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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Kate, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. How are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing good. You know, I've many people out there. No,

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Speaker 3: I have a dog by the name of Korra, a

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Speaker 3: yellow Lab. She's I think she's eight and a half

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Speaker 3: years old now, but has been such a joy.

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Speaker 4: To have for the family.

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Speaker 3: And I've previously have had dogs, and I know how

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Speaker 3: much you know, from getting them as a young puppy

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Speaker 3: and raising them and training them, how much work they are.

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Speaker 3: My wife didn't have dogs before, and so when Cora

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Speaker 3: was a puppy, my wife was so frustrated. And the

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Speaker 3: reason we got Cora was because my son wanted a dog,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, are you sure I know what

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Speaker 3: this is like having another child. And of course we

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Speaker 3: went through some struggles with a yellow lab. I mean,

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Speaker 3: everybody's familiar with Marley. Yellow Labs for the first four

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Speaker 3: or five years of their life are trouble great dogs,

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Speaker 3: great dogs, great personality, but there they get into trouble

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Speaker 3: and they're high energy and then coorra at you at

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Speaker 3: eight and a half. She's she is very docile and

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Speaker 3: just so easy going and well trained too.

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Speaker 1: She's your companion. I mean, that's a companion dog.

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Speaker 3: I think that's great, and she wants to be around

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Speaker 3: the family. We can't put her outside by herself, you know.

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Speaker 3: It's like you put her out on our rear deck.

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Speaker 3: You know, in Colorado you have to be careful because

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Speaker 3: of the wildlife, you know, but we have a rear

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Speaker 3: deck where she would be protected. You put her out there,

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Speaker 3: and all she does is lean up against the rear door,

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Speaker 3: wanting to come back inside and be around people.

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Speaker 2: Sweet, we're getting a new puppy and we're struggling with

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Speaker 2: the name.

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Speaker 1: How did you pick out Cora's name.

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Speaker 3: Oh, this was literally my youngest daughter came up with

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Speaker 3: the name Coorra, just out of the blue. And I

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Speaker 3: can't even know where that name came from. It's just

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Speaker 3: what are we going to name this puppy. We came

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Speaker 3: home with Cora. She was I think ten weeks old

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Speaker 3: when we got her. Yeah, I was like, well, what

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Speaker 3: is going to be this dog's name? And then my

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Speaker 3: youngest daughter, who was very young at the time. I

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Speaker 3: would say she would have been on the order of

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Speaker 3: five six years old, came up with the name Core

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Speaker 3: And so that's how that name came to be.

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Speaker 1: That sounds so simple. I'm jealous.

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Speaker 2: We're in a huge our old family's in a big

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Speaker 2: fight over the name of this puppy. And I did

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Speaker 2: not think the first dog, Ruby was The girls were

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Speaker 2: nine when we got her, and it was very simple

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Speaker 2: because I just said, this dog is named Ruby and

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Speaker 2: they said, okay, And that is not the case. Now

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Speaker 2: now they're in seventh grade and they have very strong opinions.

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Speaker 4: Of course they do, I know.

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Speaker 2: And we had to get a piece of paper out

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Speaker 2: and have everyone list their top five names.

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Speaker 1: We talked for two hours.

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Speaker 2: Top five names one through five, because my theory was

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Speaker 2: cross reference the lists. Somebody will have, you know, a

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Speaker 2: similar name, and you know, we'll all agree on it

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Speaker 2: and it'll be very happy.

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Speaker 1: And that was not the case. We're still arguing about it.

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Speaker 2: I said, Millie, but that sounds close to Ruby because

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Speaker 2: of the E at the end. And I've read that

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Speaker 2: it confuses dogs to have similar names when you're trying

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Speaker 2: to train them. So it is just NonStop stress over

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Speaker 2: a dog name. But I guess it's identity for them too,

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Speaker 2: so it's important, So we will continue to argue.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's like naming a child, right.

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Speaker 2: So I had a friend who named their dog DOGI

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Speaker 2: and I said, where does that come from?

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Speaker 1: Doji? And he said dog? So yeah, that's creative.

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Speaker 4: I've heard of that before.

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Speaker 2: Yes, my third dog, who I was in love with,

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Speaker 2: I found and so I named her Jane Doe and

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Speaker 2: we just shortened it to Jane because I want a

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Speaker 2: clue for this puppy, and everybody nixed clue, so there's

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Speaker 2: no clue puppy.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, I'm horrible with coming up with names, you know,

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Speaker 3: like when it came to the kids, I just said,

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Speaker 3: I have veto rights.

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to be proposing names. I have veto rights.

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Speaker 3: But with my first marriage, we ended up getting two

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Speaker 3: Persian kittens. Oh, my first wife was big into Persian kids,

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Speaker 3: but we couldn't come up with names, and so for

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Speaker 3: the first year of their life they were white Kitty

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Speaker 3: and gray kitty.

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Speaker 4: Dad.

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Speaker 3: Then it came up to my daughter, my oldest daughter,

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Speaker 3: who came up with the names Sumo and Nuzzle, Sumo

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Speaker 3: being the gray one.

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Speaker 4: And Nuzzle being the white one.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's sweets.

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Speaker 4: Stuck for the rest of their lives.

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Speaker 2: Well, I find that Ruby is definitely a ruby, even

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Speaker 2: though she.

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Speaker 1: Has not read. She is light colored, very light, kind

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Speaker 1: of blondie. So we'll see.

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Speaker 2: I'll update everyone on the name of this dog. This

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Speaker 2: was a lovely way to start optimistically for an episode

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Speaker 2: that is a pretty intense episode about the deaths of

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Speaker 2: two people, and this is gonna be You're really gonna

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Speaker 2: have to put your thinking cap on. Forensically, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of forensics in this story that I find really interesting.

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Speaker 2: They did some things in nineteen thirty five. I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure our kosher, but we'll figure it out.

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Speaker 1: You can tell me.

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Speaker 2: And I'm gonna spring some photos on you haven't seen yet.

