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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stephan Never Told You a production of iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 2: and today we are so happy to once again be

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Speaker 2: joined by our contrude Deer, the wonderful, the lovely Joey.

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Speaker 1: Welcome, Joey.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Hello, thanks having me it has it has, but

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Speaker 3: super excited i'd be talking about TikTok once again.

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Speaker 1: Happy to be back on.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm I'm very excited to learn about it. This

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Speaker 2: is something I kind of know tangentially about because I've

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Speaker 2: heard jokes about it, and I have what I call

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Speaker 2: TikTok friends and they let me know about it. But

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Speaker 2: I'm going to learn a lot today, So I'm counting

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Speaker 2: on you, and I know you did a lot of

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Speaker 2: research for this, and you have quite you were talking

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Speaker 2: about maybe a whole other other episodes that might come in.

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Speaker 4: Well, we're gonna this was originally came to you guys.

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Speaker 4: With this, I was sort of like, Hey, let's do

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Speaker 4: something about the whole like girl, dinner girl, insert word trends.

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Speaker 4: And then this very very soon spiraled into a much

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Speaker 4: bigger episode because I think there is something really weird

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Speaker 4: happening on TikTok. And just kind of online in general

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Speaker 4: regarding femininity and womanhood and girlhood and feminism and all

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Speaker 4: of these kind of big concepts.

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Speaker 1: So I am calling this.

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Speaker 4: Episode when my kind of working title I put in

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Speaker 4: here was TikTok's Crisis of Femininity.

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Speaker 1: Because I think, and I specifically, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, white heterosexual cisgender femininity, but kind of what is

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Speaker 4: presenting itself is this sort of general just crisis of

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Speaker 4: femininity using of course, like pulling that from the term

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Speaker 4: like crisis of masculinity, which is something that I think

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Speaker 4: gets used a lot to talk about kind of historical

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Speaker 4: moments and also contemporary stuff that often is just referring

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Speaker 4: to conversations about masculinity and male identity and times when

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Speaker 4: this sort of gender role system is being shaken up

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Speaker 4: and is changing, and particularly how that's tied to like

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Speaker 4: capitalism and the changing kind of workforce. And I think,

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Speaker 4: what's happening now again, this is why I'm using this

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Speaker 4: term crisis of femininity that I just assumed people had

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Speaker 4: used before, and I hadn't actually found anyone using this,

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Speaker 4: but I'm sure it's out there. Who's to say, but

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Speaker 4: we're seeing this sort of weird repackage of feminism and

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Speaker 4: women's empowerment into a lot of very binary ideas of

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Speaker 4: womanhood that are often rooted in these very like traditional

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Speaker 4: gender roles and stereotypes. The kind of most obvious case

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Speaker 4: and most like extreme case of this is like the

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Speaker 4: trad wife movement and the stay at home girlfriend and

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Speaker 4: you guys just did a really great episode with Bridget

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Speaker 4: about trad wife.

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Speaker 1: So that I'm gonna be referencing.

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Speaker 4: But I think something that's also happening is this binary

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Speaker 4: is really making its way into a lot of like

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Speaker 4: much more mainstream expressions of like women's empowerment that often

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Speaker 4: like claim to be more progressive and seeing themselves as

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Speaker 4: more progressive. And then I think all of this is

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Speaker 4: kind of happening as a response to a move away

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Speaker 4: from this kind of like quote unquote girl Boss feminism

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Speaker 4: of the twenty tens. And what's happening is we're kind

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Speaker 4: of seeing that, yeah, the girl Boss era kind of

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Speaker 4: is over. It kind of didn't work in a lot

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Speaker 4: of different ways, And in response, I think it's being

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Speaker 4: replaced by this sort of feminism that or perceived feminism

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Speaker 4: that emphasizes consumerism and passivity. And I think it's important

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Speaker 4: to talk about and have these conversations and have these

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Speaker 4: conversations about how we're talking about girlhood and womanhood and femininity,

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Speaker 4: because I think what's happening is sort of it's it's

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Speaker 4: just as kind of dangerousness, just as like unproductive as

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Speaker 4: like the whole girl Boss movement was. And I think

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Speaker 4: we're going to end up where we were kind of

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Speaker 4: in like twenty seventeen twenty eighteen very soon if we

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Speaker 4: don't sort of address what's happening here. So I love

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Speaker 4: that to say, I'm gonna be talking about a lot

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Speaker 4: of different trends here that I'm seeing happening upfront. Just disclaimer,

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Speaker 4: as I often say when I'm on this show, just

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Speaker 4: because I'm criticizing all of these trends does not mean

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Speaker 4: that you're like wrong or in the wrong for like

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Speaker 4: enjoying these things. A lot of these things are sort

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Speaker 4: of like fun on their own, have elements that I

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Speaker 4: can see are empowering to people, but at the same

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Speaker 4: time that just makes it all the more important to

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Speaker 4: look at them critically. So Yeah, to start a couple

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Speaker 4: of weeks ago, I was on Instagram, and this is

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Speaker 4: right around when I had pitched this episode to you guys,

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Speaker 4: and I got this ad that came up that was

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Speaker 4: for like a self care company. I don't remember which

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Speaker 4: one it was exactly. I really wish i'd saved this ad,

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Speaker 4: but I did not. But yeah, I was like a

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Speaker 4: self care company that sells like candles and face masks

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Speaker 4: and bath bombs and all that. And in the ad

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Speaker 4: they used the term quote girl therapy to refer to

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Speaker 4: the products that they were selling, which again were like

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Speaker 4: mostly just candles. And this like set off something and

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Speaker 4: me because you know, if you've been on the internet lately,

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Speaker 4: you probably have seen there have been a lot of

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Speaker 4: these trends. Like the first real big one was like

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Speaker 4: girl dinner, but there's it's gone on into girl hobbies,

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Speaker 4: girl math, girl but now apparently girl therapy, which again,

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Speaker 4: this was the company.

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Speaker 1: Trying to sell candles. That's not therapy.

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Speaker 4: You guys just did just free posted a really great

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Speaker 4: episode about the self care industry that I will put

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Speaker 4: in the notes because I think that kind of did

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Speaker 4: a good job selling up a lot of those issues there.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, this kind of set me on a spiral

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Speaker 4: of looking at all of these girl whatever trends, which Yeah,

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Speaker 4: So first off, let's talk about girl dinner, which back

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Speaker 4: in May, TikTok user Olivia Mahyer made this TikTok about

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Speaker 4: quote girl dinner. The original video is actually a joke

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Speaker 4: about this idea of like quote medieval peasant food just

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Speaker 4: being bread and cheese. And basically the video was her

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Speaker 4: being like, that sounds great, that's my ideal meal, and

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Speaker 4: then she.

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Speaker 1: Says, this is my dinner.

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Speaker 4: I call it a dinner or medieval peasant and then

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Speaker 4: it just shows a bunch of like bread and cheese.

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Speaker 4: Later on TikTok, user at Karma Pilled made a video

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Speaker 4: going this is my meal, I call it girl dinner,

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Speaker 4: and then it's her singing girl dinner and a bunch

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Speaker 4: of different fonts and then that's the sound that.

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Speaker 1: Really blew up.

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Speaker 4: But it was like derivative of this original video. Interestingly,

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Speaker 4: with that video, I didn't realize in it she's holding

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Speaker 4: what looks like a kind of like popsicle stick or

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Speaker 4: something like.

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Speaker 1: It was like an ice cream bar.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, that really took off over the summer and

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Speaker 4: it led to now two hundred and thirty two point

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Speaker 4: eight thousand videos under the girl dinner tag on TikTok.

