,360
Speaker 8: like over three hours to go to Boston for me

2168
01:59:18,440 --> 01:59:21,280
Speaker 8: to be able to see as specialist. Instead, like they

2169
01:59:21,320 --> 01:59:25,520
Speaker 8: were able to point me to people who had specializations

2170
01:59:25,640 --> 01:59:30,240
Speaker 8: in like retinal conditions, and so when I went there,

2171
01:59:30,840 --> 01:59:33,600
Speaker 8: you know, they they did their usual tests. They ruled

2172
01:59:33,680 --> 01:59:37,120
Speaker 8: out some things that were known to run in my

2173
01:59:37,240 --> 01:59:42,960
Speaker 8: family actually, but they did ultimately decide that, like my

2174
01:59:43,440 --> 01:59:48,320
Speaker 8: retinas are not processing like correctly, and that it's actually

2175
01:59:48,520 --> 01:59:49,560
Speaker 8: likely genetic.

2176
01:59:50,560 --> 01:59:54,920
Speaker 1: So unrelated to horrormone youth comes related to hormone usage.

2177
01:59:55,040 --> 01:59:57,520
Speaker 8: In fact, you know, as I was going through that process,

2178
01:59:57,600 --> 02:00:01,320
Speaker 8: and I started to reflect on and what my vision

2179
02:00:01,520 --> 02:00:05,920
Speaker 8: was like before I even took hormones, let alone stopping it,

2180
02:00:06,440 --> 02:00:10,640
Speaker 8: Like certain symptoms were actually there, just at a much

2181
02:00:10,800 --> 02:00:16,000
Speaker 8: lower degree. Since, like at least my teens, I already

2182
02:00:16,200 --> 02:00:20,520
Speaker 8: had difficulties with my night vision. I had difficulties with

2183
02:00:21,760 --> 02:00:27,360
Speaker 8: color contrasts. Sometimes my light sensitivity wasn't nearly as bad.

2184
02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:31,160
Speaker 8: Usually it was only with migrains, but over time, like

2185
02:00:31,520 --> 02:00:34,520
Speaker 8: you know, that started to break out more where like

2186
02:00:34,640 --> 02:00:37,080
Speaker 8: even just like you know, there being too much sunlight

2187
02:00:37,280 --> 02:00:40,880
Speaker 8: was painful for me. But like some of this stuff,

2188
02:00:41,040 --> 02:00:45,640
Speaker 8: it definitely predated when I started my transition. But because

2189
02:00:45,800 --> 02:00:50,440
Speaker 8: I wasn't really given space to actually unpack any of

2190
02:00:50,520 --> 02:00:55,120
Speaker 8: this stuff, I didn't really have the ability to make

2191
02:00:55,240 --> 02:01:01,080
Speaker 8: those connections. Instead, what happened was, you know, I join

2192
02:01:01,200 --> 02:01:05,120
Speaker 8: in on this organizing board. I connect in with three

2193
02:01:05,360 --> 02:01:10,360
Speaker 8: other people that were looking to advocate in very particular directions,

2194
02:01:11,200 --> 02:01:17,400
Speaker 8: and like my my story was not something that was

2195
02:01:17,520 --> 02:01:20,920
Speaker 8: meant to get support. My story was something that was

2196
02:01:21,080 --> 02:01:25,720
Speaker 8: meant to scare people. I was also nominated as the spokesperson,

2197
02:01:26,040 --> 02:01:28,880
Speaker 8: which meant I would have had the responsibility to do

2198
02:01:29,080 --> 02:01:31,760
Speaker 8: things like, you know, respond to the press or give

2199
02:01:31,960 --> 02:01:37,360
Speaker 8: sound quotes or whatever. Right, I gave certain kinds of

2200
02:01:37,560 --> 02:01:42,320
Speaker 8: descriptions over to a like a democratic candidate that we

2201
02:01:42,440 --> 02:01:46,000
Speaker 8: had been scheduled to meet with Ryan Starzik at the

2202
02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:50,000
Speaker 8: time down in Arizona, and you know, give the whole spiel, right,

2203
02:01:50,440 --> 02:01:54,280
Speaker 8: you know, a visible trans person with a story that

2204
02:01:54,800 --> 02:01:59,480
Speaker 8: for a lot of people who, like most people, are

2205
02:01:59,560 --> 02:02:03,280
Speaker 8: very conne to their senses, whether that's hearing, vision, touch

2206
02:02:03,400 --> 02:02:07,720
Speaker 8: or whatever, they can't conceptualize a life without them, and

2207
02:02:07,880 --> 02:02:12,839
Speaker 8: so it terrifies them. Right, But like that doesn't actually

2208
02:02:13,000 --> 02:02:15,600
Speaker 8: help the person be able to get to a point

2209
02:02:15,640 --> 02:02:19,760
Speaker 8: where this is a livable life, it's even a frame life.

2210
02:02:20,360 --> 02:02:21,960
Speaker 8: There are certain things that I can do that other

2211
02:02:22,040 --> 02:02:25,080
Speaker 8: people can't do. I can navigate inside the apartment without

2212
02:02:25,160 --> 02:02:27,960
Speaker 8: having the lights on because I know where everything is

2213
02:02:28,040 --> 02:02:30,000
Speaker 8: mapped out of my head, and I can rely on touch.

2214
02:02:30,080 --> 02:02:31,880
Speaker 8: I can pour myself a glass of water and not

2215
02:02:32,040 --> 02:02:34,440
Speaker 8: have to worry about its spilling because I can feel

2216
02:02:34,440 --> 02:02:38,840
Speaker 8: where it like goes up. But that's not really something

2217
02:02:38,880 --> 02:02:42,680
Speaker 8: that like we're not even allowed to think about. We're

2218
02:02:42,720 --> 02:02:45,960
Speaker 8: not even allowed to think about, Like, Okay, so if

2219
02:02:46,240 --> 02:02:50,680
Speaker 8: this thing happens to you and there's documented evidence of it,

2220
02:02:51,000 --> 02:02:55,040
Speaker 8: not like something that's completely imagined, like my brain decided

2221
02:02:55,240 --> 02:02:58,520
Speaker 8: it was, here's what we can do to help. That's

2222
02:02:59,120 --> 02:03:01,640
Speaker 8: that's the kind of things people really need to be

2223
02:03:01,760 --> 02:03:04,480
Speaker 8: able to access, right, you know, if something happens to you,

2224
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:06,800
Speaker 8: these are the things that you can do to be

2225
02:03:06,880 --> 02:03:10,240
Speaker 8: able to work through this and live a more comfortable

2226
02:03:10,520 --> 02:03:12,960
Speaker 8: life in the way that you are happy with. But

2227
02:03:13,480 --> 02:03:15,480
Speaker 8: I don't really see any of that happening to be

2228
02:03:15,560 --> 02:03:21,600
Speaker 8: perfectly frank well, no, Like I'm also thinking back about that,

2229
02:03:21,920 --> 02:03:24,640
Speaker 8: like the standards of care A because like you know,

2230
02:03:24,800 --> 02:03:29,680
Speaker 8: there's this you know, inclusion of aspects of regret and

2231
02:03:29,760 --> 02:03:32,120
Speaker 8: de transition and stuff like that into things like the

2232
02:03:32,160 --> 02:03:35,600
Speaker 8: adolescent chapter. But you know what, they don't include a

2233
02:03:35,720 --> 02:03:39,520
Speaker 8: chapter for de transition support. Yes, no, because they're not

2234
02:03:39,600 --> 02:03:40,200
Speaker 8: serious about that.

2235
02:03:40,280 --> 02:03:41,560
Speaker 1: I guess I just want to use it as like

2236
02:03:42,160 --> 02:03:46,040
Speaker 1: a scared story and a justification for controlling people exactly,

2237
02:03:46,200 --> 02:03:47,960
Speaker 1: you know, putting them through a bunch of assessments or

2238
02:03:48,000 --> 02:03:50,400
Speaker 1: something like that. Like again, I very much believe that

2239
02:03:50,440 --> 02:03:54,480
Speaker 1: there's a connection between like a desire for more gatekeeping

2240
02:03:54,560 --> 02:03:57,280
Speaker 1: and psych assessments, control over trans people and not having

2241
02:03:57,360 --> 02:04:01,360
Speaker 1: support for like de transition transition either because there's not

2242
02:04:01,600 --> 02:04:06,320
Speaker 1: like I feel like there's even less talk or resources

2243
02:04:06,360 --> 02:04:09,400
Speaker 1: for people end up retransitioning after de transitioning, because no

2244
02:04:09,440 --> 02:04:12,160
Speaker 1: one's trying to figure out like, oh, like the idea

2245
02:04:12,240 --> 02:04:15,040
Speaker 1: that transition could just be temporary or that a lot

2246
02:04:15,120 --> 02:04:17,720
Speaker 1: of people you don't go on to retransition later on

2247
02:04:18,000 --> 02:04:20,440
Speaker 1: or just confirms for them that they really are brands.

2248
02:04:20,560 --> 02:04:22,480
Speaker 6: Like that's also a thing that you know, just just

2249
02:04:22,560 --> 02:04:23,800
Speaker 6: people don't really want to touch.

2250
02:04:24,600 --> 02:04:30,920
Speaker 4: It's one of these things where you know, like pain

2251
02:04:31,080 --> 02:04:34,760
Speaker 4: is useful to these people, but like the actual like

2252
02:04:34,880 --> 02:04:39,160
Speaker 4: people experiencing the pain aren't, and you know, and that

2253
02:04:39,280 --> 02:04:41,680
Speaker 4: has its own perversion center cycle because like, yeah, if

2254
02:04:41,920 --> 02:04:44,040
Speaker 4: you want to harvest scare stories, you don't want people

2255
02:04:44,080 --> 02:04:49,640
Speaker 4: getting actual help. And that is an absolutely terrible, incensive

2256
02:04:49,680 --> 02:04:53,480
Speaker 4: structure for making sure people actually get the care and

2257
02:04:53,520 --> 02:04:57,600
Speaker 4: the help that they need, and it absolutely sucks.

2258
02:04:59,240 --> 02:05:03,200
Speaker 1: Just yeah, oh I remember realizing, like when I was

2259
02:05:03,240 --> 02:05:06,400
Speaker 1: still a de Trens radical feminist, like realizing that a

2260
02:05:06,400 --> 02:05:10,400
Speaker 1: whole lot of like people who wanted to restrict or

2261
02:05:10,440 --> 02:05:14,560
Speaker 1: lumny transition like like headed investment in my suffering.

2262
02:05:14,760 --> 02:05:16,800
Speaker 6: Because you know, I was, and I was struggling a

2263
02:05:16,840 --> 02:05:17,360
Speaker 6: lot like I do.

2264
02:05:18,080 --> 02:05:21,360
Speaker 1: It can really be hard to do transition like right

2265
02:05:21,440 --> 02:05:23,520
Speaker 1: now because there are you know, there is a lack

2266
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:26,160
Speaker 1: of resources and support and understanding. But the thing is,

2267
02:05:26,280 --> 02:05:28,720
Speaker 1: like I you know, I kind of slowly realized over time,

2268
02:05:28,760 --> 02:05:30,760
Speaker 1: it's just like, oh, all these people want to use

2269
02:05:30,840 --> 02:05:33,120
Speaker 1: my story, but they need me to suffer for it

2270
02:05:33,280 --> 02:05:35,200
Speaker 1: to like work out for them. Like they don't have

2271
02:05:35,280 --> 02:05:37,800
Speaker 1: any interest in making my life easier, Like they don't

2272
02:05:37,800 --> 02:05:40,000
Speaker 1: have any interest in like helping me like create a

2273
02:05:40,040 --> 02:05:42,280
Speaker 1: good life and being happy. They want me, they really

2274
02:05:42,320 --> 02:05:45,560
Speaker 1: do want me to be ruined and miserable forever because

2275
02:05:45,600 --> 02:05:47,960
Speaker 1: they can use like that's more valuable to them, Like

2276
02:05:48,120 --> 02:05:50,440
Speaker 1: my suffering matters more than my happiness to a lot

2277
02:05:50,440 --> 02:05:52,160
Speaker 1: of these people. Like you know, that was definitely one

2278
02:05:52,160 --> 02:05:54,640
Speaker 1: of those moments where I was like, what, like one

2279
02:05:54,640 --> 02:05:56,880
Speaker 1: of those things that eventually, you know, led me to

2280
02:05:56,920 --> 02:05:58,720
Speaker 1: get disillusion with the whole thing and be like you

2281
02:05:58,760 --> 02:06:01,880
Speaker 1: know what I get myself involved with? But yeah, yeah,

2282
02:06:02,000 --> 02:06:05,120
Speaker 1: it's just it's it is really like sick and perverse.

2283
02:06:05,200 --> 02:06:10,200
Speaker 1: How how anti trans people like you suffering use both

2284
02:06:10,240 --> 02:06:12,520
Speaker 1: trans anti trans people suffering for their own agenda.

2285
02:06:14,160 --> 02:06:14,680
Speaker 6: It's awful.

2286
02:06:16,240 --> 02:06:20,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think this is something that you know,

2287
02:06:21,040 --> 02:06:23,760
Speaker 4: there's this is the sort of it's it's also that

2288
02:06:23,880 --> 02:06:26,040
Speaker 4: there's a broader set of incentives here too, which is

2289
02:06:26,080 --> 02:06:28,160
Speaker 4: the sort of the structure of the media market, right,

2290
02:06:28,200 --> 02:06:32,680
Speaker 4: which that the media that's like the like you know,

2291
02:06:32,720 --> 02:06:36,440
Speaker 4: the the entire media broadly, like you know, like if

2292
02:06:36,680 --> 02:06:38,680
Speaker 4: it bleeds, it leads, right Like that's that's that's the

2293
02:06:38,920 --> 02:06:42,320
Speaker 4: that's the actual media model of you know, everything from

2294
02:06:42,440 --> 02:06:45,760
Speaker 4: like your like shitty local right wing tabloid to like

2295
02:06:45,920 --> 02:06:49,600
Speaker 4: the New York Times, right mm hmm. And the way

2296
02:06:49,680 --> 02:06:53,280
Speaker 4: that this plays out for trans people and for de

2297
02:06:53,360 --> 02:06:55,880
Speaker 4: trans people is that like like the thing that these

2298
02:06:55,920 --> 02:06:58,480
Speaker 4: people that you know, the journalists also are looking for

2299
02:06:59,520 --> 02:07:03,840
Speaker 4: is suffering. Like they don't really care, you know, like

2300
02:07:04,000 --> 02:07:06,800
Speaker 4: they like none of these people ever report stories that

2301
02:07:06,920 --> 02:07:09,600
Speaker 4: are just like hey, like I went to a gender

2302
02:07:09,640 --> 02:07:13,040
Speaker 4: clinic and it was great, Like nobody's gonna read like

2303
02:07:13,160 --> 02:07:14,520
Speaker 4: I don't think anyone's going to read that, Like I

2304
02:07:14,560 --> 02:07:17,440
Speaker 4: would read that because you know that's you know, that's great,

2305
02:07:17,480 --> 02:07:19,160
Speaker 4: but like like they don't care about that that there's

2306
02:07:19,200 --> 02:07:23,680
Speaker 4: there's no sort of sensationalism there. The sensationalism is like,

2307
02:07:24,400 --> 02:07:26,440
Speaker 4: you know, then this is why you get like the

2308
02:07:26,560 --> 02:07:30,040
Speaker 4: Washington Post interviewing this light. You know, like these people

2309
02:07:30,120 --> 02:07:33,200
Speaker 4: who are just like, oh, like I was, I worked

2310
02:07:33,200 --> 02:07:36,000
Speaker 4: at a gender clinic, but I was secretly doing evil

2311
02:07:36,640 --> 02:07:38,760
Speaker 4: or like you know, or or or you get all

2312
02:07:38,800 --> 02:07:40,240
Speaker 4: of it. And this is why a lot of even

2313
02:07:40,320 --> 02:07:44,560
Speaker 4: protrans like media coverage is about things like suicide rates

2314
02:07:44,600 --> 02:07:49,080
Speaker 4: and about things like, you know, like how like how

2315
02:07:49,320 --> 02:07:51,480
Speaker 4: likely you are to die if you don't cut the

2316
02:07:51,480 --> 02:07:54,560
Speaker 4: health care that you need, because it's it's the same

2317
02:07:54,600 --> 02:07:57,200
Speaker 4: as inra structure. It's the thing, the thing that's useful

2318
02:07:57,280 --> 02:08:02,280
Speaker 4: to sell to people is suffering and that I don't

2319
02:08:02,560 --> 02:08:05,720
Speaker 4: know what the solution is to that, because I mean,

2320
02:08:05,760 --> 02:08:09,440
Speaker 4: I don't know have have media that's not based on profit,

2321
02:08:09,880 --> 02:08:18,960
Speaker 4: I guess, but like you know, decommodify the news. But

2322
02:08:19,200 --> 02:08:20,680
Speaker 4: that's one of these things where it's like, you know,

2323
02:08:20,840 --> 02:08:23,880
Speaker 4: like as long as long as like every single like

2324
02:08:24,480 --> 02:08:27,000
Speaker 4: shitty local newspaper is making all of their money from

2325
02:08:27,200 --> 02:08:30,960
Speaker 4: like crime scare stories, they're not going to report. They're

2326
02:08:30,960 --> 02:08:32,680
Speaker 4: not going to You're not gonna get active reporting about

2327
02:08:32,680 --> 02:08:36,120
Speaker 4: police because they need the police to give them, like

2328
02:08:36,200 --> 02:08:38,040
Speaker 4: feed them all of these shitty crime stories, right, And

2329
02:08:38,120 --> 02:08:39,720
Speaker 4: this is the same thing here where it's like you're

2330
02:08:39,760 --> 02:08:43,680
Speaker 4: not going to get actual good reporting about trans people

2331
02:08:43,760 --> 02:08:49,800
Speaker 4: and about people who do transition because nobody actually cares

2332
02:08:49,840 --> 02:08:52,880
Speaker 4: about that because the incentive structure is just suffering and

2333
02:08:52,960 --> 02:08:58,360
Speaker 4: that trickles down through through the healthcare system and through

2334
02:08:59,360 --> 02:09:03,200
Speaker 4: you know, through through the legislative system, and it trickles

2335
02:09:03,240 --> 02:09:06,320
Speaker 4: down through our social networks and what support networks exist

2336
02:09:06,400 --> 02:09:14,320
Speaker 4: and don't exist. And it's a absolutely like if you

2337
02:09:14,400 --> 02:09:17,160
Speaker 4: were just to like ask someone how do you want

2338
02:09:17,200 --> 02:09:21,040
Speaker 4: a society to be run, zero people would answer we

2339
02:09:21,160 --> 02:09:23,160
Speaker 4: want it to be based on the production of suffering.

2340
02:09:23,360 --> 02:09:27,760
Speaker 4: And yet we have done this, but it doesn't have

2341
02:09:28,000 --> 02:09:30,480
Speaker 4: to be like this. To sort of finish that David

2342
02:09:30,520 --> 02:09:34,480
Speaker 4: Graver quote, the ultimate hidden truth of the world is

2343
02:09:34,520 --> 02:09:37,080
Speaker 4: that it is something that we make and could just

2344
02:09:37,160 --> 02:09:40,600
Speaker 4: as easily make differently. So let's go build a world

2345
02:09:40,680 --> 02:09:44,480
Speaker 4: that's safe for trans people. This has been nickeld happened here.

2346
02:09:44,640 --> 02:09:46,600
Speaker 4: You can find more of Lee and Kai's work a

2347
02:09:46,680 --> 02:09:49,280
Speaker 4: Health Liberation Now dot com. I recommend you go do it.

2348
02:09:49,360 --> 02:09:52,960
Speaker 4: It is great and go and make the world.

2349
02:09:52,840 --> 02:10:13,640
Speaker 3: Otherwise welcome back to it could happen here.

2350
02:10:13,960 --> 02:10:17,480
Speaker 2: I am, once again Robert Evans talking about it happening

2351
02:10:17,680 --> 02:10:20,520
Speaker 2: here and in the case of today, because we mean

2352
02:10:20,600 --> 02:10:22,720
Speaker 2: something different every time I introduce the show. That way,

2353
02:10:23,600 --> 02:10:27,839
Speaker 2: we're talking about the carserral state and the worst reactive

2354
02:10:27,880 --> 02:10:32,960
Speaker 2: impulses of society coming for people who use drugs recreationally,

2355
02:10:33,040 --> 02:10:35,320
Speaker 2: who either have a problem or don't with them and

2356
02:10:35,400 --> 02:10:38,120
Speaker 2: simply don't want to go to prison for it. And specifically,

2357
02:10:38,200 --> 02:10:40,560
Speaker 2: we're talking about all of that within the context of

2358
02:10:40,640 --> 02:10:44,320
Speaker 2: the state of Oregon, where I reside, because back in

2359
02:10:44,440 --> 02:10:47,640
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, the state of Oregon passed a measure, the

2360
02:10:47,760 --> 02:10:52,640
Speaker 2: first in the nation, decriminalizing all simple possession and use

2361
02:10:52,920 --> 02:10:58,600
Speaker 2: of street drugs. So heroin, methamphetamine, marijuana was already legal,

2362
02:10:58,680 --> 02:10:58,960
Speaker 2: but you.

2363
02:10:59,000 --> 02:10:59,880
Speaker 3: Know everything is.

