Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both.
Speaker 1: I really love a problem solver. You now, somebody who says, hey,
Speaker 1: look there's something we can do about this. Let's figure
Speaker 1: it out. And today I'm talking to two of the
Speaker 1: best problem solvers I know. Later i'll dig into ideas
Speaker 1: about solving some of our problems with technology and elections
Speaker 1: with my friend, Minnesota Senator Amy Klobisher. But first I'm
Speaker 1: talking to the Mayor of Compton, California, Asia Brown. I
Speaker 1: first heard about this amazing young woman who decided to
Speaker 1: run for the mayor of Compton when she was just
Speaker 1: thirty one years old. And Compton, as a lot of
Speaker 1: people may know, is very old, distinguished city in California,
Speaker 1: but it was having a lot of challenges. And the
Speaker 1: idea that she stepped up and said, look, I think
Speaker 1: I can make a difference made a terrific impression on me. Hey,
Speaker 1: hi Mayor, Hi, how are you Secretary Clinton? Oh? Asia,
Speaker 1: I'm fine. I hope you are. I am. I am
Speaker 1: so great to see you. I am thrilled to welcome
Speaker 1: you to this podcast because, as you I hope no,
Speaker 1: I am a longtime admirer of your leadership and the
Speaker 1: incredible work you've done as mayor of Compton, California, from
Speaker 1: cutting both unemployment and the homicide rate by half in
Speaker 1: your first term to pioneering the largest guaranteed income program
Speaker 1: in our country. I think your success is really important,
Speaker 1: of course for the people of Compton, but more because
Speaker 1: of what it says about what we could be doing
Speaker 1: to help people and to govern better in a difficult time.
Speaker 1: So let me start by asking you, how did you
Speaker 1: get inspired to run and become the youngest ever elected
Speaker 1: mayor of Compton, California at the age of thirty one.
Speaker 1: I really was inspired to serve my community in this capacity,
Speaker 1: recognizing that I had worked in cities for a decade
Speaker 1: and urban planning, economic development, redevelopment, and I realized that
Speaker 1: projects can only go so far, and that in order
Speaker 1: to change the trajectory of my community, we need a
Speaker 1: new leadership. And so I looked around and asked people
Speaker 1: that exhibited leadership qualities what they consider running and everyone
Speaker 1: said no, And so I like, wow, I didn't know
Speaker 1: that far. Everyone said no. I even asked my husband,
Speaker 1: because I was the strategist of the family and I
Speaker 1: told him, you know, I have your back, and he
Speaker 1: said absolutely not. He was like, you're You're made for this,
Speaker 1: and I recognized that I was. I had the training,
Speaker 1: the education, and the passion, and so I stepped out
Speaker 1: by faith. And because I had done so much work
Speaker 1: in the community, we had already had a really strong
Speaker 1: coalition behind me. And I went to the people of
Speaker 1: Compton and I spoke with him about what they wanted
Speaker 1: for their community. And then I created a twelve point
Speaker 1: vision for Compton Plan, which was a strategy for community
Speaker 1: growth and restoration. And that was my platform, that was
Speaker 1: the mission, and the residents of Compton overwhelmingly elected me
Speaker 1: to enact that strategy, which is exactly what I've done
Speaker 1: for the last eight years. I love the fact that
Speaker 1: you say you're someone who likes getting things done. You're
Speaker 1: a woman after my own part Asia. When did you
Speaker 1: first realize that about yourself? Were you a child, a
Speaker 1: young girl, a teenager? Definitely a child, um. I actually
Speaker 1: am a twin have a twin brother, um. And my
Speaker 1: mother would always tell me, you're definitely the strategy and
Speaker 1: brains of operation. I would always be trying to run
Speaker 1: the situation, and she would tell me, you're not going
Speaker 1: to run my house, but you'll be running a company
Speaker 1: some day. So I always knew that I would um
Speaker 1: be a leader someplace, but I was focused on solving problems.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to make things better. And you've come
Speaker 1: up with something called the Compton Pledge, which is a
Speaker 1: really fascinating idea. Can you describe that to us? Absolutely? Um.
Speaker 1: The Compton Pledge is really our commitment to Compton, and
Speaker 1: it's focused on providing a direct, guaranteed income to eight
Speaker 1: hundred Compton residents that are the most impoverished in our community.
Speaker 1: And we really were strategic and wanting the sample to
Speaker 1: actually reflect Compton's demographics, and so we have not only
Speaker 1: um those that are below the poverty line, but also
Speaker 1: those that are undocumented, those that are firmly incarcerated, and
Speaker 1: so they were picked in a lottery basis. But they'll
Speaker 1: be receiving bi monthly payments between three hundred dollars every
Speaker 1: two weeks or six hundred dollars every two weeks, depending
Speaker 1: on family size, and the program will last for two years.
