1
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360
Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind production of My

2
00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,560
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

3
00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,239
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

4
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,440
Speaker 1: today we're bringing you an interview with the physicist and

5
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,520
Speaker 1: author Brian Green. This one was a real treat, except

6
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,800
Speaker 1: we did have a major audio snag that did mean

7
00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,319
Speaker 1: that I was not able to be on the call

8
00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,200
Speaker 1: during this interview. So if you hear any kind of like, uh,

9
00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,160
Speaker 1: weird sound shenanigans going on in the moments my questions

10
00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,080
Speaker 1: come in, will be real with you, it's because I

11
00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,120
Speaker 1: had to go back and record them later. But Robert,

12
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,080
Speaker 1: you you did me a great honor and asking my

13
00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,040
Speaker 1: questions for me during the interview. Uh, so thank you

14
00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 1: for doing that. Uh, Robert, what was it like speaking

15
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,680
Speaker 1: to Brian Green? I have to ask, Uh, it was

16
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,680
Speaker 1: it was pretty great. I had. I had interviewed him

17
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,080
Speaker 1: once before at the World Science Festival. The World Science Festival,

18
00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,040
Speaker 1: for anyone who who doesn't know and remember, is, uh,

19
00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:06,039
Speaker 1: is this awesome gathering of of minds that happens every

20
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,200
Speaker 1: year in New York. But then it is then all

21
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 1: these different panel conversations about these mind blowing topics they

22
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,320
Speaker 1: go out on the internet, um over you know, the

23
00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,240
Speaker 1: months to follow, and so I had I had talked

24
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,520
Speaker 1: to him briefly about black holes, kind of a rushed,

25
00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 1: uh you know, busy kind of interview, and that was

26
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,600
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. But this was this was

27
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,759
Speaker 1: a lot more relaxed. Like I was talking from my closet.

28
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,960
Speaker 1: He was talking from you know, I think a study

29
00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,759
Speaker 1: or or or some similar room in his own home.

30
00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,800
Speaker 1: And so it felt felt a bit more laid back,

31
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,399
Speaker 1: uh this time around, though it was of course, you know,

32
00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,400
Speaker 1: disappointing we weren't able to have you in there as well, Joe.

33
00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 1: But more to the point, Brian is just, uh, you know,

34
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 1: a brilliant mind. He's you know, one of the best

35
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,360
Speaker 1: known proponents, if not the best known proponent living proponent

36
00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 1: of superstring theory. Uh. The co founder of the World's

37
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,600
Speaker 1: Fiance Foundation, UH, Professor of Mathematics and Physics, Department of

38
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,080
Speaker 1: Mathematics at Columbia University in New York City, and he's

39
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,679
Speaker 1: the author of several books, UM The Elegant Universe, in

40
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,320
Speaker 1: UM The Fabric of the Cosmos in two thousand four,

41
00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,880
Speaker 1: Icarus at the Edge of Time in two thousand eight,

42
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 1: which is a children's book. Uh that that you know,

43
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 1: breaks down black holes for young readers. Uh, there's the

44
00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,280
Speaker 1: hidden reality parallel universes in the Deep Laws of the

45
00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,160
Speaker 1: Cosmos from eleven and then his latest book. Uh. One

46
00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,519
Speaker 1: of the main reasons we uh we we decided to

47
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,480
Speaker 1: chat with him in this episode until the end of

48
00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,240
Speaker 1: time mind matter in our search for meaning in an

49
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,960
Speaker 1: evolving universe. I really enjoyed this book. One thing I

50
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,520
Speaker 1: was surprised by is how many subjects he gets into.

51
00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,600
Speaker 1: This book is about the idea of of finitude and

52
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,840
Speaker 1: impermanence and he so he of course explores physics, you know,

53
00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 1: the history of the universe and the future fade of

54
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,680
Speaker 1: the universe, uh, in a physical sense, but he also

55
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 1: a lot of time talking about like the social sciences

56
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,280
Speaker 1: and the humanities and our obsession with living forever or

57
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,120
Speaker 1: or with impermanence and loss and uh. And I found

58
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,840
Speaker 1: it a really interesting and actually kind of beautiful book.

59
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah I I'm gonna stress this again during the interview itself,

60
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,840
Speaker 1: but if you are hesitant about picking up this book

61
00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,120
Speaker 1: because you're thinking, oh, it's it's a book by physicist

62
00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:22,919
Speaker 1: it's gonna be it's just gonna be a bunch of

63
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,200
Speaker 1: physics stuff. It's gonna be about black holes. It's gonna

64
00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 1: be hard to relate. No, no, no no, this book is

65
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,040
Speaker 1: is very relatable. It's you know, what's somewhere in the

66
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 1: neighborhood of three hundred and something pages, but but covers

67
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 1: a lot of ground and a lot of relatable ground,

68
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,160
Speaker 1: getting into you know, at times, how the how, how

69
00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:45,320
Speaker 1: the how our brains contemplate the cosmos, where religion comes from, uh,

70
00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, the the role of scientific investigation in our

71
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:54,800
Speaker 1: sort of h quest to deal with the undeniable reality

72
00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,840
Speaker 1: of mortality in our lives. Yeah. He even gets into

73
00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,120
Speaker 1: realms like like philosophy, fee of mind and like you know,

74
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 1: the cognitive science of religion, which we've talked about on

75
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,960
Speaker 1: the show a good bit and and uh and mythology

76
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,480
Speaker 1: and all that. And I would say I was really impressed.