2364
02:11:00,120 --> 02:11:03,920
Speaker 2: You can't get arrested for simple possession of small amounts

2365
02:11:04,000 --> 02:11:06,360
Speaker 2: of stuff, right, That's the gist of the law. This

2366
02:11:06,520 --> 02:11:09,840
Speaker 2: passed by a pretty wide margin, fifty eight points something

2367
02:11:09,960 --> 02:11:13,000
Speaker 2: percent of Oregonians voted for it. It was a ballot measure,

2368
02:11:13,160 --> 02:11:18,320
Speaker 2: not something the legislature pushed through, and it came as Oregon,

2369
02:11:18,480 --> 02:11:21,400
Speaker 2: like the rest of the country, was kind of wrapped

2370
02:11:21,520 --> 02:11:25,840
Speaker 2: in the grip of an escalating drug crisis. In twenty twenty,

2371
02:11:25,960 --> 02:11:29,040
Speaker 2: and again that's before the ballot measure passed, Oregon had

2372
02:11:29,080 --> 02:11:31,680
Speaker 2: the second highest rate of drug addiction in the country

2373
02:11:32,120 --> 02:11:35,760
Speaker 2: and ranked nearly last in access to treatment. From twenty

2374
02:11:35,920 --> 02:11:39,120
Speaker 2: nineteen to twenty twenty, opioid overdose deaths in Oregon increased

2375
02:11:39,120 --> 02:11:42,520
Speaker 2: by about seventy percent. So that makes the case that

2376
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:45,720
Speaker 2: the problem prior to the ballot measure was pretty severe

2377
02:11:45,840 --> 02:11:48,360
Speaker 2: and that the current state of affairs, which was everything

2378
02:11:48,480 --> 02:11:51,160
Speaker 2: was illegal and you could go to jail for possession of, say, heroin,

2379
02:11:52,080 --> 02:11:54,360
Speaker 2: was not working out for anybody. However, in the years

2380
02:11:54,400 --> 02:11:57,920
Speaker 2: since the ballot measure passed, overdoses have continued to rise

2381
02:11:58,000 --> 02:12:01,720
Speaker 2: in Oregon, and miraculous almost the drug problem did not

2382
02:12:02,200 --> 02:12:04,240
Speaker 2: solve itself overnight. Now we're gonna be talking about some

2383
02:12:04,320 --> 02:12:05,920
Speaker 2: reasons for that. But now it is time for me

2384
02:12:06,360 --> 02:12:10,480
Speaker 2: to introduce our guest for the episode, Oregon Public Defender

2385
02:12:10,640 --> 02:12:12,760
Speaker 2: Grant Hartley Grant, Welcome.

2386
02:12:12,440 --> 02:12:12,800
Speaker 3: To the show.

2387
02:12:12,920 --> 02:12:14,680
Speaker 12: Yeah, thanks for having me, Robert, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2388
02:12:15,040 --> 02:12:17,560
Speaker 2: So, first off, I wanted to say from where you're

2389
02:12:17,680 --> 02:12:21,760
Speaker 2: standing as somebody whose job is to represent Oregonians generally

2390
02:12:21,840 --> 02:12:24,800
Speaker 2: with the least resources who were charged with crimes. What

2391
02:12:24,960 --> 02:12:27,320
Speaker 2: were you saying prior to one ten and what are

2392
02:12:27,360 --> 02:12:28,080
Speaker 2: you saying after it?

2393
02:12:28,720 --> 02:12:32,960
Speaker 12: Well, I think prior to one ten, we had, you know,

2394
02:12:33,040 --> 02:12:36,120
Speaker 12: a population similar to what we have now, which is

2395
02:12:36,760 --> 02:12:42,840
Speaker 12: individuals who were struggling with houselessness, with housing instability, who

2396
02:12:42,960 --> 02:12:45,440
Speaker 12: were struggling with mental health. And as a result of

2397
02:12:45,640 --> 02:12:50,800
Speaker 12: many of those factors and others were copied with substances,

2398
02:12:51,280 --> 02:12:54,800
Speaker 12: and as a result of that, many of them would

2399
02:12:54,800 --> 02:12:57,800
Speaker 12: get wrapped into the legal system. And one of the

2400
02:12:57,880 --> 02:13:01,440
Speaker 12: issues with our legal system is that it is based

2401
02:13:01,600 --> 02:13:06,480
Speaker 12: on compulsion, and so when someone came into the system

2402
02:13:06,960 --> 02:13:09,880
Speaker 12: with a drug problem, our first reaction is to compel

2403
02:13:09,920 --> 02:13:12,560
Speaker 12: them into treatment, to force them into treatment, even though

2404
02:13:12,720 --> 02:13:17,480
Speaker 12: we know that that is not effective, and you know

2405
02:13:17,680 --> 02:13:20,800
Speaker 12: at times it can be. And generally where you see

2406
02:13:20,880 --> 02:13:24,280
Speaker 12: the most success with it is where there's more hanging

2407
02:13:24,320 --> 02:13:26,880
Speaker 12: over the person's head, more leverage that the system has.

2408
02:13:27,320 --> 02:13:30,320
Speaker 12: And so, you know, somebody who has a substance use

2409
02:13:30,400 --> 02:13:33,560
Speaker 12: disorder and commits a robbery and is put on probation

2410
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:36,080
Speaker 12: and they have a choice between going to prison and

2411
02:13:36,400 --> 02:13:41,240
Speaker 12: doing treatment, much more likely to engage in treatment. But

2412
02:13:41,440 --> 02:13:44,920
Speaker 12: when you have low level possession, where as a society

2413
02:13:45,000 --> 02:13:48,040
Speaker 12: we've deemed that should not be punished by prison, and

2414
02:13:48,400 --> 02:13:51,360
Speaker 12: frankly that should not be punished by jail. The problem

2415
02:13:51,520 --> 02:13:54,080
Speaker 12: is is that the only tool that the system has

2416
02:13:54,600 --> 02:13:57,280
Speaker 12: is jail, and so if somebody says I'm not ready

2417
02:13:57,280 --> 02:14:00,000
Speaker 12: for treatment, the system says, well, we're going to put

2418
02:14:00,120 --> 02:14:01,720
Speaker 12: you in jail that and then they go to jail,

2419
02:14:02,320 --> 02:14:06,160
Speaker 12: they're what little they have is destabilized and they get

2420
02:14:06,240 --> 02:14:09,800
Speaker 12: out without any treatment. And as you mentioned in the opening,

2421
02:14:09,880 --> 02:14:14,200
Speaker 12: the biggest thing is just the incredible dearth of services

2422
02:14:14,640 --> 02:14:20,240
Speaker 12: in our community. There is not nearly enough outpatient treatment,

2423
02:14:20,280 --> 02:14:23,880
Speaker 12: but especially in patient treatment, and that's that's important for

2424
02:14:23,920 --> 02:14:27,040
Speaker 12: those houseless folks, because you can't expect somebody to engage

2425
02:14:27,080 --> 02:14:29,400
Speaker 12: in outpatient treatment and then go back and sleep on

2426
02:14:29,480 --> 02:14:32,640
Speaker 12: the street at night and not use So I know

2427
02:14:33,120 --> 02:14:35,760
Speaker 12: that's I think the general gist of what it looked like.

2428
02:14:36,520 --> 02:14:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's all really important to keep in mind,

2429
02:14:40,080 --> 02:14:42,240
Speaker 2: and it's particularly important and the reason we're doing this

2430
02:14:42,440 --> 02:14:45,600
Speaker 2: episode is because the last two years really is when

2431
02:14:45,640 --> 02:14:50,680
Speaker 2: it's escalated. We have seen this increasing and very organized

2432
02:14:50,760 --> 02:14:53,160
Speaker 2: campaign against One ten and it's being pushed by the

2433
02:14:53,240 --> 02:14:55,680
Speaker 2: police who are angry that they're not able to arrest

2434
02:14:55,840 --> 02:14:58,800
Speaker 2: more people, particularly more homeless people. It's pushed by a

2435
02:14:58,840 --> 02:15:01,120
Speaker 2: lot of business owners who have convinced themselves that the

2436
02:15:01,200 --> 02:15:03,560
Speaker 2: reason why downtown Portland has had such a hard couple

2437
02:15:03,560 --> 02:15:06,240
Speaker 2: of years is because there's too many homeless people and

2438
02:15:06,360 --> 02:15:07,840
Speaker 2: they can go after them and get them off the

2439
02:15:07,880 --> 02:15:10,240
Speaker 2: street by having them arrested. This is all my opinion,

2440
02:15:10,480 --> 02:15:12,560
Speaker 2: not yours here, but there has been What is not

2441
02:15:12,720 --> 02:15:15,280
Speaker 2: up for opinion is that there has been an escalating

2442
02:15:15,400 --> 02:15:18,240
Speaker 2: campaign to portray the measure as a disaster and to

2443
02:15:18,360 --> 02:15:22,120
Speaker 2: portray it as the center of particularly Portland's ills, but

2444
02:15:22,280 --> 02:15:25,960
Speaker 2: also more broadly the state of Oregon's ills. And I

2445
02:15:26,000 --> 02:15:28,880
Speaker 2: think there's a number of reasons why that's dishonest, which

2446
02:15:28,880 --> 02:15:31,760
Speaker 2: we'll talk about. But where that's kind of culminated now

2447
02:15:32,040 --> 02:15:34,760
Speaker 2: is this year. There are two big pushes to get

2448
02:15:34,880 --> 02:15:36,680
Speaker 2: rid of one ten. One of them is the push

2449
02:15:37,520 --> 02:15:40,200
Speaker 2: by a ballot measure or to put out a ballot

2450
02:15:40,200 --> 02:15:43,520
Speaker 2: measure basically repealing one ten as it exists, and the

2451
02:15:43,600 --> 02:15:45,720
Speaker 2: other is a push by the legislature. And you kind

2452
02:15:45,760 --> 02:15:48,840
Speaker 2: of have separate plans pushed by the DIMS and the

2453
02:15:48,920 --> 02:15:52,360
Speaker 2: Republicans to in the case of the Republican plan, basically

2454
02:15:52,440 --> 02:15:54,160
Speaker 2: put things back to the way they were, if not

2455
02:15:54,320 --> 02:15:56,480
Speaker 2: more severe in terms of your ability to arrest people

2456
02:15:56,520 --> 02:16:00,680
Speaker 2: for possession. And the Democrats' plans is to re criminalized

2457
02:16:00,680 --> 02:16:03,440
Speaker 2: possession but make it all basically at the lowest level

2458
02:16:03,480 --> 02:16:06,040
Speaker 2: of misdemeanor. I don't think either of those are good plans,

2459
02:16:06,080 --> 02:16:07,680
Speaker 2: But I wanted to talk about kind of how you

2460
02:16:07,680 --> 02:16:11,600
Speaker 2: would characterize the backlash campaign against one ten and how

2461
02:16:11,680 --> 02:16:13,960
Speaker 2: much of it do you think is rooted in actual

2462
02:16:14,080 --> 02:16:15,080
Speaker 2: problems caused.

2463
02:16:14,880 --> 02:16:15,440
Speaker 3: By the measure?

2464
02:16:15,920 --> 02:16:19,840
Speaker 12: No, I mean it is caused the most of the backlash.

2465
02:16:20,280 --> 02:16:22,360
Speaker 12: I would agree with you that it is a lot

2466
02:16:22,400 --> 02:16:25,360
Speaker 12: of business communities, but it's also just you know, average

2467
02:16:25,400 --> 02:16:30,760
Speaker 12: Portlanders because what they see is people on the streets struggling,

2468
02:16:31,400 --> 02:16:35,840
Speaker 12: using drugs in public because that is the only place

2469
02:16:35,920 --> 02:16:40,000
Speaker 12: that they can use drugs, and you know, that's a

2470
02:16:40,120 --> 02:16:43,280
Speaker 12: problem of houselessness. They people have to ask themselves, am

2471
02:16:43,320 --> 02:16:45,360
Speaker 12: I upset that I'm seeing somebody use drugs? Or am

2472
02:16:45,360 --> 02:16:47,840
Speaker 12: I upset that this person is sleeping on the street

2473
02:16:48,000 --> 02:16:50,160
Speaker 12: and needing to use the drugs in the street. And

2474
02:16:50,480 --> 02:16:52,320
Speaker 12: that is the same of business owners. You know, they

2475
02:16:52,720 --> 02:16:55,520
Speaker 12: call and complain that there's somebody on the stoop next

2476
02:16:55,560 --> 02:16:59,520
Speaker 12: to them using fentanyl, But is the issue that that

2477
02:16:59,600 --> 02:17:01,680
Speaker 12: person is using fentanyl or is the issue that that

2478
02:17:01,800 --> 02:17:04,040
Speaker 12: person is on the stoop next to them? Because there

2479
02:17:04,080 --> 02:17:06,640
Speaker 12: are no housing services in our city and so really

2480
02:17:07,120 --> 02:17:11,080
Speaker 12: Measure one ten is being scapegoaded for two huge issues,

2481
02:17:11,120 --> 02:17:14,720
Speaker 12: which is the influx of synthetic heroin or fentanyl into

2482
02:17:14,760 --> 02:17:18,480
Speaker 12: our community and into every community around the nation. It

2483
02:17:18,640 --> 02:17:25,120
Speaker 12: is not restricted to Portland or to Oregon because we decriminalized,

2484
02:17:25,400 --> 02:17:29,480
Speaker 12: it is everywhere. And then just the houselessness crisis, which

2485
02:17:30,120 --> 02:17:33,840
Speaker 12: is tremendous in our city. It is so bad, and

2486
02:17:34,879 --> 02:17:40,360
Speaker 12: people are essentially arguing that because we decriminalize drugs, more

2487
02:17:40,480 --> 02:17:44,000
Speaker 12: people are on the street, and I just don't think

2488
02:17:44,040 --> 02:17:45,720
Speaker 12: that there is any data to support that.

2489
02:17:46,680 --> 02:17:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think part of the reason why people

2490
02:17:51,040 --> 02:17:54,480
Speaker 2: suspect that is again because of how much dramatically worse

2491
02:17:54,560 --> 02:17:57,279
Speaker 2: the problem has gotten in recent years. But it's gotten

2492
02:17:57,360 --> 02:18:01,199
Speaker 2: worse everywhere. It's gotten worse in states like Oklahoma, where

2493
02:18:01,520 --> 02:18:04,800
Speaker 2: it is and has remained very illegal to possess this stuff.

2494
02:18:05,720 --> 02:18:09,160
Speaker 2: Oregon is not the state with the worst death problem

2495
02:18:09,320 --> 02:18:12,040
Speaker 2: due to drugs, per capita, and the states that are

2496
02:18:12,160 --> 02:18:15,080
Speaker 2: worse or are worse in various ways, are all states

2497
02:18:15,160 --> 02:18:18,120
Speaker 2: in which it's criminalized. It's very frustrated to me when

2498
02:18:18,160 --> 02:18:19,840
Speaker 2: you look at like, well, we passed one ten in

2499
02:18:19,920 --> 02:18:22,240
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, and these problems have gotten worse since, and

2500
02:18:22,280 --> 02:18:23,840
Speaker 2: it's like, well, but these are all problems that have

2501
02:18:23,920 --> 02:18:26,240
Speaker 2: gotten worse everywhere, and they are problems that are not

2502
02:18:26,560 --> 02:18:28,959
Speaker 2: driven by legality or at least the fact that it's

2503
02:18:29,000 --> 02:18:31,640
Speaker 2: no longer criminal to possess heroin. It's driven by the

2504
02:18:31,680 --> 02:18:34,560
Speaker 2: fact that we had a horrible pandemic that traumatized people.

2505
02:18:34,640 --> 02:18:37,240
Speaker 2: They lost loved ones, they lost jobs, they lost support.

2506
02:18:37,600 --> 02:18:39,440
Speaker 2: It's driven by the fact that the price of housing

2507
02:18:39,520 --> 02:18:42,800
Speaker 2: continues to rise. It's driven by inflation. It's driven by

2508
02:18:42,840 --> 02:18:45,640
Speaker 2: the fact that, I mean, to no small part, everybody's

2509
02:18:45,680 --> 02:18:48,240
Speaker 2: got brain worms from social media. That's not a zero

2510
02:18:48,440 --> 02:18:52,320
Speaker 2: percent factor in both people's anger at the houseless and

2511
02:18:52,600 --> 02:18:54,640
Speaker 2: in the fact that people are falling through the cracks.

2512
02:18:54,760 --> 02:18:56,640
Speaker 3: Like we have a million different things.

2513
02:18:56,680 --> 02:18:59,440
Speaker 2: I don't mean the list that is a comprehensive list

2514
02:18:59,480 --> 02:19:04,240
Speaker 2: of our problems, either, like drug addiction and drug deaths

2515
02:19:04,320 --> 02:19:07,240
Speaker 2: due to overdoses are caused by a variety of things.

2516
02:19:07,320 --> 02:19:09,840
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why the death rate has

2517
02:19:09,920 --> 02:19:13,200
Speaker 2: been so high is that if you're addicted to heroin,

2518
02:19:13,440 --> 02:19:16,920
Speaker 2: you can't just stop doing heroin or the consequences are really,

2519
02:19:17,040 --> 02:19:19,000
Speaker 2: really horrible, worse than a lot of people are going

2520
02:19:19,040 --> 02:19:22,120
Speaker 2: to deal with. And so people keep using, and they

2521
02:19:22,240 --> 02:19:25,160
Speaker 2: keep getting drugs that have been tainted with fentanyl, and

2522
02:19:25,240 --> 02:19:27,920
Speaker 2: it's hard not to die doing that. Like, rich people

2523
02:19:28,040 --> 02:19:30,520
Speaker 2: can continue to test their kids. People who are you know,

2524
02:19:30,640 --> 02:19:33,880
Speaker 2: have had the benefit of not just education, but a

2525
02:19:33,959 --> 02:19:36,480
Speaker 2: stable home in which to do drugs and sort of

2526
02:19:36,560 --> 02:19:39,360
Speaker 2: the resources to know and to be able to test

2527
02:19:39,400 --> 02:19:41,879
Speaker 2: their shit, will test their shit. But most street level

2528
02:19:41,959 --> 02:19:46,400
Speaker 2: users don't have that kind of option. And it frustrates

2529
02:19:46,440 --> 02:19:50,520
Speaker 2: me that it's all getting scapegoaded this on this ballot measure,

2530
02:19:50,560 --> 02:19:52,240
Speaker 2: And so I wanted to talk a little bit about

2531
02:19:53,000 --> 02:19:55,800
Speaker 2: how they're attempting to go after one ten because it

2532
02:19:55,879 --> 02:20:00,200
Speaker 2: looks like right now the primary threat is legislative part,

2533
02:20:00,280 --> 02:20:03,720
Speaker 2: because if they push another ballot measure, Oregonians get to

2534
02:20:03,800 --> 02:20:06,560
Speaker 2: vote and we'll see how they vote. But reversing it

2535
02:20:06,680 --> 02:20:09,240
Speaker 2: by ten, you know, almost a ten percent lead, is

2536
02:20:09,320 --> 02:20:11,080
Speaker 2: not an easy thing to do, and I kind of

2537
02:20:11,160 --> 02:20:14,240
Speaker 2: think Oregonians might surprise them in terms of not being

2538
02:20:14,320 --> 02:20:17,640
Speaker 2: willing to repeal this thing legislatively. We don't have really

2539
02:20:17,959 --> 02:20:20,000
Speaker 2: that kind of option against it. If they're able to

2540
02:20:20,040 --> 02:20:23,480
Speaker 2: get a kind of enough people behind an essential repeal,

2541
02:20:23,959 --> 02:20:26,480
Speaker 2: and they'll frame it as you know, we're just trying

2542
02:20:26,520 --> 02:20:28,440
Speaker 2: to tinker with the law to make it work better.

2543
02:20:28,480 --> 02:20:30,520
Speaker 2: But if they can get enough people behind that, there's

2544
02:20:30,560 --> 02:20:32,440
Speaker 2: really nothing to do about it, right, Yeah.

2545
02:20:32,360 --> 02:20:35,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, And I think you know, one of the things that,

2546
02:20:35,920 --> 02:20:38,240
Speaker 12: in my opinion was a strategy on the part of

2547
02:20:38,560 --> 02:20:40,960
Speaker 12: the opponents of one ten was I mean, they have

2548
02:20:41,120 --> 02:20:44,640
Speaker 12: some very wealthy financial backers, yes, and so you know

2549
02:20:44,879 --> 02:20:48,200
Speaker 12: it is not cheap to do a ballot measure, and

2550
02:20:48,879 --> 02:20:52,280
Speaker 12: you know, they know that they can use that money

2551
02:20:52,400 --> 02:20:54,880
Speaker 12: to do media buys and to spread all of the

2552
02:20:54,959 --> 02:20:58,720
Speaker 12: misinformation that they've been spreading thus far. And I think

2553
02:20:58,840 --> 02:21:01,560
Speaker 12: that frankly, there are people in the legislature that don't

2554
02:21:01,680 --> 02:21:05,879
Speaker 12: want to recriminalize but feel that it is the lesser

2555
02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:09,160
Speaker 12: of two evils. And the unfortunate thing is that what

2556
02:21:09,320 --> 02:21:12,000
Speaker 12: we are essentially doing is delivering them a watered down

2557
02:21:12,120 --> 02:21:14,440
Speaker 12: version of that ballot measure. And they were intentional in

2558
02:21:14,480 --> 02:21:16,240
Speaker 12: that ballot measure. I mean, they made it as bad

2559
02:21:16,320 --> 02:21:19,920
Speaker 12: as could be. That it includes more than just recriminalization.

2560
02:21:20,800 --> 02:21:23,720
Speaker 12: You know, it includes what is commonly known as lend

2561
02:21:23,800 --> 02:21:27,280
Speaker 12: bias law in federal courts, which is essentially that people

2562
02:21:27,320 --> 02:21:30,840
Speaker 12: who deliver a substance that causes an overdose can be

2563
02:21:30,920 --> 02:21:36,400
Speaker 12: prosecuted essentially for murder. And it is a archaic understanding

2564
02:21:36,520 --> 02:21:39,480
Speaker 12: of how the distribution of drugs works or the testing

2565
02:21:39,520 --> 02:21:42,480
Speaker 12: of drugs works, And so they tried to make it

2566
02:21:42,560 --> 02:21:44,840
Speaker 12: as bad as possible in order for the legislature to

2567
02:21:44,959 --> 02:21:47,920
Speaker 12: essentially go, well, we don't want that to happen. And

2568
02:21:48,120 --> 02:21:50,840
Speaker 12: you know, I would worry about a ballot measure. I mean,

2569
02:21:51,000 --> 02:21:53,560
Speaker 12: I agree with you that it's a big swing, and

2570
02:21:54,160 --> 02:21:58,120
Speaker 12: I have faith in the voters of Oregon. But the

2571
02:21:58,240 --> 02:22:02,480
Speaker 12: fact is is that the media has portrayed this very unfairly.

