1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:25,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. It's one am and Louis deem Shuts, a jewelry seller, 2 00:00:26,196 --> 00:00:28,636 Speaker 1: is on his way home in his horse and cart. 3 00:00:29,476 --> 00:00:31,716 Speaker 1: He can barely see his way through the dark. As 4 00:00:31,756 --> 00:00:35,396 Speaker 1: he turns off the street, his pony shied at something 5 00:00:35,476 --> 00:00:37,596 Speaker 1: which was lying in a heap in a corner of 6 00:00:37,596 --> 00:00:41,796 Speaker 1: the yard. Newspaper reports say that deem Shuts assumed that 7 00:00:41,876 --> 00:00:44,916 Speaker 1: a passed out, drunk or homeless person was blocking the 8 00:00:44,916 --> 00:00:48,796 Speaker 1: way and scaring his horse. He looked more closely into 9 00:00:48,836 --> 00:00:52,356 Speaker 1: the matter and then found a woman lying on the ground, dead, 10 00:00:52,916 --> 00:00:55,916 Speaker 1: with her throat cut clean to the vertebrae. The body 11 00:00:55,956 --> 00:00:59,196 Speaker 1: was quite warm and blood was still flowing freely from 12 00:00:59,236 --> 00:01:05,116 Speaker 1: the throat. Elizabeth's Stride has died recently. It seems curiously, 13 00:01:05,596 --> 00:01:08,756 Speaker 1: her injuries differ from those of the rippers previous victims. 14 00:01:09,716 --> 00:01:13,836 Speaker 1: While Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman suffered abdominal mutilation as 15 00:01:13,876 --> 00:01:18,116 Speaker 1: well as slash wounds to their throats, Elizabeth was killed 16 00:01:18,156 --> 00:01:22,876 Speaker 1: by a single cut. Few expressed doubt, however, that Jack 17 00:01:22,956 --> 00:01:28,276 Speaker 1: the Ripper is to blame. Elizabeth's death prompts myriad eyewitness accounts. 18 00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:32,476 Speaker 1: Whitechapel locals report where Elizabeth went before she died, and 19 00:01:32,676 --> 00:01:36,036 Speaker 1: with whom they described the men she had met, and 20 00:01:36,116 --> 00:01:40,836 Speaker 1: a picture of a suspect emerges. Jack the Ripper now 21 00:01:40,996 --> 00:01:45,916 Speaker 1: has a face. These descriptions will shape the case for 22 00:01:46,196 --> 00:01:50,876 Speaker 1: decades to come. But did any of these eyewitnesses actually 23 00:01:51,036 --> 00:02:00,876 Speaker 1: see Elizabeth's stride that night, let alone her murderer. I'm 24 00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:05,956 Speaker 1: Hallie Rubinholt, you're listening to bad women. The Ripper retold 25 00:02:06,716 --> 00:02:09,716 Speaker 1: a series about the real lives of the been killed 26 00:02:09,756 --> 00:02:12,956 Speaker 1: by Jack the Ripper and how we got their stories 27 00:02:13,476 --> 00:02:24,916 Speaker 1: so wrong. One side, money plenty and friends too by 28 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:34,076 Speaker 1: the sky. Then fortune smild upon me. I now one 29 00:02:34,436 --> 00:02:50,196 Speaker 1: pass my dome. Aloney, I'm not with her, seems to 30 00:02:50,756 --> 00:03:06,356 Speaker 1: larn me. I'm come for me for rockcount Elizabeth strides 31 00:03:06,436 --> 00:03:09,836 Speaker 1: early life took her from Brual Sweden, were prisoned like 32 00:03:10,036 --> 00:03:15,156 Speaker 1: syphilis hospital. She came to London, married a carpenter and 33 00:03:15,276 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 1: ran two coffee houses, both of which failed and closed. 34 00:03:19,756 --> 00:03:24,156 Speaker 1: Then she became a fraudster, hoodwinking Londoners with tales of 35 00:03:24,276 --> 00:03:29,196 Speaker 1: family tragedy. We left her in September eighteen eighty eight. 36 00:03:30,636 --> 00:03:34,876 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's final day began like any other. She cleaned rooms 37 00:03:34,916 --> 00:03:38,716 Speaker 1: at a Whitechapel lodging house, earning a meager sixpence wage 38 00:03:38,996 --> 00:03:42,196 Speaker 1: about ten dollars today, and then she went to the 39 00:03:42,236 --> 00:03:47,236 Speaker 1: pub for a drink. The lodging house manager noted that 40 00:03:47,276 --> 00:03:51,276 Speaker 1: Elizabeth wore neither a coat nor a bonnet, a detail 41 00:03:51,316 --> 00:03:54,236 Speaker 1: that some have pounced upon as proof that she'd returned 42 00:03:54,236 --> 00:03:57,116 Speaker 1: to selling sex, as she had done briefly in her 43 00:03:57,196 --> 00:04:01,196 Speaker 1: native Sweden. Women out soliciting which surely tried to show 44 00:04:01,196 --> 00:04:04,836 Speaker 1: off their faces and bodies as much as possible. Of course, 45 00:04:04,956 --> 00:04:07,516 Speaker 1: wearing a hat was equally argued to be the sign 46 00:04:07,556 --> 00:04:11,276 Speaker 1: of a prostitute. Remember the conclusions drawn about Polly Nichols 47 00:04:11,276 --> 00:04:16,676 Speaker 1: in her jolly bonnet. If Elizabeth Stride was still selling sex, 48 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:20,396 Speaker 1: she didn't have much lucks listing clients. She walked back 49 00:04:20,396 --> 00:04:23,876 Speaker 1: to her lodging house alone at around six thirty pm. 50 00:04:25,516 --> 00:04:27,956 Speaker 1: Only a handful of facts are known about what she 51 00:04:28,036 --> 00:04:31,956 Speaker 1: did in the hours before her death. She ate some potatoes, 52 00:04:31,996 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 1: bread and cheese. She likely had a few drinks as well. 53 00:04:36,316 --> 00:04:39,436 Speaker 1: At some stage in the evening she acquired a corsage, 54 00:04:39,916 --> 00:04:43,636 Speaker 1: a single red rose tied together with some maidenhair fern, 55 00:04:43,996 --> 00:04:47,596 Speaker 1: which she attached to the bodice of her dress. Elizabeth 56 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 1: asked a friend to mind a length of green velvet 57 00:04:50,316 --> 00:04:52,756 Speaker 1: she had in her possession. She