77
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 1: He does a really good synthesis of complex topics that

78
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,279
Speaker 1: are outside his field. And um, I thought it was

79
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:21,159
Speaker 1: just a really thoroughly informative and entertaining, uh journey to

80
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,720
Speaker 1: go on. Yeah, And of course, if anyone out there

81
00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,919
Speaker 1: is is if you are familiar with the World Science Festival,

82
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,119
Speaker 1: then you you you get it. You have a taste

83
00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,320
Speaker 1: of the sort of interest Brian has because you see

84
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,280
Speaker 1: the sort of topics that are covered at World Science Festival. Uh,

85
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,640
Speaker 1: the diverse array of individuals who are who gathered gathered

86
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,240
Speaker 1: there to discuss these topics, and I think that's reflected

87
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,800
Speaker 1: in this book especially, so highly recommend the book. It

88
00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 1: is available now, I think in all formats you can

89
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,080
Speaker 1: get a kindle edition. I think the audio book is available. Uh.

90
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,160
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a great book for any time.

91
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 1: I think it's especially a good book, uh for our

92
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,599
Speaker 1: current reality. Totally. All right, Well, without further ado, let's

93
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 1: jump into the interview. Brian. Your new book is Until

94
00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 1: the End of Time, which is an incredible title because

95
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,520
Speaker 1: there's this literal expectation of cracking open a book with

96
00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,359
Speaker 1: a name like that written by a noted physicist. But

97
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,080
Speaker 1: there's there's also the personal aspect of that title and

98
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,680
Speaker 1: the religious connotations of the phrase, you know, all of

99
00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 1: which are a major part of the book as well.

100
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,720
Speaker 1: How did all of this come together in your your

101
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,560
Speaker 1: writing of Until the End of Time? Well, it's a

102
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 1: book that I've been thinking about in one form or

103
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:37,520
Speaker 1: another for maybe thirty years, slowly gestating and really recognizing

104
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:43,080
Speaker 1: the power of having a cosmic perspective where you see

105
00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,560
Speaker 1: your life as we all do in the everyday sense

106
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,080
Speaker 1: of human experience, but you're able to tell a parallel

107
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,240
Speaker 1: story where you recognize that you are part of this

108
00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,080
Speaker 1: grand cosmic involting that reaches back to the Big Bang

109
00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 1: and goes as far as our equations can take us

110
00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,720
Speaker 1: into the far future. And the depth of perspective that

111
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,400
Speaker 1: that can provide is I think quite gratifying, and that

112
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,919
Speaker 1: really was the motivation for writing the book, So that

113
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,400
Speaker 1: people can see their lives within a whole variety of stories.

114
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,160
Speaker 1: The reductions to count, to the physicist, all the way

115
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,960
Speaker 1: to the cosmological account of the astronomer. You eve a

116
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,080
Speaker 1: wonderful interconnected tapestry of these subjects. But but I do

117
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,800
Speaker 1: wonder did anyone try to dissuade you from writing a

118
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,960
Speaker 1: book that covers ultimately the entirety of human history and

119
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 1: the known universe in a single volume. No. But the

120
00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,120
Speaker 1: usual reaction before had written the book was how many

121
00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,560
Speaker 1: volumes is it going to be? Is it ten thousand pages?

122
00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,719
Speaker 1: You know, there was a limit to the number of

123
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,600
Speaker 1: words that anybody in a single lifetime will be willing

124
00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,599
Speaker 1: or able to read. Those sort of equips were quite common,

125
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,560
Speaker 1: but the the idea of say a three hundred page book,

126
00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:00,320
Speaker 1: an ordinary length book taking on cosmology, the origin of

127
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,479
Speaker 1: the universe, the origin of life, the origin of mind,

128
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 1: the meaning of consciousness, theorizing of language, the telling of stories,

129
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,400
Speaker 1: the origin of myth, the origins of religion, how that

130
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:17,520
Speaker 1: interweaves with human culture, creative expression, and then onto the

131
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:22,960
Speaker 1: developments from today until time scales that are so fantastically

132
00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,360
Speaker 1: long that we don't even have names for the numbers

133
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,880
Speaker 1: that describe the durations that we're talking about. Yeah, it's

134
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,480
Speaker 1: a it's a hefty chronicle. But being able to sit

135
00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,600
Speaker 1: down and read it in three hundred pages, to me

136
00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,080
Speaker 1: was the point that you would be able to see

137
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,520
Speaker 1: all of these unfoldings in a reasonable period of time

138
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 1: with minimal effort, and to recognize your place within it. Yes,

139
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 1: and I do want to stress to our our readers,

140
00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 1: our listeners rather that it is a very very readable book.

141
00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,520
Speaker 1: It's just there's you know, it contains a dense amount

142
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,240
Speaker 1: of information, I guess, but it is um uh one

143
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,120
Speaker 1: never feels overwhelmed by all of this data. It's it's

144
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,360
Speaker 1: presented in a wonderfully and at times personable way. Yes,

145
00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,720
Speaker 1: thank you. A core theme of this book is the

146
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,240
Speaker 1: concept of entropy. Entropy is kind of the evil sorcerer

147
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 1: driving the magic of impermanence. And I think sometimes people

148
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:20,120
Speaker 1: get confused when they hear about entropy as tending toward disorder.

149
00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,720
Speaker 1: You know, it's often defined as as the tendency of

150
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,640
Speaker 1: things to move into disorder, because order and disorder seem

151
00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 1: like subjective concepts depending on human judgment. And in the

152
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,400
Speaker 1: book you have a wonderful way of explaining entropy in

153
00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,760
Speaker 1: terms of statistics. It's a way that makes clear how

154
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,040
Speaker 1: it's actually an objective phenomenon, not depending on what feels

155
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 1: orderly to a human observer. Can you explain this here? Yes,

156
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:51,760
Speaker 1: And the quantitative version of entropy does rely upon and

157
00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:57,800
Speaker 1: resonate quite strongly with the qualitative version that you just describe.

