WEBVTT - Putting a Car on the Moon

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob Goldstein and this is a special

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<v Speaker 1>bonus episode of What's Your Problem. The problem we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about on the show today is amazing and delightful.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you build a car to drive on the

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<v Speaker 1>literal moon for real? My guest is Eddie Alterman, the

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<v Speaker 1>former editor in chief of Car and Driver and the

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<v Speaker 1>host of a new podcast called Car Show. Amazing name.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi Eddie A Jacob. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for coming on. I'm very excited about your show. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you give me the like, very brief elevator pitch for

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<v Speaker 1>Car Show? Yeah? So, Car Show is about why we

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<v Speaker 1>drive what we drive. It's not about horsepower and milesburg Gallen,

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not a sort of comparison test show. And

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<v Speaker 1>it's not, you know, two guys throwing verbal wrenches at

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<v Speaker 1>each other. It's not two guys arguing over the fence.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it dovetails really well with what you do here.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's about the problems associated with producing something innovative,

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<v Speaker 1>doing something new. It is that innovation that lasts, and

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<v Speaker 1>those innovative cars are the ones that sort of fix

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<v Speaker 1>themselves in the culture, and those are the breakthrough cars

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<v Speaker 1>are the ones that we're going to look at both

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<v Speaker 1>how they came to be and then what their cultural

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<v Speaker 1>impact was. So I love the episode about the lunar rover,

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<v Speaker 1>which is basically a car, right yeah, I mean it

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<v Speaker 1>looks like a jeep. You've probably if you're listening to,

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<v Speaker 1>probably seen pictures of the guys driving on the Moon

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<v Speaker 1>right right in their space suits and they've got the

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the satellite dish and those wild men schwire wheels.

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<v Speaker 1>There are two different models of the lunar rover, right,

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<v Speaker 1>there's the first one that we built, that engineers built,

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<v Speaker 1>like what is it now, fifty sixty years ago when

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<v Speaker 1>when people went to the Moon for the first time. Yea,

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<v Speaker 1>So part one of the show is going to be

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<v Speaker 1>you telling me that story, and then part two of

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<v Speaker 1>the show is sort of excitingly, engineers are right now

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<v Speaker 1>today building a new lunar rover, a new car to

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<v Speaker 1>drive on the Moon for the next you know, for

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<v Speaker 1>this planned new mission to the Moon. So so let's

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<v Speaker 1>start out with the with the old lunar rover, right, like,

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<v Speaker 1>just what just get me into that story? What are

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<v Speaker 1>we It starts in what the fifties, the early sixties.

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<v Speaker 1>Must be the sixties. It's the sixties, and the timeline

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<v Speaker 1>was very, very tight. Um. What they found was the

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<v Speaker 1>earliest Apollo missions were really limited in scope by how

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<v Speaker 1>far the astronauts could travel. You couldn't really terry yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>exactly exactly. It took a lot of energy, they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot of air, and so they couldn't really

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<v Speaker 1>do science up there. They couldn't really interrogate the surface

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<v Speaker 1>of the Moon. And now the idea of having a

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<v Speaker 1>car on the Moon, it's kind of ridiculous. Right, we're

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<v Speaker 1>already at the moon, right, do we really need a car? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>the funny thing is you do to do real science,

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<v Speaker 1>you had to go past the radius of walking exploration.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're gonna do this kind of ridiculous but apparently

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<v Speaker 1>useful thing, build a car to go to the Moon. Like,

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<v Speaker 1>where do you even start? Well, the first problem is

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<v Speaker 1>how do you even test the thing? Okay, you're designing

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<v Speaker 1>a vehicle for a one six gravity environment, but do

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<v Speaker 1>you have Earth mass astronauts that have to sit in it?

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<v Speaker 1>And if they sit in it, they'll crush it, So

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<v Speaker 1>you couldn't drive it beforehand. So they built the vehicle

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<v Speaker 1>that was like optimized to drive on the Moon in

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<v Speaker 1>one sixth gravity and be super light. But that means

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<v Speaker 1>that like literally if the astronauts just sat in the

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<v Speaker 1>driver's seat on Earth, they'd break it, that's right, they

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<v Speaker 1>would crush it. So it's like a crapshoot. It's like,

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<v Speaker 1>what we hope it works. There was no test drive,

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<v Speaker 1>so okay, so they build this thing with no test drive,

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<v Speaker 1>and then and then you've got to get it from

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<v Speaker 1>from Earth to the Moon, right, like a whole car.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got to get it to the Moon to love

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<v Speaker 1>with the astronauts. Yeah, so they originally when they wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to send a car up, they wanted to send two

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<v Speaker 1>lunar modules. But the budget was two lunar modules, meaning

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<v Speaker 1>two spaceships. Two spaceships, one one for the guys and

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<v Speaker 1>one for the car. One for the guys and one

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<v Speaker 1>for the car, like a garage, like a garage in