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Speaker 4: So the girl dinner trend that in and of itself

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Speaker 4: is complicated and like honest, like originally that was gonna

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Speaker 4: be the whole episode. I kind of asked around different

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Speaker 4: people like what they thought about this, and I definitely

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Speaker 4: there was some sort of positive interpretations of it. One

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Speaker 4: that I definitely kept hearing was like, oh, it's this

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Speaker 4: kind of rejection of the idea that womanhood is all

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Speaker 4: about homemaking and it's about you know, making these like

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Speaker 4: perfect elaborate meals all the time. Like it's this trend

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Speaker 4: that is sort of like this is like girl dinner

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Speaker 4: is just kind of like whatever you've got. And you know, Also,

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Speaker 4: something that was interesting was early on, I think a

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Speaker 4: lot of people were showing, you know, meals that weren't traditionally.

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Speaker 1: Things you would associate with like girlhood.

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Speaker 4: You know, a lot of like especially again off of

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Speaker 4: the sort of Girl Boss era, like a lot of

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Speaker 4: it was very much rooted in like diet culture and stuff,

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Speaker 4: and these sort of videos were showing more anti diet

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Speaker 4: culture type meals, like more kind of a lot of

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Speaker 4: like junk food and stuff like that. That being said,

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Speaker 4: the problem is once you make a trend and you

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Speaker 4: put it out into the world, you kind of lose

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Speaker 4: control of it over it, And what we started to

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Speaker 4: see was a lot of people using that.

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Speaker 1: Sound and using the kind of girl dinner thing to show.

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Speaker 4: Essentially one are just like signs of eating disorders or

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Speaker 4: you know, promotion of kind of these unhealthy habits.

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Speaker 1: So that was the first.

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Speaker 4: Sort of thing that happened with that, and then the

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Speaker 4: other was this sort of girl dinner trend turned into

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Speaker 4: all of these different things like girl math, girl hobbies,

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Speaker 4: girl rotting.

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Speaker 1: Basically like taking the.

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Speaker 4: Word girl and then attaching it to another miscellaneous thing,

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Speaker 4: and by putting the word girl in front of it,

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Speaker 4: it was kind of giving it this.

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Speaker 1: Like lighter, unseerious tone.

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Speaker 5: Wait, I need to understand what girl rotting is, because

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Speaker 5: I've heard everything else.

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Speaker 6: This girl riting.

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Speaker 1: So just to talk about I'm gonna get there, Okay.

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Speaker 6: Okay, I need to answer to all these things.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: But to kind of point to this sort of overall trend,

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Speaker 4: there was an article in Forbes that said, quote girl

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Speaker 4: trends predate TikTok itself. In twenty eight nineteen, Rapper Mecan

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Speaker 4: the Stallion popularized the body positive slogan quote hot Girl Summer,

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Speaker 4: which became an internet meme largely through Twitter and Instagram.

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Speaker 4: Quote being a hot girl is about being unapologetically you,

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Speaker 4: having fun, being confident, living your truth, being the life

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Speaker 4: of the party, et cetera. The rapper posted in July,

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Speaker 4: and the phrase inspired the title of her song Hot

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Speaker 4: Girl Summer, which released that August. Its legacy can be

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Speaker 4: seen in some of the TikTok girl trends. And then yeah,

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Speaker 4: so this article points to like hot girl, block girl, dinner,

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Speaker 4: all of these different things. Another kind of article talking

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Speaker 4: about this was from Business Insider, in which they said,

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Speaker 4: quote gen Z is reclaiming the word girl after years

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Speaker 4: of reckoning over people using the term to infantilize women.

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Speaker 4: The fact that women are using the term girl represents

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Speaker 4: a cultural reclamation, conscious or not, after years of reckoning

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Speaker 4: over the term and sexist used. Being called a girl,

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Speaker 4: especially in hierarchical settings like a workplace, can be unintentionally

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Speaker 4: patronizing at best and demeaning at worst.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, like, I totally agree.

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Speaker 4: I think like there obviously is like a very heavy

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Speaker 4: misogynous connotation being called a girl with like things that

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Speaker 4: are associated with girlhood. And I think it is interesting

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Speaker 4: that this kind of has been the response to the

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Speaker 4: fact that like this idea of like the girl boss

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Speaker 4: and girl boss feminism sort of failed and sort of

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Speaker 4: didn't really work out.

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Speaker 1: This is where I think it.

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Speaker 4: Is important to look at what these actual trends are

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Speaker 4: doing and promoting.

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Speaker 1: And Samantha, this is what I'm going to get to

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Speaker 1: your question of what is girl body.

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Speaker 4: Because yeah, it's for one thing obviously, Like if we're

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Speaker 4: rooting this back in like hot Girl Summer, Hot Girl Want,

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Speaker 4: that's one thing. Girl dinner that was sort of the

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Speaker 4: like nexus point of like something that I think started

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Speaker 4: very innocently and started as kind of like a fun

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Speaker 4: thing that took a very dark turn. Go back to

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Speaker 4: that Business Insider article later on. There's a quote that

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Speaker 4: says the past few years of girl based trends, as

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Speaker 4: Kate Lindsay noted in Internet Culture newsletter embedded earlier this week,

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Speaker 4: have shifted. While women were once girl bossing are now

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Speaker 4: talking about rotting in their bedrooms. As Lindsay writes, these

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Speaker 4: types of trends are a counterpoint to the idealized girl

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Speaker 4: aesthetics of the twenty twenties, and in the process they

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Speaker 4: plucked and pulled apart the concept of girlhood through internet memes.

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Speaker 4: Despite some of these trends being pretty mundane, that's actually important.

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Speaker 4: Reducing a girl to a series of increasingly feral behaviors

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Speaker 4: removes some of the terms baggage. So yeah, like what

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Speaker 4: this quote is saying is that like it's sort of

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Speaker 4: rejecting this idea of like girlhood being a not taking

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Speaker 4: it seriously and be kind of rejecting the idea of

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Speaker 4: like the girl boss and the very manicured, very like

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Speaker 4: put together idea of girlhood. But also I think it

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Speaker 4: raises this quote kind of phraises a lot of red

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Speaker 4: flags about this whole kind of girl trend where yes,

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Speaker 4: it is kind of a response to the fact that

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Speaker 4: girl boss feminism.

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Speaker 1: Kind of failed.

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Speaker 4: It ended up sort of promoting this very like unattainable,

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Speaker 4: exhausting idea that was very much rooted in capitalism. So

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Speaker 4: it's promoting the opposite. Girl rotting is the idea that like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: you're gonna come home from work and you're just gonna

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Speaker 4: like lay in bed and watch TV and you're gonna

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Speaker 4: girl rot You're not gonna and it's kind of repackaging

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Speaker 4: it as a way of like, oh, this is just

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Speaker 4: part of girlhood. You're girl rotting, which I don't know.

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Speaker 4: To me, I'm like, maybe that's there's a bigger problem

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Speaker 4: there we need to talk about.

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Speaker 6: Are we talking about depression?

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Speaker 5: Right? This conditional thing that happened, like is that we're

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Speaker 5: calling a girl rotting to make it cute and hopefully like.

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Speaker 1: Let me figure that.

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Speaker 4: And I'm like, that's a symptom of depression or like,

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Speaker 4: maybe that is like a bigger again, if we're talking

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Speaker 4: about all these things being a response to the pact

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Speaker 4: that like girl boss feminism, you know, just sort of

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Speaker 4: ended up perpetuating a lot of these really toxic, hyper

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Speaker 4: capitalist ideas. If girl broading is the opposite of that,

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Speaker 4: you haven't solved the problem. You're still being exhausted by

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Speaker 4: the system. Yeah, so that one was weird. I'm going

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Speaker 4: to pivot to girl math real quick too, because girl

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Speaker 4: math was the other one that I think really started

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Speaker 4: to be like, all right, guys, what are we doing?