2572
02:22:02,959 --> 02:22:05,880
Speaker 12: You know, there was an article recently from the editorial

2573
02:22:06,120 --> 02:22:11,440
Speaker 12: board at The Oregonian and they advocated for recriminalization, and

2574
02:22:11,760 --> 02:22:15,199
Speaker 12: in it they cited that they want a data driven approach.

2575
02:22:15,600 --> 02:22:17,879
Speaker 12: There was not a piece of data in that article.

2576
02:22:18,200 --> 02:22:21,920
Speaker 12: It was all based on misinformation. And the same is true.

2577
02:22:21,959 --> 02:22:24,760
Speaker 12: I mean, law enforcement are the worst about this. You know,

2578
02:22:24,879 --> 02:22:28,120
Speaker 12: they're constantly saying, oh, well, we just want tools so

2579
02:22:28,280 --> 02:22:31,520
Speaker 12: that we can confiscate the drugs and so that we

2580
02:22:31,760 --> 02:22:34,360
Speaker 12: can refer people to treatment, because we all know that's

2581
02:22:34,640 --> 02:22:37,160
Speaker 12: all police officers want to do. And yet when you

2582
02:22:37,360 --> 02:22:40,320
Speaker 12: look at the E citations that came out of Measure

2583
02:22:40,360 --> 02:22:43,440
Speaker 12: one ten, those were meant as to be a referral tool.

2584
02:22:44,000 --> 02:22:45,680
Speaker 12: And that was one of the big mistakes of one

2585
02:22:45,760 --> 02:22:49,400
Speaker 12: ten is trying to use police officers as an ambassador

2586
02:22:49,560 --> 02:22:54,240
Speaker 12: for treatment. There is a culture in the police community

2587
02:22:54,720 --> 02:22:58,560
Speaker 12: that it treats drugs as crimes. Right, you are a

2588
02:22:58,640 --> 02:23:01,040
Speaker 12: criminal if you are a drug user, and I am not.

2589
02:23:01,240 --> 02:23:03,080
Speaker 12: You know, I'm not saying police are a monolith. I'm

2590
02:23:03,120 --> 02:23:06,279
Speaker 12: saying that is the culture that exists. And to expect

2591
02:23:06,400 --> 02:23:10,080
Speaker 12: them to change that overnight because the voters said they

2592
02:23:10,120 --> 02:23:14,480
Speaker 12: wanted to decriminalize was rather naive and it's obvious because

2593
02:23:15,040 --> 02:23:19,000
Speaker 12: just here in Maltnoma County, I think in basically a

2594
02:23:19,160 --> 02:23:22,120
Speaker 12: twenty four month period they issued something like nine hundred

2595
02:23:22,680 --> 02:23:25,360
Speaker 12: E citations or that was during a thirty month period,

2596
02:23:25,360 --> 02:23:28,200
Speaker 12: excuse me. And during a twenty four month period in

2597
02:23:28,320 --> 02:23:32,480
Speaker 12: twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen, they arrested more than thirty

2598
02:23:32,520 --> 02:23:36,400
Speaker 12: three hundred people on PCs, and that is what nearly

2599
02:23:36,520 --> 02:23:39,400
Speaker 12: three times more than three times as many people when

2600
02:23:39,400 --> 02:23:41,720
Speaker 12: they were able to put handcuffs on the people that

2601
02:23:41,840 --> 02:23:45,600
Speaker 12: they were meeting with, and Maltnoma County was actually better

2602
02:23:45,680 --> 02:23:48,280
Speaker 12: than a most you look at Washington County, seventy one

2603
02:23:48,320 --> 02:23:53,040
Speaker 12: e citations in thirty months. Seventy one tickets were given

2604
02:23:53,080 --> 02:23:54,960
Speaker 12: on this and the ticket was supposed to be the

2605
02:23:55,080 --> 02:23:59,080
Speaker 12: tool by which somebody is referred to treatment, and so

2606
02:23:59,320 --> 02:24:02,400
Speaker 12: you know, in some ways, Measure one ten had some

2607
02:24:02,720 --> 02:24:06,760
Speaker 12: serious structural and implementation issues, but that doesn't mean that

2608
02:24:06,879 --> 02:24:09,200
Speaker 12: we just go back to what the voters saw.

2609
02:24:10,320 --> 02:24:12,400
Speaker 2: One of the things that was the biggest issue in

2610
02:24:12,480 --> 02:24:15,320
Speaker 2: implementation is that a lot of funds were supposed to

2611
02:24:15,360 --> 02:24:17,840
Speaker 2: be redirected, I think from marijuana sales was one of

2612
02:24:17,879 --> 02:24:21,440
Speaker 2: the places to treatment facilities and treatment options for people

2613
02:24:21,760 --> 02:24:23,560
Speaker 2: like these people who are supposed to be getting tickets

2614
02:24:23,560 --> 02:24:25,800
Speaker 2: instead of arrested for drug use were supposed to being

2615
02:24:26,320 --> 02:24:30,640
Speaker 2: kind of pushed gently towards options, but the actual money

2616
02:24:30,720 --> 02:24:33,480
Speaker 2: for those options took more than a year to start arriving,

2617
02:24:33,600 --> 02:24:35,920
Speaker 2: and it is still not at a very good clip

2618
02:24:36,000 --> 02:24:37,920
Speaker 2: and there's a number of reasons for this, but like

2619
02:24:39,320 --> 02:24:41,760
Speaker 2: when they frame it as like will be decriminalized stuff,

2620
02:24:41,800 --> 02:24:43,760
Speaker 2: and all these problems kept getting worse, It's like, well,

2621
02:24:43,800 --> 02:24:45,920
Speaker 2: for one thing, they kept getting worse. They were getting

2622
02:24:45,959 --> 02:24:47,960
Speaker 2: worse when everything was illegal at a rapid pace. And

2623
02:24:48,080 --> 02:24:50,720
Speaker 2: number two, you didn't do what was supposed to be

2624
02:24:50,800 --> 02:24:53,240
Speaker 2: half of the measure, which was increasing the amount of

2625
02:24:53,400 --> 02:24:54,680
Speaker 2: care that people had access to.

2626
02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:55,080
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2627
02:24:55,120 --> 02:24:57,560
Speaker 12: Absolutely, And would to hear people talk about it now.

2628
02:24:57,600 --> 02:24:59,720
Speaker 12: I mean during a legislative committee, I think there was

2629
02:25:00,120 --> 02:25:03,680
Speaker 12: one representative or senator who said to take well, why

2630
02:25:03,879 --> 02:25:05,840
Speaker 12: did it take so long for this to get implemented?

2631
02:25:06,280 --> 02:25:08,560
Speaker 12: It was twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Like people

2632
02:25:08,840 --> 02:25:13,400
Speaker 12: are quickly forgetting how chaotic things were that And the

2633
02:25:13,520 --> 02:25:15,720
Speaker 12: other thing is that when you put that money into

2634
02:25:15,760 --> 02:25:18,880
Speaker 12: the system, it takes a while to build beds, to

2635
02:25:19,600 --> 02:25:22,840
Speaker 12: hire people to do that. And what the opponents of

2636
02:25:22,879 --> 02:25:24,920
Speaker 12: one ten are doing, what the people seeking to recriminalize

2637
02:25:24,920 --> 02:25:28,240
Speaker 12: they're doing, and they're really praying on our collective impatience.

2638
02:25:28,840 --> 02:25:28,960
Speaker 10: You know.

2639
02:25:29,400 --> 02:25:32,720
Speaker 12: It's they're saying, oh, well, you know, nobody is going

2640
02:25:33,040 --> 02:25:36,840
Speaker 12: and voluntarily engaging in treatment. Therefore we must mandate it,

2641
02:25:37,200 --> 02:25:40,360
Speaker 12: and again, no one's voluntarily engaging in treatment because there's

2642
02:25:40,440 --> 02:25:43,959
Speaker 12: no treatment available to voluntarily engage in. And the idea

2643
02:25:44,040 --> 02:25:47,520
Speaker 12: that by making it criminal we can somehow fix that

2644
02:25:48,400 --> 02:25:51,240
Speaker 12: is actually counterproductive because we're taking all those funds that

2645
02:25:51,320 --> 02:25:55,040
Speaker 12: we could be putting into additional services into outreach, and

2646
02:25:55,160 --> 02:25:58,440
Speaker 12: we're instead putting it back into law enforcement or into probation,

2647
02:25:58,640 --> 02:26:00,840
Speaker 12: or into the jails or into the state lab to

2648
02:26:01,000 --> 02:26:01,840
Speaker 12: test these drugs.

2649
02:26:02,400 --> 02:26:04,120
Speaker 2: And I want to continue off of that, and I

2650
02:26:04,200 --> 02:26:06,240
Speaker 2: want to talk bring out some more data too, but

2651
02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:08,720
Speaker 2: first we have to go do a plug to ads.

2652
02:26:08,920 --> 02:26:20,520
Speaker 2: So here's ads, folks, all.

2653
02:26:20,480 --> 02:26:21,280
Speaker 3: Right, we are back.

2654
02:26:22,080 --> 02:26:23,800
Speaker 2: We're back, And I wanted to I think there's two

2655
02:26:23,920 --> 02:26:26,360
Speaker 2: really good things to keep in mind when as an

2656
02:26:26,400 --> 02:26:29,720
Speaker 2: Oregonian you're arguing with friends and family about one ten

2657
02:26:30,160 --> 02:26:31,879
Speaker 2: or if you're outside of the state and people bring

2658
02:26:31,920 --> 02:26:34,080
Speaker 2: it up because they saw like a three minute piece

2659
02:26:34,160 --> 02:26:36,960
Speaker 2: on Fox News where some smarmy asshole talk to a

2660
02:26:37,040 --> 02:26:40,000
Speaker 2: guy on the street, you know you should be aware

2661
02:26:40,000 --> 02:26:41,800
Speaker 2: of a couple of things. Number One, when people talk

2662
02:26:41,840 --> 02:26:44,280
Speaker 2: about how it's not working, the thing that you should

2663
02:26:44,280 --> 02:26:45,920
Speaker 2: bring up is like, well, what about the forty years

2664
02:26:46,000 --> 02:26:48,640
Speaker 2: or so of criminalization prior like that led us to

2665
02:26:48,760 --> 02:26:51,840
Speaker 2: this point and at which the acceleration in depths was highest.

2666
02:26:52,720 --> 02:26:55,480
Speaker 2: And the other thing to bring up is, well, there's

2667
02:26:55,720 --> 02:26:59,480
Speaker 2: these claims that, like public disorder, drug use, all this stuff,

2668
02:26:59,520 --> 02:27:03,400
Speaker 2: overdose deaths have gotten worse since one ten. There's no

2669
02:27:03,520 --> 02:27:06,320
Speaker 2: evidence that that's the case, right, And there was in

2670
02:27:06,400 --> 02:27:09,560
Speaker 2: fact a study into this by New York University that

2671
02:27:09,640 --> 02:27:13,400
Speaker 2: found no evidence of an association between decriminalization and fatal

2672
02:27:13,480 --> 02:27:16,640
Speaker 2: overdose rates in Oregon and Washington. And I want to

2673
02:27:16,640 --> 02:27:20,240
Speaker 2: read a couple of quotes from that study. So, first off, quote,

2674
02:27:20,320 --> 02:27:22,880
Speaker 2: publicly available calls for service data were used to compare

2675
02:27:22,959 --> 02:27:26,840
Speaker 2: Portland's use of the nine to one one system to Boise, Idaho, Sacramento, California,

2676
02:27:26,920 --> 02:27:30,440
Speaker 2: and Seattle, Washington, before and after one ten. This was

2677
02:27:30,600 --> 02:27:33,959
Speaker 2: between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty two. Public initiated calls

2678
02:27:34,000 --> 02:27:36,640
Speaker 2: for service did not change after BM one ten was

2679
02:27:36,720 --> 02:27:39,080
Speaker 2: enacted in Portland. Portland's nine one one calls for service

2680
02:27:39,160 --> 02:27:42,240
Speaker 2: data align with comparison cities for property, disorderly and vice

2681
02:27:42,280 --> 02:27:46,440
Speaker 2: offenses with similar seasonally fluctuations. So, for one thing, what

2682
02:27:46,560 --> 02:27:48,480
Speaker 2: you'll notice is that a lot of the articles about

2683
02:27:48,520 --> 02:27:50,760
Speaker 2: one ten started to hit both when we would have

2684
02:27:51,120 --> 02:27:53,160
Speaker 2: winter weather come in and summer weather come in. Both

2685
02:27:53,200 --> 02:27:55,960
Speaker 2: of those lead the surges in overdoses and drug use.

2686
02:27:56,040 --> 02:27:58,680
Speaker 2: Because the weather's shitty, right, people have less to do,

2687
02:27:58,840 --> 02:28:01,640
Speaker 2: less options, and actually, if you're living outside it's one

2688
02:28:01,720 --> 02:28:04,920
Speaker 2: hundred during the day or it's twelve, maybe you want

2689
02:28:04,959 --> 02:28:08,600
Speaker 2: to do drugs more because you're uncomfortable. Right. Yeah, So

2690
02:28:09,160 --> 02:28:12,800
Speaker 2: again I think that it's important. There's this study from

2691
02:28:12,840 --> 02:28:15,840
Speaker 2: New York University on one ten and you know, it's

2692
02:28:15,959 --> 02:28:18,280
Speaker 2: lack of impact on this stuff. That shouldn't be the

2693
02:28:18,320 --> 02:28:20,400
Speaker 2: final word on this. I'm certain there will be more studies,

2694
02:28:20,680 --> 02:28:22,840
Speaker 2: but that is a word on this, and they simply

2695
02:28:22,959 --> 02:28:23,640
Speaker 2: have no data.

2696
02:28:23,920 --> 02:28:25,160
Speaker 3: Well, on the other side of things.

2697
02:28:24,959 --> 02:28:27,640
Speaker 12: You know, there's another study as well. I mean, you know,

2698
02:28:27,760 --> 02:28:31,600
Speaker 12: there's a study out of Portland State University and it's interesting.

2699
02:28:31,640 --> 02:28:34,040
Speaker 12: It was a follow up study. The full report has

2700
02:28:34,080 --> 02:28:36,200
Speaker 12: not been released yet, but they did release some of

2701
02:28:36,280 --> 02:28:40,560
Speaker 12: their key findings and it was in the first year

2702
02:28:41,040 --> 02:28:46,000
Speaker 12: PSU met with officers and interviewed them about their perceptions

2703
02:28:46,040 --> 02:28:47,800
Speaker 12: of one ten and how it was going. As you

2704
02:28:47,879 --> 02:28:50,200
Speaker 12: might imagine, officers didn't think it was going well and

2705
02:28:50,280 --> 02:28:53,760
Speaker 12: they said, oh, well, violent crime has increased and property

2706
02:28:53,800 --> 02:28:57,000
Speaker 12: crime is increased in overdoses are increased in all because

2707
02:28:57,000 --> 02:28:59,560
Speaker 12: of one ten. And what this report found is that

2708
02:28:59,800 --> 02:29:02,480
Speaker 12: is not true. There was an uptick and property crime,

2709
02:29:02,560 --> 02:29:05,360
Speaker 12: but we cannot say that that has been a result

2710
02:29:05,440 --> 02:29:08,600
Speaker 12: of one ten for years. You need a lot of

2711
02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:11,320
Speaker 12: data in order to look at that. And so, you know,

2712
02:29:11,680 --> 02:29:13,920
Speaker 12: this idea, and I mean, the ultimate finding of that

2713
02:29:14,000 --> 02:29:17,000
Speaker 12: study was that it is too early to recriminalize. It

2714
02:29:17,360 --> 02:29:19,680
Speaker 12: based on the data, it is too early to recriminalize.

2715
02:29:19,720 --> 02:29:24,720
Speaker 12: And so but again, you know, I think that instead

2716
02:29:24,840 --> 02:29:27,960
Speaker 12: what we are relying on is people's fear and what

2717
02:29:28,120 --> 02:29:30,959
Speaker 12: people see in the street. And you know, I think

2718
02:29:31,000 --> 02:29:33,600
Speaker 12: it's also this idea. I mean, the reason we are

2719
02:29:33,640 --> 02:29:36,080
Speaker 12: having this discussion, in my opinion, is two things. One

2720
02:29:36,680 --> 02:29:39,880
Speaker 12: is public use, right, individuals using the street. It's in

2721
02:29:39,959 --> 02:29:42,600
Speaker 12: people's faces. Nobody really cares when someone is in the

2722
02:29:42,640 --> 02:29:44,960
Speaker 12: warmth of their own home using fentanyl. It's when they're

2723
02:29:44,959 --> 02:29:45,440
Speaker 12: on the street.

2724
02:29:45,879 --> 02:29:48,040
Speaker 2: Or I should note when someone's in the White House

2725
02:29:48,120 --> 02:29:50,279
Speaker 2: using fentanyl, because it just came out that the President

2726
02:29:50,400 --> 02:29:53,080
Speaker 2: and high staff were prescribed fentanyl and ketamine in the

2727
02:29:53,120 --> 02:29:54,520
Speaker 2: White House when Trump was in office.

2728
02:29:54,600 --> 02:29:58,680
Speaker 12: So yeah, absolutely, but no one really cares about that.

2729
02:29:58,760 --> 02:30:01,200
Speaker 12: It's when it's in your face that people care. And

2730
02:30:01,440 --> 02:30:05,320
Speaker 12: the other one is the perception that crime is. You

2731
02:30:05,400 --> 02:30:08,320
Speaker 12: know that again, a lot of crime is caused by

2732
02:30:08,400 --> 02:30:11,320
Speaker 12: drug use, right, there is an underlying association there. But

2733
02:30:11,640 --> 02:30:15,240
Speaker 12: the idea of criminalizing drugs because of that is the

2734
02:30:15,400 --> 02:30:19,520
Speaker 12: idea that you can somehow arrest somebody, compel them into

2735
02:30:19,600 --> 02:30:21,360
Speaker 12: treatment and therefore prevent crimes.

2736
02:30:21,640 --> 02:30:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2737
02:30:22,520 --> 02:30:24,840
Speaker 12: I mean that's like the pre cog the sci fi

2738
02:30:25,040 --> 02:30:27,800
Speaker 12: sort of things. It's it is a backward system.

2739
02:30:28,000 --> 02:30:30,360
Speaker 2: No, and we actually know what will stop the drug

2740
02:30:30,440 --> 02:30:33,600
Speaker 2: related crimes, which are mostly theft, right, And one of

2741
02:30:33,640 --> 02:30:35,240
Speaker 2: the things that will and they've seen this, I believe

2742
02:30:35,280 --> 02:30:38,320
Speaker 2: it's the Netherlands that if you're a heroin addict, the

2743
02:30:38,400 --> 02:30:40,680
Speaker 2: government will give you free heroin. You have to take

2744
02:30:40,760 --> 02:30:43,119
Speaker 2: it at a center like you go in, you sign

2745
02:30:43,160 --> 02:30:45,240
Speaker 2: a thing and you get your dose and you take

2746
02:30:45,280 --> 02:30:49,000
Speaker 2: it there. That saves them money based on doing nothing,

2747
02:30:49,040 --> 02:30:51,720
Speaker 2: because when they do nothing, people break into houses and cars,

2748
02:30:51,800 --> 02:30:55,480
Speaker 2: et cetera, and boats because it's the Netherlands in order

2749
02:30:55,600 --> 02:30:58,200
Speaker 2: to steal shits so that they can not get dope sick,

2750
02:30:58,400 --> 02:31:00,879
Speaker 2: and just giving the dope to them winds up costing

2751
02:31:00,920 --> 02:31:02,080
Speaker 2: a lot less per addict.

2752
02:31:02,320 --> 02:31:05,400
Speaker 12: Well, the other thing that gets people clean or that

2753
02:31:05,520 --> 02:31:08,920
Speaker 12: stops people from committing crimes is housing, is providing them

2754
02:31:08,920 --> 02:31:11,560
Speaker 12: a roof over their head. I mean, when people are

2755
02:31:12,520 --> 02:31:14,560
Speaker 12: even if they're not on the street, if they are

2756
02:31:14,640 --> 02:31:17,440
Speaker 12: housing and stable, they're trying to make a living and

2757
02:31:17,520 --> 02:31:19,600
Speaker 12: it is not easy to do so with whether it's

2758
02:31:19,640 --> 02:31:23,720
Speaker 12: a felony record or you're you know, your upbringing or

2759
02:31:24,120 --> 02:31:27,480
Speaker 12: whatever reason has held you back. If they have housing.

2760
02:31:27,959 --> 02:31:31,440
Speaker 12: I mean, there are numerous studies that show that when

2761
02:31:31,480 --> 02:31:35,320
Speaker 12: you put somebody in housing, their likelihood of using drugs drops,

2762
02:31:35,360 --> 02:31:39,320
Speaker 12: their likelihood of committing crimes drops. And yet we are

2763
02:31:39,440 --> 02:31:45,680
Speaker 12: focused on this recriminalization rather than trying to house these individuals.

2764
02:31:45,959 --> 02:31:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's you know, when you talk about this,

2765
02:31:48,600 --> 02:31:52,000
Speaker 2: when you talk about decriminalization in Oregon's context, there's a

2766
02:31:52,000 --> 02:31:55,800
Speaker 2: good reason for this. People talk about Portugal, Portugal, Spain

2767
02:31:55,920 --> 02:31:58,720
Speaker 2: also did this, both Portugal and Spain, and I believe

2768
02:31:58,760 --> 02:32:03,880
Speaker 2: Portugal's first decriminalized simple possession and use quite a while ago.