158
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,839
Speaker 1: So roughly speaking, when we talk about entropyople're talking about disorder.

159
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,040
Speaker 1: And the second law of thermodynamics is this idea that

160
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,200
Speaker 1: things tend to go from order toward disorder. That's the

161
00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,480
Speaker 1: natural direction in which events unfold. And when you want

162
00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,360
Speaker 1: to make this more precise, because you're right when you

163
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,040
Speaker 1: hear that, you're like, come on, physicists, you're talking about

164
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,960
Speaker 1: like order and disorder. You know, there doesn't seem to

165
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,600
Speaker 1: be enough rigor in that kind of description, but we

166
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,559
Speaker 1: can make it quite rigorous in the following sense. When

167
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 1: things are highly ordered, if you arrange the ingredients, you

168
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,560
Speaker 1: typically mess up that order. Right, If your books are

169
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,959
Speaker 1: all in nice alphabetical order, someone comes along when you're

170
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 1: not looking and sort of rearranges a few books, it's

171
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,280
Speaker 1: obvious that things have changed because they're no longer in

172
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 1: that nice orderly progression from A to Z. So that's

173
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,840
Speaker 1: a situation in which there are very few rearrangements that

174
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,520
Speaker 1: would leave the system unchanged, And that counting of the

175
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,920
Speaker 1: number of rearrangements is what we mean by low disorder.

176
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,120
Speaker 1: On the contrary, if those books, if they're all just

177
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,000
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, thrown in a heap on your desk,

178
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 1: someone comes along and they rearrange the disordered mess. You'll

179
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 1: never even know that they were there, because that rearrangement

180
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,560
Speaker 1: and a whole host of other rearrangements leave the messing

181
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,360
Speaker 1: looking heap of books looking like a messy heap of books.

182
00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 1: So in that case, there are many rearrangements that leave

183
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 1: the system looking pretty much unchanged. And so what we

184
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,160
Speaker 1: physicists do We simply count. It's accounting exercise. Give us

185
00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,319
Speaker 1: a system, will count how many rearrangements of the ingredients

186
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,839
Speaker 1: leave it looking the same unchanged, versus how many leave

187
00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,440
Speaker 1: it looking changed. And a disordered system high entropy means

188
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,280
Speaker 1: there are many rearrangements that have no impact. An ordered

189
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,160
Speaker 1: system low entropy means are very few rearrangements that leave

190
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,320
Speaker 1: it looking the same. That's how we make it precise.

191
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 1: Why is it that seemingly orderly structures like stars, planets,

192
00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,840
Speaker 1: and life forms are not violations of the universe's tendency

193
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,840
Speaker 1: toward disorder. Yeah, that's the big that's a big puzzle,

194
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,560
Speaker 1: and it's certainly an issue that I spend some time

195
00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,680
Speaker 1: on in the book because it's one of the critical

196
00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,320
Speaker 1: questions to ask and one of the important questions to answer.

197
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,920
Speaker 1: And here's how the answer goes. This law of thermodynamics,

198
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,080
Speaker 1: the second law that says that things go from order

199
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:30,200
Speaker 1: to disorder, says that in an overall sense, if you

200
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,400
Speaker 1: look at the entirety of a physical system, or let's

201
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,360
Speaker 1: just be grandiose, the entirety of the universe. Over time,

202
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,160
Speaker 1: the entirety will go from order toward disorder. But that

203
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 1: does not prevent little pockets of order from forming here

204
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,120
Speaker 1: and there, so long as in the process of those

205
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:55,040
Speaker 1: orderly formations coming together, they release enough heat and waste

206
00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,920
Speaker 1: and disorder to the environment to compensate for the order

207
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 1: that happens in that local environment. And stars are the

208
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,960
Speaker 1: perfect example. You've got this gas, it's floating in space.

209
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 1: Gravity has the capacity to pull things together, and as

210
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:17,480
Speaker 1: the gas comes together, it ultimately ignites nuclear processes because

211
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 1: it becomes so hot and dense through the gravitational pull,

212
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,560
Speaker 1: driving it into an ever smaller region of space. And

213
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 1: that actually is an orderly configuration. But in the process

214
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 1: of that orderly configuration forming, heat and light is given

215
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,520
Speaker 1: off by the birth of the star, and that heat

216
00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,760
Speaker 1: and light spreads to the wider environment, injecting disorder into

217
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 1: the surroundings. And that disorder in the surroundings compensates and

218
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,679
Speaker 1: more than compensates for the order that's formed in the

219
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,760
Speaker 1: star itself. And I call this the entropic two step.

220
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 1: What it is, it's kind of a dance. Right, you've

221
00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:01,679
Speaker 1: got order happening here. Right, you've got disorder happening here.

222
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,160
Speaker 1: And if they choreographed their dance in the right way,

223
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,720
Speaker 1: then the overall entropy goes up, even though you can

224
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,840
Speaker 1: have orderly structures form in the process. Now, some of

225
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,280
Speaker 1: my favorite passages in the book concern it's core contemplation

226
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,840
Speaker 1: of impermanence. Specifically, when you get into into discussions of

227
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,360
Speaker 1: consciousness and the human experience and religion, you write that

228
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,280
Speaker 1: you're you remain partial. To Stephen J. Gould's take that quote,

229
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,640
Speaker 1: all religion began with an awareness of death. Can you

230
00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:39,040
Speaker 1: expound on this, well, Religion is this wondrous, really human

231
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,600
Speaker 1: construct that allows us to cope with some of the

232
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 1: most difficult of challenges that we face. In the most

233
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,360
Speaker 1: difficult challenge of all is the realization that we are impermanent,

234
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 1: the realization that we will all die. And early on

235
00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:05,200
Speaker 1: religion came up with a number of very powerful ways

236
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 1: of dealing with that singular realization. I mean, think about it.