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Speaker 4: So from a Washington Post article about girl math, they say, quote,

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Speaker 4: there's no need to have a moral panic about the trend,

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Speaker 4: says Dan Egan, vice president of Behavioral Finance and Investing

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Speaker 4: for Betterment Additional Investment advisory firm. Egan says, what's a

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Speaker 4: place psychology? And it's obvious this has nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with gender kidding aside, girl math represents the type of

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Speaker 4: mental accounting many people do, guys included. It's how we

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Speaker 4: compartmentalize financial decisions. It's also how we just buy overspending

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Speaker 4: end quote. So, yeah, girl math is basically this idea

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Speaker 4: of like there's all these videos being like, oh, if

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Speaker 4: you're paying for something with cash, it's girl math. It

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Speaker 4: doesn't matter if it's like you know, you and your

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Speaker 4: friends going out to dinner and you're just vendowing each

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Speaker 4: other back and forth for like the same cycle of meals.

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Speaker 4: It's not real money because you're like basically just like

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Speaker 4: pay each other back and forth.

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Speaker 1: Which like I get it.

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Speaker 4: And again that quote is saying like this is something

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Speaker 4: that everybody does. It's just psychology is just kind of

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Speaker 4: how we like think about spending. Why are we putting

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Speaker 4: girl in front of it?

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Speaker 1: Though? Like what is the message there?

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Speaker 4: Are we just sort of saying like, oh, it's girl

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Speaker 4: math because girls can't do math. Girls can't like understand

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Speaker 4: finances and like, so later on in that article, they

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Speaker 4: talked to another financial expert, Kia McAllister Young, the director

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Speaker 4: of America Saves, and unlike the first person that they interview,

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Speaker 4: this person's actually a woman, which I don't know, I

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Speaker 4: think that's interesting, but she calls the trend quote amusing

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Speaker 4: and like her only sort of concern is this idea

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Speaker 4: of like, yeah, it's fun, but like, let's make sure

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Speaker 4: this isn't how we're doing all of our budgeting, Like

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Speaker 4: it's important to also budget, but like that's kind of

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Speaker 4: the point is I'm like, yeah, I know, if we're

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Speaker 4: admitting that this isn't a good way of budgeting, this

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Speaker 4: is a this is sort of a fun, silly thing.

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Speaker 4: Why are we so insistent on attaching it to girlhood,

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Speaker 4: on attaching it to this gender binary And then so

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Speaker 4: the sort of the last sort of trend that I

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Speaker 4: want to talk about in these girl whatever trends is

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Speaker 4: and this is the one that I think kind of

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Speaker 4: was a marker to me that this kind of trend

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Speaker 4: is ending and it's sort of starting to reach its downfall.

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Speaker 1: Is this idea of quote like girl hobbies.

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Speaker 6: So there was a.

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Speaker 4: TikTok that went viral, and I'm not going to say

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Speaker 4: the person's user name for this because I have nothing

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Speaker 4: good to say about this TikTok, but basically it was good.

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Speaker 4: It was presenting this idea of like girl hobbies and

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Speaker 4: it was basically saying, oh, if you think you don't

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Speaker 4: have any.

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Speaker 1: Hobbies, no, you just have girl hobbies.

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Speaker 4: And they listed girl hobbies as grabbing a little treat,

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Speaker 4: coffee or pastry, doing our skincare, makeup, hair routines, reorganizing

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Speaker 4: instead of sleeping, hot girl walk, social media, investigative work,

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Speaker 4: shopping in store or online, and so like.

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Speaker 1: This video went viral.

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Speaker 4: And immediately like met a bunch of like a bunch

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Speaker 4: of people did stitches of it, kind of being like whoa, Like, what's.

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Speaker 1: Going on guys?

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Speaker 4: TikTok user Taylor Dade, who uses the at ray lot,

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Speaker 4: posted a response that blew up that I think kind

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Speaker 4: of sum rises it very well. She says, what is

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Speaker 4: going on? What are we saying those are not hobbies?

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Speaker 4: What is going on with this infantalization brain rot trend

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Speaker 4: that has grown women saying no, I don't need hobbies

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Speaker 4: or a personality because I'm a teenage girl and I

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Speaker 4: have to get coffee and a little treat and go shopping.

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Speaker 4: And then she later goes on to say, which I

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Speaker 4: think is another good point. I know everybody who says, hmm,

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Speaker 4: maybe it's kind of heart andful to identify ourselves with

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Speaker 4: extremely sexist stereotypes gets called a pick me.

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Speaker 1: Well, guess what.

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Speaker 4: I love Charlotte Tilbury, Contour wand and Hot Pink Stanley

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Speaker 4: just as much as you guys do. However, I have

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Speaker 4: my own thoughts and opinions and feelings and ambitions and

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Speaker 4: goals and dreams and interests and hobbies and personality outside

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Speaker 4: of consumers bolsh. So yeah, this is wh I think

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Speaker 4: this particular video, the girl hobbies video, and all of

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Speaker 4: the backlash signals to me that.

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Speaker 1: We're kind of like beyond the peak of this.

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Speaker 4: I think people are starting to realize, like it's going

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Speaker 4: a little too far. But also, yeah, let's talk about this,

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Speaker 4: because what are the things that she's calling girl hobbies? Shopping,

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Speaker 4: doing makeup, skincare all of the like we literally just

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Speaker 4: took the like women be shopping and put it in

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Speaker 4: a different pont and like repackage it in a way

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Speaker 4: that so It's kind of like, if the original argument

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Speaker 4: is that we're reclaiming this idea of girlhood and we're

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Speaker 4: taking you know, reclaiming the idea of femininity in girlhood.

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Speaker 1: Is that actually what's happening or are.

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Speaker 4: We just reinforcing these kind of stereotypes and it what like,

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Speaker 4: what is the benefit of also then really really emphasizing

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Speaker 4: this gender binary, this idea that all of this is

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Speaker 4: just this is just part of girlhood. All of these

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Speaker 4: sort of very consumerist, very passive ideas are a part

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Speaker 4: of girlhood.

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Speaker 5: I just want you to know that all these hobbies

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Speaker 5: you listed off was all on our girl talky So oh.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, yeah, I know nineteen eighty right, it was literally

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Speaker 4: lis every single one of those things.

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Speaker 1: Why exactly.

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Speaker 4: That's what I'm saying, though, It's like, what happened guys,

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Speaker 4: like this is the kind of nineteen eighties Like oh yeah,

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Speaker 4: literally it's women be shopping in a different font.

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Speaker 1: What's happening?

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Speaker 5: And also to note all of this makes these are

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Speaker 5: million dollar industries that we're talking.

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Speaker 4: About exactly, which the other part of this is I

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Speaker 4: think it's interesting that this is like, and I've said,

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Speaker 4: I think this is a response to the fact that

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Speaker 4: a lot of people felt that like girl.

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Speaker 1: Boss feminism didn't work.

