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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. Twenty twenty five. As

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Speaker 3: the humans reckon a calendar Tonight, folks, we're exploring a mystery,

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Speaker 3: one that may be unfamiliar to many of us here

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Speaker 3: in these still somewhat United States, but doubtlessly ringing a

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Speaker 3: bell or our Canadian conspiracy realist. Oh my gosh, had

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Speaker 3: you guys heard of this one before we pitched it internally?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I was Roman somewhere around the Gulf of America. Gosh,

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Speaker 2: years ago.

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Speaker 4: Is that like the Gulf of Tonkin.

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Speaker 3: In that it's made up?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I got it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I remember. We somebody wrote us about

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Speaker 2: this years ago, and I think it's something that's been

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Speaker 2: flying under our radar, just as it had for years

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Speaker 2: before that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a twisted tale of intrigue, big business, bad deals,

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Speaker 3: a disappearance that remains unsolved today, and full disclosure, folks,

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Speaker 3: it's about a very pillish, uncool guy. The question is

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Speaker 3: what happened to Ambrose Small. And thank you to our

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Speaker 3: Canadian conspiracy realist up north and abroad who had written

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Speaker 3: to us about this before. But we talked often about

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Speaker 3: strange disappearances. It was much easier for someone to disappear

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Speaker 3: back in the day, with or without their consent. But

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Speaker 3: some of these cases, amid all the innumerable disappearances throughout history,

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Speaker 3: some of them still resonate and haunt people today. This

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Speaker 3: is a question that has been that has been thoroughly analyzed,

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Speaker 3: and as we'll see, no one as of yet has

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Speaker 3: proven what happened. No one has cracked the case. So

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Speaker 3: we're hoping that tonight, with your help, maybe we can

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Speaker 3: get a little closer to an answer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, only one hundred and four years ago. We're gonna

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Speaker 2: find these answers.

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Speaker 4: Right after a quick word from my sponsor.

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Speaker 3: You are the facts, all right, Ambrose Joseph Small eighteen

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Speaker 3: eighty six. That's when he's born. No one knows what's

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Speaker 3: going to happen to him? It's he's born in Bradford

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Speaker 3: in modern day on Ontario. Side note, didn't know this one,

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Speaker 3: you guys. Ontario used to just be called Canada West.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, that's so funny. Man in the town I

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Speaker 4: grew up, Augusta, right across the bridge in South Carolina,

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Speaker 4: it's just called North Augusta, which I always found very

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Speaker 4: dismissive to South Carolina.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. It also calls to mind things like West Virginia

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Speaker 3: and things like North and South Dakota. There could have

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Speaker 3: been other names.

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Speaker 4: I like to refer to them collectively as the Dakotas.

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Speaker 3: I call them the Carolinas if I don't know where

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Speaker 3: the town is, and I'm in a conversation, and I

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Speaker 3: know it's somewhere over there.

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Speaker 4: So by eighteen seventy six, the Small family had moved

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Speaker 4: to modern day Toronto, and by eighteen eighty Small's father

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Speaker 4: became the manager of a hotel called the Grand Hotel.

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Speaker 4: It must have been a fine place.

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Speaker 3: You know, burst of humility, a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: street level knowledge. Here the hotel is next to a

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Speaker 3: place called the Grand and Opera House, equally humble name.

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Speaker 4: There you go with the other.

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Speaker 2: Well, and it's actually very very cool, guys, because this

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Speaker 2: is a place where culture moved from the US into

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Speaker 2: uh into Canada, in parts of Canada where there really

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Speaker 2: was that thing that we talk about all the time,

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Speaker 2: the great export of the United States culture, and it's

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Speaker 2: moving north because as plays and other it's mostly plays

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Speaker 2: like stage plays.

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Speaker 3: Musicals maybe as well touring circuit stuff, some Vaudeville stuff.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was more of Vaudeville air in the golden

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Speaker 4: age of Broadway musicals. Yeah, mostly plays in Vaudeville's and

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Speaker 4: probably maybe some variety.

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Speaker 3: Shows all run out of New York to your point, Matt,

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Speaker 3: So now it's eighteen eighty four, Ambrose Small is still

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Speaker 3: a teen and he starts working at the bar of

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Speaker 3: this grand hotel. And while he's working at the bar,

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Speaker 3: he runs into, of course, a lot of locals. One

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Speaker 3: of those locals is a guy named Oliver B. Epperd

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Speaker 3: who is the manager of the nearby Grand Opera House,

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Speaker 3: and Oliver B. Shepherd, for one reason or another, really

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Speaker 3: digs and bro Small as a team.

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Speaker 4: So eventually he migrated just around the way to the

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Speaker 4: Grand Opera House, where he became an usher you know,

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Speaker 4: one of those folks that kindly shows you to your seat,

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Speaker 4: and quickly he kind of worked his way up the

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Speaker 4: ranks at the Grand Opera House and became the treasurer.

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Speaker 4: That's kind of a success story right there. That's a

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Speaker 4: pretty high position. He was generally thought of as a

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Speaker 4: pretty solid worker. Small was also from early on someone

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Speaker 4: who really made no secret about their ambitions. He was

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Speaker 4: always looking for a little bit of a side hustle.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, always in search of some extra cheddar. The kind

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Speaker 3: of guy who likes money so much that he gets

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Speaker 3: upset when other people have it. If we're going to

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Speaker 3: editorialize and profile a bit, we know that at this

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Speaker 3: point he was already participating in bookie activities, illegal book

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Speaker 3: making operations. A guy I love taking bets on horse races,

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Speaker 3: you know, business in the front, bookie.

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Speaker 4: In the back, betting on the ponies.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, let those ponies run. Got to you got to.

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Speaker 3: But he experienced tragedy as well as mother passed away

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Speaker 3: in eighteen eighty seven, and then in eighteen eighty nine,

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Speaker 3: you know, he had a falling out with Shepherd and

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Speaker 3: he left. Perhaps this was due to small sometimes prickly

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Speaker 3: personality perhaps it was due to his constant pursuit of power.

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Speaker 3: Like you'll see biographers who speculate that Small stab Shepherd

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Speaker 3: the man who had helped him in the back metaphorically,

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Speaker 3: not literally, one way or the other. Small ends up

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Speaker 3: going to work at the Toronto Opera House. So same

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Speaker 3: kind of thing, different brand name.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I went from Grand to Toronto because of whatever

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Speaker 2: was going on with this Shepherd character.

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Speaker 3: And he gets promoted there as well, at the Toronto

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Speaker 3: Opera House. And during this time this will be important later.

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Speaker 3: His father, Small's father, a guy named Daniel, marries Josephine Corman.

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Speaker 3: Josephine Corman comes from money. She's an heiress. She's the

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Speaker 3: daughter of a wealthy beer baron named Ignacious, which is

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Speaker 3: such a wealthy guy named.

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Speaker 2: And shout out to the Canadian Encyclopedia. How often do

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Speaker 2: we get to shout out those guys, that's for sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I just have some of the most I don't know

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Speaker 2: the best collected information about this case.

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Speaker 3: I would say they're one of the I would say

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Speaker 3: they're one of the best least biased sources online. So

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Speaker 3: you can read a lot of print books about this

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Speaker 3: investigating the mystery and about the life of Ambrose Small.

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Speaker 3: But often, and we say this with great respect, often

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Speaker 3: the authors are drawing toward their own conclusion what they

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Speaker 3: think happened, and the Canadian Encyclopedia newspapers at the time

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Speaker 3: they're taking wild swings, especially the newspapers in the era

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Speaker 3: of cutthroat muckraking press.