2769
02:32:03,920 --> 02:32:05,800
Speaker 2: It's been that way in Portugal for I think like

2770
02:32:05,920 --> 02:32:08,440
Speaker 2: twenty years. Like they have a significant amount of data

2771
02:32:08,520 --> 02:32:12,080
Speaker 2: on it right, and Oregonians, the people who were pushing

2772
02:32:12,160 --> 02:32:15,000
Speaker 2: for one ten, cited it specifically as like a reason

2773
02:32:15,040 --> 02:32:17,560
Speaker 2: why this was worthwhile. There was recently, I think last year,

2774
02:32:18,000 --> 02:32:20,560
Speaker 2: some state officials and whatnot went to Portugal to look

2775
02:32:20,600 --> 02:32:22,720
Speaker 2: into the system, and so as a result, you've seen

2776
02:32:22,800 --> 02:32:26,160
Speaker 2: like attacks on the Portuguese drug system, including there was

2777
02:32:26,200 --> 02:32:28,880
Speaker 2: a recent Washington Post article about how Portugal is starting

2778
02:32:28,920 --> 02:32:31,640
Speaker 2: to regret it, They're going to recriminalize maybe, And the

2779
02:32:31,680 --> 02:32:34,480
Speaker 2: reality of the situation is that there was has been

2780
02:32:34,520 --> 02:32:37,360
Speaker 2: a recent surge in illicit drug use in Portugal from

2781
02:32:37,480 --> 02:32:39,600
Speaker 2: seven point eight percent in two thousand and one to

2782
02:32:39,760 --> 02:32:42,800
Speaker 2: twelve point eight percent in twenty twenty two. That is

2783
02:32:42,920 --> 02:32:46,120
Speaker 2: an increase. It's still below the average in most of

2784
02:32:46,200 --> 02:32:49,320
Speaker 2: Western Europe. It's lower than France and Italy. I believe

2785
02:32:49,360 --> 02:32:51,920
Speaker 2: it's lower than the UK, It's lower than like most

2786
02:32:52,160 --> 02:32:55,160
Speaker 2: of Western Europe. And I just kind of pointing out

2787
02:32:55,200 --> 02:32:57,600
Speaker 2: the fact that Portugal is also dealing with an increase

2788
02:32:57,640 --> 02:33:00,440
Speaker 2: in drug use. Again, saying that that's because of the

2789
02:33:00,520 --> 02:33:04,360
Speaker 2: culture of decriminalization seems silly when there have been corresponding

2790
02:33:04,400 --> 02:33:07,879
Speaker 2: surges everywhere where it's illegal. But beyond that, it ignores

2791
02:33:07,959 --> 02:33:11,320
Speaker 2: the fact that there have been really significant benefits that

2792
02:33:11,480 --> 02:33:14,600
Speaker 2: we do know our benefits of decriminalization because of how

2793
02:33:14,720 --> 02:33:17,080
Speaker 2: long we've been looking at it. From two thousand to

2794
02:33:17,120 --> 02:33:19,959
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, prison populations in Portugal fell by

2795
02:33:19,959 --> 02:33:24,040
Speaker 2: almost seventeen percent. Overdose rates dropped because in part they

2796
02:33:24,120 --> 02:33:28,520
Speaker 2: funded rehabilitation, which Oregon still has not really done. There

2797
02:33:28,680 --> 02:33:31,440
Speaker 2: was no surge in use, and in fact less people

2798
02:33:31,760 --> 02:33:35,600
Speaker 2: seem to die when the system changed, right. What has

2799
02:33:35,720 --> 02:33:39,280
Speaker 2: increased is some drug de related debris. Particularly most of

2800
02:33:39,360 --> 02:33:41,240
Speaker 2: the surges have been in the last literally the last

2801
02:33:41,280 --> 02:33:43,560
Speaker 2: couple of years, which again makes me think it is

2802
02:33:43,640 --> 02:33:45,560
Speaker 2: tied to the global trends that have made a lot

2803
02:33:45,600 --> 02:33:48,600
Speaker 2: of people more miserable and living in a more difficult

2804
02:33:48,640 --> 02:33:52,119
Speaker 2: situation and at more risk of drug addiction. What happens

2805
02:33:52,160 --> 02:33:57,280
Speaker 2: in Portugal politically hard to say, but overall, decriminalization we

2806
02:33:57,360 --> 02:33:59,520
Speaker 2: have a lot of data for seems to have largely

2807
02:33:59,720 --> 02:34:00,560
Speaker 2: been success.

2808
02:34:01,400 --> 02:34:02,400
Speaker 3: And if that's kind of.

2809
02:34:02,400 --> 02:34:05,120
Speaker 2: What we were to see in Oregon with decriminalization, I

2810
02:34:05,160 --> 02:34:08,279
Speaker 2: would be happy, even if there's more mess on the streets,

2811
02:34:08,320 --> 02:34:10,440
Speaker 2: although I don't think that that's inevitable. And this gets

2812
02:34:10,520 --> 02:34:12,600
Speaker 2: us to what I think is kind of the most

2813
02:34:12,680 --> 02:34:15,880
Speaker 2: dangerous point that the opposition, the people who want to

2814
02:34:15,879 --> 02:34:18,720
Speaker 2: recriminalize make, And it's dangerous because it seems like they

2815
02:34:18,760 --> 02:34:22,000
Speaker 2: have a good point, which is people shouldn't be people

2816
02:34:22,000 --> 02:34:24,240
Speaker 2: with families, just regular people should not have to see

2817
02:34:24,320 --> 02:34:26,960
Speaker 2: folks using hard drugs on the street as they walk

2818
02:34:27,000 --> 02:34:30,320
Speaker 2: around town. And I agree it is not reasonable to

2819
02:34:30,440 --> 02:34:33,039
Speaker 2: expect people to walk with their kids to school past

2820
02:34:33,200 --> 02:34:36,880
Speaker 2: somebody shooting up heroin or smoking crack. It's fine, and

2821
02:34:38,120 --> 02:34:41,280
Speaker 2: you're not like a some sort of like nark or

2822
02:34:41,320 --> 02:34:43,160
Speaker 2: party pooper if you don't want your kids to see that.

2823
02:34:43,680 --> 02:34:46,880
Speaker 2: But that's already illegal, because it's like it's illegal to

2824
02:34:47,000 --> 02:34:49,920
Speaker 2: drink a beer on the street in Portland. The problem

2825
02:34:50,040 --> 02:34:52,520
Speaker 2: is not that the cops can't do anything about it,

2826
02:34:52,600 --> 02:34:55,840
Speaker 2: it's that, again they're choosing not to do anything about it.

2827
02:34:56,360 --> 02:34:59,160
Speaker 12: Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean, and again it is the

2828
02:34:59,280 --> 02:35:02,320
Speaker 12: issue of we have people living on the streets, right,

2829
02:35:02,360 --> 02:35:05,800
Speaker 12: I mean, it is I completely agree that people shouldn't

2830
02:35:05,840 --> 02:35:08,600
Speaker 12: have to walk past that, but maybe that is an

2831
02:35:08,720 --> 02:35:12,200
Speaker 12: opportunity to talk to their child about the need to

2832
02:35:12,400 --> 02:35:14,920
Speaker 12: make sure that people have a safe place to live.

2833
02:35:15,400 --> 02:35:18,960
Speaker 12: And also, I mean it's also you know, if we

2834
02:35:19,160 --> 02:35:22,800
Speaker 12: had safe use locations, you wouldn't see nearly as much

2835
02:35:22,840 --> 02:35:25,840
Speaker 12: of that. And frankly, the system would have a better

2836
02:35:26,040 --> 02:35:30,680
Speaker 12: argument for punishing public use if we had safe use

2837
02:35:30,720 --> 02:35:34,240
Speaker 12: areas because we have put so many people on the street. Yes,

2838
02:35:34,640 --> 02:35:37,760
Speaker 12: somebody who has no place to be and is desperate

2839
02:35:37,840 --> 02:35:40,080
Speaker 12: and it is addicted using it a place where you

2840
02:35:40,160 --> 02:35:43,360
Speaker 12: can see them is understandable. Somebody who has options for

2841
02:35:43,520 --> 02:35:45,160
Speaker 12: places to be and is choosing to do it in

2842
02:35:45,200 --> 02:35:47,600
Speaker 12: front of people, that's a bit of a different case.

2843
02:35:47,760 --> 02:35:51,480
Speaker 12: And again I also want to just really, because I've

2844
02:35:51,560 --> 02:35:55,160
Speaker 12: encountered this in arguments about one ten with people. It

2845
02:35:55,320 --> 02:35:57,360
Speaker 12: did not make it legal to do drugs in public.

2846
02:35:57,720 --> 02:36:01,640
Speaker 12: That remains illegal. It's illegal to drink beer in public. Absolutely, Yeah,

2847
02:36:01,920 --> 02:36:05,200
Speaker 12: public use is I mean, but again, these are sort

2848
02:36:05,200 --> 02:36:09,200
Speaker 12: of the narratives that are being perpetuated by and a

2849
02:36:09,280 --> 02:36:13,680
Speaker 12: lot of it is law enforcement. And honestly, my take

2850
02:36:13,760 --> 02:36:17,480
Speaker 12: on it is that law enforcement doesn't really care about

2851
02:36:17,560 --> 02:36:19,160
Speaker 12: recriminalizing possession.

2852
02:36:19,440 --> 02:36:19,800
Speaker 3: They don't.

2853
02:36:20,040 --> 02:36:23,680
Speaker 12: What they want is they want the ability to search people.

2854
02:36:24,240 --> 02:36:28,200
Speaker 12: What that gives them is it gives them the right

2855
02:36:28,360 --> 02:36:31,680
Speaker 12: to say, hey, I have problem cause to believe that

2856
02:36:31,840 --> 02:36:34,040
Speaker 12: you have drugs on you therefore I'm gonna search you,

2857
02:36:34,520 --> 02:36:37,920
Speaker 12: I'm gonna search your car, I'm going to search your house. Right,

2858
02:36:38,720 --> 02:36:41,840
Speaker 12: it gives them that ability, and they, you know, many

2859
02:36:41,920 --> 02:36:44,960
Speaker 12: of them, will be very forthright about that. And the

2860
02:36:45,240 --> 02:36:49,960
Speaker 12: biggest infringements on our personal privacy, on our Fourth Amendment rights,

2861
02:36:50,000 --> 02:36:54,520
Speaker 12: on our protected privacy interest has always been drugs. It

2862
02:36:54,640 --> 02:36:59,680
Speaker 12: has always been the criminalization of drugs has eroded our

2863
02:36:59,760 --> 02:37:03,800
Speaker 12: privacy interests. And and that is that's what's really at

2864
02:37:03,879 --> 02:37:06,640
Speaker 12: play here because I don't I don't think the officers

2865
02:37:07,360 --> 02:37:10,560
Speaker 12: I mean, and this is again not a monolith I'm saying,

2866
02:37:10,640 --> 02:37:15,360
Speaker 12: I don't think in general law enforcement really is that

2867
02:37:15,920 --> 02:37:22,240
Speaker 12: concerned with, you know, getting individuals off the street and

2868
02:37:22,400 --> 02:37:25,040
Speaker 12: into treatment. If that were the case, we would have

2869
02:37:25,120 --> 02:37:28,280
Speaker 12: seen far more of those e citations, you know, we

2870
02:37:28,360 --> 02:37:31,560
Speaker 12: would see the officers doing there. There is a statute

2871
02:37:31,600 --> 02:37:34,360
Speaker 12: that allows them to transport people to detox, right, we

2872
02:37:34,520 --> 02:37:37,480
Speaker 12: don't see that that often because really, what is that

2873
02:37:37,680 --> 02:37:41,120
Speaker 12: issue here is the ability to search people based on

2874
02:37:41,240 --> 02:37:43,160
Speaker 12: probable cause that they possess drugs.

2875
02:37:43,520 --> 02:37:46,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and we will we will talk about what

2876
02:37:46,600 --> 02:37:49,800
Speaker 2: people can do if they want to stop the recriminalization

2877
02:37:49,879 --> 02:37:50,720
Speaker 2: of drugs in Oregon.

2878
02:37:51,160 --> 02:38:06,039
Speaker 3: But first, here's some more ads. We're back, So grant.

2879
02:38:05,840 --> 02:38:07,960
Speaker 2: Kind of the question I am left with at the

2880
02:38:08,080 --> 02:38:11,280
Speaker 2: end of this here is what do we do to

2881
02:38:11,440 --> 02:38:12,560
Speaker 2: fight back against this?

2882
02:38:12,879 --> 02:38:15,200
Speaker 3: What is actually what is go? What are the options

2883
02:38:15,240 --> 02:38:15,600
Speaker 3: people have?

2884
02:38:15,720 --> 02:38:17,760
Speaker 2: Obviously the thing that first occurs to me that is

2885
02:38:17,840 --> 02:38:21,080
Speaker 2: most successible is make a fuss to your elected leaders

2886
02:38:21,160 --> 02:38:23,000
Speaker 2: so you know that this is something you'll think about

2887
02:38:23,160 --> 02:38:24,240
Speaker 2: come vote in season.

2888
02:38:24,680 --> 02:38:26,680
Speaker 3: But first off, how would people do that?

2889
02:38:26,959 --> 02:38:29,800
Speaker 12: I guess yeah, I mean, you know, figure out who

2890
02:38:29,840 --> 02:38:33,760
Speaker 12: your legislator is, you know, write to them, call them,

2891
02:38:34,040 --> 02:38:37,520
Speaker 12: let them know that you know you want to see,

2892
02:38:38,360 --> 02:38:40,960
Speaker 12: you know, realistic fixes to this. You want to see

2893
02:38:41,080 --> 02:38:45,800
Speaker 12: investment in public health, in outreach through pure navigators and

2894
02:38:45,879 --> 02:38:49,440
Speaker 12: case managers that you don't want to see us return

2895
02:38:49,600 --> 02:38:52,080
Speaker 12: to the same war on drugs that has failed.

2896
02:38:52,560 --> 02:38:54,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's hard, I will say if you're looking

2897
02:38:54,760 --> 02:38:57,400
Speaker 2: to do research outside of like a lot of a

2898
02:38:57,480 --> 02:38:59,600
Speaker 2: lot of local news, this is a hard time for

2899
02:38:59,680 --> 02:39:02,080
Speaker 2: local news. Well, good local reporting gets done in a

2900
02:39:02,160 --> 02:39:05,640
Speaker 2: number of places, including Oregon. Also, a lot of smaller

2901
02:39:05,760 --> 02:39:09,320
Speaker 2: local news agencies are very much in the pocket of

2902
02:39:09,400 --> 02:39:10,920
Speaker 2: the people who helped to fund them, which is some

2903
02:39:11,000 --> 02:39:13,160
Speaker 2: of the people funding the attempt to repeal. So if

2904
02:39:13,520 --> 02:39:16,199
Speaker 2: one of the better articles that has been written recently

2905
02:39:16,920 --> 02:39:19,640
Speaker 2: was in the New Yorker, it's great. Yeah, there's a

2906
02:39:19,840 --> 02:39:21,840
Speaker 2: I'm pulling it up right now. There's a great New

2907
02:39:21,920 --> 02:39:25,440
Speaker 2: Yorker piece, a New Drug War in Oregon, that was

2908
02:39:25,480 --> 02:39:30,160
Speaker 2: published just this month, probably the best major outlet piece

2909
02:39:30,360 --> 02:39:33,760
Speaker 2: I've seen on it, And yeah, it's It talks a

2910
02:39:33,800 --> 02:39:36,959
Speaker 2: lot about the STAB and Wagon, which is a kind

2911
02:39:37,000 --> 02:39:40,519
Speaker 2: of independent although they've now should at some point theoretically

2912
02:39:40,560 --> 02:39:42,720
Speaker 2: be getting a significant amount of funding, but like they

2913
02:39:42,800 --> 02:39:47,120
Speaker 2: provide drug users not just with naloxone or narcan, but

2914
02:39:47,280 --> 02:39:50,520
Speaker 2: with safe use materials like syringes and stuff that are clean.

2915
02:39:51,360 --> 02:39:53,120
Speaker 2: This is down in the south of Oregon, in a

2916
02:39:53,160 --> 02:39:56,080
Speaker 2: place called Medford, which has both one of Oregon's worst

2917
02:39:56,120 --> 02:39:58,560
Speaker 2: drug problems and also is much more conservative area. So

2918
02:39:58,600 --> 02:40:02,520
Speaker 2: obviously these people are very controversial, and I will say,

2919
02:40:02,720 --> 02:40:04,600
Speaker 2: you know, one of the things this article does well

2920
02:40:04,760 --> 02:40:07,400
Speaker 2: is they get at, even within people who are supportive

2921
02:40:07,400 --> 02:40:11,080
Speaker 2: of one ten, the conflict between kind of traditional addiction

2922
02:40:11,200 --> 02:40:15,480
Speaker 2: recovery resources and organizations and some of these often these

2923
02:40:15,560 --> 02:40:18,560
Speaker 2: new organizations are either started by or run by people

2924
02:40:18,600 --> 02:40:22,600
Speaker 2: who have or do currently deal with addiction, and I

2925
02:40:22,720 --> 02:40:25,800
Speaker 2: think covering that conflict is valuable. There's some stuff that

2926
02:40:25,879 --> 02:40:28,480
Speaker 2: frustrates me about it, and this is I think there's

2927
02:40:28,520 --> 02:40:31,160
Speaker 2: a lot of negativity towards stab and Wagon and its

2928
02:40:31,200 --> 02:40:33,520
Speaker 2: founder that's unfair. I also think some of the things

2929
02:40:33,560 --> 02:40:36,600
Speaker 2: that she has said about traditional addiction recovery resources are

2930
02:40:36,640 --> 02:40:39,440
Speaker 2: very unfair from her point of view. And I think

2931
02:40:39,760 --> 02:40:43,080
Speaker 2: when I look at the problem, the only comprehensive solution

2932
02:40:43,480 --> 02:40:46,920
Speaker 2: is multiple options for different kinds of people. Because I

2933
02:40:47,080 --> 02:40:48,800
Speaker 2: know a lot of people who have dealt with addiction

2934
02:40:48,920 --> 02:40:51,240
Speaker 2: and recovered and no two of them did it the

2935
02:40:51,280 --> 02:40:51,760
Speaker 2: same way.

2936
02:40:52,160 --> 02:40:54,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, no, absolutely, And I mean I think that you know,

2937
02:40:54,800 --> 02:40:57,879
Speaker 12: both of those are necessary, right harm. What I always

2938
02:40:57,879 --> 02:41:01,480
Speaker 12: say is that the beauty of armyedduction is that not

2939
02:41:01,720 --> 02:41:04,640
Speaker 12: only does it ensure that somebody survives long enough to

2940
02:41:04,720 --> 02:41:10,000
Speaker 12: make it to recovery, but it also builds a relationship

2941
02:41:10,080 --> 02:41:12,360
Speaker 12: with that person. It builds a relationship of trust so

2942
02:41:12,440 --> 02:41:15,560
Speaker 12: that you can have a conversation about the need for recovery.

2943
02:41:15,920 --> 02:41:18,800
Speaker 12: You know, as a public defender, I don't get the

2944
02:41:18,879 --> 02:41:22,280
Speaker 12: benefit of the prosecutor or the court to or probation

2945
02:41:22,560 --> 02:41:25,360
Speaker 12: to wield power and to make my client do what

2946
02:41:26,080 --> 02:41:29,080
Speaker 12: they should do. Because I'm holding power over them. I

2947
02:41:29,520 --> 02:41:31,920
Speaker 12: have to build trust, right, I have to have a

2948
02:41:32,000 --> 02:41:34,400
Speaker 12: relationship of trust with them, and I have to find

2949
02:41:34,440 --> 02:41:38,720
Speaker 12: out what motivates that individual and and try to utilize

2950
02:41:38,800 --> 02:41:42,680
Speaker 12: that to encourage positive steps. Right, And that's true of

2951
02:41:42,720 --> 02:41:45,000
Speaker 12: our our case managers and social workers that work with us.

2952
02:41:45,560 --> 02:41:48,280
Speaker 12: And that's that's what the system doesn't have, right. The

2953
02:41:48,360 --> 02:41:52,400
Speaker 12: system is just trying to use the threat of incarceration

2954
02:41:53,120 --> 02:41:57,520
Speaker 12: in order to get individuals who are not ready for

2955
02:41:57,680 --> 02:42:01,080
Speaker 12: recovery to engage in recovery, and that that's detrimental. I mean,

2956
02:42:01,160 --> 02:42:05,199
Speaker 12: we need both harm reduction and we need traditional treatment.

2957
02:42:05,240 --> 02:42:08,360
Speaker 12: We need culturally competent treatment. You know, there needs to

2958
02:42:08,400 --> 02:42:10,840
Speaker 12: be wrap around services. And that's one of my concerns

2959
02:42:10,879 --> 02:42:14,800
Speaker 12: here is that you know, we know that the criminal

2960
02:42:14,879 --> 02:42:19,280
Speaker 12: legal system has worked. One ten past, we had a

2961
02:42:19,959 --> 02:42:24,080
Speaker 12: drug court that dealt with low level possession and its

2962
02:42:24,160 --> 02:42:28,880
Speaker 12: graduation rate was around seventeen percent, so seventeen percent to people,

2963
02:42:28,920 --> 02:42:32,080
Speaker 12: and graduation meant ninety days of sobriety. And that was

2964
02:42:32,160 --> 02:42:35,920
Speaker 12: seventeen percent of people. That other eighty three percent if

2965
02:42:35,920 --> 02:42:38,200
Speaker 12: they fail out a program. Again, the only tool the

2966
02:42:38,240 --> 02:42:40,840
Speaker 12: system has is jail, and so all they did was

2967
02:42:40,959 --> 02:42:44,279
Speaker 12: did not hook them up with services and instead eventually

2968
02:42:44,440 --> 02:42:48,440
Speaker 12: punish them for not being ready for treatment, and that

2969
02:42:48,680 --> 02:42:50,720
Speaker 12: is not how we get people into recovery.

