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Speaker 1: School of Humans Hi Helen Gone Listeners. While we investigated

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Speaker 1: the death of Janie Ward for season two, we also

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Speaker 1: spent some time looking back into the murder of Rebecca

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Speaker 1: Gould from season one. In order to keep the cases separate,

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Speaker 1: we decided to make an adjustment. We're going to consolidate

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Speaker 1: all of the season one updates on Rebecca's case into

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Speaker 1: one episode. Rebecca Gould was brutally murdered on September twentieth,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four, near the small town of Melbourne, Arkansas.

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Speaker 1: It's been fifteen years and her killer has never been found.

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Speaker 1: A lot has happened since season one. Rebecca's father, Larry,

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Speaker 1: is continuing to battle to get justice for his daughter.

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Speaker 1: He's been fighting to change the law to allow more

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Speaker 1: open access to cold case files. The ASP have been

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Speaker 1: made making this claim since the beginning that keeping the

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Speaker 1: case file sealed is an absolute priority. After we began

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Speaker 1: our investigation and went to the police and the prosecutor

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Speaker 1: to point out discrepancies in the timeline, Dennis, the lead

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Speaker 1: investigator on Rebecca's case, interviewed Casey's friends Philip and Laren,

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Speaker 1: who were out with Casey on September twentieth, two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four, the day Rebecca was murdered. Rather than talking

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Speaker 1: to them in person, Dennis sent their witness statements back

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Speaker 1: to them. In doing so, he lost any ability he

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Speaker 1: had to ask them anything new or to challenge them

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Speaker 1: on anything they'd already written down. But this also meant

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Speaker 1: that these witness statements, which the Arkansas State Police have

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Speaker 1: long claimed were sealed in order to protect the integrity

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Speaker 1: of the case, immediately became public knowledge. Rebecca was murdered

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Speaker 1: on September twentieth, two thousand and four. We know she

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Speaker 1: dropped Casey off at Sonic that morning in her car,

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Speaker 1: stopped by the Possum Trot to buy a breakfast sandwich

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Speaker 1: and coffee, and went back to Casey's house. So now

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Speaker 1: we can focus even more on the timeline and try

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Speaker 1: to answer the question what happened during those missing hours.

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Speaker 1: In Philip's statement, he said, some of the guys were

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Speaker 1: headed to Batesville to watch a movie. When I arrived,

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Speaker 1: Casey was outside and I started to talk to him.

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Speaker 1: Casey told me that he was waiting on his ride.

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Speaker 1: I think he mentioned Rebecca as being his ride, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not positive. I asked where his truck was, and

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Speaker 1: he told me that his dad had taken it to Batesville.

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Speaker 1: According to phillips statement, the five friends Laren, b Jy, Sean, Casey,

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Speaker 1: and Philip left Sonic sometime between four thirty five and

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Speaker 1: four fifty. Philip wrote, we did some running about town.

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Speaker 1: As with Laren's statement, which we covered last season, there's

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Speaker 1: no mention of many key details, like how many vehicles

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Speaker 1: they took or who rode with whom. Philip's statement did

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Speaker 1: give a few more key details. He said that the

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Speaker 1: first thing the guys did when they got to Batesville

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Speaker 1: was stopped by to pick up Casey's truck. He wrote,

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Speaker 1: we found it in a second parking area, and Casey

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Speaker 1: made sure the keys were in it. I noticed that

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Speaker 1: there's no mention of which parking area or of what

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Speaker 1: time any of this happened. Also, Philip wrote in his

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Speaker 1: statement that Casey indicated that his father had left the

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Speaker 1: truck for him. There's also no mention of what time

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Speaker 1: Casey's father, who was a truck driver, went on the road.

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Speaker 1: Figuring out these details is crucial to narrowing down the

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Speaker 1: people who could have come to Casey's home that day

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Speaker 1: and killed Rebecca After picking up the truck, the five

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Speaker 1: friends stopped by Hastings then Colton's to eat. Then they

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Speaker 1: went to the seven to fifteen showing of Resident Evil.