237
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,520
Speaker 1: There are species on the planet that react to death,

238
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,040
Speaker 1: elephants more, and they're dead. But I don't think that

239
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,200
Speaker 1: their elephants that are walking around saying, Wow, I'm going

240
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,160
Speaker 1: to die one day, what's the point of being here?

241
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,000
Speaker 1: And then what's it all about? I don't think that

242
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,040
Speaker 1: they take it in in that way, while we humans do,

243
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,520
Speaker 1: and so religion came up with or provided us a

244
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 1: number of ways of dealing with it. I mean, you know,

245
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,200
Speaker 1: if you don't view death as the end, if you

246
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 1: view death as a stepping stone to another existence, another life,

247
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 1: well that certainly is is something that is deeply consoling,

248
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,840
Speaker 1: right if you think of death as one of a

249
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,480
Speaker 1: cycle of births and deaths and rebirths, so that again,

250
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,560
Speaker 1: it's just part of this ongoing cyclical process that ultimately

251
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,120
Speaker 1: will take it to some promised state of being, some

252
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,400
Speaker 1: state of calm, nirvana, whatever you want to call it.

253
00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,920
Speaker 1: That's another powerful way of dealing with this realization. So

254
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:15,000
Speaker 1: within almost every religion is some means of coping with death.

255
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,200
Speaker 1: And that's why Stephen J. Gould described religions as originating

256
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 1: in the realization of our own mortality. And to me,

257
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:28,440
Speaker 1: it's a very powerful tool that some rely upon in

258
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,720
Speaker 1: order to cope with a devastating recognition of mortality. And

259
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,800
Speaker 1: do you see that as part of the the human condition?

260
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,520
Speaker 1: Reflected in the pursuit of science as well. I do

261
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,480
Speaker 1: in a different way. We scientists are are driven to

262
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 1: understand where we came from, how we develop, how we evolve,

263
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,360
Speaker 1: how the universe will evolve, or driven to find the

264
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:57,480
Speaker 1: deep laws that undergird existence and look. Different scientists will

265
00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 1: do this for different reasons, but I can speak personally.

266
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,359
Speaker 1: I am driven at a fundamental level by the recognition

267
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 1: of the finite time that I have here, and I

268
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: deeply want to know as much as I can about

269
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 1: how I find myself in this predicament at all, and

270
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,920
Speaker 1: I want to understand, and it's a beautiful story when

271
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:25,000
Speaker 1: you understand it, how the big bank gave rise to galaxy, stars, planets,

272
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,480
Speaker 1: and ultimately life. I deeply want to understand how life

273
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 1: emerge and how consciousness flourishes within certain of those living systems.

274
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 1: I mean, we are conscious beings and that's where our

275
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,840
Speaker 1: footprint in reality has it's it's it's impact right without

276
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 1: consciousness says, as a number of great thinkers across the

277
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 1: ages have said, You've got nothing, and so deeply understanding

278
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 1: the sequence of events that led us to this place

279
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,080
Speaker 1: where we can look out and wonder and ask questions

280
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,000
Speaker 1: and and experience each other and experience beauty to me

281
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 1: in the brief flash of time that I have here,

282
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,640
Speaker 1: I want to understand that as fully as possible. So,

283
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,200
Speaker 1: you know, there's this wonderful sociology social anthropologist Ernest Becker

284
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 1: who had a great impact on me back when I

285
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,400
Speaker 1: read his work, and I guess it was the seventies

286
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,480
Speaker 1: and eighties, a long time ago now. And you know

287
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,720
Speaker 1: he said in a book called The Denial of Death

288
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,800
Speaker 1: that all of human activity can be traced to trying

289
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 1: to cope with this realization that we have these minds

290
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,720
Speaker 1: that can soar to the edge of the universe, and

291
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,560
Speaker 1: yet after a century we are put into the ground

292
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,080
Speaker 1: and we're turned into dust. That is a stunning collision

293
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: of perspectives, and we struggle to make sense of it.

294
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,480
Speaker 1: All right, we need to take a quick break, but

295
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 1: we will be right back with more. And we're back

296
00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 1: in chapter seven, Brains and Belief. You follow the evolution

297
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 1: of religious thought and you compare it to scientific investigation,

298
00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,200
Speaker 1: specifically mathematics and physics. Could you speak to the basic

299
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,680
Speaker 1: similarities as you see them, between Eastern religious cosmologies and science,

300
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,119
Speaker 1: as well as where the often popularized similarities end. Well,

301
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,680
Speaker 1: that's right. So a lot of people are fond of

302
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:30,160
Speaker 1: citing parallels between insights that emerged from Eastern religions, Eastern philosophies,

303
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,760
Speaker 1: and things that have emerged in science, and in fact,

304
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,280
Speaker 1: in the book I describe a little bit of how

305
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, My older brother is Hari Krishna devotee and

306
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:48,359
Speaker 1: has been for decades, and certainly in the early days

307
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,480
Speaker 1: of his involvement in that practice, when we would talk

308
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,119
Speaker 1: about work I was doing in cosmology or physics, it

309
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 1: was not infrequent for him to say to made, we

