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Speaker 1: So yeah, one Sunday, the gang somebody beat this guy

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Speaker 1: up so bad and he ran into our congregate. Our

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Speaker 1: church was jam packed. He ran in the lobby but

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Speaker 1: naked bleeding. He had got me on Sunday morning, Sunday

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Speaker 1: restrict him and we were like, okay, we gotta do something.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney,

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Speaker 2: I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,

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Speaker 2: I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach in

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Speaker 2: inner City of Memphis. And the last part it unintentionally

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Speaker 2: led to an oscar for the film about our team.

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Speaker 2: It's called Undefeated. Y'all. I believe our country's problems will

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Speaker 2: never be solved by a bunch of fancy people in

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Speaker 2: nice suits talking big words that nobody understands on seeing

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Speaker 2: in a box, but rather an army of normal folks USh,

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Speaker 2: just you and me deciding, Hey, I can help. That's

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Speaker 2: what Pastor Corey Brooks the voice we just heard is done.

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Speaker 2: Corey started a church in the third most violent neighborhood

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Speaker 2: of Chicago, and the work of his church in nonprofit

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Speaker 2: project Hood has helped improve the neighborhoods so that it's

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Speaker 2: now the fifteenth most violent one and they're just getting started.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait for you to meet Corey. Right after

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Speaker 2: these brief messages from our Jenner sponsors, Pastor Corey Brooks

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Speaker 2: all the way from Chicago. Welcome to Memphis, brother, Thank

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Speaker 2: you appreciate it. I'm glad to be here. I was

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Speaker 2: flight down it was great. You know.

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Speaker 1: I love Tennessee, so coming to Memphis is a lessons

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Speaker 1: so I'm glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: It's almost a homecoming of sorts. Almost.

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Speaker 1: I'm about sixty miles from Memphis. I was born in

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Speaker 1: a little town called Union City, Tennessee, but we actually

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Speaker 1: lived in Kenton, Tennessee, population then of about fifteen hundred.

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Speaker 1: That's up around Obuying and mckibyan County, that's right, and

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Speaker 1: an Oby County kid. Yeah, so home of the white squirrel.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the only places in America that I

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Speaker 1: know of that has white squirrels. I tell everybody all

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Speaker 1: the time that I didn't even know squirrels were different colors.

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Speaker 1: And I can remember when we moved to Indiana, my

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Speaker 1: first little fight on the playground was about a squirrel.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was arguing with this kid. Hey, this squirrel,

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Speaker 1: that's not a squirrel. He was as a brown little thing.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what it was. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: a rat or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Up there, they've got this albino gene in the square. Yes,

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Speaker 2: how long you grew up there? Right?

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Speaker 1: So? Yeah, I was born in Union City, Tennessee, and

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Speaker 1: we moved to Mounsey, Indiana, when I was about ten

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Speaker 1: or eleven. And so I grew up in Munsey, Indiana,

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Speaker 1: And that's where I went to high school. That's where

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Speaker 1: I went to college fall ball State. Right about the Cardinals, Yes, sir, I.

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Speaker 2: Believe it or not. I have a friend played football

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Speaker 2: for Boss. So yeah, so years ago. I don't think

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Speaker 2: he was any good. So no count talk about. But

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Speaker 2: that's how I know Ball State's up there.

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Speaker 1: And David Letterman, David Letterman, Yeah, he's the most famous

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Speaker 1: graduate of ball State University.

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Speaker 2: Dad, and he grew up somewhere around there. I think Indianapolis.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's right. I think you're right. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: All right, So mom, dad tell me about it. My dad.

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Speaker 1: I didn't really know my dad too well. I tell

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Speaker 1: people I probably saw my dad about five times. He

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Speaker 1: was from Union City and even though I lived sixteen

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Speaker 1: miles in Kenton, I didn't have a relationship with him

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Speaker 1: and didn't know him very well. My mom just recently

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Speaker 1: died about a year and a half ago of cancer.

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Speaker 1: But she was a great woman and worked really hard.

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Speaker 1: Made sure I went to church every Sunday. And you know,

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Speaker 1: even when I didn't want to go, she made me go.

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Speaker 1: And that was part of the deal. If you stay

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Speaker 1: in her house, you got to get up and go

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Speaker 1: to church on Sunday morning. So and I'm glad she did,

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Speaker 1: even though I didn't like it.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad she did. How many of you were there?

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Speaker 2: Three of us, all three of you.

