1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: On August twenty fifth, twenty seventeen, a man getting a 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: haircut at Tom's barber Shop in Arlington, Virginia saw something 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: strange outside in the parking lot. A man in a 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 2: short sleeve, collared shirt and a black tie was setting 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: up a small wreath on the sidewalk next to a 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 2: trash can. When this makeshift memorial was situated to his liking, 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 2: the man called his audience to attention. His brief remarks 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: were heard only by the assembly of six of his 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 2: fellow neo Nazis, one of whom was holding a comically 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 2: large Nazi flag. They held their right arms out in 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: a stiff armed Nazi salute as he bowed his head 13 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: for eighty eight seconds of silent reflection. This wasn't the 14 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: first time that a man in the barber's chair at 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: Tom's barber Shop had glanced up to see a Nazi 16 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: in the parking lot. As the man getting his haircut 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: walked over to the window to snap the only photograph 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 2: of this gathering, it was fifty years to the minute 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: since a barber at that same shop ran outside to 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: find George Lincoln Rockwell lying in a pool of his 21 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: own blood. This tiny gathering of white haired men in 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: short sleeved shirts had returned to the very spot where 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 2: the commander of the American Nazi Party had been murdered. 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 2: They were there to pay their respects. The men in 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: the parking lot in twenty seventeen weren't members of the 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: American Nazi Party, not anymore anyway, No one was. It 27 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: didn't exist anymore. But the man being saluted next to 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 2: that trash can was the leader of what it became 29 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 2: after another attempt at rebranding in the nineteen eighties, a 30 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: group called the New Order. And the man leading that 31 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: tiny band of Nazis in the parking lot twenty seventeen 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: was Martin Kerr, a gray haired man in his sixties. 33 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: He joined the American Nazi Party in high school after 34 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: reading an interview with George Lincoln Rockwell published in Playboy magazine, 35 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: but he was still a teenager when his hero died. 36 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: The remnants of the American Nazi Party were forced to 37 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 2: relocate to the Midwest decades ago, but this memorial service 38 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: in Virginia wasn't a great inconvenience for them. Their group 39 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: was already in the area in August of twenty seventeen. 40 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: Just two weekends earlier, they'd made an appearance at the 41 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: Unite the Right rally in nearby Charlottesville. That man in 42 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: the parking lot, the man who keeps George Lincoln Rockwell's 43 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: ashes in a white urn on an altar, told reporters 44 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 2: that if Rockwell could have seen those Nazis marching in Charlottesville, 45 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: he would have been pleased. On the fiftieth anniversary of 46 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: Rockwell's death, and in the immediate aftermath of a shocking 47 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: and deadly Nazi rally, George Lincoln Rockwall's successor told reporters 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 2: that Rockwell's legacy was more alive now than ever. I 49 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 2: am Molly Conger in This is Weird, Little Guys. On 50 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: the morning of the last day of his life, George 51 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: Lincoln Rockwell was up early. He stripped the sheets from 52 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: his bed and threw a bundle of laundry into the 53 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: back of the blue and white Chevy sedan on the driveway. 54 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 2: He spent most of the morning alone in his room 55 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: with the American Nazi Party barracks, a house he'd nicknamed 56 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: Hatemonger Hill. Several party members were downstairs making final preparations 57 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 2: for that afternoon's excursion into Washington, d C. After month 58 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: of internal struggle over the party's rebranding, the first issue 59 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: of a newspaper called White Power was hot off the presses, 60 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: and the Nazis storm troopers were going to try and 61 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: stir up some publicity by handing it out to the 62 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: National press outside the halls of Congress. All press is 63 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: good press, I guess, and the stunt was an effort 64 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: to generate interest in Rockwell's newest book, also called White Power. 65 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: But Rockwell had no plans to join his men on 66 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 2: the trip to DC that day. Perhaps he was anxious 67 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 2: to avoid another disorderly conduct arrest given his ongoing legal 68 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: troubles in Chicago. Maybe he was looking forward to an 69 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 2: opportunity to have the house to himself, to spend a 70 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: few quiet hours privately grieving the infant daughter he'd just 71 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,799 Speaker 2: buried a few days earlier. Or maybe he'd just wanted 72 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: to do his laundry. He certainly didn't expect to die, 73 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: not on that day in particular. Anyway, A little before now, 74 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 2: he made the short drive down the hill to the 75 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 2: laundromat across the street. He'd already put a load of 76 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: dirty clothes into the machine when he realized he'd forgotten 77 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: something back at the house. If the assassin's aim had 78 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: been better, Rockwell never would have seen it coming. He 79 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: was looking behind him backing out of his parking spot 80 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: when the first shot came through the windshield. This one 81 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: only nicked him. In the instant between the first shot 82 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: and the second one. He probably looked up at the 83 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: rooftop searching for the shooter, and maybe he saw him 84 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: before the second shot pore a hole in his aorda. 85 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 2: His trademark corn cob pipe, the one he'd once poked 86 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: to the face of Martin Luther King Junior, fell from 87 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: his mouth as he crawled across the front seat of 88 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: the sedan, tumbling out the passenger side door onto the ground. 