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Speaker 1: After the movie, Philip gave a couple more details. He

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Speaker 1: said that the guys stopped by Walmart and then go

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Speaker 1: before traveling back to Melbourne, where they let Larin get

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Speaker 1: his truck before arriving at Laren's house. At that point,

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Speaker 1: they watched some DVDs and smoke some pot. Two of

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Speaker 1: the guys left and Philip and Laren went to bed

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Speaker 1: in their rooms. Casey stayed the night and slept on

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Speaker 1: the couch. At seven am the next morning, according to Philip,

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Speaker 1: Casey's alarm went off. Casey hit snooze twice before leaving

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Speaker 1: at seven twenty. I'm noticing that in this part of

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Speaker 1: the witness statement, the details are getting more and more specific,

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Speaker 1: Philip wrote. Casey quickly sat up, put his clothes on,

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Speaker 1: said goodbye, and left. That was the last time I've

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Speaker 1: heard or saw Casey. Philip also wrote, I know Casey

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Speaker 1: was madly in love with Rebecca because he would never

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Speaker 1: shut up about her. He lost a promotion because of

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Speaker 1: their antics at work, but he didn't care, Philip said

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Speaker 1: in his statement as Larry and did that Casey tried

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Speaker 1: to call Rebecca Monday night when he got home from Batesville.

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Speaker 1: Philip wrote, after he had been on the phone, he

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Speaker 1: told us that she was missing. But there's something weird here.

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Speaker 1: When I squint to read the handwritten statement, I can

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Speaker 1: see that the sentence originally read he told us all

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Speaker 1: that she had been missing for twenty four hours had

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Speaker 1: been and twenty four hours are crossed out and initialed

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Speaker 1: by Philip. So I'm wondering why was this crossed out.

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Speaker 1: I keep coming back again and again to the statement

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Speaker 1: that we got from our informant. They said that the

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Speaker 1: police had the timeline wrong. The police were focused on

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Speaker 1: the evening and never addressed the multiple gaps of missing

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Speaker 1: time during the day. Philip wrote that Casey showed signs

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Speaker 1: he was worried about Rebecca being missing, but he never

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Speaker 1: left to go find her. This echoes what was rech

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Speaker 1: and Laren's statement. Laren wrote, Rebecca was supposed to have

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Speaker 1: picked him up, but she hadn't shown. It entered my

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Speaker 1: mind that he wasn't too concerned, but I just thought

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Speaker 1: that he was getting out with the guys for the night.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking if Casey was telling his friends that Rebecca

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Speaker 1: was supposed to pick him up that afternoon. This does

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Speaker 1: not match the original story that was told to police

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Speaker 1: and the one that's been reported in the newspapers. By

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Speaker 1: the time Casey got off work, Rebecca was already supposed

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Speaker 1: to have left to pick her sister Danielle up and

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Speaker 1: go back to school. I had already seen Laren's statement,

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Speaker 1: so I compare the one in public record now with

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Speaker 1: the one I saw last summer, and I noticed something else.

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Speaker 1: Certain passages have been highlighted with neon yellow ink, including

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Speaker 1: the part where Laryen wrote, I know that Casey was

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Speaker 1: head over heels for her, and for him to go

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Speaker 1: out with us and have something not right with Rebecca

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Speaker 1: didn't seem right. Laren also wrote in his statement that

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Speaker 1: Casey used the phone when he got back to Laren's house.

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Speaker 1: I can see there's another part of Laren's statement with

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Speaker 1: big bold yellow blocks. Laren wrote after he hung up,

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Speaker 1: he stated that Rebecca was missing. That's when it really

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Speaker 1: seemed odd that he didn't head out the door to

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Speaker 1: find her. As I said at the end of season one,

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Speaker 1: we're all in this together. But even though we now

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Speaker 1: have access to these statements, the waiting game continues. Rebecca's father, Larry,

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Speaker 1: has worked tirelessly over the years to get justice for

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Speaker 1: his daughter. He's written hundreds of letters to police and

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Speaker 1: to prosecutors, spoken to the media, and spent tens of

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Speaker 1: thousands of dollars hiring investigators. Since last season, Larry has

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Speaker 1: spoken to a legislator and began to work on creating

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Speaker 1: Rebecca's Law, which would allow for more open access of records.

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Speaker 1: Some states have sunset clauses which allow case files to

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Speaker 1: become or public after a certain amount of time passes. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: Arkansas isn't one of them. Well, we think that it

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Speaker 1: should be. In February twenty nineteen, we were invited to

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Speaker 1: the Capitol Building in Little Rock to meet with Janadela Rosa,

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Speaker 1: a member of Arkansas Congress. She's also a true crime fan.