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Speaker 4: So Small kind of fought his way to the forefront

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Speaker 4: of the super competitive theater business there in Ontario, and

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Speaker 4: he eventually found a partnership with Detroit theater mogul Clark J. Whitney,

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Speaker 4: who was a major player in the Ontario theater circuit.

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Speaker 4: So when Whitney died in nineteen oh two, Small bought

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Speaker 4: up tons of theaters and communities across Ontario and least

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Speaker 4: others to kind of create a network of theaters. And

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Speaker 4: they all depended on him by his own design for

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Speaker 4: booking these shows, because he was the sole controller of

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Speaker 4: the kind of pathway that you mentioned, Matt, from New

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Speaker 4: York to Canada, the New York kind of theater syndicates.

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Speaker 4: I guess you could call them.

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Speaker 2: Well, and you may yourself. How does the manager at

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Speaker 2: the Toronto Opera House have enough scratch to buy all

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Speaker 2: of these properties, right, these are established businesses that cost

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Speaker 2: lots and lots of money, and he is doing that

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Speaker 2: because we mentioned he's a bookie. But you can only

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Speaker 2: imagine that there's other stuff going on in the background too,

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Speaker 2: where he's able to get enough capital to buy major establishments.

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Speaker 3: Excellent setup. Yeah. In nineteen o two, he marries the

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Speaker 3: younger sister of his stepmother, So technically he marries his

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Speaker 3: step aunt. And her name is Teresa Corman, And just

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Speaker 3: like Josephine Corman, this is the heiress of that beer

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Speaker 3: baron Ignacious.

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Speaker 2: Isn't sheilin younger step daughter or something?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, so still technically step aunt. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's what I'm saying. Like it's his stepmother's younger sister,

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Speaker 3: so technically, right, wouldn't that be his step aunt? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So they're combined financial assets. Ambrose Small's growing control of

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Speaker 3: the theater community there and maybe maybe he bet on

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Speaker 3: the right ponies. Combined with Teresa Corman's inheritance or her

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Speaker 3: assets from her family, they make the couple super wealthy.

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Speaker 3: But money is not always going to equate to happiness,

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Speaker 3: not every time. They're very different people, like she is

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Speaker 3: a polyglot, she is super into world travel. She's a philanthropist,

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Speaker 3: she volunteers everywhere.

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Speaker 4: And Small, on the other hand, is a philanderer.

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Speaker 3: And a gambler, like you said, a womanizer. He even

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Speaker 3: I don't know, he's a real pill. Which is interesting

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Speaker 3: about this case. He had a semi secret chamber built

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Speaker 3: in the Grand Opera House and it was for his

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Speaker 3: tryst with chorus girls. This is the kind of guy

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Speaker 3: that we're talking about in our early days of Hollywood episode.

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Speaker 3: This guy would literally have young women who wanted to

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Speaker 3: work with him and he would invite them to that

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Speaker 3: secret room for an interview.

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Speaker 4: Casting couch types stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Cool. It's interesting because his wife was such a you know,

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Speaker 4: lover of culture and you know, the finer things in life,

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Speaker 4: and like you said, very well traveled, and he seemed

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Speaker 4: to be very much a part of culture and importing

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Speaker 4: it to Canada. And it would seem like, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I didn't know the guy, but that he was more

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Speaker 4: concerned about the financial side of it than he was

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Speaker 4: you know, the beauty of the arts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is weird. According to some of the sources,

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Speaker 2: we found that secret room there in the Opera House

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Speaker 2: for the tryst chamber or whatever we want to call it.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 2: It isn't found at least according to some sources until

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Speaker 2: the investigation begins that we're going to explain to you

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Speaker 2: or we're going to talk about. But others it's like rumors, right,

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Speaker 2: that are just circulating around the office basically, and the

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Speaker 2: various offices of all of these opera houses and places

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Speaker 2: of performance. But the guy is definitely viewed. It would

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Speaker 2: seem ken according to some of the information that comes

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Speaker 2: out during the era of yellow journalism, that this guy

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Speaker 2: is a bit of a scoundrel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah again, a pill. It is an open secret, right,

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Speaker 3: It's something that his wife seems to be very much

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Speaker 3: aware of. Now. The small family, Teresa and Ambrosewiming, they

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Speaker 3: live in opulence. They have a very nice est state,

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Speaker 3: but they sleep in separate rooms and they appear to

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Speaker 3: only grow further apart as small pursues, you know, this gambling,

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Speaker 3: this philandering and success as an entertainment mogul. Eventually he

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Speaker 3: runs what we could rightly call an empire of thirty

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Speaker 3: four theaters half or outside of Ontario. So he's expanding.

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Speaker 3: Any star performer who wants to wants to stroll the

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Speaker 3: boards at his stage. No matter how popular they are.

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Speaker 3: This control of the market means they have to in

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Speaker 3: some way deal with Ambrose small and Small has a reputation,

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Speaker 3: he does it. He's not just ruthless and unscrupulous, which

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Speaker 3: happens a lot with moguls. He seems to take sadistic

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Speaker 3: joy in screwing people over. We got to talk about

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Speaker 3: the business contract thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's funny you mentioned the whole Golden

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Speaker 4: Age of Hollywood episode that we did in terms of

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Speaker 4: the casting couch. But his iron fisted grasp over this

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Speaker 4: market and also perhaps sadistic bent also has a lot

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Speaker 4: in common with the studio system of those days that

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Speaker 4: we talk about in the episode. So everyone thought the

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Speaker 4: Small wasn't just a scoundrel, as you mentioned, Ben, they

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Speaker 4: also knew that he took great pleasure and pride in

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Speaker 4: putting one over on just about anybody. He planted business

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Speaker 4: contracts with little kind of hidden clauses that he called jokers,

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Speaker 4: that essentially were ways of kind of hiding in plain

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Speaker 4: sight things that would benefit him and not benefit the

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Speaker 4: person signing the contract. He was also suspected of using

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Speaker 4: his influence to actually fix some of these horse races, yeah,

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Speaker 4: which was totally possible, just to be clear.

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Speaker 3: And also yeah, people called him at chiseler, which was

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Speaker 3: a big insult at the time. They called him at cheapskate.

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Speaker 3: They they did not like him. It reminds me of

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Speaker 3: that movie. It is an interesting comparison. It reminds me

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Speaker 3: of that film based on the real life event I

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00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,400
Speaker 3: want to see. It was a small town somewhere in

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Speaker 3: Texas where there was a known bully who eventually got

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Speaker 3: killed and everybody knew who killed him but refused to

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Speaker 3: go to the police.

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Speaker 4: Yep, movie is called Bully.

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Speaker 3: Oh it's a bully, ok. Larry Clark.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a gnarly film, not for the faint of heart.

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Speaker 4: It's it's pretty mean spirited.

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Speaker 3: Stumbled it to the answer. Yeah, this guy was unpopular.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people hated him. There's something mentioned. I

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Speaker 3: believe this isn't the Canadian encyclopedia. It's repeated in several

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Speaker 3: different places about a quote from a journalist in Toronto

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Speaker 3: at the time named Hector charles Worth. Hector Charlesworth knows

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Speaker 3: small personally, and in nineteen twenty eight, after the events

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Speaker 3: that we're about to really explore, here the stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want, you know. Hector comes out with a book

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Speaker 3: called More Candid Chronicles and he says, if I heard once,

261
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Speaker 3: I heard a score of times the ominous words. Somebody

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Speaker 3: will get to Amby someday.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: They called him Amby as a nickname for Ambrose. I

265
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Speaker 3: don't know if he liked the nickname Amby. Even his

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Speaker 3: longtime assistants did not care for him. Guy named John

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Speaker 3: Dody Jack to his friends, worked for this guy for years,

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Speaker 3: and he also seemed to hate the dude, which will

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Speaker 3: be important later.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about movie theaters. These are performance arts theaters,

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Speaker 2: many of the ones that Small has taken over and

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Speaker 2: is now running, and he has such control over them.