89 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,119 Speaker 2: His still running car rolled slowly away as he bled 90 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: to death there in the parking lot. Inside the laundromat, 91 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: his dirty clothes were still sitting inside the washer, waiting 92 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 2: for George Lincoln Rockwell to return with the bleach. He 93 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: dedicated his life to making the world a wider place, 94 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 2: right up to the end. It was John Patler up 95 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: there on the roof of the Econawash Laundromat in Arlington, Virginia, 96 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: that Friday in August of nineteen sixty seven, John Patler 97 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: murdered George Lincoln Rockwell. That's the official story, and it's 98 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 2: the one I still believe. Piecing together the exact details, though, 99 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: has been a sort of nightmarish Nazi rashamon comparing these 100 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: different versions of the same event as told by too 101 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: many people with their own secrets to keep in what 102 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: has been probably a failed effort to try to sort 103 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: things out. I read the better part of two biographies 104 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: of Rockwell. I read the relevant passages from William Luther 105 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: Pears's biography. I read issues of Nazi newsletters like the 106 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: Rockwell Report, White Power, National Socialist World, National Socialist Observer, 107 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 2: Stormtrooper Magazine, and the World Union of National Socialist Bulletin. 108 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: I read old Stormfront posts. I read pseudonymously published open 109 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: letters by disgruntled neo Nazis. I read grainy old photocopies 110 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: of FBI files and stacks of memos to Jay Edyrhover. 111 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: I read most of the fifteen hundred page, four volume 112 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: appellate record in John Patler's criminal case. He did it, 113 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: but not everybody believes that. 114 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: Are you saying Petla didn't kill Rockwell. 115 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm saying it, and I always have said it. 116 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: That's Frank Smith. Last week I opened the episode with 117 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: the strange tale a shootout in Maine between two men 118 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: on either side of this debate. In nineteen sixty eight, 119 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: Christopher Vidnyevitch drove to Maine and he got into a 120 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 2: gunfight with Frank Smith. Both men were members of the 121 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: American Nazi Party, and both men had testified at John 122 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 2: Patler's trial, Vidnyevitch for the prosecution and Smith for the defense. 123 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: And in March of nineteen sixty eight, a few months 124 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: after that trial ended, Smith believed that Vidnyevitch had been 125 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 2: sent to kill him to keep him from getting to 126 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 2: the truth of what really happened to George Lincoln Rockwell. 127 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 2: And that clip is from an interview Frank Smith gave 128 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: in two thousand and sixteen at the age of ninety five, 129 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: nearly fifty years after Rockwell was killed. He's sticking to 130 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: that story. Listeners with a keen ear might have noticed 131 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: that the man Frank Smith is talking to in that 132 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: interview as a South African accent. And if you've listened 133 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: to every episode of this show. It's a voice you've 134 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: heard before. That is South African neo Nazi Yan Lamprecht. 135 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: At some point earlier this year, during the three months 136 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: I spent writing about white supremacist terrorism in apartheid South Africa, 137 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: I played a portion of an interview Yan Lamprecht did 138 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 2: with the main subject of those episodes, a woman named 139 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: Monica Huggett Stone, and further proving my point that this 140 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 2: show is just one very long story told out of order. 141 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 2: In twenty sixteen, when Lamprecht got interested in the legacy 142 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: of George Lincoln Rockwell, it was Monica Huggett Stone who 143 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: put him in touch with Frank Smith because they know 144 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: each other. 145 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: But I wanted to get people who knew him personally, 146 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: if anyone was still alive. And when Monica said you 147 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: knew him, I thought, wow, that is so lucky. I've 148 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: just got to speak to you. 149 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: It's a small world, I guess. But we'll come back 150 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: to Frank's theories. If you read about John Patler's criminal trial, 151 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 2: you'll almost always see it mentioned that the bulk of 152 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: the evidence against him was circumstantial. And that's true, but 153 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: that word doesn't mean what the average person seems to 154 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: think it means. Circumstantial evidence isn't evidence that is less 155 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: good than its counterpart, direct evidence, although it is often 156 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 2: characterized that way, But in fact, most evidence is circumstantial, 157 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 2: and the most common kind of direct evidence, eyewitness testimony, 158 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: is shockingly unreliable. Imagine for a moment that you're a 159 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: juror if you're sitting on a jury in a criminal trial, 160 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: whatever it may be, what kind of evidence would you 161 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: like to see? What sort of evidence would make you 162 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: feel sure? Fingerprints, ballistics, cell phone data showing that a 163 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 2: defendant's phone was hanging off a tower near the crime 164 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 2: scene the night of the crime, some kind of so 165 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 2: called smoking gun, right, that would be ideal. But those 166 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 2: are all circumstantial evidence, because while they may present a fact, right, 167 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: it can be concretely stated that it is a fact 168 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 2: that this is evidence of a defendant's fingerprint on a gun, 169 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 2: or this evidence shows that their cell phone pinged off 170 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 2: this tower at this time. Those are facts, but what 171 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 2: they're being shown to prove is a fact that you 172 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: then have to infer. So you have to draw an 173 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 2: inference based on what is being shown to you. So 174 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 2: when you see circumstantial evidence that a defendant's DNA was 175 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 2: found on an object at the crime scene. You then 176 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: have to infer what that means, and what you could 177 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: infer that it means is that the person whose DNA 178 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: that was was there. In John Patler's case, there was 179 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: eyewitness testimony from people who saw him fleeing the scene. 180 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: But it's true, the strongest evidence in this case was circumstantial. 