was about to go 58 00:04:52,836 --> 00:04:55,716 Speaker 1: out for several hours, and perhaps she wanted to make 59 00:04:55,756 --> 00:04:59,196 Speaker 1: sure that no one stole and pond it before she 60 00:04:59,236 --> 00:05:02,276 Speaker 1: stepped out the door again. She sought to smarten herself up, 61 00:05:02,476 --> 00:05:05,436 Speaker 1: borrowing a brush to clean the muck from her only 62 00:05:05,476 --> 00:05:10,076 Speaker 1: set of clothes. Just as the newspaper reports and Polly 63 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 1: Nichols and Annie Chapman's last movements are riddled with contradictions 64 00:05:13,836 --> 00:05:18,556 Speaker 1: and inconsistencies, the same is true for Elizabeth. Some say 65 00:05:18,636 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 1: she had paid for her bed at the lodging house 66 00:05:20,636 --> 00:05:24,716 Speaker 1: that night in advance with that sixpence she'd earned. Others 67 00:05:24,756 --> 00:05:28,836 Speaker 1: state the opposite. If she had indeed already paid, it 68 00:05:28,876 --> 00:05:31,276 Speaker 1: would suggest that her intention was to return to the 69 00:05:31,316 --> 00:05:34,236 Speaker 1: lodging house later that evening, but where she planned to 70 00:05:34,276 --> 00:05:38,756 Speaker 1: go when she stepped out that night is unknown. Elizabeth 71 00:05:38,756 --> 00:05:41,956 Speaker 1: avoided telling her neighbors about her current or past life. 72 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:47,276 Speaker 1: No one knew her typical habits, regular companions, or usual haunts. 73 00:05:48,076 --> 00:05:51,156 Speaker 1: Perhaps she went out to socialize or to meet someone. 74 00:05:51,996 --> 00:05:54,476 Speaker 1: She may have left her lodging house with the intention 75 00:05:54,556 --> 00:05:58,556 Speaker 1: of soliciting, or of finding a long term partner, or both. 76 00:05:59,756 --> 00:06:07,116 Speaker 1: Whatever Elizabeth's planned that night, she never returned. According to 77 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:10,636 Speaker 1: the coverage of the autopsy, there was a clear cut 78 00:06:10,636 --> 00:06:13,796 Speaker 1: incision on the neck. It was six inches in length 79 00:06:14,076 --> 00:06:16,916 Speaker 1: and commenced two and a half inches in a straight 80 00:06:16,956 --> 00:06:20,996 Speaker 1: line below the angle of the jaw. The obvious inference, 81 00:06:21,236 --> 00:06:24,916 Speaker 1: said one newspaper, was that this was the work of 82 00:06:25,036 --> 00:06:29,396 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper. The thing is, the darts just don't 83 00:06:29,476 --> 00:06:33,756 Speaker 1: join up that easily. Elizabeth was killed with a single cut, 84 00:06:33,996 --> 00:06:38,556 Speaker 1: and her body wasn't otherwise mutilated. Her injuries were therefore 85 00:06:38,796 --> 00:06:42,756 Speaker 1: quite unlike those of Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman. She 86 00:06:42,876 --> 00:06:46,236 Speaker 1: was also killed near a busy men's club, whereas Polly 87 00:06:46,356 --> 00:06:51,196 Speaker 1: and Annie were murdered in quiet places with fewer passers by. 88 00:06:52,196 --> 00:06:54,996 Speaker 1: I have strong doubts about whether Elizabeth Stride was a 89 00:06:55,076 --> 00:06:58,956 Speaker 1: victim of the Ripper at all. The traditional narrative claims 90 00:06:58,956 --> 00:07:01,556 Speaker 1: that the killer was disturbed before he could carry out 91 00:07:01,636 --> 00:07:05,836 Speaker 1: his trademark butchery. It further maintains that, with his blood 92 00:07:05,876 --> 00:07:10,356 Speaker 1: lust unsated, he dashed across Whitechapel in search of another 93 00:07:10,436 --> 00:07:14,316 Speaker 1: woman to murder. That very same night, but that's a 94 00:07:14,356 --> 00:07:18,276 Speaker 1: story for another episode. This all strikes me as a 95 00:07:18,276 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 1: bit far fetched. Elizabeth could have fallen prey to some 96 00:07:21,956 --> 00:07:25,636 Speaker 1: other unknown attacker, a victim of one of her fraudulent tricks. 97 00:07:25,716 --> 00:07:29,316 Speaker 1: Perhaps it's even possible that she was killed by her partner, 98 00:07:29,436 --> 00:07:33,756 Speaker 1: Michael Kidney, who was known to be physically abusive. Nevertheless, 99 00:07:33,996 --> 00:07:38,396 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Stride is still counted among the five victims, perhaps 100 00:07:38,436 --> 00:07:41,476 Speaker 1: because her death adds so much color to the Ripper myth. 101 00:07:42,316 --> 00:07:45,396 Speaker 1: It was only with Elizabeth Stride's death that I witnesses 102 00:07:45,396 --> 00:07:49,796 Speaker 1: began to come forward to report actual sightings of a suspect. 103 00:07:52,716 --> 00:07:56,156 Speaker 1: For example, a laborer saw a man and a woman 104 00:07:56,236 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 1: in close conference just before midnight on the street where 105 00:07:59,956 --> 00:08:04,436 Speaker 1: Elizabeth was killed. He believed that woman was Elizabeth's Stride. 