2970
02:42:51,160 --> 02:42:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's a really good point when

2971
02:42:54,000 --> 02:42:56,840
Speaker 2: I when I talk about both how people can help

2972
02:42:56,959 --> 02:42:59,119
Speaker 2: if a loved one is starting to do with drug

2973
02:42:59,160 --> 02:43:02,400
Speaker 2: addiction and when someone if someone you love is getting

2974
02:43:02,400 --> 02:43:04,960
Speaker 2: into a cult or getting pulled into conspiracy theories, it's

2975
02:43:05,000 --> 02:43:06,800
Speaker 2: actually the same advice. I had a friend come to

2976
02:43:06,879 --> 02:43:09,680
Speaker 2: me recently because I loved one of theirs was starting

2977
02:43:09,760 --> 02:43:15,480
Speaker 2: to kind of talk about some really concerning conspiracy theory stuff, right,

2978
02:43:16,240 --> 02:43:18,320
Speaker 2: and they were like, what do I say against this?

2979
02:43:18,360 --> 02:43:21,040
Speaker 2: How do I argue against it? And my answer was like, well,

2980
02:43:21,080 --> 02:43:24,120
Speaker 2: you don't really You make it clear, like, hey, I

2981
02:43:24,160 --> 02:43:27,120
Speaker 2: don't really believe this, I don't find this compelling, but

2982
02:43:27,320 --> 02:43:29,520
Speaker 2: like you know, I love you and I'm always here

2983
02:43:29,560 --> 02:43:31,160
Speaker 2: to listen if you want to talk about this kind

2984
02:43:31,160 --> 02:43:33,200
Speaker 2: of stuff or you want to talk about whatever. And

2985
02:43:33,879 --> 02:43:36,040
Speaker 2: that is the same if someone's starting to get pulled

2986
02:43:36,080 --> 02:43:38,560
Speaker 2: into a cult or if they're dealing with drugs, because,

2987
02:43:38,800 --> 02:43:42,080
Speaker 2: as you noted, if they have a pathway out, and

2988
02:43:42,160 --> 02:43:43,680
Speaker 2: they're not going to have to It's not this kind

2989
02:43:43,680 --> 02:43:45,120
Speaker 2: of thing where you've been yelling at them and may

2990
02:43:45,200 --> 02:43:46,760
Speaker 2: and then they they have to come to you with

2991
02:43:46,840 --> 02:43:49,199
Speaker 2: their head tail between their legs and like I was wrong,

2992
02:43:49,320 --> 02:43:52,360
Speaker 2: I fucked up. That's a barrier. If like, well, this

2993
02:43:52,680 --> 02:43:55,320
Speaker 2: this person cares about me and is always going to

2994
02:43:55,360 --> 02:43:58,640
Speaker 2: be like willing to you know, talk with me like

2995
02:43:58,879 --> 02:44:01,680
Speaker 2: no matter what, well, then that's less of a barrier.

2996
02:44:01,800 --> 02:44:02,200
Speaker 3: Then you're not.

2997
02:44:02,440 --> 02:44:04,680
Speaker 2: You haven't built a wall that they have to get through.

2998
02:44:04,800 --> 02:44:07,000
Speaker 2: They can just come to you when they're like I

2999
02:44:07,160 --> 02:44:10,480
Speaker 2: need help exactly. I mean, it's based in relationships, and

3000
02:44:10,840 --> 02:44:12,960
Speaker 2: I mean that's that's one of the issues, right, is

3001
02:44:13,000 --> 02:44:18,119
Speaker 2: that too many people, not just Importland but everywhere, see

3002
02:44:18,520 --> 02:44:22,040
Speaker 2: individuals on the street and assume the worst and see

3003
02:44:22,080 --> 02:44:23,800
Speaker 2: them as the other. They don't see them as part

3004
02:44:23,840 --> 02:44:27,440
Speaker 2: of the community, and so they're more than fine with

3005
02:44:27,720 --> 02:44:30,880
Speaker 2: a system locking them up because of their addiction. And

3006
02:44:31,560 --> 02:44:34,600
Speaker 2: you know, we all need to recognize that, you know

3007
02:44:35,320 --> 02:44:38,920
Speaker 2: it that falling into that lifestyle. You know, whether whether

3008
02:44:39,040 --> 02:44:42,240
Speaker 2: it is because of you know, where you were raised,

3009
02:44:42,360 --> 02:44:45,560
Speaker 2: how you were raised, you know, whether you got addicted

3010
02:44:45,600 --> 02:44:48,600
Speaker 2: to pills because your doctor prescribed them. There's a lot

3011
02:44:48,680 --> 02:44:50,760
Speaker 2: of reasons, whether you had childhood trauma, there's a lot

3012
02:44:50,800 --> 02:44:54,880
Speaker 2: of reasons why people get an addiction. And you know,

3013
02:44:55,080 --> 02:44:59,959
Speaker 2: to simply assume that somebody, because they're addicted to drugs

3014
02:45:00,360 --> 02:45:04,960
Speaker 2: is a criminal, a bad person, you know, it is

3015
02:45:05,040 --> 02:45:08,680
Speaker 2: making them the other. And it's so much easier to

3016
02:45:08,760 --> 02:45:10,879
Speaker 2: be punitive when you're just seeing.

3017
02:45:10,680 --> 02:45:11,640
Speaker 12: That person as the other.

3018
02:45:11,920 --> 02:45:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I did want to note if people are

3019
02:45:14,200 --> 02:45:17,600
Speaker 2: looking for resources online both about one ten and how

3020
02:45:17,640 --> 02:45:20,119
Speaker 2: they can help in the fight to stop it from

3021
02:45:20,160 --> 02:45:24,240
Speaker 2: getting repealed, you can go to h JR, the Health

3022
02:45:24,440 --> 02:45:28,760
Speaker 2: Justice Recovery Alliance. They have you can sign up to

3023
02:45:29,000 --> 02:45:32,960
Speaker 2: get information from them. They have community resources, they have

3024
02:45:33,120 --> 02:45:35,400
Speaker 2: like updates on what's going on. I think you can

3025
02:45:35,480 --> 02:45:38,960
Speaker 2: find through them a way to like automatically kind of

3026
02:45:39,040 --> 02:45:41,240
Speaker 2: send a form message.

3027
02:45:40,879 --> 02:45:42,000
Speaker 3: To your elected leaders.

3028
02:45:42,480 --> 02:45:45,959
Speaker 2: So just google Health Justice Recovery Alliance Oregon or Health

3029
02:45:46,120 --> 02:45:49,760
Speaker 2: Justice Recovery Alliance one ten and that will take you there.

3030
02:45:49,879 --> 02:45:52,680
Speaker 2: They've got a lot of stuff collected there, both resources

3031
02:45:52,720 --> 02:45:56,440
Speaker 2: if you're having arguments with people about this and information

3032
02:45:56,560 --> 02:45:59,000
Speaker 2: on how you can help at least try to do something.

3033
02:45:59,160 --> 02:46:01,200
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I will say all so the ACLU has

3034
02:46:01,280 --> 02:46:03,720
Speaker 12: been very active in this as well, and you know,

3035
02:46:03,800 --> 02:46:06,640
Speaker 12: they have an action plan on their website that you know,

3036
02:46:06,800 --> 02:46:08,920
Speaker 12: tells you some of the things that you can do

3037
02:46:09,200 --> 02:46:11,720
Speaker 12: in this and and you know, like I said, I mean,

3038
02:46:11,760 --> 02:46:16,000
Speaker 12: I I think obviously contacting your legislators where we haven't

3039
02:46:16,000 --> 02:46:19,560
Speaker 12: even started the legislation or the legislative session yet, and

3040
02:46:19,720 --> 02:46:22,720
Speaker 12: so there is still room to change this and to

3041
02:46:22,879 --> 02:46:27,160
Speaker 12: at least make it less bad, which you know it's

3042
02:46:27,360 --> 02:46:30,120
Speaker 12: these days sometimes it feels like less bad is the

3043
02:46:30,520 --> 02:46:32,040
Speaker 12: is the goal that we need to strive for.

3044
02:46:32,360 --> 02:46:33,200
Speaker 3: It's harm reduction.

3045
02:46:33,360 --> 02:46:36,119
Speaker 2: Again, That's how I tend to look at the legislative

3046
02:46:36,160 --> 02:46:39,240
Speaker 2: side of things. Well, everybody that's going to do it

3047
02:46:39,400 --> 02:46:41,879
Speaker 2: for us here at it could happen here, Grant, thank

3048
02:46:41,920 --> 02:46:43,600
Speaker 2: you so much. Should you have anything you wanted to

3049
02:46:43,760 --> 02:46:46,240
Speaker 2: plug your direct listeners towards before we roll out here?

3050
02:46:46,920 --> 02:46:50,200
Speaker 12: I mean, I think again, it's just you know, go

3051
02:46:50,360 --> 02:46:55,240
Speaker 12: to the ACLU website, go to hha's website, get involved.

3052
02:46:55,600 --> 02:46:59,200
Speaker 12: But more than just that, no matter what happens during

3053
02:46:59,240 --> 02:47:03,200
Speaker 12: this legislative session, you know, remember that all of these

3054
02:47:03,240 --> 02:47:07,840
Speaker 12: folks on the street are people, and they need assistance,

3055
02:47:08,080 --> 02:47:12,080
Speaker 12: and you know, and they need help and continue, or

3056
02:47:12,280 --> 02:47:18,440
Speaker 12: consider you know, contributing to a recovery organization, or volunteering

3057
02:47:18,600 --> 02:47:21,320
Speaker 12: to go out into the community. You know, if you

3058
02:47:21,480 --> 02:47:25,480
Speaker 12: have lived experience with addiction, consider becoming a peer. It

3059
02:47:25,920 --> 02:47:29,560
Speaker 12: is so impactful to have individuals who have struggled with

3060
02:47:29,600 --> 02:47:33,439
Speaker 12: substance use go out in the community and engage individuals

3061
02:47:33,480 --> 02:47:36,120
Speaker 12: who are currently struggling with it. And that is the

3062
02:47:36,240 --> 02:47:38,360
Speaker 12: best trust building that it's the best way to get

3063
02:47:38,400 --> 02:47:41,199
Speaker 12: people into recovery, not through handcuffs in jails.

3064
02:47:41,640 --> 02:47:44,840
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Grant. I couldn't agree more. All Right, everybody,

3065
02:47:45,400 --> 02:47:48,200
Speaker 2: that's it for us today. We'll be back tomorrow with

3066
02:47:48,640 --> 02:47:50,120
Speaker 2: more of it happening here.

3067
02:48:03,520 --> 02:48:06,320
Speaker 13: Welcome to it could happen here on Garrison Davis.

3068
02:48:07,040 --> 02:48:07,200
Speaker 10: Now.

3069
02:48:07,400 --> 02:48:10,000
Speaker 13: Last week I spent a few days in Las Vegas

3070
02:48:10,200 --> 02:48:14,160
Speaker 13: for the Consumer Electronics Showcase. Most of the time of

3071
02:48:14,200 --> 02:48:16,640
Speaker 13: the convention, I was just walking around the show floor

3072
02:48:17,040 --> 02:48:22,240
Speaker 13: looking at various new types of surveillance equipment, AI products,

3073
02:48:22,320 --> 02:48:26,400
Speaker 13: and various other bullshit that was being pedled to many

3074
02:48:26,480 --> 02:48:29,840
Speaker 13: industry attendees of CEES. But I was also able to

3075
02:48:29,879 --> 02:48:32,240
Speaker 13: go to a few panels. Now, panels are really interesting

3076
02:48:32,280 --> 02:48:34,560
Speaker 13: because you get to hear people who are working inside

3077
02:48:34,560 --> 02:48:37,520
Speaker 13: industries talk about stuff that they don't usually really publicly

3078
02:48:37,560 --> 02:48:40,120
Speaker 13: talk about very much. And on the first day of

3079
02:48:40,160 --> 02:48:43,080
Speaker 13: the convention, I went to a panel about drone technology.

3080
02:48:44,080 --> 02:48:46,879
Speaker 13: Half of the panel was about how Walmart is launching

3081
02:48:47,000 --> 02:48:51,560
Speaker 13: new delivery drones in Dallas, Texas. The other half was

3082
02:48:51,640 --> 02:48:54,920
Speaker 13: about police drones. And that's what we're going to be

3083
02:48:55,000 --> 02:48:58,279
Speaker 13: talking about here today, how the police are using drones,

3084
02:48:58,640 --> 02:49:01,760
Speaker 13: why they're using drones, and how you can probably expect

3085
02:49:01,879 --> 02:49:03,920
Speaker 13: to be seeing a lot more drones up in the

3086
02:49:03,959 --> 02:49:08,200
Speaker 13: sky piloted by either an AI or a police officer.

3087
02:49:09,200 --> 02:49:14,160
Speaker 13: So let's get started. Cheula Vista is the southernmost kind

3088
02:49:14,160 --> 02:49:17,520
Speaker 13: of medium sized city in California, with the population of

3089
02:49:17,560 --> 02:49:21,040
Speaker 13: two hundred and seventy eight thousand people. Cheulavista has a

3090
02:49:21,080 --> 02:49:24,000
Speaker 13: police force of two hundred and eighty nine sworn officers,

3091
02:49:24,320 --> 02:49:27,920
Speaker 13: as well as one hundred and twenty civilian employees. On

3092
02:49:28,040 --> 02:49:31,360
Speaker 13: top of their nearly three hundred officers, they operate a

3093
02:49:31,520 --> 02:49:34,360
Speaker 13: drone fleet ten hours a day, seven days a week,

3094
02:49:34,720 --> 02:49:38,840
Speaker 13: launching high deff camera mounted drones from four locations throughout

3095
02:49:38,920 --> 02:49:42,039
Speaker 13: their small city. I'm going to quote from an article

3096
02:49:42,120 --> 02:49:45,640
Speaker 13: from the MIT Technology Review, which did a deep dive

3097
02:49:45,840 --> 02:49:49,200
Speaker 13: onto Cheulavista's police drones back in February of twenty twenty three.

3098
02:49:49,760 --> 02:49:50,080
Speaker 4: Quote.

3099
02:49:50,680 --> 02:49:53,720
Speaker 13: Cheulavista uses these drones to extend the power of its

3100
02:49:53,800 --> 02:49:57,000
Speaker 13: workforce in a number of ways. For example, if only

3101
02:49:57,080 --> 02:49:59,800
Speaker 13: one officer is available when two calls come in, one

3102
02:50:00,080 --> 02:50:03,360
Speaker 13: or an armed suspect and another for shoplifting, an officer

3103
02:50:03,440 --> 02:50:07,720
Speaker 13: will respond to the first one. But now cvpd's Public

3104
02:50:07,800 --> 02:50:12,520
Speaker 13: Information Officer, Sergeant Anthony Molina, says that dispatchers can send

3105
02:50:12,560 --> 02:50:17,560
Speaker 13: a drone to surreptitiously trail the suspected shoplifter quote, and

3106
02:50:17,800 --> 02:50:20,040
Speaker 13: this really gets at the heart of how these drones

3107
02:50:20,040 --> 02:50:23,280
Speaker 13: are going to get used. They exist to funnel more

3108
02:50:23,440 --> 02:50:26,760
Speaker 13: people into the criminal justice system. Instead of having to

3109
02:50:26,879 --> 02:50:29,640
Speaker 13: choose between two calls, one of which actually could relate

3110
02:50:29,720 --> 02:50:32,360
Speaker 13: to saving someone's life, the other just a petty crime,

3111
02:50:32,920 --> 02:50:35,560
Speaker 13: now the police can easily follow someone doing a petty

3112
02:50:35,600 --> 02:50:38,320
Speaker 13: crime while responding to other calls and eventually catch up.

3113
02:50:38,800 --> 02:50:41,199
Speaker 13: It's a way to just expand the amount of people

3114
02:50:41,240 --> 02:50:45,119
Speaker 13: that can be arrested and thrown into jail. Nowadays, drones

3115
02:50:45,160 --> 02:50:46,279
Speaker 13: are pretty common.

3116
02:50:46,080 --> 02:50:46,960
Speaker 4: Tools for police.

3117
02:50:47,280 --> 02:50:51,360
Speaker 13: Over one thy five hundred departments currently use drones, usually

3118
02:50:51,480 --> 02:50:56,000
Speaker 13: for special occasions though, like search and rescue, crime scene documentation,

3119
02:50:56,600 --> 02:51:01,039
Speaker 13: protest surveillance, and sometimes tracking suspects, but at the moment,

3120
02:51:01,440 --> 02:51:05,080
Speaker 13: only about a dozen police departments regularly dispatched drones in

3121
02:51:05,160 --> 02:51:08,240
Speaker 13: response to nine to one one calls, the first of

3122
02:51:08,320 --> 02:51:12,000
Speaker 13: which was Chew La Vista PD, who launched their quote

3123
02:51:12,360 --> 02:51:17,240
Speaker 13: drone as first Responder program back in twenty eighteen with

3124
02:51:17,440 --> 02:51:20,920
Speaker 13: the goal of having an unmanned aerial system or drone

3125
02:51:21,360 --> 02:51:25,760
Speaker 13: be proactively deployed before an officer is on scene. Now

3126
02:51:25,920 --> 02:51:29,280
Speaker 13: we'll hear from Chief Roxanna Kennedy of the Cheu La

3127
02:51:29,360 --> 02:51:34,279
Speaker 13: Vista Police Department talking on the drone technology panel at CES.

3128
02:51:35,120 --> 02:51:38,800
Speaker 10: We are seven miles from the Mexico border, and we

3129
02:51:38,879 --> 02:51:41,280
Speaker 10: have the second largest city in San Diego County. So

3130
02:51:41,320 --> 02:51:45,120
Speaker 10: we have about two hundred and ninety officers and we

3131
02:51:45,240 --> 02:51:48,160
Speaker 10: serve a community of about three hundred thousand. Because of

3132
02:51:48,200 --> 02:51:50,320
Speaker 10: the close proximity to the door, we have a lot

3133
02:51:50,320 --> 02:51:51,879
Speaker 10: of people that have traveled back and forth.

3134
02:51:52,640 --> 02:51:57,480
Speaker 7: We have a drone program that I'm awfully proud of.

3135
02:51:57,879 --> 02:52:01,279
Speaker 10: And we are responding proactive lead to calls for service

3136
02:52:01,400 --> 02:52:02,199
Speaker 10: in our community.

3137
02:52:02,720 --> 02:52:04,520
Speaker 7: And so we have drone station.

3138
02:52:04,400 --> 02:52:07,960
Speaker 10: From four different locations throughout our city. We have pilots

3139
02:52:07,959 --> 02:52:10,160
Speaker 10: in command that are on the rooftop, and then we

3140
02:52:10,320 --> 02:52:14,480
Speaker 10: have a operation center where we have sworn officers that

3141
02:52:14,720 --> 02:52:16,640
Speaker 10: are part one to seven pilots.

3142
02:52:16,320 --> 02:52:19,480
Speaker 7: That fly the drones. So we are responding now to

3143
02:52:19,800 --> 02:52:22,160
Speaker 7: calls for service on average, and.

3144
02:52:22,680 --> 02:52:25,720
Speaker 10: An officer on scene, a drone pendant on scene that's

3145
02:52:25,720 --> 02:52:29,680
Speaker 10: sharing information with our officers lights streaming that information on

3146
02:52:29,920 --> 02:52:32,360
Speaker 10: our cell phones or in our computers that we're seeing

3147
02:52:32,760 --> 02:52:34,359
Speaker 10: information about the call within.

3148
02:52:34,320 --> 02:52:36,040
Speaker 7: Ninety seconds on average.

3149
02:52:36,160 --> 02:52:38,920
Speaker 10: And so what it's doing for us in sure Vista

3150
02:52:39,040 --> 02:52:43,840
Speaker 10: and for our community is we are providing information rapidly,

3151
02:52:44,040 --> 02:52:46,960
Speaker 10: real time information to officers so that they can make

3152
02:52:47,080 --> 02:52:50,520
Speaker 10: better decisions so that everyone goes home safely. We say,

3153
02:52:50,560 --> 02:52:53,880
Speaker 10: the community safer, the officers are safer, and the subjects

3154
02:52:53,920 --> 02:52:55,240
Speaker 10: that we encounter are safer.

3155
02:52:55,320 --> 02:52:56,920
Speaker 7: So we're offly proud of what we're doing.

3156
02:52:57,959 --> 02:53:00,600
Speaker 13: The way police are able to deploy drone used to

3157
02:53:00,680 --> 02:53:03,600
Speaker 13: be a lot more limited. The use of drones is

3158
02:53:03,680 --> 02:53:08,039
Speaker 13: regulated by the FFA, the Federal Aviation Administration. In most cases,

3159
02:53:08,160 --> 02:53:12,400
Speaker 13: the FFA requires that both hobbyists and police departments only

3160
02:53:12,520 --> 02:53:16,040
Speaker 13: fly drones within the operator's own line of sight. But

3161
02:53:16,160 --> 02:53:19,520
Speaker 13: starting back in twenty nineteen, agencies and vendors could start

3162
02:53:19,560 --> 02:53:23,279
Speaker 13: applying for a beyond visual line of sight or BEVLOSS

3163
02:53:23,320 --> 02:53:27,320
Speaker 13: waiver from the FFA to fly drones remotely, allowing for

3164
02:53:27,560 --> 02:53:32,240
Speaker 13: much longer flights in restricted airspace. Chula Vista Pedi was

3165
02:53:32,320 --> 02:53:35,840
Speaker 13: the first department to get a BEVLOST waiver. The MIT

3166
02:53:36,040 --> 02:53:39,200
Speaker 13: Tech Review estimated last year that roughly two hundred and

3167
02:53:39,280 --> 02:53:42,560
Speaker 13: twenty five more departments now have one as well.

3168
02:53:43,000 --> 02:53:43,760
Speaker 7: Another thing that I.