181 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 2: No one saw the shooter, not in the act anyway. 182 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: The sound of the gunshots in the parking lot brought 183 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,599 Speaker 2: people out of the laundromat and other stores at the 184 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 2: shopping center, but no one actually witnessed the murder. No 185 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: one saw a man fire a gun, and Patler never confessed. 186 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: As far as I can tell, he has always maintained 187 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: his innocence. But the circumstantial evidence really stacks up here. 188 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: Within minutes of arriving on the scene after the shooting, 189 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: officers with the Arlington County Police had a description of 190 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: a man. Several witnesses told officers that when they came 191 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: outside after hearing the gunshots, they saw a man running 192 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 2: away from the shopping center, and within about a half 193 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: an hour of the shooting and a mile away, officers 194 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: saw a man who matched that description. The man was 195 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: wearing the clothes the witnesses had described, and he was 196 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: soaked in sweat, pacing anxiously back and forth at the 197 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: bus stop as he wipes dirt and sweat from his 198 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: face with a towel. Based on those eyewitness accounts and 199 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 2: the fact that the officer already knew who Patler was 200 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: and that he was a member of the American Nazi Party, 201 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: he was taken into custody, but he didn't have a 202 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: gun on him. The officers who arrested him suspected that 203 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 2: if this is their shooter, he must have ditched the 204 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: gun somewhere along his route between the crime scene and 205 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 2: the bus stop, and that route would have taken him 206 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: through a nearby park. So officers searched until nightfall on Friday, 207 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: but it wasn't until Saturday morning that a gun was 208 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 2: found in a creek under a footbridge in the park. 209 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: The gun they found in that creek was a ballistic 210 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: match to the bullet in Rockwell's body, but it was 211 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: also a match to bullets that were dug out of 212 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: a tree at the edge of some property owned by 213 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: Patler's father in law. A witness testified to seeing Patler 214 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: shooting at that particular tree for target practice a month 215 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: before the murder. The serial number on the gun matched 216 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: a sales record for a local gun shop, and the 217 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: owner of the shop testified to the authenticity of records 218 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: showing that he'd sold the weapon to a Missus Robert A. 219 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 2: Lloyd Junior in nineteen six sixty two. Missus Robert A. 220 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: Lloyd Junior had purchased the gun for her son, Robert 221 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 2: Lloyd the Third. Robert Lloyd the Third is a member 222 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: of the American Nazi Party who testified that he'd let 223 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: Patler borrow the gun in nineteen sixty four, and when 224 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 2: he asked for it back, Patler told him it was stolen. 225 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 2: So just to recap what we have so far, people 226 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: who heard the gunshots walked outside to see a man 227 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: lying in a pool of blood and another man running away. 228 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: A man wearing the same outfit and matching those physical 229 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: characteristics described by the witnesses was found half an hour 230 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: later a mile away, soaked in sweat and very anxious. 231 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: The murder weapon was found in a creek under a 232 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: footbridge that he would have crossed on his route between 233 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: the crime scene and where officers encountered him, and the 234 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: last known location of that weapon was in his possession. 235 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: He claims to have lost it years earlier, but he 236 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: was seen using it just a month before the murder. 237 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: When the officers took Patler into custody. He wasn't just 238 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: wet from perspiration. His shoes were soaking wet, and his 239 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: pants were visibly wet from the knees down. Later examination 240 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: of his shoes found roofing tar on the soles. A 241 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: maintenance technician who worked for the property manager of the 242 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: shopping center testified at trial that due to blocked drains, 243 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: there was several inches of standing water on the roof 244 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: that day because of heavy rain the night before, anyone 245 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: who'd been climbing around on the roof that day would 246 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: have gotten very wet. The trial lasted three weeks, and 247 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: jurors were forced to come in on Saturdays to squeeze 248 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: in testimony from nearly one hundred witnesses. After the jury 249 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: was selected on November twenty seventh, each member of the 250 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: jury was driven home by a sheriff's deputy who watched 251 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 2: them while they packed a suitcase. For three weeks, those 252 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 2: jurors were driven to and from a motel by deputies. 253 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: They had no access to newspapers, magazines, radios, or TV. 254 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 2: Any communication with their families had to go through the 255 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 2: Sheriff's office. Now, if I hadn't read this transcript myself, 256 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: I would have trouble believing that a judge would send 257 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 2: a jury into deliberation at eight pm on a Friday night. 258 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: I've never heard of such a thing. That is a 259 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 2: wild choice. I mean, judges have very broad discretion when 260 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: it comes to pretty much anything that goes on in 261 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 2: their courtroom. But from what I've seen, there's a sort 262 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 2: of unspoken understanding that if it's already past last dinner time, 263 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: you should wait until the following morning to send the 264 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 2: jury out. But it was almost Christmas, and these jurors 265 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: had already endured a grueling three weeks of ten hour 266 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 2: days of testimony. So on Friday night they deliberated. They 267 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: deliberated for four hours, returning their verdict just after midnight. 268 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: And in those four hours, they didn't just decide his guilt. 