106 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:07,676 Speaker 1: I was standing at my door, and what attracted my 107 00:08:07,716 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 1: attention first was standing there sometime and he was kissing her. 108 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:13,916 Speaker 1: I heard the man say to the deceased, you would 109 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:17,476 Speaker 1: say anything but your prayers. He was mild speaking and 110 00:08:17,516 --> 00:08:21,156 Speaker 1: appeared to be an educated man. Not long after that, 111 00:08:21,676 --> 00:08:25,596 Speaker 1: Israel Schwartz, who gave a statement through an interpreter, noticed 112 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:28,036 Speaker 1: a man and a woman having a disagreement on the 113 00:08:28,076 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 1: same street. Their argument became increasingly heated. The woman was 114 00:08:36,596 --> 00:08:42,276 Speaker 1: thrown to the ground, letting out a scream. Schwartz was 115 00:08:42,316 --> 00:08:45,236 Speaker 1: then startled by a second man who had been standing 116 00:08:45,236 --> 00:08:49,196 Speaker 1: in the shadows. Feeling menaced by this figure and unwilling 117 00:08:49,236 --> 00:08:52,556 Speaker 1: to intervene in some kind of domestic dispute, he took 118 00:08:52,596 --> 00:08:56,676 Speaker 1: to his heels and fled. Other neighbors chimed in two. 119 00:08:57,076 --> 00:08:59,916 Speaker 1: One woman saw a young man with a black, shiny 120 00:08:59,956 --> 00:09:03,876 Speaker 1: bag who walked very fast, but had it noticed anything 121 00:09:03,916 --> 00:09:07,916 Speaker 1: else unusual. That night, and in the daily news, a 122 00:09:07,916 --> 00:09:13,076 Speaker 1: man named Albert asked recalled a conversation with a suspicious stranger. 123 00:09:13,676 --> 00:09:16,316 Speaker 1: He asked me questions which now appeared to me to 124 00:09:16,356 --> 00:09:19,556 Speaker 1: have some bearing upon the recent murders. He wanted to 125 00:09:19,596 --> 00:09:22,116 Speaker 1: know whether I knew what sort of loose women use 126 00:09:22,196 --> 00:09:25,036 Speaker 1: the public bar at their house, when they usually left 127 00:09:25,076 --> 00:09:27,436 Speaker 1: the street outside, and where they were in the abbit 128 00:09:27,476 --> 00:09:30,476 Speaker 1: of going. He asked further questions, and from his manner, 129 00:09:30,516 --> 00:09:33,396 Speaker 1: seemed up to no good purpose. He appeared to be 130 00:09:33,516 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 1: a shabby, genteel sort of man, and was dressed in 131 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:40,476 Speaker 1: black clothes. He wore a black felt hat and carried 132 00:09:40,476 --> 00:09:44,956 Speaker 1: a black bag. Such descriptions are the bedrock of most 133 00:09:45,076 --> 00:09:49,076 Speaker 1: Ripper theories. The trouble is none of these eyewitness statements 134 00:09:49,356 --> 00:09:53,516 Speaker 1: have ever been submitted to real scrutiny. Under close examination, 135 00:09:53,996 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 1: they don't hold up well at all. The Ripper he 136 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:07,116 Speaker 1: told will be back In a moment, from the cacophony 137 00:10:07,156 --> 00:10:11,876 Speaker 1: of witnesses, a portrait of Elizabeth Stride's killer began to 138 00:10:11,916 --> 00:10:15,756 Speaker 1: take shape. The following description has been circulated of a 139 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:17,716 Speaker 1: man said to have been seen in the company of 140 00:10:17,716 --> 00:10:22,116 Speaker 1: the deceased during Saturday, age twenty eight slight height, five 141 00:10:22,116 --> 00:10:26,796 Speaker 1: feet nine inches, complexion dark, no whiskers, black diagonal coat, 142 00:10:27,116 --> 00:10:30,676 Speaker 1: hard felt hat collar. It's not much to go on 143 00:10:31,076 --> 00:10:34,196 Speaker 1: an average size Victorian man who was neither very old 144 00:10:34,396 --> 00:10:39,636 Speaker 1: nor very young in average Victorian dress. Still, over the years, 145 00:10:39,676 --> 00:10:43,156 Speaker 1: these statements, no matter how vague, have crystallized into the 146 00:10:43,196 --> 00:10:47,676 Speaker 1: supposed facts of the case. Every Ripper book or documentary 147 00:10:47,676 --> 00:10:52,836 Speaker 1: you've seen will build on these shaky foundations. There was 148 00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:57,036 Speaker 1: at least one, maybe two copycats involved in these five murders. 149 00:10:57,436 --> 00:11:00,916 Speaker 1: Take Jeff Mudget, a descendant of Herman Mudget, who was 150 00:11:00,956 --> 00:11:04,676 Speaker 1: also known as H. H. Holmes. That's pretty much where 151 00:11:04,876 --> 00:11:08,836 Speaker 1: my theory has gone okay, and I know a lot 152 00:11:08,836 --> 00:11:12,956 Speaker 1: of people disagree with that. A notorious American swindler and 153 00:11:13,156 --> 00:11:16,596 Speaker 1: serial killer Holmes trapped his victims and what became known 154 00:11:16,636 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 1: as his murder Castle, a Chicago house he built to 155 00:11:21,236 --> 00:11:26,476 Speaker 1: include soundproof chambers and shoots to move body parts for disposal. 156 00:11:27,236 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 1: I put some research into this evil man and became 157 00:11:32,796 --> 00:11:37,476 Speaker 1: somewhat obsessed with knowing the true story about him. Holmes 158 00:11:37,596 --> 00:11:41,876 Speaker 1: lived and killed in Chicago, but Jeff is convinced that 159 00:11:41,956 --> 00:11:46,476 Speaker 1: he also crossed the Atlantic to satisfy his murderous impulses, 160 00:11:47,116 --> 00:11:50,676 Speaker 1: that he was also shack the Ripper. The more I 161 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:54,916 Speaker 1: dug in, the more the angle started lessoning, and the 162 00:11:55,116 --> 00:11:59,596 Speaker 1: chances became greater and greater. Jeff has gathered evidence about 163 00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:02,876 Speaker 1: handwriting and passenger lists. We've done quite a bit of 164 00:12:03,076 --> 00:12:07,356 Speaker 1: research into passenger lists on liners from New York to 165 00:12:07,476 --> 00:12:12,116 Speaker 1: London Southampton, and we found some of the aliases that 166 00:12:12,276 --> 00:12:16,316 Speaker 1: Holmes used. He also thinks physical descriptions link Holmes and 167 00:12:16,356 --> 00:12:19,316 Speaker 1: the man scene with Elizabeth Stride. Both were of average 168 00:12:19,356 --> 00:12:22,636 Speaker 1: height and mustachioed, as was the fashion of the day. 169 00:12:23,196 --> 00:12:26,476 Speaker 1: Jeff actually thinks that Holmes didn't kill all the women. 