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Speaker 4: Okay, sounds good.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's go ahead and set the scene. So it's

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty five, we are in the UK. We start

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Speaker 2: in Scotland and then we move over to Lancaster. So

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Speaker 2: in September nineteen thirty five, there's a woman who was

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Speaker 2: walking in the Scottish town of Moffatt and she's walking

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Speaker 2: over a bridge and inexplicably she sees a human arm

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Speaker 2: that's protruding from the stream below, and of course freaks

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Speaker 2: out calls the police, and the police are soon on

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Speaker 2: the scene and they start discovering what the killer did,

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Speaker 2: which is very, very gruesome even by my standards. I

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Speaker 2: feel like a pretty high threshold for what I think

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Speaker 2: is gruesome, and this was pretty gruesome to me.

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Speaker 1: So listen to this.

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Speaker 2: There are nearly thirty packages containing seventy pieces seventy pieces

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Speaker 2: of badly decomposed human body parts in the stream and

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Speaker 2: surrounding the ravine. So let's just start with that. So

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Speaker 2: seventy pieces in thirty different packages. This is obvious dismembering technique.

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Speaker 2: What is the point of this hoping they'll all float

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Speaker 2: downstream or why make so many packages.

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Speaker 3: Well, first, do we know, is this just a single

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Speaker 3: body at this location? Now, okay, offenders dismember bodies predominantly

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Speaker 3: for ease of transport, for ease of hiding the body parts,

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Speaker 3: for packaging them, for distributing the body across wide geographic area,

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Speaker 3: to delay the bodies being found, and with the ultimate

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Speaker 3: hope that the body parts are never found and attributed

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Speaker 3: back to the victim. So this offender to take the

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Speaker 3: time to cut the body up into seventy different parts

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Speaker 3: if it's just one body, obviously is trying to really

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Speaker 3: prevent the identification of the body. However, disposing of the

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Speaker 3: body in the same location, so it's not like the

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Speaker 3: intent was to distribute the body unless something interrupted the

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Speaker 3: offender's plant.

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Speaker 1: This is what's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: This is the person who seems organized versus someone who

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Speaker 2: seemed to be interrupted. So listen to this. Thirty packages,

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Speaker 2: seventy body parts. Some were wrapped in newspaper, some were

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Speaker 2: wrapped in clothing, some were wrapped in sheets, and some

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Speaker 2: were that just dumped in without any wrapping at all.

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Speaker 2: So eventually they find two severed heads, two upper chests

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Speaker 2: of pelvis, seventeen pieces of arms and legs and forty

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Speaker 2: three pieces of soft tissue, which earned these murders the

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Speaker 2: name the Jigsaw murders. Oh wow, two heads, so two people.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So we have two bodies that are being dismembered yep,

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Speaker 3: packaged up but dumped in the same location where all

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Speaker 3: these packages actually in this river.

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Speaker 2: Yes, everything's in the stream after they searched the stream.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how widely they had to

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Speaker 2: search in a stream indicates to me, of course, not

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Speaker 2: a deep river. So it seems haphazard to me, does

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Speaker 2: it seem to you? I mean, that's not all neatly packaged,

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Speaker 2: and the similar wrapping clothing can be identified, newspapers can

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Speaker 2: be identified.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's most only going to be evidence that could

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Speaker 3: hurt the offender down the road. I'm trying to think

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Speaker 3: of why the offender would make all this effort to

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Speaker 3: cut the body parts up and package them across thirty packages,

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Speaker 3: and then just dump all those packages in a single location. Now,

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Speaker 3: this is nineteen thirty five, you said, correct, Yep. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So we're vehicles being used heavily at the time.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine there were vehicles.

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Speaker 2: I assume that they used a vehicle to transport the

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Speaker 2: bodies because we're going to find out that they were

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Speaker 2: for sure killed in a different location.

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Speaker 3: Okay, because you know, I think part of the limitation

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Speaker 3: that the offender would have in nineteen thirty five versus

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Speaker 3: today is motorized vehicles.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, even though these packages, each of.

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Speaker 3: Themselves are small and relatively light, you still have thirty

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Speaker 3: packages that contain two bodies. And if these are two

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Speaker 3: adult bodies, even if there let's say smaller stature adults,

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Speaker 3: you've got probably a couple hundred pounds worth of human

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Speaker 3: and then remains that you have to transport. So that

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Speaker 3: could be playing into why you have such a limited

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Speaker 3: geographic distribution.

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Speaker 2: And what's interesting here is that there apparently is so

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Speaker 2: much decomposition in these body parts that they can tell

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Speaker 2: at least there's one female I'm assuming maybe genitalia or

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Speaker 2: breasts or something, but they don't know about the other one.

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Speaker 2: They don't know if the other one's male or female.

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Speaker 2: So they have heads. So this must have been severe decomposition.

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Speaker 4: Okay, soft issue is gone. There's going to be.

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Speaker 3: An assessment by experts whether or not this decomposition. It's

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Speaker 3: possible maybe these bodies had been dead for a period

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Speaker 3: of time before they were dismembered and then thrown into

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Speaker 3: the water. That would show a different type of decompositional

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Speaker 3: process than bodies that were dismembered fresh and then thrown

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Speaker 3: right away into the river. So that's where your experts

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Speaker 3: will start weighing in, and that gives investigators information and

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Speaker 3: insight as to, you know, how to proceed with their investigation.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to give you a clue, and the

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Speaker 2: clue here is we're going to find out that they

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Speaker 2: had been dead for fifteen days. So I think you're

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Speaker 2: right kept them and then transported them after a week

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Speaker 2: or two, perhaps because a stream that doesn't seem like

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Speaker 2: the ideal place to dump bodies, because it just seems

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Speaker 2: like they would be more visible exactly.

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Speaker 3: That's what's really confounding me in terms of the effort

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Speaker 3: the offender is making for the dismemberment and the disposal process,

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Speaker 3: but then dumping them at a location where they're going

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Speaker 3: to be readily seen, readily found. You know, is a

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Speaker 3: stream something that would routinely flood. Maybe the offender's seekiness

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Speaker 3: there's going to be fast currents and was hoping to

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Speaker 3: see these remains get distributed downstream.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but obviously that didn't happen.

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Speaker 1: No, easily found. She's walking over a bridge.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what the depth is between the bridge

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Speaker 2: and the stream, but stream just seems everything is shallow.

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Speaker 2: So when they go to try to identify these people,

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Speaker 2: they have two problems. One is that there's as you

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Speaker 2: had said and as you guessed, and it's true, the

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Speaker 2: soft tissue on the faces were gone. Okay, okay, so

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Speaker 2: they just had skulls, and that's going to play into

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Speaker 2: a really important fact in a little bit. The other

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Speaker 2: thing is that whoever did this had mutilated their fingers.