269 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: The law changed a couple of years ago, but until 270 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, jurys in Virginia made sentencing recommendations as well. 271 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: At twelve twelve am, the jury foreman told the court 272 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 2: that John Patler should serve twenty years for the first 273 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 2: degree murder of George Lincoln Rockwell. At trial, his defense 274 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 2: was obviously that he didn't do it. Not only did 275 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: he not do it, he simply could not have done it. 276 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: His wife and father in law testified that he'd spent 277 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 2: the morning running errands with his wife, Alice, and their 278 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 2: two sons, ages one and three. Alice testified that between 279 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: ten am and eleven forty am, she and her husband 280 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: and their two children were in the car together running errands. 281 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: They went to the bank, and the post office and 282 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 2: an office supplies door, and they stopped off at Safeway 283 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: to pick up some chicken for dinner. The couple both 284 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: testified that immediately upon arriving home around a quarter to noon, 285 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 2: they got into an argument over how to appropriately discipline 286 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 2: their three year old son. When John Patler took the stand, 287 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: he said his wife had gotten angry with him after 288 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 2: he quote got a little rough with the toddler, and 289 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 2: after some heated words were exchange, he stormed out of 290 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: the house and was just walking around the neighborhood. To 291 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: calm down. All three of the adults who lived in 292 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: that house testified that it was eleven forty five eleven 293 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 2: fifty something like that for sure when he walked out 294 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 2: of the house, and he didn't take the couple's only car. 295 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: He didn't have a driver's license, although he did know 296 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: how to drive, but he was on foot, and his 297 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 2: defense was that it just wasn't possible for him to 298 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: have walked the three miles from his house to that 299 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: shopping center in the time between when his wife last 300 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: saw him at eleven forty five and when Rockwell was 301 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: shot at noon. And if all of that is true, 302 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 2: I agree he could not have traveled over three miles 303 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 2: on foot in less than fifteen minutes. Obviously, the jury 304 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: was not convinced it was true, but it's hard to 305 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 2: say which part of it they do don't believe. Before 306 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 2: I found and read the transcripts, I thought it was 307 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 2: pretty possible that the entire story was just a fabrication. 308 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: You know. I'd saw these stories in the newspaper about 309 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 2: his wife talking about, well, we were together running errands, 310 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 2: and it's not that hard to believe that his wife 311 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 2: might lie for him. And in nineteen sixty seven. It's 312 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 2: not like there were digital bank records showing timestamped credit 313 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: card transactions or security camera footage from the bank. You 314 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 2: could just say stuff. But the transcript shows that the 315 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 2: defense did put on witnesses who testified to seeing the 316 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: Padlers at the various stops they made that morning on 317 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 2: their errands. A gas station attendant, a bank teller, a 318 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: postal clerk. They all saw the Pallors, but no one 319 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 2: could remember exactly when, and despite his father in law's 320 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: dead certainty by the time he got on the witness 321 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: stand that the couple had arrived home at eleven to 322 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: four on the day of the murder. When detectives first 323 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: spoke to him on the day of the murder, his 324 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: initial statement put that time closer to eleven, which would 325 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 2: leave Patler nearly an hour to travel those three miles, 326 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 2: either by foot or by bus. The other angle hammered 327 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: by the defense at trial was how could Patler have 328 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: even found Rockwell that day? How could he have known 329 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: where the victim would be. For the defense, the argument 330 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: is just he couldn't have known, therefore he did not know. 331 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: Therefore he couldn't have been there and didn't do it 332 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: for members of the movement who aren't satisfied with the 333 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: official story. This is a huge question. Going to the 334 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 2: laundromat at noon on Friday wasn't planned, It wasn't part 335 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: of Rockwell's usual routine. He didn't even usually do his 336 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: own laundry, So how can an assassin have known where 337 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 2: to position himself to take that shot. The idea is 338 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 2: that Patler didn't act alone, that Rockwell's death was part 339 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: of a larger conspiracy, this grand act of betrayal, and 340 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 2: this idea still has some purchase in the movement Nazis 341 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: like Frank Colin, who you might recognize as the guy 342 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: behind the Nazi march that led to the Supreme Court 343 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: case National Socialist Party v. Skokie, Illinois. He believed that 344 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: Patler was involved in some unspecified way, but that he 345 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 2: wasn't the trigger man, and that ultimately he was just 346 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 2: the fall guy. James Mason, the author of Siege, told 347 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: one of Rockwell's biographers that he does think Patler pulled 348 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: the trigger, but only as a pawn in a larger conspiracy, 349 00:23:55,080 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 2: a conspiracy by whom he doesn't say. Carl Allen, the 350 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: leader of a group that had splintered from the Nazi 351 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 2: Party several years before Rockwell's death, was very sure that 352 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 2: Patler was innocent and was himself just another victim of 353 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: this Jewish conspiracy to kill Rockwell. Obviously, it makes perfect 354 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 2: sense that Rockwell's friends would believe that there was some 355 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 2: nebulous Jewish plot to kill their Nazi leader, but they're 356 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 2: always a little thin on the specifics. To this day, though, 357 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 2: there are young men in the white supremacist movement who 358 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 2: don't actually know anything specific about this period of history, 359 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: but they'll tell you with certainty that the Jews did it. 360 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: When it comes to conspiracy theories with named players, the 361 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: theory with a little heft to it, one that does 362 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: make you ask a follow up question. There is a 363 00:24:54,320 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: conspiracy that was much closer to home. This one's pretty straightforward. 