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Speaker 1: All three of us, Yeah, all three of us gonna

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Speaker 1: be in a few There's a about a twelve year

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Speaker 1: gap between me and my younger my younger brothers, So

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Speaker 1: I was kind of like the babysitter as well. Bet

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Speaker 1: so did your mom remarry My mom remarried to my stepfather,

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Speaker 1: who got addicted to drugs. Really wasn't doing very good

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Speaker 1: when I was a teenager growing up. He wasn't a

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Speaker 1: good wasn't a good man, but thankfully got saved and

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Speaker 1: got a relationship with the Lord changed his life. And

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Speaker 1: he's been drug free now, probably for about thirty years.

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Speaker 2: But your experience growing up with him was he was

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Speaker 2: a drug addict.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, experience drawing up with him was horrible. Uh, he

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Speaker 1: was a drug addict. Always a bunch of drama in

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Speaker 1: our house, so I remember it very well. And dysfunction, drama, heartache, hardship,

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Speaker 1: all that goes along with all that stuff. So you

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Speaker 1: know that on a personal basis, I know it on

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Speaker 1: a personal base. I think that's I don't think I

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Speaker 1: know that's one of the reasons why my heart is

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Speaker 1: so sensitive toward individuals, especially in Chicago, who are in

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Speaker 1: those kinds of situations. If you come to our church,

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Speaker 1: you'll find me always around the kids or people who

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Speaker 1: come from similar background. So I guess my heart is

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Speaker 1: just kind of turned that way.

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Speaker 2: I understand. My dad left when I'm a home when

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Speaker 2: I was four, Mom was married and divorced five times,

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Speaker 2: and you know, the vast majority of the things I've

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Speaker 2: done and work in the community has been with kids

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Speaker 2: who primarily come from that situation. I think we're it's odd,

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Speaker 2: but I think we're drawn to our own trauma. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a passive scripture in Roma's eight twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: It's my favorite. It talks about how we know that

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Speaker 1: all things work together for good to then the Lord,

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Speaker 1: who are called according to his purpose. And even I

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Speaker 1: believe now, even all the trauma, heartache, hardship, even though

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Speaker 1: it hurt, and even though it was a tough experience,

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Speaker 1: God used it to my advantage. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: calling is very sensitive toward all the people that I

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Speaker 1: deal with.

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Speaker 2: Because of my upbringing, I think that only makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but.

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Speaker 2: Your upbringing. You may have been in church every Sunday,

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Speaker 2: but you were an acchoir boy. Oh no through Saturday.

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Speaker 2: No sense. So tell me about kind of who you

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Speaker 2: were as a as a teen and kind of coming.

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Speaker 1: So you know, as a teenager, I knew I was

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Speaker 1: called to preach at like fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Now I read that you have a heck, you know,

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Speaker 2: a fourteen years old your quote called to preach? Well,

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Speaker 2: you know you ain't calling yourself nothing but a street hit.

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Speaker 1: Well, when you go to church all the time, you

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Speaker 1: know you have some idea of at least I believe

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Speaker 1: you have some idea of a sense of purpose in calling.

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Speaker 1: That's nudging you, that's pushing you. As you know, some

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Speaker 1: people will call it conscious. I was very aware of

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Speaker 1: my spiritual conscious and so at fourteen I kind of

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Speaker 1: fell lad like, think I'm supposed to be a preacher.

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Speaker 1: But the problem I despise preachers. I did not want

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Speaker 1: to be a preacher. I hated you know what, why'd

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Speaker 1: you just have driving? Chicken eating? That's what that was.

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Speaker 1: That was my concept, my mindset. These preachers had these

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Speaker 1: big cats. They just said, who's Brian. Oh, Brian is

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Speaker 1: my assistant, our chief of staff. He grew up in

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Speaker 1: our church. He's since he was about thirteen five.

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Speaker 2: Well, if y'all hear a background laugh, Brian, Brian, So

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Speaker 2: what's up? Welcome to show. Yeah, usually I got to

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Speaker 2: put up with Alex do in the background. So I

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Speaker 2: got two of you now, so I actually I got

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Speaker 2: Alex right right right, So if you'll hear a background laugh, right,

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Speaker 2: So now you talk two of them, Yeah, both underpaid

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Speaker 2: and both irritating having good interview so much. All right,

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Speaker 2: So you didn't like preachers because of chicken eating?

