WEBVTT - Bonus: Case Update 

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<v Speaker 1>School of Humans Hi Helen Gone Listeners. While we investigated

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<v Speaker 1>the death of Janie Ward for season two, we also

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<v Speaker 1>spent some time looking back into the murder of Rebecca

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<v Speaker 1>Gould from season one. In order to keep the cases separate,

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<v Speaker 1>we decided to make an adjustment. We're going to consolidate

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<v Speaker 1>all of the season one updates on Rebecca's case into

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<v Speaker 1>one episode. Rebecca Gould was brutally murdered on September twentieth,

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and four, near the small town of Melbourne, Arkansas.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been fifteen years and her killer has never been found.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot has happened since season one. Rebecca's father, Larry,

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<v Speaker 1>is continuing to battle to get justice for his daughter.

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<v Speaker 1>He's been fighting to change the law to allow more

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<v Speaker 1>open access to cold case files. The ASP have been

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<v Speaker 1>made making this claim since the beginning that keeping the

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<v Speaker 1>case file sealed is an absolute priority. After we began

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<v Speaker 1>our investigation and went to the police and the prosecutor

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<v Speaker 1>to point out discrepancies in the timeline, Dennis, the lead

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<v Speaker 1>investigator on Rebecca's case, interviewed Casey's friends Philip and Laren,

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<v Speaker 1>who were out with Casey on September twentieth, two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and four, the day Rebecca was murdered. Rather than talking

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<v Speaker 1>to them in person, Dennis sent their witness statements back

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<v Speaker 1>to them. In doing so, he lost any ability he

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<v Speaker 1>had to ask them anything new or to challenge them

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<v Speaker 1>on anything they'd already written down. But this also meant

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<v Speaker 1>that these witness statements, which the Arkansas State Police have

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<v Speaker 1>long claimed were sealed in order to protect the integrity

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<v Speaker 1>of the case, immediately became public knowledge. Rebecca was murdered

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<v Speaker 1>on September twentieth, two thousand and four. We know she

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<v Speaker 1>dropped Casey off at Sonic that morning in her car,

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<v Speaker 1>stopped by the Possum Trot to buy a breakfast sandwich

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<v Speaker 1>and coffee, and went back to Casey's house. So now

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<v Speaker 1>we can focus even more on the timeline and try

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<v Speaker 1>to answer the question what happened during those missing hours.

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<v Speaker 1>In Philip's statement, he said, some of the guys were

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<v Speaker 1>headed to Batesville to watch a movie. When I arrived,

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<v Speaker 1>Casey was outside and I started to talk to him.

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<v Speaker 1>Casey told me that he was waiting on his ride.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he mentioned Rebecca as being his ride, but

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not positive. I asked where his truck was, and

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<v Speaker 1>he told me that his dad had taken it to Batesville.

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<v Speaker 1>According to phillips statement, the five friends Laren, b Jy, Sean, Casey,

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<v Speaker 1>and Philip left Sonic sometime between four thirty five and

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<v Speaker 1>four fifty. Philip wrote, we did some running about town.

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<v Speaker 1>As with Laren's statement, which we covered last season, there's

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<v Speaker 1>no mention of many key details, like how many vehicles

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<v Speaker 1>they took or who rode with whom. Philip's statement did

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<v Speaker 1>give a few more key details. He said that the

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<v Speaker 1>first thing the guys did when they got to Batesville

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<v Speaker 1>was stopped by to pick up Casey's truck. He wrote,

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<v Speaker 1>we found it in a second parking area, and Casey

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<v Speaker 1>made sure the keys were in it. I noticed that

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<v Speaker 1>there's no mention of which parking area or of what

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<v Speaker 1>time any of this happened. Also, Philip wrote in his

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<v Speaker 1>statement that Casey indicated that his father had left the

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<v Speaker 1>truck for him. There's also no mention of what time

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<v Speaker 1>Casey's father, who was a truck driver, went on the road.

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<v Speaker 1>Figuring out these details is crucial to narrowing down the

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<v Speaker 1>people who could have come to Casey's home that day

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<v Speaker 1>and killed Rebecca After picking up the truck, the five

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<v Speaker 1>friends stopped by Hastings then Colton's to eat. Then they

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<v Speaker 1>went to the seven to fifteen showing of Resident Evil.