Speaker 1: We worked with the private sector to raid is eight
Speaker 1: million dollars in order to provide direct cash to confident residents,
Speaker 1: and we're looking forward to measuring their well being, how
Speaker 1: they feel, how their trauma is impacted with the additional
Speaker 1: infusion of capital, and then also providing them with access
Speaker 1: to a portal with benefits. So we're providing free checking
Speaker 1: accounts and financial counseling and um just information so that
Speaker 1: they can really empower themselves in their families. Why do
Speaker 1: you think guaranteed income programs like the Compton Pledge are
Speaker 1: promising when it comes not only to reducing poverty, which
Speaker 1: of course is a goal in and of itself, but
Speaker 1: more than that, integrating people into the larger community, getting
Speaker 1: them to use a checking account, getting them to know
Speaker 1: how to seek out help and advice if they want
Speaker 1: to start a small business or they have some other issues.
Speaker 1: I am a strong believer that we are all all
Speaker 1: human beings UM in our nation. We're all connected, we
Speaker 1: all live in communities, we all um live in the
Speaker 1: same neighborhoods, and what happens to my neighbor ultimately will
Speaker 1: impact me. When we think about people relying on the
Speaker 1: health care system for UM direct UH and in immediate
Speaker 1: healthcare that ultimately has a greater cost on the broader society.
Speaker 1: When we consider that people that are impoverished usually are
Speaker 1: more susceptible to being impacted by crime. That's something that
Speaker 1: impacts the total community. And so in order to have
Speaker 1: a direct impact on poverty, we must provide a direct
Speaker 1: investment to those that are most impoverished. And it's just
Speaker 1: really simple economics. We know for a fact that trickle
Speaker 1: down economics does not work. Um. It has never meant um,
Speaker 1: and it's not going to work. And so we must
Speaker 1: actually put our our money where we say our our
Speaker 1: mouth is what we say our value is as Americans
Speaker 1: in order to really provide equal access, justice, and opportunity
Speaker 1: for all. I love that and I think it's a
Speaker 1: great way of trying to demonstrate that investing in people
Speaker 1: pays off. I know you've been asked this question, but
Speaker 1: how do you respond to people who argue that a
Speaker 1: guaranteed income program will disincentivize people from actually working. That
Speaker 1: is such a misnomer, um, And it really reminds me
Speaker 1: of the welfare queen, thinking that providing someone with the
Speaker 1: basics to live is going to disincentivize them to wanting
Speaker 1: to provide more for their families and for myself. I
Speaker 1: was raised in poverty. I had a single mother, she
Speaker 1: had two kids. I need everything. At the same time,
Speaker 1: my mother did not access public assistance. She decided to
Speaker 1: work um and she worked hard, and she made zero excuses,
Speaker 1: and she focused on providing every single opportunity she can
Speaker 1: get her fingers on. And I know that my mother
Speaker 1: is not unique, that all mothers, all all fathers. They
Speaker 1: want the best for their children, and if they have
Speaker 1: an additional infusion of income, they're not going to sit
Speaker 1: back because obviously you can't live on three hundred dollars
Speaker 1: or six hundred dollars a month, but it can enable
Speaker 1: you from being um, housing insecure, from having your utilities
Speaker 1: cut off, from actually having a savings account for once
Speaker 1: in your life, and not feeling the pressure of constant
Speaker 1: really insecurity. My mother was raised with stress where literally
Speaker 1: if something happened, um, if her car broke, we literally
Speaker 1: were without utilities, and sometimes we had to move if
Speaker 1: the issue began to compound, and it happened over and
Speaker 1: over again growing up, and I remember being a child
Speaker 1: and feeling her stress because children feel what your parents feel.
Speaker 1: So I think people need to get back to basics
Speaker 1: and think about humanity and to not segregate poor people
Speaker 1: from the broader fabric of humanity. I love that, and
Speaker 1: of course I agree with it because so often people
Speaker 1: are literally just one broken car away from losing their job. There,
Speaker 1: you know, one bad health experience from losing their job
Speaker 1: and their income, and it's so unfair to turn our
Speaker 1: backs on what could be an incredibly rich flowering of
Speaker 1: people in our larger country if they just had a
Speaker 1: little bit of help so that they don't fall off
Speaker 1: the cliff and end up needing so much more or
Speaker 1: feeling that they're just lost. What advice would you give
Speaker 1: to someone who wants to get involved in their community
Speaker 1: but isn't quite sure how to do that. I would
Speaker 1: definitely encourage people to check out your city council meetings.