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Speaker 1: So I listened to the podcast because I listened to

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Speaker 1: a lot of true podcasts. Because I travel back and

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Speaker 1: forth from northwest Arkansas, so I have a three hour

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Speaker 1: drive each way, three hours and fifteen minutes. If the

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Speaker 1: state police are listening, and my sister's the one that

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Speaker 1: got me hooked on podcasts, and she's actually the one

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Speaker 1: that recommended Helen Gone. I hadn't heard about it. I

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Speaker 1: got to the episode where you were saying that I

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Speaker 1: think it was that Larry had contacted the legislature trying

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Speaker 1: to get Rebecca's law passed, and I'm in my car

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Speaker 1: and everybody would laugh. I mean, but I'm not a car, went,

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Speaker 1: Holy moly, that's me. That's me. That's me. That that

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Speaker 1: pertains to me. Jana reached out to us on our

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Speaker 1: Facebook page and we've been corresponding about the best way

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Speaker 1: to get Rebecca's law passed. There's a big difference between

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Speaker 1: one single case and a law that would apply to

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Speaker 1: all cases. Henceforth, it's two totally different things. So you

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Speaker 1: always have to take that into account, and you've got

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Speaker 1: to bring in basically all the stakeholders in all of

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Speaker 1: it and try and come up with something that benefits

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Speaker 1: the victim's family but doesn't harm the investigation, that doesn't

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Speaker 1: cause a prosecutor to have trouble later, that doesn't in

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Speaker 1: any way infringe on any kind of privacy laws or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. So it's a much bigger task to

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Speaker 1: try and create a policy or a law than it

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Speaker 1: is to try and fix an issue that one particular

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Speaker 1: person had in one particular case. Because it applies to

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Speaker 1: the whole state. That means that in order to pass

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Speaker 1: something like Rebecca's Law, we will need to have the

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Speaker 1: support of the Arkansas State Police. But it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a long process. We meet every other year in session,

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Speaker 1: so right now we're in session, and we meet in

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Speaker 1: the off years, and that's when the bills are proposed.

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Speaker 1: And a bill has to be proposed either by a

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Speaker 1: House member or a Senate member. It's the only one

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Speaker 1: that can introduce a bill, and it's got to move

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Speaker 1: through both chambers. So in this case, if I introduce

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Speaker 1: this as a House bill, it'll go through committee first.

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Speaker 1: If it passes that, then it goes to the House

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Speaker 1: floor and gets voted on by the whole house. If

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Speaker 1: it passes that, it goes and does the exact same thing.

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Speaker 1: On the Senate side, It goes through its chamber, goes

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Speaker 1: through its floor. If it passes all of that, then

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Speaker 1: it goes to the Governor's desk and he has the

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Speaker 1: power to veto or pass, and if it passes that,

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Speaker 1: then you actually have a law that's in place. So

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Speaker 1: there's five check marks that have to be made, two

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Speaker 1: on the House side, two on the Senate side, and

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Speaker 1: one by the governor. So if you can get through

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Speaker 1: all of that, then you actually have a law. As

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Speaker 1: an investigator, I completely understand the difficulties the Arkansas State

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Speaker 1: Police would have with a bill like this. What I

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Speaker 1: would like to see from this bill is twofold one

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Speaker 1: some sort of a review process where an independent investigator,

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Speaker 1: after a certain amount of time has passed, can come

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Speaker 1: in and take another look at the case file. And two,

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Speaker 1: at some point I believe the case file should become public.

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Speaker 1: Of course, there's a need to withhold certain details early

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Speaker 1: in investigation so the killer can be caught. But once

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Speaker 1: a case has gone cold, the public can be your

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Speaker 1: best friend when you're trying to solve a murder. We'll

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Speaker 1: be right back. One thread that seems to tie Jane

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Speaker 1: and Rebecca's case together, and as an investigator I have

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Speaker 1: to be very careful to avoid, is the concept of

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Speaker 1: confirmation bias. I see it all the time in murder cases.

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Speaker 1: Once investigators or loved ones decide who or what killed someone,

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Speaker 1: the person is looking for the evidence to support their

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Speaker 1: particular conclusion. It's hard to do, but you really need

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Speaker 1: to have an open mind when entering an investigation, and

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Speaker 1: that's why what we do is so important. In Rebecca's case,

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Speaker 1: Dennis Simons, the lead investigator, told me he believed that

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Speaker 1: Chris killed her, and that if Chris could not be

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Speaker 1: prosecuted for Rebecca's murder, Dennis planned to ensure that Chris

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Speaker 1: served life in prison on the installment plan. Chris was

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Speaker 1: arrested in October twenty eighteen for threatening the life of Justin,

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Speaker 1: Rebecca's ex boyfriend, allegedly telling him that if Justin continued

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Speaker 1: to talk to police about Rebecca's murder, Chris would kill him.

