1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace. Yes man, my uncle on France. 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: I'nial Fishers, Scientistic and I just walked in her office 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: and I think somebody had killed somebody upstairs in her office. Okay, 4 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 1: what makes you think somebody kills him about? He's laying 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: there on the ground covered up and there's blood all 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: over up the floor in the office. Okay, So what's 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: the address there? Seventy three eighty three and fire drive. Okay, 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: if it's somebody that worked there, yeah, it looks like 9 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: her name is Michelle Marketby. She usually comes in early 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: on Mondays and they got her like her whole body's 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: covered with plastic and that you can't see her head 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: or anything and obviously's dead, right, yes, sir, yes man? Okank? 13 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: What to name? Yes for us? Okay, Hello, somebody was 14 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: in there? But time did you get in? Faber' clarkley 15 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: If people come in usually Michelle on Mondays, get your 16 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: seven o'clock I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank 17 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: you for being with us. What happened to Michelle might 18 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: be a gorgeous young mother of two found dead at 19 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: the laboratory where she worked. The mystery intensifies might be 20 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: leaving behind two little girls ages seven and ten. Joining 21 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: me an all star panel. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 22 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: jacksonvill State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet 23 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: on Amazon rightnown California psycho Alice, doctor Bethany Marshall, judge, 24 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: lawyer anchor. You can find her at asked You, Wilcot 25 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: dot com and Crime online dot com. Investigative reporter Robin Willinski, 26 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: the author of Beautiful Life CSI behind the Casey Anthony 27 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 1: Trial Robert Willinski. They find this young mom of two 28 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,559 Speaker 1: covered in blood, in a pool of blood at her workplace. 29 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: My very first question is where was her husband. Her 30 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: husband is at home with the girls. Mommy is at 31 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: work where she is the HR human resources manager at 32 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: Thermo Fisher Scientific Nancy. This is a company. She's the 33 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: HR manager a lot of men that work there. She 34 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: does the payroll and she organizes oral the personnel matters. 35 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: She is not involved in the science or the packing 36 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: at the company. So in HR you get a lot 37 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: of enemies. We all know that. To doctor Bethany Marshall, 38 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: LA psycho analyst, HR, the dreaded to syllables in every corporation, 39 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, human resources. When they come down the hall, 40 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: everybody look busy and starts smiling because everything is awesome. 41 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: Everything is cool when you're part of a team. That's 42 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: what happens when HR strolls in. So Miss Mogby Michelle 43 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: sixteen years in HR at Thermophisher Scientific, a biotech company HR. 44 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: Why does everybody hate HR so much? HR is the 45 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: person to whom anybody who has a dispute with another 46 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: employee reports their dissatisfaction. HR is like mommy in a 47 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: big dysfunctional work family. HR knows where all the body's buried, 48 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: knows all the secrets. HR, the person who works in HR, 49 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: can really get you in trouble if she's not on 50 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: your side. So I actually have a few patients who 51 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: are in HR, and they really struggle with mental health 52 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: issues because they're always reprimanding people. They're the person that 53 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: if somebody's fired, they prepare the final paperwork. They have 54 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: to sit in the room, they have to escort the 55 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: person to you know, pack up their belongings before they 56 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: leave the building. They take the key card and the keys. 57 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: It's a very stressful position for the person in HR. 58 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: And also they're very alienated from people in the company 59 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: because everybody's afraid of those Well, I was about to say, 60 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: it's not that they're bad people. Everyone's afraid of them. 61 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: You see HR heading toward you, you're not afraid. You 62 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: don't think they're gonna say, hey, you want to go 63 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,559 Speaker 1: get a cup of coffee? Oh no, no, no, no, 64 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: no no. Can breathe a sigh relief when they keep 65 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: on walking. But you know that's interesting. Somebody way up 66 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: on high decides to fire hatchet job somebody, and then 67 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: it's on HR to do the deed. And you're right, 68 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: they know where all the bodies are buried than everybody's secrets. 