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Speaker 1: That's all I got out of what you bro You

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Speaker 1: know I was about that was my mind said. I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, these preachers, they just want to have you

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Speaker 1: know these advents with food and drive Cadillacs. It was

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Speaker 1: a bad perception of what I thought a preacher was.

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Speaker 2: Well, but let's be look, they weren't doing much in

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Speaker 2: the community. And so I here and we are very candid. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I gotta be careful because I'm a white dude,

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Speaker 2: and if I don't say this properly, people are going

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Speaker 2: to color me the wrong way. But it's not just

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Speaker 2: a perception in urban areas. Yeah, there are some situations

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Speaker 2: where pastoring a church is more of a profession than

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Speaker 2: a calling. Yeah, and that's what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, And I just did not want to be

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Speaker 1: a preacher, and so I did everything I could to

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Speaker 1: rebel against that whole mindset, that whole concept. So fourteen

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Speaker 1: to nineteen, I was partying, drinking, sex and anything I

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Speaker 1: could do to like not be in tune with church.

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Speaker 1: Still in Muni Yeah, still in Munsey, Indiana, smoking weed,

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Speaker 1: smoking weed, Although I tell my son, I didn't do

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Speaker 1: that much weed smoking. I did a lot of beer drinking.

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Speaker 1: Thought it, especially when I found out my junior year,

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Speaker 1: I think it was my junior or somephomore year, I

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Speaker 1: was a real skinny kid and They told me I

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Speaker 1: needed to gain some weight. And I remember seeing a

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Speaker 1: minute bowl in the Jet magazine on a beer diet

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Speaker 1: and they was using it to game.

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Speaker 2: Wait, that's all the excuses I need. But the chicken

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Speaker 2: eating would have helped too. So the chicken eating would

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Speaker 2: have helped tremendously. Chicken and beer. So in Memphis, the

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Speaker 2: man who I would say was maybe the most influential

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Speaker 2: pastor in my life. It's man named Tim Russell. He's

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Speaker 2: from the Northeast. He's passed now. He died in COVID

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Speaker 2: and I loved him, still love him. I still will

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Speaker 2: have his text messages on my phone that I refused

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Speaker 2: to erase, and sometimes when I'm in a bad spot,

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Speaker 2: I will pull up his text and just read them

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Speaker 2: as encouragement. I love that man. Anyway. He was president

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Speaker 2: at Geneva College at one time, and he came to Memphis.

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Speaker 2: He became an associate pastor of our church. But he

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Speaker 2: came to Memphis specifically originally to be the chair of

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Speaker 2: the Memphis Center for Urban Theological seminary called Imcuts. And

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Speaker 2: what it was was a bunch of folks got together

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Speaker 2: and said, you know what, there's a lot of really

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Speaker 2: well intentioned churches and pastors in their cities, but a

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Speaker 2: lot of those guys had in those churches hadn't been

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Speaker 2: afforded a true seminary education, and so there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of preaching from the Old Testament, there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: firm brimstone, but there's a little bit of theology you

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Speaker 2: missing in some of it. And we don't want to

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Speaker 2: doubt them, you know, we want to help them. So

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Speaker 2: they started this Memphis Center for Urban Theological Seminary where

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Speaker 2: they offered opportunity for urban preachers to come in and

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Speaker 2: get true theological seminary training to then go back with

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Speaker 2: their churches to hopefully grow a Christian narrative beyond what

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Speaker 2: their limitations had been. And in large part it was

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Speaker 2: pretty successful. But when I hear you talk about what

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Speaker 2: you were put off by, it sounds something like some

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Speaker 2: of that. Yeah, Yeah, it was something like that.

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Speaker 1: The whole idea and concept that here you had these

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Speaker 1: guys who were in the community, but they weren't really

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Speaker 1: at least the ones I saw at that time, they

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Speaker 1: weren't really helping the community. Until I came across a

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Speaker 1: pastor that I love to this day, very Dealey has

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Speaker 1: demensia now, but he's my pastor, and I still treated

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Speaker 1: me like a son.

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Speaker 2: His name is Willie J.

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Speaker 1: Jackson, who also drove a Cadillac. But he was man

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Speaker 1: reverent and loved the Lord and loved people.