364 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: Hatler knew where Rockwell would be because someone told him, 365 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: and the only people who could have told him were 366 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: the people who were home that morning at the Nazi 367 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: party barracks. Rockwell's mistress, Barbara von Getz, believed it. Frank 368 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: Smith believed it until he died in twenty twenty. Robert Surrey, 369 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 2: the head of the American Nazi Party, office in Dallas 370 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 2: used the party's mailing list to send every member a 371 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: copy of a letter he wrote outlining what he believed 372 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: to be the evidence proving it. A twenty eighteen memoir 373 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: by a former member calling himself Leon Dilios also advances 374 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: this theory. Floyd Fleming, George ware Hal Kaiser, all men 375 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 2: whose names I haven't bothered to tell you before, but 376 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: who were high ranking members of the Nazi Party. They 377 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 2: all believed that someone had masterminded this assassination, and pretty 378 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: much all of them were pointing the finger at one man, 379 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 2: Matias Cole. Now, like I said, as far as conspiracy 380 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 2: theories go, at least this one has a sort of 381 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: logic to it. Cole is often described as Rockwell's number 382 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 2: two man, but he wasn't actually officially deputy commander. Rockwell 383 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: had rather pointedly been keeping that position vacant. So even 384 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: though Cole was in every way except title, functioning in 385 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 2: secondest command, he didn't get to call himself that. At 386 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 2: the party's convention in June, Rockwell had extended an offer 387 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 2: of reconciliation to Carl Allen, and it's generally believed that 388 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 2: he intends to name Allan as his successor if he 389 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 2: agreed to return to the party, because he had successfully 390 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: led a splinter group, the White Party for several years 391 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 2: and that was impressive to Rockwell. That final meeting between 392 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: Rockwell and Carl Allen was allegedly scheduled to take place 393 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 2: at the end of August, just a few days after 394 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: Rockwell died, and Rockwell's body was barely cold before Cole 395 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 2: stepped up to take control of the party. One former 396 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: member recounted to Rockwell's biographer a screaming argument between Rockwell 397 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 2: and Cole the night before the murder, and claims that 398 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 2: Rockwell said he was going to expel him from the 399 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 2: party over this ongoing disagreement about whether Rockwell was betraying 400 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 2: Hitler's legacy by ditching the swastika and focusing on a 401 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 2: message of white power rather than aryan superiority. When you're 402 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 2: digging around in this conspiracy muck, you'll often see claims 403 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 2: that no one knew that Rockwell planned to go to 404 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 2: the laundromat that day until just as he was leaving 405 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 2: the house, which really narrows the window of time during 406 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 2: which this conspiracy could have taken place. Right It just 407 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 2: leaves mere minutes for this possible phone call to the 408 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: shooter to have happened. But it turns out Matias Cole 409 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 2: did know, and he'd known for hours because Rockwell's laundry 410 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 2: was already in the back seat of the car when 411 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 2: Cole took the car out that morning to run errands. 412 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 2: So it's intriguing, it's got a little meat to it. 413 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: Matia's coal was unhappy with the direction the party was going, 414 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: and he had been very vocal about that for a year. 415 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 2: Multiple sources reported that Cole was likely to be pushed 416 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 2: out of favor or even out of the party entirely 417 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 2: in the very near future, so he had a lot 418 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 2: to gain if Rockwell died. But if motive is enough evidence, 419 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 2: thousands of people must have shot George Lincoln Rockwell because 420 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 2: a lot of people had a reason to want him dead. 421 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: One of Rockwall's biographers, Frederick Simonelli, interviewed several former members, 422 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: some of whom shared these theories with him, and he 423 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 2: does give those theories some ink in his book, but 424 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 2: he buries an important caveat in the footnotes writing quote. 425 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: While Arlington police and prosecutors were aware of a growing 426 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 2: hostility between Rockwell, and Coal in the months before Rockwell's assassination, 427 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 2: they inexplicably did nothing to pursue that issue. In fairness, however, 428 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 2: it must be kept in mind that the fractious radical 429 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 2: right is fraught with feuds and vendettas, with the interactants 430 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: alternating frequently between ally and enemy. The American Nazi Party 431 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: was no ea exception, and He's right. These Nazi groups 432 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: are always having these little power struggles. Everybody wants to 433 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: be the Hitler, so this kind of feud isn't unique, 434 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 2: and it doesn't even really stand out as a particularly 435 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 2: egregious one. Overall, the theory of some last minute call 436 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 2: from inside the house to John Patler just doesn't work 437 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: for me. First of all, they had someone testify to 438 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 2: phone records from the house that day, and there's no 439 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: mention of any calls in the morning. Is it possible 440 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 2: that Matius Cole made contact with the assassin while he 441 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: was out running errands all morning? I guess so, But 442 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: there's nothing more than insinuation and possibility here. The more 443 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: likely scenario is really boring. No one called John Patler 444 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 2: to alert him to Rockwell's movements. He probably didn't know 445 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: that Rockwell would be at the laundromat. He didn't actually 446 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 2: even need to know that Rockwell would be at the 447 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 2: laundromat to have found him there. It didn't make sense 448 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: to me at first looking at this area on Google 449 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: Maps today, But the streetscape of Arlington, Virginia was very 450 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 2: different in nineteen sixty seven. It was significantly less developed, 451 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 2: and in the sixties, if you were standing outside the 452 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: Nazi Party barracks, you could actually see this shopping center. 