Speaker 1: Just see see who's representing you, See what issues that
Speaker 1: they're really champion Are they important to you and your family,
Speaker 1: Are they really going to to move the community forward,
Speaker 1: And then I would definitely start getting engaged, start reaching
Speaker 1: out to them and let them know what you need
Speaker 1: in your community and make them work for you. Elected
Speaker 1: officials are here to serve, and they're they're not to
Speaker 1: be served. They are to serve people, but the people
Speaker 1: have to actually do their part and hold them accountable
Speaker 1: and project what their agenda is in order for them
Speaker 1: to coalesce around that. So I would encourage people to
Speaker 1: use their power. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.
Speaker 1: I've heard that when you work to get young people engaged,
Speaker 1: you first asked them what makes you mad the most,
Speaker 1: because that's where they'll find the motivation to fix whatever
Speaker 1: it is that makes them mad. So let me ask
Speaker 1: you what makes you mad the most these days? You
Speaker 1: know what's been biking me, Mathew? Most are I think
Speaker 1: just people in the local community, and quite frankly that
Speaker 1: our seniors but aren't necessarily seasoned, that are continuing to
Speaker 1: fight against the younger generation. When we look at our
Speaker 1: history of those that have been the most impactful on
Speaker 1: the front lines of change our young people. And so
Speaker 1: I just believe when when the older generation can really
Speaker 1: wrap their arms around the young people and impose their
Speaker 1: wisdom and marry that with young people's passion, that we
Speaker 1: can really see the largest growth in our in our cities. Well,
Speaker 1: I hope that the older generation of which I am
Speaker 1: now or we'll hear you say that age now you
Speaker 1: have announced that you're not going to run for re
Speaker 1: election this summer. You were elected twice, you have been
Speaker 1: very successful mayor. You've institutionalized some really important changes in
Speaker 1: attitude and policy. What made you decide that it was
Speaker 1: time for you to move on. I've always committed that
Speaker 1: I would serve two terms UM, and I just believe
Speaker 1: that elected offices do not belong to the office holder.
Speaker 1: They belong to the people. And I know that as
Speaker 1: long as I'm here that at some point I won't
Speaker 1: motivate that next generation to step forward. And so in
Speaker 1: the midst of COVID, I was even more ignited in
Speaker 1: my passion of just building community and so I launched
Speaker 1: a community development corporation that's really focused on infusing wealth,
Speaker 1: building generational wealth in our communities, providing opportunities and educational
Speaker 1: infrastructure UM and just innovation and tech in comftent So
Speaker 1: I will be in comftent Um, but but serving in
Speaker 1: a different capacity and with what I believe I can
Speaker 1: have the greatest impact at this time, I just hope
Speaker 1: that you know what you've done serves as a model
Speaker 1: not only for those who follow in your footsteps in Compton,
Speaker 1: but really across the country, and of course I really
Speaker 1: hope that you will stay involved, that your voice will
Speaker 1: be out there. I just want to thank you, Secretary
Speaker 1: Clinton for being just a warrior UM for for justice,
Speaker 1: for access, for equality. I followed your career since the
Speaker 1: very beginning, and I can understand as a female leader
Speaker 1: just that the obstacles that you've had to overcome and
Speaker 1: the stances you've had to make because you're a woman.
Speaker 1: UM And so I just want to let you know
Speaker 1: that I am a huge fan. I always will be,
Speaker 1: and I just want to thank you for still being
Speaker 1: with us in publicly and just imparting your voice and
Speaker 1: your wisdom to to the United States and abroad because
Speaker 1: you're a champion for sure. Oh thank you so much. Asia.
Speaker 1: That means a world to me coming from you, and uh,
Speaker 1: I think I joined a big core us. Wishing you
Speaker 1: the very best as you embark on the next adventure
Speaker 1: in your life. Thank you. To keep up with Asia,
Speaker 1: you can follow her on social media. She's Asia That's
Speaker 1: a J. A. L. Brown on Twitter and Instagram. I
Speaker 1: have been looking forward to talking with my friend Senator
Speaker 1: Amy Klobisher from the beginning of the podcast because she's
Speaker 1: a really down to earth person who tries to figure
Speaker 1: out what to do to help people and also to
Speaker 1: solve problems. I've known her since she first ran for
Speaker 1: the Senate. She was a great supporter to me when
Speaker 1: I ran for president, in just blanketed the Midwest campaigning
Speaker 1: for me. And now she's back in the Senate after
Speaker 1: running for president herself, so she has that experience behind
Speaker 1: her and is chairing one of the most important committees
Speaker 1: called the Rules Committee, which she'll talk about. One of
Speaker 1: the areas of problem solving Amy is passionate about is
Speaker 1: holding big business accountable and breaking up corporate monopolies. In fact,
Speaker 1: her latest book is called Antitrust, Taking on monopoly Power
Speaker 1: from the guilded Age to the Digital Age. And that's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I was really excited to talk
Speaker 1: to her for our podcast. Here she is, Hey, hello,
Speaker 1: my dear, how are you. It's great to see you.
