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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: I also suffer from claustrophobia. The idea of going into

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Speaker 2: a cave or even thinking about, you know, getting stuck

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Speaker 2: in a cave causes me great mental distress. I mean,

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Speaker 2: does this mean I can do this at home on

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Speaker 2: my own or doesn't need to be done under the

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Speaker 2: supervision of a psychologist because he or she are sort

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Speaker 2: of at the same time I'm tapping, they're kind of

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Speaker 2: probing and asking me to think about certain things and

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Speaker 2: directing me. Is that essential, very good question.

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Speaker 3: It is both a self help technique and a technique

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Speaker 3: that really helps the clinician be more effective. So as

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Speaker 3: a self help technique, there is a fairly simple protocol

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Speaker 3: that you can use, and it works on a remarkable

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Speaker 3: number of things. And I can't tell you whether the

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Speaker 3: self help version would be enough for you, but it

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Speaker 3: would almost certainly decrease the amount of anxiety that you

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Speaker 3: have when you think about or actually go into something

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Speaker 3: like a cave. And sometimes there's something deeper that comes

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Speaker 3: up that really does require extra assistance, such as the

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Speaker 3: woman who went back to her memory of being in

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Speaker 3: trapped in that appliance box and just screaming. If the

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Speaker 3: therapist wasn't able to really help her to process that,

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Speaker 3: it might just have been another re traumatization. So there's

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Speaker 3: the one has to pace oneself. But there's a lot

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Speaker 3: that you can do. In fact, the book that you're mentioning,

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Speaker 3: we had test drivers who were not familiar with energy psychology,

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Speaker 3: as well as experts and energy psychology test drive all

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Speaker 3: the exercises in the book to be sure that it

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Speaker 3: can be used on a self help basis, because Donna Eden,

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Speaker 3: my wife, and I co authors have had many experiences

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Speaker 3: of people getting a great deal of help when we

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Speaker 3: are instructing them, but going through a book or an app.

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Speaker 3: There are also apps. It does not have a therapist there,

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Speaker 3: and each of the people that did the book as

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Speaker 3: test drivers found that it was very helpful and that

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Speaker 3: there were instructions in the book of where to go

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Speaker 3: if you were starting to get overwhelmed. So if, for instance,

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Speaker 3: the woman that I spoke of, we're doing this on

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Speaker 3: her own and we're following the instructions in the book,

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Speaker 3: when she started to get overwhelmed, she would shift from

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Speaker 3: the situation to using some energy healing techniques that immediately

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Speaker 3: calm the body so that she could have gotten centered

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Speaker 3: again and then returned to the work. So there's a

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Speaker 3: great deal that can be done on a self help basis.

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Speaker 3: The way that we structured the book is that each

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Speaker 3: chapter that like, for instance, there's a chapter that deals

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Speaker 3: with depression, it starts off dealing with sadness, the kinds

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Speaker 3: of feelings that everybody has as they go through their life,

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Speaker 3: and showing how to use this not to make sadness

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Speaker 3: go away necessarily, but to really get the lessons that

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Speaker 3: the sadness is trying to teach you, to find out

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Speaker 3: what that sadness is telling you about your life and

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Speaker 3: what you need to process that perhaps you haven't processed yet.

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Speaker 3: But as it goes in from sadness to depression, that's

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Speaker 3: where we tell the reader that if you're having extreme depression,

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Speaker 3: chronic depression, depression that goes back to childhood for instance,

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Speaker 3: you really need to work along with the therapist as

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Speaker 3: you use these techniques. So the second half of the

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Speaker 3: chapter teaches the person how to work within therapy, and

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Speaker 3: it also teaches therapists how to apply this technique applied

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Speaker 3: tapping to the best practices psychology has to offer for

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Speaker 3: working with depression. Same thing with the chapter on anxiety.

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Speaker 3: It starts out with basic fears and then goes all

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Speaker 3: the way up through panic up to PTSD. Chapter on

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Speaker 3: addiction starts out with working with habits and then goes

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Speaker 3: up to peak to working with addictions. So it's so,

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Speaker 3: it's so the answer, Richard is really both that there's

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Speaker 3: a great deal you can do on a self help basis,

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Speaker 3: but there is a point where it really is advisable

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Speaker 3: to be working with somebody that is skilled.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so tapping is you mentioned you know that the

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Speaker 2: patient in the beginning you mentioned with claustrophobia was instructed

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Speaker 2: to tap on certain acupuncture points. Are there specific acupuncture

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Speaker 2: points that you tap on for each, let's say, mental issue,

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Speaker 2: whether it's is there an a pressure point for depression,

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Speaker 2: another one for claustrophobia, another one for addiction.