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Speaker 2: So let me show you a photo and no listeners.

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Speaker 2: We can't put this on the internet because it grosses

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Speaker 2: me out. And as I said, it's a pretty high

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Speaker 2: bar for me to get grossed out. So this is

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Speaker 2: a severed hand, and you can see that this was

243
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Speaker 2: not just someone taking a razor and marking up the

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Speaker 2: fingertips to conceal the identity with fingerprints.

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Speaker 1: These are they look severed completely. Does it look like

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Speaker 1: that to you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, in fact, it looks like the finger tips

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Speaker 3: probably at the uh i'll call it the second knuckle. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the big knuckle of each finger as well as the thumb.

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Speaker 3: The fingers are completely gone from above that knuckle area,

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Speaker 3: and I can't quite make out in the photo the

252
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Speaker 3: type of tool, but it would not surprise me that

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Speaker 3: if this was, you know, some sort of whether it's

254
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Speaker 3: you know, a knife versus some sort of sheer, you know,

255
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Speaker 3: a tool that could cut the fingers off. The margins

256
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Speaker 3: of the skin don't look exactly really clean, so that

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Speaker 3: suggests to me that possibly there was some sort of

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Speaker 3: sawing action going on to cut these fingers off.

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Speaker 2: And you have told me in the past log everything

260
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Speaker 2: Paul Holles tells me in my little forensic mind bank.

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Speaker 2: You've said in the past that if you just have

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Speaker 2: a knowledge of maybe breaking down a deer that has

263
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Speaker 2: been killed, you should know where to cut at joints

264
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Speaker 2: or places like that to be able to dismember really easily.

265
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Speaker 2: Because I'll tell you, the police think for sure this

266
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Speaker 2: is somebody who is in the medical profession. And I

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Speaker 2: know that you don't always agree with that.

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Speaker 3: As sad no, not at all, especially when you start

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Speaker 3: talking something you know as fragile, if you will, as fingers.

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Speaker 3: You know this is not going to take a lot

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Speaker 3: of effort in order to cut through these fingers. If

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Speaker 3: they're being cut through the joint, this is something somebody

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Speaker 3: would naturally almost stumble across. If you are cutting through

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Speaker 3: a body. Let's say you're trying to cut through the

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Speaker 3: vertebral column and you run into bone. You're going to

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Speaker 3: start moving the knife around, and all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: you find well, though, here's the intervertebral disk. Here's an

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Speaker 3: area where now I can continue to cut without trying

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Speaker 3: to saw through bone. This is where the autopsy the

280
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Speaker 3: pathologists observations. Did the offender remove the fingers by cutting

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Speaker 3: through the joint or where the finger the metacarpals actually

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Speaker 3: cut in half and the joint was left.

283
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Speaker 2: So the pathologist said that this had to have been

284
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Speaker 2: someone that had surgical precision. He believed that it had

285
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Speaker 2: taken in realm of eight hours to dismember both of

286
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Speaker 2: these bodies. I'm not sure how you would know that,

287
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Speaker 2: And as you're talking about expertise and dismembering bodies varies

288
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Speaker 2: from the person.

289
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Speaker 3: No, for sure, you know, at least like with what

290
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Speaker 3: I'm looking at from just this left hand, I mean,

291
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Speaker 3: there's nothing surgical about what's happening here. This looks like

292
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Speaker 3: it was done in haste. There is no efforts to

293
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Speaker 3: try to make it clean. The offender is literally just

294
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Speaker 3: trying to get rid of the identifying areas of the

295
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,640
Speaker 3: fingers and thumb that would have been recorded on a

296
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Speaker 3: ten print card on a fingerprint card back in the day.

297
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Speaker 1: I agree.

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Speaker 2: So one thing they noticed is the packaging. And this

299
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Speaker 2: is why I think this person's sloppy. The packaging that

300
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 2: they used, besides clothing and sheets that presumably belong to

301
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Speaker 2: someone and could be identifiable. I don't know if this

302
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 2: is someone who went to a store and bought these things,

303
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,840
Speaker 2: but that seems risky. But on top of that, this

304
00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,760
Speaker 2: is what happened. The killer included in these packages. Newspaper

305
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,080
Speaker 2: was one of the coverings, and in one of the

306
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 2: newspapers there was a special insert that was only distributed

307
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,960
Speaker 2: to newspapers in Lancaster District in England.

308
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Speaker 4: Oh so, how far away is that from where the

309
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Speaker 4: bodies are found.

310
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Speaker 2: Moffatt, Scotland is about one hundred miles from the Lancaster

311
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Speaker 2: District in England.

312
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Speaker 1: This is a long way for somebody to travel.

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Speaker 4: In nineteen thirty five.

314
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, so you know of course, the assumption is is

315
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,320
Speaker 3: that this newspaper, it's distributed in a very select area.

316
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Speaker 3: You know, of course that newspaper could end up anywhere,

317
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,000
Speaker 3: but making the assumption that the offender got access from

318
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Speaker 3: the newspaper in the region in which it was distributed.

319
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Speaker 3: Now the offender is taking human remains from two bodies, again,

320
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Speaker 3: probably at least a couple hundred pounds worth the human

321
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Speaker 3: remains one hundred miles to dispose of them.

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Speaker 4: This is effort. It takes time in nineteen thirty five, and.

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Speaker 2: It's just so bizarre to me because the amount of

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Speaker 2: effort you're right to dismember in this fashion, to transport

325
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Speaker 2: and then to be sloppy. So detectives then go to Lancaster,

326
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Speaker 2: of course and start asking around, and they find out

327
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Speaker 2: there are two missing people. One is a woman named

328
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Speaker 2: Mary Rogerson and she's a nurse, a private nurse. She's

329
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Speaker 2: been working as a housekeeper in the home of a

330
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Speaker 2: doctor named Buck Ruxton, and we'll learn a little bit

331
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Speaker 2: more about Buck Ruxton a little bit. And at the

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Speaker 2: same time, doctor Ruxton's common law wife Isabella, has been

333
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Speaker 2: missing too. So they have been these two women, one

334
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Speaker 2: who works in the house. So the nurse worked in

335
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,600
Speaker 2: the house and the other one who is the head

336
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,680
Speaker 2: of the house, the female head of the house, have

337
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,479
Speaker 2: been missing since September fourteenth, fifteen days before these bodies

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00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:46,960
Speaker 2: were found.