69 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, well, let's just take for example 70 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: in the recent past all the complaints sex harassment. HR 71 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: has probably been knowing about those for years, and they 72 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: will probably reprimand the person, and they probably fuss it 73 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: in the person. They'll probably make them take leave or 74 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: make them go to some kind of a sensitivity class, 75 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: and then they walk buy in the hall they're like mhmm, 76 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: I mean, how can you even look at people when 77 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: you know all the stuff about them? And the HR 78 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: employees can't tell they're at least not supposed to tell 79 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: what they know, so they carry it around with them. 80 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: Michelle Motby in that position, she's found in a pool 81 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: of blood. What else can we learn from the nine 82 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: one one call? Yesterday? No, No, nobody was yesterday at all. Okay, 83 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: so this morning, and so the last time somebody would 84 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: have been there would have been last Friday, Friday, if 85 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: they would have left her on eight o'clock at night. Okay, 86 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: so it looks like a homicide, correct, yes, ma'am. Okay, 87 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: was that her office? No? You well, it's no. She's 88 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: on the outside. We have a mezzanine. Well, the blood 89 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: is right by her office door. It looks like she 90 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: never got in her office. She didn't, so she couldn't 91 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: have jumped, No, ma'am. Yeah, she's looking lay in place, 92 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: faced on her hands. Okay. I don't want anybody to 93 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: pack anything. Any guys, just opened the door time behind 94 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: the back. I think she's like I said, and I 95 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: had somebody covered her body with plastic or something. Okay, 96 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: And you said there's blood outside the office door, Yes, ma'am, 97 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: it's a big pile of blood. Is there any weapons 98 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: laying around that you can see? No, ma'am oh. When 99 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: you have the victim with her hands tied behind their back, 100 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: and remember, this is just not a story. This is 101 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: this beautiful young mom with two little girls, making her 102 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: living in an HR division of a biotech company, never 103 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: misses work, steadfast, comes home to her children, no drama, 104 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: no running around, no secret affairs, no embezzling, nothing like this, 105 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: and she ends up dead. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 106 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, everything changed when I heard the words 107 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: her hands were tied behind her back. That changes who 108 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: the killer is. Yeah, it does. It changes the rattling 109 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: home of the way you look at this thing, and 110 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: you know what would be the purpose behind binding this 111 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: poor woman in her place of business. One of the 112 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: things that you think about is potentially there's some kind 113 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: of gain, some kind of robbery that's in progress at 114 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: that point in tom where you're trying to restrain her 115 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: to keep her from thwarting your efforts to do what 116 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: you have to do as a perpetrator. It really kicks 117 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: it up to a different level. Nancy. The aspect of 118 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: Michelle Martby's hands being tied behind her back before she 119 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: was murdered does lead cops into an entirely different direction. 120 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: What more can we learn from that nine one one call? 121 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: I want you to stay on the file with me. Okay. 122 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: How many other office people are there? Now? There's a maintenanceening, 123 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: a cleaning man. He's the one with me when we 124 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: found her, okay, because he's seen the blood. And then 125 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: I went in an orman's bathroom and immense bathroom nose 126 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: and there and we see more blood. It was by 127 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: the door leading to the measaninge when I opened up 128 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: the meazanie and I looked at her right and now 129 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: she's leaning. Okay, you two are the I two that 130 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: had been up there, a correct Okay, whatever you do, 131 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: like I said, don't let anybody else go up there. 132 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: Never keep everybody from going up there. And her other 133 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: acco every money, they'll have to walk past you. Yes, 134 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: there is. It's there's another stirwell, okay, can you send us. 135 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: Can you send that man it's man maybe to keep 136 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: them keep anybody from going upstairs. Sure, yeah, okay, but 137 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: sure yeah, Bobby, And make sure nobody thumbs up the 138 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: stairs by the lobby. You go up here and in 139 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: the lobbies, and just don't letting nobody up the stairs 140 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: this mezzanine. Mezzanine you said, it's an outside mezzanine. No, No, 141 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: it's an inside inside. Yes. And she's been having any 142 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: trouble at work with anyone? No, nothing, I don't know. 143 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: No man not giving any calls or hadn't said anything 144 00:09:33,160 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: about anything. No. And we were looking for people, other victims, 145 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: the perpetrator, or any obvious signs of evidence. Okay, when 146 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: you walked in the hallway, did you see at what 147 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: you said? You saw blood on the well? You said 148 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: in the hallway on the floor in front of the door. 149 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: There was blood going up to the door, and then 150 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: we just basically followed the blood to see if there 151 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: was an effect. Blood belonged to another victim, and we 152 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: went through and then you could see blood looked to 153 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: be small blood stains on the carpet. Okay, do you 154 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: see any blood on the walls or any on any 155 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: vertical circuit. I don't remember seeing any. You were hearing 156 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: what Sheriff's deputy Anthony Lusty describes to the other cops 157 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: he sees on the scene with me. Robin Willinski. Crime 158 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter Ashley Walcott judge, lawyer, anchor 159 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: California's psychoanalyst doctor Bethany Marshall, and forensics expert and author 160 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan to Ashley Wilcott, you know, we were 161 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: talking earlier about the fact that she has been in 162 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: HR for all this time and the secrets she must 163 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: know on the majority of people that work there at 164 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: the biotech company. The fact that her hands were tied 165 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: behind her back at another detail to this, a subtle 166 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: but significant detail. The big pictures she's been murdered, but 167 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: who would come in with the items necessary to bind 168 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: someone possibly torture them. That gives a different significance and 169 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: meaning to the clues on the scene. Ashley, And what's 170 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: your take on the fact that she had been in 171 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: HR for so long? Well, a couple of things. Number One, 172 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: the fact that she's been in HR for so long 173 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 1: she knows not only all of the individuals names who 174 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: are for the company, she knows everything about them in 175 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: terms of their payroll, what they make, if they're working 176 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: or not, all of those things. That's her job responsibility. 177 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: She has knowledge and a specialized knowledge about everybody in 178 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: that company. Second, as to the binding behind the hands 179 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: behind her back. Yes, I agree, somebody had to that's 180 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: pre premeditation right there. Somebody knew what they were doing. 181 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: They wanted to incapacitate her. So it's not just a 182 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: fit of rage, Oh I'm going to kill this person. 183 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: It's I'm going to incapacitate this person. Perhaps they did 184 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: that to keep her so she couldn't escape or do 185 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: anything while they asked her questions, while they who knows 186 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: what they did to her before they actually murdered her. 187 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: To me, that is so significant that one little detailed 188 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: to say premeditation plan. Take a listen to share. Stalwarth 189 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: describes for us the blood evidence once we got into 190 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: the hallway into the office area appeared to be a 191 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: large spot, red spot at the kind of at the 192 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: base of a wall, if you will. I would consider 193 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: it to be a fairly decent size amount. And then 194 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: there was looking further into the office area, one of 195 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: the doors to the offices looked like it had had 196 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: fresh primarks that were not consistent with any other door 197 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: in the area. Two areas that I felt like stood 198 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: out to me to be and this again this is 199 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: kind of on the fly, but two areas that I 200 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: felt like We're important to protect you know, I want 201 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: to talk to you. Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, author 202 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. How apropos in 203 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: this case? What was the cause of death of Michelle Mockbey, Nancy. 204 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: This is a particularly brutal case because at the end 205 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: of the day, her cause of death was as a 206 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: result of bludgeoning otherwise known as blunt for trauma. That 207 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: means that a heavy object was used to literally beat 208 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: this poor woman to death, Nancy. That's why there is 209 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: so much. There's just a copious amount of blood. There's 210 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of impacts that are that 211 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: have occurred all over the surface of her body. So 212 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: it's particularly brutal death, you know. To doctor Bethany Marshall, 213 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: LA psychoanalyst, a bludgeoning death is somewhat akin to a 214 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: stabbing death or a strangulation, uh, not asphyxiation in the 215 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: smothering sense, but literature or manual, particularly manual strangulation, in 216 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: that the perpetrator is extremely close to the victim and 217 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: is really face to face inches away from the victim's 218 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: face at the time. A bludgeoning requires very close contact 219 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: at the very least arm's length, Nancy. When I hear 220 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: about this crime, this homicide, that her hands were tied 221 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: behind her act, there's a certain overkill quality. I feel 222 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: that whoever did this was quite premeditated, obviously wanted her gone, 223 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: but did not know how to kill her. I mean, 224 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: it could be one of two things, a rage attack, 225 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: or it could be that the person who wanted her 226 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: gone didn't know how to do it in a better way. 227 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: It's not a very good way to put it, but 228 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: wanted her gone and could only think a bludgeoning and 229 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: bludgeoning and bludgeoning until she was dead. It just seems 230 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: so crude to me. A crude form of homicide. Somebody 231 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: who's not sophisticated, somebody who's at the lower echelons of society, 232 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: somebody who doesn't think ahead before murdering her to prepare 233 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: a dumb sight for the body. It's just like catches 234 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: her by surprise and then does it in whatever way 235 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: comes to his mind in that particular moment. Nancy, go ahead. 