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Speaker 4: So instead of like becoming becoming the CEO, becoming the

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Speaker 4: you know women, that's really like winning in the in

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Speaker 4: the capitalist financial spirit. Now it's just become about consuming

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Speaker 4: and about consuming the things. And I think this kind

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Speaker 4: of is where it led me to look at this

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Speaker 4: not just as like its own kind of trend of

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Speaker 4: girl dinner, a girl math or hobbies, et cetera, but like,

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Speaker 4: let's also look at the other sort of conversations that

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Speaker 4: are happening around girlhood and around women womanhood and femininity

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Speaker 4: and feminism on TikTok. So this is where we're going

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Speaker 4: to go into the second kind of silo here in

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Speaker 4: my big conspiracy board of all of these different trends

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Speaker 4: that are happening, which is the cycle of fast fashion

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Speaker 4: micro trends that are happening on TikTok. And this idea

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Speaker 4: of like the quote like esthetic, if you're somebody like

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Speaker 4: me who has been very chronically online, you'll know that

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Speaker 4: this word like aesthetic and the idea of having an

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Speaker 4: aesthetic is not like a new thing. And so like

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Speaker 4: when I'm talking about aesthetics, it's not really in an

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Speaker 4: online sense. It's not really like the traditional definition of

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Speaker 4: the word. Usually it is referring to like a personal

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Speaker 4: sense of style that's really tied to fashion and appearance

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Speaker 4: and kind of like you are just like general household decor,

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Speaker 4: room decor kind of stuff. I always really associate it

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Speaker 4: with like kind of twenty fourteen era Tumbler. It was

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Speaker 4: like a big thing to have, like you're very curated aesthetic.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, again, it's not like necessarily a new thing,

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Speaker 4: but I think in a post kind of twenty twenty

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Speaker 4: world where like TikTok has become this like major hub

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Speaker 4: for like culture, the whole idea of having an aesthetic

402
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 4: is really like tookn off, and it's moved away from

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Speaker 4: sort of being a personal sense of style to just

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Speaker 4: being a way to describe this sort of series of

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Speaker 4: trends that are happening, and these trends that have also

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Speaker 4: been happening at like an ever kind of quickening pace

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Speaker 4: and have become more and more connected to the fast

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Speaker 4: fashion industry. So yeah, if you've been on TikTok, you know,

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Speaker 4: the most recent kind of iteration of this has been

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Speaker 4: the mob wife trend, which was its own sort of chaos.

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Speaker 4: That was really funny. I am Italian American. I thought

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Speaker 4: all of the drama around that was really funny. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: so we have the mob bofe trend. Some previous kind

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Speaker 4: of esthetic trends that have happened have been the clean girl,

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Speaker 4: old money, coastal grandma, rock star girlfriend, et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 4: et cetera, and the personal bane of my existence. I

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Speaker 4: could do a whole episode about this, but the cocatte trend, I.

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Speaker 6: Know none of these right now, everybody was.

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Speaker 4: Freaking out, this is what I think, like, this is

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Speaker 4: it's this And then it's the same thing with girl hobbies,

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Speaker 4: where there's one thing that kind of sets it off

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Speaker 4: and as everybody being like, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: What are we doing?

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Speaker 4: So yeah, a lot of the time, not all the time,

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Speaker 4: but usually these kind of aesthetics are tied to like

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Speaker 4: kind of a callback to an earlier subculture, but instead

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Speaker 4: of really being rooted in that subculture, being rooted in

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Speaker 4: like the cultural aspect of it, it's much more focused

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Speaker 4: on like consumable goods like fashion and you know, yeah,

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Speaker 4: just like household decor kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, really, really emphasizing fashion.

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Speaker 4: And we've also seen in a like post kind of lockdown,

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Speaker 4: post twenty twenty world, the like takeoff of the fast

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Speaker 4: fashion industry and which you know had been a thing

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Speaker 4: for a while, but it really really kind of reached

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Speaker 4: some new heights in like in the sort of post

437
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 4: twenty twenty world, we've seen these brands like Shean really

438
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 4: take off. And this has been like perfect sort of

439
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 4: like it's been this perfect storm of for these trends

440
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 4: to happen, and for these trends to happen it like

441
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 4: a faster and faster pace. So what has happened is

442
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 4: having an aesthetic has kind of moved away from being

443
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 4: a personal sense of style and it has instead become

444
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 4: keeping up with the latest trend, keeping up with the

445
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 4: latest sort of hyper specific micro trend, the clean girl,

446
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 4: the rock star girlfriend, the mob wife, the whatever.

447
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Coquette, which is yeah, I have a lot

448
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: of things to say about Coquette.

449
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

450
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 4: And so this is where I think there's two concerning

451
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 4: things here. One is that yes, this is very tied

452
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 4: to fast fashion, and it is very tied to these

453
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 4: corporations that are relying on sweatshop labor that are relying

454
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 4: on all these sort of very terrible practices, both on

455
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 4: a humanitarian level and on an environmental level. And also

456
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 4: we need to look at what is actually being kind

457
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 4: of like promoted at least trends, because well, again, yes,

458
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 4: it is fun to have like a fun little aesthetic

459
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 4: that you know, it doesn't necessarily have to have any

460
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 4: meaning to it. There are some sort of connecting threads

461
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 4: through all of this that I think are a little

462
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 4: bit concerning.

463
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: So like mob wife, rock star girlfriend.

464
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 4: These were two that really stuck out to me because

465
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 4: I was like, why it's so weird that they're emphasizing

466
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 4: the like girlfriend, you're not the thing, but you're the

467
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 4: girlfriend of the rock star, you're the mob wife. Coquette, Like,

468
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 4: let's be real, it is the coquette trend is rooted

469
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 4: in a like kind of cult around youth and in

470
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 4: a lot of these very like pedophilic ideas about beauty.

471
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 4: In women's beauty, it is like rooted in like the

472
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 4: kind of Lolita trends. And again that's to say, like

473
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 4: you can enjoy this sort of stuff in this sort

474
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 4: of fashion and not have it not be that serious.

475
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 4: But this becoming as popular as it is and being

476
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 4: something that is very much rooted in a lot of

477
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 4: like very misogynistic ideas about beauty. That gets a little

478
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 4: bit concerning. And then sort of we're seeing some other

479
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 4: micro trends that I think are interesting. I don't understand

480
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 4: what these are still, but there was like the tomato

481
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 4: girl and the pickle girl and whatever, and something that

482
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 4: I was seeing happen over and over againness all of

483
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 4: these are they're very much rooted in like girl, clean girl,

484
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 4: mob wife girlfriend, all of these things. They're very much

485
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 4: rooted in this like gender binary, and a lot of

486
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 4: times they are like expressions of hyperfemininity.

487
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 3: You know.

488
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 4: Coquette is like really leaning into hyperfemininity. Even the mob

489
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 4: wife trend like leans very much into hyperfemininity.

490
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: So I think it's just it's interesting too.

491
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 4: And one of those articles that I was talking about

492
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 4: originally that we're talking about girl math and girl hobbies

493
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 4: and all this, we're talking about how it's a rejection

494
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 4: of these kind of constant trends, but at the same time,

495
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 4: these sort of trends are also rooting themselves in this

496
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 4: idea of girlhood and femininity and this is what it

497
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 4: is to be a woman.

498
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: This is what it is to be a girl.

499
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 4: So this is where I'm going to jump in and

500
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 4: like just acknowledge the fact that so like I personally.

501
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: Don't identify as a woman.

502
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 4: I identify as like non binary and gender queer and uh,

503
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 4: trans masculine. But that being said, I think like that

504
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 4: is kind of the thing that makes this really stand

505
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 4: out to me, because all of these trends are so

506
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 4: so rooted in the gender binary and in emphasizing the

507
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 4: gender binary, and I think, especially at a time where

508
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 4: there have been so many violent fs to reinforce that

509
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 4: gender binary, I think we need to be really critical

510
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 4: about how we are actually talking about those ideas and

511
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 4: talking about something as you know, supposedly silly is just

512
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 4: like your whatever personal sense of style, a fashion trend,

513
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 4: but how are we talking about that in terms of

514
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 4: like the gender binary, And so to really look at that,

515
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 4: let's talk real quick about like the extreme version of

516
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 4: this gender binary, which is the trad wife. And you

517
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 4: guys just did a really awesome episode with bridget about

518
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 4: tradwife and trodwife culture that I would definitely recommend checking out.