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Speaker 4: Who's reporting them missing?

340
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,399
Speaker 1: Family members? Honestly, it's the nurse.

341
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Speaker 2: Mary Rogerson's family was alarmed at first, and then Isabella's

342
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 2: family of course piped up also, but it's the nurse's

343
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Speaker 2: family that speaks out first.

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00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,200
Speaker 3: So Buck Ruxton, who's the husband of Isabella, right, h

345
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,399
Speaker 3: He's not the one reporting Isabella missing.

346
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Speaker 2: No, the friends just said we haven't seen her around

347
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Speaker 2: for a while, and he says, you know, she travels,

348
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Speaker 2: so I don't see her. What's interesting is is still

349
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,159
Speaker 2: we are left with two bodies who are difficult to

350
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 2: identify because of what was done as a forensic countermeasure

351
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,400
Speaker 2: of whoever the killer is did to try to hide

352
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Speaker 2: their identities.

353
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Speaker 3: Well in nineteen thirty five. To really identify these bodies,

354
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,680
Speaker 3: it's either going to be based on visual recognition looking

355
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 3: at the person's face or distinguishing features of their body

356
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 3: let's say attacked to or scars or you know, size, shape,

357
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 3: et cetera. But also fingerprints and the offender has taken

358
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Speaker 3: time to remove the fingers I'm assuming off of both bodies.

359
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:52,639
Speaker 1: Yes, right, absolutely.

360
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,240
Speaker 3: And were these fingertips recovered in any of the packaging with.

361
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:58,400
Speaker 4: The rest of the remains.

362
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:03,359
Speaker 3: Nope, So that's the one thing the offender did place elsewhere. Yeah,

363
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 3: the one identifying feature from nineteen thirty five, the fingertips.

364
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,119
Speaker 4: God not with the primary body parts. Okay.

365
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,040
Speaker 2: Now, the way that they identify and connect because spoiler alert,

366
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,480
Speaker 2: we do believe that this is Mary Rogerson and Isabella Ruxton.

367
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 1: The things that they use to identify.

368
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,679
Speaker 2: Them, I think are unreliable, but you could tell me

369
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 2: what you think. They contact Mary Rogerson's mother, who was

370
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 2: the one that sounded the alarm on this to begin with,

371
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,919
Speaker 2: and they wanted a thorough description of her daughter. The

372
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 2: mother is able to identify part of a blouse that

373
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,800
Speaker 2: was recovered in the stream, one of the things that

374
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 2: the killer used to wrap up the body parts, and

375
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 2: the reason she's able to identify it is that there

376
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 2: is a custom made patch that she herself sewed on

377
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,560
Speaker 2: that shirt. So she said, this is clothing that belongs

378
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 2: to my daughter, and I recognize other clothing that belonged

379
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:55,920
Speaker 2: to her.

380
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: Boss Isabella Ruxton. Is that reliable.

381
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:01,000
Speaker 4: No, but it's a clue.

382
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 1: Okay.

383
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 3: At least you have a witness who's able to articulate items,

384
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 3: so you know, from an investigative standpoint, you're going, okay,

385
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 3: we're on the right track here. Now to actually identify

386
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 3: the human remains as Mary and Isabella, you know there

387
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 3: needs to be more done. Clothing items, et cetera could

388
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 3: absolutely be taken from them and then placed on other

389
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 3: people's body parts, So you really have to when you

390
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 3: say I have identified the person, you have to identify

391
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 3: the physical aspects of that body and not the associative

392
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 3: items that could be found with the body.

393
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,119
Speaker 2: Now here's the other sketchy forensics, and I'm going to

394
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 2: need you to tell me if I'm overreacting or not.

395
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,639
Speaker 2: Back in Scotland, there's a pathologist named John Glaister, and

396
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 2: he was in charge of analyzing the scene, analyzing the bodies.

397
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 2: He takes one of the skulls found in the stream

398
00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 2: and he takes a picture of it, develops it, and

399
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: then he super imposes a photograph of Isabella Ruxton on

400
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,360
Speaker 2: top of it. So I see you nodding your head,

401
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 2: which is good because I'm going to show you the photo. Okay,

402
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 2: So with the photos laid on top of one another,

403
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: it's easy to compare the respective features.

404
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 1: And I need you to help me figure.

405
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 2: Out if this is enough evidence to say this is

406
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 2: conclusively Isabella Ruxton.

407
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 1: So here is what they did.

408
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 2: You see her photo and then you see the skull

409
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 2: that they cleaned out, and they laid the photo on

410
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 2: top of the photo of the skull.

411
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: What do you think?

412
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 3: Well, okay, so there's a couple things going on here

413
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 3: that I would have some concerns about.

414
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:39,160
Speaker 4: Part of what I.

415
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,400
Speaker 3: Am not seeing is the use of a scale in

416
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 3: the photographs. You have a photograph of the skull, I'd

417
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,719
Speaker 3: want to see a scale in that photograph. And then

418
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 3: the hard part, of course, is is this living photo

419
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,120
Speaker 3: of the victim.

420
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 4: You're not going to have a scale, so you can.

421
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 3: Ensure that the comparison everything is to scale to the

422
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 3: actual size of the two different images. So the concern

423
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,880
Speaker 3: would be is how much manipulation of these images were

424
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 3: done in terms of size in order to make things fit.

425
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 2: So they could have retrofit this right to fit their

426
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: theory of what happened.

427
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 3: And that's the concern, you know, the one thing that

428
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 3: I will say, you know, because taking a look at

429
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 3: sort of the anthropological aspects, I am seeing that at

430
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 3: least the skull is within the range of proportions of

431
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 3: the victim's facial features and head features, so it's not

432
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 3: like there's an outrageous difference. However, there's no way this

433
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 3: could be considered an identification, especially today. It's just okay,

434
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 3: it's within the range, so you can't eliminate that this

435
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: skull is not from this victim.

436
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 4: But more work needs to be done.

437
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,640
Speaker 2: I agree, and I think you're right. This is an

438
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: imperfect science, but this is it. This is the only

439
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 2: way they have to identify who these two people are.