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Speaker 1: I was shocked to hear this because, as many of

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Speaker 1: you know, we interviewed both Chris and Justin in season

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Speaker 1: one and concluded that we do not believe there's any

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Speaker 1: evidence to support the fact that either of them were

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Speaker 1: involved in Rebecca's murder. I decided we had to get

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Speaker 1: to the bottom of Chris's arrest. Was it really connected

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Speaker 1: to Rebecca's case or was something else going on. Here's

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Speaker 1: what we know. According to the arrest affidavit, Chris was

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Speaker 1: at a friend's house on September twenty twenty fifth, twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: when the friend told him he was headed to Justin's house.

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Speaker 1: The affidavit described Justin as the former boyfriend of Rebecca Gould,

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Speaker 1: the two thousand and four homicide victim. Once they got

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Speaker 1: to the house, Justin's wife told investigators when she answered

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Speaker 1: the back door, Chris's friend entered, and then Chris pushed

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Speaker 1: his way into the residence and put the couple's telephone

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Speaker 1: in his pocket. Justin was at the store at the time,

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Speaker 1: but when he got back home, he reported that he

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Speaker 1: was confronted by Chris quote in regards to Justin making

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Speaker 1: statements to law enforcement about Chris's possible involvement in the

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Speaker 1: murder of Rebecca. According to court papers, Chris threatened to

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Speaker 1: kill Justin if he continued to talk. Justin's wife said

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Speaker 1: she heard Chris say he would cut Justin's throat and

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Speaker 1: that he would kill him if he continued to make statements.

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Speaker 1: Chris's friend also told investigators that he witnessed Chris threatened

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Speaker 1: Justin's life. Police say Justin escaped the residence and contacted

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Speaker 1: law enforcement from a neighbor's phone. According to press reports,

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Speaker 1: Chris was charged with residential burglary, intimidating a juror a

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Speaker 1: witness or informant, terroristic threatening in the first degree, in

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Speaker 1: interference with emergency communication in the first degree for taking

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Speaker 1: the phone. He was taken into custody and his bail

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Speaker 1: was set at fifty thousand dollars. In March twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: Chris was sentenced to ninety six months in jail for

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Speaker 1: terroristic threatening. So, due in part to his criminal history,

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Speaker 1: Chris got eight years in prison for making a threat.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to know more about what happened that night,

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Speaker 1: so I filed a freedom of information requests with a

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Speaker 1: Stone County Sheriff's office. It was denied by the Council

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Speaker 1: for Stone County. In the denial, the lawyer referred to

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Speaker 1: the case being part of an open investigation connected to

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Speaker 1: Rebecca's case. I was able to get the arrest affidavit.

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Speaker 1: The person who supplied the facts constituting reasonable cause was

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Speaker 1: you guessed it, Special Agent Dennis Simon's of the Arkansas

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Speaker 1: State Police. There's a lot about this arrest affidavit that

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Speaker 1: bothers me. First of all, Justin was supposedly in fear

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Speaker 1: for his life, but this affidavit wasn't filed until October eighth,

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Speaker 1: two weeks after the fight. I'm getting a lot of

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Speaker 1: other bizarre Facebook messages from people who claimed that there's

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Speaker 1: more to the story. One is from a source who

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Speaker 1: states that the fight started out as a domestic dispute

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Speaker 1: between Justin and his wife and that Chris somehow got

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Speaker 1: in the middle. I'm left with a lot of questions.

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Speaker 1: If Chris threatened Justin's life, why wasn't he arrested that night?

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Speaker 1: But with Chris behind bars, it seems that no one

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Speaker 1: is asking questions about what happened. But I won't accept

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Speaker 1: silence for an answer. I'm Catherine Townsend and this is

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Speaker 1: Helen Gone. Helen Gone is a joint production between School

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Speaker 1: of Humans and iHeartRadio. It is written and recorded by me.

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Speaker 1: Katherine Townsend. Taylor Church and Gabby Watts are our producers

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Speaker 1: and story editors. Executive producers are Brandon Barr, Brian Lavin,

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Speaker 1: and Else Crowley for School of Humans and Conell Byrne

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Speaker 1: and Chuck Bryant for iHeart. Theme and original score are

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Speaker 1: by Ben Sale. Available wherever you get your music, Please

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Speaker 1: visit us at Helen gonpodcast dot com or follow us

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Speaker 1: on social media. School of Humans