519
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go.

520
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 4: Super into this idea because I think, like I'm definitely

521
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 4: preaching a little bit to the choir here about like

522
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 4: why the whole idea of the trodwife and the trodwife

523
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 4: image is harmful. I think we need to look at

524
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 4: why we're seeing this trend now and what it's claiming

525
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 4: to be in a response to, versus like what it

526
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 4: actually kind of is a response to, because honestly, I

527
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 4: think this whole like tradwife ideal and image is rotten

528
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 4: in a lot of the same anxieties that these other

529
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 4: trends are also rooted in, because the tradwife phenomena is

530
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 4: kind of posing it. What it does is it poses

531
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 4: itself as in opposition in response to girl boss feminism, right,

532
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 4: It is this idea that women we have somehow been

533
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 4: duped by feminism into going into the workforce, and really

534
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 4: what is empowering is to go back into the homes

535
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 4: and you know, get married and hoop out a bunch

536
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 4: of kids and provide for those kids and whatever like

537
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 4: all of that. And I think if you look at again,

538
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 4: the whole idea of like girl rotting, girl math, girl hobbies,

539
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 4: all of that is also a response to the fact

540
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 4: that a lot of women did not feel fulfilled by

541
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 4: girl boss feminism. So TikTok user Caitlin, it's c ai

542
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 4: il Yn with like a period in between each letter.

543
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 4: I'll link the original video in the notes. But she

544
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 4: made a really great video I think breaking this down

545
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 4: and connecting a lot of these things that I'm talking

546
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 4: about and talking about it in the context of the

547
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 4: child wife movement. So in a video called Coquette Capitalism,

548
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,479
Speaker 4: which I will link in the notes, she starts by

549
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 4: quoting a tweet from fashion and culture writer Ryan Finn

550
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 4: that states bows and ribbons are symbolic of twenty twenty

551
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 4: three being the year of the girl plus useless thing,

552
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 4: when it should have been the year of the girl feminism. Instead,

553
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 4: we've had the Barbie film rebranding girl boss culture through

554
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 4: uplifting successful billionaire capitalist women girl math being used to

555
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 4: advertise at the same time the reproductive rights are being stripped,

556
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 4: the gender wage gap is awful, and we lack a

557
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 4: globally interconnected feminist movement and the bows and ribbons that

558
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 4: sort of trend is related to the coquette trend, just

559
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 4: her context, and.

560
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: This is why I'm critical of that argument.

561
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 4: Like girl Dinner and girl Math and girl whatever, it's

562
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 4: somehow like reclaiming this idea of girlhood and femininity which

563
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 4: had previously not been taken seriously by the patriarchy, because

564
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 4: we need to look at what is actually being claimed

565
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 4: as part of girlhood. Caitlin then goes on to talk

566
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 4: about how, in addition to the popularity of like the

567
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 4: coquette trend and this return to more like girlish esthetics,

568
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 4: very traditional feminine aesthetics, which was all these aesthetic trends

569
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 4: I was talking about. Quote, twenty twenty three was also

570
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 4: the year of girl math, and girl math was juxtaposed

571
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 4: against the male Roman Empire, where in pretty overt ways,

572
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 4: we're saying through pop culture and memes that girls can't

573
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 4: do math, or girls have their own special kind of

574
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 4: math called girl math. Meanwhile boys or men are constantly

575
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 4: thinking about history.

576
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: They're thinking about the Roman Empire.

577
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 4: She then says, quote this happening in the same year

578
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 4: as the rise of the state home girlfriend, the soft life,

579
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 4: and the Sprinkle Sprinkle, which all of that I'm kind

580
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 4: of putting under the like trodwife umbrella, because I think

581
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 4: the state at home girlfriend is sort of the like

582
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 4: more secular, slightly less crysto fascist.

583
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: Version of the trod wife. But yeah quote.

584
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 4: The implicit argument behind all of these being that contemporary

585
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 4: feminism has failed to provide women with material well being.

586
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 4: The real way to undermine the patriarchy, or to make

587
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 4: the patriarchy work for you, is to get a rich

588
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 4: man to pund your lifestyle and never have to work again.

589
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 4: So we're seeing in real time the infantilization of women

590
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 4: through pop culture and memes. The image of the girl

591
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 4: boss or girl power of five to ten years ago

592
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 4: in the early to mid two thousand times is dead,

593
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 4: particularly as many of these women owned millennial core companies

594
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 4: like Nasty Gal and Glossier experience their corporate downfall and

595
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 4: honestly like, yeah, I agree, I think that she's onto

596
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 4: something there. So she then goes on to say we've

597
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 4: ended up with bimbo feminism and girl math not because

598
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 4: women believe that they themselves are stupid, but because they're

599
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 4: tired and because the promise of girl boss feminism that

600
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 4: we've seen for the last several decades didn't deliver. The

601
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 4: reason that girl boss feminism wasn't successful in challenging the

602
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 4: patriarchy was because it was not anti capitalist and Instead,

603
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 4: it viewed capitalism as an avenue through which women could

604
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 4: find liberation. For the vast majority of women who belong

605
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 4: to the working class and have to continue to go

606
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,479
Speaker 4: to work in order to pay their bills and survive

607
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 4: in capitalist society, girl boss feminism did not think for

608
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 4: them except maybe replace their boss or their CEO with

609
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 4: a woman in a hand suit. The material conditions of

610
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 4: the vast majority of women didn't change as a result

611
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 4: of girl boss feminism, and after several years of significant

612
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 4: material challenges, including the pandemic and shrinkulation, it's no wonder

613
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 4: why people might want to retreat back into I'm baby

614
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 4: and I just want to be taken care of. Unfortunately,

615
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 4: this is just a band aid or a short term

616
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 4: coping mechanism two larger structural problems of capitalism and patriarchy

617
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 4: end quote so.

618
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: To summon up.

619
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 4: I think it's not a coincidence that we're saying the

620
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 4: tradwife stayed home, girlfriend, girl, insert word trend, and like

621
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 4: highly binary fashion trends all happening on TikTok right now.

622
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 4: I think this is all kind of a respect to

623
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 4: this crisis of femininity and the fact that like the

624
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 4: world is a very very scary place right now. Like

625
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 4: one of the things that she said in that is

626
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 4: that I get it. It is like there's a lot

627
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 4: of really weird mess of stuff happening. We are entering

628
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 4: an election year. There are so many, so many scary

629
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 4: possibilities and realities that are happening, particularly for women and

630
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 4: for non men, and so it makes sense to want

631
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 4: to seek that comfort, to want to go back into

632
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 4: this idea of like self and fantilizing I'm.

633
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: Just a girl. I'm not gonna you know, I'm.

634
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 4: The whole I'm just a twenty four year old teenage

635
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 4: girl thing. I think, especially for a lot of us

636
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 4: that are at like, you know, I'm in my mid

637
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 4: twenties right now. The pandemic happened at a time when

638
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 4: I would have been reaching a lot of those like milestones,

639
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 4: and I that's of experience is.

640
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: Sort of disrupted for me.

641
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 4: I think a lot of people are feeling sort of lost,

642
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 4: and I think all of these things are responses to

643
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 4: that feeling of being lost. And it's understandable, but again,

644
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 4: it is not a solution. It is a band aid.

645
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 4: I think the importance of talking about this right now

646
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 4: is that if we lean too hard on all these ideas.

647
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: If we lean too hard of this idea of girlhood.