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Speaker 2: As we stated before, it's about the players, the actual

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Speaker 2: human beings that are going to get on stage. I

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Speaker 2: assume also it's the players who are going to be

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Speaker 2: underneath the stage, maybe the musicians. Right, He probably is

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Speaker 2: exerting control over everybody that is going to take part

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Speaker 2: in any kind of performance in these venues. And we're

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Speaker 2: talking thirty four or more of them as well, all

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Speaker 2: across Toronto in different parts of Canada. In eighteen ninety six,

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Speaker 2: the First movie theater shows up in Toronto. Now that

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Speaker 2: is a while ago, right, If if we're following through

283
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Speaker 2: the timeline here, which we're in, I guess we're in

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Speaker 2: what the nineteen teens at this point something like that.

285
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Speaker 2: Around this time, the concept of movie theaters is a

286
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Speaker 2: threat to his business and his way of life, and

287
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Speaker 2: it's kind of been looming in the background. But it's

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Speaker 2: been this technology that has been advancing pretty quickly and

289
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Speaker 2: growing a lot, especially to the south. Right in the

290
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Speaker 2: United States, movie theaters are becoming the thing, and as

291
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Speaker 2: they are now proliferating across Canada. Small things. Maybe there's

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Speaker 2: something else I need to do here, Maybe there's a

293
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,360
Speaker 2: pivot I can make to either cash out or change

294
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Speaker 2: my wealth, change the way I make my wealth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. To be clear, we don't have a sense

296
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Speaker 3: that this guy was necessarily a creative participant in the

297
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Speaker 3: entertainment industry. Like he was not writing his own plays, right,

298
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Speaker 3: he was not doing a Kevin Costner thing where he

299
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 3: directs and stars and stuff. He is about the money.

300
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,359
Speaker 3: So whatever can accelerate his personal wealth is what he

301
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,639
Speaker 3: will look into. The rise of motion pictures sends live

302
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,040
Speaker 3: theater into decline, and so it comes to pass. In

303
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,719
Speaker 3: nineteen nineteen, Small decides to exit the business. He's going

304
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Speaker 3: to sell out. You know, this is like if you

305
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 3: run AMC and you decide to sell AMC. And so

306
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,919
Speaker 3: he says, I'm going to sell my theater Empire to

307
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 3: a competing force, trans Canada Theaters Limited over in Montreal.

308
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,920
Speaker 3: And he says, I got to get the right price, though,

309
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,359
Speaker 3: I got to get my big So he sells. In

310
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 3: nineteen nineteen, he strikes a deal to sell off his

311
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 3: entire business for one point the US equivalent of one

312
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,720
Speaker 3: point seven million dollars one million dollars up front, the

313
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,040
Speaker 3: other seven hundred thousand in installments over time. If we

314
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 3: want to pull a ridiculous history card and do a

315
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 3: little inflation calculator, that is thirty million, eight hundred and

316
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,600
Speaker 3: twenty four thousand, nine hundred and thirty dollars and sixty

317
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,680
Speaker 3: four cents in twenty twenty four money.

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Speaker 4: Oof, my goodness, that is a lot of cash. Then

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Speaker 4: on the first of December nineteen nineteen, at the law

320
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Speaker 4: offices of Osler, Hoskin and Harcourt in the Dominion Bank

321
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Speaker 4: building on King Street, Small, Theresa and their attorney E. W. M.

322
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 4: Flock met Trans Canada Theaters representative William Shaughnessy. It's a

323
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,880
Speaker 4: great theater man name to sign over those theaters. They

324
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,879
Speaker 4: got a check for a million dollars. The check was

325
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,000
Speaker 4: deposited at that bank Dominion the next morning, perhaps by

326
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 4: Small but also possibly by Teresa. Then on December twod

327
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Speaker 4: he vanished.

328
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Speaker 3: So what happened? We'll dive into it after a word

329
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 3: from our sponsor, here's river did's increase to this day?

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Speaker 3: No one knows, at least by which we mean, no

331
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 3: one has an official solution to the case. Again, as

332
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 3: I stated earlier, there are a lot of opinions right.

333
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:03,640
Speaker 3: There are things that initial investigators were convinced would solve

334
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 3: the case. There are things that later authors and researchers

335
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 3: are convinced they have discovered. We want to be fair

336
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,400
Speaker 3: to all of them. But you'll see what we mean

337
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 3: when we delve into the theories. So maybe maybe we

338
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 3: step it back forensically into the day of the disappearance

339
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,919
Speaker 3: December second, nineteen nineteen. Now no one is one hundred

340
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,200
Speaker 3: percent sure of the exact timeline here, and honestly that's

341
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 3: typical for cases of this nature. We know that after

342
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 3: making this sale after getting the initial million dollars just

343
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 3: crazy money. Ambrose small, however distant he and his spouse

344
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 3: may have been. He made some purchases, ostensibly for her,

345
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 3: some kind of celebratory gifts. He bought her jewelry, a

346
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,480
Speaker 3: fur coat, a Cadillac that's pretty nuts. And then he

347
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,919
Speaker 3: had lunch with the guy who mentioned earlier in Noel Flock,

348
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 3: and with his wife Teresa, and he walked Esa to

349
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 3: a nearby orphan because she regularly volunteered at this orphanage.

350
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,399
Speaker 3: And then he went back to his office with his

351
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,679
Speaker 3: buddy Flock. They were having a meeting and they planned

352
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,880
Speaker 3: to get out around five point thirty, at which point

353
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 3: they would maybe go and meet up for dinner. Flock

354
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 3: had a train to catch to London. Side note for

355
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 3: US Yankees in the crowd, that's London, Ontario. If anybody's wondering, WHOA,

356
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 3: that's amazing a train from Canada to London. We thought

357
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 3: so too, but it's not. So we know then that

358
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 3: Flock is gone. He's off to London, Ontario, and his

359
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 3: train leaves at six pm, so he leaves at five

360
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 3: point thirty, which makes him the last person that we

361
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 3: can confirm on record saw Ambrose small. After that, the

362
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 3: trail runs cold, or the trail is actually cold, but

363
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 3: no one knows about it for two weeks. His own

364
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,479
Speaker 3: family does not report him missing until two weeks have passed.

365
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 3: It's not till December sixteenth, And I got to ask you, guys,

366
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 3: what's the implication there? Does his wife think he's just

367
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 3: off with a mistress. Maybe do a lot of associates

368
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 3: just say, hey, he made it, you know, he got

369
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 3: the golden goose. He's kicking back as a newly minted millionaire.

370
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 3: Or did the people who not like him, were they

371
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 3: just happy not to hear from him.

372
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 2: It's one of two things. Either his wife was aware

373
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: that he does this kind of thing, especially when he's

374
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 2: got a windfall, goes and spends some of it and

375
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 2: spends his time with other women, if not his mistress,

376
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 2: because he did have one longtime mistress that his wife

377
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 2: was aware of, unfortunately, because she had found some letters

378
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 2: and some other things from that specific person. But she

379
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 2: knew he spent his time with other women, and she

380
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 2: knew that he liked to gamble and he liked to

381
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: be away, So maybe she just thought he was out

382
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 2: of town doing his thing, and she was either embarrassed

383
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 2: about that or has just gotten so used to that

384
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 2: that that's just what she deals with, right right.

385
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 4: I think she was even aware of his casting couch situation. Yes,

386
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 4: whether it was completely against her will or whether they

387
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 4: had some sort of understanding or whatever, I think is

388
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 4: maybe not fully clear. But she was aware of his

389
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 4: patterns and didn't report him missing to the police because

390
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 4: just figured he was out catting around.