310
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,840
Speaker 1: already know all that you know. It's in this or

311
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: that Vedic text, which I found both curious and frustrating

312
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 1: at the same time. And when I followed some of

313
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,120
Speaker 1: those through I understood where he was coming from. There

314
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,720
Speaker 1: is a resonance of of language and perspective that you

315
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 1: do find between some of the things that we seek

316
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,399
Speaker 1: and some of the things that have been sought after

317
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 1: by thinkers throughout the ages. We asked similar questions. In science,

318
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 1: we answer those questions with mathematics and with experiment and

319
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 1: with observation, and that's the way in which we feel

320
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 1: that we're making progress. And we can write down an

321
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,879
Speaker 1: equation that can predict things about the universe that happened,

322
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 1: you know, billions of years ago, and then we look

323
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,320
Speaker 1: out in the night sky to see what we think

324
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,600
Speaker 1: should be the remnant of those processes from thirteen billion

325
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,919
Speaker 1: years ago. And when we see those things out in

326
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 1: the night sky today, we say, wow. We we we

327
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 1: seem to understand something may not be the full truth,

328
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 1: but we're heading towards truth. And and the issue with

329
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 1: Eastern philosophy and Eastern religions is much of it emerges

330
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 1: from introspection, from an inner journey to understand the human

331
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 1: reaction to the universe. And so the barometer of of

332
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 1: success and truth is quite different. The barometer of truth is,

333
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, does it feel right? Does it seem that

334
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 1: this gives me a better sense of how I fit

335
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: within the wider world. Those are important questions, but they're

336
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,199
Speaker 1: different questions from the ones that we answer, or at

337
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,440
Speaker 1: least try to answer in science. And I would stress

338
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 1: right here, and this is vitally. I think both are

339
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 1: crucial to having a full experience of the world. If

340
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,880
Speaker 1: you stop with understanding the objective world through the language

341
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,920
Speaker 1: of mathematics and observation and experiment. That's all that you do.

342
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 1: You've cut off the dominant thing that makes us who

343
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 1: we are, which is our inner world, our inner experience.

344
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: So I think you really need to blend the insights

345
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 1: from all of these perspectives in order to have the

346
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,880
Speaker 1: fullest experience of reality. In one of the early chapters

347
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 1: of the book, you mentioned as an aside that physicists

348
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 1: use not just what they know, not just proven theories

349
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: and mathematical reasoning to drive their research focus, but also

350
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: what you call a hard to describe intuitive mathematical sensibility. Now,

351
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 1: I know you say it's hard to describe, but can

352
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 1: you talk anymore about this kind of physicist's intuition. Yeah,

353
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: I thought I was getting myself off the hook by

354
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 1: objecting the hard to explain there, But but I'll do

355
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 1: my best. When you're trained in the language of mathematics,

356
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 1: you acquire a sense of which mathematical sentences are good,

357
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: ones are sharp, ones are effective, ones are economical, ones

358
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: are beautiful, ones are elegant ones. It's like in England,

359
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 1: it's like we all are trained in a natural language.

360
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you and I both speak English, maybe speak

361
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: other languages too. But in English, we can recognize those

362
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: sentences that are are special. Right. We can reach Shakespeare

363
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: and we recognize what a turn of phrase that was

364
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 1: in king Lear, Or we can read Whitman and say, Wow,

365
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: what a collection of words to put together in that

366
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: line of that poem and say leaves of grants or

367
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 1: whatever it is that moves us. Similarly, we can do

368
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 1: that as as scientists, as as mathematicians. And what we

369
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 1: have found, and this is the danger this is the

370
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 1: danger zone. What we found over the years is that

371
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 1: those mathematical sentences that have the cleanest, most economical, widest

372
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 1: explanatory reach, with the fewest number of assumptions, the fewest

373
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: number of instructions, other sentences that you need to combine

374
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: the with to make sense of them, they seem to

375
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: be the mathematical sences that describe reality. And why I

376
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: say that's dangerous is because it could easily be that

377
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: our mathematical aesthetic sensibility changes over time so that those

378
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: sentences and math that have proven relevant to the world

379
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: are the ones that strike us as beautiful and elegant.

380
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: It could well be this feedback loop, and so you

381
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: have to be very careful using this approach in trying

382
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 1: to go forward and understanding things. But when you're doing

383
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: your cutting into research at the frontier of understanding and

384
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: you don't have experiment, you don't have observation yet to

385
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: guide you, that mathematical aesthetic sense is what we often

386
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: do make use of in order to go forward. So

387
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 1: you've at times described yourself as a reductionist in common usage,

388
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: I think this label is often a pejorative. It's um

389
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: It's what you call somebody when you mean that they're

390
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: ignoring important qualities, nuances, or context in the course of

391
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: explaining something. Obviously you don't mean it in this pejorative sense.

392
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 1: So what is the scientific project of reductionism and how

393
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: does it influence the way you see the world. Well,

394
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: the project is quite straightforward. It's attempting to reduce reductionism,

395
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: trying to reduce all physical phenomenon, matter, and the processes

396
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: that happen in the world, reduce them to their most

397
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: fundamental ingredients, the most fundamental constituents, and the fundamental laws

398
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: that govern how those constituents interact with each other, how

399
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: they come together into larger agglomerations that ultimately yield structures

400
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: like stars, desks, planets, microphones, computer screens, and everything else

401
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: we experience in the world around us. Now, you're right,

402
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: the phrase reductionists is often used as a pejorative, and

403
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: the reason for that is partly maybe one of our

404
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: own making. Sometimes we scientists, when we speak of reductionism,

405
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: we end the conversation with the reductionists perspective, as if

406
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: that's all you ever need to know to understand the

407
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: deep qualities of reality. What we really mean by that,

408
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: or again, maybe I should speak for myself. People have

409
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: different views. What I mean by that is the reductionist

410
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: account the ingredients and the laws provides the rock bottom

411
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: substrate on which reality is then built. And I fully

412
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: do believe that everything, people to planets are nothing but

413
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: collections of particles, large collections governed by physical law. But

414
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: I also saying, exactly the same breath, with the same

415
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: level of intensity, that you need to invoke other layers

416
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: of description that are more appropriate to the kinds of

417
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: questions that may interest you at other layers of reality.