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Speaker 2: And when I saw that, I was like, Okay, that's

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Speaker 2: who I wanted to be when I was thinking fourteen

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Speaker 2: years old. Yeah, and now a few messages from our

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Speaker 2: general sponsors. But first, I hope you'll subscribe to an

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Speaker 2: army of normal folks wherever you listen to podcasts, so

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Speaker 2: And if you haven't already, please rate and review us

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Speaker 2: so that more normal folks can discover their army. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for listening today, we'll be right back. We now returned

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Speaker 2: to Pastor Brooks graduating from Ball State with a degree

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Speaker 2: in political science. He thought that he also wanted to

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Speaker 2: be a lawyer, but in his first year of law school,

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Speaker 2: he realized that he really needed to be in seminary.

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Speaker 2: And after graduating from Dallas Theological Pastor Brooks was off

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Speaker 2: to the races with his new calling.

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Speaker 1: So I started passing a little bit small church in Richmond, Indiana.

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Speaker 1: I was there for an internship and over the summer

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Speaker 1: when the pastor died. So while I was there, the

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Speaker 1: pastor died, and you know, I had every intention on

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Speaker 1: going back to Dallas, and they came to me and

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Speaker 1: was like, hey, would you be our pastor? You know,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh wow. So I thought about

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Speaker 1: it and I made the commitment. So I was like,

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Speaker 1: I might as well. So at twenty two years old,

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Speaker 1: twenty three, get me returned. Twenty three, I started pastoring

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Speaker 1: the Mount Mariah Baptist Church in Richmond, Indiana.

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Speaker 2: Not enough experience, not enough wisdom, but it's funny. At

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Speaker 2: twenty three years old, they let me practice on them.

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Speaker 2: At twenty three years old, I got my first head

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Speaker 2: football coach. Well you and I showed it. I showed

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Speaker 2: up as just a football coach. In two weeks before

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Speaker 2: the first game, the head coach said I'm out, deuces,

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Speaker 2: I got a better job out and they look at

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Speaker 2: me and said you're yeah yeah. So when I say

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Speaker 2: not enough experience of wisdom to run a church, absolutely

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Speaker 2: I didn't have the experience of wisdom runner football team either.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you fake it. You fake it till you

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Speaker 1: make it. And that's exactly what I was doing, you know,

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Speaker 1: But you grew up quick. You grew up quick. And

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Speaker 1: whenever I get a chance to go back there, I

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Speaker 1: always tell them how much I appreciate them letting me

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Speaker 1: grew up in front of them and let me make

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Speaker 1: all kinds of mistakes and let me be arrogant, and

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Speaker 1: you know, teaching me and loving me through all of

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Speaker 1: that was It was a great experience. And then when

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Speaker 1: I got married, it was even a greater experience because

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Speaker 1: they loved me and my wife dearly.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't an all black church.

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Speaker 1: It was an all black church. We had a few

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Speaker 1: white members, but it's predominantly it's predominantly black church.

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Speaker 2: I asked that because I said to you before we

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Speaker 2: got on, I think it's reprehensible that we call ourselves

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Speaker 2: Christians and are called to be christ Like, and we

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Speaker 2: allow Sunday to be the most segregated day in our country.

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Speaker 2: I don't mean that as a cut to you being

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Speaker 2: at an all black church, no more than I grew

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Speaker 2: up in an all white church. I just it's so

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Speaker 2: infrequent that we actually talk about really diverse churches, and

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Speaker 2: it's unfortunate.

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Speaker 1: It's very unfortunate, And you know, even though I pass

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Speaker 1: on the South side of Chicago.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you wholeheartedly.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that it pains me dearly is

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Speaker 1: that we don't have more experiences where we come together

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Speaker 1: as people of different races. I really, you know, I

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Speaker 1: would love to pastor multi racial church. And to this point,

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Speaker 1: now we're considering trying to have We got all these

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Speaker 1: Venezuela migrants who are right in our neighborhood, and they

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Speaker 1: come to us every day for help, and so we're

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Speaker 1: helping as many as we can. So we are we're contemplating, Hey,

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Speaker 1: maybe we should have a Spanish speaking worship service because

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Speaker 1: they're now starting to come to our church and now

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Speaker 1: they're listening to me, but they don't even speak English

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Speaker 1: some of the most parts. So you know, it pains

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Speaker 1: me that that there's so much segregation in church and

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Speaker 1: that I wish there were more experiences where all of

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Speaker 1: us come together, because I think that's the height of

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Speaker 1: what Christianity is really supposed to be about.

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Speaker 2: So you leave there and you go to.

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Speaker 1: I leave Richmond, Indiana, and I go to the most

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Speaker 1: traditional Baptist church in all of the world, West Point Baptists.