170 00:12:26,836 --> 00:12:29,756 Speaker 1: His theory is elaborate and seems to suggest that H. H. 171 00:12:29,876 --> 00:12:32,596 Speaker 1: Holmes was a copycat killer drawn to London after the 172 00:12:32,676 --> 00:12:36,996 Speaker 1: earlier murders. He gave a ted X talk where he 173 00:12:37,036 --> 00:12:41,076 Speaker 1: presented his evidence, making much of a computer image, a 174 00:12:41,196 --> 00:12:44,516 Speaker 1: facial composite based on the statements of eye witnesses that 175 00:12:44,636 --> 00:12:48,476 Speaker 1: was produced by Scotland yard analysts for yet another TV show. 176 00:12:48,756 --> 00:12:51,076 Speaker 1: Noticed the bridge of the nose, Notice the shape of 177 00:12:51,116 --> 00:12:54,796 Speaker 1: the eyes, Notice the years, Notice the cheek bons. He 178 00:12:54,876 --> 00:12:58,316 Speaker 1: compares it to a photo of HH Holmes. Just take 179 00:12:58,356 --> 00:13:01,036 Speaker 1: a second to look once again the nose Holmes had 180 00:13:01,036 --> 00:13:04,676 Speaker 1: a broken nose, the eyes, the years, and again the 181 00:13:04,756 --> 00:13:08,676 Speaker 1: cheek bons. Jeff, who incidentally is a lawyer by trade, 182 00:13:08,796 --> 00:13:13,436 Speaker 1: show both of these images to two seasoned investigators, one 183 00:13:13,556 --> 00:13:17,556 Speaker 1: from the FBI. Both said the comparison was the closest 184 00:13:17,596 --> 00:13:20,916 Speaker 1: they'd ever seen in their entire careers. Jeff calls all 185 00:13:21,036 --> 00:13:25,116 Speaker 1: this a remarkable piece of evidence, although many of the 186 00:13:25,156 --> 00:13:28,196 Speaker 1: people that criticized me for using that thought it looked 187 00:13:28,236 --> 00:13:32,196 Speaker 1: more like Freddie Mercury than it did H. Holmes. Jeff's 188 00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:35,556 Speaker 1: theory is frankly baffling, and I had a bit of 189 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:39,316 Speaker 1: trouble following the logic. During our conversation, it seemed to 190 00:13:39,356 --> 00:13:43,516 Speaker 1: contain gaping holes and great leaps of imagination. I was 191 00:13:43,556 --> 00:13:47,316 Speaker 1: surprised that someone with legal training would entertain this story 192 00:13:47,356 --> 00:13:51,916 Speaker 1: for a second. Would I be confident proving that Holmes 193 00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 1: was Jack the Ripper and a court of log beyond 194 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt. Now now, off the back of his 195 00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:02,396 Speaker 1: ted X talk, Jeff made a TV show, American Ripper, 196 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:06,836 Speaker 1: where he teamed up with former CIA agent Amaryllis Fox 197 00:14:07,196 --> 00:14:09,396 Speaker 1: in an effort to prove once and for all that 198 00:14:09,476 --> 00:14:13,836 Speaker 1: his great great grandfather was Jack the Ripper. I've talked 199 00:14:13,836 --> 00:14:17,636 Speaker 1: to experts and historians and combed through libraries and archives 200 00:14:17,676 --> 00:14:21,396 Speaker 1: searching for the truth, and I believe that by assuming 201 00:14:21,436 --> 00:14:24,556 Speaker 1: the identity of Jack the Ripper, HH Holmes pulled off 202 00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:29,316 Speaker 1: one of the greatest cons of all time. That show 203 00:14:29,356 --> 00:14:32,596 Speaker 1: has been seen all over the world. In fact, it 204 00:14:32,676 --> 00:14:36,076 Speaker 1: was on British TV again the very day I interviewed him. 205 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:40,556 Speaker 1: The Ripper's final victim is played like a piece of meat. 206 00:14:41,436 --> 00:14:44,716 Speaker 1: It makes me wonder how Holmes was conducting dissections and 207 00:14:44,756 --> 00:14:47,836 Speaker 1: the basement of the Murder Castle in the years following 208 00:14:47,876 --> 00:14:51,636 Speaker 1: The Ripper killings are you aware of any? Viewers are 209 00:14:51,676 --> 00:14:55,276 Speaker 1: served up theories like this all the time. The same 210 00:14:55,356 --> 00:14:59,556 Speaker 1: cast of former detectives, handwritting experts and police artists are 211 00:14:59,636 --> 00:15:02,916 Speaker 1: wheeled out to explain the evidence and solve the crime. 212 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:07,156 Speaker 1: The issue here is that not all evidence is equal. 213 00:15:07,476 --> 00:15:10,996 Speaker 1: It has to be scrutinized and weighed up. I'd argue 214 00:15:11,076 --> 00:15:14,196 Speaker 1: that little cited as evidence in the Ripper case would 215 00:15:14,196 --> 00:15:17,516 Speaker 1: actually stand up in court. The idea behind the due 216 00:15:17,516 --> 00:15:20,396 Speaker 1: process is that obviously we have these safeguards in place 217 00:15:20,476 --> 00:15:23,236 Speaker 1: that ultimately those who should be convicted or convicted and 218 00:15:23,316 --> 00:15:26,476 Speaker 1: where there's doubt they're acquitted. Ed Connell knows all about 219 00:15:26,516 --> 00:15:29,356 Speaker 1: the problems that evidence can pose. He's a judge in 220 00:15:29,396 --> 00:15:32,916 Speaker 1: the UK, presiding over criminal cases, and he previously spent 221 00:15:32,996 --> 00:15:37,116 Speaker 1: twenty three years as a trial lawyer. Eyewitness statements, he says, 222 00:15:37,476 --> 00:15:42,436 Speaker 1: are notoriously thorny. Visual identification has been one of the 223 00:15:42,516 --> 00:15:45,036 Speaker 1: real problems that the criminal justice system has faced. It's 224 00:15:45,036 --> 00:15:49,316 Speaker 1: one of the main causes of injustice. In eighteen ninety five, 225 00:15:49,436 --> 00:15:52,796 Speaker 