418
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: So the chemist comes along and says, yeah, you physicists,

419
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: you talk about those fundamental particles, but I want to

420
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: talk about things that the level of Adams and molecules. Fantastic.

421
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: The biologists comes along and says, look, your physicists, you

422
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: chemist assured, but I want to talk about things at

423
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: the level of cells and organelles and the processes that

424
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: are underlying life. And yes, that's the right language and

425
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: the right level of description to use. And the psychologist

426
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: comes along, and the neuroscientist comes along and says, I

427
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: want to understand things at the level of human experience,

428
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: like what's happening in the brain, and so those are

429
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: the ingredients, and that's the language that those scientists and

430
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: those thinkers will use. And then the philosophers and the

431
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: humanists come along and they say, great, you physicists and scientists,

432
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: you talk about the underlying structure, but I want to

433
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: talk about things like human reflection and love and grief

434
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: and and achievement and aspiration and and all those things

435
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: that occur up here at the human level, and you

436
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: should use that language, and you should describe reality in

437
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: those terms. It wouldn't make any sense to talk about

438
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 1: the experience of grief at the level of atoms, molecules, particles,

439
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: and Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism, right, You wouldn't gain the

440
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: kind of insight that you want. But the point that

441
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: I make in the book is that these stories are

442
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: not distinct in the sense that the physicists reductionist account

443
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: threads through all of those stories, and it can give

444
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: you surprising insights even up here at the human level.

445
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: I would never want to use it as a substitute

446
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: for Shakespeare, or for Rembrandt, or for Picasso, the or Beethoven,

447
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: the kinds of creations that deeply affect us as human beings.

448
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: I don't want to describe that in terms of molecules

449
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: and atoms, but in principle you could, and that, in

450
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: principle can give you some insights into particular the issue

451
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: of free will and so so there are connections between

452
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: these stories. But if you leave out the upper levels

453
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: and you focus solely on the reductions account, you deserve

454
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: to use it as a pejorative because you're missing out

455
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 1: on so many other qualities that are better described in

456
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: different languages. Let's talk about entropy in the long term

457
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: fate of the universe. What is the fate ultimately of

458
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: beings that can think, well, it's a question that we

459
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: can address, at least under the assumption that our current

460
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: understanding of the laws of physics and our current understanding

461
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: of the matter that makes up reality, that that is

462
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: a good description that will continue to hold arbitrarily far

463
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: into the future. If it doesn't, then then radically different

464
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: things might happen, but we'll be shooting in the dark

465
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: with our current level of understanding to conjecture what those

466
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: alternative futures might be. So if you grant me that

467
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: that I can use my current understanding of things to

468
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: go forward, then you can show that rough by about

469
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: ten to the fifty or so years from now. It's

470
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: a big number, right, We're now about ten to the

471
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: ten years from the Big Bang, and that difference of

472
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: forty is in the exponent so it's not forty more years, right,

473
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: it's multiplying it by tent at the forty, which is

474
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: a huge factor. So very very far in the future.

475
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: You can argue, as actually Freeman Dyson, great physicist, once did,

476
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: that the process of thought considered to be a process

477
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 1: of computation, and that's really what each individual thought is.

478
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: It's taken some inputs and it's yielding some outputs. That

479
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: physical process necessarily is an entropically increasing process. Second, thermodynamics

480
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: which means it necessarily yields waste heat, and that waste

481
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: heat needs to be admitted to the wider world. And

482
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: we do that all the time. Right, if you had

483
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: a nice infrared camera on me right now, in my head,

484
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: I'm thinking hard to answer your questions, and you'd see

485
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: the this heat coming off of my head. Right, we

486
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: know that like the military infrared goggles, you know of

487
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: that imagery that that you can see that heat emanating

488
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: from biological source. Now in the far future, you can

489
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: argue that the universe at some point will not be

490
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: able to absorb that heat. It will be kind of

491
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: stuffed with as much as it can hold. And at

492
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: that point, if a thinking being thinks one more thought,

493
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: it will not be able to admit the heat, so

494
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: it will burn up in the tropic waste generated by

495
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: the very process of thought itself. So that's the sense

496
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: in which thought will come to an end under the

497
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 1: assumptions that we're making. Thought is not something that will

498
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: be able to last into eternity. And does that does

499
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: that change the way you or or affect the way

500
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: you view the you know, our current lives. So does

501
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: that make what we do, you know? Pointless? Or does

502
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: it make what we do more beautiful? I know you

503
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: get into this a little bit in the book. I do,

504
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: and in many ways it's the main point of the

505
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: whole narrative is to address that question, because a natural reaction,

506
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: certainly is, you know, if it's all going to go away,

507
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: if matter is going to disintegrate, if everythinking being will

508
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: ultimately I think it's final thought, then what's the point

509
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: of it all? Because I think many of us, and

510
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: certainly I, for a long time, even if implicitly, imagine

511
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: that the importance of a life or thinking personally in

512
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: my own life is that I'd leave some kind of mark,

513
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: some kind of legacy, either through my family, my kids,

514
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: or maybe through my work or through some kind of

515
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: interaction that would continue to ripple through the unfolding of

516
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: the future, having less and less impact over time, but

517
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: nevertheless still having an imprint out there, even if just

518
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: in some modest implicit way. But if there's no thinking

519
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: beings left in the far future, like like, what's the point?