Speaker 1: How are you doing? How's your family? And I assume
Speaker 1: your husband after his bout with COVID is fine, Okay,
Speaker 1: I hope he is. My nine two year old dad
Speaker 1: actually also got through COVID. So we've been hit like
Speaker 1: so many families and um, so many families of course
Speaker 1: hit worse. And I've think one of our most exciting
Speaker 1: moments right now, in addition to the fact that it's
Speaker 1: like eighty degrees in Minnesota, is that we are finally
Speaker 1: getting through this. I was just on the phone with
Speaker 1: a bunch of vats with the American Legion and they
Speaker 1: were saying how excited they were that so many of
Speaker 1: their members have gotten the shots. And you know, it
Speaker 1: just feels to me like we are so close to
Speaker 1: getting through this and we've just got to hang in
Speaker 1: there and follow the rules. Um, and we're going to
Speaker 1: make it through. Well, I'm hoping that your assessment is
Speaker 1: right that we're certainly beginning to see the end of this.
Speaker 1: You know, there are two really important issues I want
Speaker 1: to talk to you about. Um. We'll get to the
Speaker 1: one about anti trust and about technology, but I want
Speaker 1: to start with the very important role you're playing in
Speaker 1: the Senate on election reform. You know, give us an
Speaker 1: update about where we are in trying to save our
Speaker 1: democracy again by fixing the issues that unfortunately keep coming up,
Speaker 1: about how we can always have free and fair elections,
Speaker 1: keep dark money out of our elections, encourage and help
Speaker 1: people to vote where where, are we on all of that,
Speaker 1: Senator Well, I think no one knows better than you
Speaker 1: what can happen when people start messing around with elections,
Speaker 1: which is what happened clearly in when you're running. And
Speaker 1: as a result of that, there were changes made to
Speaker 1: protect our system from foreign interference. Um, not only the
Speaker 1: hacking and what happened with your campaign, with the direct
Speaker 1: hacking into John Podesta's account so many others, but also
Speaker 1: with the attempts made to actually interfere with the ballots.
Speaker 1: And that's when we pushed for extra funding for the states.
Speaker 1: Because of what happened, we uh, Senator Langford and I
Speaker 1: introduced Backup Paper Ballots Bill, basically the Secure Election Act,
Speaker 1: with support from Senator Burr and Grant, and of course
Speaker 1: the Trump administration stopped that from passing, so we still
Speaker 1: don't have a requirement on backups. But because of what happened,
Speaker 1: I will say there were people like Chris Krebs at
Speaker 1: Homeland Security that worked really hard to take on foreign interference,
Speaker 1: resulting in him saying at the end of it, it
Speaker 1: was the safest election when it look comes to foreign
Speaker 1: interference in the history of America. So that's the one
Speaker 1: thing we got to remember that came out of what
Speaker 1: happened to you. The second piece of this, though, is
Speaker 1: the efforts that have been made at voter suppression that
Speaker 1: have been going on for years and became really obvious
Speaker 1: the last few years, and during the pandemic, this amazing,
Speaker 1: almost magical thing happened. You would have thought that voter
Speaker 1: turnout would have been way down because it was so
Speaker 1: hard to vote. Instead it was up at the highest
Speaker 1: level ever in the middle of a pandemic. That is
Speaker 1: because there was so much pressure on governors secretaries of
Speaker 1: states of both parties to make it easier to vote,
Speaker 1: to be like Minnesota where we have early registration in
Speaker 1: and I've always had the highest voter turnout in the
Speaker 1: country and as a result, much more voting by mail,
Speaker 1: much more education efforts on how to do this, and
Speaker 1: we come out with this big turnout. Okay, what happens then, Well,
Speaker 1: Joe Biden wins the election and Democrats eventually went Georgia,
Speaker 1: which no one thought possible. And then what does the
Speaker 1: Republican Party do? And to me, this is sad because
Speaker 1: a bunch of their governors and sectors of states were
Speaker 1: doing the right thing during the election, it was a
Speaker 1: bipartisan effort. Instead of going with the flow and re
Speaker 1: examining their party and what they can do, which all
Speaker 1: parties do after they lose an election, these guys decided,
Speaker 1: we're just gonna eliminate some of those voters. We're gonna
Speaker 1: choose our voters instead of the voters choosing us. I
Speaker 1: think that what we need to do is just put
Speaker 1: in some minimum national standards about mail in balloting and
Speaker 1: registering and early voting. And that's what the Four the
Speaker 1: People Act is about, in addition to taking some the
Speaker 1: dark money out of our politics and um, disclosing contributions
Speaker 1: and putting in ethics rules. UM. And that's this big
Speaker 1: bill that I chair the Rules Committee now, and that
Speaker 1: we're going to get through the committee. And what are
Speaker 1: the prospects of getting it through the Senate given what
Speaker 1: a lot of people are worried about, which is the
Speaker 1: old filibuster and the way to stop legislation like this. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I think it's time to change that old filibuster. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think you and I both understood, when used
Speaker 1: in a good way, it was it would foster people
Speaker 1: working together to get to sixty votes. That was a
Speaker 1: whole idea, and you were a master when you were
Speaker 1: in the Senate of getting things done across the aisle
Speaker 1: and knew how to do that. And I've done a
Speaker 1: lot of that too. I still went across the aisle
Speaker 1: all the time. But I have seen this now as
Speaker 1: impeding every major thing that we need to do, and
Speaker 1: so there's a few ways to get around that. One
Speaker 1: way is reconciliation, this old process that we used to
Speaker 1: get the America Rescue Plan through. But you just got
Speaker 1: to get stuff done, and that was fifty one vote.