391
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: Or or she specifically didn't talk about him and his

392
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 2: disappearance for two weeks because stuff had to get done, okay.

393
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,479
Speaker 3: Which is yeah, like as always saying earlier, there are

394
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 3: a lot of places there, there are a lot of

395
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 3: possibilities that might not involve her as a culprit, right,

396
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 3: we have to remember this, Ley's been through a pretty

397
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 3: tough marriage. I do think it's worth noting that when

398
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 3: investigators do ask her when the family goes public on

399
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 3: sixteenth of December nineteen nineteen, investigators do ask Teresa Small

400
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: about this, and she says she had not reported his

401
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: disappearance because she wanted to avoid a scandal. She had

402
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 3: this specific statement that is in the papers of the time.

403
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 3: It's quoted in every source pretty much. She says, I

404
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 3: believe my Ambi is in the hands of a designing

405
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 3: woman somewhere and will come back. And this just a

406
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 3: side note for us here in the US. This finally

407
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 3: explains to me the double meaning, the double entendre of

408
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 3: that sitcom from back in the day designing women, because

409
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 3: they were a crew of interior designers or.

410
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 5: But they were also you know, the amorous Yes, but

411
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 5: that's just as I was saying earlier, I think this

412
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 5: is potentially a statement you would say if you're trying

413
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 5: to cover your tracks because maybe you did something wrong.

414
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, and we're taking people at their word,

415
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: that's all. That's all I was saying.

416
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'm just saying that these are different possibilities,

417
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 3: man like, like there's no proof, there's no smoking gun.

418
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 3: Maybe she was waiting for a two week time window.

419
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 3: But the disappearance does go public. And when it goes public,

420
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 3: what does what does Teresa Small do? She offers a reward.

421
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 4: Yes, five hundred dollars I believe, which at the time

422
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 4: would have been no small reward. I guess we better

423
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 4: inflation calculator that too. While we're at it.

424
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 3: Oh, yes, sir, that is going to five hundred dollars

425
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 3: US equivalency in nineteen nineteen, Well would be nine thousand,

426
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 3: sixty six dollars and sixteen cents in twenty twenty four.

427
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 4: Well, she should have gone for an even five oh

428
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 4: four to make it an even ten grand and twenty

429
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 4: twenty four numbers. You know what was she thinking? No,

430
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 4: but this was a big deal. This was the kind

431
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 4: of money that would get things done. Yeah.

432
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is not for returning him, right, this

433
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 3: is information on his whereabouts. In addition to the five

434
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 3: hundred dollars reward. I believe she has missing persons flyers

435
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 3: distributed across Canada and across the United States. And the

436
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 3: investigators welcome this. They need the help. Honestly, they're flummoxed.

437
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 3: Everything they're looking at for this guy, at least again,

438
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: as you were saying, according to what the investigators say,

439
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: according to their word, is a dead end. He has

440
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 3: im packed any suitcases, by which they mean none of

441
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: the suitcases he previously possessed are missing. It doesn't seem

442
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 3: like he pulled that million dollars out of the bank.

443
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 3: There's no track record or no trail, I should say

444
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 3: of him using a check to pay for a train

445
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: ticket or to get a hotel somewhere. They go to

446
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: the usual spots he hangs out at, including we can

447
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 3: only imagine some of his gambling connections. He's not there.

448
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 3: No one there is speaking to the police. And I guess,

449
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 3: to be fair, the police burst into a gambling hall

450
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 3: or a den of iniquity, people aren't going to say, oh, yeah, yeah,

451
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 3: that guy was here. They're just not going to talk

452
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 3: to the authorities in general.

453
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: Well, especially if it's the big spender of that establishment. Right,

454
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: if it's one of the bosses that hangs out of

455
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: that establishment, you're never going to speak a word about

456
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 2: that person and what they're doing.

457
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 4: It's just bad business.

458
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, you got to reward your loyal customers, right, they do.

459
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 3: To that note about the longtime mistress, we know of,

460
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 3: authorities reach out to Clara Smith. Clara Smith is living

461
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 3: in Minneapolis in nineteen nineteen, and she says, look, I

462
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 3: don't know what happened to Aby. I'm over here in Minneapolis,

463
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 3: and they could prove that she was there, so maybe

464
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 3: did they surveil her, right, maybe he was hiding out

465
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 3: or something like that. That's a valid question at this point, Well.

466
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 4: This dude is a serious public figure in this scene

467
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 4: at this point, correct. I mean he is a player,

468
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 4: so he's known, and this would not have gone unnoticed.

469
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 4: This was a pretty big news item.

470
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the big thing to notice here in this story.

471
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: Nothing is missing besides the man. It's not as though

472
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 2: the money was taken out, right. He wasn't walking around

473
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 2: with a million dollars. He wasn't even walking around with

474
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 2: a couple hundred thousand dollars. He was just gone.

475
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 3: Vanish, as if into thin air. Look, this is to

476
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 3: the point you were making. This is such a public figure.

477
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 3: This is kind of like Harvey Weinstein going missing. Even

478
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: though his I'm going to say it, doubtlessly he coerced

479
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 3: some women, right, even though that may not be front

480
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 3: of mind for the public sphere or the press at

481
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 3: the time. It's unescapable or inescapable reality. All sorts of

482
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 3: rumors pop up. Eventually, Teresa Small increases the reward for

483
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: information to fifty thousand dollars if found alive. Fifteen thousand

484
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 3: just for the body of Ambrose Small. The story goes global.

485
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: This guy's the Elvis Presley of his time, or the

486
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 3: Bigfoot if you like. There are all sorts of people

487
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: claiming that they have seen him. People were claiming they

488
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: were using their psychic powers or pseudo scientific powers to

489
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 3: be the last hope to find this guy, and none

490
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 3: of these things worked. Do we want to talk about

491
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: Arthur Conan Doyle.

492
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 4: He shows up in this Oh yes, mister Sherlock Holmes himself.

493
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just a side note. You can read more

494
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: about it. But he's reporters in again this muckraking era

495
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 3: of newspapers. They reach out to other celebrities. This becomes

496
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 3: a celebrity story and they say, hey, will you help

497
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 3: the Canadian police find Ambrose small.

498
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 4: Right, And that included a Viennese criminologist by the name

499
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 4: of mac Similian A. Langsner. He had a method that

500
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 4: I'm with pat or trademarked or whatever, but that's a

501
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 4: pretty cool name. It's called the thought wave system that

502
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 4: he believed could help locate this person. It sounds like

503
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 4: a bit of quackery to me. Yeah.

504
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: The thought wave system, whatever the efficacy may be, did

505
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: not work in this regard. And, as often happens in

506
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: a case of this magnitude, multiple people from across Canada

507
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: and the US and later the world started claiming to

508
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 3: have seen Small And some of these were claims made

509
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: in good faith for sure, some were made for attention,

510
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: all were apparently incorrect. There were also people claiming that

511
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 3: they were in fact Ambro Small. They were coming forward.

512
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 3: It maybe was I don't know, maybe it was all

513
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: the money on the line. What do you guys think

514
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 3: had to be I mean.

515
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 4: Like I said that five hundred bucks and you know

516
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 4: it was enough to get stuff done. What I'm saying

517
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 4: is like this would have been a massive motivator, all

518
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 4: of these top people showing up trying to get on

519
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 4: the publicity wagon. It just seems like if something was

520
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 4: going to be found, that there was something out there

521
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 4: at clue of any kind, that it would have turned up. Well.

522
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and once it became fifty thousand dollars going on,

523
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: that's like lobbery.