440
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 2: Except one more thing, and it's about the timeline. They

441
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 2: want to put together a timeline so they know that

442
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: Isabella and Mary have gone missing since two weeks before

443
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: these body parts were found. So we have a pathologist

444
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 2: who looks at samples and sends it to the University

445
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 2: of Edinburgh because there are bugs on the samples, so

446
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 2: they've been in there, we presume for a while. So

447
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: there's an entomologist who studies the infestation of maggots in

448
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 2: the remains. He determines that the maggots are twelve to

449
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 2: fourteen days old at the time of their collection, and

450
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 2: they were born from eggs that were laid in the

451
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 2: stream by blowflies. And I know from American Sherlock that

452
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: generally blowflies arrive to a body first, and then there's

453
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 2: a list of bugs that usually come in a certain order,

454
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 2: and that's how we are able to work with this.

455
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: So the entomologist says that the remains have been in

456
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: the ravine conclusively. He believes between twelve and fourteen days,

457
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: which fits the timeline of when Isabella and Mary went missing.

458
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 1: Is this reliable?

459
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 4: Yes.

460
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 3: Insects are the best form of evidence to determine time

461
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: of death under such circumstances. Here you have an entomologist

462
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 3: who's studied the developmental stages of the larva of these blowflies,

463
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 3: and there is variance based on the weather conditions. Is

464
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 3: it hot, is it cold, how humid it is, But

465
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 3: they generally are able to take a mega determine the

466
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 3: know what type of fly that meg it belongs to

467
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 3: and how based on the morphology the physical characteristics of

468
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 3: the mego, how old that mego is indicating. Okay, now

469
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 3: that mego has been alive for in this case twelve

470
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 3: to fourteen days. So it narrows the window. It's never

471
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 3: going even today, it's never you know, down to the minute,

472
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 3: but it gives a window that has shown to be

473
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 3: very reliable. The older the remains are the bigger the window.

474
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 3: But I would say even in nineteen thirty five, you

475
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 3: know they had done so much work studying insects and

476
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 3: you know the developmental stages that if you have a

477
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 3: true expert, which it sounds like the sentomologists from Edinburgh,

478
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: I'm confident that yes, you are dealing with remains that

479
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: if he's saying these are blowflies that are indigenous to

480
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 3: where this stream is where the body parts are found,

481
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 3: and they're twelve to fourteen days, and that would tell me, okay,

482
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 3: you had dead human remains that we're there for approximately

483
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 3: two weeks. I have confidence in that for sure.

484
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so is this enough for you to let's just

485
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: say we're going to look at the husband. Now we

486
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 2: have two missing people. It seems like a big coincidence.

487
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: Without conclusive DNA analysis and fingerprints, do we feel fairly

488
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 2: confident that's time to focus in on the husband because

489
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: we're presuming it's these two women.

490
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 3: I think it's perfectly there is sufficient information to be

491
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 3: able to say that you think these human remains are

492
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: these two victims, and most certainly the husband, Buck Ruxton

493
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: needs to be interviewed about what he remembers two weeks

494
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 3: ago when these two women reportedly went missing, get his

495
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 3: statement locked in, and then you're proceeding with the investigation.

496
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: They have not sufficiently identified these human remains, in my opinion,

497
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 3: but I believe the circumstances strongly point that these human

498
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: remains are from Mary Anne Isabella. And now they are

499
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 3: on the right track in terms of at least starting

500
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 3: with the one person that both victims knew, and knew well.

501
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: Okay, forensics at buck Ruxton's house. Now they're able to

502
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: say we think that this man did it. They start investigating,

503
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: and of course they interview him and you can imagine

504
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: Buck Ruxton, just for context, and I'll give you a

505
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 2: little bit more of this later, is a very well

506
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: respected physician. He was born in India. He came to

507
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom, was schooled there and very well respected

508
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: in the community. He and Isabella were very social. They

509
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: seemed to have on the outside of good marriage. When

510
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 2: he is interviewed, he says, I have no idea where

511
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 2: they went. Isabella has been in and out. I am

512
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: not worried about her, and I have no control over Mary,

513
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 2: so I don't know. I have no idea what happened.

514
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: And he has three children to worry about. So he

515
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: has been concerned, but not concerned enough, which is why

516
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: he never filed a police report. But Mary Rogerson's mother

517
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: filed one for her.

518
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 3: Sure, So now investigators are locking him into a statement,

519
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: you know, and he's denying any knowledge of what happened

520
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 3: to them. So this is where we're going to kind

521
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 3: of bifurcate the theory as to what happened to these

522
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 3: two women. Maybe Mary and Isabella they went out shopping

523
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 3: together and were abducted and killed by somebody, or you

524
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 3: have the husband who ends up killing both of them

525
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 3: and disposing of their remains. So here's the two competing

526
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 3: theories that I am now going to be contemplating as

527
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 3: I get more information, as you tell me more information.

528
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: Because it's very reasonable to think that those two women

529
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: were out and about or at the home at the

530
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: same time.

531
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: If there was a home invasion. There are a myriad.

532
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: Of other explanations other than this well respected physician who

533
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: they are apprehensive about charging to begin with. So let's

534
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: move on to some forensics at the house. If we

535
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: are saying in theory that these women were killed at

536
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: the house or dismembered of the house, there are a

537
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: couple of things that I think are interesting that.

538
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: Police really home in on.

539
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: One is, thirteen days before the discovery of the body parts,

540
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: Buck Ruxton was seen with a cut finger, which he's

541
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 2: a doctor, and I just cut my finger yesterday. So

542
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: is that really something that's in any way concrete evidence.

543
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 3: No, not at all. That's just normal living. I'm constantly bleeding.

544
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 4: You know.

545
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a DIY guy, you know, and so I'm

546
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 3: constantly doing things around my house and cutting myself, burning myself.

547
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 3: I'm physically active, and you know, whether I'm out mountain

548
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 3: biking or working out in the gym, there's reasons for

549
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 3: me to have different types of injuries that have nothing

550
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: to do with homicide. A cut finger does not alert

551
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: me to anything suspicious about doctor Ruxton. But if I

552
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: think he's prime suspect, I would be alerted to the

553
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: fact that, well, if this occurred during the commission of

554
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: the crime. Then there's the possible to you that his

555
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 3: blood would be present at the scene on the victims' bodies.