1: a man named Adolf Beck was accused of swindling women 226 00:15:52,836 --> 00:15:56,556 Speaker 1: in London. He'd approached them on the street, claiming to 227 00:15:56,596 --> 00:16:00,156 Speaker 1: be an aristocrat and promising to whisk them away to 228 00:16:00,316 --> 00:16:04,396 Speaker 1: his luxury yacht and lavish them with jewelry. In fact, 229 00:16:04,676 --> 00:16:07,196 Speaker 1: why not give me that old ring so I can 230 00:16:07,196 --> 00:16:09,836 Speaker 1: have a new one made in exactly the right size 231 00:16:09,876 --> 00:16:13,276 Speaker 1: for you. Beck was spotted leaving home by one of 232 00:16:13,276 --> 00:16:16,956 Speaker 1: the women. That's him a rest back man. Several victims 233 00:16:16,956 --> 00:16:20,276 Speaker 1: and other eyewitnesses also identified him as the con man, 234 00:16:20,476 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 1: and he was sent to prison. The problem was Beck 235 00:16:26,156 --> 00:16:28,796 Speaker 1: was living in South America when these crimes took place. 236 00:16:29,476 --> 00:16:32,196 Speaker 1: It was only years later that the real culprit was 237 00:16:32,236 --> 00:16:35,956 Speaker 1: caught and Beck was freed. The case prompted the creation 238 00:16:36,036 --> 00:16:40,596 Speaker 1: of the UK's Court of Appeal. Today, we issue guidelines 239 00:16:40,636 --> 00:16:44,516 Speaker 1: about witness testimony precisely to avoid the kind of issues 240 00:16:44,556 --> 00:16:47,556 Speaker 1: that consigned ad Off Beck to years in prison for 241 00:16:47,636 --> 00:16:51,196 Speaker 1: someone else's crimes. A judge will say to the jury 242 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:54,756 Speaker 1: members of jury, they have in the past being miscarriager's justice. 243 00:16:54,836 --> 00:16:57,636 Speaker 1: We have to be very careful. People who appeared to 244 00:16:57,756 --> 00:17:01,436 Speaker 1: be compelling can be wrong. Honest people can be wrong. 245 00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:04,756 Speaker 1: Lots of honest people can be wrong. Mistakes are made, 246 00:17:05,276 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 1: juries are often worn. To accept eyewitness statements with caution. 247 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:11,916 Speaker 1: What distance were they viewing the person from, was there 248 00:17:11,956 --> 00:17:14,556 Speaker 1: anything in their way? What was the weather like, what 249 00:17:14,596 --> 00:17:17,196 Speaker 1: was the lighting like? How long has there been from 250 00:17:17,276 --> 00:17:19,516 Speaker 1: when they saw the persons or when they perhaps subsequently 251 00:17:19,516 --> 00:17:23,076 Speaker 1: identified them. Ed's examined some of the witness statements in 252 00:17:23,116 --> 00:17:27,996 Speaker 1: elizabeth Strides case, and he says they contain inherent weaknesses, 253 00:17:28,316 --> 00:17:32,036 Speaker 1: so it's difficult to really draw any conclusions from what 254 00:17:32,036 --> 00:17:34,316 Speaker 1: these people are said. It's difficult to see how anybody 255 00:17:34,516 --> 00:17:38,676 Speaker 1: could go away having read these statements and be sure 256 00:17:38,996 --> 00:17:41,916 Speaker 1: of what's contained within them. One should take great care 257 00:17:42,036 --> 00:17:44,876 Speaker 1: and caution before being able to say, yes, actually, any 258 00:17:44,876 --> 00:17:48,996 Speaker 1: of this stuff is fact. We can rely upon the 259 00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:52,596 Speaker 1: ripper were told we'll be back in just a moment. 260 00:17:59,396 --> 00:18:02,316 Speaker 1: Looking at, for example, the statement of William Marshall, it's 261 00:18:02,316 --> 00:18:05,956 Speaker 1: a very limited use to you at all. William Marshall 262 00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 1: was a laborer. He believed he saw Elizabeth's stride the 263 00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:13,756 Speaker 1: night she died, in quiet discussion with a man. Marshall 264 00:18:13,836 --> 00:18:16,516 Speaker 1: thought he heard the man with Elizabeth tell her you 265 00:18:16,556 --> 00:18:20,636 Speaker 1: would say anything but your prayers. Marshall later went to 266 00:18:20,676 --> 00:18:25,076 Speaker 1: identify Elizabeth's body and confirmed that this was indeed the 267 00:18:25,116 --> 00:18:27,956 Speaker 1: same woman he had seen on the Street, he gave 268 00:18:27,996 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 1: evidence at the coroner's inquest. I recognize it as that 269 00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:33,996 Speaker 1: of a woman I saw on Saturday evening, about three 270 00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:36,596 Speaker 1: doors off from where I'm living in Berni Street. I 271 00:18:36,676 --> 00:18:39,636 Speaker 1: recognize her both by her face and dress, while she 272 00:18:39,756 --> 00:18:45,156 Speaker 1: wearing a flower when you saw her. No, it is 273 00:18:45,196 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 1: wary of Marshall's testimony. Marshall didn't actually know Elizabeth, and 274 00:18:50,036 --> 00:18:52,276 Speaker 1: how much real attention would he have paid to a 275 00:18:52,276 --> 00:18:55,476 Speaker 1: couple he just saw on the street, Probably not enough 276 00:18:55,676 --> 00:18:58,036 Speaker 1: for a detailed picture of them to lodge in his memory. 277 00:18:58,596 --> 00:19:02,036 Speaker 1: He gives a very limited description as to what she 278 00:19:02,196 --> 00:19:06,036 Speaker 1: was wearing. He says black jacket and black skirt, which 279 00:19:06,036 --> 00:19:08,756 Speaker 1: I imagine was not particularly unique. And the other piece 280 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:10,916 Speaker 1: of him for mation is that he says that she 281 00:19:10,996 --> 00:19:13,596 Speaker 1: was wearing a small black crape bonnet, which again I 282 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 1: suspect is probably not a particularly distinguishing feature. Curiously, Marshall 283 00:19:17,916 --> 00:19:21,356 Speaker 1: didn't see the corsage that Elizabeth had attached to her dress. 