524
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 4: And that five hundred turning into fifty thousand, five hundred

525
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 4: already being a mega respectable reward. You would think that

526
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 4: if there was something out there to be found, with

527
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 4: all of these top people coming in to jump on

528
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 4: the publicity wagon, it was going to be found.

529
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were so many false claims, including people who

530
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: said I am Ambrose small, very like I am Spartacus.

531
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 3: They eventually the Attorney General keeps a folder for all

532
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 3: these reports they don't take seriously, and they called it

533
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 3: letters from cranks, Comma, et cetera. This search is initially, yes,

534
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 3: aided by newspapers, but I think we can make a

535
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 3: strong argument it's only partially aided by newspapers. In this

536
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 3: mad rush to grab headlines to grab attention, just like

537
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: a precedent of social media today, there were a lot

538
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 3: of unscrupulous public They were super happy to print any

539
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: and all outrageous claims because if you got the right headline,

540
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: you sold the paper and they bought that instead of

541
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 3: you know, your competitor's news outfit. So newspaper readers also

542
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 3: got Can we talk about the cryptogram? I'm still so

543
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 3: confused about this. How would we pronounce this? Would it

544
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 3: be one p eb eighty six.

545
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 4: And sounds like an aim handle?

546
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: You got no idea?

547
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 3: This is I can't remember if this mentioned in every source,

548
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 3: but in the Toronto Star if you if you look

549
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: at their reporting of this, apparently there was this cryptogram

550
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 3: that was released to newspaper readers and people were invited

551
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 3: to analyze it, and so a bunch of people tried

552
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: to crack the cipher and the going public opinion was

553
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 3: that this meant Ambrose Small was alive, but he was

554
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 3: trapped in a limehouse kill there a place called Brampton Junction,

555
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 3: and he was suffocating as you read this paper to.

556
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 4: The cryptogram was just something that was sent by some

557
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 4: kind of crank that I was just trying to get

558
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 4: some attention.

559
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 3: There's a book that I'm hoping to read by Katie Dobbs,

560
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 3: who wrote for the Toronto Star. It will hopefully have

561
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 3: more about the cryptogram, but we're honestly going to have

562
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 3: to dig into that.

563
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 4: One.

564
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: Book's called The Missing Millionaire, The True Story of Ambrose Small.

565
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and in full disclosure. I don't think any of

566
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 3: us have read that in full yet.

567
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: Okay, not yet.

568
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 3: So this cryptogram spelled spelled like it sounds, it leads

569
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 3: nowhere and this is where we get to. I don't

570
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: know if we want to talk about some of the

571
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 3: weird alleged sightings. One that stands out is the work

572
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: of a private detective named John J. Brothy And pardon

573
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 3: my cat there, everybody say hey to doctor.

574
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 4: Vankmin Hey, doctor V. Looking good.

575
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 3: So this guy brought He says, Look, I found Small

576
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: and I found him doing poorly as they would say

577
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 3: at the time. This is nineteen twenty one. He says,

578
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 3: this guy, the real Ambrose Small, was a victim of

579
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 3: a hit and run in Des Moines, Iowa. And he

580
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 3: was dropped off by the person who had hit him.

581
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 3: So someone hit this guy in the road and then

582
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 3: they dropped him off and left. And this PI says

583
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 3: Small or the guy he believes as small as a

584
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 3: gunshot wound in his neck. He's got a crazy concussion

585
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: and both his legs have been amputated.

586
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, what could that have been from? Was he

587
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: in war? Did he hop a train incorrectly?

588
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 4: Yes, I've never heard that put quite like that, Matt,

589
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 4: I love it.

590
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 3: And apparently this guy is non responsive, at least nonverbal

591
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 3: for three weeks, so the better part of a month.

592
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 3: And when he finds speaks up, he says, I am

593
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,959
Speaker 3: John Dowdy. I came here from Obaha. That is all

594
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 3: I remember. Oh yeah, we remember though the name John

595
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 3: Dowdy or Jack to his friends, the longtime assistant slash

596
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: secretary of Ambrose.

597
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: Small oh, James, right, yeah.

598
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 3: James, that's correct. Sorry, I just called him Jack because

599
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 3: we're friends.

600
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 4: Of course, so we should hold onto this. Put a

601
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 4: pin in this fact for a little later, and we'll

602
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 4: see as well why this couldn't possibly have been the truth.

603
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 4: So moving forward in the timeline, the private investigator claimed

604
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 4: he showed this this man very unfortunate case, a photograph

605
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 4: of Ambrose Small, and the man allegedly replied, yes, that

606
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 4: is me.

607
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: Okay, we'll switch of the story.

608
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 4: There's like a Memento man type situation, you know.

609
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry, I'm editorializing when I'm pointing that out. The

610
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 3: guy does get taken into custody in Des Moines, we

611
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 3: know that for sure, but we also know from that

612
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 3: point the trail falls cold. All we can assume is

613
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: that this very troubled individual was not in fact the

614
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 3: missing theater Agne. Because there's no other real reporting about them,

615
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: and despite all of this kerfuffle, this bruhaha, no one

616
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: can find the actual Ambrose Small. None of the people

617
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: claiming to be Ambrose Small turned out to be Ambrose Prime. Further,

618
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 3: no one can find a solid lead or a clue

619
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 3: that goes anywhere. And because there are no solid leads

620
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 3: because there are no solid clues. There are these wild rumors, theories, speculation,

621
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 3: these people. As I mentioned, I think I keep mentioning

622
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: it too much, but I just can't imagine. I have

623
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 3: a difficult time imagining deciding to go to the media

624
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 3: or to police and saying that you are the missing person.

625
00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 3: It reminds me a little bit of those unscrupulos as

626
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 3: crazy scams where people would say they were a missing

627
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 3: kid would be gone for years. You know. Also, maybe

628
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,479
Speaker 3: there's mental instability involved, and maybe some people just begin

629
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: to believe that they are, in fact Ambrose Small. That's

630
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 3: the magnitude of this case.

631
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 2: Well, Ambrose is still missing, but the question remains, was

632
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 2: there foul play? We'll return after a word from our

633
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: sponsor and explore that very thought.

634
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 4: And we're back. So why don't we start by jumping

635
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 4: into some theories and a handful of suspects. Theory number

636
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 4: one we've alluded to quite a few times already, and

637
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 4: certainly seems credible that Small ran off with one of

638
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 4: his many lady friends paramoors. Unfortunately, each lead in that

639
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 4: particular genre turned out to not hold water. If he

640
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 4: did leave with one of his ladies was someone completely

641
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:06,720
Speaker 4: unknown or unsuspected to police. In addition to Small's friends,

642
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 4: quote unquote, his circle of associates, let's call them.

643
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm calling circle of associates because I'm not sure

644
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 3: if they would consider each other friends, you know what

645
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 3: I mean, based on the infamy of his business dealings.

646
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 3: The second theory is murder by employee, the guy we've

647
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 3: mentioned before, James Jack Doty, who I'm mistakenly called John

648
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,439
Speaker 3: a second ago, but we introduced him at the top.

649
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 3: He was their primary suspect. He's the first person they

650
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 3: look at because Dottie has worked with Small for years,

651
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 3: and Dottie is often complaining to his friends, because he

652
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 3: does have friends. He's complaining about his salary. He says,

653
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 3: my salary is let me put it in an extremely

654
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 3: diplomatic way. He tells people his salary is insufficient. And

655
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: he makes something like I want to say, forty bucks

656
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 3: a week, forty three something like that.

657
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and he does a lot of work, a

658
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: guy who makes a lot of money, and he likely

659
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 2: watches his boss do all kinds of unscrupulous things, knowing

660
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 2: that he's making money in other ways. And he still

661
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 2: gets paid that much.