453 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 2: It was just down the hill and across the street. 454 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 2: So if Patler had gone to the house looking for Rockwell, 455 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 2: he may have seen him leave, or he could have 456 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 2: actually spotted the car already in the parking lot at 457 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: the shopping center, which he would have had to pass 458 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: if he was going to the house. All of the 459 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: men living at the American Nazi Party Barracks only had 460 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 2: access to a single working vehicle, and it was a 461 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 2: pretty distinctive looking, older blue and white car, So if 462 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: we saw it in the parking lot, No, there's far 463 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: less intrigue in this explanation, but it's a very simple 464 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 2: one that I've never seen addressed in any of these 465 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 2: accusations against coal. Overall, reading that trial transcript. I was 466 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 2: plagued with this particular anxiety that I always feel when 467 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: I'm sitting through a trial in person. It's definitely worse 468 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: in person, because they'll put you in jail if you 469 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 2: shout in a courtroom. But I'm constantly fighting back this 470 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 2: urge to interject. I just want to raise my hand 471 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 2: and ask a question, because they're not asking the questions 472 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 2: I would like answered. Sometimes it's because they can't. Right, 473 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: A trial is meant to answer one question, did this 474 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 2: defendant commit this crime? You can't just go probing around 475 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 2: asking witnesses about anything you want and potentially unrelated matters, 476 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: And sometimes they just don't want to ask those questions. 477 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 2: A prosecutor comes into a trial with a particular theory 478 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: of the case, and they're trying to solicit testimony that 479 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 2: convinces the jury of that particular version of events because 480 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 2: it is legally sound in their mind and likely to 481 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 2: result in a conviction. So anything else, even more complicated 482 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 2: versions of the truth, it just muddies the water and 483 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 2: confuses the jury. So I understand what I'm looking at 484 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: as I read this, but it doesn't mean I have 485 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: to like it. I wish they'd gotten more on the 486 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 2: record about exactly where everyone was at particular moments in 487 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 2: time of days leading up to the shooting and what 488 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: their phone records look like. Not because I think anyone 489 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: called John Paller. I'm just nosy inside the courtroom. Though 490 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,919 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories aren't much use in a criminal appeal. Once 491 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: he was convicted, Patler could only argue that the trial 492 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 2: had been legally flawed in some specific way, and for 493 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: years he did. He appealed his conviction to the Virginia 494 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 2: Court of Appeals and then to the Supreme Court of Virginia. 495 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 2: When both of those courts upheld his conviction, he tried 496 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 2: appealing to the Supreme Court, but they declined to hear 497 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: his case in nineteen seventy two. So after that he 498 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 2: filed a rid of habeas corpus in the Federal Court 499 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: in the Eastern District of Virginia, alleging that several decisions 500 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 2: made by the trial court had violated his constitutional rights 501 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 2: standard fair And when he lost that, he appealed that 502 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 2: decision to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, and he 503 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 2: lost again. So in December of nineteen sixty seven, at 504 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 2: that original trial in Arlington. The jury found him guilty 505 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 2: and sentenced him to twenty years, and at every stage 506 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 2: of this appeals process, every court from Arlington County up 507 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 2: to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals is upholding that 508 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 2: conviction and that sentence. But he really only ever served 509 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 2: about five He was released on bond in February of 510 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight, so about three months after his conviction 511 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 2: when he filed his first criminal appeal, and he remained 512 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 2: out on bond for three years until the Virginia Supreme 513 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 2: Court ultimately upheld the conviction of the end of nineteen seventy, 514 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 2: So he's three courts deep at this point and still guilty, 515 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,479 Speaker 2: and by the fall of nineteen seventy newspaper stories about 516 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 2: Paller usually say he's changed his ways. One story published 517 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 2: shortly before oral argument before the Virginia Supreme Court quoted 518 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: him saying, it seems to shock people that I've changed 519 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 2: from a hater of blacks to a lover of them. 520 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 2: But it's really not all that strange. I finally realized 521 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 2: just how close I am to blacks and browns and 522 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 2: other depressed people. I'm Greek, I have dark eyes, dark hair, 523 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 2: and here in America. That can work against you. You 524 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 2: can grow up like the black to think you just 525 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: don't fit in. That's the reason I became a Nazi. 526 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 2: I hated my name, I hated my nationality, and I 527 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 2: wanted to strike back at my hate. The Nazis seemed 528 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: like a good place to do it. 529 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: It was a. 530 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 2: Special form of suicide. I guess the Nazis were out 531 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 2: to eliminate alien stock. I was out to eliminate my 532 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 2: alien past, so I put on the swastika. But now 533 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 2: I know that all of them, myself too, were sick. 534 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 2: He doesn't have the language quite right, but it was 535 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy But other than that, it sounds fairly genuine. 