1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: About two hundred yards from the White House, there's a 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: nondescript government building. Inside is a tiny agency that happens 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: to be one of the most powerful in the world. 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: It's been called the most important agency that no one 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: has ever heard of. 6 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: It's called OPHAK, the Office of Foreign Assets Control. It 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: also goes by another name, the Sanction's Office, and that 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: was John Smith, one of its previous directors. This office 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: influences how trillions of dollars move around the world. Right now, 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: the list of the US's economic sanctions runs over two 11 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: thousand pages. 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 2: There are dozens of sanctions programs Russia, Ukraine, regions like 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: Iran or Syria or North Korea, Cuba, so many others. 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,279 Speaker 2: So all of that is handled by these approximately three 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: hundred people. 16 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: Three hundred people. 17 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: The cost to fund the entire agency that is o 18 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: FAC is probably less than even a single tank or 19 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: aircraft would be. By many many factors. 20 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: It feels like every day the White House announces and 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: the media broadcasts news of fresh economic sanctions. The United 22 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: States is reinstating some sanctions on Venezuela, more sanctions against Russia. 23 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: Today, imposing financial sanctions on four Israeli nationals, for their estates. 24 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: You think that the federal government is pouring money into 25 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: the office that oversees them, but it's not, and that 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: has consequences for national and even global security and the 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: US government's ability to actually enforce sanctions from Bloomberg's Washington Bureau. 28 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: This is the Big Take DC podcast. I'm your host 29 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: Sleiah Mosen. During the Trump administration, when John Smith was 30 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: running OPHAK, I was desperate to talk to him, but 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: he knew better than to talk to me. I was 32 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: a reporter covering US Treasure Department really closely, and I 33 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,279 Speaker 1: was obsessed with everything his office was doing and finding 34 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: out the sanctions that they were working on before anyone else, 35 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: because knowing that can tell you a lot about how 36 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: the White House is thinking about foreign policy. 37 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: Sanctions have been called the alternative between words and war, 38 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: between military boots on the ground on the one hand, 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: or just mirrored diplomacy on the other. 40 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: Let me take a second to explain just how sanctions work. 41 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: We live in a world that runs on dollars literally, 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: so when the US wants to put pressure on a 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: foreign business, a government, or even a person, it uses 44 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: the dollar as leverage. 45 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: So, for example, Russia's war in Ukraine. O fax actions 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 2: and sanctions actions have frozen in the hundreds of billions 47 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: of dollars. 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: OFEK is the kind of DC office that tends to 49 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: pop up on the radar from time to time, but 50 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: only in significant moments. After nine to eleven, President George W. U. 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: Bush launched the global War on Terror with sanction. 52 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 3: Today we have launched a strike on the financial foundation 53 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 3: of the global terror network. 54 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: The tanks came later. 55 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 3: Coalition forces have begun striking selected targets of military importance. 56 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: Bush promised to follow the money that enabled terrorists to 57 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: take down the World Trade Center. He wasn't the first 58 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: to view sanctions as a foreign policy tool. The US 59 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: dabbled in them in the fallout from the American Revolution, 60 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: so they're literally in our country's DNA. But OPHAK was 61 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: born later. 62 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: It got its start in World War Two to help 63 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: implement and enforce the US response to Nazi Germany. 64 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: When I covered the Treasure Department, I worked really closely 65 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: with my colleague Nick Watdams. While I was looking at 66 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: sanctions from the economic angle, he was focused on national security. 67 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: He's now an editor at Bloomberg. 68 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 4: This is something that's become basically the go to tool 69 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 4: of first resort for the un US government as a 70 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 4: way to flex its muscle overseas, and OFIX sits at 71 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 4: the very center. 72 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: In the twenty years since nine to eleven, the number 73 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: of entities the US has sanctioned has skyrocketed by almost 74 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: one thousand percent, but the office that manages them O 75 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: FAC it's grown by just one hundred or so people. 76 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: At least that's as far as I can tell from 77 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: my sources, since Treasury doesn't disclose that publicly. It now 78 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: has some three hundred lawyers and financial investigators to comb 79 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: through troves of classified and public data, all in the 80 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: name of serving American foreign policy goals. But that increase 81 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: is hardly enough to keep up with the increasing reliance 82 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: on the office. 83 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 4: Seemingly every lawmaker now basically has a sanctions package in 84 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 4: their back pocket that they want to unveil against whoever 85 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 4: it might be. 86 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: Economic sanctions have become so important to the US government 87 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: that in twenty twenty two, right after Russia invaded Ukraine, 88 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: President Joe Biden talked about them very beginning of his 89 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: State of the Union address. 