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Speaker 1: The West Point Baptist Church, the bastion of the I'm

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Speaker 1: about twenty six, So.

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Speaker 2: You're twenty six up in Chicago and you go to

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Speaker 2: this real traditional Baptist church called West Point Baptist. Tell

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Speaker 2: me about it.

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Speaker 1: So you know West Point Baptist Church. They it was

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Speaker 1: made up of a lot of teachers, lawyers, more of

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Speaker 1: a in the words of my grandfather from Tennessee, he

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Speaker 1: would call it a high cotton church.

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Speaker 2: One of them high cotton churches. He didn't know what

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Speaker 2: it is. I didn't know where's she? Where are you from?

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Speaker 2: I'm from Chicago, but my family is from his mother good. Well,

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Speaker 2: you know it's all about yeah, okay, go ahead. So

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Speaker 2: so you know when I'm at this high cotton church

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Speaker 2: in Chicago and uh, and I'm not fit too good.

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Speaker 2: I'm not fitting in too good. You know.

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Speaker 1: They loved me at first, but I really had a

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Speaker 1: heart toward reaching people who were unchurched. The church ironically

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Speaker 1: was on the edge of the projects a lot of

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Speaker 1: I found out later that a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: probably had grown up in the projects when if the

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Speaker 1: college become professional, but they still came to this church.

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Speaker 1: And so it was made up of an older congregation.

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Speaker 1: I really started going after the young people in the neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: and the church was growing by leaps and bounds. But

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Speaker 1: even though it was growing, it was it was such

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Speaker 1: an internal fight going on that I tried to shield

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Speaker 1: people who were new to church. I tried to shield

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Speaker 1: them away from it, but it was obvious they felt

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Speaker 1: like we were taking over their church.

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Speaker 2: They didn't want you tearing up the neighborhood. Yeah, they

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Speaker 2: didn't want me to tearing up the neighborhood. They didn't

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Speaker 2: want me tearing up the neighborhood, and they didn't want

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Speaker 2: to mean in their church. Ironically, I mean, in all candor,

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Speaker 2: that's prejudiced, yeah, without doubt. But it's economic prejudice. It's

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Speaker 2: economic prejudice because we're not talking about prejudice educational economic

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Speaker 2: prejudice exactly, which I'm so glad you used that phrase,

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Speaker 2: because that exists and that ain't got nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with white and black folks. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know, I tell people all the time that I

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Speaker 1: really think the biggest prejudices that we face today.

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Speaker 2: Is not color, but economics and education. Culture. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Culture, We're so divided because of those things, more so

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Speaker 1: than color, And I think we find, you know, you'll

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Speaker 1: find poor blacks and poor whites saying and poor people

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Speaker 1: period saying the same things.

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Speaker 2: So we know after hearing this that you leave and

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Speaker 2: we'll go to where you leave, but we're going to

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Speaker 2: take a detour real quick, sent sure political science, Okay,

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Speaker 2: all right. One of my big beliefs is that Fox, CNN,

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Speaker 2: CNBC News Mix, all of those folks are incented by

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Speaker 2: an enormous amount of wealth and power to craft narratives

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Speaker 2: that divide us. And I think DC is full of

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Speaker 2: a lot of lobbies politicians. I mean New York and

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Speaker 2: DC is the cradle of finance and power. Throw in Chicago,

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Speaker 2: in LA. But New York and d C are the

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Speaker 2: leaders of the pack. That's where we get our media,

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Speaker 2: that's where we get our news from, that's where we

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Speaker 2: get our policy from. And it's also piled with an

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Speaker 2: enormous amount of influence, power and wealth. But narratives that

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Speaker 2: come out of there are also crafted to divide us,

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Speaker 2: scare us, to convince us that if you don't side

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Speaker 2: with me on Fox or CNN, and you don't side

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Speaker 2: with me on Republican or Democrats, this is what the

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Speaker 2: big bag ugly people on the other side are going

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Speaker 2: to do to ruin your right. That happens in the

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Speaker 2: church too, oh doubt, without a doubt, it happens all

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Speaker 2: the time, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think people are afraid of differences, and we magnify

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Speaker 1: those differences so that people become even more afraid so

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Speaker 1: they can stay the way they are and people don't

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Speaker 1: have to grow and they don't have to build relationships.