536 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I hope it was true. It's also the 537 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 2: kind of thing you might say if you're hoping the 538 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 2: State Supreme Court sees it right before they hear oral 539 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 2: argument in your appeal. But I believe people can change. 540 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,959 Speaker 2: In June of nineteen seventy two, he'd been in jail 541 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 2: for over a year and the Supreme Court had declined 542 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 2: to hear his case, and he told the Washington Daily 543 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,359 Speaker 2: News that month that he was a changed man. He's 544 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 2: learning and growing in prison. He just finished reading Charles 545 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 2: Reich's The Greening of America and Jermaine Greer's The Female Eunuch. 546 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: He was learning about feminism and counterculture, the kinds of 547 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 2: things he spent the nineteen sixties trying to destroy. He 548 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 2: told the reporter quote, I was committing a special form 549 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 2: of suicide, trying to eliminate the things I cant hated, 550 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 2: namely me noticed that is an almost identical quote given 551 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 2: to a different reporter two years later. I don't know 552 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 2: if that means it's from the heart or it was rehearsed, 553 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 2: but it's a remarkably self aware assessment, and I think 554 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 2: it's something that is true on some level for many 555 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: of the men he marched within the sixties and their 556 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 2: counterparts today. I want to believe that he believed it, 557 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 2: but you can't know what's in a man's heart. In 558 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four, his wife, Alice, divorced him. He'd been 559 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 2: in prison for four years and it wasn't entirely clear 560 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: when he might get out. One of his sons would 561 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 2: later write that after the age of six or seven, 562 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 2: he didn't see as far for decades, and that sort 563 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 2: of lines up with this timeline. Alice must have stopped 564 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 2: taking the boys to visit sometime around here, and in 565 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four he finally exhausted all possible avenues for appeal. 566 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 2: The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the decision of 567 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 2: the federal court in Virginia that had upheld his conviction 568 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 2: the year prior. But it wasn't all bad news in 569 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four. I mean, his wife left him, and 570 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 2: he has no more appeals, and he hasn't seen his 571 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 2: children in a year. But in the fall of nineteen 572 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 2: seventy four, he was allowed to leave prison during the 573 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 2: day to attend art classes at nearby Radford University, although 574 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 2: it was still just called Radford College at the time. 575 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 2: He attended classes there for an entire school year. It 576 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 2: appears before administrators of the college realized that the school 577 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 2: was participating in the study release program. In August of 578 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five, the Roanoke Times ran the headline College 579 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 2: denies knowing student was assassin, although court records do show 580 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 2: that he didn't actually legally change his name back to 581 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 2: Patzalos until nineteen eighty eight. He'd reverted back to using 582 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 2: his birth name in interviews around nineteen seventy, and he 583 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 2: apparently gave that name when he enrolled at the college. 584 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 2: I guess things were different in the seventies. You could 585 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 2: just tell the registrar a fake name and they wouldn't 586 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 2: notice that your address was prison. At the time the 587 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 2: story broke, officials from the Department of Corrections said that 588 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 2: the study Release program had been operating for years at 589 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 2: state colleges, universities, and community colleges all over Virginia without incident, 590 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 2: and according to the program guidelines, participating schools were notified 591 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 2: about students enrolling through the program, and only people very 592 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 2: close to their parole deay were eligible to participate. Inmates 593 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 2: participating in the program had to meet strict guidelines in 594 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 2: order to qualify, although the paper doesn't say really what 595 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 2: those were, but the administrators at Radford College were adamant. 596 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 2: They said nobody had told them that there was a 597 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 2: murderer taking drawing classes on campus. There was a lot 598 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 2: of publicity around this at the time, and the college 599 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 2: responded to the public embarrassment by announcing that until they 600 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 2: could conduct a thorough review of all of their policies, 601 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 2: they were just going to enact a blanket ban on 602 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:44,240 Speaker 2: all inmates, parolees, and people on probation, and that seems 603 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 2: like a huge overreaction. People on probation and parole are 604 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 2: out in the world, they've served their time, and they've 605 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 2: been released. It seems like a clear cut case of 606 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 2: discrimination to prevent them from attending a state funded school. 607 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,800 Speaker 2: I think the same could be said about banning current 608 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 2: inmates from the Study Release program, but the legal argument 609 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 2: there is different than it was the seventies. But this 610 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 2: put Patler personally in a pretty bad position, not just 611 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 2: because he was getting close to completing his degree, he 612 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 2: was also close to his parole date, but the parole 613 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 2: board had indicated that if he wasn't enrolled in school, 614 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 2: that would count against him in deciding whether or not 615 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 2: he would be released. The ACLU stepped in quickly and 616 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 2: the college backs down. Patler couldn't roll, but he couldn't 617 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 2: live in a dorm. The college would continue to accept 618 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 2: students from the Study Release program, but incarcerated students would 619 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 2: face stiffer regulations. As a parolee, Patler was just bored 620 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 2: from dormitories, but incarcerated students wouldn't be allowed to enter 621 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 2: dormitories or the student center. They were restricted to a 622 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 2: specific dining hall and were banned from participating in extracurricular activities. 