556
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: And they could do blood typing in nineteen thirty five,

557
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: which we know is limited. Of course, it's not as

558
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: good as DNA analysis. But if Isabella and Mary and

559
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: Buck had different blood types, is that at all helpful?

560
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: It's you know, with the ABO system, that's one way

561
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 3: to separate out that you have different bleeders that are

562
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: contributing to blood that is present at the scene.

563
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 4: But it's not very discriminating.

564
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: You know, if Buck Roxton, let's say, is a blood

565
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 3: type A, well, that's roughly fifty percent of the population

566
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 3: that has that blood type. So all it does is

567
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 3: it helps sort out the evidence people have been convicted

568
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: on ABO typing, but it doesn't have the discriminating power

569
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 3: that you know, modern DNA technology has obviously.

570
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: Right now, to me, it sounds like he could be

571
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: railroaded a little bit. We're going to see he would

572
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: be the obvious suspect if you've got two women from

573
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: the same house who have on missing. But nothing is

574
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: convincing me just yet that this man is responsible.

575
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 3: No, And this is where it's so critical. You know,

576
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 3: I keep going back to these initial statements locking him in.

577
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 3: You have to do a thorough interview. And it's not

578
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: only his memories of what was going on with Mary

579
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: and Isabella the last time he saw them, when he

580
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: saw them, but it's also establishing where he has been,

581
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 3: you know, since these two women went missing, and you

582
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 3: want to lock him into those statements, and if he

583
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 3: is saying, well, I was at a store on this

584
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 3: state or I was at work, then you have to

585
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 3: follow through and interview witnesses to corroborate or refute his statements.

586
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 4: But fundamentally, now, if we have a.

587
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 3: Theory that doctor Ruxton is possibly responsible for the homicide

588
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: and dismemberment of these two women, where would he possibly

589
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: have done these acts. Would it be at his house,

590
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 3: would it be at his workplace? Does he have another location?

591
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 3: Investigators need to be drilling down on those potential locations.

592
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: And then now I think they're sufficient probable cause, you know,

593
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 3: here in the United States, you know to get warrants

594
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 3: in order to be able to go in and do

595
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 3: a crime scene search to see is there any evidence

596
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: that any locations that's under the control of Ruxton to

597
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: indicate that you know homicide and body dismemberment had occurred

598
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 3: at one of these locations.

599
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: Well, you hit the nail on the head.

600
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: And that was an excellent transition because they've placed Ruxton

601
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: at this point under arrest, and they go and search

602
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: the house and they find some things that he can't

603
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: explain away. There are little bits of blood in different

604
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: areas of the house that they see at first. Preliminarily,

605
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: they walk in, they see blood, and he says, I

606
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: cut my finger on a can of vegetables. I already

607
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: had told you I had a cut finger. That's not

608
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: hard evidence. Here's the issue. Things get much more serious

609
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: forensically for him. So there was a housekeeper who came

610
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: in and out who's said that she reported smelling foul

611
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: odors from the property. Now you and I have both

612
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 2: smell dead bodies. It's a pretty distinctive smell. I'm not

613
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 2: sure if a lay person would be able to distinguish

614
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: the smell of a dead body from maybe a dog

615
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 2: who had recently died.

616
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 4: What do you think, basically humans when they die? When

617
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 4: we die? Yes, I am human too, right?

618
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: You know, during the decompositional process, we have the same

619
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 3: odor as if you were to be out, like when

620
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 3: I go trail running, you know, and there's a dead

621
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,719
Speaker 3: deer that's decomposing, it's the same type of smell. Us

622
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: humans don't have the ability to differentiate that smell whether

623
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 3: it's you know, some carrying out in the field or

624
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 3: it's an actual dead human body. They smell the same

625
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 3: to me, and it is a very distinctive odor. In fact,

626
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 3: you know, one of the primary chemicals that contributes to

627
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: the smell of death is called putrecine. It's a very

628
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 3: descriptive name, you know, putrin, right, putresine. And then there's

629
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 3: other chemicals that also have been identified as part of

630
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: you know, this decompositional gases that are released and their

631
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 3: sulfur containing and sulfur is a very pungent type of element,

632
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 3: you know, really contributes like the rotten egg smell. That's

633
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 3: a high sulfur content in that molecule as well.

634
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: Pollution.

635
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: That's what you smell during a smog, is that sort

636
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: of smell. It's disgusting. Yeah, So things get worse for him.

637
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: They rip up the carpet and find several bloodstains throughout

638
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: the house soaked into the carpet and then you mentioned

639
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: the location for the dismemberment.

640
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: This is what they theorize.

641
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: They looked at the home's bathtub and they took a

642
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: very close look and they determined that there was blood

643
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: in the bathtub. So they theorized that he dismembered each

644
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 2: woman in the bathtub and then the blood went right

645
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 2: down on the drain. They did not use luminol because

646
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: luminol would not be widely used for another decade. So

647
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: I assume they just did what like an ABO test,

648
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: They scraped it off, and what would they do?

649
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 3: Do you think they had access to a variety of

650
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 3: different presumptive blood tests that are color tests, and we

651
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 3: use these very tests today and there's a variety orthotolidine, lucamlachite.

652
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 4: Green, benzodine.

653
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 3: These are reagents that when blood is mixed with them,

654
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 3: they change color.

655
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 4: It's a catalytic reaction.

656
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 3: It's the Heme group of the blood causes this oxidative process.

657
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 3: It's usually a two step process with hydrogen peroxide being

658
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 3: the second chemical added, but in essence you now have

659
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 3: this reaction where these agents go from typically colorless to

660
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 3: bright pink or bright green. They're very very sensitive, but

661
00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 3: not entirely specific. Other chemicals will cause the same action.

662
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: But if I see a red state that looks like blood,

663
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 3: I test it with this presumptive blood test. You know,

664
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 3: I walk away going I believe that is a blood state.

665
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 3: And then, of course modern technology, we follow that up

666
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 3: with human DNA testing.

667
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: So the detectives determine that these two women were killed

668
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 2: in the house, blood soaked through into the floorboards, beneath

669
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: a carpet, and then he carried each one both of

670
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: them to the bathtub and spent an awful lot of

671
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 2: time dismembering them. How much do you at this point

672
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: care about motive? Does motive matter to you in these cases?