Speaker 1: But you can't use that reconciliation thing, which is about taxes.
Speaker 1: You can't use it for things like voting reform or
Speaker 1: for the most part, immigration, climate change, some of these
Speaker 1: big things. So that leads you to the filibuster and
Speaker 1: making change. So I would favor changing the filibuster now
Speaker 1: to get rid of it. There's other reforms you could do,
Speaker 1: like the talking filibuster, which center mansion as signaled interest,
Speaker 1: in which you would at least force the other side
Speaker 1: to just stand and be there all night instead of
Speaker 1: messing around and just throwing in some procedural objection and
Speaker 1: going home. So those are the kinds of things we're
Speaker 1: looking at. In your question about how we get this
Speaker 1: bill through, it's like all these other bills. Um, we're
Speaker 1: going to have to find some way because right now
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell is not in a compromising mood. Um. That's
Speaker 1: a nice Minnesota euphemism saying it. So we're gonna have
Speaker 1: to find a way to get it done well. Connected
Speaker 1: to election reform is technology, social media, Internet reform, because
Speaker 1: I see it as going you know, hand in hand
Speaker 1: in terms of how we communicate, how we get information
Speaker 1: that we can trust to make decisions in a democracy.
Speaker 1: And you have a new book out, has it? Has
Speaker 1: it come out or it's about to come coming out?
Speaker 1: A excellent So you have a new book coming out, um,
Speaker 1: and it's called antitrust, taking on monopoly power from the
Speaker 1: Gilded Age to the digital age, and it's about how
Speaker 1: we increase competition in our economy and a number of industries.
Speaker 1: And you know, as you know, I'd be happy to
Speaker 1: talk any trust policy with you all day long. But
Speaker 1: for anyone out there listening who's all of a sudden
Speaker 1: saying any trust, what is what is that? Let's break
Speaker 1: it down. What is antitrust? And why does it matter
Speaker 1: so much? Well, it matters to anyone who wonders why
Speaker 1: is my cable bill so high? Or why is it
Speaker 1: cheap to go one airport leg and not the other?
Speaker 1: How come, um, there's nothing to pick from when it
Speaker 1: comes to cat food. Or my favorite was John Oliver
Speaker 1: who did a whole segment on this, and at the
Speaker 1: very end say, and if all this consolidation is enough
Speaker 1: to make you want to die, good luck, because you've
Speaker 1: only got three casket makers left. And then actually one
Speaker 1: has bought the other one, so there's only two. Um.
Speaker 1: And so anti trust came about during what we call
Speaker 1: the Gilded Age, when they are all these robber barons
Speaker 1: and they were controlling the railroads in Minnesota and northern Minnesota.
Speaker 1: They controlling where my grandpa later worked, the iron ore industry,
Speaker 1: and the mines. You can kind of go through it,
Speaker 1: you know, these stories in the haymarket going back in Chicago,
Speaker 1: Hillary and so what came about was this antitrust because
Speaker 1: it trust owns everything. So anti trust was this movement
Speaker 1: led by Democrats and Republicans. Teddy Roosevelt rode his horse
Speaker 1: into the White House in part because he was willing
Speaker 1: to take on the trust. So there's been this spirit
Speaker 1: of entrepreneur worship rejuvenating capitalism through the years that have
Speaker 1: not been partisan, and we haven't done anything in this
Speaker 1: area for decades and decades and decades, and now we
Speaker 1: have our new guilded age with companies that are basically
Speaker 1: the gateway companies, whether it is Facebook when it comes
Speaker 1: to social media, when it's Google that controlled the searches,
Speaker 1: and they have reached a point where they are able
Speaker 1: to hold the whole countries hostage. Like Australia that simply
Speaker 1: wanted to have people pay for content so news organizations
Speaker 1: could be compensated for content, and Google and Facebook that
Speaker 1: provide all those links go no way, we don't want
Speaker 1: to pay for that. We're just gonna go home. Sorry,
Speaker 1: you won't have a search engine. Well, eventually there was
Speaker 1: so much pressure internationally that they backed away. In Australia
Speaker 1: was able to proceed with their law. But a true
Speaker 1: sign of a monopoly is when they can hold an
Speaker 1: entire industrialized nation hostage. So that's what you're seeing, and
Speaker 1: it's affecting people, even though they love their aroducts. And
Speaker 1: I'm not against these companies, you know, they've been successful,
Speaker 1: they've given us great products, but we've always rejuvenated capitalism
Speaker 1: by having a check in balance. That was the breakup
Speaker 1: of a T and T. That was the work that
Speaker 1: went on around Microsoft in the past and other companies
Speaker 1: where people pushed back. Sometimes it resulted in dramatic things
Speaker 1: like the breakup and the reduction in the long distance
Speaker 1: line costs and the spawning of the cell phone industry.