662
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's feeling like a dog's body, which is

663
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 3: just a fancy word for pretty much a servant or

664
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 3: a man of all needs, you know, like a valet,

665
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 3: a secretary. He's a fixer, and he feels unappreciated, and

666
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 3: you know, everybody feels unappreciated at some point. But this

667
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 3: went on for years for this guy. And initially the police,

668
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 3: well they can't get Jack's opinion because Jack disappears pretty

669
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: much right after Ambrose is gone.

670
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 2: Uh oh, that seems suspicious.

671
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, not the best thing to do. Really.

672
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: Well, Well, he just went on vacation, just like Ambrose.

673
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: Right, sure, why not? And when he went on vacation,

674
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: he took a lot more money than Ambrose appeared to take,

675
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 3: because Dowdy made off with the equivalent of one hundred

676
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 3: thousand to one hundred and five thousand US dollars worth

677
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 3: of victory bonds from the Ambrose small safety deposit over

678
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 3: at Dominion Bank, which you mentioned earlier.

679
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: Nor is this World War One victory bonds?

680
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: Stealing victory bonds? That feels I mean, I guess it

681
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 3: was a different time, you know what I mean?

682
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 2: Now, Hold on, guys, correct me if I'm wrong here.

683
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: Those victory bonds. Let's say Daughtry. It's such a weird

684
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,240
Speaker 2: doug h t Y Dotty.

685
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 3: Don't you keep saying Dotty or dough Yeah.

686
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 2: Sorry, there's another person in the story like Doughty or

687
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: it's very close and my brain keeps like smashing them together.

688
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 2: But this guy takes these victory bonds, right, Those bonds

689
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 2: have to mature before you can cash them out, right,

690
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: or maybe you can cash them out. They're just not

691
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: worth what they would be.

692
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 3: They haven't matured.

693
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I guess you would just hold on to

694
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: them and is a long game.

695
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 3: Or maybe he thought it was different from just taking cash.

696
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 3: Or maybe he opened the safety deposit box because he

697
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 3: did have access to it and just took what he found.

698
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 3: That might be a maybe more opportunistic. But this is

699
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 3: our second disappearance, and in the wake of the second disappearance,

700
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: investigators learn more troubling stuff about Jack. According to what

701
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 3: are loosely called informants, Jack had multiple times spoken of

702
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 3: what it would be like if he kidnapped or murdered

703
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 3: Ambrose small Now where they just mad at each other

704
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 3: after a business dealing. Was he, you know, rubbed raw

705
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: about something and said I wish I could just you know,

706
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: strangle this guy or something, or did he have an

707
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 3: actual plan? Either way, it doesn't look great. He's a

708
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 3: person of interest. You have to talk to him, definitely.

709
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 3: He's a guy you need to reach out and touch exactly,

710
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 3: and anyone could get touched, right. We know that's for

711
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 3: sure in this case. Because the law does catch up

712
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 3: to Jack. He's not in London, Ontario, he's not in Toronto.

713
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 3: He is arrested in Oregon on charges of theft and

714
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 3: conspiracy to kidnap Small, but not on murder, just to you.

715
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: Know, hang on to him for a while, as he

716
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 2: had said earlier, which again, don't say that stuff out loud, please.

717
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 4: The kidnapping charges were eventually dropped because of lack of evidence,

718
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 4: and he wasn't able to be charged with the murder

719
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 4: because no one had confirmed Small's death in the first place.

720
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 4: He was still simply missing.

721
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he went away for six years. I want

722
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 3: to say he was extradited to Canada. Again, a crime solved.

723
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 3: That's a good thing, the theft of the bonds. But

724
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 3: this does not solve the disappearance. And police become convinced

725
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 3: over the course of their investigation that Jack could not

726
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 3: have done this. The Jack is not the prime mover

727
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 3: of Ambrose Small's disappearance, which leads us to the third theory.

728
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's the one's closest to you who betray you. Right.

729
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 3: What if his family did it? What about his wife? Right?

730
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 3: And they're what seems to be, by many accounts, an

731
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 3: unhappy marriage. Ambrose Small has sisters, Gertrude and Florence. They

732
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 3: are the initial proponents who say, we think our sister

733
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 3: in law pay to have our brother killed.

734
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: It's kind of whoa whoa, I.

735
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 3: Mean awkward Thanksgiving labor for sure.

736
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's one of the primary things in any investigation.

737
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: Who benefits from this person no longer being here or

738
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 2: from this person being dead? Right? The primary beneficiary in

739
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: this situation would be the spouse because all of that

740
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 2: money just got deposited into their accounts, right, A million

741
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: dollar check got deposited and then he goes missing immediately afterwards.

742
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 2: That's it's just suspicious. And if this person, this other

743
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: person Jack high tailed it with a bunch of money

744
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 2: as well that was also his, that's weird. It does

745
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 2: make you wonder if it wasn't some kind of maybe

746
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 2: a combo meal.

747
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, because Jack doubtlessly knew Teresa. Right, Yeah, that's

748
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 3: inescapable and it's proven. Yeah, Gertrude and Florence are convinced that,

749
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 3: or they are convinced enough. They clearly seem to believe

750
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 3: this enough that they pony up some of their own

751
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 3: funds and they hire a private detective named Patrick Sullivan.

752
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 3: Patrick Sullivan is solid at his detective work, we could argue,

753
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 3: but he's even better at getting press. He loves pr

754
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 3: a good headline. He does not find any trace of

755
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 3: Ambrose Small that we know of. But along the way,

756
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 3: he's talking to every reporter that he can put get

757
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 3: on the horn, you know, everybody he can button a

758
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 3: hole into talking about this, and he's publishing in these tabloids,

759
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 3: in these what we call yellow journalist rags, where he's

760
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 3: accusing multiple people. Sometimes he's saying, well, it might be

761
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 3: the Catholic church who Adam kidnapped because they hate theater

762
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 3: or whatever, or the reason the police can't find this

763
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 3: guy is because the police killed him and they're pretending

764
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 3: to look for him and now they're covering it up.

765
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 3: So this is the kind of stuff you see in

766
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of talk shows or different even

767
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 3: podcasts today, that kind of speculation. None of it led anywhere, Oh.

768
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the way he talked about it, he ended

769
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 2: up in a bunch of lawsuits himself, a bunch of libel,

770
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: obscenities stuff that he trouble for it, because again, that

771
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 2: type of writing in papers was so common, but the

772
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: law was catching up on. This is what happens when

773
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 2: you say clearly false things in newspapers about public folks

774
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: or the Catholic church.

775
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 3: Right right, which was a big deal then and still

776
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 3: is a big deal today. And it's similar to the

777
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 3: earlier investigation of the assistant. The police eventually say, all right,

778
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 3: Teresa's small didn't have it in her character right to

779
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: murder her husband herself, but we are still concerned she

780
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 3: may have hired some unseemly gents to do the.

781
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 4: Deed, which certainly seems in line with her station, you know,

782
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 4: I mean, being a moneyed and cultured person certainly wouldn't

783
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 4: be the one to wield the knife herself. And probably,

784
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 4: you know, even if she didn't know unscrupulous characters directly,

785
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 4: there's a guy for that, you know, there's people around.

786
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 4: If you're powerful and have enough money to spend, you

787
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 4: can find someone who will help you, the right people

788
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:01,479
Speaker 4: to do the job.

789
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 3: You'll know someone who knows someone. Yes, yeah, and there.

790
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 3: This is a serious thing. There's a valid line of questioning. Still,

791
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 3: after investigation, law enforcement says, we don't think it's her.

792
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 3: She is never convicted of any crime related to the

793
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 3: disappearance of Ambrose Small, which leads us to our fourth theory,

794
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: back to the racetrack.