673
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: Because I think it matters to juries, doesn't it?

674
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 3: It matters. But you don't have to prove motive to

675
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 3: prove murder. You know, there is nothing about the criminal

676
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 3: offense of murder that indicates that motive has to be

677
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: part of what is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Motive

678
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 3: is something that you pay attention to, but especially in

679
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 3: the cases that I typically work, you know, the serial

680
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 3: predator cases. The underlying motive besides the fact that this

681
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 3: is a sexual fantasy that the offender is carrying out,

682
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 3: But what is causing this person to do it?

683
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 4: I don't care.

684
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: So motive is something that can be added to the

685
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 3: circumstantial aspects to say, yes, this case is getting stronger.

686
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 3: And let's say, doctor, I mean this is sounding like

687
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 3: doctor Rugson, who I'm assuming is he's got control over

688
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 3: his house. He's made statements that he was at his

689
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 3: house during the time that these victims went missing. The

690
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: amount of blood that's being found and the carpeting sounds

691
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 3: consistent with blood pools, like the victims had received significant

692
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 3: injuries and now significant blood loss inside the house where

693
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: you go, Yes, this is consistent with like a homicide

694
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 3: scene versus somebody.

695
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 4: Who's menstruating or a cut finger.

696
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 3: Like Ruxton is saying, he needs to be confronted about

697
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 3: what happened and then why it happened. Again, it's get

698
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 3: the statements and then those statements sent up to the

699
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 3: prosecutor and get put in front of the jury to

700
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: assess whether or not they believe what he is saying.

701
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: Well, Ruxton denies all of it.

702
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: He says he and Isabella had a wonderful marriage, and

703
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 2: of course he had no problems with Mary, who was

704
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: in the household at the time. He is pretty unshakable

705
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: even when he's under arrest. But he does go to

706
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 2: trial in nineteen thirty six for the murders of both

707
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: of them. So, as I said, Ruxton says great marriage.

708
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: Isabella's family and friends disagree greatly. They said that on

709
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: the outside, you know, Ruxton is this incredible physician that

710
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 2: people in Lancaster really depended on. And he was a

711
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: real inspirational story because he came from India and he

712
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,280
Speaker 2: came to the UK and had just a great education

713
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: and was very successful. He was very, very controlling. So

714
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: this is going to be a narrative. This is what

715
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: I mean things repeat. This is an eighty year old story.

716
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 2: At this point. He was intensely controlling. He was very abusive.

717
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 2: He beat Isabella often and always accused her of having

718
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: extramarital affairs, micro managed her spending, He flew off the

719
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 2: handle if she was friendly to anybody. They had three kids,

720
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: just someone who was intensely jealous, and it sounds like

721
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 2: this is what I want you to comment on.

722
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: It sounds like paranoid.

723
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: On top of that, he said that she was poisoning

724
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: his coffee and to make her atone for that offense

725
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: of trying to kill him. He says he would just

726
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 2: punish her, like having her run up and down the

727
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 2: stairs at knife point, saying I'm going to kill you

728
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 2: if she didn't run up and down the stairs for

729
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 2: a certain amount of time. So this is an incredible

730
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: Once the police do the research and find out that

731
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: there were domestic violence reports made, this becomes the motive,

732
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 2: which I think is someone a layperson sitting on a jury.

733
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: I think is a compelling narrative because doesn't a prosecutor

734
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: want to be able to lay this out and say,

735
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 2: this is what we think happened, and can't you just

736
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 2: see why this physician who's so well respected, can't we

737
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: now see how he could have done something so terrible?

738
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 4: No?

739
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 3: Well, absolutely, this has all the hallmarks of amestic abuser.

740
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 3: You know, you've got the course of control. He is

741
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 3: manipulating Isabella, he is punishing Isabella. He's making her feel

742
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: that she can't be anywhere without having to look over

743
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 3: her shoulder because he's watching her, he's following her. The

744
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 3: level of physical abuse, this is a tremendous predictor that

745
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: this type of abuser is going to escalate. This is

746
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 3: a very very dangerous situation for a woman like Isabella

747
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 3: to be in, and she probably didn't recognize how far

748
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 3: he would be willing to go. But everything about what

749
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 3: you just described that Ruxton was doing to his wife,

750
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 3: this in totality is absolute predictor that this is somebody

751
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 3: who could potentially be capable of killing this woman that

752
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 3: he's in a relationship with.

753
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,959
Speaker 2: I agree, and I think this it's important to try

754
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 2: to complete the picture if you can, because it can

755
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: be very difficult to see someone who is charming and handsome,

756
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 2: and Ruxton was handsome and well educated and ambitious, and

757
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: while on the outside seems very put together, it's so

758
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: hard to imagine that somebody could do that when you

759
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 2: are not you, and I who know anybody is capable

760
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: of doing that. I think just with the layperson, they

761
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 2: just have to hear something. So here's the theory, and

762
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: it makes sense to me that something triggered him. He

763
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 2: went into a jealous rage and Mary Rogerson was collateral damage.

764
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 4: She was a witness, and that makes sense to me.

765
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: You know, his primary intended target, whether it be in

766
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 3: a fit of rage or he just decided he had

767
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 3: enough with being in a marriage with Isabella, but she

768
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: was the primary victim, and so the poor housekeeper was

769
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 3: likely in the house when the initial violence was put

770
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 3: on Isabella, or the housekeeper had witnessed over time all

771
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 3: the abuse that was going on by the husband to

772
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 3: his wife, and he decided she also needed to removed

773
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 3: to be executed.

774
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: So he is not surprisingly convicted, still proclaiming his innocence.

775
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: He is sentenced to death because that would be the

776
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: typical sentence. In nineteen thirty six, he is executed and

777
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: hanging in May, but right before he is hanged, he

778
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: does confess. Oh, and he says it happened exactly the

779
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 2: way the police said it did. He was triggered by

780
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: some interaction she had that I'm sure was innocent with

781
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: another man, and Mary Rogerson was there and he had

782
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: to take care of both of them.

783
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: Okay, full confession and then he's hanged. So what does that.

784
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: Mean when they confess before hanging. What does that mean?

785
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 2: Is that atonement?

786
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 4: Is that?

787
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: What is it?

788
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 3: Well, you could almost see that, depending on his particular

789
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,479
Speaker 3: let's say, religious faith, that this may be a way

790
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 3: to confess his sins, even though it's now damaging his reputation.