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Speaker 1: But I think the more meaningful way is to have dialogue,

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Speaker 1: to have discussion. And I think when we even when

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Speaker 1: we're on the left or the right, where the republic

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Speaker 1: or a Democrat, if we have meaningful dialogue, meaningful discussion,

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Speaker 1: regardless of we're Baptists or Presbyterian, if we sit down

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Speaker 1: and talk, we're going to find out we have way

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Speaker 1: more things in common than we do not in common.

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Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we need to just let's focus

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Speaker 1: on the things that we have in common. We don't

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Speaker 1: have to fight about every single thing. And just because

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Speaker 1: we disagree on a couple of things, that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: we can't come together and unify and solve some of

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Speaker 1: the issues of the world that we all want to solve.

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Speaker 1: And I think I think somehow, some way, we got

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Speaker 1: to continue to try to fight to bring people together, regardless.

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Speaker 2: Of what's your time at West Point Baptist Church is

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Speaker 2: a microcosm of that narrative that was rejected.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it was rejected totally. You know, the fact that

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Speaker 1: you could be on the South Side of Chicago and

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Speaker 1: not be welcome to reach out to people who are

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Speaker 1: disenfranchised and disadvantaged and impoverished by black and by black.

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Speaker 2: People making you feel that way.

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Speaker 1: I had never witnessed that or experienced that, and to

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Speaker 1: see it, I was dumbfounded. I was amazed that you

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Speaker 1: could be in a black community and have elites not

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Speaker 1: want to deal with certain individuals.

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Speaker 2: But that's exactly what it was.

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Speaker 1: And I think that experience has helped to craft some

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Speaker 1: of the way I think about certain elites.

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Speaker 2: Black elites. That is really, really profound. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: I gotta tell a story. Yes, go ahead, I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: do the reader's digest. At Leasta like shrimp, I was

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Speaker 2: on the coast on a business trip. She told me

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Speaker 2: to go get some shrimp, put it on ice, and

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Speaker 2: bring it home because we're gonna have a shrimp bolk

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Speaker 2: coast to Memphis five hours so I went to Target,

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Speaker 2: got a thing, and I went got some ice, put

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Speaker 2: it on there, and I went down to the docks

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Speaker 2: to wait on the shrimp boats. You ever been on

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Speaker 2: the docks and a wharf? Yes? You ever been there, Brian?

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Speaker 2: You ever been on docks of the wharf? Yes? It stinks, yes,

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Speaker 2: dish guts yeah, stagnant water. It's future. It makes you

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Speaker 2: want to vomit. It smell so bad. Well, I found

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Speaker 2: something distincts worse than the wharf. The fishermen. The boats

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Speaker 2: show up and I'm waiting on my shrimp, and here

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Speaker 2: they are. They've been out since sun up. Yeah, sundown

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Speaker 2: coming up. They've been hit with sulfur everything, sweat, toothpaste

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Speaker 2: and toothbrushers are more of a suggestion of environment, and

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Speaker 2: don't smoke tupacs of marble red right, And they're repulsive.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm at the suppulsive place around these repulsive people.

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Speaker 2: But my wife told me, get shrimp. I'll do it, shrimp.

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Speaker 2: So I'm headed home. I bot Jack's, Mississippi, which about

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Speaker 2: halfway between the docks and Memphis, and the dawns on me.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly who Christ surrounded himself. Wow, yeah, now what

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Speaker 2: are we doing sitting in hogh cotton when there's people

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Speaker 2: around us starving?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that's that's kind of how I felt

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Speaker 1: in that church. You know, all of these people are around,

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Speaker 1: they're hurting, they're living in the projects. There's so much

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Speaker 1: there's so much violence and so much chaos. But here

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Speaker 1: we were in this church and everybody was happy just

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Speaker 1: staying like they were and not reaching out to individuals.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't. I couldn't stand it. And yeah, and your

431
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,719
Speaker 2: heart was there because that was your reality of your

432
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: up brain. Absolutely. Yeah, So I moved.

433
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: And you know, you don't see you don't see it

434
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: at first, but as you get older, like I am now,

435
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: you look back over the trauma as your childhood and

436
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: you look back to where your heart is bent toward.

437
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: You're like, man, thank you Lord, And I'm glad that

438
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: God placed me in Chicago, because I tell people all

439
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 1: the time, you know, I could have easily gone when

440
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 1: you come around of Dallas and Graciologically, you could go

441
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 1: anywhere in the country. You can go to the suburb

442
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: church and have a nice picket fence and grow your

443
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: family and have a nice place. But I thank God

444
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: every day that he placed me on the South side

445
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: of Chicago, and people they think I grew up there.

