Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both.
Speaker 1: You know, with our federal government so often paralyzed these
Speaker 1: days by infighting between the extreme and the more extreme
Speaker 1: wings of the Republican Party, more than ever, it's up
Speaker 1: to our state and local leaders to get things done,
Speaker 1: and that puts a lot of responsibility in the hands
Speaker 1: of our governors.
Speaker 2: Some use that power in cruel and.
Speaker 1: Destructive ways, by implementing abortion bands, taking away voting rights,
Speaker 1: or treating migrants not as human beings but as political pawns.
Speaker 1: But meanwhile, others are using that power for good. Today,
Speaker 1: I'm talking to two recently minted governors who are doing
Speaker 1: everything they can to improve the lives and future prospects
Speaker 1: of the citizens whom they serve. Both of my guests
Speaker 1: have broken through all kinds of barriers to get to
Speaker 1: where they are today. Later we'll be hearing from Governor
Speaker 1: Wes Moore of Maryland, But first I want to introduce
Speaker 1: you to Maura Healy, Governor of Massachusetts. Before taking office
Speaker 1: as the first woman and first openly gay governor of Massachusetts,
Speaker 1: Maura had already accomplished a lot. She'd played professional basketball,
Speaker 1: Despite it has to be said, her kind of small stature.
Speaker 1: She'd served as the chief of the Civil Rights Division
Speaker 1: of the Attorney General's Office in Massachusetts and then been
Speaker 1: elected as the first openly gay attorney general. Now, Maura
Speaker 1: is an unabashed progressive, but first and foremost, she is
Speaker 1: dedicated to getting things done, bringing the people of Massachusetts
Speaker 1: together to deal with everything from the climate crisis to
Speaker 1: the opioid epidemic, to housing shortages, poverty, to civil and
Speaker 1: human rights. She's off to a great start, and I'm
Speaker 1: thrilled to welcome her to the podcast.
Speaker 2: There she is the governor.
Speaker 1: Good morning, time I see you, and every time I
Speaker 1: get to say that, I get a big thrill.
Speaker 3: Secondary It is always so great to see Thanks for
Speaker 3: having me on.
Speaker 1: I want to start with your athletic career because one
Speaker 1: of the things that is very clearly connected among many
Speaker 1: women in public life is that they did have some
Speaker 1: kind of sports background. And I want to know how
Speaker 1: you decided to compete in basketball, because you know, our
Speaker 1: listeners can't see you.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're a mighty person, but you're not six
Speaker 2: feet tall.
Speaker 4: Well that that is true.
Speaker 3: I am five four and probably shrinking every day, so
Speaker 3: obviously I was a point guard when it came to basketball,
Speaker 3: But for me as a young kid, it's sort of
Speaker 3: found me. I was athletic, and I loved playing sports,
Speaker 3: and probably about the time I was ten years old,
Speaker 3: really serious about basketball. I kept playing other sports, soccer
Speaker 3: and tennis, but basketball I really loved and it.
Speaker 4: Also provided a real release to me.
Speaker 3: When I was about ten, that's when my parents split up,
Speaker 3: and I think as the oldest of five, I sort
Speaker 3: of threw myself into school, threw myself into athletics right
Speaker 3: and it provided a really healthy outlet for me. You know.
Speaker 4: I grew up in a little.
Speaker 3: Town in New Hampshire, as you know, and so going
Speaker 3: to Roanoak, Virginia, or down to Oxford, Mississippi to play
Speaker 3: in junior Olympic tournaments when you're thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years
Speaker 3: old also opened up my eyes and my worldview. That
Speaker 3: continued through college, where I had the chance to captain
Speaker 3: the team at Harvard, and then I played professionally overseas
Speaker 3: for a couple of years in Europe because at the
Speaker 3: time there were no women's pro leagues here in the States.
Speaker 3: So that's what you did. I carry the experiences of
Speaker 3: athletics with me every day. And I think this gets
Speaker 3: to your comment about women in leadership. You learn a
Speaker 3: lot about how to build confidence self esteem. Literally, when
Speaker 3: you're out there on a court at the foul line
Speaker 3: shooting a one on one, people are watching, so you
Speaker 3: sort of get used to having to perform. Sometimes you
Speaker 3: fail and you don't make the shot, and you learn
Speaker 3: to get up and go forward and move on. I
Speaker 3: think also you learn a lot about discipline. And when
Speaker 3: I ran as a very unlikely politician, I treated every
Speaker 3: day of the campaign just like a season. Every day
Speaker 3: was practice, get up, get after it. You don't just
Speaker 3: show up and play in the files, right, So you
Speaker 3: learn a lot about discipline. You learn a lot about
Speaker 3: hard work, really, and I think something women are particularly
Speaker 3: good at teamwork.
Speaker 2: Right. I think that's a terrific explanation.
Speaker 1: And as someone who has you know, been on the
Speaker 1: front lines of athletics, and then through your service and
Speaker 1: the Attorney General's office, then becoming Attorney General yourself, and
Speaker 1: now governor, you've been able to see how getting that
Speaker 1: sense of commitment every day makes a difference. Because if
Speaker 1: you get knocked down, which we all do, you got
Speaker 1: to get back up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you do. And you know, along the way it's
Speaker 4: important to have fun.
Speaker 3: So you know, I do continue to get out and
Speaker 3: play basketball with kids and youth programs and do that
Speaker 3: while you know, doing work that can be really grueling.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think that's just part of what
Speaker 3: it means to be in government, particularly these days.
Speaker 4: But you know, I have to say I do this job.
Speaker 3: And people can evaluate how well or how poorly I
Speaker 3: do it. I do it with a view that I'm
Speaker 3: here for as long as I'm here, I want to
Speaker 3: make the most of every day.
Speaker 4: It's why I probably operate with a heightened level of urgent.