3169
02:53:43,879 --> 02:53:47,600
Speaker 10: Always talk about because I think it's critical, is the

3170
02:53:48,480 --> 02:53:52,960
Speaker 10: concept of why they're using drones, what the benefit is

3171
02:53:53,040 --> 02:53:55,640
Speaker 10: to the community with the use of our drones. And

3172
02:53:56,000 --> 02:53:59,360
Speaker 10: I truly believe that when my officers can pick up

3173
02:53:59,400 --> 02:54:02,040
Speaker 10: their cellf up before they even respond to the call,

3174
02:54:02,600 --> 02:54:05,199
Speaker 10: and they can look and see the scene.

3175
02:54:05,600 --> 02:54:07,600
Speaker 7: What's happening where the individual is.

3176
02:54:07,720 --> 02:54:09,720
Speaker 10: If the person's facing in the middle of the park,

3177
02:54:10,040 --> 02:54:12,400
Speaker 10: there are no children around, and there are noo there's

3178
02:54:12,480 --> 02:54:16,000
Speaker 10: nobody that's within the reach of this individual harmy, you

3179
02:54:16,120 --> 02:54:18,320
Speaker 10: might not have to rush into that scene so quickly

3180
02:54:18,879 --> 02:54:23,080
Speaker 10: officers can d escalate, make better decisions. And I mean

3181
02:54:23,240 --> 02:54:26,760
Speaker 10: this is just a game changer for law enforcement and

3182
02:54:26,959 --> 02:54:30,720
Speaker 10: right now, you know, we were the first agent agency

3183
02:54:30,800 --> 02:54:33,800
Speaker 10: to be involved in the integrated Pilot program with the FAA.

3184
02:54:34,440 --> 02:54:37,000
Speaker 10: We're very proud of that that they trusted us enough

3185
02:54:37,160 --> 02:54:40,920
Speaker 10: for us to be the organization that brought forward all

3186
02:54:41,040 --> 02:54:44,960
Speaker 10: these these ideas that are now being utilized in law enforcements. Now.

3187
02:54:45,000 --> 02:54:47,680
Speaker 13: I've watched a lot of videos of police talking about

3188
02:54:47,760 --> 02:54:51,680
Speaker 13: why they're using drones, of drone training companies talking about

3189
02:54:51,720 --> 02:54:54,760
Speaker 13: why police drones are so important. In one video on

3190
02:54:54,800 --> 02:54:58,000
Speaker 13: their website, this guy from Skyfire Consulting was talking about

3191
02:54:58,000 --> 02:55:00,840
Speaker 13: how police may not have had to kill Ta Mirror

3192
02:55:00,959 --> 02:55:04,560
Speaker 13: Rice if they simply had a drone watching beforehand so

3193
02:55:04,640 --> 02:55:07,600
Speaker 13: they could see that it was a toy gun, which

3194
02:55:07,680 --> 02:55:09,959
Speaker 13: is a ridiculous thing to say, because in the nine

3195
02:55:09,959 --> 02:55:12,520
Speaker 13: one one call that jump started this entire police interaction,

3196
02:55:12,840 --> 02:55:15,680
Speaker 13: it was expressed that the caller thought the gun was

3197
02:55:15,760 --> 02:55:19,960
Speaker 13: probably a toy. And this notion that is simply if

3198
02:55:20,040 --> 02:55:23,120
Speaker 13: police have more ability to surveil, they'll be able to

3199
02:55:23,560 --> 02:55:27,720
Speaker 13: respond safer and apply less deadly force, I think is

3200
02:55:27,800 --> 02:55:33,599
Speaker 13: a pretty suspect premise. Now, the effectiveness of drone technology

3201
02:55:33,680 --> 02:55:38,560
Speaker 13: and law enforcement is challenging to verify and quantify. The

3202
02:55:38,720 --> 02:55:42,040
Speaker 13: MIT Tech Review cannot find any third party studies showing

3203
02:55:42,120 --> 02:55:46,920
Speaker 13: that drones reduce crime, even after interviewing CVPD officers as

3204
02:55:46,959 --> 02:55:50,680
Speaker 13: well as drone vendors and researchers quote, nor could anyone

3205
02:55:50,720 --> 02:55:54,280
Speaker 13: provide statistics on how many additional arrests or convictions came

3206
02:55:54,320 --> 02:55:57,840
Speaker 13: from using drone technology. I was able to find some

3207
02:55:58,000 --> 02:56:02,880
Speaker 13: data on cvpd's website talking about how many drone initiated

3208
02:56:02,920 --> 02:56:07,920
Speaker 13: interactions resulted in arrests, but quantifying additional arrests seems to

3209
02:56:08,040 --> 02:56:09,000
Speaker 13: be a little challenging.

3210
02:56:09,520 --> 02:56:09,680
Speaker 10: Now.

3211
02:56:09,840 --> 02:56:13,800
Speaker 13: If you look at Cheulavista PD's own drone responses stats,

3212
02:56:14,360 --> 02:56:17,880
Speaker 13: the vast majority of deployments I estimate around seventy percent

3213
02:56:18,520 --> 02:56:20,959
Speaker 13: are for what the director of investigations for the privacy

3214
02:56:21,080 --> 02:56:24,720
Speaker 13: rights group the Electronic Frontier Foundation refers to as quote

3215
02:56:25,000 --> 02:56:28,440
Speaker 13: crimes of poverty unquote, which he believes will be the

3216
02:56:28,480 --> 02:56:31,840
Speaker 13: target of most drone policing as opposed to violent crime.

3217
02:56:32,760 --> 02:56:36,800
Speaker 13: Nearly thirty percent of Chula Vista's drone deployments are for

3218
02:56:37,040 --> 02:56:43,160
Speaker 13: what's categorized as disturbances, Almost fifteen percent are for psychological evaluations,

3219
02:56:43,480 --> 02:56:47,200
Speaker 13: ten percent are for quote, check the area and information.

3220
02:56:47,800 --> 02:56:50,880
Speaker 13: Over seven percent are for welfare checks, six point five

3221
02:56:50,920 --> 02:56:55,160
Speaker 13: percent is for quote unknown problem, and over six percent

3222
02:56:55,400 --> 02:57:00,680
Speaker 13: is for suspicious person and another six percent for traffic accidents. Now,

3223
02:57:01,280 --> 02:57:04,520
Speaker 13: some drone of deployments do results in patrol units not

3224
02:57:04,720 --> 02:57:08,640
Speaker 13: having to be dispatched, but CVPD also says that drones

3225
02:57:08,680 --> 02:57:12,520
Speaker 13: have assisted in thousands of arrests. And I'm really not

3226
02:57:12,680 --> 02:57:16,040
Speaker 13: sure if having a drone following someone around is the

3227
02:57:16,120 --> 02:57:18,760
Speaker 13: best thing for a fifty one to fifty psych evaluation.

3228
02:57:19,440 --> 02:57:21,520
Speaker 13: The presidence of a police officer doesn't always make the

3229
02:57:21,600 --> 02:57:26,160
Speaker 13: situations better either, but I don't see having a drone

3230
02:57:26,560 --> 02:57:30,080
Speaker 13: be a really calming presence if you think someone needs

3231
02:57:30,160 --> 02:57:45,400
Speaker 13: mental help. Funding a whole fleet of heavy duty surveillance

3232
02:57:45,480 --> 02:57:49,800
Speaker 13: drones and paying dedicated operators costs money. Now it's unclear

3233
02:57:49,800 --> 02:57:53,720
Speaker 13: to me how many drones to LEVISTAPD currently has, and

3234
02:57:53,920 --> 02:57:57,480
Speaker 13: on their website they list ten different drone models currently

3235
02:57:57,600 --> 02:58:00,840
Speaker 13: being in their fleet, most of them really expensive DGI

3236
02:58:00,959 --> 02:58:05,640
Speaker 13: drones like the DGI Matrix, the DGI Inspire, the DGA Phantom,

3237
02:58:06,040 --> 02:58:09,280
Speaker 13: the dj Maverick, as well as drones from a few

3238
02:58:09,320 --> 02:58:14,720
Speaker 13: other random companies. But nevertheless, Chief Kennedy is very grateful

3239
02:58:15,000 --> 02:58:18,000
Speaker 13: for their local Police Foundation for heading up the funding

3240
02:58:18,280 --> 02:58:23,320
Speaker 13: for their DFR drone first Responder program. Let's hear from her.

3241
02:58:23,920 --> 02:58:25,440
Speaker 7: I don't know if anyone here is in.

3242
02:58:25,520 --> 02:58:29,080
Speaker 10: Law enforcement, but many agencies use drunes and there are

3243
02:58:29,120 --> 02:58:31,160
Speaker 10: all different types of drones that are available.

3244
02:58:31,480 --> 02:58:34,199
Speaker 7: I call them reactive drums.

3245
02:58:34,000 --> 02:58:36,440
Speaker 10: Or ones that are like the tactical drones that you

3246
02:58:36,480 --> 02:58:38,960
Speaker 10: can use to go in on a hostage situation or

3247
02:58:39,000 --> 02:58:41,160
Speaker 10: a missing person to check in the.

3248
02:58:42,800 --> 02:58:45,960
Speaker 7: Canyon areas, or you know, interior drones.

3249
02:58:46,080 --> 02:58:49,119
Speaker 10: We have drunes that grow underneath bands, go inside addicts,

3250
02:58:49,120 --> 02:58:53,199
Speaker 10: all types of different drones, and many organizations have drones

3251
02:58:53,320 --> 02:58:56,120
Speaker 10: like that, but a DFR drone is very unique and

3252
02:58:56,200 --> 02:58:59,720
Speaker 10: different because these drones are flying as you can imagine

3253
02:59:00,080 --> 02:59:02,560
Speaker 10: ten thousand missions. It puts a lot of wear and

3254
02:59:02,640 --> 02:59:05,680
Speaker 10: tear on them. But that is one of the biggest

3255
02:59:05,760 --> 02:59:10,120
Speaker 10: challenges beyond that of funding. So we don't have huge

3256
02:59:10,160 --> 02:59:15,080
Speaker 10: budgets that are abouted for drone programs, and so we've

3257
02:59:15,120 --> 02:59:17,600
Speaker 10: had to be very, very creative at our police department,

3258
02:59:17,800 --> 02:59:20,160
Speaker 10: and we were very blessed to have a police foundation

3259
02:59:20,760 --> 02:59:24,800
Speaker 10: that has taken on the responsibility to help us really

3260
02:59:25,320 --> 02:59:29,160
Speaker 10: start our drone program and continue going forward. So funding

3261
02:59:29,280 --> 02:59:32,160
Speaker 10: is always going to be a challenge and dependent upon the.

3262
02:59:32,280 --> 02:59:33,400
Speaker 7: Drone that you use.

3263
02:59:33,480 --> 02:59:36,120
Speaker 10: There are some drones that you can't get any as.

3264
02:59:36,400 --> 02:59:39,320
Speaker 10: You can't use for assets seizure funding, nor can you

3265
02:59:39,360 --> 02:59:42,720
Speaker 10: get grants for because sometimes when it comes to foreign

3266
02:59:42,760 --> 02:59:45,880
Speaker 10: may drones there are many challenges as well. So you

3267
02:59:46,000 --> 02:59:48,160
Speaker 10: have to think of that and then we deal with legislation.

3268
02:59:48,400 --> 02:59:50,560
Speaker 10: Right now, that's the new challenge staff we all have.

3269
02:59:51,600 --> 02:59:55,200
Speaker 10: We have to bite some valves. I'm like I said,

3270
02:59:55,200 --> 02:59:57,520
Speaker 10: I'm agnostic. I want to use what's the best drum

3271
02:59:57,680 --> 03:00:01,880
Speaker 10: out there and protect the inform and we do that

3272
03:00:02,040 --> 03:00:06,080
Speaker 10: with encrypted software programs that are on private servers. But

3273
03:00:06,280 --> 03:00:09,119
Speaker 10: you'll see that there's a lot of discussion about drones

3274
03:00:09,280 --> 03:00:10,480
Speaker 10: and what drones we.

3275
03:00:10,480 --> 03:00:11,680
Speaker 7: Should be using right now.

3276
03:00:12,480 --> 03:00:15,760
Speaker 13: We'll get back to the chief's offhanded mention of legal

3277
03:00:15,840 --> 03:00:19,640
Speaker 13: battles in a bit here, But Chula Vista's budgetary situation

3278
03:00:20,320 --> 03:00:23,000
Speaker 13: may not be as dire as the chief makes it

3279
03:00:23,040 --> 03:00:26,440
Speaker 13: out to be. On top of their current fifty five

3280
03:00:26,560 --> 03:00:30,279
Speaker 13: million dollar operating budget. Back in twenty twenty, the Loprenza

3281
03:00:30,400 --> 03:00:34,000
Speaker 13: newspaper revealed that departments in San Diego County had secretly

3282
03:00:34,080 --> 03:00:37,400
Speaker 13: been getting hundreds of millions of dollars in high tech

3283
03:00:37,480 --> 03:00:42,680
Speaker 13: police equipment, including armored vehicles, facial recognition and phone breaking software,

3284
03:00:43,040 --> 03:00:47,880
Speaker 13: license plate readers, drones, ria gear, among other miscellaneous technology

3285
03:00:48,280 --> 03:00:51,360
Speaker 13: as a part of a DHS grant program due to

3286
03:00:51,400 --> 03:00:55,680
Speaker 13: their close proximity to the US Mexico border. Chula Vista

3287
03:00:55,920 --> 03:00:59,080
Speaker 13: was one such department, and as of twenty twenty, so

3288
03:00:59,360 --> 03:01:02,760
Speaker 13: four years ago, they had already received over one million

3289
03:01:02,800 --> 03:01:05,960
Speaker 13: dollars in grant funds from this DHS program, titled the

3290
03:01:06,120 --> 03:01:12,480
Speaker 13: quote Urban Area Security Initiative. Considering Chief Kennedy's budgetary concerns,

3291
03:01:13,120 --> 03:01:16,640
Speaker 13: drones actually have a lot of upsides financially, as they

3292
03:01:16,640 --> 03:01:20,520
Speaker 13: are often a lot cheaper than alternative surveillance methods, as

3293
03:01:20,560 --> 03:01:23,520
Speaker 13: well as being relatively easy to deploy remotely, either with

3294
03:01:23,560 --> 03:01:25,640
Speaker 13: a joystick or just by clicking a point on a

3295
03:01:25,720 --> 03:01:30,160
Speaker 13: map from a comfy office building. Issues around this ease

3296
03:01:30,320 --> 03:01:33,040
Speaker 13: of use was pointed out by Dave Moss, the director

3297
03:01:33,080 --> 03:01:37,480
Speaker 13: of investigations for the privacy rights group the Electronic Frontier Foundation,

3298
03:01:38,000 --> 03:01:41,120
Speaker 13: who was quoted in the MIT article saying, quote, up

3299
03:01:41,200 --> 03:01:43,720
Speaker 13: until the last like five to ten years, there was

3300
03:01:43,800 --> 03:01:47,440
Speaker 13: this unspoken check and balance on law enforcement power, money

3301
03:01:48,000 --> 03:01:50,720
Speaker 13: You cannot have a police officer standing on every corner

3302
03:01:50,800 --> 03:01:53,640
Speaker 13: of every street. You can't have a helicopter flying twenty

3303
03:01:53,680 --> 03:01:56,520
Speaker 13: four seven because of fuel and insurance is really expensive.

3304
03:01:57,160 --> 03:02:00,320
Speaker 13: But with all these new technologies, we don't have that

3305
03:02:00,440 --> 03:02:03,000
Speaker 13: check and balance anymore. That's just going to result in

3306
03:02:03,120 --> 03:02:05,920
Speaker 13: more people being pulled through the criminal justice system.

3307
03:02:07,160 --> 03:02:09,800
Speaker 10: My officers constantly are on the air now is UAS

3308
03:02:09,879 --> 03:02:13,320
Speaker 10: one available? Is UAS one available? Because it's getting them

3309
03:02:13,440 --> 03:02:16,200
Speaker 10: more information. Think about the fact that you can look

3310
03:02:16,240 --> 03:02:18,280
Speaker 10: at your cell phone. I could be anywhere in the

3311
03:02:18,320 --> 03:02:20,680
Speaker 10: world and I can look at kit lets me know

3312
03:02:20,879 --> 03:02:23,280
Speaker 10: whenever there's a drone fly, and I can walk, I

3313
03:02:23,400 --> 03:02:28,960
Speaker 10: can have visual awareness, aial overlay of what's happening in

3314
03:02:29,080 --> 03:02:30,320
Speaker 10: my community.

3315
03:02:30,320 --> 03:02:31,320
Speaker 7: No matter where I am.

3316
03:02:32,280 --> 03:02:38,480
Speaker 13: Advancements in technology are leading to further normalization of police surveillance.

3317
03:02:39,520 --> 03:02:42,520
Speaker 13: Ten years ago, would people react to news of a

3318
03:02:42,640 --> 03:02:46,240
Speaker 13: twenty four hour police drone program the same way they

3319
03:02:46,320 --> 03:02:49,760
Speaker 13: would now? What was once the threat of Big Brother

3320
03:02:50,360 --> 03:02:54,520
Speaker 13: has since become a very sought after, unfetishized nanny state.

3321
03:02:55,600 --> 03:02:58,560
Speaker 13: In the v for Veneta graphic novel, anarchist writer Alan

3322
03:02:58,640 --> 03:03:03,200
Speaker 13: Moore imagined a fascist Britain characterized by surveillance cameras around

3323
03:03:03,240 --> 03:03:06,520
Speaker 13: every corner, and now cities around the country are setting

3324
03:03:06,600 --> 03:03:10,000
Speaker 13: up their own street mounted cameras linked to private security

3325
03:03:10,080 --> 03:03:13,120
Speaker 13: cameras and ring doorbell cameras to create a network of

3326
03:03:13,200 --> 03:03:17,039
Speaker 13: life coverage around a whole city which is instantly accessible

3327
03:03:17,120 --> 03:03:22,640
Speaker 13: to police. The more widespread consumer adoption of new technologies

3328
03:03:22,840 --> 03:03:26,480
Speaker 13: like small camera mounted drones and doorbell cameras, the more

3329
03:03:26,520 --> 03:03:29,680
Speaker 13: acceptable it seems for police to add such technology to

3330
03:03:29,760 --> 03:03:34,760
Speaker 13: their arsenal of surveillance tools. It almost becomes expected to

3331
03:03:34,920 --> 03:03:39,200
Speaker 13: LAVISTIPEDI has routinely declined to answer why their drones are

3332
03:03:39,400 --> 03:03:42,600
Speaker 13: always recording, both to and from the scene, and the

3333
03:03:42,640 --> 03:03:45,480
Speaker 13: department has put in a lot of effort into managing

3334
03:03:45,560 --> 03:03:48,279
Speaker 13: the backlash against their expanding drone program.

3335
03:03:49,040 --> 03:03:49,960
Speaker 7: And I'll tell you one thing.

3336
03:03:50,080 --> 03:03:52,640
Speaker 10: Even some of the after this, they were very concerned

3337
03:03:52,680 --> 03:03:54,960
Speaker 10: about drones in the sense of privacy.

3338
03:03:55,520 --> 03:03:57,080
Speaker 7: What are you doing with these drones?

3339
03:03:57,160 --> 03:03:59,920
Speaker 10: As you're responding, you're trying to gather data and information

3340
03:04:00,080 --> 03:04:03,680
Speaker 10: and de spy on us, right, And we have had

3341
03:04:03,760 --> 03:04:05,880
Speaker 10: to go to a lot of detail and explaining that

3342
03:04:05,920 --> 03:04:06,320
Speaker 10: as our.

3343
03:04:06,280 --> 03:04:10,120
Speaker 7: Drone lifts off, it is immediately it is recording, because

3344
03:04:10,160 --> 03:04:13,920
Speaker 7: that's the information gatherer for us. As that drone responds.

3345
03:04:14,400 --> 03:04:17,240
Speaker 10: The camera is already going almost three miles down the

3346
03:04:17,320 --> 03:04:20,920
Speaker 10: roads where the scene is and giving us vital information

3347
03:04:21,200 --> 03:04:24,720
Speaker 10: as the officers are responding. But one of the criticism was,

3348
03:04:24,800 --> 03:04:27,240
Speaker 10: go on the way back, is your drone just going

3349
03:04:27,280 --> 03:04:30,400
Speaker 10: in my backyard? What if we're spoking marijuana in our backyard?

3350
03:04:30,600 --> 03:04:32,680
Speaker 10: And I said, you're in California, it doesn't really matter

3351
03:04:32,680 --> 03:04:33,119
Speaker 10: about way.

3352
03:04:33,520 --> 03:04:34,480
Speaker 3: Let that way go right.

3353
03:04:35,760 --> 03:04:39,400
Speaker 7: But we said, okay, we gave you your concern, and

3354
03:04:39,480 --> 03:04:41,080
Speaker 7: so what we did was we worked with the.

3355
03:04:42,920 --> 03:04:46,920
Speaker 10: Software company that we were with and they created an

3356
03:04:46,959 --> 03:04:51,640
Speaker 10: automatic so that as a drone returns, it automatically tilts

3357
03:04:51,720 --> 03:04:55,000
Speaker 10: to the horizon, so we're not recording anything. If another

3358
03:04:55,120 --> 03:04:58,040
Speaker 10: call came out, we can immediately we'll go back in

3359
03:04:58,120 --> 03:05:00,400
Speaker 10: it or flight map it for us to share that

3360
03:05:00,520 --> 03:05:04,520
Speaker 10: information later on. But the goal is to listen to

3361
03:05:04,640 --> 03:05:05,720
Speaker 10: your community as well.