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<v Speaker 1>space where you park your car, a flying garage to

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<v Speaker 1>take the car, because you've got to put the car

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<v Speaker 1>somewhere right, and it's a little space ship. But the

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<v Speaker 1>guys are in right, so that you know you've got

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<v Speaker 1>this lunar module that's got all this stuff. Minute, where

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<v Speaker 1>are you gonna put a car? Yeah? So okay, so

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<v Speaker 1>so do they do that? And so the original design

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<v Speaker 1>had six wheels, and they thought, okay, we can package

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<v Speaker 1>this six wheel vehicle because that'll be great for crawling

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<v Speaker 1>over stuff. You know, six wheels, there's always you know,

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<v Speaker 1>some contact with the terrain, bumpy if you're up on

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<v Speaker 1>a crazy rock something still rolling pushing against the moon. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>there's highly articulated sort of space spider. Right, that was

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<v Speaker 1>gonna gonna crawl over stuff and could get over anything.

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<v Speaker 1>A space spider. I mean, what's not to love about

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<v Speaker 1>a highlight insulated space planet. Right, budget gets slashed, They go,

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<v Speaker 1>we can't send two lunar modules. We can always send one.

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<v Speaker 1>We're not going to send a garage to the moon.

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<v Speaker 1>But we still need the car, right, okay, okay, this

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<v Speaker 1>is a good problem. Still want to You've got this

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<v Speaker 1>little space ship full of guys and stuff, and you've

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<v Speaker 1>got to find a place to put a car in it. Exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's the old problem. How do you get the

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<v Speaker 1>stroller in your trunk? Right? You fold it up. So

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<v Speaker 1>they did that with the with the Rover, they built

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<v Speaker 1>a car that folds up yes. So first thing they

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<v Speaker 1>did was they need to downsize it a little bit,

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<v Speaker 1>so they went from six wheels to four wheels, even

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<v Speaker 1>more like a traditional car. Yes, And then they figured

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<v Speaker 1>out how to fold it like a business letter, like

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<v Speaker 1>in thirds really like it like it like or like

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<v Speaker 1>a maybe like an accordion kind of, I mean yeah, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>like the one axle flop over onto the main section

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<v Speaker 1>where they would sit. The other axle would flop on

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<v Speaker 1>top of that, and they'd stuff it into the belly

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<v Speaker 1>of the of the single lunar module. So then you

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<v Speaker 1>take it out of basically the belly of the lunar module,

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<v Speaker 1>you unfold it, you hop in, and you start driving

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<v Speaker 1>around and did it? Did it work? Is this what

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<v Speaker 1>actually happened? Yes, it worked. It was right. So I

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<v Speaker 1>know in the story there's this moment you talk about

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<v Speaker 1>where everything's going fine, but then something goes wrong. Right. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>Up on the Moon they run into a problem. The

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<v Speaker 1>first mission that had a lunar rover was Apolo fifteen. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>they unfurl the thing, they roll it onto the surface

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<v Speaker 1>of the Moon, and then the steering doesn't work. So

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<v Speaker 1>they got a lemon. Right, So the steering doesn't work,

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<v Speaker 1>and is that the end of that? Do they just

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<v Speaker 1>not drive on that mission? It magically connects and they're fine. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so they're driving around. It works itself out. A little

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<v Speaker 1>electrical glitch that works itself out. Not a big deal,

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<v Speaker 1>but sort of a harbinger of things to come. On

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<v Speaker 1>Apollo sixteen, Okay, the next mission, astronaut John Young has

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<v Speaker 1>a hammer in his pocket on his space suit, as

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<v Speaker 1>one does, and he walks past the lunar rover and

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<v Speaker 1>the hammer snags itself on the fender of one of

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<v Speaker 1>the rear wheels and it rips the fender off. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>not a huge deal on Earth, right, Sure you see

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<v Speaker 1>people driving around with that offender exactly, but these have

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<v Speaker 1>sort of like motorcycle fenders. He rips this thing off,

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<v Speaker 1>and now he's driving around on the Moon and he's

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<v Speaker 1>kicking up a huge flume of moon dust, which is gritty,

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<v Speaker 1>not really good for the equipment, the space suits. This

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<v Speaker 1>gritty moon dust gets into everything, and the fender was

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<v Speaker 1>supposed to sort of keep that dust from spraying up, right,

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<v Speaker 1>That's what the fender is there for, And now the

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<v Speaker 1>fender is not doing that, so there's getting everywhere. So okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so there's dust everywhere. What happens? Okay, so it starts

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<v Speaker 1>getting into the electronics and things start overheating, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>getting into the O rings on their space suits and bad,

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<v Speaker 1>not just for the call are but for the astronauts.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, like really bad. And so what do you do?

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<v Speaker 1>There are no repair shops on the moon. Right, he's

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<v Speaker 1>got a hammer. We know he's got a hammer. That

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<v Speaker 1>he's got a hammer. And you know what else they had?