648
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 4: Being silly and light and this very like consumerist idea

649
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 4: of girlhood, it's just going to end up. We're just

650
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 4: going to end up the same place that we were

651
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 4: in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, where people were starting

652
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 4: to realize that, like the girl Boss, feminism also didn't work.

653
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think again, there's two main concerns here.

654
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 4: One is this sort of leaning into consumerism as a

655
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 4: form of.

656
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: Liberation or self actualization.

657
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 4: The second is this really really strong emphasis on the

658
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 4: gender binary and on everything being very very gendered, whether

659
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 4: that's something like you know, food which is what we

660
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 4: need to survive, to hobbies and fashion and all of that,

661
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 4: all of that happening at a time when there is

662
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 4: efforts to criminalize any sort of deviance from the gender binary.

663
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: So yeah, all of that is.

664
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 4: To say, these are all very There's a lot of

665
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 4: weird stuff happening. There's a lot of weird stuff happening

666
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 4: on TikTok. I don't know what the solution is.

667
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: I think.

668
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 4: Again, I understand why this moment is happening. I understand

669
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 4: what these things are responding to. But I also think

670
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 4: it is indicative of the fact that something is like

671
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 4: very wrong right now and people are just kind of

672
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 4: scrambling for solutions. And yeah, that's where we're at.

673
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 5: There's a there's a lot of obviously, like I'm sitting

674
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 5: here trying to remember any of these trends. I'm like,

675
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 5: I don't I'm on TikTok and i don't know these

676
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 5: three things. And I'm so sad that I'm not caught

677
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 5: up with the world slash the kids, you kids.

678
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: You know what.

679
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 4: I don't even like I can I call my I

680
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 4: don't know if I can still call myself a kid,

681
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 4: But I'm not a kid of that.

682
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 6: I'm saying this in this ideal of like I old, it's.

683
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 4: Well, that's part of it is that all of this

684
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 4: stuff is moving very fast, and I think that is

685
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 4: definitely an element of it. All of these these trends

686
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 4: are moving very fast. These ideas are moving fast, These

687
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 4: images of these idealized images of womanhood or of girlhood

688
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 4: are moving very fast. And you know, like you said before,

689
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 4: that is very convenient for a lot of these companies

690
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 4: that are making this clothing or this whatever, or these

691
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 4: candles for girl therapy or whatever.

692
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 3: You know.

693
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 4: And again, this is why I keep going back to

694
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 4: capitalism and what happens when we look at capitalism as

695
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 4: a route for as a route for liberation, because we

696
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 4: tried that with the Girl Boss feminism and it didn't work.

697
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 4: And now we're trying a different route, which is through

698
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 4: consumption and through consumerism, and that also is something that

699
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 4: I think is going to I think we're already seeing

700
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 4: it start to kind of fall apart, and I think

701
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 4: it could lead us in a very dangerous direction. And also,

702
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 4: capitalism is always going to be have an interest in

703
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 4: upholding the gender binary, you know, like it is easier

704
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 4: to sell things to people if they are very highly gendered.

705
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 4: It's easier to advertise things that are this is about girlhood,

706
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 4: this is about whatever.

707
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: So there definitely.

708
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 4: Needs to be some more sort of critical thinking, I think,

709
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 4: around gendering all of these ideas so so explicitly.

710
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 5: Well, it's also just a reminder that capitalism and marketing

711
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 5: know how to take advantage of something, and so they

712
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 5: are going to make money whichever way possible. But I

713
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 5: think it's also important to remember that things like Girl Boss,

714
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 5: which seemed cute and empowering at the beginning. Really, when

715
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 5: it did benefit women, it was white heterosexual women kind

716
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 5: of some conversations about what happened on Facebook and having

717
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 5: big books readen about motivating women to be leaders. It

718
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 5: was aimed and targeted towards one specific type of woman,

719
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 5: which also is that same conversation of like when women

720
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 5: talk about why can't we go back to the days

721
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 5: where we didn't have to wor feminism failed us, when

722
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 5: in actuality, yes, white feminism failed you, because if we

723
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,959
Speaker 5: had actually looked at the black community and the people

724
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 5: of color during the big waves of feminism in the seventies,

725
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 5: we would have a different conversation about choice rather than

726
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 5: about work and not being what they would say, housewife

727
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 5: and all that. And there's that conversation who was left

728
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 5: out and who was not being seen? And that's in

729
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 5: the same conversation too, because when we talk about cute

730
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 5: girly things, it's typically white women that I see or

731
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 5: white girls, and it's a cute idea for a minute.

732
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 5: Then you start thinking about the repercussions of because people

733
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 5: see this as cute and just a fun trend, you

734
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 5: don't see the underlying thing of like, oh, eventually this

735
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 5: will be used against whomever in this ideal of Okay,

736
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 5: we can fix ourselves. We become more like these people

737
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 5: and doing these girl and dinner, which every time you

738
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 5: say that, that ring, that that jingle is in my head.

739
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: I can't get rid of it.

740
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, constantly every time, and that forever will

741
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 5: be in my head. But like who who it is

742
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 5: benefiting and what the ideal type or like lifestyle is,

743
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 5: and it's usually trended after again sis, upper middle class

744
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 5: white women. And that's that conversation of like, yeah, this

745
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 5: doesn't seem bad. But then when you really look at

746
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 5: who is being normalized and who is being upheld as

747
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 5: this is the status quo, it's very dangerous.

748
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 4: As you were saying, Yeah, and like what I said

749
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 4: at the top two been talking about girl Dinner.

750
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: I think it is something that started totally innocently.

751
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 4: I think it honestly, like I understand the arguments for

752
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 4: why people enjoyed it. But once you put a trend

753
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 4: out there into the world, like you lose control of it.

754
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 4: I think like the last kind of big example of

755
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 4: this was the whole like bimbo trend in bimbo feminism

756
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 4: on TikTok, and like that is something that when it.

757
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,479
Speaker 1: Started, like I was like, oh my god, I love this.

758
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: This is so fun. I think a lot of the

759
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: early kind of creators around that.

760
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 4: Were doing some really fun content, but it was something

761
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 4: that you know, a was co opted by these corporations

762
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 4: that were like, oh, look, another opportunity to sell a

763
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 4: certain type of clothing or whatever.

764
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: Two people sell a lifestyle to people.

765
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 4: And then also if it's an idea that is rooted

766
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 4: in very misogynistic stereotypes, like the idea of like the

767
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 4: bimbo reclaim, something can turn into just reinforcing those stereotypes

768
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 4: real quick. And I think we're seeing that now with

769
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 4: all these girl trends.

770
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 5: Right And also with that, we should be holding social

771
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 5: media responsible as well, because we see who is trending

772
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 5: and that makes a difference of why these trends are successful.

773
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 5: And again, it's also kind of like the whole fact

774
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 5: that a lot of black creators will talk about the

775
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 5: fact that their stuff is suppressed while qts white girls

776
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 5: and I love I love you my SOLSI please don't

777
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 5: think I'm being mean, but it like statistically as it's

778
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 5: shown that the QT white girls are probably going to

779
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,439
Speaker 5: be at the forefront of trending, not just white girls,

780
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 5: but white people in general.

781
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 6: So just spreading that out.

782
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 5: But like, that's that conversation is like, are we also

783
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 5: talking about what social media is allowing to be the

784
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 5: top of the trend and why it is the top

785
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 5: of the trend and who is being suppressed in these

786
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 5: conversations as well, because you know, there's a lot to

787
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 5: the algorithm, but also algorithm that is created or manipulated

788
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 5: by these companies, you know, Instagram and Facebook. Husband repeatedly

789
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 5: called out for that, and TikTok is slowly getting repeatedly

790
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 5: called out for that. But it's a it's a conversation

791
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 5: in this as well, because yes, that girl had no

792
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 5: intention I'm sure of like making this. She's like, why

793
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,439
Speaker 5: a y'all talking about me? I just wanted to eat

794
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 5: cheese and bread and I feel you. I feel you.