Speaker 3: See that is probably too much sometimes for people to
Speaker 3: take around me as we're trying to you know, execute
Speaker 3: and move on a lot of fronts. But you know,
Speaker 3: I don't really pay attention to the critics. You sort
Speaker 3: of follow you and you do what you think is
Speaker 3: right and just keep moving forward. And you know, part
Speaker 3: of the discipline I guess of athletics is you literally
Speaker 3: learn to block out the crowd.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, you have to. You're at the foul line.
Speaker 3: You have to block out the booze and the jeers
Speaker 3: and all that and just focus on the shot.
Speaker 2: Well, boy, does that resonate with me, because yeah, you
Speaker 2: and I have both been the.
Speaker 1: Subject of more than a few jeers and razzing during
Speaker 1: our political careers. Well, I want to talk about the
Speaker 1: state that you are now privileged to be governor of,
Speaker 1: because you know, people think of Massachusetts as, you know,
Speaker 1: this blue state that is so liberal. And you know,
Speaker 1: I've spent enough time in Massachusetts, went to college in Massachusetts,
Speaker 1: campaign for my self and others, and I love your state.
Speaker 2: But it's a tough political environment.
Speaker 1: I mean it is lots of sharp elbows, lots of
Speaker 1: you know, really tough battles. And you actually flipped that
Speaker 1: governor's seat from your predecessor, who was a Republican. So
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about the politics and the
Speaker 1: political landscape of Massachusetts that people outside might not understand.
Speaker 3: Well, let me just say I think Massachusetts it's the
Speaker 3: greatest state in the country, right, I just you know,
Speaker 3: aren't you.
Speaker 2: Running billboards and places like Florida?
Speaker 4: I am, and my message has come here.
Speaker 3: You know what, We'll make sure you have access to healthcare,
Speaker 3: We'll protect voting rights and civil rights.
Speaker 4: We stand up for LGBTQ.
Speaker 3: Plus you know, members of our community we make sure
Speaker 3: that women have access to the reproductive health care that
Speaker 3: they need, and we really value and invest in education
Speaker 3: and workforce. So you know, that's my stump on Massachusetts politically.
Speaker 4: You're absolutely right. It's a state.
Speaker 3: Where you know, for many, many years, the majority of
Speaker 3: governors have been Republican see Mitt Romney, Bill Weld, Charlie Baker.
Speaker 3: So yes, I happen to be the first woman ever
Speaker 3: elected governor, first gaye person elected governor in our state.
Speaker 4: And you know, I ran.
Speaker 3: As a proud Democrat with a progressive record, and now
Speaker 3: have the opportunity to serve and to serve a state
Speaker 3: that really is in many ways a microcosm of this country.
Speaker 3: We have very blue areas, particularly in our cities, we
Speaker 3: have red areas, and we have purple areas. It really
Speaker 3: is truly a microcosm. And I think that's something that
Speaker 3: sometimes is missed in how Massachusetts is talked about or perceived.
Speaker 3: It's why, you know, nothing's a layup nothing.
Speaker 4: You take nothing for granted.
Speaker 3: If you're running a race and campaigning here, if you're
Speaker 3: looking to push forward your agenda, you have to get
Speaker 3: out and earn every vote and earn every opportunity for
Speaker 3: support for your agenda. You know, my job as governor
Speaker 3: is to make sure that everybody, no matter what their
Speaker 3: zip code is, right in Massachusetts, has a shot, has opportunity. Right,
Speaker 3: We're really really focused on an economic growth agenda here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And do you think that was the political message
Speaker 1: that most resonated with voters as you were campaigning?
Speaker 3: Well, I think we ran a really positive campaign, positive
Speaker 3: in the sense of like, let's go, you know, let's
Speaker 3: get it done, Let's make the investments in our people.
Speaker 4: You know, coming out of COVID.
Speaker 3: Where I think there was a lot of I wouldn't
Speaker 3: say malaise, but depression, just people down, a lot of dislocation,
Speaker 3: tremendous disruption, people needing to sort of see a sense
Speaker 3: of purpose, opportunity like this is where we're going, this
Speaker 3: is what we can make happen. And I think that
Speaker 3: really resonated with people. And I definitely was offering up
Speaker 3: an agenda of making life in Massachusetts more affordable by
Speaker 3: cutting tac by increasing housing because we've got a challenge
Speaker 3: with housing costs here, making life more equitable and fair,
Speaker 3: more opportunity for more people, and making our state more competitive,
Speaker 3: which is why I'm leaning in on a package of
Speaker 3: tax cuts and some other measures to make Massachusetts attractive
Speaker 3: not only to residents, I also want employers coming to Massachusetts,
Speaker 3: where you know, I think there is this incredible amount
Speaker 3: of human talent, intellectual talent, innovation, entrepreneurship.
Speaker 4: My job as governor is to help support and seed that.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a great campaign outline because it certainly caught
Speaker 1: the imagination of your voters, and you won overwhelmingly. But
Speaker 1: as you know, the late great Mario Cuomo once famously said,
Speaker 1: you campaign and poetry and your government prose. And so
Speaker 1: now you've been governor and you've had to translate those
Speaker 1: really important aspirations into policies.
Speaker 2: So give us a quick update where you.
Speaker 1: Are, as you're now into that hard but essential task
Speaker 1: of governing your state.
Speaker 3: It is, It is hard, and some days you're making
Speaker 3: more progress than other days. But I have to say,
Speaker 3: eight months in, I am really pleased with what we've accomplished.
Speaker 4: We've been able to.
Speaker 3: Do universal free school meals for students across Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: That's a big deal to me.
Speaker 3: Too many dealing with food and security, Now they don't
Speaker 3: have to worry about that. We got that done. We
Speaker 3: made community college free for everyone twenty five years and older.
Speaker 3: It turned out we had seven hundred thousand people in
Speaker 3: Massachusetts who had some credits towards a degree, but then
Speaker 3: life got in the way and they could no longer
Speaker 3: afford it. Now we're bringing them in back off the
Speaker 3: sidelines free community college, which is absolutely essential to our workforce.