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<v Speaker 1>After the movie, Philip gave a couple more details. He

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<v Speaker 1>said that the guys stopped by Walmart and then go

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<v Speaker 1>before traveling back to Melbourne, where they let Larin get

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<v Speaker 1>his truck before arriving at Laren's house. At that point,

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<v Speaker 1>they watched some DVDs and smoke some pot. Two of

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<v Speaker 1>the guys left and Philip and Laren went to bed

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<v Speaker 1>in their rooms. Casey stayed the night and slept on

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<v Speaker 1>the couch. At seven am the next morning, according to Philip,

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<v Speaker 1>Casey's alarm went off. Casey hit snooze twice before leaving

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<v Speaker 1>at seven twenty. I'm noticing that in this part of

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<v Speaker 1>the witness statement, the details are getting more and more specific,

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<v Speaker 1>Philip wrote. Casey quickly sat up, put his clothes on,

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<v Speaker 1>said goodbye, and left. That was the last time I've

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<v Speaker 1>heard or saw Casey. Philip also wrote, I know Casey

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<v Speaker 1>was madly in love with Rebecca because he would never

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<v Speaker 1>shut up about her. He lost a promotion because of

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<v Speaker 1>their antics at work, but he didn't care, Philip said

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<v Speaker 1>in his statement as Larry and did that Casey tried

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<v Speaker 1>to call Rebecca Monday night when he got home from Batesville.

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<v Speaker 1>Philip wrote, after he had been on the phone, he

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<v Speaker 1>told us that she was missing. But there's something weird here.

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<v Speaker 1>When I squint to read the handwritten statement, I can

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<v Speaker 1>see that the sentence originally read he told us all

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<v Speaker 1>that she had been missing for twenty four hours had

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<v Speaker 1>been and twenty four hours are crossed out and initialed

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<v Speaker 1>by Philip. So I'm wondering why was this crossed out.

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<v Speaker 1>I keep coming back again and again to the statement

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<v Speaker 1>that we got from our informant. They said that the

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<v Speaker 1>police had the timeline wrong. The police were focused on

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<v Speaker 1>the evening and never addressed the multiple gaps of missing

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<v Speaker 1>time during the day. Philip wrote that Casey showed signs

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<v Speaker 1>he was worried about Rebecca being missing, but he never

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<v Speaker 1>left to go find her. This echoes what was rech

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<v Speaker 1>and Laren's statement. Laren wrote, Rebecca was supposed to have

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<v Speaker 1>picked him up, but she hadn't shown. It entered my

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<v Speaker 1>mind that he wasn't too concerned, but I just thought

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<v Speaker 1>that he was getting out with the guys for the night.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking if Casey was telling his friends that Rebecca

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<v Speaker 1>was supposed to pick him up that afternoon. This does

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<v Speaker 1>not match the original story that was told to police

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<v Speaker 1>and the one that's been reported in the newspapers. By

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<v Speaker 1>the time Casey got off work, Rebecca was already supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to have left to pick her sister Danielle up and

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<v Speaker 1>go back to school. I had already seen Laren's statement,

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<v Speaker 1>so I compare the one in public record now with

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<v Speaker 1>the one I saw last summer, and I noticed something else.

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<v Speaker 1>Certain passages have been highlighted with neon yellow ink, including

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<v Speaker 1>the part where Laryen wrote, I know that Casey was

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<v Speaker 1>head over heels for her, and for him to go

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<v Speaker 1>out with us and have something not right with Rebecca

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<v Speaker 1>didn't seem right. Laren also wrote in his statement that

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<v Speaker 1>Casey used the phone when he got back to Laren's house.