520
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: And I went through a dark period in my own

521
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: life coming into terms with this question, but ultimately had

522
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 1: kind of I don't I don't know what the right

523
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: word is and epiphany, uh, a spiritual moment. I'm not

524
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: sure what the right language is, but there was a

525
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: moment when I kind of shifted my perspective radically and

526
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: quickly to the recognition that it's actually more powerful to

527
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: recognize that we have this little cosmic oasis in the

528
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: unfolding of the universe in which living beings and thinking

529
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: beings can exist. It's as if the universe rises up

530
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: for a brief moment and is able to look around

531
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: and contemplate itself, and we are the beings that allow

532
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: that contemplation to take place. And when you do that

533
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: contemplation and recognize that you are the result of quantum

534
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: processes stretching back to the beginning each you which that

535
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: could have turned out like that way instead of this

536
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: yielding a world in which we would not be here.

537
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: You recognize it's astonishing that we are here, against astounding odds,

538
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: we exist. And it's even more than that we are

539
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: these special collections that can think and reflect and we

540
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: can we can do things right. We can have these conversations,

541
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: we can join into powerful coalitions that can do things

542
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: that the individual would be unable to write. We can

543
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: build the pyramids, we can we can write Beethoven's Ninth

544
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: sent And if you allow us to take credit as

545
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: a species, right we we can figure out the equations

546
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: of quantum mechanics, the equations of the general theory of relativity,

547
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: allowing us to figure out all these qualities of the universe.

548
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: And to me, that just fills me with gratitude for

549
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: being here at all. So, rather than sort of looking

550
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: to the future or looking to some deity to bestow

551
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: meaning upon us, we recognize that we are empowered to

552
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: find our own meaning. That's the only place that meaning

553
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: is going to come from. And when we do come

554
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: to terms with what matters to us in the here

555
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: and now, it's a more powerful version of meaning because

556
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: it's organic, it comes from ourselves. We manufacture it, for sure.

557
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: But how wonderful that we can manufacture it. How wonderful

558
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: that the collection of particles can ask these questions and

559
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: come to answers, even if our presence in the universe

560
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: is fleeting. It's such a powerful sentiment, such a powerful

561
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: view of things. I mean, it's for the century, but

562
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: but but even like specifically to what everyone is going

563
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: through right now, I think, yeah, for sure, I mean,

564
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:52,919
Speaker 1: we are in an astonishing, devastating, painful, tragic era right

565
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: now that we hope will pass, of course, but I

566
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: do find solace in taking this cosmic perspective. It doesn't

567
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: take away the pain. Nothing will you lose a loved one,

568
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: Nothing will take away that pain. Time can sometimes heal,

569
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: but nothing can or should take away that pain. But

570
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 1: if at the same time you can take a step

571
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: back and see the cosmic perspective, recognize that there is

572
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: this little piece of the cosmos that we inhabit in

573
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: both space and time, and how wondrous that is. I

574
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: think there's a degree of solace. Doesn't take away the tragedy,

575
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: but there's a degree of solace that that can provide,

576
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: which I think is quite powerful. All Right, we need

577
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: to take a quick break, but we will be right

578
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: back with more than and we're back now. You're, of

579
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: course the the co founder of the World Science Festival, uh,

580
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 1: something that I look forward to every year, Such a

581
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: wonderful collection of great minds coming together to discuss sign

582
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: centific topics. Um. But of course you had to make

583
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: a very understandable call to cancel the live portions of

584
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: the through event this year. Can can you touch on

585
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: on what the current or emerging plans are for for

586
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: online presentations. Well, the idea is to see this as

587
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: both the challenge and an opportunity for the Festival to

588
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: create a new kind of program And what really distinguished us,

589
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: say thirteen years ago when we began the Live Festival.

590
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: At that time there was not as much live event

591
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: focus as there is today, and we were kind of

592
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: a pioneer in taking ideas that are normally viewed as

593
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: sort of abstract and not for general consumption, and through

594
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: the clever and powerful production techniques of Tracy Day, the

595
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: other co founder who really cut her tea fin some

596
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: of the best broadcast television you know, from Nightline and

597
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: programs on CNN and things of that sort, to take

598
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: those techniques and to create live programming that people would

599
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: totally be immersed even if they had no background in

600
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: cosmology or neuroscience or astronomy or you know, personalized medicine

601
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: or you know, topics across the board. So now we're

602
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: changing gears and trying to find a new way of

603
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: doing digital programming that will inject that same kind of

604
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: creative focus to bring these intellectual ideas out to the public,

605
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: and you know, independent of the current crisis. We began

606
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: this already, so we feel like we're well equipped to

607
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: do so. We had I don't know if you saw it,

608
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: but last maye we had a special on PBS. It

609
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: was our first broadcast special. It was a live theatrical

610
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: exploration of Einstein's discovery of the general theory of relativity.

611
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: And you know, we seemed up with some of the

612
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 1: greatest artists in the live theatrical space, together with great

613
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 1: performances on PBS, to film in a manner a live

614
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: presentation that would work on a two dimensional screen and

615
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: through interesting visuals and through a powerful musical score, and

616
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: through taking the ideas of general relativity and making them

617
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: widely accessible, I think we've created a very different experience

618
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: of einsteience discovery. So that's the direction that we're head.