Speaker 3: I appointed the country's first climate chief. She sits atop
Speaker 3: all my secretariats and drives a climate agenda on transportation,
Speaker 3: on healthcare, on workforce and labor, you name it, it's
Speaker 3: happening there. I just went out another accomplishment. I just
Speaker 3: went out with the largest bid for offshore wind great
Speaker 3: and I'm really excited about what that's going to mean
Speaker 3: for our move from fossil fuels to renewables. It's also
Speaker 3: a huge economic engine and driver, and Biden Harris administration
Speaker 3: came through with some funding to support us because they
Speaker 3: see what we're trying to do in a space where
Speaker 3: we're going to address climate, we're going to grow great
Speaker 3: paying jobs and healthier communities. So that's just a little
Speaker 3: snapshot of a day in a life. We've got an
Speaker 3: issue that is not unfamiliar to you where we have
Speaker 3: migrants coming to Massachusetts. I have been leaning hard on
Speaker 3: the Biden administration. These folks need to work, they want
Speaker 3: to work, and we have a workforce challenge when it
Speaker 3: comes to so many industries out there. These are folks
Speaker 3: who could be working tomorrow in construction and hospitality at
Speaker 3: our hospitals and nursing homes, and so you know, my
Speaker 3: goal is to get expedited work permits and authorizations for them.
Speaker 3: But those are just some of the things that we're
Speaker 3: working on.
Speaker 2: There is so much work. And for somebody like you
Speaker 2: who loves to roll your sleeves.
Speaker 1: Up and get into that nitty gritty, you are blessed
Speaker 1: to be governor at a time when there are federal resources.
Speaker 2: But there are also federal problems. And you mentioned one,
Speaker 2: which is immigration and the failure to move more quickly
Speaker 2: to enable people to work who want to work. And
Speaker 2: early on you mentioned reproductive health, and you and I
Speaker 2: are both reading how some states are trying to literally
Speaker 2: criminalize leaving your state to get the reproductive health care
Speaker 2: that you need and deserve. But I think on immigration,
Speaker 2: on reproductive health, you're going to be you know, having
Speaker 2: to join forces with other like minded governors, because this
Speaker 2: is a battle that unfortunately is not easily solved, because
Speaker 2: the other party wants a problem with immigration, not a solution,
Speaker 2: and the other party is driven by the most extreme
Speaker 2: views about abortion.
Speaker 3: I think that governors really sit at this point where
Speaker 3: you know, we can act for good or we can
Speaker 3: act for ill. And I think you've seen that play
Speaker 3: out across the country where frankly, you've seen governors take
Speaker 3: actions that are about stripping voting rights, stripping civil rights,
Speaker 3: demonizing and dehumanizing members of the LGBTQ plus community, going
Speaker 3: after and attacking migrants and those who are simply coming
Speaker 3: to this country looking for a better way of life
Speaker 3: and wanting to contribute. Those who will deny, you know, science,
Speaker 3: and deny what's happening with our climate, even though storms
Speaker 3: and floods and hurricanes. I had nine tornadoes, Hillary, I
Speaker 3: had nine tornadoes in Massachusetts this summer.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 3: I talked to my friend Governor Kelly and Kansas. I said,
Speaker 3: what am I supposed to do with the tornado? She's like, what,
Speaker 3: just you get under a desk? I mean, we never
Speaker 3: had to talk about these things before. So it's just
Speaker 3: to say there are these forces out there, right, governors
Speaker 3: who are out there just furthering, perpetuating misinformation, disinformation, harming
Speaker 3: their own people, right exactly, I guess further into some
Speaker 3: perceived political gain. And we have an opportunity, and I
Speaker 3: have an opportunity to offer up something different.
Speaker 2: We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
Speaker 1: You know one other thing I wanted to mention because
Speaker 1: this struck me when I was looking at the accomplishments
Speaker 1: in the record you've already acquired, and that is, you know,
Speaker 1: lots of governors, In fact, I'd say probably most governors
Speaker 1: don't grant pardons until the ends of their term.
Speaker 2: But you've made headlines for granting more pardons than your
Speaker 2: recent predecessors, and you've said justice can't weight. How do
Speaker 2: you make those decisions, and why are you doing it?
Speaker 2: And what do you hope the results will be?
Speaker 4: Well, this is.
Speaker 3: One of the most important powers that you have as governor,
Speaker 3: the power of clemency. And my backstory is that I
Speaker 3: was a business lawyer for many years, a big law firm,
Speaker 3: and then I sort of did a one to eighty
Speaker 3: left to become chief of the Civil Rights Division in
Speaker 3: the Massachusetts Attorney General's office. I bring a civil rights
Speaker 3: lens to the work that I do, and as somebody
Speaker 3: who's been both a civil rights lawyer and a prosecutor,
Speaker 3: I have seen up close the real disparities and failures
Speaker 3: in a criminal justice system, and also seeing so many
Speaker 3: of the things that lead people unfortunately into the criminal
Speaker 3: justice system. We talk a lot about the social determinants
Speaker 3: of health, there are the social determinants of justice, right,
Speaker 3: And you know, being presented with the profiles of these
Speaker 3: individuals who are considered for pardons is very clear to me.
Speaker 3: You know, people should not be held back in many instances,
Speaker 3: serve their time. They've done everything that they were supposed
Speaker 3: to do, and they did the work, and all they
Speaker 3: want now that they're out is a fair shot at
Speaker 3: a job, right that's going to provide for.
Speaker 4: Them or their families.