3362
03:05:06,240 --> 03:05:09,040
Speaker 13: Chief Kennedy's claim here is difficult to back up because

3363
03:05:09,480 --> 03:05:12,440
Speaker 13: CVPD have refused to show the public any of the

3364
03:05:12,520 --> 03:05:16,240
Speaker 13: drone footage they routinely collect. But if we take the

3365
03:05:16,360 --> 03:05:19,520
Speaker 13: Chief at her word here anyway, she admits that the

3366
03:05:19,640 --> 03:05:22,440
Speaker 13: drone goes back to recording at street level as soon

3367
03:05:22,480 --> 03:05:24,840
Speaker 13: as there's another nine one one call, as they record

3368
03:05:24,920 --> 03:05:27,880
Speaker 13: everything on the way to a scene. And the way

3369
03:05:27,959 --> 03:05:32,240
Speaker 13: she phrases this whole tilt feature is quite misleading because

3370
03:05:32,320 --> 03:05:35,960
Speaker 13: the camera never actually stops recording. She just claims that

3371
03:05:36,080 --> 03:05:39,280
Speaker 13: it tilts slightly upwards in between nine one one calls,

3372
03:05:40,080 --> 03:05:42,959
Speaker 13: but it's still capturing footage up to three miles away

3373
03:05:43,360 --> 03:05:47,920
Speaker 13: the entire time it's in the air. Police in Cheulavista

3374
03:05:48,000 --> 03:05:51,440
Speaker 13: have flown over eighteen thousand missions with their drowns. That's

3375
03:05:51,480 --> 03:05:55,400
Speaker 13: a lot of footage. When talking about the privacy concerns

3376
03:05:55,520 --> 03:05:59,520
Speaker 13: had by some residents of Chewulavista, Chief Kennedy really emphasized

3377
03:05:59,600 --> 03:06:02,720
Speaker 13: how much her in the department really care about listening

3378
03:06:02,800 --> 03:06:07,279
Speaker 13: to community feedback and how data transparency is so important

3379
03:06:07,320 --> 03:06:08,240
Speaker 13: to CVPD.

3380
03:06:08,920 --> 03:06:15,119
Speaker 10: Community engagement is essential, especially in law enforcement, because there

3381
03:06:15,360 --> 03:06:17,720
Speaker 10: is there are so many challenges when it comes to

3382
03:06:18,000 --> 03:06:21,800
Speaker 10: misinformation that's out there, and whenever you're a part of

3383
03:06:21,879 --> 03:06:24,000
Speaker 10: what's deemed as a government, everyone thinks that you have

3384
03:06:24,120 --> 03:06:27,800
Speaker 10: some ulterior motive when you're involved with any type of technology,

3385
03:06:27,920 --> 03:06:31,400
Speaker 10: and so we have worked really hard to build very

3386
03:06:31,440 --> 03:06:35,040
Speaker 10: strong relationships with every aspect of our community. So it

3387
03:06:35,200 --> 03:06:38,280
Speaker 10: was about in twenty fifteen when we started talking about

3388
03:06:38,400 --> 03:06:41,600
Speaker 10: the concept and the possibility of drones. And I laughed

3389
03:06:41,640 --> 03:06:43,960
Speaker 10: with Chancel, said George Jensen, because that's my story that

3390
03:06:44,000 --> 03:06:45,080
Speaker 10: I used to and I love it.

3391
03:06:45,320 --> 03:06:47,320
Speaker 7: Because I made fun of my guys.

3392
03:06:47,200 --> 03:06:49,480
Speaker 10: When they said that we want to fly drunes. I said, oh,

3393
03:06:49,640 --> 03:06:51,680
Speaker 10: come on, now, what are we bet George jetson flying

3394
03:06:51,720 --> 03:06:54,280
Speaker 10: around the cars? And then I saw today they talked

3395
03:06:54,280 --> 03:06:55,080
Speaker 10: about a blind car.

3396
03:06:55,360 --> 03:06:59,720
Speaker 7: So it happens. It happens, all right. And so with

3397
03:06:59,840 --> 03:07:00,640
Speaker 7: the community, we.

3398
03:07:00,680 --> 03:07:04,240
Speaker 10: Started having these conversations. We created a working group, we

3399
03:07:04,320 --> 03:07:07,960
Speaker 10: started doing community forums. We started asking the community about

3400
03:07:08,080 --> 03:07:09,760
Speaker 10: what would you think if we were able to do

3401
03:07:09,879 --> 03:07:12,800
Speaker 10: something like this. We even went to some of the

3402
03:07:13,520 --> 03:07:17,440
Speaker 10: organizations that may not always be so supportive of these

3403
03:07:17,480 --> 03:07:20,320
Speaker 10: types of groups. We worked with the ASL you and

3404
03:07:20,640 --> 03:07:23,400
Speaker 10: ask for their input on our policy. So before we

3405
03:07:23,560 --> 03:07:27,480
Speaker 10: ever flew a drone, we call it the krawl.

3406
03:07:27,600 --> 03:07:29,080
Speaker 7: Lolock run phase.

3407
03:07:29,200 --> 03:07:31,720
Speaker 10: We're still at the very end of crawl, we're not

3408
03:07:31,879 --> 03:07:34,879
Speaker 10: into lock yet and we've been doing it again also

3409
03:07:35,000 --> 03:07:39,160
Speaker 10: for five years. So you have to make certain that

3410
03:07:39,280 --> 03:07:43,080
Speaker 10: you're transparent, and we provided all types of information that

3411
03:07:43,200 --> 03:07:43,840
Speaker 10: are available.

3412
03:07:43,879 --> 03:07:46,960
Speaker 7: If you go to all you have put in is

3413
03:07:47,000 --> 03:07:47,920
Speaker 7: Jovis to place.

3414
03:07:47,800 --> 03:07:50,760
Speaker 10: Drums and it'll come up with us and you can

3415
03:07:50,840 --> 03:07:52,360
Speaker 10: look at all the things that we do, all the

3416
03:07:52,440 --> 03:07:55,560
Speaker 10: information that we share, the flight maps that we share.

3417
03:07:56,879 --> 03:08:00,800
Speaker 7: I mean, it's just super important to have those forums.

3418
03:08:00,879 --> 03:08:01,400
Speaker 7: Every year.

3419
03:08:01,680 --> 03:08:03,960
Speaker 10: We do a community forum twice a year where we

3420
03:08:04,080 --> 03:08:05,640
Speaker 10: ask for input from our community.

3421
03:08:06,440 --> 03:08:09,800
Speaker 13: Later on in the panel, Chief Kennedy said that CVPD

3422
03:08:09,959 --> 03:08:14,160
Speaker 13: is quote unquote extremely transparent about their flight data and

3423
03:08:14,400 --> 03:08:18,200
Speaker 13: quote unquote have nothing to hide relating to their use

3424
03:08:18,360 --> 03:08:23,480
Speaker 13: of surveillance drones, which is a curious claim considering the

3425
03:08:23,560 --> 03:08:28,480
Speaker 13: fact that CVPD has historically kept all drone footage hidden

3426
03:08:28,560 --> 03:08:31,720
Speaker 13: from the public and has fought in court to do so.

3427
03:08:32,840 --> 03:08:37,240
Speaker 13: Despite the chief's emphasis on the police's commitment to transparency

3428
03:08:37,680 --> 03:08:41,360
Speaker 13: and the importance of listening to community feedback, even going

3429
03:08:41,440 --> 03:08:45,200
Speaker 13: as far as to consult the ACLU when developing their

3430
03:08:45,320 --> 03:08:49,360
Speaker 13: drone program, for years now, the Cheu Livista Police Department

3431
03:08:49,440 --> 03:08:52,840
Speaker 13: has denied all FOYA and public records requests for any

3432
03:08:52,959 --> 03:08:57,720
Speaker 13: drone footage in response. Are Turno Castnares, a Teulvista resident

3433
03:08:57,920 --> 03:09:02,240
Speaker 13: and owner of the local bilingual newspaper Loprenza filed a

3434
03:09:02,360 --> 03:09:07,119
Speaker 13: lawsuit against the city. CVPD argued that all drone footage

3435
03:09:07,160 --> 03:09:10,480
Speaker 13: should be categorically exempt from the public records requests on

3436
03:09:10,560 --> 03:09:12,720
Speaker 13: the basis that the footage could be used for a

3437
03:09:12,879 --> 03:09:18,000
Speaker 13: future investigation. Just last December, only a few weeks before Cees,

3438
03:09:18,480 --> 03:09:21,800
Speaker 13: the California Fourth District Court of Appeals ruled that this

3439
03:09:22,000 --> 03:09:26,760
Speaker 13: blanket exemption is invalid and that not all drone first

3440
03:09:26,800 --> 03:09:30,240
Speaker 13: responder footage could be classified as part of appending or

3441
03:09:30,360 --> 03:09:34,080
Speaker 13: ongoing criminal investigation, pointing to examples such as nine oh

3442
03:09:34,160 --> 03:09:37,560
Speaker 13: one calls about a roaming mountain lion or a stranded motorist.

3443
03:09:38,640 --> 03:09:42,160
Speaker 13: And police were not happy about this ruling. I'll talk

3444
03:09:42,200 --> 03:09:44,880
Speaker 13: about their reaction at the end of the episode, but

3445
03:09:45,520 --> 03:09:49,840
Speaker 13: controlling the narrative about the drone first responder program has

3446
03:09:49,959 --> 03:09:54,280
Speaker 13: been of the utmost importance to Trulavista Police, as the

3447
03:09:54,400 --> 03:09:56,959
Speaker 13: chief herself expressed at the panel.

3448
03:09:57,160 --> 03:09:59,720
Speaker 7: And we're real good about telling our story.

3449
03:10:00,320 --> 03:10:02,600
Speaker 10: If you don't tell your own story in law enforcement,

3450
03:10:02,680 --> 03:10:04,400
Speaker 10: other people will tell it for it and it might

3451
03:10:04,440 --> 03:10:07,480
Speaker 10: not be the right story. So we've gotten really good

3452
03:10:07,640 --> 03:10:14,000
Speaker 10: at sharing on our social media and through YouTube channels

3453
03:10:14,000 --> 03:10:14,840
Speaker 10: and everything.

3454
03:10:14,879 --> 03:10:16,480
Speaker 7: Success stories of what we're doing.

3455
03:10:17,000 --> 03:10:21,119
Speaker 13: That is quite the claim there, to paraphrase the Electronic

3456
03:10:21,200 --> 03:10:25,840
Speaker 13: Frontier Foundation. Without public access to their drone footage, it

3457
03:10:25,920 --> 03:10:29,040
Speaker 13: makes it very difficult to assess how much privacy you

3458
03:10:29,320 --> 03:10:32,560
Speaker 13: have in Cheula Vista and whether police are even following

3459
03:10:32,640 --> 03:10:36,320
Speaker 13: their own rules about when and whether they record sensitive

3460
03:10:36,360 --> 03:10:42,039
Speaker 13: places like people's homes, backyards, or public protests. And that's

3461
03:10:42,120 --> 03:10:44,800
Speaker 13: why this recent ruling and the legal precedent it sets

3462
03:10:45,280 --> 03:10:48,600
Speaker 13: is a huge win for actual transparency and marks the

3463
03:10:48,680 --> 03:10:51,640
Speaker 13: first step towards the public finally getting a look at

3464
03:10:51,720 --> 03:11:07,640
Speaker 13: how these drones are being used in Scheula Vista. With

3465
03:11:07,879 --> 03:11:11,480
Speaker 13: drone first responder programs is spreading to police departments across

3466
03:11:11,520 --> 03:11:15,040
Speaker 13: the country modeled after the one in Chula Vesta. Combined

3467
03:11:15,160 --> 03:11:19,480
Speaker 13: with the increasing presence of stationary street level cameras, the

3468
03:11:19,560 --> 03:11:22,320
Speaker 13: ability for police to be watching everywhere without the need

3469
03:11:22,400 --> 03:11:25,920
Speaker 13: for on the ground officers creates what the EFF refers

3470
03:11:26,000 --> 03:11:29,560
Speaker 13: to as quote, a fundamental change in strategy, with police

3471
03:11:29,600 --> 03:11:33,320
Speaker 13: responding to a much much larger number of situations with drones,

3472
03:11:33,879 --> 03:11:39,160
Speaker 13: resulting in pervasive, if not persistent, surveillance of communities unquote.

3473
03:11:40,120 --> 03:11:44,119
Speaker 13: Speaking of persistent surveillance, Near the end of the panel,

3474
03:11:44,440 --> 03:11:47,200
Speaker 13: the Chief announced that to Lavesta, PD is planning to

3475
03:11:47,320 --> 03:11:51,359
Speaker 13: expand their ten hour a day drone first responder program

3476
03:11:51,800 --> 03:11:55,680
Speaker 13: to a constant twenty four hour a day drone surveillance program.

3477
03:11:56,320 --> 03:11:58,800
Speaker 13: More than doubling the department's capacity to have eyes in

3478
03:11:58,840 --> 03:12:01,520
Speaker 13: the sky would mean a lot more work hours for

3479
03:12:01,680 --> 03:12:04,240
Speaker 13: drone operators, as well as a large increase in the

3480
03:12:04,280 --> 03:12:08,280
Speaker 13: amount of video files being stored indefinitely, but Chief Kennedy

3481
03:12:08,360 --> 03:12:12,200
Speaker 13: claimed that they're looking into offsetting costs by replacing some

3482
03:12:12,320 --> 03:12:15,800
Speaker 13: of the drone piloting team with AI assisted piloting and

3483
03:12:15,959 --> 03:12:17,200
Speaker 13: autonomous devices.

3484
03:12:17,879 --> 03:12:22,760
Speaker 9: You've clearly been the leader with thrones's first responder technology.

3485
03:12:23,360 --> 03:12:25,920
Speaker 9: Looking forward, what is the future hole for the department?

3486
03:12:26,400 --> 03:12:28,360
Speaker 9: I assume you're spending a lot of time telling others

3487
03:12:28,400 --> 03:12:33,160
Speaker 9: about the program edition using drones, but beyond that, what's up.

3488
03:12:34,640 --> 03:12:37,480
Speaker 10: Well, my hope is that we'll be moving towards twenty

3489
03:12:37,560 --> 03:12:41,880
Speaker 10: four hour operations. Right now, we're from sunrise to sunset.

3490
03:12:42,080 --> 03:12:44,320
Speaker 10: We go untill close to ten o'clock at night, which

3491
03:12:44,360 --> 03:12:47,160
Speaker 10: goes a little bit beyond that. And then one of

3492
03:12:47,240 --> 03:12:50,240
Speaker 10: the challenges, and I know you're only getting a little

3493
03:12:50,280 --> 03:12:53,160
Speaker 10: piece of the information about exactly how we're doing this.

3494
03:12:53,280 --> 03:12:56,160
Speaker 10: But from the four different locations that we fly on

3495
03:12:56,280 --> 03:12:58,359
Speaker 10: each of the rooftops, we have what's called the piloting

3496
03:12:58,440 --> 03:13:02,160
Speaker 10: command and thatlot in command is contracted through a company

3497
03:13:03,040 --> 03:13:07,000
Speaker 10: and we and they just have visual awareness of the

3498
03:13:07,080 --> 03:13:10,920
Speaker 10: sky and they working in coordination with our drone pilot

3499
03:13:11,000 --> 03:13:14,320
Speaker 10: that's inside our operations center. But that's a huge expense

3500
03:13:14,520 --> 03:13:17,800
Speaker 10: for us to pay lead for each site right now

3501
03:13:17,959 --> 03:13:19,840
Speaker 10: with the operations that we have to paint abut one

3502
03:13:19,920 --> 03:13:22,720
Speaker 10: hundred thousand dollars per year, So that's four hundred thousand

3503
03:13:22,760 --> 03:13:27,080
Speaker 10: dollars for four locations beyond all the other processes here.

3504
03:13:27,320 --> 03:13:29,680
Speaker 10: And so if you can get expensive, my hobe is

3505
03:13:29,720 --> 03:13:31,680
Speaker 10: that and we keep hearing about it. We've seen some

3506
03:13:32,400 --> 03:13:35,120
Speaker 10: of the testing and we've been testing it as well

3507
03:13:35,280 --> 03:13:38,800
Speaker 10: in our area or what's called drone in the box

3508
03:13:39,120 --> 03:13:41,320
Speaker 10: or there's some of the systems that are out there

3509
03:13:41,560 --> 03:13:45,279
Speaker 10: right now that organizations are using that are a toonaments

3510
03:13:45,320 --> 03:13:48,119
Speaker 10: and so we're getting there, but we're not quite there

3511
03:13:48,240 --> 03:13:52,240
Speaker 10: because it's very different when you're dealing with flying over

3512
03:13:52,360 --> 03:13:54,439
Speaker 10: people and you're flying.

3513
03:13:54,240 --> 03:13:57,080
Speaker 7: Into areas where the drone was to drop out of.

3514
03:13:57,080 --> 03:13:59,120
Speaker 10: The sky and harm people in our community. That could

3515
03:13:59,600 --> 03:14:03,600
Speaker 10: create tremendous challenges for a silberberry. As I mentioned the

3516
03:14:03,720 --> 03:14:04,400
Speaker 10: crawl things.

3517
03:14:05,000 --> 03:14:08,240
Speaker 13: So to explain how these AI autonomous drones would work,

3518
03:14:08,720 --> 03:14:11,840
Speaker 13: It's essentially this box about the size of a truck

3519
03:14:11,879 --> 03:14:14,440
Speaker 13: bed that can either be mounted in like a police

3520
03:14:14,480 --> 03:14:18,199
Speaker 13: pickup truck or be stored on various rooftops around the city,

3521
03:14:18,680 --> 03:14:21,080
Speaker 13: and someone just needs to point at a place on

3522
03:14:21,120 --> 03:14:23,920
Speaker 13: a map and the drone will fly in pilot itself

3523
03:14:23,959 --> 03:14:28,119
Speaker 13: around obstacles and basically circle around an area to do surveillance,

3524
03:14:28,400 --> 03:14:30,680
Speaker 13: and you can call it back when you're done. This

3525
03:14:30,760 --> 03:14:33,560
Speaker 13: would require a whole bunch of drones to just be

3526
03:14:34,080 --> 03:14:36,720
Speaker 13: launching and being piloted by themselves. You wouldn't have to

3527
03:14:36,879 --> 03:14:40,440
Speaker 13: train random police officers to become FAA licensed pilots, and

3528
03:14:40,520 --> 03:14:42,640
Speaker 13: you could just have the whole thing in the box

3529
03:14:42,760 --> 03:14:45,120
Speaker 13: like it's called drone in the box. And these are

3530
03:14:45,200 --> 03:14:48,760
Speaker 13: only going to become more common and cheaper. Imagine having

3531
03:14:48,920 --> 03:14:51,920
Speaker 13: ten of these throat a city, launching from like ten

3532
03:14:52,000 --> 03:14:56,400
Speaker 13: different rooftops, being able to fly around by themselves, constantly

3533
03:14:56,760 --> 03:15:00,760
Speaker 13: going around in communities, constantly going to GPS coordinates linked

3534
03:15:00,800 --> 03:15:03,360
Speaker 13: to the nine one one calls creating a whole wealth

3535
03:15:03,400 --> 03:15:06,880
Speaker 13: of footage instantly available to police, live streamed from the air.

3536
03:15:07,959 --> 03:15:11,320
Speaker 13: Matt Sloane, the founder of Skyfire Consulting, a company here

3537
03:15:11,320 --> 03:15:13,840
Speaker 13: in Atlanta that trains law enforcement agencies on the use

3538
03:15:13,879 --> 03:15:17,199
Speaker 13: of drones and DFR programs, thinks that we'll start seeing

3539
03:15:17,520 --> 03:15:20,600
Speaker 13: autonomous deployment of police drones within the next year or two,

3540
03:15:21,000 --> 03:15:25,720
Speaker 13: as police budgets increase and become allocated for unmanned aerial systems.

3541
03:15:26,560 --> 03:15:28,960
Speaker 13: He referred to the state of drone use by police

3542
03:15:28,959 --> 03:15:34,480
Speaker 13: as quote rapidly escalating. Jula Vista likes to market itself

3543
03:15:34,560 --> 03:15:38,920
Speaker 13: as a pioneer of the smart city movement, which consequently

3544
03:15:39,360 --> 03:15:41,959
Speaker 13: makes them able to receive a whole bunch of grant funding.

3545
03:15:42,840 --> 03:15:43,040
Speaker 2: Now.

3546
03:15:43,480 --> 03:15:46,760
Speaker 13: The idea of the smart city is built around having

3547
03:15:46,959 --> 03:15:50,879
Speaker 13: a massive amount of data to automate certain city services.

3548
03:15:52,000 --> 03:15:53,840
Speaker 13: So for this idea to work, there needs to be

3549
03:15:53,879 --> 03:15:57,080
Speaker 13: a way to collect that data, and these drones are

3550
03:15:57,160 --> 03:16:00,320
Speaker 13: a major part of that. The website for the city

3551
03:16:00,360 --> 03:16:05,279
Speaker 13: of Truela Vista also lists projects like electronic transportation, adaptive

3552
03:16:05,320 --> 03:16:09,080
Speaker 13: traffic signals in app for non emergency city services, as

3553
03:16:09,160 --> 03:16:13,960
Speaker 13: well as quote crime mapping and police dispatch modernization unquote

3554
03:16:14,320 --> 03:16:17,720
Speaker 13: as also being smart city initiatives.

3555
03:16:18,480 --> 03:16:21,840
Speaker 10: We have what's called by nine one one, and that

3556
03:16:22,200 --> 03:16:25,279
Speaker 10: allows my officers to hear incoming nine more one calls

3557
03:16:25,800 --> 03:16:28,200
Speaker 10: before dispatch even puts it into the system. They can

3558
03:16:28,280 --> 03:16:32,240
Speaker 10: hear what's going on there, and that is tremendously in

3559
03:16:32,400 --> 03:16:36,560
Speaker 10: valuable to them. We have so many different layers of

3560
03:16:36,680 --> 03:16:40,400
Speaker 10: technology that have really showcase the value.