Speaker 1: And sometimes maybe the end result wasn't dramatic, but it
Speaker 1: created a pause in the competition, so other new companies
Speaker 1: got in the market. And so that's what you're seeing
Speaker 1: right now with these Google and Facebook lawsuits that actually
Speaker 1: got started by some hard working people during the Trump
Speaker 1: administration at the end at the FTC and the do
Speaker 1: O J and I Trust, and are now being carried
Speaker 1: on by the Biden administration. You have really described so
Speaker 1: well what we're up against. And small businesses that might
Speaker 1: very well be developing some of the advances in technology
Speaker 1: or some of the fixes for what ails technology are
Speaker 1: being just squeezed out of the market. I mean they're
Speaker 1: not getting, you know, the kind of air they need
Speaker 1: to breathe to be able to develop and grow. So
Speaker 1: I think stronger competition or antitrust policy would also be
Speaker 1: good for small business. Yeah, it is, and especially women
Speaker 1: owned and minority owned businesses. You look at those numbers,
Speaker 1: particularly minority owned businesses, and how you have whole areas
Speaker 1: of the country that used to be have thriving small
Speaker 1: minority owned businesses, particularly African American owned businesses, and it's
Speaker 1: very hard to get started when you have these big
Speaker 1: goliaths that basically push everything out, and it's hard to
Speaker 1: get the capital to start. And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: solutions which I lay out in the book to that,
Speaker 1: even outside of antitrust law, with making sure that you
Speaker 1: make it easier to access capital and having STEM programs
Speaker 1: for focused on women and minorities. But you can't forget
Speaker 1: the n I trust law. I'm actually I'm pretty excited
Speaker 1: about that aspect of people haven't talked about competition for wages.
Speaker 1: If you just have one big company, they have no
Speaker 1: reason to want to compete for wages. If you have
Speaker 1: a bunch of people competing in the same area, this
Speaker 1: makes sense. Then the employees could go Nope, I have
Speaker 1: this expertise, but I'm gonna go work at this company instead.
Speaker 1: UM and when you look back in history. I mentioned Chicago,
Speaker 1: which was really a focal point for the union movement
Speaker 1: way back. That union movement came out in tandem with
Speaker 1: these monopolies because they were trying to give workers more power.
Speaker 1: The farmers and the grangers with their pitchforks at meetings
Speaker 1: in Minnesota and Iowa, North and South Dakota. That was
Speaker 1: a lot about the same thing. They don't want to
Speaker 1: have to pay just one railroad company to ship their grain. Um.
Speaker 1: And so it's just this trying to take that kind
Speaker 1: of exuberance for the issue that they had back then,
Speaker 1: when they had literally campaign songs. Woodrow Wilson had a
Speaker 1: campaign song about and I dressed um, which we wouldn't
Speaker 1: do today. But it's trying to take that kind of
Speaker 1: exuberance and bring it into the modern day politics. What
Speaker 1: are some of the monopolies that a lot of people
Speaker 1: might not even be aware of. Let's see online travel.
Speaker 1: People think they're getting all their deals when they go
Speaker 1: to Expedia and Kiaka, Well it turns out two companies
Speaker 1: own that market. Um. You have agged. There's been a
Speaker 1: lot of mergers and agg which makes it really hard.
Speaker 1: Pharmaceutical area, UM, while we are, you know, very pleased
Speaker 1: they developed these vaccines for us all across the world.
Speaker 1: We can't then take our pedal off the gas when
Speaker 1: it comes to looking at anti competitive conduct with pharmaceuticals,
Speaker 1: UM and I actually start my book by leading with
Speaker 1: how I got involved, which was a newborn baby drug
Speaker 1: called into methisin, when a pharmacist called me in Minnesota
Speaker 1: said this price suddenly went out for newborn babies with
Speaker 1: heart defects. It went of a thousand percent in one week,
Speaker 1: and it turned out one company had bought both the drugs.