Speaker 3: And isn't that what we're supposed to insent in our
Speaker 3: criminal justice system. You know, it's about accountability, it's about reform,
Speaker 3: it's about rehabilitation, and that too often gets lost in
Speaker 3: tough talk and the conversation around criminal justice and its purpose.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm thrilled that you're taking that on as well,
Speaker 1: because it's really important you know we're about to have
Speaker 1: a big election again in twenty twenty four, and I've
Speaker 1: bet a lot of young people ask you what it's
Speaker 1: like being in politics, and you know, whether you'd recommend
Speaker 1: that they maybe think about going into politics or going
Speaker 1: into government, what advice do you give them?
Speaker 4: Go for it?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: You and I know, I mean running isn't for everyone, right,
Speaker 3: and there are some of us who would probably prefer
Speaker 3: to be behind the scenes, and there are so many
Speaker 3: ways to be involved in politics without having to be
Speaker 3: the actual candidate.
Speaker 4: But I can tell.
Speaker 3: You now more than ever, we need young people to serve.
Speaker 3: It's why I've set up a Youth Advisory Council, It's
Speaker 3: why I incorporate young people into all the work that
Speaker 3: we do across my office, because they are the energy.
Speaker 3: They bring a focus, they bring a drive, and frankly,
Speaker 3: who has a more vested interest in what's going to happen,
Speaker 3: in what our laws and policies are going to be
Speaker 3: than are young people. We need them really engaged. We
Speaker 3: need them voting, We need them not to be turned off.
Speaker 3: We need them to see that their government is here
Speaker 3: for them, right here for them. I'm looking up, I'm
Speaker 3: in my office here. One of the things that every
Speaker 3: governor in Massachusetts gets to do when they're elected is
Speaker 3: by tradition, they're supposed to hang a portrait of a
Speaker 3: former governor, and that is to hang in their office
Speaker 3: to provide inspiration. Well, I did something a little different.
Speaker 3: I opened it up and I asked school children across
Speaker 3: Massachusetts to submit essays with recommendations for whose portrait I
Speaker 3: should hang. I received one essay and I read it
Speaker 3: and I just knew this is it. It was from
Speaker 3: a group of high school students and they said, you
Speaker 3: should hang just a frame. You should look forward for inspiration,
Speaker 3: not backwards. Every time you walk into your office governor
Speaker 3: in the morning, you should look up at that empty
Speaker 3: frame and think about those who are voiceless, those who
Speaker 3: aren't walking the halls of power, and make sure you
Speaker 3: bring it every day for them.
Speaker 4: And I just thought the combination and what that message
Speaker 4: evoked for me. It was like so clear.
Speaker 3: So when you come you'll see in my office there's
Speaker 3: an empty gold frame, but it does to me represent
Speaker 3: what our young people are all about. And you know
Speaker 3: what's cool. You've had the kids in right, I mean,
Speaker 3: the kids come in their school field trips, and you know,
Speaker 3: they come into your office and they ask you questions
Speaker 3: and then they take pictures. Now, they take pictures and
Speaker 3: they superimpose their pictures inside that empty frame and they
Speaker 3: send me the text and it's like, cool, That's exactly
Speaker 3: what I want them to see. I want them to
Speaker 3: see themselves in government, and I want to see that
Speaker 3: they can be anything they want to be.
Speaker 2: Oh, you're giving me goosebumps tomorrow. I love that. Okay.
Speaker 3: What keeps you up at night, you know, just wondering
Speaker 3: if you've done enough, you know, because I think about
Speaker 3: the kids who are going to bed hungry. I think
Speaker 3: about the families who are you know, making calls to
Speaker 3: police because one of their loved ones is in the
Speaker 3: throes of an overdose.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: I think about those moments and what am I doing
Speaker 3: or not doing as governor. That's what keeps me up
Speaker 3: at night, you know, apart from from thinking about just
Speaker 3: the vulnerability of seven million people for whom I have
Speaker 3: some measure of responsibility. Apart from that, the thing that
Speaker 3: I worry about most is democracy. You know, what we
Speaker 3: saw in twenty sixteen, what we saw in twenty twenty,
Speaker 3: none of that's gone away, and we have to be
Speaker 3: vigilant and fight back, fight back at these efforts to
Speaker 3: undermine and erode democracy and fundamental tenants principles that build
Speaker 3: this country. We need leaders, and you know, I will
Speaker 3: work with anyone in any party if they're about some
Speaker 3: fundamental principles and truths, and one of them has to be.
Speaker 4: We believe in democracy.
Speaker 3: We're going to protect the freedom to vote, and we're
Speaker 3: going to fight for and ensure accountability at every level.
Speaker 4: That's what keeps me up at late yep.
Speaker 1: Well, I join you in that insomnia, my friend. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you've got such a
Speaker 1: tough job. What do you do to recharge, to rest,
Speaker 1: to relax, to you know, find some time to you know,
Speaker 1: just take a deep exhale.
Speaker 4: Well, you do need to do that.
Speaker 3: And I'm grateful when I get to come home at
Speaker 3: night to my partner and you know, her kids and
Speaker 3: the dog and take a walk. I love to get
Speaker 3: to the beach or any anywhere near water or the woods.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I find walking in those places really calming and restorative.
Speaker 3: The other thing I do is I clean.
Speaker 4: I don't know about you. I feel like if whatever
Speaker 4: has happened to me in the course of the day.
Speaker 3: It's probably like you know why I like laundry right,
Speaker 3: like I did it. It's done same with cleaning. Two
Speaker 3: nights ago, I was cleaning out the freezer, right. I
Speaker 3: think it's this where there is so much chaos and
Speaker 3: disorder and things coming at you. It's like, what can
Speaker 3: I find at the end of the day that will
Speaker 3: give me some semblance of like okay, peace? So sometimes
Speaker 3: it's the freezer.
Speaker 2: Oh do I relate to that? Do you totally?
Speaker 1: I mean, just get me a drawer to clean out,
Speaker 1: a closet to declutter.
Speaker 2: And I'm a happy person.