623 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 2: But with his enrollment assured, Patler was granted parole and 624 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,439 Speaker 2: he was released from prison in August of nineteen seventy five. 625 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 2: He had served less than five years since he actually 626 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 2: began serving that twenty year sentence. In December of nineteen seventy, 627 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 2: after he lost his appeal, the ACLU announced their intention 628 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 2: to sue the school over Patler's right to live in 629 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 2: a dormitory, but by the end of nineteen seventy five, 630 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 2: a spokesman for the ACLU announced, somewhat cryptically, quote, we 631 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 2: have decided not to pursue it any further. The matter 632 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 2: is closed. In later years, Radford College refused to disclose 633 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,800 Speaker 2: any records or even comment on Patler's time at the school, 634 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 2: and accounts vary as to whether he even enrolled in 635 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 2: the spring semester, but by the summer of nineteen seventy 636 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 2: six he definitely wasn't in school anymore. I think the 637 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 2: ACLU probably dropped their threat to sue because they weren't 638 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,800 Speaker 2: sure Patler would be a good plaintiff. If they couldn't 639 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 2: guarantee he was going to stay enrolled in school. He 640 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 2: has no standing and there's no reason to sue. A 641 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 2: few months after he stopped going to school, he shows 642 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 2: back up in the newspaper. This one knocked me on 643 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 2: my ass. I mean, I'm usually pretty prepared for a 644 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 2: strange twist. I'm literally looking for the stuff that makes 645 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,879 Speaker 2: these guys weird, right, I'm on the hunt for it. 646 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 2: But clicking through newspaper archives is tedious work. 647 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: You know. 648 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 2: You just pick a keyword and then you click through 649 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 2: hundreds of pages of possible matches. Chronologically. A lot of 650 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,319 Speaker 2: the results are just the same story. They got picked 651 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 2: up by twenty different newspapers. But nothing could have prepared 652 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,800 Speaker 2: me for the whiplash I experienced when I'm just halfheartedly 653 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 2: clicking through mountains of wire stories I've already read, and 654 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 2: suddenly I'm confronted with the headline Rockwell killer arrested after 655 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 2: alleged orgy. Pardon me, arrested where and doing? 656 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: What? 657 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 2: You heard me? Rockwell killer arrested after alleged orgy. The 658 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,279 Speaker 2: body of that article goes on to specify that it 659 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 2: was a nude orgy. I didn't know you needed to specify, 660 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 2: but it does okay. I know that this is just 661 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 2: cruel at this point, Like this piece of the story 662 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 2: isn't even that important. It's just such a silly, little 663 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 2: shocking piece that I have accidentally ended up teasing you 664 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 2: with repeatedly. It's just a weird bump in the road 665 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 2: that I had to write down the second I started 666 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 2: writing the script for the first episode. And the problem is, 667 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,800 Speaker 2: I'm making this show in real time. There's no planning ahead, 668 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 2: there's no backlog, there's no writing all of the parts 669 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 2: before the first one comes out. The episode you hear 670 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 2: on a Thursday was recorded Monday morning and edited by 671 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 2: Wednesday afternoon. And I never know where I'm going until 672 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:27,319 Speaker 2: I get there. 673 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 1: You know. 674 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 2: I spend all week reading and researching and making my 675 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 2: little timelines and writing my little biography of side characters 676 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:41,799 Speaker 2: and translating Yugoslavian war tribunal records, and you know how, 677 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 2: I get distracted. And then I sit down and start writing. 678 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 2: And I probably shouldn't admit this, but I don't make 679 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 2: an outline, and I'm not in control of where the 680 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,879 Speaker 2: story goes once I start writing. So sometimes the sun 681 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 2: is coming up on a Monday morning, and I realized 682 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 2: that I accidentally stopped writingading around three AM because I 683 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 2: got distracted by something very exciting but entirely irrelevant. And 684 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,320 Speaker 2: my very patient editor is waiting on an audio file 685 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 2: and I haven't even started recording yet. I think I'm 686 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,439 Speaker 2: going to end up having to spend my day off 687 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 2: trying to figure out why Rockwell's number one guy in 688 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:24,880 Speaker 2: Dallas was called to testify in front of the Warren Commission. So, 689 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,360 Speaker 2: for Rory's sake, because I'm already late and this is 690 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 2: already long, I have to leave you in nineteen seventy six, 691 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:35,839 Speaker 2: but I'm going to try and make it up to you. 692 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,440 Speaker 2: I think I guess I shouldn't make promises, but I'm 693 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,000 Speaker 2: pretty sure we can arrange for the second half of 694 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:48,399 Speaker 2: part three to come out before next week. So think 695 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 2: of this as part three point one until then. For 696 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 2: the love of God, if you're going to break into 697 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:16,480 Speaker 2: a guy's house, don't take your pants off there. Weird 698 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 2: Little Guys is a production of fool Zone Media and iHeartRadio. 699 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,319 Speaker 2: It's researched, written and recorded by me, Molly Conger. Our 700 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,480 Speaker 2: executive producers are Sophie Letterman, and Robert Evans. The show 701 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 2: is edited by the wildly talented Ory Gagan. If the 702 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 2: music was composed by Brad Dickard, you can email me 703 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 2: at Wirdly Guys Podcast at gmail dot com. I will 704 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 2: definitely read it, but I probably won't answer it as 705 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,279 Speaker 2: nothing personal. You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show 706 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 2: with other listeners on the Weird Little Guys subreddit. Just 707 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,360 Speaker 2: don't post anything that's going to make you one of 708 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 2: my weird Little guys want of time for it.