236 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: One thing I'd like to add here, with the binding 237 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: of the hands, it kind of reaches out to me 238 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: someone there literally might be an element of torture involved 239 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: in this in the fact that you have this individual restrain, 240 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: the fact that she struck so many times and so brutally. 241 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: This may have been an attempt to you know, direct 242 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: anger at her, or it could have been an attempt 243 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: to extract information from her as this thing began to escalate, 244 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: and finally she winds up dead. She died of blunt 245 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: force trauma. That's true, Joe Scott Morgan. But the medical 246 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: examiner also notes cuts on her wrists. What does that mean? 247 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: I mean, this certainly was no suicide, So why would 248 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: the purp have cut her wrists? I don't know, you know, 249 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: it goes back to this other idea of how the 250 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: depth of these cuts, the orientation of these cuts. Was 251 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: it meant to inflict further pain on this poor woman, 252 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: or were there strength so tight that maybe in an 253 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: attempt to restrain her, her wrist were cut. That's a 254 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: question that I don't know that I can necessarily answer, 255 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: but it certainly leaves a lot to the imagination. Doctor 256 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, LA psychoanalyst familiarity breeze contempt that much contempt 257 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: that you would bind her cut her wrists, possibly with 258 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: the bindings and bludge in her dead well, I agree 259 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: with Joe Scott Morgan that maybe the perpetrator was trying 260 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: to extract information from her. We're talking about the fact 261 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: that she's in HR. She knows, as Ashley Willcott said, 262 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: she has a very specialized knowledge about everybody in the company. 263 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: Whoever did this bound her hands first and then began 264 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: to bludge in her. Was this perpetrator trying to get 265 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: her to talk? Was this perpetrator trying to find out 266 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: if she knew that he had committed some kind of 267 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: crime or heard something in the in the company that 268 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: would get him into trouble and then it just either 269 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: got out of hand or escalated, or maybe maybe she said, look, 270 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: I have something about you in my file. We have 271 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: a file on you, and he felt that if he 272 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: killed her that he could also get expunge whatever was 273 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: in his record at the company. Speaking of coworkers and 274 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: familiarity breeding contempt, turns out that Michelle mcby's husband also 275 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: worked at Thermo Fisher. In fact, Dan Mightby the second 276 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: in command supervisor at Thermo Fisher, and we learned he 277 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: had a seven hundred thousand dollars insurance policy on who 278 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: else but his wife Michelle Guys walked in her office 279 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: or I think somebody killed somebody upstairs in her office, okay, 280 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: thank somebody laying the kind around covered up and there's 281 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: blood all over up the floor in the office. Okay. 282 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: So what's the addresser? Seventy three eighty three and fire drive. Okay, 283 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: if it's somebody that worked there, Yeah, it looks like 284 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: her name is Michelle Marca Be. She usually comes in 285 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: early on Mondays and they got her like her whole 286 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: body's covered with plastic in that you can't see her 287 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: head or anything, and obvious she's dead, right, yes, sir, 288 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: yes man? Okay? What's your name as Jeska? Why? Uska? Okay? 289 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: How how long has it been since somebody was in 290 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: there but a Friday? What time did you get in? 291 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: Five O'clockly, if people come in and usually Michelle on Mondays, 292 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: get your seven o'clock Who blooded Michelle might be dead 293 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: on the one morning a week she comes in early 294 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: when no one else would be around at the time 295 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: she gets in joining me right now. Ashley Wilcott judge 296 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: a lawyer anchor. You can find her at Ashley Wilcot 297 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: dot com. What about it, Ashley, What about motive. Let's 298 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: talk about motive, follow the money. How many times do 299 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: we see that that's the motive? And speaking of money, 300 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: is it true, Ashley Wilcot, that while the husband got 301 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: nearly a million dollars life insurance policy, he still hadn't 302 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: paid off her headstone. You know, that's what they're saying. 303 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy? That's a lot of money to get. 304 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: Why in the world would you not take care of 305 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: your deceased wife? First begs the question, doesn't it seven 306 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars as a result of this? So again, 307 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say it might add to the motive. Well, 308 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: I remember dotor Bethany Marshall, California psychoanalyst, a murder case 309 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: I tried. It's a very very difficult case where a millionaire. 