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<v Speaker 1>I can see there's another part of Laren's statement with

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<v Speaker 1>big bold yellow blocks. Laren wrote after he hung up,

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<v Speaker 1>he stated that Rebecca was missing. That's when it really

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<v Speaker 1>seemed odd that he didn't head out the door to

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<v Speaker 1>find her. As I said at the end of season one,

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<v Speaker 1>we're all in this together. But even though we now

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<v Speaker 1>have access to these statements, the waiting game continues. Rebecca's father, Larry,

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<v Speaker 1>has worked tirelessly over the years to get justice for

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<v Speaker 1>his daughter. He's written hundreds of letters to police and

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<v Speaker 1>to prosecutors, spoken to the media, and spent tens of

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<v Speaker 1>thousands of dollars hiring investigators. Since last season, Larry has

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<v Speaker 1>spoken to a legislator and began to work on creating

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<v Speaker 1>Rebecca's Law, which would allow for more open access of records.

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<v Speaker 1>Some states have sunset clauses which allow case files to

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<v Speaker 1>become or public after a certain amount of time passes. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>Arkansas isn't one of them. Well, we think that it

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<v Speaker 1>should be. In February twenty nineteen, we were invited to

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<v Speaker 1>the Capitol Building in Little Rock to meet with Janadela Rosa,

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<v Speaker 1>a member of Arkansas Congress. She's also a true crime fan.

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<v Speaker 1>So I listened to the podcast because I listened to

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of true podcasts. Because I travel back and

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<v Speaker 1>forth from northwest Arkansas, so I have a three hour

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<v Speaker 1>drive each way, three hours and fifteen minutes. If the

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<v Speaker 1>state police are listening, and my sister's the one that

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<v Speaker 1>got me hooked on podcasts, and she's actually the one

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<v Speaker 1>that recommended Helen Gone. I hadn't heard about it. I

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<v Speaker 1>got to the episode where you were saying that I

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<v Speaker 1>think it was that Larry had contacted the legislature trying

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<v Speaker 1>to get Rebecca's law passed, and I'm in my car

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<v Speaker 1>and everybody would laugh. I mean, but I'm not a car, went,

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<v Speaker 1>Holy moly, that's me. That's me. That's me. That that

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<v Speaker 1>pertains to me. Jana reached out to us on our

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook page and we've been corresponding about the best way

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<v Speaker 1>to get Rebecca's law passed. There's a big difference between

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<v Speaker 1>one single case and a law that would apply to

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<v Speaker 1>all cases. Henceforth, it's two totally different things. So you

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<v Speaker 1>always have to take that into account, and you've got

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<v Speaker 1>to bring in basically all the stakeholders in all of

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<v Speaker 1>it and try and come up with something that benefits

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<v Speaker 1>the victim's family but doesn't harm the investigation, that doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>cause a prosecutor to have trouble later, that doesn't in

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<v Speaker 1>any way infringe on any kind of privacy laws or

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<v Speaker 1>anything like that. So it's a much bigger task to

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<v Speaker 1>try and create a policy or a law than it

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<v Speaker 1>is to try and fix an issue that one particular

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<v Speaker 1>person had in one particular case. Because it applies to

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<v Speaker 1>the whole state. That means that in order to pass

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<v Speaker 1>something like Rebecca's Law, we will need to have the

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<v Speaker 1>support of the Arkansas State Police. But it's going to

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<v Speaker 1>be a long process. We meet every other year in session,

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<v Speaker 1>so right now we're in session, and we meet in

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<v Speaker 1>the off years, and that's when the bills are proposed.

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<v Speaker 1>And a bill has to be proposed either by a

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<v Speaker 1>House member or a Senate member. It's the only one

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<v Speaker 1>that can introduce a bill, and it's got to move

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<v Speaker 1>through both chambers. So in this case, if I introduce

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<v Speaker 1>this as a House bill, it'll go through committee first.

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<v Speaker 1>If it passes that, then it goes to the House

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<v Speaker 1>floor and gets voted on by the whole house. If

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<v Speaker 1>it passes that, it goes and does the exact same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>On the Senate side, It goes through its chamber, goes

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<v Speaker 1>through its floor. If it passes all of that, then

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<v Speaker 1>it goes to the Governor's desk and he has the

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<v Speaker 1>power to veto or pass, and if it passes that,

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<v Speaker 1>then you actually have a law that's in place. So

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<v Speaker 1>there's five check marks that have to be made, two

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<v Speaker 1>on the House side, two on the Senate side, and

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<v Speaker 1>one by the governor. So if you can get through