795
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 4: That's right, what if Small, who was famously a philandering

796
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 4: pill and a degenerate gambler, And finally, you know made

797
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 4: enemies are the wrong people. Let's not forget that newspaper

798
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 4: writer quote was saying, one day someone's gonna get amby,

799
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 4: whether it be a business partner, someone he had wronged financially.

800
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 4: More likely, though, once you get into the unseemly world

801
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 4: of professional betting and bookmaking, that's when people will actually

802
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 4: come for you, and maybe you know, decap you to start,

803
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 4: give you a little bit of time, but then if

804
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 4: you don't pay its curtains.

805
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 2: I've seen peaky blinders world, just like.

806
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 3: Wearing the hat. Now we're big fans.

807
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,439
Speaker 2: Exactly, but The whole point is like that it could

808
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: be anybody in that world, because we already stated at

809
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 2: the top there he was using his wealth and influence

810
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 2: in that world to fix racing. So if somebody, the

811
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: wrong person loses enough money, uh, in one of those scenarios,

812
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: you could have a real problem on your hands. And

813
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 2: if you make enemies of the wrong folks in that

814
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: realm uh. We've mentioned before how expensive it is to

815
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 2: keep horses and to train horses to race like that

816
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: and to you know, be in that world. It is expensive.

817
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 4: Not to mention the fact that he was capable of

818
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 4: fixing these races, which I don't even fully then you

819
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 4: mentioned is doable. I guess it would have to do

820
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 4: with injuring a horse or something, or having a jockey

821
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 4: that was, you know, on your payroll who perhaps you

822
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 4: know hold back is that the idea.

823
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 2: Get that horse through the jockey.

824
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 4: That makes it a little more sense. But what if

825
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 4: he fixed the wrong race and you know it, it

826
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 4: deprived somebody of some serious money, Even if it wasn't

827
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 4: him owing money, you know that that could have happened

828
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 4: as well.

829
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 3: Or what if you just what if you just betrayed

830
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 3: somebody else in the entertainment business, and I'm also very powerful.

831
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 3: These things could happen. The reason we include this speculation

832
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 3: with no hard proof is because it is possible. It's

833
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 3: it's very possible. We know that similar situations have occurred

834
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 3: in the past. So could he have could he have

835
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 3: just pushed the envelope too far and gone off the

836
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 3: deep end, like literally murdered and tossed away in a

837
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 3: ravine somewhere for gambling debts, Or could someone have thought,

838
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 3: you know, this guy screwed me over so much, I'm

839
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 3: not going to let him have a happy ending with

840
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 3: his one point seven million dollars, right, And you know then,

841
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 3: as now, law enforcement does often have a very difficult

842
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 3: time investigating the real powerful people. And the really powerful

843
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: people aren't the ones cavorting on stage, right, The really

844
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 3: powerful people are the ones who owned the stage. Or

845
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 3: what's that old Chris Rock quote about rich versus wealthy,

846
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 3: Like the star athlete and your favorite sports team is rich,

847
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 3: but the guy who signs his checks is wealthy. So

848
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 3: the idea then would be that maybe law enforcement got stonewalls.

849
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 3: You know, maybe there was some kind of some kind

850
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 3: of cover up, some kind of conspiracy from the wrong

851
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 3: person in the world of gambling or organized crime, or

852
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 3: even the world of entertainment. But there's the fifth theory,

853
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,280
Speaker 3: which may be a little happier, maybe a little Shawshank

854
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 3: redemption esque. What a small squirreled away another nest egg

855
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 3: of money that no one knew about, and he skipped down,

856
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, It was easier to skip

857
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 3: town back then. We just shave your mustache or whatever.

858
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 4: I wanted a fresh star. He was gonna live a

859
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 4: new life where he wasn't a total jerk. Doubtful.

860
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 3: Maybe people can turn over a new leaf. I mean

861
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 3: that one's possible, but I don't know if it fits

862
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 3: what we know about his psychological profile. It's a guy

863
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 3: who loves money, right, loves money. What would compel you

864
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 3: to willingly leave a million dollars and the chance of

865
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 3: another seven hundred thousand dollars.

866
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 2: Behind unless he had more money, like black market money

867
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 2: squirreled away somewhere else. I mean, that's really the only reason, right,

868
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: And maybe he would feel okay about leaving his wife

869
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 2: that large sum of money that's going to continue. There's

870
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 2: another well, at the time, the equivalent of seven hundred

871
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: thousand dollars that would be doled out to her over

872
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 2: the course of however, many years right to that deal.

873
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 2: So my wife is all set. Now I've got all

874
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 2: this other money that's way more actually, and I'm going

875
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 2: to go do my thing. I can imagine that. Yeah, ye.

876
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 3: Possibly. The think is none of these theories have been

877
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 3: conclusively proven even now in twenty Oh my gosh, you guys,

878
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 3: I did it. I put twenty twenty four instead of

879
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five.

880
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's okay, it happens.

881
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 3: Has that happened to you guys? Yet?

882
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, for sure, there wasn't. The Supreme Court in all,

883
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court of Ontario at least.

884
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nineteen twenty three, time passes, they say, okay,

885
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 3: for legal purposes, we're gonna have to say it. We're

886
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 3: going to call it he is dead, which means that

887
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 3: we will enact his will as it stands on record,

888
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 3: and the will leaves most of his estate to his wife,

889
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 3: Teresa Small. Fast forward to nineteen thirty five. Again, never

890
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 3: convicted of anything, she passes away.

891
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 4: After the estate was rated for all those back taxes

892
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 4: that were owed. Most of the remaining funds went to

893
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 4: various Catholic charities. The Toronto Police, however, officially closed the

894
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 4: small case in nineteen sixty, almost half a century after

895
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 4: the initial disappearance.

896
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an important point to note, right, because as

897
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 3: student listeners, we'll all hear that weird discrepancy. Nineteen twenty

898
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 3: three declared dead, nineteen sixty, case closed. That's a long

899
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 3: time window.

900
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 2: Isn't it weird to have the case closed and still

901
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 2: not have an answer. That's a little weird. Yeah, case

902
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 2: is still open.

903
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 4: I didn't think you're supposed to close cases unless you

904
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 4: found out you've done it.

905
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 3: You just call them cold, right, But they closed it,

906
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 3: and as a result, people have still been speculating about

907
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 3: this over time. In fact, there have been calls for reinvestigations,

908
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 3: new investigations. I mean, we know there was a second

909
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 3: investigation in nineteen thirty six that also went nowhere. That

910
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 3: was part of the impetus to declare the case closed

911
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty. You can see countless again magazine articles,

912
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 3: some great books. Even there was a play in twenty

913
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 3: twenty two that I don't think any of us have seen,

914
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 3: but I'm very curious to see what it what it entails.

915
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 3: Or what conclusions it draws. There is one thing though,

916
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 3: There's one piece we have to mention, right, it's the

917
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 3: letter from Reuter's not the news organization from Ruder.

918
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe it is Reuter. I don't know.

919
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 3: I like saying Reuter. Just yeah, yeah, it makes a joke,

920
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 3: it makes sense.

921
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 2: But it also looks like it looks like, yeah, this

922
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: is weird. This is a letter that allegedly came through

923
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: that had had some information in it. It was allegedly

924
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 2: pinned by the wife, right by Teresa, allegedly, and it

925
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 2: was basically a deathbed confession.

926
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 4: Yeah. I'll read a little bit of it if I could.

927
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 4: Poor Ambrose was killed on December second, nineteen nineteen. And

928
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 4: I know that part of his body, the trunk, was

929
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 4: buried in the Rosedale Ravine dump and other parts of

930
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 4: the body were burned in the Grand Opera House furnace.