284 00:19:21,996 --> 00:19:25,036 Speaker 1: He told the coroner that the woman he saw wasn't 285 00:19:25,076 --> 00:19:28,676 Speaker 1: wearing a flower. On the other hand, a police inspector 286 00:19:28,716 --> 00:19:31,996 Speaker 1: who took a description of Elizabeth at the Moutree noted 287 00:19:32,196 --> 00:19:35,676 Speaker 1: that She had a red rose tied with maidenhair fern 288 00:19:36,036 --> 00:19:39,116 Speaker 1: fastened to her clothing. Again a sort of feature that 289 00:19:39,156 --> 00:19:42,836 Speaker 1: an observant witness who could be deemed reliable would have spotted. 290 00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:46,996 Speaker 1: Even if this woman was Elizabeth's stride, Marshall couldn't have 291 00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:49,636 Speaker 1: had a great view of the pair. For one thing, 292 00:19:49,876 --> 00:19:53,116 Speaker 1: he was watching them from a distance. Can you describe 293 00:19:53,196 --> 00:19:56,316 Speaker 1: the man? There was no lamp near, and I did 294 00:19:56,316 --> 00:19:58,196 Speaker 1: not see the face of the man she was talking to. 295 00:19:58,636 --> 00:20:01,236 Speaker 1: He had on a small black coat and dark trousers. 296 00:20:01,676 --> 00:20:04,356 Speaker 1: Seemed to be a middle aged man. What sort of 297 00:20:04,476 --> 00:20:07,236 Speaker 1: cap was he wearing? A round cap with a sort 298 00:20:07,276 --> 00:20:10,076 Speaker 1: of peak to it, something like what a sailor would wear. 299 00:20:11,236 --> 00:20:14,716 Speaker 1: It's happening late at night, so it's dark. He makes 300 00:20:14,756 --> 00:20:17,796 Speaker 1: reference to there being a light, but of course they 301 00:20:17,796 --> 00:20:19,876 Speaker 1: would have been passing under the light. He describes that 302 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:22,036 Speaker 1: the male person had a brimmed cap on, so that 303 00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:25,956 Speaker 1: would have cast the face into darkness. What height was he? 304 00:20:26,596 --> 00:20:29,676 Speaker 1: About five ft six inches and he was rather stout. 305 00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:32,476 Speaker 1: He was decently dressed, and I should say he worked 306 00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 1: at some light business and had more the appearance of 307 00:20:34,996 --> 00:20:39,796 Speaker 1: a clerk than anything else. He gives a description of 308 00:20:39,916 --> 00:20:44,996 Speaker 1: a man wearing a small black coat, dark trousers. Again 309 00:20:45,116 --> 00:20:47,676 Speaker 1: not unique. I wouldn't have thought for the time, middle 310 00:20:47,676 --> 00:20:51,396 Speaker 1: aged and about five foot six and rather stout. It's 311 00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:54,676 Speaker 1: not particularly sort of distinctive description that would only match 312 00:20:54,716 --> 00:20:57,396 Speaker 1: maybe two or three people. It mats hundreds of thousands 313 00:20:57,436 --> 00:21:00,196 Speaker 1: of people at that time. So again that sort of 314 00:21:00,436 --> 00:21:03,156 Speaker 1: cast some doubt over whether or not he could be 315 00:21:03,196 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 1: relied upon his identification witness. But more important than that, 316 00:21:06,316 --> 00:21:09,916 Speaker 1: there is actually no visual identification of the person because 317 00:21:09,916 --> 00:21:12,676 Speaker 1: he doesn't see the face. And then the coroner asked 318 00:21:12,676 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 1: a question latron or did he have any whiskers? And 319 00:21:15,076 --> 00:21:16,956 Speaker 1: his response was born from what I saw of his face. 320 00:21:16,996 --> 00:21:19,116 Speaker 1: I don't think he did. But he's already told them 321 00:21:19,156 --> 00:21:22,396 Speaker 1: that he hadn't seen the face. So his identification evidence 322 00:21:22,556 --> 00:21:25,436 Speaker 1: is just really, it seemed to me inherently weak. Here 323 00:21:26,116 --> 00:21:28,916 Speaker 1: Edie is convinced that William Marshall wouldn't be able to 324 00:21:28,956 --> 00:21:32,276 Speaker 1: pick this suspect out of a lineup. A modern standard 325 00:21:32,316 --> 00:21:37,196 Speaker 1: for reliable identification by witnesses. The whole idea of identification procedures. 326 00:21:37,236 --> 00:21:41,316 Speaker 1: You arrange eleven stooges that look very similar facially to 327 00:21:41,356 --> 00:21:43,796 Speaker 1: the individual and then you hope that the witness then 328 00:21:43,836 --> 00:21:46,756 Speaker 1: picks the person out. But this witness, mister Marshall, seems 329 00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:48,756 Speaker 1: wouldn't have even been able to do that at all. 330 00:21:49,076 --> 00:21:53,596 Speaker 1: So you're really left with a broad description of types 331 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:57,156 Speaker 1: of clothing of very limited value. Should we also ask 332 00:21:57,236 --> 00:22:01,276 Speaker 1: questions of this witness such as why was he awake 333 00:22:01,316 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 1: at that time of night? What was he doing? Was 334 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:06,236 Speaker 1: he drinking? Perhaps? Absolutely? I mean that's one of the 335 00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:09,676 Speaker 1: things you often would ask a witness when they're identified 336 00:22:09,716 --> 00:22:11,916 Speaker 1: someone involved perhaps in a pub fight, for example, at 337 00:22:11,916 --> 00:22:14,076 Speaker 1: eleven o'clock at night, because it's a very good chance 338 00:22:14,076 --> 00:22:17,556 Speaker 1: that they will have been drinking. It's also worth remembering 339 00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:21,116 Speaker 1: where the abundance of eyewitness accounts on Elizabeth Strides case 340 00:22:21,196 --> 00:22:24,756 Speaker 1: came from. In the first place. Panic was gripping Whitechapel. 