Speaker 1: It was that simple. Um, I just think it would
Speaker 1: surprise people. It's everything from sunglasses, as I said, to
Speaker 1: cat food. It's a lot of consolidation going on. We'll
Speaker 1: be right back, So talk to us about your plan
Speaker 1: for both preventing monopolies and incentivizing competition, the kind of
Speaker 1: actions that you think are necessary, and what your legislation
Speaker 1: would try to do well. The first thing is making
Speaker 1: sure these agencies that FTC and the d O G
Speaker 1: and I trust, which are just shadows of their former selves,
Speaker 1: making sure that the agencies are not left with band
Speaker 1: aids and duct tape to take on the biggest companies
Speaker 1: the world has ever known. UM. The second piece is
Speaker 1: looking at the standards, and we have juvenated our anti
Speaker 1: trust laws decade after decade after decade, and so this
Speaker 1: is a moment where we could do that and look
Speaker 1: at some of these gigantic mega mergers that are over
Speaker 1: five billion dollars and say, well, for those, the government
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to prove that it hurts competition. UM, the
Speaker 1: company should have to prove that it doesn't. To make
Speaker 1: it easier to bring the cases. Because because you weren't
Speaker 1: President Hillary, we appointed a number of judges who have
Speaker 1: actually have really conservative track records on anti trust, particularly Gorset,
Speaker 1: who continues to side with Justice Thomas on these cases.
Speaker 1: And then Justice Kavanaugh had a number of conservative cases.
Speaker 1: He did go one time since becoming a Supreme Court
Speaker 1: justice on allowing a case to go forward with Apple,
Speaker 1: and he sided with the more liberal justices. UM, but
Speaker 1: for the most part his records very conservative. Amy Corney
Speaker 1: Barrett doesn't really have a record on anti trust. It
Speaker 1: there's no reason to think she will be anything close
Speaker 1: to where Ruth Bader Ginsburg was. So you basically, if
Speaker 1: your whole hope is to wait on the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: to stop their working in interpretation of the antitrust laws,
Speaker 1: which is very extreme. That's probably not going to happen.
Speaker 1: So that's what led me to believe that while the
Speaker 1: cases should continue to be fought, especially intact, there may
Speaker 1: be some hope on the horizon there. We've got to
Speaker 1: make some changes that are sensible to the laws to
Speaker 1: take on this. Make our laws as sophisticated as the
Speaker 1: companies that are messing around with them. It's the only
Speaker 1: way you're going to be able to launch the kind
Speaker 1: of investigations we need. Putting people in place, and this
Speaker 1: will be Congress's job to confirm them, but putting people
Speaker 1: in place in the administrations that really want to take
Speaker 1: this on. And Um, you know, you've got some really
Speaker 1: interesting people now working on this who are outside the
Speaker 1: box thinkers. Lena Khan's name has been nominated President Biden
Speaker 1: for the FDC and most of Sgnificantly, Merrick Garland knows
Speaker 1: about this like your husband. He's taught and I trust
Speaker 1: a lot, and um it's a very complex area. And
Speaker 1: he um Is brought it up when he was standing
Speaker 1: next to President Biden when he nominated him. So I
Speaker 1: think that's really hopeful when you have an attorney general
Speaker 1: that understands it. Now, you know, critics um and you
Speaker 1: know there's always critics of everything, but you know, critics say,
Speaker 1: oh and he trust. Come on, you know number one,
Speaker 1: it will drive up prices, it'll hurt innovation, and yet
Speaker 1: there's no evidence of that. It's like so much else
Speaker 1: that we hear from people who defend the status quo.
Speaker 1: Do you want to just take on those two things?
Speaker 1: You're right, the main criticisms are they first say, well,
Speaker 1: this will somehow hurt you guys. Well, one of the
Speaker 1: classics things that happens with anti trust is monopolies under price,
Speaker 1: so it seems really good, and then once they have
Speaker 1: no competitors, and this is history. We know, this is
Speaker 1: is why we have these laws on the book called
Speaker 1: an I trust. They then raised the prices and you're screwed.
Speaker 1: You know, It's like you get a real good deal
Speaker 1: to get in on something and then pretty soon you've
Speaker 1: got the prices and you're stuck with it. So that's
Speaker 1: just economics. That's what happens in unchecked capitalism. And so
Speaker 1: economists are aware that you have to have this check
Speaker 1: because basically price will go up. And I'd say the
Speaker 1: proof is in these longer term monopolies like your cable prices,
Speaker 1: they find they're getting some competition from streaming and the like,
Speaker 1: but over time those prices have gone way up. Um.