931
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 4: This is very specific.

932
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

933
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 3: It continues, You will be surprised, my dear Florence.

934
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 2: And Gertrude, that the sisters, right.

935
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 3: The sisters of Ambrose Small. You will be surprised, my

936
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 3: dear Florence and Gertrude, to learn that I am more

937
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 3: responsible for your brother's death, God forgive me, Reuter Comma

938
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,720
Speaker 3: the news agency. No, that last part, that last Comma

939
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 3: part is not true, but the but I thought it

940
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 3: was worth the joke. So this comes out after Teresa's

941
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 3: small passes away, and this is coming from Ambrose's small sister, Florence,

942
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 3: the person at least the way they identify in the letter,

943
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 3: the way it's signed is just again Reuter.

944
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very weird. And in the the concept here

945
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 2: is that after Teresa is dead, this letter would prove

946
00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 2: that Teresa had something to do with the death of

947
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: a Ambrose, or at least was involved in some way,

948
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 2: so that the sisters now should be fully in control

949
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 2: or be the beneficiaries of other monies that were out there.

950
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 2: Even though most of the money in the fortune there,

951
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 2: as we said before, was given away to Catholic charities

952
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 2: and was tied up in legal stuff. The thought was

953
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 2: that the sisters came up with this idea and forged

954
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 2: a letter they would say that kind of thing. That's

955
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 2: the speculation, the speculation about it, guys. I want to

956
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 2: go back to the combo meal. What if, please, what

957
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 2: if the secretary who is there suffering through every day

958
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 2: with Ambrose right as he states, you know, I can't

959
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 2: believe I'm having to do all this stuff for so

960
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 2: little money. For this guy's doing all this crap. I

961
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,919
Speaker 2: don't like him at all, but I need this job.

962
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 2: I got to do this check Dowdy. Then you got

963
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 2: the wife who is living at the house. Oh my gosh,

964
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 2: I can't believe I'm living with this guy. I know

965
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 2: we have this business partnership, you know, marriage thing going on,

966
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 2: but I know all the stuff he's doing and the

967
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,280
Speaker 2: way he treats me and all this other stuff. Don't

968
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:05,240
Speaker 2: you think those two wouldluded some kind of trauma bond

969
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,839
Speaker 2: that we mentioned before in other episodes. Don't you think

970
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 2: maybe there's something in there where the two of them

971
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,959
Speaker 2: conspire to, uh, you know, take the money basically after

972
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 2: that huge windfall.

973
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 4: I don't know, Matt, I think that's a pretty pretty

974
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 4: solid alternative theory.

975
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: Well, when what what is the secretary doing when he's

976
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: in his Heidi hole that he made, you know, for

977
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 2: his trysts or whatever. Maybe he's at the house with

978
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 2: Teresa just and again that's all complete utter bs speculation

979
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 2: on my part, but I can just imagine the two

980
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 2: of them being closer than soult.

981
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll play these reindeer games further. What if like,

982
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 3: what if you say, Okay, for a big enough payoff,

983
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 3: I'll sacrifice six years of my life in the pen.

984
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 3: You know people have cracked that deal before.

985
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 4: Sure.

986
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 2: Well, and he was just trying to get away to

987
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 2: the US. He was in Oregon.

988
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 3: But like, I don't know, Yeah, I'm saying, but that

989
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 3: that could explain to the speculation. That could explain why

990
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 3: he didn't squeal because he thought he would be made

991
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 3: whole toward the end of Uh, toward the end of

992
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 3: the conspiracy. Uh. These these are great questions. And yes, folks,

993
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 3: we know law enforcement at the time was asking these

994
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 3: questions as well. But whatever they found, they did not

995
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 3: go forward with it, right, They did not release an

996
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 3: official conclusion. And that leads us to ask the question

997
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 3: we asked at the beginning, what happened to Ambrose Small?

998
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 3: There are tons of people who, for one reason or another,

999
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 3: are certain they've cracked the case. But despite all the

1000
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 3: investigations over over decades, decades, decades, no one has universally

1001
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 3: agreed on anything.

1002
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 4: Well, do we do we feel like this deathbed confession

1003
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 4: is sincere or Is this just another bit of a

1004
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 4: kind of smoke.

1005
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 3: That's a great question, and it's it's tough. You know,

1006
00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 3: at some point it's almost like a rorshack because they

1007
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 3: didn't have the same forensic methods available. Now, you know,

1008
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 3: like if this came out this we're twenty or post

1009
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 3: two thousand case, people will be checking DNA, right, that's

1010
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 3: the reality of it. It reminds me of our earlier conversation

1011
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 3: we had about DNA found on the belongings of a

1012
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,479
Speaker 3: victim of Jack the Ripper. Right now we ask about

1013
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 3: chain of custody. Was this kept sacra saying that might interfere?

1014
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 3: We know that nothing yet has led us closer to

1015
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 3: figuring out the truth, unless that is, you have a lead,

1016
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realist. If so, what a coincidence, because we

1017
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 3: have an email address and a telephone number and ways

1018
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 3: to contact us online.

1019
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 4: That's right. You can find us at the handle conspiracy

1020
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 4: Stuff where it exists all over the internet. On Facebook,

1021
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 4: we have a Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy.

1022
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 4: On YouTube, we have video content color for your perusing enjoyment.

1023
00:59:55,960 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 4: And on x FKA, Twitter, on Instagram and TikTok. For

1024
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 4: the time being, we are conspiracy stuff show. If you

1025
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 4: wish to contact us as individual human beings, you may

1026
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 4: do so. I am on Instagram at how now Noel

1027
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 4: Brown and Bolin How about yourself? Ah?

1028
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 3: Yes they do call me ben bullin here A big

1029
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 3: thanks to Hidulgo for reaching out. Maybe it was a

1030
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 3: U tree. Maybe these were willow bows if you want

1031
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 3: to find If you want to find or interact with

1032
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 3: me online, any questions, comments, love a limerick or a

1033
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 3: picture of corvids at ben Bulan where people use ats, Instagram,

1034
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 3: you can find me the air. You can also check

1035
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 3: out the website Bembolin dot com. Matt, Matt, what's kicking?

1036
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 3: What's ticking? What's talking?

1037
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 4: Uh?

1038
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 2: Just want to point out guys. For Monster the Zodiac Killer,

1039
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 2: we interviewed this author and historian Peter Vronsky about the

1040
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 2: Zodiac case. He is from Canada and specifically has written

1041
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 2: a book titled The Disappearance of Ambrose Small case closed.

1042
01:00:56,240 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 2: Huhh And I just didn't even think about that until

1043
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 2: I stumbled upon his book in research for this episode.

1044
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 2: So shout out to Peter Vronsky and check out his socials.

1045
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 2: That's vr o n Sky. Yeah. Hey, we also have

1046
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 2: a phone number. If you want to call us, our

1047
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 2: number is one eight three three st d WYTK. It

1048
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 2: is a voicemail system. When you call in, you've got

1049
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 2: three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname and let us

1050
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 2: know if we can use your name and message on

1051
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 2: the air. If you've got more to say than can

1052
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 2: fit in that three minute voice fail, maybe some links,

1053
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 2: maybe some images? Why not use our email.

1054
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 3: We are the entities who read every piece of correspondence

1055
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void

1056
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 3: writes back, we cannot wait to hear from you overdue

1057
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 3: with some uh, with some excellent correspondents. We can't wait

1058
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 3: to share with you in an upcoming listener mail. Do

1059
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 3: you want to be a part of it? Do we

1060
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 3: really write back? There's one way to find out. Step

1061
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 3: a little further from the light. Join us here in

1062
01:01:55,840 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 3: the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1063
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1064
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1065
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.