90 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 3: We're cutting off Russia's largest Bank to the international financial system, 91 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 3: preventing Russia's Central Bank from defending the Russian rubule, making 92 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 3: putin six hundred and thirty billion dollar warfund worthless. We're 93 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 3: choking Russia's access. 94 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: I remember that moment. I've covered sanctions for years, and 95 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: it's the first time I've heard a president talk about 96 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: them in such a high profile speech. 97 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 4: US sanctions are powerful because the US economy is so powerful. 98 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 4: The US financial system is the avenue through which basically 99 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 4: every banking transaction gets done. So if you then say, okay, 100 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 4: you a foreign entity or a foreign person, we're not 101 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 4: going to give you access to the US financial system, 102 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 4: that person is essentially banished financially. They can't get a 103 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 4: credit card, they can't get a bank account, they can't 104 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 4: pay their employees, they can't buy goods. So suddenly they 105 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 4: are essentially ostracized from the entire global financial system. 106 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: Consider the action America took against Iran to rein in 107 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: its nuclear ambitions. In twenty seventeen and eighteen, the Trump 108 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: administration levied more than nine hundred sanctions on Iran related targets. 109 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: In Iran's economy shrunk around five percent in each of 110 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: those years. But in order for OPAC sanctions to have 111 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: the economic bite that they're known for, someone needs to 112 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: make sure they're being enforced. 113 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 4: One thing I heard that OFAC really needs more money 114 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 4: for enforcement, like figuring out who's violating the sanctions and 115 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 4: bringing a case that would then help punish that entity 116 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 4: for not following the sanctions. 117 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: OPAC works with other parts of the government to enforce sanctions. 118 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: For example, in twenty fourteen, OPHEK was part of a 119 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: case against France's largest bank, accusing it of violating sanctions 120 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: on Sudan, Iran, and Cuba. The bank pleaded guilty and 121 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: paid almost nine billion dollars to settle the matter. But 122 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: John Smith told me that this tiny office can't manage 123 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: all of this on its own. 124 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 2: It's implementing dozens upon dozens of sanctions programs, including some 125 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: of the most important to our US national security and 126 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: foreign policy, and it simply doesn't have the resources that 127 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: it needs. 128 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: Up next, what's stopping the federal government from giving this 129 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: small but mighty office more to work with. John Smith 130 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: used to run OPHAK, the US government's sanctions office. 131 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: It is startling just how little money it takes to 132 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: run OPHAK. 133 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: As it is today, and he told me that OPHAC 134 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: doesn't just run on an incredibly tight budget, but it 135 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: actually turns a profit for the. 136 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: US OHFAC punches above its weight. Any dime that's given 137 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: to OPHAC will be magnified far beyond it's a money maker. 138 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: OPHAC has an enforced function where OPAC issues dozens of 139 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: enforcement actions. Those enforcement actions can come often in the 140 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars a 141 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: year that goes to the General Treasury. 142 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: Remember that French bank I mentioned, the one that had 143 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: to pay billions of dollars for violating OPAC sanctions. Almost 144 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: half of that money went to a federal fund, an 145 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: account controlled by Congress. OPHAC did not get that money. 146 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: That is different than many enforcement agencies where Congress's passed 147 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 2: laws that basically wants to encourage those enforcement agencies to 148 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: do more enforcement actions, and so Congress's pass laws that 149 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: allow certain enforcement agencies to keep the funds. 150 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: Basically, Congress hasn't given OPAC the resources to fully enforce 151 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: all of its sanctions programs, so instead it puts some 152 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: of that onus on the private sector. 153 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 4: It doesn't actually we enforce the sanctions a lot itself. 154 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 4: It relies on banks. 155 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: My colleague Nick told me that OFAK has tossed the 156 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: hot potato of enforcement over to businesses. One way it 157 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: does this is by leaving banks and other companies guessing. 158 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 4: So they will issue a very ambiguous rule saying certain 159 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 4: types of financial transactions with a Russian company or a 160 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 4: type of Russian company will be banned. And then when 161 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 4: you look at that rule you're a lawyer looking for 162 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 4: exact language about that rule, it's extremely ambiguous and you 163 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 4: have no idea what's going on. And so the response, 164 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 4: if you're a lawyer for Citibank, you just say, Okay, 165 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 4: we're not going to get anywhere near the Russian economy. 