446
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: They think it's so such a perfect fit. And I

447
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: thank God because those are the individuals that I love

448
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: the minister to. Those are the individuals that I love

449
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 1: to be around. I can remember my wife used to

450
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: get so angry. She's like, why are you around all

451
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: these guys in gangs all the time. It's just a

452
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: bunch of gangsters around. But that's who I felt led

453
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: the minister to, and that's who God put me in

454
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: front of, and I'm thankful for it.

455
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: So West Point Baptist he went to.

456
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 1: So I left West I said, you know what, I'm

457
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: not going to fight them any longer. Let me let

458
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: them have their church. I'm going to plan a church

459
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: at Dallas. One of the first things I remembered they

460
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 1: had a missions week. I didn't even know what missions was,

461
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: and so they had a missions week. And during missions week,

462
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: I went by this table and it was about church planning.

463
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: And I had never heard of church planning. I heard

464
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: the church splits, church fights, not church planning, and so

465
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: so I would read about church planning, study about church planning.

466
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 1: I was like, this is what I'm going to do.

467
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to plan a church. But when I got

468
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: called the Mount Mariah and I got called the West Point,

469
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, that's what I'm supposed to do.

470
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: Because at that time I never heard I didn't know

471
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: any black pastors who were planning churches. But then when

472
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: I had that experience at West Point, I was like,

473
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to do what I learned

474
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 1: at Dallas. I'm going to plan a church and I'm

475
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: going to try it. So I followed the little steps.

476
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: I got me a little group together, called some of

477
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: my buddies who were in Chicago, said Hey, I'm going

478
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: to start a church. I talked about five people who

479
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: were at the church with me and secretly told them

480
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: what I was going to do. We started meeting as

481
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: a little small group, and before you knew it, the

482
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: little small group, we turned it into a church called

483
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: New Beginning's Church of Chicago. We started meeting in a school,

484
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: and I was able to go after those same people

485
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: that they didn't want in their church, and it instantly

486
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: started growing like crazy.

487
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: I've always wondered how does a pastor feed his family

488
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: when he's planning a church, Because there's not a whole

489
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 2: lot of people given offerings, ties and everything else. Do

490
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: you starve when you're doing it?

491
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: Well, no, you starve a little bit. You don't have

492
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: as much money. So I did work. You know, I've

493
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: worked at the Athletic Athletes foot for like a year.

494
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: My wife was a teacher.

495
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 2: Was my question. So you're actually working, yeah, a job

496
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: while you're also building a church. So I mean it's

497
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 2: a taxing, it's hard work. It's an entrepreneurial endeavor. Absolutely.

498
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: And plus I've always been a good store, even when

499
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: I was passing the little bit church. I've always always

500
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: always saved money and I've been good financially. God blessed

501
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: me to to so you were able to at the

502
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: weather I budget it. Let me just say that I

503
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: know how to budget, and we knew how to sustain

504
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: ourselves and survive off a little. We didn't have a lot,

505
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: and we thank God for what we had, but we

506
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: didn't we didn't need a lot at that time.

507
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 2: Got it and so New Beginnings Church November two thousand

508
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: and the heart of one of the most dangerous neighborhoods

509
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: called Woodlawn. Yeah, tell me about Woodlawn.

510
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: So Chicago is made up early history of the mobs,

511
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: the mafia. You got all the mafia people, but not

512
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: only mafia in Chicago. That's where a lot of gangs originated.

513
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: So the Woodline area on the south side of Chicago

514
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: is where all the gangs in Chicago started, specifically in

515
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: like six yeah, the sixties. In the sixties, the Woodline

516
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: area is where black gang started.

517
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: So okay, and I was thinking, wise guys, you're saying

518
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: the black gangs.

519
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, but before that, al Capone's home was in the

520
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: Woodlawn area.

521
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: Wow.

522
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: So as those Italian brothers moved out and blacks moved

523
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: in in the sixties, Blacks in the late sixties, that

524
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: where gangs. A lot of gangs started right in Woodland.

525
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: The Black Pea Stones they started there, the Gangster Disciples,

526
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: the Black Disciples, all of those top gangs on the.

527
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: South side of Chicago started in Woodlawn. And you blop

528
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: a church down.

529
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, we said, okay, where's the roughest area in Chicago

530
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: on the south side, And everybody was like.

531
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: Woodlawn, Woodlawn, Woodline.

532
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: And at that time I hadn't I wasn't real familiar

533
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: with Woodland, even though because I was in the Bronxbury area.