Speaker 1: The second thing is on innovation. So originally, and I'm
Speaker 1: so in favor of success, and I was in the
Speaker 1: private sector for fourteen years. I did represent m c
Speaker 1: I by the way, so I had a front row
Speaker 1: seat when we were fighting against the monopolies. It was
Speaker 1: right after the A T and T breakup, and I
Speaker 1: saw there that we got more innovation when A T
Speaker 1: and T was broken up. Cell phones when it started
Speaker 1: where the sides of like Gordon Geckos briefcase and that
Speaker 1: would be well Street, right, And it was all of
Speaker 1: that competition that got us to a better place. And
Speaker 1: right now we need competition in the seed industry, um,
Speaker 1: so that we can get better and better seeds to
Speaker 1: adapt to climate change. We need more competition when it
Speaker 1: comes to these tech companies, so not only do we
Speaker 1: regulate our way into privacy, but they come up with
Speaker 1: the solutions which it just has completely alluded us to
Speaker 1: our great detriment. And so um, that's my argument is
Speaker 1: they have brought us innovation. That's great. A T and
Speaker 1: T did too at the beginning. We you know, with
Speaker 1: the old telephones, right, but then you rejuvenate capitalism and
Speaker 1: you do it with the n I trust laws. Well,
Speaker 1: Senator Kloba, I'm so happy that you are in a
Speaker 1: leadership role on these critically important issues. It's just terrific.
Speaker 1: And the fact that you keep working so hard to
Speaker 1: be bipartisan to find partners. You've mentioned a bunch of
Speaker 1: Republican senators that you have worked with and are working with.
Speaker 1: I only hope that you know they will stay with
Speaker 1: you and be part of the solution to these problems
Speaker 1: that we face. Any last words about your exciting book, Well,
Speaker 1: for those that followed the presidential campaign, my presidential campaign,
Speaker 1: they will be amused to know that Pete and I
Speaker 1: of course had this ribbalry on the debate stage, but
Speaker 1: we're truly friends. His book was called trust that he
Speaker 1: put out this ball and of course mine is called
Speaker 1: antitrust um. So that's a little fun fact. But I
Speaker 1: think that for me taking those two issues and they
Speaker 1: really are tied together because we cannot have a strong
Speaker 1: democracy if it is undermined. All the time, as we
Speaker 1: saw in all of its horror on January six by
Speaker 1: disinformation and misinformation on the Internet. And so to me,
Speaker 1: they're kind of tied together, um, and they're not the
Speaker 1: easiest things. In the election case, you're basically taking on
Speaker 1: the entire Republican party structure that doesn't want to see
Speaker 1: that change. And in the antitrust you thank you all
Speaker 1: the monopolies. Other than that, you know it's gonna be
Speaker 1: a piece of k Hillary, but someone's got to do it,
Speaker 1: as you know from those hard things you took on internationally,
Speaker 1: I'm in your corner and I'm thrilled you're leading the charge.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for talking to us about this. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Amy's new book is called Antitrust, Taking
Speaker 1: on monopoly Power from the guilded Age to the Digital Age,
Speaker 1: and I think you could tell from listening to her
Speaker 1: she breaks it down and makes it all really understandable
Speaker 1: because we all have a stake in making sure that
Speaker 1: these monopolies don't control our lives. Well, that's it for
Speaker 1: today's episode, and I hope you're feeling inspired to go
Speaker 1: out and solve some problems. There is certainly no shortage
Speaker 1: of them. Around us. How do we rebuild in the
Speaker 1: wake of this pandemic. How do we address us climate
Speaker 1: change on our personal level too, you know, the great
Speaker 1: macro global level. How do we prevent guns from getting
Speaker 1: in the hands of the wrong people? You know, one
Speaker 1: of the biggest problems I'm focused on right now is
Speaker 1: how do we persuade people to get vaccinated? People who say, oh,
Speaker 1: I just don't know. Well, if you're close to somebody
Speaker 1: who's saying that, try to help problem solved, to get
Speaker 1: them the information they need to get vaccinated. And then,
Speaker 1: of course I'm always trying to solve the problems facing
Speaker 1: our country in the world. But you know, that's a
Speaker 1: topic for another day. Before I go, I want to
Speaker 1: make a really exciting announcement about our last episode of
Speaker 1: this season. We're going to turn the tables and let you,
Speaker 1: our listeners, ask the questions. I'll be joined by a
Speaker 1: surprise guest, someone who makes me laugh all the time.
Speaker 1: So if you have a question for me about the podcast,
Speaker 1: about public service, about my favorite pants suit, what where
Speaker 1: it might be, please give us a call at four
Speaker 1: four five eight one four four one, and to all
Speaker 1: the phone everse among us. Don't worry I won't actually
Speaker 1: pick up the phone, so you can call seven leave
Speaker 1: a voicemail any time of the day or night. We
Speaker 1: just asked that you try to keep it to a
Speaker 1: minute or so, or if you prefer, you can email
Speaker 1: us your question at You and Me Both pod at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. Once again, that number is nine one
Speaker 1: four four five eight one four four one. I really
Speaker 1: look forward to hearing from you. You and Me Both
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