166 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: If there's one thing I've learned as a reporter at Bloomberg, 167 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: it'said investors in the business sector don't like uncertainty, especially 168 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: from the US government. But it seems like OFAC is 169 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: accidentally creating some of that. 170 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 4: I had all sorts of conversations with people who would say, 171 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 4: we would go to OPHAK for advice saying, hey, you 172 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 4: guys issued this rule, clarify this rule for us, tell 173 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 4: us what what this actually means. And the response would 174 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 4: take like six months to a year. They would blame 175 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 4: that on underfunding because OPAC only had like two lawyers 176 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 4: working on a certain file, or they didn't have nearly 177 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 4: enough compliance people, or half the compliance people were out 178 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 4: on vacation or on leave, or they were sick or whatever. 179 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 4: They could not get an answer. 180 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: John Smith believes there are real consequences to comically slow 181 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: policy responses and strapped budgets. 182 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 2: Every bit of time lost, every bit of use of 183 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 2: old technology means that were that much further behind those 184 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 2: that seek to evade sanctions so they can raise money 185 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: for terrorist attacks against US targets, against WMD related activities, 186 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 2: where bad actors are raising money for nuclear proliferation, against 187 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: counter narcotics efforts, where our sons and daughters and brothers 188 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: and sisters, mothers and fathers may be harmed. 189 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: All this brings up a really important question. Do sanctions 190 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: even work? 191 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: Nothing works one hundred percent, but sanctions have been demonstrated 192 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: to work, but they take time. So for example, there 193 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: was a tough economic sanctions program in World War two, 194 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: but it wasn't sanctions alone that won that war. It 195 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: was the US military might and our strategic sense, and 196 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: sanctions played a role. 197 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: We could do an entire episode on whether sanctions work 198 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: or not. It's really complicated and hard to measure. Take 199 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: the example of Russia. In the two years since its 200 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine, the US has placed more than three thousand, 201 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: five hundred sanctions on Russian individuals, businesses, and even aircraft. Now, 202 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: Russia's economy is on track to strength by eight percent 203 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: in the next two years, but Russian manufacturing has actually 204 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: grown to support the war effort, so the country's GDP 205 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: is still growing. Smith did point to examples of sanctions working. 206 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: Sanctions played a role in the apartheid crisis. We weren't 207 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: sending troops to South Africa, but we included a global 208 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 2: coalition that said to South Africa, we will no longer 209 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 2: deal with you if you continue your apartheid regime and 210 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 2: that jurisdiction and they finally changed. With respect to Iran, 211 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: Iran said it would never negotiate over its nuclear program 212 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 2: until it did and until it came to the negotiating 213 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: table and we reached an agreement. 214 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: So if sanctions really can pack a punch, and OPAC 215 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: is the main body responsible for them, why has its 216 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: budget remained so low for so long. Smith told me 217 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: that it comes down to Congress, which determines public spending. 218 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 2: You hear so much from members of Congress wanting more 219 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: sanctions on Iran, Venezuela, Russia, China, across the board. Sometimes 220 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: sanctions bills may be among the only bipartisan things that 221 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: are passed through Congress. But while Congress may want more sanctions, 222 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: Congress may not actually want to fund what they want. 223 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: In Congress, the Appropriations Committee decides what gets funding, but 224 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: different committees determine how it's spent. In the case of sanctions, 225 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 1: it's the Foreign Relations and Banking committees. 226 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel like there may be a disconnect between 227 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: those panels that are pushing for additional sanctions, mandated sanctions, 228 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: and those on the panels on the appropriations committees that 229 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 2: are actually deciding what funds to provide. 230 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: But John Smith is still holding out hope that someday 231 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: someone in a government might start paying attention to this 232 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: underdog of an office. 233 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: I'm waiting for the administration or the Congress that says, well, wait, 234 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: this agency is making money for the US government. Let's 235 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 2: see what more they can do if we give them 236 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: more than a drop of the buck. And increase. 237 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: To his mind, there's a lot at stake beyond the 238 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: walls of that nondescript office building right by the White House. 239 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 2: I think it's the question, should we be doing more 240 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: against human rights abuses and corruption around the world. Should 241 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: we be doing more to focus on terrorist activities and 242 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 2: support for terrorism around the world. The money sent to 243 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: OPHAC really has an outsized impact. 244 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Big Take DC podcast from 245 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. I'm Salaijah Mosen. This episode was produced by 246 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: Julia Press, Naomi Shaven, and Stacey Wong. It was fact 247 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: checked by Tiffany Choi. Alex Sugia and Blake Maples are 248 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: our mix engineers. Our story editors are Wendy Benjaminson and 249 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: Michael Shepherd. Nicole Beemster Bower is our executive producer. Sage 250 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: Bauman is our head of podcasts. If you like what 251 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: you heard, please be sure to subscribe, rate, and review 252 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: the show. It'll help other listeners find us. Thanks for 253 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: tuning in. I'll be back next week.