Speaker 1: But I'm especially happy that I got to talk with you,
Speaker 1: my friend, and I can't wait to come up and
Speaker 1: get my picture taken in front of the empty frame.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to shoot hoops with you, and I
Speaker 1: played half court basketball. That was what we did in
Speaker 1: my day. But maybe I'll help you clean out your basement.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 4: I welcome any and all of that. It is so
Speaker 4: great to be with you. Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 2: Thank you, my dear.
Speaker 1: Keep an eye on Maura Heally, and keep an eye
Speaker 1: on Massachusetts. My next guest is someone I've had an
Speaker 1: eye on for quite a while now.
Speaker 2: Full disclosure.
Speaker 1: We first met about twenty years ago when he and
Speaker 1: Chelsea became friends at Oxford University, where he was serving
Speaker 1: as a Rhodes scholar. Later, he caught my attention for
Speaker 1: his excellent work as CEO of the Robin Hood Foundation,
Speaker 1: a not for profit organization dedicated to fighting poverty in
Speaker 1: New York City. Wes Moore is an Army veteran and
Speaker 1: a dad to two children. He's done so much in
Speaker 1: his life, but one thing he'd never done before recently
Speaker 1: was actually run for elected office.
Speaker 2: But that's just what he did.
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two. He ran and he won, making
Speaker 1: him the first black governor of Maryland and only the
Speaker 1: third elected black governor of any state. Since taking office
Speaker 1: in January, Wes's administration has been busy passing bills to
Speaker 1: alleviate child poverty and creating a ground breaking public service
Speaker 1: program for high school graduates, among many other things. I
Speaker 1: am so delighted to welcome him to the podcast. Hello,
Speaker 1: Governor Wes Moore, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Oh are you in your office in Annapolis?
Speaker 5: I'm in the office in Annapolis and it's still a
Speaker 5: bit surreal, uh, you know, being here and you know,
Speaker 5: knowing that this is my everyday office and I live
Speaker 5: across the street. Now, I mean it is Uh, it's
Speaker 5: quite fascinating.
Speaker 2: How's your family getting settled in? How's everybody doing?
Speaker 5: You know, they're they're doing great. The kids have really
Speaker 5: done well. And you know, and I tell you, I
Speaker 5: think a lot of it was a lot of counsel
Speaker 5: we got from friends. I had to be very honest
Speaker 5: with the council that we got from Chelsea, you know,
Speaker 5: and I was asking her about, you know, like how
Speaker 5: should I be thinking about this, and some great advices
Speaker 5: she gave was just keep their schedule and their lives
Speaker 5: as consistent and normal as it was before, because the
Speaker 5: number one goal is that you want them to be
Speaker 5: as unaffected as possible in all this. And uh, and
Speaker 5: so what we've been we've been very fortunate that we've
Speaker 5: been able to do it so far.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: I am lucky enough to have known you because you
Speaker 1: and Chelsea have been friends for a number of years,
Speaker 1: and she, I think has a pretty clear idea of
Speaker 1: what will work and what doesn't work. I was especially touched,
Speaker 1: Wes that you were sworn in using two Bibles, one
Speaker 1: of which belonged to one of our great Americans, the abolitionists,
Speaker 1: the newspaper publisher and so much else, Frederick Douglas. What
Speaker 1: was that moment like that you put your hand on
Speaker 1: that Bible, knowing that Frederick Douglas had been there before.
Speaker 5: It was? It was breathtaking because I said it to
Speaker 5: the team almost as a wouldn't it be cool? Thing?
Speaker 5: And my team heard me and actually then reached out
Speaker 5: to the National Archives, which is where that Bible is.
Speaker 5: And you know, once they said that we're going to have,
Speaker 5: you know, only the third African American ever inaugurated as
Speaker 5: governor in this country, they contacted the Douglas family and
Speaker 5: they gave permission for the Bible to be released for
Speaker 5: that day. And it was amazing because they literally had,
Speaker 5: you know, an armed escort that took the Bible to Annapolis.
Speaker 5: It was inside of a case and even when dawn,
Speaker 5: when my wife is holding a Bible, she had to
Speaker 5: hold the case. They were very clear in their instructions
Speaker 5: the case would open up and the only hand that
Speaker 5: could touch the Bible was mine. Interesting, I then said
Speaker 5: the oath with my hand on the Bible as soon
Speaker 5: as I completed the oath, they closed the case and
Speaker 5: they brought it back to the archives. It was onspiring,
Speaker 5: and it was also just a really important reminder of
Speaker 5: this journey. I mean, I'm a student of Frederick Douglass,
Speaker 5: and you know, I'm proud of the fact that he's
Speaker 5: a Marylander, but I'm also horrified by so much of
Speaker 5: his treatment that happened by Marylanders, and so much of
Speaker 5: the life that he lived, so many the changes that
Speaker 5: he fought for the impact that he made. It was
Speaker 5: trying to unearth a system that was very much entrenched
Speaker 5: in this state that we call home. And so I'm
Speaker 5: not just really humble by it. And there's actually a
Speaker 5: picture that I have of Frederick Douglass that sits in
Speaker 5: my office, and I I strategically positioned it where it
Speaker 5: almost looks like he's looking at the desk, so every
Speaker 5: time I make a decision, I can look up and
Speaker 5: look at him like he's looking at and he's saying,
Speaker 5: you know, make the right choice here, man, because because
Speaker 5: you know, you're standing on some pretty broad shoulders right now.
Speaker 2: Well that's pretty dauntic.
Speaker 1: Got I heard that, Frederick Douglass and looking over your shoulder,
Speaker 1: But I do want to congratulate you on the recent
Speaker 1: passage of the Family Prosperity Act. I love the title,
Speaker 1: which makes the child tax credit permanent in Maryland. Now,
Speaker 1: you have written a lot and spoken a lot about
Speaker 1: the differences that a child's circumstances make on their future,
Speaker 1: and you yourself had some challenges as a child after
Speaker 1: your father passed away. How did your upbringing shape your
Speaker 1: thinking on this program and lead you to make the
Speaker 1: decision to try to ease some of the financial burden
Speaker 1: on families.