341 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:29,356 Speaker 1: These murders were all over the newspapers. It's unsurprising that 342 00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:30,996 Speaker 1: people would then come for and say, oh, yeah, no, 343 00:22:31,076 --> 00:22:32,676 Speaker 1: I think you know, I might have seen that night 344 00:22:32,716 --> 00:22:34,836 Speaker 1: as well. And of course they then want to believe 345 00:22:34,876 --> 00:22:37,036 Speaker 1: that they're right about it, and no one's going to 346 00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:38,556 Speaker 1: then go and look at the body and say, oh no, 347 00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:41,716 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm wrong. I've made a terrible mistake. They're 348 00:22:41,716 --> 00:22:43,716 Speaker 1: going to want to insist that they've got it all right. 349 00:22:44,156 --> 00:22:47,116 Speaker 1: Marshall's evidence wouldn't clear the bar for reliability that we 350 00:22:47,236 --> 00:22:50,996 Speaker 1: said today. His is just one example of witness testimony 351 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:54,156 Speaker 1: from Elizabeth Stride's murder, but it shows us that there 352 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:57,236 Speaker 1: are pitfalls when we take what people thought they saw 353 00:22:57,316 --> 00:22:59,996 Speaker 1: in Whitechapel that night and on the nights of the 354 00:23:00,076 --> 00:23:03,916 Speaker 1: other murders and portray them as facts. Because there was 355 00:23:03,996 --> 00:23:09,396 Speaker 1: never a trial, accounts like Marshall's were never discredited. Instead, 356 00:23:09,436 --> 00:23:12,276 Speaker 1: they're out there in the ether ripe to form the 357 00:23:12,316 --> 00:23:16,516 Speaker 1: foundations for House of Card theories, like Jeff Mudget's thesis 358 00:23:16,516 --> 00:23:19,476 Speaker 1: that is great great Groundfather sailed across the Atlantic to 359 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:22,236 Speaker 1: join the Jack the Ripper killing spree. The advantage of 360 00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:24,796 Speaker 1: people have now looking back with the passage of time 361 00:23:24,836 --> 00:23:26,356 Speaker 1: is that you can pretty much put a spin on 362 00:23:26,396 --> 00:23:29,156 Speaker 1: anything you want to your advantage, because there's such limited 363 00:23:29,236 --> 00:23:30,916 Speaker 1: information for you to tear and say, well, no, you've 364 00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:33,516 Speaker 1: got that completely wrong. We're all just stuck with the 365 00:23:33,636 --> 00:23:35,956 Speaker 1: minimum information we've really got from the coroner reports and 366 00:23:36,036 --> 00:23:38,876 Speaker 1: what was reported at the time. Perhaps this is why 367 00:23:38,916 --> 00:23:43,516 Speaker 1: I'm viewed with such animosity by ripparologists. As a professional historian, 368 00:23:43,876 --> 00:23:47,196 Speaker 1: I hunt for evidence, stress test the facts that I find, 369 00:23:47,276 --> 00:23:52,236 Speaker 1: and cross reference them with other available sources. Ripparologists cherry pick, 370 00:23:52,876 --> 00:23:57,356 Speaker 1: attaching huge importance to whatever supports their theories and ignoring 371 00:23:57,396 --> 00:24:02,396 Speaker 1: what's inconvenient. All this reminds me of how conspiracy theories work. 372 00:24:03,156 --> 00:24:07,316 Speaker 1: They too, are detailed narratives built around scant and disputed facts. 373 00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:12,636 Speaker 1: It's no coincident, but the Whitechapel murders spawned many crackpot 374 00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:17,556 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, with Freemasons, Jews, and Royalty all being implicated 375 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:22,196 Speaker 1: in plots to cover up the murderer's true identity. I 376 00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:26,196 Speaker 1: find this aspect of the Ripper case especially maddening. It's 377 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:29,236 Speaker 1: bad enough that some people ignore the victims and spend 378 00:24:29,236 --> 00:24:33,076 Speaker 1: an inordinate amount of time almost glorifying the killer's deeds, 379 00:24:33,476 --> 00:24:36,356 Speaker 1: but to abuse the historical records so casually in the 380 00:24:36,436 --> 00:24:41,836 Speaker 1: process infuriates me. Further Still, it turns the grisly murders 381 00:24:41,836 --> 00:24:44,876 Speaker 1: of real women into a silly who done it? Game. 382 00:24:47,556 --> 00:24:51,276 Speaker 1: The megastar crime writer Patricia Cornwell, creator of the famous 383 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:55,236 Speaker 1: Scott Heatter novels, also has a very detailed theory Patricia 384 00:24:55,316 --> 00:24:59,756 Speaker 1: links Victorian artist Walter Sickett to the Whitechapel murders. I've 385 00:24:59,756 --> 00:25:02,236 Speaker 1: been reading up on her work and I feel it's 386 00:25:02,436 --> 00:25:05,996 Speaker 1: no more plausible than chefs. There's no statute of limitation 387 00:25:06,116 --> 00:25:09,436 Speaker 1: on harmicide, and just because these cases have had her 388 00:25:09,436 --> 00:25:12,556 Speaker 1: in fourteen years ago, the victims have a right to justice. 