310 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: This is what happened. He hit his head, his wife 311 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: in the head. Then he said, how us on fire? 312 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,479 Speaker 1: And he crawls out a window. It's like two o'clock 313 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: in the morning. As I recall, he's fully dressed, shoes, belt, pants, shirt, wallet, glasses, 314 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: the works and goes in lays all our romanesque in 315 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: the front. Neighbor's yard. While the house burns down, the 316 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: fire department pulls up. They talked to him for about 317 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: three minutes before he goes, oh yeah, my wife's in there. Okay. 318 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: And I tried every which way at trial to get 319 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: in evidence that he had not paid the funeral bill. 320 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: And this man had millions. I wouldn't pay the funeral bill. 321 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: He hated her that much. I did not get it in. 322 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: By the way, it never came into evidence. But the 323 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: same principle here it makes it. It doesn't prove anything, no, 324 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: which is why the judge would not let me let 325 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: it in, although I thought it was a valid circumstance evidence. 326 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: But in this case, the fact that he hasn't paid 327 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: for the headstone, you know, it doesn't prove anything, but 328 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: it might add into evidence for a jury. I think 329 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: it adds nancy because it shows possible contempt for the decease, 330 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: you know. Ashley Wilcott pointed out that there are players 331 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: in this scenario who can benefit in some way, perhaps 332 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: financially or where there's money involved. That would be either 333 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: an employee or the husband with a life insurance policy. 334 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: But there are other motivators for homicide too. There's contempt 335 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: or as we saw with Scott Peterson, he was having 336 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: multiple affairs and he didn't want the unborn baby. So 337 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, there's also the getting the wife out of 338 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: the way because I want an idealized life away from her, 339 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: and the fact that the husband did not pay for 340 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: her Headstone says that maybe there's a certain lack of 341 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: regard or he was detached from her or wanted her 342 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: out of the way for some reason. The husband as 343 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: a viable person of interest, as a husband always is 344 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: when a woman is founded and vice versa. But Robert Wilenski, 345 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life CSI, 346 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: behind the Casey Anthony Trial on Amazon, Robin, what can 347 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: you tell me about the falsification of a work records 348 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: and time card? So one of the people, it has 349 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: to be crystal clear that at this scene, when we're 350 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: hearing these nine one one calls and people are calling in, 351 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: there's a finite amount of people in this huge building. 352 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: There's a deceased HR lady who's doing time cards on 353 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: a Monday morning as the HR people do, and then 354 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: there's a janitor, and then there's the guy that you 355 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: hear on the nine one one call another employee, So 356 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: that's three people to my account, and the husband isn't 357 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: on scene. And so this whole time card issue is 358 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: is that this janitor who is not actually an employee 359 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: of the company. He owns his own janitorial services company 360 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: with his wife. And this guy bills separately as an 361 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: independent contractor. Like you had somebody coming in and getting 362 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: rid of the roaches or the bugs, and then they 363 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: send you a separate bill. He's a contractor and his 364 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: time card is three times what it should be. So 365 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: if he's saying, well, I worked four hours a day, 366 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: there's an allegation that, well, he's actually working twelve hours 367 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: a day, and so he's trying to dip in and 368 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: get more money and the HR lady who's dead on 369 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: the floor knows about it. Wow, Okay, so we're looking 370 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: at potential motives everywhere, and then we learn is there 371 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: a break in the case is their security video? Take 372 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 1: a listen. Several truck drivers who were already parked a 373 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: Thermo official or scientific in the overnight hours before Michelle 374 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: Mockbey died. One of them was there hours before. Here's 375 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: why that was important for a minute, because there is 376 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: security video that shows a man walking around an adjacent 377 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: business the night before she was found dead. It was 378 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: not either of those truck drivers. Take a listen to 379 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: news reporter and Jeanette Levy. Garland Latham used to work 380 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: at the warehouse. He was questioned about the so called 381 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: random dude in this surveillance video. He was seen walking 382 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: through the parking lot just nine hours before the murder. 383 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: The attorneys say detectives didn't try hard enough to identify him. 384 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: You know, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, I used to 385 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: tell juries, what do you want a video? But in 386 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: this case we have a video. But what good is it? Yeah? 387 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: What good is it? It's good for the defense because 388 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: you know it's their job, Nancy, that any case that's created, 389 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: obviously by the prosecution, is to poke holes in it. 390 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: You always they always want to, you know, kind of 391 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: drum up this idea that what if it could be 392 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: somebody else? There's an alternate explanation, And that's why this 393 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: video is significant. It's almost like a real life game 394 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: of clue. There were thirteen employees present at the workplace 395 