795
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 5: That's all I want to do is eat bread. But like,

796
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 5: in the end, who is being raised on these platforms

797
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 5: or who are being more noted or being seen up

798
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 5: more often? And in that conversation as well, but also

799
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 5: I still need you to explain to me what Coquette

800
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 5: is I'm still lost.

801
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 1: Oh this is yeah, I probably shouldn't have included.

802
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,399
Speaker 4: A little thing about that, so confused, I might come

803
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 4: on here into a whole episode about all of my

804
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,240
Speaker 4: various issues with cocatte. Coqutte is one of those things

805
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 4: where again I think when we talk about is you know,

806
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 4: criticizing a sort of cultural thing, if this is a

807
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 4: you know, type of fashion or style that you are

808
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 4: interested in, if something that you like, totally understand that.

809
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 4: But at the same time, I think we really need

810
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 4: to examine, like what a lot of it is rooted.

811
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: In Coquette is Basically.

812
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 4: This is the other problem because the thing that happens

813
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 4: on TikTok with a lot of these trends is they

814
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 4: start off as one thing and then they just become

815
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 4: like much broader and like I think coquette is definitely

816
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 4: Like I saw something the other day that was like

817
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 4: a bunch of very like runge style clothing that somebody

818
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 4: called coquette, and that is not coquette at all.

819
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: But coquette is basically it is it's it's rooted in like.

820
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 4: Stuff that is I hang on, I'm trying to find

821
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 4: like a good definition of it because I'm looking at

822
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 4: like the pictures. Yeah, it's all very it's like pink

823
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 4: and a lot of bows, and it's rooted in this

824
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 4: idea of like girlhood and childhood.

825
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 5: So it's just like a pastel version of the Lolita, right.

826
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 4: It's it's it's okay, it's a it's yeah, that's good

827
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 4: way I put it.

828
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: Get it's like pasta Lolita fashion. It is.

829
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 4: The whole kind of trend is very connected to like

830
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 4: the Lolita trend, which again that's where I get into

831
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 4: I think, I think it is important to examine how

832
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 4: some of this is kind of rooted in these very

833
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 4: like these cults of youth and particularly around like young

834
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 4: girls in girlhood and how that is sexualized. It became

835
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 4: very pop Yeah, at the end of twenty twenty three,

836
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 4: this became like very very popular on TikTok. If you

837
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 4: guys saw there are a lot of like videos of

838
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 4: people putting bows on like everyday objects and being like

839
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 4: my favorite one was somebody who took like a pair

840
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 4: of like weights and like put a bow on them

841
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 4: and was like their cocatte now. Like but again, like

842
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 4: with that, it's fun and it's silly, but also anytime

843
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 4: we're using a trend that is or a idea that

844
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 4: is like rooted in a lot of complex, mildly problematic,

845
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 4: you know, to extremely problematic ideas, and it just opens

846
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 4: the door for a lot of stuff to happen.

847
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, I got to I yes, and I see that

848
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 5: it is aligned with that conversation about soft.

849
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 4: Girl, Yeah, which I think also I read what you

850
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 4: said about like all of these trends also being like

851
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 4: you know, when you look at them up on TikTok,

852
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 4: when you see the stuff that's trending on TikTok, a

853
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 4: lot of the times it's white women. A lot of

854
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,439
Speaker 4: the times it is like conventionally attractive cis white women. Yeah,

855
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 4: that's also part of the conversation, and that is also

856
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 4: part of like the idea of you know, if this

857
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 4: is the image of girlhood that we're creating, and this

858
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 4: is the image of womanhood that we're creating, it's very white,

859
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 4: it's very it's very much rooted and traditional ideas about beauty,

860
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 4: and uh, yeah, it is. It's it's definitely it's rooted

861
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 4: in whiteness, it's rooted in heteropatriarchy, it's rooted in TRANSASOCNE. Yeah,

862
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 4: and that again is an issue of like the apps

863
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 4: more than I think it is these individual creators.

864
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: One thing that I did think was interesting that I

865
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:29,840
Speaker 1: did not realize this.

866
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 4: So the original girl Dinner, the person that did the

867
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 4: video that was like girl dinner or medieval peasant food

868
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 4: or whatever, which I didn't even realize that was how

869
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 4: it started, that was made by a white woman. The

870
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 4: woman that did the one with the little song with

871
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 4: the like girl dinner, that was actually a black woman

872
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 4: that did it, that made the original video. Which but

873
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 4: again I think about this conversation was interesting because I

874
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 4: had not seen that original video until I like went

875
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 4: and looked it up and was like, who is the

876
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 4: first person to.

877
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 1: Like make that sound?

878
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 4: So I don't know, maybe there's there's definitely something there too, but.

879
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe the original I saw was also a white girl.

880
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 5: And then that's who got a credited who got credited

881
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 5: with it?

882
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 4: For what I've said, That's what I'm saying is that

883
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 4: she got the credit for it, which she did, you know,

884
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 4: make the original video using term girl dinner. But yeah,

885
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 4: like I that I it took me much longer to

886
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 4: find out who made the song.

887
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the jingle. The jingle, the jingle is a jingle.

888
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 6: In my head because and also now I want meat, and.

889
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: Geez, you can make that happen. I think you can

890
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: make that happen.

891
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 6: I'm gonna have to go to a grocery store.

892
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 1: Well, I do think there's a lot more we could

893
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: talk about.

894
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 2: There's a lot of I've been thinking about this a

895
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 2: lot too, about the nick Well, I'm not on TikTok,

896
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 2: so this was all new to me.

897
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,760
Speaker 1: But I've been thinking a lot about the idea.

898
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 2: Of cause the first episode I ever did it was

899
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 2: bad feminism, and it was about like if you're not

900
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 2: a perfect feminist and you're not a feminist. But now

901
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 2: I feel like we've gone in the other way, which

902
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: is like you.

903
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: Don't have to do anything to be a feminist.

904
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 4: You well, it's it's the other extreme.

905
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 1: It's the other extreme.

906
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 4: You could be a you could again spend your day

907
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 4: grow rotting in bed, and that's feminism.

908
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

909
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: The thing is, like I get it in terms of

910
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 2: let's be honest about what is killing us with this

911
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 2: trying to succeed, But at the same time, like if

912
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: you're just like eh, doing this, that's not the same thing.

913
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 4: Right, There needs to be a middle ground, I think

914
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 4: is the it's the big thing here, like right, like.

915
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 2: You can you can say like I'm not the perfect feminist,

916
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean you can be like, oh, well

917
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 2: I'm not the perfect feminist like that. There's a difference

918
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 2: between that. So I would love for you to come

919
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 2: back and I could tell.

920
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 4: You, yeah, something that I've interesting too, Just to add

921
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 4: one more quick thing in there. So and I brought

922
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 4: up this term and talking about one of the TikTok's earlier,

923
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 4: but the idea of like any sort of criticism of

924
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 4: these trends, you're labeled to pick me. And I think

925
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 4: so the podcast Rehashed did a really good episode about

926
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 4: the idea of a pick me and kind of how

927
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 4: that term has evolved.

928
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: But I think.