3561
03:16:40,920 --> 03:16:43,000
Speaker 13: Live nine one one is a new piece of software

3562
03:16:43,280 --> 03:16:46,360
Speaker 13: that allows patrol officers to listen to live stream to

3563
03:16:46,440 --> 03:16:49,480
Speaker 13: nine one one calls directly and pinpoints the location of

3564
03:16:49,560 --> 03:16:53,720
Speaker 13: the caller via GPS. Now, I don't even have time

3565
03:16:53,879 --> 03:16:55,840
Speaker 13: to get into the many reasons that this could be

3566
03:16:55,920 --> 03:16:59,360
Speaker 13: a bad idea, but simply put, police do not need

3567
03:16:59,440 --> 03:17:01,879
Speaker 13: to respond to every call that goes into nine one one,

3568
03:17:02,400 --> 03:17:06,000
Speaker 13: let alone be giving random cops this ability to self

3569
03:17:06,120 --> 03:17:09,320
Speaker 13: dispatch on their own. It just seems like that could

3570
03:17:09,360 --> 03:17:14,039
Speaker 13: have many many consequences. But anyway, back to drones. According

3571
03:17:14,080 --> 03:17:17,800
Speaker 13: to a twenty twenty article in the newspaper Loprenza, cities

3572
03:17:17,879 --> 03:17:21,520
Speaker 13: in San Diego County like Chula Vista, have received equipment

3573
03:17:21,600 --> 03:17:25,199
Speaker 13: such as tethered drones used for stationary surveillance poll cameras,

3574
03:17:25,320 --> 03:17:28,520
Speaker 13: license plate readers, and cell phone cracking technology used to

3575
03:17:28,560 --> 03:17:33,959
Speaker 13: circumvent passwords from the Urban Area Security Initiative DHS grant program.

3576
03:17:34,879 --> 03:17:37,680
Speaker 13: A lot of these technologies have use in the Smart

3577
03:17:37,800 --> 03:17:42,520
Speaker 13: City Idyllic plan for data collection to automate city services.

3578
03:17:43,640 --> 03:17:45,760
Speaker 13: After the drone panel was over and I was walking

3579
03:17:45,840 --> 03:17:49,160
Speaker 13: around the show floor at CEES, I couldn't help but

3580
03:17:49,320 --> 03:17:53,240
Speaker 13: notice all of the smart cameras and AI image recognition

3581
03:17:53,360 --> 03:17:58,200
Speaker 13: systems being advertised for law enforcement applications. Software that can

3582
03:17:58,560 --> 03:18:02,600
Speaker 13: almost instantaneously scan through a wealth of footage and track

3583
03:18:02,680 --> 03:18:07,279
Speaker 13: people's movements, run facial recognition, and identify every article of clothing.

3584
03:18:08,320 --> 03:18:11,240
Speaker 13: Versions of this type of software are already in use

3585
03:18:11,320 --> 03:18:14,760
Speaker 13: by many police departments, and they will only get better, cheaper,

3586
03:18:14,879 --> 03:18:18,640
Speaker 13: and more common. In effect, what this does is remove

3587
03:18:18,760 --> 03:18:21,720
Speaker 13: a lot of the detective legwork. Instead of having to

3588
03:18:21,760 --> 03:18:25,360
Speaker 13: manually map someone's movements and track down what niche etsy

3589
03:18:25,480 --> 03:18:29,640
Speaker 13: shirt someone's wearing, these aisystems can now do this all automatically.

3590
03:18:30,560 --> 03:18:34,520
Speaker 13: To quote the MIT Tech Review article on cvpd's DFR

3591
03:18:34,640 --> 03:18:39,160
Speaker 13: drone program quote. As the technology continues to spread, privacy

3592
03:18:39,240 --> 03:18:41,520
Speaker 13: and civil liberty groups are raising the question of what

3593
03:18:41,760 --> 03:18:45,000
Speaker 13: happens when drones are combined with license plate readers, networks

3594
03:18:45,080 --> 03:18:48,360
Speaker 13: of fixed cameras, and new real time command centers that

3595
03:18:48,520 --> 03:18:52,880
Speaker 13: digest and sort through video evidence. This digital dragnet could

3596
03:18:52,959 --> 03:18:57,240
Speaker 13: dramatically expand surveillance capabilities and lead to even more police

3597
03:18:57,280 --> 03:19:01,080
Speaker 13: interactions with demographics that have historically suffered from over policing.

3598
03:19:01,360 --> 03:19:01,800
Speaker 5: Unquote.

3599
03:19:02,560 --> 03:19:05,480
Speaker 13: Pedro Rios, a human rights advocate with the American Friends

3600
03:19:05,640 --> 03:19:09,240
Speaker 13: Service Committee and a member of Chula Vista's Community Tech Council,

3601
03:19:09,879 --> 03:19:13,400
Speaker 13: was quoted in the MIT article saying, quote, people in

3602
03:19:13,600 --> 03:19:16,800
Speaker 13: the community have no awareness of what images are captured,

3603
03:19:16,920 --> 03:19:20,200
Speaker 13: how the footage is retained, and who has access. It's

3604
03:19:20,240 --> 03:19:22,400
Speaker 13: a big red flag for a city that says it's

3605
03:19:22,440 --> 03:19:24,680
Speaker 13: at the forefront of the smart city movement.

3606
03:19:25,040 --> 03:19:25,480
Speaker 4: Unquote.

3607
03:19:26,240 --> 03:19:32,160
Speaker 10: These dramas they're revolutionizing the world. You, I mean people

3608
03:19:32,840 --> 03:19:36,520
Speaker 10: who are not taking drawn seriously right now? Who will

3609
03:19:36,520 --> 03:19:39,760
Speaker 10: be left behind. We have flown eighteen one hundred and

3610
03:19:39,879 --> 03:19:42,720
Speaker 10: fifty missions. You can go on a web page, you

3611
03:19:42,800 --> 03:19:46,360
Speaker 10: can see the flight data. We're extremely transparent. We share

3612
03:19:46,400 --> 03:19:47,320
Speaker 10: all that with our community.

3613
03:19:47,320 --> 03:19:48,200
Speaker 2: We have no need to hide.

3614
03:19:48,800 --> 03:19:51,680
Speaker 7: We are in the business of saving wise and I

3615
03:19:51,879 --> 03:19:54,320
Speaker 7: believe drums are one of the best estories focused.

3616
03:19:55,240 --> 03:19:58,599
Speaker 13: If they truly have nothing to hide and are extremely

3617
03:19:58,760 --> 03:20:02,920
Speaker 13: transparent about the use of their camera mounted drones, I

3618
03:20:03,080 --> 03:20:06,040
Speaker 13: wonder why they've spent years in court fighting to keep

3619
03:20:06,240 --> 03:20:11,000
Speaker 13: every second of drone footage from being seen by the public. Luckily,

3620
03:20:11,240 --> 03:20:14,560
Speaker 13: after Chief Kennedy talked for like thirty minutes about how

3621
03:20:14,640 --> 03:20:17,400
Speaker 13: much they care about community engagement and how transparent they

3622
03:20:17,440 --> 03:20:20,160
Speaker 13: are with their flight data, I was able to ask

3623
03:20:20,240 --> 03:20:24,240
Speaker 13: the Chief how their commitment to transparency relates to the

3624
03:20:24,360 --> 03:20:28,000
Speaker 13: recent lawsuit she just lost over hiding drone footage. And

3625
03:20:28,080 --> 03:20:30,720
Speaker 13: I also threw in a question about drones at protests.

3626
03:20:31,160 --> 03:20:32,400
Speaker 13: Let's take a listen.

3627
03:20:33,160 --> 03:20:34,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, a question for the chief.

3628
03:20:34,600 --> 03:20:36,160
Speaker 11: So, I know you talked about the importance of like

3629
03:20:36,680 --> 03:20:39,080
Speaker 11: listening to the community and community engagement. And I'm not

3630
03:20:39,080 --> 03:20:41,039
Speaker 11: sure this is the case for your department, but other

3631
03:20:41,120 --> 03:20:44,120
Speaker 11: departments who've kind of followed suit, for your example, have

3632
03:20:44,200 --> 03:20:48,080
Speaker 11: been using drones to surveil first amendent activity stuff. And

3633
03:20:48,160 --> 03:20:51,600
Speaker 11: I know you recently lost a court case regarding the

3634
03:20:51,680 --> 03:20:55,680
Speaker 11: availability of drone footage, so I'm curious about kind of

3635
03:20:57,040 --> 03:21:00,040
Speaker 11: what the rationale for that footage is and how that

3636
03:21:00,320 --> 03:21:02,680
Speaker 11: plays into this idea of trying to be transparent with

3637
03:21:02,760 --> 03:21:04,720
Speaker 11: the community for how these drones are being used.

3638
03:21:06,240 --> 03:21:07,879
Speaker 10: That's going to be going to be a little bit

3639
03:21:07,920 --> 03:21:10,160
Speaker 10: difficult for me to answer because the court case is

3640
03:21:10,240 --> 03:21:12,200
Speaker 10: still moving forward.

3641
03:21:12,480 --> 03:21:16,720
Speaker 7: It's an active case. If you read it, we didn't

3642
03:21:16,840 --> 03:21:17,760
Speaker 7: lose the case.

3643
03:21:18,240 --> 03:21:21,520
Speaker 10: It was recommended to go to a lower core to

3644
03:21:21,600 --> 03:21:24,480
Speaker 10: go back for some clarification under three categories.

3645
03:21:25,160 --> 03:21:28,520
Speaker 13: Now this is either a straight upply or a huge

3646
03:21:28,720 --> 03:21:31,000
Speaker 13: cope and a gross mischaracterization.

3647
03:21:31,720 --> 03:21:33,840
Speaker 5: But more on that in a sec I think.

3648
03:21:33,720 --> 03:21:39,760
Speaker 10: It's really important. As I mentioned, there are ethics involved in.

3649
03:21:40,200 --> 03:21:43,279
Speaker 10: The ethical responsibility that you have as a law enforcement

3650
03:21:43,360 --> 03:21:47,600
Speaker 10: agency is super important. So how you utilize your drones

3651
03:21:48,000 --> 03:21:52,800
Speaker 10: and how you do outreach with your community is fundamentally important.

3652
03:21:52,920 --> 03:21:57,240
Speaker 10: And so we don't use our drones for if there

3653
03:21:57,480 --> 03:22:01,160
Speaker 10: was a protest, We would not use are drones if

3654
03:22:01,200 --> 03:22:07,119
Speaker 10: there was if it turned into a riot. So if

3655
03:22:07,160 --> 03:22:09,560
Speaker 10: people were out there and they have the ability to

3656
03:22:11,320 --> 03:22:14,959
Speaker 10: to speak freely to share their concerns, and if it's

3657
03:22:15,000 --> 03:22:17,720
Speaker 10: in opposition, our goal is to make sure that we

3658
03:22:17,879 --> 03:22:20,440
Speaker 10: keep it safe for all parties involved on either side.

3659
03:22:20,959 --> 03:22:24,040
Speaker 10: So my hope is that other people look at it

3660
03:22:24,120 --> 03:22:27,920
Speaker 10: the same way that we do, and hopefully I've been

3661
03:22:27,920 --> 03:22:30,120
Speaker 10: able to answer it as much as I believe me,

3662
03:22:30,320 --> 03:22:32,680
Speaker 10: I'm dying to give you more than I can't.

3663
03:22:32,959 --> 03:22:37,080
Speaker 9: Okay, thank you for those questions, Folks were out of time.

3664
03:22:37,160 --> 03:22:39,039
Speaker 9: Maybe there could be questions after the.

3665
03:22:39,080 --> 03:22:42,199
Speaker 13: Session, So yeah, there were no more questions after mine.

3666
03:22:42,280 --> 03:22:45,160
Speaker 13: I kind of shut down that possibility anyway.

3667
03:22:45,240 --> 03:22:45,480
Speaker 4: Okay.

3668
03:22:45,720 --> 03:22:49,240
Speaker 13: So, first of all, the line between a protest and

3669
03:22:49,360 --> 03:22:52,959
Speaker 13: a riot is meaningless. Police can declare riot for any

3670
03:22:53,000 --> 03:22:56,480
Speaker 13: reason they see fit, including people being in a road marching.

3671
03:22:57,040 --> 03:23:00,400
Speaker 13: I've seen this happen dozens of times, nearly hundreds of

3672
03:23:00,440 --> 03:23:04,480
Speaker 13: times actually, So moving on from that immediately, let's go

3673
03:23:04,600 --> 03:23:08,080
Speaker 13: back to the court case. The city of Cheuelavista did

3674
03:23:08,240 --> 03:23:10,320
Speaker 13: lose the argument that they were trying to make. They

3675
03:23:10,360 --> 03:23:13,240
Speaker 13: did lose the case. The Fourth District Court of Appeals

3676
03:23:13,360 --> 03:23:17,080
Speaker 13: ruled that claiming exemption from the Public Records Act was

3677
03:23:17,200 --> 03:23:20,440
Speaker 13: unlawful and sent the case back to trial court to

3678
03:23:20,720 --> 03:23:23,600
Speaker 13: hammer the details of how much footage is subject to

3679
03:23:23,680 --> 03:23:27,320
Speaker 13: public disclosure and figure out a process for standardizing the

3680
03:23:27,440 --> 03:23:31,560
Speaker 13: release of the footage. Now. The same day I attended

3681
03:23:31,600 --> 03:23:35,280
Speaker 13: this panel in Las Vegas, January ninth, the city of

3682
03:23:35,320 --> 03:23:39,600
Speaker 13: Chula Vista requested an appeal to the California Supreme Court

3683
03:23:39,800 --> 03:23:43,400
Speaker 13: to prevent the release of their aerial video footage. There

3684
03:23:43,480 --> 03:23:46,120
Speaker 13: is a sixty day waiting period where the High Court

3685
03:23:46,160 --> 03:23:48,480
Speaker 13: will decide whether or not to take the case, and

3686
03:23:48,600 --> 03:23:51,480
Speaker 13: if they decline finally, it will go back to trial

3687
03:23:51,560 --> 03:23:53,920
Speaker 13: court to decide on the process of how selected drone

3688
03:23:53,959 --> 03:23:58,440
Speaker 13: footage shall be made publicly available. The police are now

3689
03:23:58,600 --> 03:24:02,480
Speaker 13: currently claiming that make DFR footage adhere to the Public

3690
03:24:02,520 --> 03:24:07,120
Speaker 13: Records Act would violate the privacy of Chula Vista residents

3691
03:24:07,280 --> 03:24:11,879
Speaker 13: captured in the videos, which perhaps demonstrates that the aerial

3692
03:24:12,000 --> 03:24:15,000
Speaker 13: videos should have never been captured in the first place.

3693
03:24:15,760 --> 03:24:18,039
Speaker 13: I'm going to read a press release from the city's

3694
03:24:18,160 --> 03:24:22,440
Speaker 13: communication manager. Quote, the city declined to provide the copies

3695
03:24:22,520 --> 03:24:26,480
Speaker 13: because doing so might have violated individual privacy rights. The

3696
03:24:26,560 --> 03:24:29,360
Speaker 13: city would have to manually review and redact every video

3697
03:24:29,440 --> 03:24:32,920
Speaker 13: recording to protect information considered personal, such as the images

3698
03:24:33,000 --> 03:24:37,360
Speaker 13: of faces, license plates, backyards, and more. Unquote, So the

3699
03:24:37,440 --> 03:24:40,520
Speaker 13: city is both trying to argue that having to manually

3700
03:24:40,600 --> 03:24:43,520
Speaker 13: review each requested file to determine if the video in

3701
03:24:43,640 --> 03:24:47,840
Speaker 13: question is related to appending investigation, as well as redacting

3702
03:24:48,080 --> 03:24:51,840
Speaker 13: personal information captured on camera would be way too costly

3703
03:24:51,959 --> 03:24:55,920
Speaker 13: and time consuming. City officials claim that reviewing and redacting

3704
03:24:56,000 --> 03:24:59,080
Speaker 13: videos from one month to obscure faces, license plates, and

3705
03:24:59,160 --> 03:25:03,000
Speaker 13: backyards would take a full time employee around two hundred

3706
03:25:03,080 --> 03:25:06,039
Speaker 13: and thirty days. I'm going to read a little bit

3707
03:25:06,080 --> 03:25:09,160
Speaker 13: more from the city's recent statement. Quote, while the city

3708
03:25:09,320 --> 03:25:13,400
Speaker 13: takes very seriously its obligation to provide the public access

3709
03:25:13,480 --> 03:25:16,879
Speaker 13: to public records, the city is concerned that the Court

3710
03:25:16,879 --> 03:25:22,520
Speaker 13: of Appeal's opinion may compromise significant privacy concerns of members

3711
03:25:22,560 --> 03:25:25,680
Speaker 13: of the public in this case or in future requests.

3712
03:25:25,959 --> 03:25:26,439
Speaker 4: Unquote.

3713
03:25:27,600 --> 03:25:31,360
Speaker 13: Somehow the city is missing the point that this is

3714
03:25:31,920 --> 03:25:35,560
Speaker 13: the very reason the drone footage is being requested to

3715
03:25:35,720 --> 03:25:39,440
Speaker 13: learn the actual nature of this highly influential drone first

3716
03:25:39,480 --> 03:25:43,120
Speaker 13: responder program that's being adopted across the country. If the

3717
03:25:43,240 --> 03:25:46,640
Speaker 13: existence of this footage is such a massive privacy violation,

3718
03:25:47,360 --> 03:25:51,160
Speaker 13: that implies that the recording of said footage itself implicitly

3719
03:25:51,320 --> 03:25:56,000
Speaker 13: violates people's privacy, and the harder police fight to hide

3720
03:25:56,080 --> 03:25:59,720
Speaker 13: their sweeping collection of aerial footage, all the more suspicious

3721
03:25:59,760 --> 03:26:01,360
Speaker 13: this entire program seems.

3722
03:26:02,360 --> 03:26:02,400
Speaker 6: So.

3723
03:26:02,640 --> 03:26:05,000
Speaker 13: That is what I have to say about Chula Vista's

3724
03:26:05,400 --> 03:26:08,920
Speaker 13: drone first Responder program. In about a month and a half,

3725
03:26:09,520 --> 03:26:12,360
Speaker 13: the Supreme Court of California will make their decision on

3726
03:26:12,560 --> 03:26:14,560
Speaker 13: whether or not they're going to hear this case. If

3727
03:26:14,600 --> 03:26:18,160
Speaker 13: they decline, then the president will be set statewide against

3728
03:26:18,200 --> 03:26:22,000
Speaker 13: this exemption of the Public Records Act by hiding drone footage,

3729
03:26:22,400 --> 03:26:25,880
Speaker 13: So that will be really cool, And then hopefully within

3730
03:26:25,959 --> 03:26:28,160
Speaker 13: the next year, we'll finally be able to see what

3731
03:26:28,320 --> 03:26:30,760
Speaker 13: some of this footage actually looks like, how good their

3732
03:26:30,840 --> 03:26:32,560
Speaker 13: cameras are, how much they can zoom in, all of

3733
03:26:32,600 --> 03:26:34,960
Speaker 13: the details of how much of the city they're capturing,

3734
03:26:35,280 --> 03:26:37,040
Speaker 13: all this kind of stuff, how often the drones are

3735
03:26:37,040 --> 03:26:39,480
Speaker 13: in the air, all of those types of things that

3736
03:26:39,600 --> 03:26:42,320
Speaker 13: it will be easier to highlight once we can actually

3737
03:26:42,360 --> 03:26:43,199
Speaker 13: take a look at the footage.

3738
03:26:43,520 --> 03:26:45,039
Speaker 5: And I assume that.

3739
03:26:45,720 --> 03:26:49,320
Speaker 13: Going through and releasing requested files for one month will

3740
03:26:49,360 --> 03:26:51,840
Speaker 13: probably end up not taking two hundred and thirty days.

3741
03:26:51,920 --> 03:26:54,600
Speaker 13: But I do know how the police love to love

3742
03:26:54,640 --> 03:26:57,360
Speaker 13: to stretch out these public records requests for as long

3743
03:26:57,400 --> 03:27:00,040
Speaker 13: as they can. As the request that this lawsuit it

3744
03:27:00,080 --> 03:27:02,640
Speaker 13: stems from, it's all the way back to April of

3745
03:27:02,680 --> 03:27:06,920
Speaker 13: twenty twenty one, So hopefully hopefully more than three years later,

3746
03:27:07,280 --> 03:27:11,520
Speaker 13: we'll finally get a look special thanks to Loprenza for

3747
03:27:12,160 --> 03:27:15,200
Speaker 13: starting this lawsuit and doing all of the hard work

3748
03:27:15,280 --> 03:27:17,920
Speaker 13: to actually force the police to be transparent. And if

3749
03:27:17,959 --> 03:27:19,520
Speaker 13: you want to read more, I'd recommend checking out the

3750
03:27:19,520 --> 03:27:22,360
Speaker 13: website to Loprenza dot org, as well as the MIT

3751
03:27:22,480 --> 03:27:25,840
Speaker 13: tech review piece, which provided some really really useful information

3752
03:27:26,160 --> 03:27:28,040
Speaker 13: to fill in the gaps between my own research.

3753
03:27:28,240 --> 03:27:29,480
Speaker 12: So yeah, thank you for.

3754
03:27:29,520 --> 03:27:31,959
Speaker 13: Listening to It could happen here. It certainly could happen

3755
03:27:32,000 --> 03:27:34,960
Speaker 13: here in terms of seeing more of these little fuckers

3756
03:27:35,040 --> 03:27:36,040
Speaker 13: flying around in the air.

3757
03:27:39,640 --> 03:27:42,800
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3758
03:27:42,879 --> 03:27:44,760
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3759
03:27:45,400 --> 03:27:47,720
Speaker 4: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3760
03:27:47,959 --> 03:27:50,600
Speaker 8: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3761
03:27:50,680 --> 03:27:53,760
Speaker 8: Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3762
03:27:53,800 --> 03:27:56,320
Speaker 8: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3763
03:27:56,760 --> 03:27:58,840
Speaker 6: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated

3764
03:27:58,920 --> 03:28:01,920
Speaker 6: monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash sources.

3765
03:28:02,160 --> 03:28:02,960
Speaker 8: Thanks for listening.