Speaker 5: When I thought about my why as to why I
Speaker 5: wanted to run for governor, why I wanted to go
Speaker 5: this path, the issue of child poverty is at the
Speaker 5: very top of that list.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: I ran one of the largest poverty fighting organizations in
Speaker 5: the country before I decided to run for governor, and
Speaker 5: I realized quickly into that job that if we are
Speaker 5: not actually fixing some of these systems that continue to
Speaker 5: allow people to fall into poverty and make it so
Speaker 5: complicated for people to be able to come out of them,
Speaker 5: then we will just find ourselves cleaning up the debris
Speaker 5: that comes from broken systems. And so, you know, I
Speaker 5: was clear when we came on board from both my
Speaker 5: inaugural address to my first State of the State, where
Speaker 5: I said, this was the time that Maryland was going
Speaker 5: to make the most aggressive and full frontal assault on
Speaker 5: child poverty and bipartisan assault on child poverty that this
Speaker 5: state has ever seen. And we're out of the fact
Speaker 5: that in our first months we were able to do that.
Speaker 5: And that included things like the Family Prosperity Act, which
Speaker 5: was able to make the child tax Credit permanent, be
Speaker 5: able to raise the minimum wage to fifteen dollars in
Speaker 5: our state, because gone should be the days when we
Speaker 5: have people who are working jobs, in some cases multiple jobs,
Speaker 5: and still living at or below a poverty line, and
Speaker 5: creating real pathways for children to be able to have
Speaker 5: a different type of conclusion than their origin might might
Speaker 5: have inspired. And the thing that we're able to see is,
Speaker 5: you know, not just that that bill alone was able
Speaker 5: to lift over one hundred and fifty six thousand children
Speaker 5: up a rung on the economic ladder in the stroke
Speaker 5: of a pen. But the argument was this helps the
Speaker 5: economy because since we passed this bill, Maryland now has
Speaker 5: the lowest unemployment rate in the entire country. You know,
Speaker 5: so supporting our children and supporting the most vulnerable and
Speaker 5: having a growing economy is not a choice. These two
Speaker 5: things actually happen simultaneously. And the thing we're really proud
Speaker 5: of as well is we're able to not just get
Speaker 5: these bills past or we're able to get passed bipartisan,
Speaker 5: which I'm really proud of.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you should be.
Speaker 1: Well, it is so clear that what you're doing is
Speaker 1: an economic boost, and you're already beginning to see results.
Speaker 1: But take me back, just for our listeners, give us
Speaker 1: a short overview of your own life and how you
Speaker 1: know what happened to you your family. Your challenge is
Speaker 1: really connected to not just an intellectual understanding of looking
Speaker 1: at the data and figuring out what will work, but
Speaker 1: really visceral, emotional you know.
Speaker 5: I always say I'm probably the most improbable governor in
Speaker 5: the country because there was nothing about either life trajectory
Speaker 5: or professional background that kind of made this make sense.
Speaker 5: And I say it improbable because I'm the son of
Speaker 5: an immigrant single mother. She immigrated to this country from
Speaker 5: Jamaica when she was young, and when I was only
Speaker 5: three years old, my father died in front of me
Speaker 5: because he didn't get the healthcare that he needed or
Speaker 5: that he deserved. And so then my mother became a
Speaker 5: single mother who was going to then raise three children
Speaker 5: on her own. And she didn't get her first job
Speaker 5: that gave her benefits until I was fourteen, you know,
Speaker 5: her first job that gave her reliable hours, her first
Speaker 5: job that allowed her to work one job instead of
Speaker 5: multiple jobs. You know, this is not an academic exercise
Speaker 5: when we're talking about inequitable pay between men and women.
Speaker 5: You know, I don't need a white paper to explain
Speaker 5: inequitable pay between people of color and non like I've
Speaker 5: seen this. I grew up in this, and you know,
Speaker 5: I got into quite a bit of challenge and trouble
Speaker 5: where you know, I had handcuffs on my wrist by
Speaker 5: the time I was eleven, I was sent to a
Speaker 5: military school for some behavior issues by the time I
Speaker 5: was thirteen. I joined the Army at seventeen, coming right
Speaker 5: out of high school. You know, so I went through
Speaker 5: a lot of pathways that were non traditional, and so
Speaker 5: I knew from an early age that I wanted to
Speaker 5: focus on public service because I wanted to fight for
Speaker 5: people like my mom.
Speaker 1: Yes, and you know, you've had a varied career before
Speaker 1: you made the decison to run for governor. You know,
Speaker 1: in addition to being the first black Rhodes scholar at
Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins University and working in investment banking, and as
Speaker 1: you said, being the CEO of a very well regarded
Speaker 1: anti poverty nonprofit, you served on active duty in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: How did you find that experience influencing your decision to
Speaker 1: run for governor.
Speaker 5: You know, I think about, you know, when people said, well,
Speaker 5: you know, how did those things prepare you? It's funny
Speaker 5: amount of secretary. I didn't realize they were when I
Speaker 5: was doing them.
Speaker 2: Yes, you were living your life.
Speaker 5: You living your life right. And there was no point
Speaker 5: when I'm you know, leading paratroopers in Afghanistan and thinking
Speaker 5: to myself, this is gonna be really good one day
Speaker 5: when I run for governor. But the thing was amazing
Speaker 5: was it is actually true. They were all preparing you,
Speaker 5: whether you realized it or not. Right, And I think
Speaker 5: about the work of the military, and one of the
Speaker 5: things that I've really taken from my time there was
Speaker 5: how nonpartisan service really is. And part of the reason
Speaker 5: that I've said that I want Maryland to be the
Speaker 5: state that serves because service will save us that in
Speaker 5: this time of this political divisiveness and vitriol, that it's
Speaker 5: it's it's service that's going to bring us together, because
Speaker 5: that's the best way for people to get to know
Speaker 5: each other, right, It's the best way for people to
Speaker 5: get out of their comfort zones. And you know, I
Speaker 5: have people who I serve with in Afghanistan who came
Speaker 5: and campaigned for me. Many of them were not Marylanders,
Speaker 5: and many of them were not Democrats.