929
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 4: The whole idea of what a pick me is has

930
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 4: also like kind of derailed on TikTok and on social media,

931
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 4: and it has become like any sort of rejection of

932
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 4: hyperfemininity gets you labeled as a pick me, like saying

933
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 4: like it even got so far as to people, you know,

934
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 4: when the whole like Barbie Heimer thing was happening, it

935
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 4: was like, oh if you're like not excited to go

936
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 4: see the Barbie movie or like a pick me, And.

937
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know, Like people just have different

938
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 1: tastes in movies.

939
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 4: Sometimes that doesn't really seem like a reason to be Yeah,

940
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 4: or like women that don't want to wear makeup, I'm

941
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 4: I don't. Again, I don't I find as a woman either,

942
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 4: Like I don't really wear makeup. That's not because I

943
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 4: think there's something inherently wrong with wanting to wear makeup.

944
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 4: That's a personal choice. That does not make me a

945
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 4: pick me because that is not something that like I

946
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 4: want to do. But yeah, there's and I think that

947
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 4: that is interesting in when we're talking about these sort

948
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 4: of returning to these very very extreme binary ideas of

949
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 4: what womanhood is, any sort of rejection of that femininity

950
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 4: gets you labeled to pick me, which I think is

951
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 4: interesting and concerning. Yeah, there's many many things here that

952
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 4: I will probably pig back on to talk about.

953
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah, we might need you to back on just

954
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 6: to explain trends to us.

955
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: To be honest, honestly, that'd be great because.

956
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 6: That might be I'm like, I'm going to send you

957
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 6: these things, explain these to me.

958
00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: I'm so down.

959
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 4: I don't I barely understand half of these. By if

960
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 4: somebody is seriously like, what is going on with the

961
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 4: whole like pickle girl tomato girl thing, if.

962
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: Somebody wants to explain to me what that means. I

963
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 1: have a theory about tomato girl. Tomato.

964
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 6: They just not like pickles with tomatoes.

965
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's pro pickles and tomatoes. Okay.

966
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 5: The tomato girl has something to do with the girl

967
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 5: that came on saying that tomatoes make you fat and

968
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 5: then everybody got mad at her.

969
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 6: Oh that could be about It's probably right, but I

970
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 6: don't know. That's what I remember, like that was a

971
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 6: huge thing.

972
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 2: I was going to go back into the history where

973
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: people used to call hot girls tomatoes. That's where hot

974
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: tomato really.

975
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: Ye, that makes way more sense.

976
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 6: I don't know, But yours makes more sense.

977
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 1: Well, I mean mine makes more logical sense. Yeah, I

978
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:50,879
Speaker 1: didn't know that makes sense.

979
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 6: Yours makes more sense. Mine makes just more timely. Yes,

980
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 6: we you know.

981
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: This is what is the magic of our our team

982
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 2: is that we all come from different We none of

983
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 2: us know the answer, but we all have theories.

984
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 5: I know, the person who pickles everything and sells on

985
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 5: the basis you can pickle anything.

986
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 6: That's the only pickle person I know.

987
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:19,720
Speaker 1: Fine, find the pickle.

988
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 4: You know.

989
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: We're going off the rails.

990
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 5: We are.

991
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 6: Completely literal. So I'm hungry. Apparently Stunk has been growling

992
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 6: the entire time, So.

993
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: Time to have some girl dinner. Just keep chilling. These

994
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: questions must be answered, Joey.

995
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,479
Speaker 6: We need you, I think we need you back on First,

996
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 6: we have to have you research those things.

997
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 3: Do you know?

998
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 6: Actually did you say you did know? Did we cut

999
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 6: you off?

1000
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 5: That?

1001
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 6: What a pickle girl and a tomato girl?

1002
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 4: Well, it has more to do with and this is

1003
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 4: where these are ones. I'm like, I'm not is concerned.

1004
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 4: I think these are more just like fun little trends

1005
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 4: people are doing.

1006
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: But it's like tied to.

1007
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 4: I like, it is still very much tied to like

1008
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 4: aesthetics and like how you're dressing, how you're doing your makeup,

1009
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 4: all of that. I just don't exactly know what it

1010
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 4: is because what is that? What is tomato? How does

1011
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 4: that translate into fashion?

1012
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 5: But?

1013
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 6: Oh, I think Annie's moron than I am.

1014
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: In nineteen twenties, tomato girl not tomato.

1015
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 4: According to People magazine, it says being a tomato girl

1016
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 4: calls for a hyper specific wardrobe too. Must have pieces

1017
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 4: include picnic appropriate dresses, flowey linen pants, headscarves, woven handbags,

1018
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 4: and more. The trend is also big on patterns, whether

1019
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 4: it being chimham I'm sorry, I'm not I don't want

1020
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 4: to say that, or pinst yeah, or pinstripe islands or florals,

1021
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 4: and of course artsy food graphics.

1022
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: So again it is like it's tied to uh fashion

1023
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: like fashion trends. Yeah, Ingham, okay, Dingham.

1024
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 6: That is an old schools Okay, I think that's nineteen twenties.

1025
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 6: And I think you're right, Annie.

1026
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 4: Right, I was gonna say that's yeah. I think it's

1027
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 4: it's it's it's like yeah image. They're very like going

1028
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 4: for a picnic, going to like this like old fashioned.

1029
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 4: But yeah, it is interesting that all of these kind

1030
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,879
Speaker 4: of micro identities that we've created for ourselves are all

1031
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 4: very very rooted in consumerism and buying things to show

1032
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 4: our sense of self.

1033
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: Yes, identity, you must buy it exactly.

1034
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 6: I'm just gonna pick a random food and be that

1035
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 6: girl too.

1036
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: Let me fine one, oh start a transamitta, Oh god,

1037
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: don't do it. The whole episode is about control.

1038
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,399
Speaker 4: Actually start like the latest iteration of like the tried

1039
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 4: wife whenever.

1040
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 6: Korean again real racist, could be very Korean. I'm like,

1041
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 6: well that went bad, that went alright? Four everybody?

1042
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 2: Oh no, oh, well, well on that note, we have

1043
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: quite a lot more we could discuss later. Thank you

1044
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 2: so much Joey for coming on. We always love having you.

1045
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 4: Of course, always love to join y'all, love to get

1046
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 4: to explain weird Internet stuff to you guys.

1047
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:03,399
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, giving us in the loop.

1048
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 1: So thank you. Where can the good listeners find you, Joey?

1049
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:15,320
Speaker 4: You can find me on Instagram or the app that

1050
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 4: I'm still calling Twitter at pat not prat that is

1051
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 4: p a t T n ot p r.

1052
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 5: A t T.

1053
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 4: If you want to hear more of the work that

1054
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 4: I do, you can check out After Lives Lelane Planco's Story,

1055
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 4: which just finished up its first season. I also am

1056
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 4: an occasional guest host on There Are No Girls on

1057
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 4: the Internet slash producer there with Bridget. If you want

1058
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 4: to hear more, specifically weird internet news and Internet culture stuff,

1059
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 4: definitely check out that show.

1060
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, definitely check that out. Thank you again, as always,

1061
00:57:55,360 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 2: Joey for doing all this research and listeners. If you

1062
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 2: would like to contact us, you can. Her email is

1063
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 2: Stephania Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com. We are on Twitter

1064
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 2: at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at

1065
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 2: stuff When Never Told You. We have a tea public

1066
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:12,479
Speaker 2: store and we have a book you can get wherever

1067
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 2: you get your books. Thanks as always to our super

1068
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 2: producer Christina, executive producer Maya, and our contriuter Joey who's

1069
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 2: here yay, thank you, and thanks.

1070
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: To you for listening.

1071
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 2: Stephane Never Told You is production of iHeartRadio. For more

1072
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 2: podcast from my Heart Radio, you can check out the

1073
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast wherever you listen to your

1074
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: favorite shows