791
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 3: You know, before being convicted, he's trying to preserve his life,

792
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 3: is right to freedom, and is going to deny, deny,

793
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 3: But once you know, he's walking through the gallows.

794
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 4: Now, maybe his religious.

795
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 3: Philosophy as such, where it's like, I need to atone

796
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 3: for my sins because I'm about to meet my maker.

797
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: When he receives his death sentence, he thanks the judge

798
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: and the jury for giving him a fair trial.

799
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: He salutes the courtroom.

800
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 2: It sounds like what you said, he's sort of just

801
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: accepted that this is what's.

802
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: Going to happen, and then he's hanged.

803
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 2: This was a very important case for you know, forensic entomology,

804
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 2: putting it on the map. This was an important case

805
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: for identifying matching a skull with a photo. Regardless of

806
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: what you and I think, it was a technique that

807
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 2: people used in the future.

808
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 3: No, you know, most certainly, and part of when we

809
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 3: get into the anthropology aspects of identifying bodies.

810
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 4: You know, that's something that has evolved over.

811
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 3: Time, and it really kind of hit a crescendo, if

812
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 3: you I would say, in the nineteen nineties, right before

813
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 3: DNA came in, where we were relying really heavy on

814
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: anthropologists to help identify the bodies, and they're very highly skilled,

815
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 3: you know, relative to what I'm sure was being done

816
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 3: back in nineteen thirty five. And there's a lot of

817
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: value that anthropologists bring to the table in terms of

818
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 3: assessing what happened. You know, they augment what the pathologist

819
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 3: finds at autopsy because the anthropologists.

820
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 4: Have a different expertise.

821
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 3: But now the identification of human remains is generally going

822
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 3: to be you know, we still pay attention to physical characteristics,

823
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 3: you know, whether it be dental aspects, scars, tattoos, all

824
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 3: of that is recorded. But if we have a DNA

825
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 3: sample that's reliable from the deceased, you know, let's say,

826
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 3: as an example, maybe somebody had been pulled over for

827
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 3: a DUI and gave a blood sample and that's in

828
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 3: police storage. Then now we have a dead body and

829
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 3: we think it's that person. Okay, Now we have a

830
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 3: reliable DNA S sample that we can use to compare

831
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 3: and typically we would be trying to do DNA today

832
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 3: just about on anything, and it lessens the requirement to

833
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 3: base the identification on physical characteristics. I am kind of

834
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 3: curious though, in Ruxton's confession, did he describe how he

835
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: dismembered these two women.

836
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: No, he didn't talk about whether it was a saw

837
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: or what he ended up using. They were right though,

838
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 2: that this was somebody with medical knowledge, certainly somebody who

839
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: was meticulous.

840
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, I'd like to see, you know,

841
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 3: the totality of how the dismemberment occurred. It sounds like

842
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: it was done to the extreme. But I've worked a

843
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 3: case in which three bodies had been dismembered by the

844
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 3: offenders and were distributed across multiple duffel bags and thrown

845
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 3: in the Sacramento River area, and they went to Great

846
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 3: Lakes to really cut these bodies up, not to the

847
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: extent it sounds like with Ruxton, but these three bodies,

848
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 3: these were absolutely mutilated. But we were able to identify

849
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 3: all three victims very easily.

850
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: Well.

851
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: One thing about this case from nineteen thirty five that

852
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 2: I will say astounds me is that if he had

853
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: not chosen to use that particular newspaper with the insert

854
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 2: in it to wrap these bodies up, it is unlikely

855
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: that they would have ever identified these people at all,

856
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 2: because this was.

857
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: One hundred miles away.

858
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: Even if they had printed the clothing, it would have

859
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 2: been in the local paper. They would have assumed that

860
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 2: this was a local case, so he could have gotten

861
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 2: away with it, and he just made a mistake.

862
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 3: Not only are you dealing with the distance of one

863
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 3: hundred miles, but their bodies are being deposited in a

864
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 3: different country. Yep, you know, so you have jurisdictional boundaries

865
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 3: that I don't know how closely British and Scottish authorities

866
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 3: worked together back in the day, but I can imagine

867
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,919
Speaker 3: that it probably wasn't a great relationship.

868
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 4: If there was a relationship at all.

869
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would, I wondered. Once they had established that

870
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 2: this happened in England, they obviously kept the body parts

871
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: in Scotland because that's where the pathologist was. So regardless,

872
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 2: this case, I think is fascinating for me because he

873
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 2: could have gotten away with it, He should have gotten

874
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 2: away with it, and he didn't, Thank goodness. But it's

875
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 2: a reminder to me of all the cases that you

876
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 2: and I have to come that throughout history, how many

877
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 2: people number one got away with murder and number two,

878
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 2: how many people ended up in prison for things they

879
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 2: didn't ever do. Sure, and those were prevalent in history

880
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 2: for sure. And we're going to hear about those cases.

881
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I like to point out that this offender

882
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 3: is a very intelligent offender. He's very sophisticated, but he

883
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 3: made mistakes. Yeah, he's not well versed in homicide and

884
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 3: getting away with homicide. And that's what we rely upon

885
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: in law enforcement is those mistakes. No matter how smart

886
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 3: the offender thinks they are, we're hoping they made that

887
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 3: critical mistake of putting the newspaper that could be tracked

888
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 3: back to their geographic area.

889
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: Well, the police in this case did a fantastic job,

890
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 2: thank goodness, quality investigation, and the family at least had

891
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 2: some peace knowing where these two people were because I

892
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 2: can't imagine having a missing family member. So I was

893
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: happy to bring this case to you because your forensic

894
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: knowledge is vast. I learned something every time you and

895
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 2: I talk and I log it away so that I

896
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: can remind you of stuff that you've said, trap you

897
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: about things that you said in the past, so that

898
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,359
Speaker 2: I can quiz you again on it.

899
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: And I can't wait to deliver next week's case. You're

900
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: going to find it so.

901
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 4: Interesting, Okay, Well, I'm looking forward to it.

902
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production.

903
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia

904
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 3: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

905
00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrose.

906
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

907
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

908
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryvogel.

909
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

910
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

911
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

912
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 2: buried Bones pod.

913
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

914
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

915
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

916
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold Cases,

917
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 2: is also available now