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: the morning of Michelle Mokby's murder, who would have known 396 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: she would be there early that Monday morning, giving someone 397 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: an opportunity to bludgeon her dead, leaving her there her 398 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: hands still bound behind her back. So systematically the thirteen 399 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: are held. Do we even know it is one of 400 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: the thirteen, but systematically each one is held and questioned 401 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace, and we were looking for people, 402 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: other victims, the perpetrator, or any obvious signs of evidence. Okay, 403 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,959 Speaker 1: when you walked in the hallway, did you see at 404 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: what you said? You saw blood on the bele you 405 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: said in the hallway on the floor in front of 406 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: the door, there was blood going up to the door 407 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: and den we just basically followed the blood to see 408 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: if there was an effect. Blood belonged to another victim, 409 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: and we went through and then you could see blood 410 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: looked to be small blood stains on the carpet. Okay, 411 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: do you see any blood on the walls or any 412 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: on any vertical circuit. I don't remember Deputy Anthony Lusty 413 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 1: describing under questioning what he saw at the same And 414 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: remember the door to Michelle Mockby's office had pri marks 415 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: on it. Somebody wanted in, somebody was after her. What 416 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: she bleeding. Is that what the trail of blood is? 417 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: While she did the bludgeonings start before she got into 418 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: her office. Did she get into her office, locked the door, 419 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: and the door was then pride open and the bludgeoning continued. 420 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: Remember this is a young and beautiful soccer mom of 421 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: two little girls. I'm looking at them right now with 422 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: her in the middle of them. Everybody all three big 423 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: beautiful smiles. The school even says their thoughts and prayers 424 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: with the family. She had been a member of the PTA, 425 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: the parent teacher organization. Everyone in their neighborhood said they 426 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: loved their daughters, they took care of them, that their 427 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: family was the center of their life. She was even 428 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: a girl Scout cookie mom. I mean doctor Bethany Marshall, 429 00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: she scrubbed in sunshine. Who would do this to her? Well, 430 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: we have two possible people. We have the husband who 431 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: didn't pay for the tombstone or the headstone, and we 432 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: have the janitor who has falsified all of his billing. 433 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: And right now it sounds like an Eggita Christie novel 434 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: Thirteen people are being held to people. It does It 435 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: doesn't fact there was, In fact, there was a spoof 436 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: on one of her novels that the twins watched and 437 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: with me, and it's exactly like this. Well, you say 438 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: that there are two suspects, there were thirteen people at 439 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: the work site the morning she was murdered, and we 440 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: learned also that there was a forty foot trail of 441 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: blood leading to her office Joe Scott Morgan. So we've 442 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: got thirteen narrowed down to three at the office by 443 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: the police, discounting the husband. And Robin Lynskey tells me 444 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: he has an alibi that he's at home with the 445 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: children at the time. Forty foot trail of blood, what 446 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: does that mean? Well, the trail itself, you have to 447 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: be able to distinguish it. Are they droplets of blood 448 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: or they drag marks, because that's going to give you 449 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: an indication as to what happened. Let's just say that 450 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,719 Speaker 1: she was beaten in another place. The difference is is 451 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: that were these drag marks or were they droplets. If 452 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: they were droplets, that trail that they're talking about, it 453 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,719 Speaker 1: is going to give an indication that she was upright 454 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: and moving. The blood is dropping away from her body 455 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: as she moves to and fro. If it was a 456 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: drag mark. That means that there was an attempt, probably 457 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: to spirit the body away to another location. That means 458 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: she's incapacitated and you're dragging the blood just like if 459 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: people at home will think about dragging a dirty mop 460 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: along the floor. You're leaving this somebody that wanted her dead. 461 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: And it started outside of her office and they began 462 00:30:54,200 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: bludging her outside of her office forty feet that blood trail. 463 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: She gets to her office, locks her door, the door's 464 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: pride open. I'm curious as to where the blood trail started. 