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Speaker 3: Very good question. Originally there was there were different protocols

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Speaker 3: that the founder of this approach used for different conditions.

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Speaker 3: In the nineteen eighties, one of his students, who is

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Speaker 3: an engineer as well as a hypnotist, said, you know,

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Speaker 3: this can be simplified, and he came up with one approach.

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Speaker 3: It's all one size fits all way of doing it.

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Speaker 3: So he chose a series of points. We use twelve

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Speaker 3: points in the book Don and I, but usually they're

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Speaker 3: between eight and fourteen points that are used that are

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Speaker 3: used for every condition. So in theory, what you're doing

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Speaker 3: is you're getting the whole energy system moving in a

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Speaker 3: way that is healing that helps to overcome the problem.

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Speaker 3: And so there really are two different theories for why

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Speaker 3: this works. One is outside of science and one is

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Speaker 3: within science. The one that's outside of science is based

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Speaker 3: on acupuncture and the acupuncture meridians, and that you are

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Speaker 3: balancing the bodies the energy systems, that trauma is caught

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Speaker 3: in the energy system and you're really addressing it that way.

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Speaker 3: The approach that I talk about much more has to

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Speaker 3: do with nature. The electrical nature of acupuncture points. That

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Speaker 3: there is a difference between an acupuncture point and an

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Speaker 3: adjacent point. Electrochemically, acupuncture point induct electricity much more than

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Speaker 3: other points. So that's the first thing that it needs

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Speaker 3: to be interested. The second thing is that tapping on

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Speaker 3: an acupuncture point generates an electrical signal, and that is

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Speaker 3: a well known process that doesn't come from energy psychologists

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Speaker 3: from physics and biology that there are certain cells that

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Speaker 3: when pressure is applied to them, it opens up ion

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Speaker 3: channels that wind up aiding a electrical signal that goes

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Speaker 3: to the nervous system and that also appears to go

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Speaker 3: to the body's connective tissue, and from the connective tissue

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Speaker 3: has a lot of collagen, which is a semiconductor, which

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Speaker 3: means that when that signal hits the connective tissue, it

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Speaker 3: can move very fast, almost speed of light, fast to

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Speaker 3: wherever it is needed and where is it needed. What

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Speaker 3: happens is that whatever the person is thinking about, whatever

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Speaker 3: part of the brain is active when they're thinking about

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Speaker 3: their problem or their condition or their goal, that becomes

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Speaker 3: like a magnet that attracts the signal to that part

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Speaker 3: of the brain. So you are tapping on this point,

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Speaker 3: for instance, on your hand, and you are thinking of

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Speaker 3: going into a cave. When you think about going into

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Speaker 3: a cave, it activates your amignala, the threat activation part

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Speaker 3: of the brain that tracks that signals from tapping on

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Speaker 3: your hand goes really connective tissue to the brain and

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Speaker 3: it gives the instruction to calm to deactivate the amgalo

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Speaker 3: from the threat response.

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Speaker 2: Is there any scientific are there studies like could you

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Speaker 2: see this on a brain scan or I don't know,

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Speaker 2: some sort of imaging device while you're tapping, you can

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Speaker 2: see the brain centers that are activated.

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Speaker 3: Right. All this is fairly preliminary, but there are some

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Speaker 3: studies that really do show it. For instance, there is

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Speaker 3: an FMRII study, which is a very sophisticated imaging tool

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Speaker 3: that shows where blood is flowing in the brain, which

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Speaker 3: means that where the blood is flowing is where it

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Speaker 3: is going to parts of the brain that are active.