Speaker 2: Right I can imagine, but.
Speaker 5: They literally came to my state and were door knocking
Speaker 5: on my behalf and just simply saying, let me tell
Speaker 5: you about the guy that I served with. And so
Speaker 5: I really took from that experience of leading and serving
Speaker 5: with the best and some of the most amazing people
Speaker 5: that I, you know, will ever have the opportunity to
Speaker 5: be a around, that there was a there's a common
Speaker 5: bond that we all now have that is unbreakable. That
Speaker 5: there is no political conversation, that there is no financial
Speaker 5: that there is no family lineage that breaks that apart.
Speaker 5: That bond is unbreakable. And it's the reason that I'm
Speaker 5: so encouraged by the idea of asking people to serve
Speaker 5: because service will save us.
Speaker 1: Well, I love that, and I'm going to underscore what
Speaker 1: you said about, you know, being in the military and
Speaker 1: seeing it as nonpartisan, may it ever be. So I
Speaker 1: want to pick up on this emphasis on service because
Speaker 1: I think you have really zeroed in on something that
Speaker 1: is even more important today than it was when my
Speaker 1: husband created you know, the National Service Corporation, and service
Speaker 1: has always been something that I certainly believe in, but
Speaker 1: we now have what our Surgeon General of the United
Speaker 1: States has called an epidemic of loneliness in this country.
Speaker 1: People are isolated and it doesn't just affect them personally,
Speaker 1: but it has increased polarization that actually threatens our democracy.
Speaker 1: So I was really excited to hear about the one
Speaker 1: year civil service program that you announced for graduating high
Speaker 1: school seniors, you know, because it's not only that there
Speaker 1: is so much we could be doing if we focused
Speaker 1: on service, but it does make people feel like they belong,
Speaker 1: It creates community. How is that actually going to work?
Speaker 1: Wes in practice for young people.
Speaker 5: Well, we're really excited about this, and you know, Maryland
Speaker 5: is now the first state in the country that has
Speaker 5: a service year option for our high school graduates, and
Speaker 5: so when a person graduates from high school, there are
Speaker 5: many different things they can do. But now in the
Speaker 5: state of Maryland, we have another option. You can serve
Speaker 5: your state and you can choose however you want to
Speaker 5: do it. You know, we're very clear that you know
Speaker 5: with the service year option, you can choose to serve
Speaker 5: in the environment, you can choose to serve returning citizens,
Speaker 5: you can choose to serve veterans, you can choose to
Speaker 5: serve older adults, young people. It is completely your choice.
Speaker 5: But the thing that is going to provide is I'm
Speaker 5: a big believer in experiential learning and giving young people
Speaker 5: a pathway to find out what makes your heart be
Speaker 5: a little bit faster and then go after it. And
Speaker 5: the way it's basically going to work is for people
Speaker 5: that sign up, they're going to have a chance to
Speaker 5: choose which error they want to go into. We will
Speaker 5: then help them to find the right partner. And we
Speaker 5: have been so fortunate that we are three times subscribed
Speaker 5: with young people signing up. We have hundreds of employers
Speaker 5: and that includes nonprofit organizations, social enterprises, and businesses, government
Speaker 5: agencies who are saying we'll take people because we think
Speaker 5: this is a strong pipeline developer. And then not only
Speaker 5: will the person who's doing the year receive a living
Speaker 5: wage while they're doing it, they'll also receive things like
Speaker 5: financial education and financial literacy, open up bank accounts, and
Speaker 5: also at the end of it, they'll receive a six
Speaker 5: thousand dollars stipend and they can use that towards their
Speaker 5: higher education, they can use that towards a down payment
Speaker 5: on the house, they can use it on whenever they
Speaker 5: want to. But it's important that they know that they
Speaker 5: are going to have a long term benefit from this,
Speaker 5: that we can democratize it by making sure that there's
Speaker 5: financial supports for it, and that you're going to get
Speaker 5: more than just that experience. You're going to have a
Speaker 5: chance to really build a cohort and a connection. And
Speaker 5: part of the reason that I'm so excited and I
Speaker 5: know we can do it is is, as as you mentioned,
Speaker 5: Manim Secretary, it's been done before. We are standing on
Speaker 5: the shoulders of a Mara corps. The fact that we're
Speaker 5: now the first state to say a state can do this,
Speaker 5: we think and we feel very comfortable and confident to
Speaker 5: say that while Maryland is going to be the first
Speaker 5: state in the country to do this. We will not
Speaker 5: be the last. We think the service movement is now.
Speaker 2: Amen. I love that. We'll be right back. You know,
Speaker 2: for our.
Speaker 1: Listeners, you've been governor now for almost a year, actually
Speaker 1: about three quarters of a year. Looking back, what's been
Speaker 1: the hardest choice you've had to make thus far?
Speaker 5: You know, I tell you an interesting example where, you know,
Speaker 5: when we were pushing for the for the Fair Wage Act,
Speaker 5: which is lifting the minimum wage to fifteen dollars, there
Speaker 5: was a component to it that I thought was a
Speaker 5: really important component to it, and that was indexing. And basically,
Speaker 5: you know, for the listeners, amoight of indexing. Basically, this
Speaker 5: means that you can have that minimum wage that's then
Speaker 5: pegged to how inflation works. Because if you're raising a
Speaker 5: minimum wage but inflation keeps rising at a faster clip,
Speaker 5: that a it means less purchase power for the person
Speaker 5: who's benefiting from it, but b it lacks predictability for businesses,
Speaker 5: and so businesses have a really tough time being able
Speaker 5: to adjust or adapt when there is not inde And
Speaker 5: I knew that was going to be a real fight
Speaker 5: to be able to get that through our chamber, and
Speaker 5: I remember having a conversation with one of the chairs
Speaker 5: of one of the committees. I won't say her name
Speaker 5: in case she doesn't want me to share private conversations,
Speaker 5: but she told me, she said, listen on the policy.