465 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: We know she got there before six am, and that 466 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: really does rule out the husband because he is at 467 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: home with the girls. Now just ninety minutes later or less, 468 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: her body is discovered savagely beaten, and there are more 469 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: details to the discovery of her body. Her skull was 470 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: fractured in four separate places. There was a plastic bag 471 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: literally soaked with her blood, placed over her face. That 472 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: is highly significant, doctor Bethany Marshall. Highly significant that the 473 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: killer covered her face well. The killer did not want 474 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: to look her in the face. The killer did not 475 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: to see her looking back at him as a witness 476 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: to what he had just done. This is very common 477 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: for perpetrators to put a bag over somebody's head, or 478 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: if they dump a pod body out in the woods 479 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: to cover it up or cover up the face. It's 480 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: as if in some ways they do not want to 481 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: be seen. Also, as Joe Scott Morgan pointed out, if 482 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: whoever did this bludgend her in one spot and then 483 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: drug her forty feet, were they trying to contain the 484 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: bleeding from the most profuse spot? And there are a 485 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: lot of blood vessels around the scalp right, so if 486 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: this is where she was bludgened, they could have tried 487 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: to like stave off the bleeding, put the bag over 488 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: the head and then drag her with the least amount 489 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: of blood in that trail. Other items taken at the 490 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: scene included, and this is highly highly significant, a tape gun. 491 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: A tape gun believed by law enforcement to actually be 492 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: the murder weapon. That tells me a lot Because the 493 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: tape gun is there on the scene, the perp didn't 494 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: bring it with him, so was this a crime of passion, 495 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: an instant crime, and a crime of the moment. We 496 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: also learned her hands were not bound wise by ziptized 497 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: or handcuffs, which would likely have been brought to the scene, 498 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: but by tape tape packing tape which was there on 499 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: the scene, also scattered around her body. And I find 500 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: this to be the single most probitive evidence or time 501 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: cards time cards. Robert Lensky explain the significance, Well, the 502 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: significance to me is that it's very possible that there 503 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: was some sort of verbal altercation, an argument between possibly 504 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: the janitor and the HR lady. Perhaps they encounter each other. 505 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: Maybe he knows because he's cleaning before everybody's getting to 506 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: work on Monday morning, that you know, I'm going out 507 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: on a limb here, And maybe there's a confrontation because 508 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: she's the HR lady and she knows that there's a 509 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: scam going on. She knows based on the outside video 510 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,720 Speaker 1: security cameras of the perimeter of this huge warehouse and building, 511 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: who is coming in when, with the janitor's bucket and 512 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: the mop and the bags and this and that, And 513 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: maybe she had the time cards in her hand, coming 514 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: into work early, as all HR managers do at my 515 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: other places of business on Monday morning, my HR manager 516 00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: does my time card, and perhaps the time time cards 517 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,959 Speaker 1: were in her hand and there was an argument, and hey, 518 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: you're trying to scam this company. Well, also significantly, not 519 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: not just what was at the crime scene, but Joe 520 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, as a forensics expert, you look at what 521 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: was not at the crime scene. Duly, the guy with 522 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: the big lucrative business on the side, the janitor there, 523 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: his time cards were missing. Joe Scott. Yeah, that's a 524 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: huge red flag, isn't it. Nancy. You know the idea 525 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: that that out of all of those time cards doctor 526 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: Bethany had mentioned how they're scattered about the floor. You 527 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: had mentioned how they're scattered about the floor, and out 528 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: of all those cards, is there are missing, So that 529 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: that gives us an indication that maybe these have been 530 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: rifled through in order to identify a specific set. You're 531 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: going in there with purpose. But he went in just 532 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: as you mentioned. This is fascinating to me, Nancy. You 533 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: talked about the tape that her hands were bound with, 534 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: and also this tape gun. In forensic and in attacks 535 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: like this, that tape gun, if in fact that was 536 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,439 Speaker 1: used to ask the weapon to kill her with, that's 537 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: referred to as a weapon of convenience. That's not something 538 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: you'd come prepared with. It's something that you it's a 539 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: reactionary event where you grab the closest thing that you 540 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: can in order to facilitate facilitate these fatal blows. A 541 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: dead bolt, the padlock had just been put on her 542 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: office door. Had someone been stealing time cards or changing them? Listen, 543 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: Will the jury find the defendant David Dooley guilty of 544 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: murder under Instruction number four signed by the four person 545 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: term prey physical evidence verdict fourm B we the jury 546 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: find the defendant David Duley guilty of term physical evidence 547 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 1: under evidence under Instruction number five. To this day, there's 548 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: a strong contingent that claims David Dooley is innocent and 549 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: that the husband did it, or that anybody did it 550 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: beside David Dooley, But the jury has spoken. Nancy Grace 551 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: Crime Stories signing off, Goodbye Friend,