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<v Speaker 1>all of that, then you actually have a law. As

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<v Speaker 1>an investigator, I completely understand the difficulties the Arkansas State

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<v Speaker 1>Police would have with a bill like this. What I

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<v Speaker 1>would like to see from this bill is twofold one

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<v Speaker 1>some sort of a review process where an independent investigator,

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<v Speaker 1>after a certain amount of time has passed, can come

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<v Speaker 1>in and take another look at the case file. And two,

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<v Speaker 1>at some point I believe the case file should become public.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, there's a need to withhold certain details early

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<v Speaker 1>in investigation so the killer can be caught. But once

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<v Speaker 1>a case has gone cold, the public can be your

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<v Speaker 1>best friend when you're trying to solve a murder. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>be right back. One thread that seems to tie Jane

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<v Speaker 1>and Rebecca's case together, and as an investigator I have

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<v Speaker 1>to be very careful to avoid, is the concept of

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<v Speaker 1>confirmation bias. I see it all the time in murder cases.

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<v Speaker 1>Once investigators or loved ones decide who or what killed someone,

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<v Speaker 1>the person is looking for the evidence to support their

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<v Speaker 1>particular conclusion. It's hard to do, but you really need

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<v Speaker 1>to have an open mind when entering an investigation, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's why what we do is so important. In Rebecca's case,

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<v Speaker 1>Dennis Simons, the lead investigator, told me he believed that

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<v Speaker 1>Chris killed her, and that if Chris could not be

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<v Speaker 1>prosecuted for Rebecca's murder, Dennis planned to ensure that Chris

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<v Speaker 1>served life in prison on the installment plan. Chris was

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<v Speaker 1>arrested in October twenty eighteen for threatening the life of Justin,

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<v Speaker 1>Rebecca's ex boyfriend, allegedly telling him that if Justin continued

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<v Speaker 1>to talk to police about Rebecca's murder, Chris would kill him.

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<v Speaker 1>I was shocked to hear this because, as many of

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we interviewed both Chris and Justin in season

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<v Speaker 1>one and concluded that we do not believe there's any

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<v Speaker 1>evidence to support the fact that either of them were

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<v Speaker 1>involved in Rebecca's murder. I decided we had to get

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<v Speaker 1>to the bottom of Chris's arrest. Was it really connected

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<v Speaker 1>to Rebecca's case or was something else going on. Here's

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<v Speaker 1>what we know. According to the arrest affidavit, Chris was

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<v Speaker 1>at a friend's house on September twenty twenty fifth, twenty eighteen,

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<v Speaker 1>when the friend told him he was headed to Justin's house.

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<v Speaker 1>The affidavit described Justin as the former boyfriend of Rebecca Gould,

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<v Speaker 1>the two thousand and four homicide victim. Once they got

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<v Speaker 1>to the house, Justin's wife told investigators when she answered

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<v Speaker 1>the back door, Chris's friend entered, and then Chris pushed

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<v Speaker 1>his way into the residence and put the couple's telephone

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<v Speaker 1>in his pocket. Justin was at the store at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>but when he got back home, he reported that he

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<v Speaker 1>was confronted by Chris quote in regards to Justin making

0:13:40.205 --> 0:13:44.085
<v Speaker 1>statements to law enforcement about Chris's possible involvement in the

0:13:44.125 --> 0:13:48.285
<v Speaker 1>murder of Rebecca. According to court papers, Chris threatened to

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<v Speaker 1>kill Justin if he continued to talk. Justin's wife said

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<v Speaker 1>she heard Chris say he would cut Justin's throat and

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<v Speaker 1>that he would kill him if he continued to make statements.