534
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: I knew a little bit about it, and we started

535
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: going visiting it, and I started telling people I wanted

536
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: to plan a church. I went and talked to the

537
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: aldermen in that area who's now a member of our

538
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: present church, and I told her I wanted to put

539
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: a church in her neighborhood. And she was really receptive,

540
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: and she showed me some buildings and none of them

541
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: really appealed. And then I met this gentleman. His name

542
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: was Herman Roberts. He was one of the first black

543
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: hotel owners in Chicago, and he had this place called

544
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: the Roberts Show Club and Lounge, and had this old

545
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: skating rink.

546
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: And the skating rink was horrible.

547
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: I mean by this time, by this time, this skating

548
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: rink was a dump, emptied. It had been empty for

549
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: like five years, and they were having I don't know

550
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: if you're familiar with it, but they were having what

551
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: they call rave parties. And so the white kids from

552
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: the suburbs would come with the black kids in Woodland

553
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: and they would have these rave parties at this abandoned building.

554
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: That's what this skating ron does. That work out wonder

555
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: it was. It was from what I hear, it was

556
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: a very crazy scene.

557
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 2: So mister Robert would taking these buildings without people knowing

558
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 2: and just have like.

559
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, they they just have a weekend parties. They do

560
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: them now they have, you know, warehouses in Chicago where

561
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: they have big parties and things like that, raves, pop

562
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: up raves, pop up parties. I don't know what they

563
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: call them now. But so that's what was going on.

564
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: That's what was going this place. Yes, and you buy.

565
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: We bought it.

566
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: So everybody was like, didn't even have wire left in

567
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: it was.

568
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: There was no plumbing, it was no wires. It was

569
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: it was.

570
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: It was horrible, I mean horrible, but chee well, it

571
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: really wasn't real cheap. Mister Roberts was a uh you know,

572
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: he was he was different. So he made us pay

573
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars for the building and and the

574
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: and the property and uh but we had our church.

575
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: We had saved up that amount of money, so we

576
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: were able to acquire it and purchase it.

577
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: But if it was a skating rink and bowling al

578
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: a type thing, it was probably a rather large.

579
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was large. It was a large it's

580
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: for Chicago. It was a very large footprint, it had parking,

581
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: it had space. It's you know, fifty thousand square feet

582
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: in Chicago is a lot. And then they have some

583
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: some parking. That's even remarkable. So we were able to

584
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: get that building. And it was a mess, and we

585
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: we we we gutted the whole building. We volunteered, our

586
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: church volunteered, everybody volunteered. It took us months and many

587
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: many dumpsters to empty that whole building out. Then we started,

588
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, trying to raise money to fix it up,

589
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: and we finally were able to convince even how we

590
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: convinced the bank to give us a loan was amazing,

591
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: But we finally convinced the bank to give us a loan,

592
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: and we fixed it up and now we thankfully we

593
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: paid that loan off and we're Jebt free.

594
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: What was do you remember the date of the first

595
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: real live church service?

596
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: So the first live worship service would have been two

597
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: thousand and seven. Wow, so yeah, two thousand, so we

598
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: started that's not that long. Oh no, So we started

599
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: our church in two thousand. Two thousand and seven, we

600
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: were in the skating ring. Yeah, we were, Yeah, we

601
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: were we were we were having a church in the

602
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: former skating ring Jesus.

603
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: It was called a Route six.

604
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: The skating ring was called Route sixty six, and so

605
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: everybody was familiar with the skating rink and everybody was

606
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: amazed that we were able to turn it into a church.

607
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 2: Did people from the neighborhood start showing up?

608
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: That's what happened, people, because everybody knew the building. People

609
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: really started coming just to see, you know, what did

610
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: they do with the skating rink? You know, out of curiosity.

611
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: And then once they came out of curiosity or invitation,

612
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: they really liked what we were doing. And we were

613
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: really focusing on trying to reach unchurched people, people who

614
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: had normally either been rejected by church, or turned off

615
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: by church, or just totally left church.

616
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: That's the group that we were like you as a

617
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: kid didn't like Astris absolutely. And that concludes part one

618
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: of my conversation with Pastor Corey Brooks, and you do

619
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: not want to miss part two that's now available to

620
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: listen to. Its Corey's transformative work and Woodlawn is just

621
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 2: getting started. Together. Guys, we can change the country, and

622
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 2: it starts with you. I'll see in Part two,