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Speaker 3: That once they did a study of pain and a

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Speaker 3: study of food cravings. In a study of food cravings,

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Speaker 3: what they did was very clever because you can't cap

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Speaker 3: while someone's in an fMRI machine. So what they did

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Speaker 3: was they you can flash images. So they there's a

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Speaker 3: group of people of obese people who were in a

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Speaker 3: program to use weights. Before they entered the program, they

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Speaker 3: went to the fMRI and images of junk food were

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Speaker 3: flashed in front of their eyes, and the FMR showed

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Speaker 3: what parts of their brain light up when they see

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Speaker 3: these junk foods, and the parts of the brain that

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Speaker 3: light lit up had to do with craving, had to

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Speaker 3: do with reinforcement, had to do with desire. Then they

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Speaker 3: went through twelve tapping sessions group tapping sessions actually, which

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Speaker 3: were all oriented towards losing weight towards craving, And at

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Speaker 3: the end of the twelve they got back into the

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Speaker 3: machine and the FMRII showed that even though they saw

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Speaker 3: the exact same images of junk food, those parts of

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Speaker 3: the brain that had to do with craving did not

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Speaker 3: lie up, so the blood did not flow there. So

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Speaker 3: there was a shift that in those twelve sessions from

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Speaker 3: being very vulnerable to the craving for those foods to

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Speaker 3: being not vulnerable at all. This corresponded with weight loss

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Speaker 3: and corresponded with subjective reports of feeling of experience being

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Speaker 3: less craving. So what you had there is that the

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Speaker 3: tapping had sent signals to the parts of the brain

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Speaker 3: that we're activated when they would think of the jump

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Speaker 3: fruit and that, and then it reduced the activity in

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Speaker 3: those parts of the brain.

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Speaker 2: That's remarkable. What about what about an addiction, whether there's

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Speaker 2: a strong there's a like a physiological dependency, like I

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Speaker 2: don't know, an opioid addiction. Would this tapping technique work

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Speaker 2: with that type of an addiction.

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Speaker 3: Yes, the addictions are tough. Serious addictions require a multi

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Speaker 3: modal approach, but tapping can really help. There are clinics

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Speaker 3: now that we're in patient clinics where tapping is the

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Speaker 3: major therapy that it's used very few, but they're starting

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Speaker 3: to take roots. So, but you don't throw away all

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Speaker 3: the other things that you utilize intriguing addiction you but

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Speaker 3: what the tapping does is, like with the food cravings,

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Speaker 3: it will decrease the amount of of pulls that the

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Speaker 3: object of choice, whether it's a drug or pornography or

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Speaker 3: whatever it is, it will decrease the chemical pull towards

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Speaker 3: that so that other you know, addictions have changed the

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Speaker 3: person's life. So you're you're really having to work with

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Speaker 3: all the ways that their relationships may may be in trouble.

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Speaker 3: All that is part of the package in working with

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Speaker 3: somebody with an addiction. You often want peer support twelve

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Speaker 3: twelve step groups or whatever kinds of group peer support

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Speaker 3: is most effective for that particular kind of addition. So

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Speaker 3: so it's not like an easy you just tap the

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Speaker 3: addiction away. No, it's not like that at all, but

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Speaker 3: it can really be a very strong component of a

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Speaker 3: full program for working with addictions.

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Speaker 2: You began our discussion talking about how I guess one

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Speaker 2: of the directors at the Johns Hopkins Medical Center sent

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Speaker 2: you to California to search out different modalities. When you

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Speaker 2: came back with him and you told him about tapping

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Speaker 2: and explained how it worked, what was his.

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Speaker 3: Response, Well, it was actually ten years before I'd ever

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Speaker 3: heard of tapping, so I had looked at all. So

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Speaker 3: it had prepared me to really be skeptical about tapping,

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Speaker 3: because I had been skeptical of all these other therapies.

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Speaker 3: As it turned out. He was the chairman of the

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Speaker 3: Department of Psychiatry, Joel Elkie's, and a wonderful man, and

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Speaker 3: I kept in touch with him over the years because

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Speaker 3: he really helped my career in tremendous ways. And so

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Speaker 3: when I started to get into energy psychology and I

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Speaker 3: wrote my first book on it, he was very skeptical

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Speaker 3: at first, and I actually helped him. You know, he

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Speaker 3: was elderly at this point and everybody was using computers

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Speaker 3: and he found that very frightening, and I helped him

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Speaker 3: get over his fear of using computers, and that really

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Speaker 3: won him over so that he actually, with the full,

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Speaker 3: you know, full authority of his incredible, you know position,

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Speaker 3: he endorsed the book. He gave it a very strong endorsement,

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Speaker 3: and so that was So that's the kind of roundabout

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Speaker 3: answer to your question. He didn't that study when I

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Speaker 3: was in my late twenties, did not food tapping that

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Speaker 3: I came back, There was a full circle back to

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Speaker 3: the person that commissioned to study.

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