619
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: Not with that level of production for every event that

620
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: will put online, for sure, but that's our thinking to

621
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 1: inject a new level of creativity into online programming dealing

622
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: with scientific subjects. That's awesome because that's that's that's one

623
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: of the things I really love about the world Sciencestful

624
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 1: every years that you you know, you you bring in art,

625
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: you bring in music, and then in terms of the

626
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: all these great minds that come together to discuss it,

627
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: You're you're bringing in you know, scientist, biologist, physicists. You know,

628
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: you're bringing in occasionally philosophers or even the fel Gen

629
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: thrown into the mix to tackle these these you know,

630
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: at times just staggering questions about the cosmos and the

631
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: human condition. Exactly right, Yes, that's that's the philosophy, you know,

632
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 1: to to bring together great thinkers that done often talk

633
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: to each other, and to structure the conversation in a

634
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: way that the novice can feel that they're part of

635
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: the exploration. Now you you launched a web series on March,

636
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: I Believe Your Daily Equation, which is available via World

637
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: Science Festival dot com but also the World Science Festival

638
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 1: YouTube page. Can you discuss your inspiration for this series

639
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: and and just tell us how it's been going. Well,

640
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: it was just a lark off the top of the head.

641
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: We're having a conversation one day about you know. Typically

642
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: World Science Festival programs involve a lot of productions. It

643
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: takes a long time to create them. And I said, well,

644
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: now there's an opportunity to go to the other direction.

645
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: What if I just turned on my my webcam thing

646
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: and just each day talk about a new equation and

647
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: we're like, yeah, sure, why not go for it? So

648
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: so that's all it is. So there's literally no production.

649
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: I film it right here and each day I just

650
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: think about, Hey, what what equation would be kind of

651
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: fun to describe to somebody who likes the ideas of

652
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: science but math is not really their thing, but they

653
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 1: might get a kick out of seeing the actual symbols

654
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: that are behind the scenes and gaining a quick understanding

655
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: of what they are. So we started with equals MC squared.

656
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: How could you not? So I sort of explained that,

657
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 1: and then did a bunch of equations in relativity time

658
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: slowing down lengths being contracted for an object in motion,

659
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: and uh, then I've moved on to quantum mechanics. So

660
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 1: I've been sort of doing the very basic equations of

661
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: quantumic acts and I find it fun, and you know,

662
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: the audience that is sticking with me, You know, daily

663
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: equation is not exactly the title that may appeal to

664
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: the mass of public out there, but there are there

665
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 1: are people for whom that idea is a kick and

666
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: I think we're all just having a good time, and

667
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: it's a sense of a little sense of community, a

668
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 1: sense of a small group of folks who come together

669
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: each day just to put the news to the side,

670
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: put all the difficult stuff to the side, and just

671
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: think about these simple, beautiful equations that touch on things

672
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: that transcend all of us. Yeah, that's great. We we

673
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: do really need content like that right now. Um On,

674
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: on the other hand, do do you feel that the

675
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 1: world's current struggle with the pandemic do you think it's

676
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: had it's it's it has sharpened or is sharpening the

677
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: public's appreciation for science and the importance of science communication. Well,

678
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,439
Speaker 1: I'd like to say yes, but my experience is that

679
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: even in the face of great tragedy, when it passes,

680
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 1: people tend to revert to their more conventional ways of

681
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: thinking about things. And it is awful that we have leaders.

682
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: And this is the main thing. It's all of that

683
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: we leaders who for the past number of years have

684
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: been casting aspersions on science, detegrating scientists, and substituting opinion

685
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: for observation, fact, data, and analysis. That I hope will change.

686
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: But the easiest way to change that of course is

687
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: a change of leadership, because most leaders of the world

688
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: recognize the power that science provides us for figuring out

689
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: the right path forward on a variety of issues that

690
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: will determine our fate. And it's just tragic that there

691
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: are leaders who don't think that way. All right, Well,

692
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: the book is Until the End of Time. It's it's

693
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: out now, and yeah, I just want to just drive

694
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: home just how how wonderful this book is. We're just

695
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,439
Speaker 1: really thrilled to help, at least in some small way,

696
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: boost the signal on this one that you know, let

697
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: our listeners know that they should they should check it out.

698
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: It's just it's just really excellent. Thank you, Brian. Thanks

699
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: for taking time out of your data to chat with me.

700
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: This has been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Enjoyed

701
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: it all right, So there you have it. Thanks again

702
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: to Brian Green for dropping by the show to discuss

703
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: his new book, Until the End of Time, Mind Matter

704
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: in our Search for Meaning in an evolving universe. It's

705
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: it's a brand new book just came out here in

706
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: available I believe in pretty much all formats right now.

707
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: So if you want to listen to it, if you

708
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: want to read it, uh digitally or in a physical copy.

709
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: You should be able to get your hands on it. Yeah.

710
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this one and I think you will too. Yeah,

711
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: and keep an eye on World Science Festival because, like

712
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: Brian said, they're gonna be busting out some some online

713
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: content this year. So the same sort of great discussions

714
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: that they've had in previous years they're going to offer again,

715
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: but of course, due to our current circumstances, is going

716
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 1: to be in a slightly altered form. In the meantime,

717
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 1: if you would like to check out other episodes of

718
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find us wherever

719
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts and wherever that happens to be.

720
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: Just make sure that you rate your review and you

721
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: subscribe huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer

722
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in

723
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

724
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, just to say hi,

725
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: you can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow

726
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your minds production

727
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio,

728
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you

729
00:44:45,920 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows has found by a bottle

730
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: prote