0:13:58.445 --> 0:14:02.285
<v Speaker 1>Chris's friend also told investigators that he witnessed Chris threatened

0:14:02.325 --> 0:14:06.525
<v Speaker 1>Justin's life. Police say Justin escaped the residence and contacted

0:14:06.605 --> 0:14:10.125
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement from a neighbor's phone. According to press reports,

0:14:10.325 --> 0:14:14.245
<v Speaker 1>Chris was charged with residential burglary, intimidating a juror a

0:14:14.285 --> 0:14:18.485
<v Speaker 1>witness or informant, terroristic threatening in the first degree, in

0:14:18.485 --> 0:14:21.965
<v Speaker 1>interference with emergency communication in the first degree for taking

0:14:22.005 --> 0:14:25.165
<v Speaker 1>the phone. He was taken into custody and his bail

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<v Speaker 1>was set at fifty thousand dollars. In March twenty nineteen,

0:14:29.845 --> 0:14:32.525
<v Speaker 1>Chris was sentenced to ninety six months in jail for

0:14:32.645 --> 0:14:37.645
<v Speaker 1>terroristic threatening. So, due in part to his criminal history,

0:14:38.285 --> 0:14:40.885
<v Speaker 1>Chris got eight years in prison for making a threat.

0:14:42.045 --> 0:14:44.045
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to know more about what happened that night,

0:14:44.725 --> 0:14:47.205
<v Speaker 1>so I filed a freedom of information requests with a

0:14:47.245 --> 0:14:50.685
<v Speaker 1>Stone County Sheriff's office. It was denied by the Council

0:14:50.725 --> 0:14:55.005
<v Speaker 1>for Stone County. In the denial, the lawyer referred to

0:14:55.045 --> 0:14:58.085
<v Speaker 1>the case being part of an open investigation connected to

0:14:58.125 --> 0:15:01.925
<v Speaker 1>Rebecca's case. I was able to get the arrest affidavit.

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<v Speaker 1>The person who supplied the facts constituting reasonable cause was

0:15:06.565 --> 0:15:09.685
<v Speaker 1>you guessed it, Special Agent Dennis Simon's of the Arkansas

0:15:09.725 --> 0:15:12.845
<v Speaker 1>State Police. There's a lot about this arrest affidavit that

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<v Speaker 1>bothers me. First of all, Justin was supposedly in fear

0:15:16.605 --> 0:15:20.885
<v Speaker 1>for his life, but this affidavit wasn't filed until October eighth,

0:15:21.165 --> 0:15:24.365
<v Speaker 1>two weeks after the fight. I'm getting a lot of

0:15:24.405 --> 0:15:27.565
<v Speaker 1>other bizarre Facebook messages from people who claimed that there's

0:15:27.605 --> 0:15:30.525
<v Speaker 1>more to the story. One is from a source who

0:15:30.525 --> 0:15:33.325
<v Speaker 1>states that the fight started out as a domestic dispute

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<v Speaker 1>between Justin and his wife and that Chris somehow got

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle. I'm left with a lot of questions.

0:15:39.325 --> 0:15:42.925
<v Speaker 1>If Chris threatened Justin's life, why wasn't he arrested that night?

0:15:43.885 --> 0:15:46.885
<v Speaker 1>But with Chris behind bars, it seems that no one

0:15:46.925 --> 0:15:50.525
<v Speaker 1>is asking questions about what happened. But I won't accept

0:15:50.605 --> 0:15:54.725
<v Speaker 1>silence for an answer. I'm Catherine Townsend and this is

0:15:54.765 --> 0:16:10.245
<v Speaker 1>Helen Gone. Helen Gone is a joint production between School

0:16:10.285 --> 0:16:14.205
<v Speaker 1>of Humans and iHeartRadio. It is written and recorded by me.

0:16:14.525 --> 0:16:18.885
<v Speaker 1>Katherine Townsend. Taylor Church and Gabby Watts are our producers

0:16:18.925 --> 0:16:23.765
<v Speaker 1>and story editors. Executive producers are Brandon Barr, Brian Lavin,

0:16:23.885 --> 0:16:27.205
<v Speaker 1>and Else Crowley for School of Humans and Conell Byrne

0:16:27.245 --> 0:16:31.125
<v Speaker 1>and Chuck Bryant for iHeart. Theme and original score are

0:16:31.125 --> 0:16:35.285
<v Speaker 1>by Ben Sale. Available wherever you get your music, Please

0:16:35.365 --> 0:16:39.125
<v Speaker 1>visit us at Helen gonpodcast dot com or follow us

0:16:39.125 --> 0:17:02.485
<v Speaker 1>on social media. School of Humans