389 00:25:13,156 --> 00:25:16,916 Speaker 1: My mind went back to her documentary, Patricia Cornwell's Stalking 390 00:25:16,916 --> 00:25:20,956 Speaker 1: the Ripper. Patricia is clearly a thoughtful and talented person 391 00:25:21,236 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 1: who speaks passionately about wanting to bring justice to the 392 00:25:24,116 --> 00:25:27,596 Speaker 1: murdered women. But I cannot understand the path she has followed, 393 00:25:27,596 --> 00:25:29,956 Speaker 1: and I fear she's falling into the same trap as 394 00:25:29,996 --> 00:25:34,276 Speaker 1: the most zealous ripparologists. I genuinely want to understand what's 395 00:25:34,356 --> 00:25:38,116 Speaker 1: driving her, but getting in touch with Patricia was proving 396 00:25:38,156 --> 00:25:42,156 Speaker 1: more difficult than I had anticipated. I write my agent, Sarah, 397 00:25:42,436 --> 00:25:45,076 Speaker 1: hoping she might have some ideas. I mean, this is 398 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:48,116 Speaker 1: like contacting a superstar. Really, I'm not quite sure how 399 00:25:48,716 --> 00:25:50,956 Speaker 1: I'm going to manage to help you with this. What 400 00:25:50,996 --> 00:25:54,196 Speaker 1: are we dealing with it? I mean, Patricia Cornwell is 401 00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:56,956 Speaker 1: like a kind of force of nature. How big is she? 402 00:25:57,836 --> 00:26:00,756 Speaker 1: I've never met her, myself, but she does. Her reputation 403 00:26:00,836 --> 00:26:03,316 Speaker 1: really precedes her. She is a sort of action woman 404 00:26:03,436 --> 00:26:07,396 Speaker 1: of the literally world. And that first case Scarpettiitt was 405 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:11,036 Speaker 1: the first bonfidi forensics thriller, which is extraordinary when you 406 00:26:11,076 --> 00:26:13,956 Speaker 1: think about it. I mean the CSI Dexter. You can't 407 00:26:13,996 --> 00:26:16,316 Speaker 1: turn on the telly without tripping over something, which is 408 00:26:16,316 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 1: all about forensic detail, and she predated all of that. 409 00:26:19,636 --> 00:26:21,756 Speaker 1: She started writing those books at a time where there 410 00:26:21,836 --> 00:26:24,756 Speaker 1: wasn't really any interest in that. Sarah said that she 411 00:26:24,796 --> 00:26:27,556 Speaker 1: would reach out to Patricia's US agent for me. I 412 00:26:27,596 --> 00:26:32,476 Speaker 1: was keeping everything crossed. Interestingly, she also thought that Patricia 413 00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:34,836 Speaker 1: and I might have more in common than I'd imagined. 414 00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:38,916 Speaker 1: She's very interested in victimhood. Her books are all about 415 00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:44,356 Speaker 1: finding justice for people who've had terrible things done to them. 416 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:48,756 Speaker 1: Patricia's Walter Sickett theory, like the prostitute killer theory, wrests 417 00:26:48,836 --> 00:26:54,236 Speaker 1: on simplistic ideas of misogyny and sexual deviance. Patricia contends 418 00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:57,436 Speaker 1: that as a child, Sickert underwent surgery to correct a 419 00:26:57,516 --> 00:27:01,156 Speaker 1: fisture on his penis. The operation was botched, leaving him 420 00:27:01,156 --> 00:27:05,596 Speaker 1: disfigured and impotent. As a result, says Patricia, he raged 421 00:27:05,636 --> 00:27:10,636 Speaker 1: against women. None of this theory ry screams interest in 422 00:27:10,676 --> 00:27:13,796 Speaker 1: the victims to me, certainly, not in who they were 423 00:27:13,876 --> 00:27:16,516 Speaker 1: before their murders, or in the lives that they led, 424 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 1: or the forces that put them into the killer's path. 425 00:27:20,036 --> 00:27:25,116 Speaker 1: I genuinely want to understand why people invest so much time, money, 426 00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:29,756 Speaker 1: and emotional energy into thinking about Jack the Ripper. Maybe 427 00:27:29,756 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 1: Patricia can articulate that for me, and maybe I can 428 00:27:33,316 --> 00:27:35,876 Speaker 1: convince her to focus less on the psychology of a 429 00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:38,676 Speaker 1: killer will never catch and more on the women that 430 00:27:38,756 --> 00:27:42,996 Speaker 1: he murdered. Maybe I can convince her to finally call 431 00:27:43,076 --> 00:27:58,196 Speaker 1: off the hunt. Bad Women the Ripper Were Told is 432 00:27:58,196 --> 00:28:01,396 Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries and Me Hallie Ribbinhold, 433 00:28:01,596 --> 00:28:04,356 Speaker 1: and is based on my book The Five. It was 434 00:28:04,436 --> 00:28:07,076 Speaker 1: produced and co written by Ryan Dilley and Alice Fines, 435 00:28:07,316 --> 00:28:10,756 Speaker 1: with help from Pete Norton. Pascal Wise Sound designed and 436 00:28:10,836 --> 00:28:14,356 Speaker 1: mixed the show and composed all the original music. You 437 00:28:14,476 --> 00:28:17,956 Speaker 1: also heard the voice talents of Soul Boyer, Melanie Gutridge, 438 00:28:18,276 --> 00:28:21,876 Speaker 1: Gemma Saunders, and rufus Wright. The show also wouldn't have 439 00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:25,476 Speaker 1: been possible without the work of mil LaBelle, Jacob Weisberg, 440 00:28:25,796 --> 00:28:31,356 Speaker 1: Jen Guerra, Heather Fane, Carlie Migliori, Maggie Taylor, Nicole Morano 441 00:28:31,716 --> 00:28:35,796 Speaker 1: and Daniella Lacan were special thanks to my agents Sarah 442 00:28:35,796 --> 00:28:37,156 Speaker 1: Ballard and Ellie Karen