Speaker 5: You're absolutely right, and I agree with you. She said,
Speaker 5: I just don't know if you're gonna get the votes.
Speaker 5: But the fact that you can get folks to even
Speaker 5: get to a fifteen dollars minimum wage, and knowing that
Speaker 5: you know what, you'll get up tomorrow and you'll keep
Speaker 5: fighting the fight to get to the next level. Now
Speaker 5: I know you want more. I know you do. And
Speaker 5: she said, but don't confuse quitting with quitting while you're ahead.
Speaker 5: And that was a really important lesson. I think when
Speaker 5: we think about the policy making, thing is you're not.
Speaker 2: Going to get everything absolutely.
Speaker 5: That's okay.
Speaker 1: She gave you really good advice, because you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: we do make it really difficult to both make incremental
Speaker 1: progress and then claim credit for it because it doesn't
Speaker 1: meet our highest aspirations. And that's a problem in politics
Speaker 1: because in a democracy, you know, now having been governor
Speaker 1: and been involved in these legislative battles, you have to
Speaker 1: find common ground and then you know, you take your
Speaker 1: stand on it, you build a little higher, and you
Speaker 1: keep going. And it is important to convey that to
Speaker 1: people who get discouraged by the state of politics. And
Speaker 1: we need more people to step up and dare to
Speaker 1: compete by running, whether it's for school board, congress, governor
Speaker 1: whatever it might be. What do you tell people when
Speaker 1: they say to you, gee, you know, I've kind of
Speaker 1: thought about running, but it's so messy, it's so mean.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I want to do that. How
Speaker 2: do you respond?
Speaker 5: I tell people, tell me what you want to do
Speaker 5: before you tell me what you want to run for.
Speaker 5: What's the issue? Yeah, and I think about it. Where
Speaker 5: for me, I'm clear. I mean child poverty is my issue, yes,
Speaker 5: I just I don't understand why we continue to do
Speaker 5: this to children before they even have a say right.
Speaker 5: And I remember having a when I was running Robinhood.
Speaker 5: We were working for six months to get a former
Speaker 5: governor to actually to introduce the child tax credit into
Speaker 5: their budget and showing why this made the most sense
Speaker 5: and literally gave them all the data behind it, told
Speaker 5: him he should include in the state of the state.
Speaker 5: And I got an advanced copy of the State of
Speaker 5: the State, and there was nothing in there about the
Speaker 5: child tax credit and nothing in there about child poverty
Speaker 5: as a whole. And so I'm a little bit frustrated.
Speaker 5: I call up my head of public policy and I
Speaker 5: go on this rant, and I think finally when I
Speaker 5: took a breath, he said to me, you know, we've
Speaker 5: worked for six months to try to get them to
Speaker 5: include a line in the speech. Well, what if you
Speaker 5: could write the whole speech? And that was the point, Yeah,
Speaker 5: what if you could write the whole speech. And so
Speaker 5: that's why our first State of the State it was
Speaker 5: all about child poverty, because I knew that that was
Speaker 5: the place that we could have a unique impact on
Speaker 5: addressing this issue that is so barbaric, and then we
Speaker 5: actually have a chance to fix. And so the thing
Speaker 5: that I would tell people, whether you want to run
Speaker 5: for you know, school board or PTA or congress or
Speaker 5: mayor or whatever role you want to run for, what
Speaker 5: is your issue, Build the credibility on that issue, build
Speaker 5: your coalition with that issue, and then think about, okay, now,
Speaker 5: what is the right seat to be able to impact
Speaker 5: the kind of change that I would make. Because the
Speaker 5: work and trying to get into these offices. It is
Speaker 5: too hard, Yes, it is too challenging and damaging. If
Speaker 5: you don't have your why, and if you aren't able
Speaker 5: to hold onto that every single day, this thing can
Speaker 5: break you. So you got to know your why and
Speaker 5: then you'll have which you need to go after it
Speaker 5: and you get up every morning, if you suit up
Speaker 5: and you get back on the field, that's right.
Speaker 1: Well, I literally could talk to you, my friends, because
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like the mission that you have
Speaker 1: set for yourself in your state is really the most
Speaker 1: American of all missions. I mean, give people the chance
Speaker 1: to make the most out of their own God given potential.
Speaker 5: That's it.
Speaker 1: Governor Wes Moore, thank you, Thank you for talking to me,
Speaker 1: Thank you for demonstrating just extraordinary leadership and as we say,
Speaker 1: just keep going.
Speaker 5: Thank you for all you do for all of us
Speaker 5: and the example that you set in for the friendship.
Speaker 2: Take care.
Speaker 1: I wish we had time to bring on all the
Speaker 1: great governors and mayors and city council members, you name it,
Speaker 1: who are out there actually doing the hard work to
Speaker 1: make our communities thrive. The serious leaders who are interested
Speaker 1: in results, not just rhetoric. Well, I can't talk to everyone,
Speaker 1: you will find some great conversations with folks like Michigan
Speaker 1: Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Pennsylvania State Representative Malcolm Kenyata, and Boston
Speaker 1: Mayor Michelle Wou. If you go to You and Me
Speaker 1: Both on iHeart Podcasts and look through our archive, You
Speaker 1: and Me Both is brought to you by iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo,
Speaker 1: with help from Khuma Abadeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsey Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz,
Speaker 1: Laura Olin, Lona Valmoorro and the Lily Weber. Our engineer
Speaker 1: is Zach McNeice, and the original music is by Forrest Gray.
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