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<v Speaker 1>They had duct tape. No, okay, yeah, they had it

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<v Speaker 1>with duct tape. They fixed it with duct tape. They

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<v Speaker 1>took geologic they took the geological maps that they had

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<v Speaker 1>in the rover, folded them together into a you know,

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<v Speaker 1>sort of makeshift fender extension and duct tape. Ton that

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<v Speaker 1>is dynamite. Isn't it awesome? And it worked and they

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<v Speaker 1>just kept driving around the Moon. That's right, That's exactly right.

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<v Speaker 1>Let me say, Eddie, thank you for coming talking to

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<v Speaker 1>me about your new show. Thank you, and let's play

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<v Speaker 1>now a part of your new show of car show.

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<v Speaker 1>NASA's planning a new mission to the Moon, and people

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<v Speaker 1>right now are design a new car to drive on

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<v Speaker 1>the Moon. So let's hear that NASA's Artemis program plans

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<v Speaker 1>to get us back to the Moon for the first

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<v Speaker 1>time in fifty years. The current timetable has Americans landing

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<v Speaker 1>on the Moon in twenty twenty four. NASA plans to

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<v Speaker 1>put a permanent colony on the Moon and use it

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<v Speaker 1>as a platform for travel to Mars, and once again,

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<v Speaker 1>General Motors is busy at the drafting table. But unlike

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<v Speaker 1>those early Apollo missions, the goal this time around isn't

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<v Speaker 1>just about exploration. What's really interesting about this particular series

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<v Speaker 1>of missions is that the intent is a long term habitation,

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<v Speaker 1>or a colonization of the Moon, if you will. That's

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<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey Neil who's working to design the new lunar rover

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<v Speaker 1>for Artemis. So yes, perhaps we'll get our vacation homes

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<v Speaker 1>up there. Yet we may be a two planet species,

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<v Speaker 1>after all. Elon Musk wants that second planet to be Mars,

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<v Speaker 1>not the Moon, but Artemis posits the Moon as a

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<v Speaker 1>launchpad for Mars exploration too. We're going back to the Moon,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is why the Moon is a treasure trove

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<v Speaker 1>of science. It holds opportunities for us to make discoveries

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<v Speaker 1>about our own planet, about our son and a bottle

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<v Speaker 1>solar system. The wealth of knowledge to be gleaned from

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<v Speaker 1>the Moon will inspire a new generation of thought and action.

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<v Speaker 1>Without fail, every major program and mission NASA has invested

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<v Speaker 1>in has led to technologies and capabilities that have shaped

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<v Speaker 1>our culture. The breakthroughs of the Artemis era will define

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<v Speaker 1>our generation. The Moon also makes an interesting proving ground

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<v Speaker 1>for streets on Earth. The new rovers are electrified, as

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<v Speaker 1>the first ones were, but that line of electric vehicle

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<v Speaker 1>development stopped with Apollo. Hopefully what the Artemis team finds

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<v Speaker 1>out about batteries and motors can be applied down here.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that having the lunar surface or the lunar

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<v Speaker 1>environment as a proving ground is certainly a wonderful opportunity.

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<v Speaker 1>The solution is that are effective in that challenging environment

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<v Speaker 1>will absolutely push our knowledge in our technology in the

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<v Speaker 1>direction that we could then therefore apply back on Earth.

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<v Speaker 1>You have a pretty unique thermal environment there. All you

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<v Speaker 1>ev owners out there know what I'm getting at. When

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<v Speaker 1>it's cold out, you'll lose driving range, lots of it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>So there's a huge shift in temperature the lunar surface

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<v Speaker 1>when it's when it's daylight is two hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 1>degrees fahrenheit. When it's the equivalent of nighttime, it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>two hundred and fifty degrees fahrenheit below zero. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>a massive shift. We don't really experience anything quite like

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<v Speaker 1>that here. And the lunar night lasts for the equivalent

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<v Speaker 1>of fourteen Earth days, so it's a very long night,

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<v Speaker 1>a very long day, very cold night, very hot day.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things that we're working on is obviously

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<v Speaker 1>solar charging. That's that's they're going to be the source

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<v Speaker 1>for this vehicle. There's nothing to plug into up there,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're developing what's called a solar array, and this

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<v Speaker 1>will pull energy from the sun and it will store it,

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<v Speaker 1>and our goal is to survive the lunar night. We're

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<v Speaker 1>intending for these vehicles to be able to live on

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<v Speaker 1>the lunar surface, so they have to absorb fourteen days

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<v Speaker 1>of heat and light and then use that to survive

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<v Speaker 1>fourteen days of cold and darkness, and then repeat over

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<v Speaker 1>and over and over and over again. So this rover

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<v Speaker 1>would be of unlimited use. You could go as far

0:13:49.676 --> 0:13:53.716
<v Speaker 1>as you want because it's rechargeable. It's also recyclable. The

0:13:53.796 --> 0:13:57.436
<v Speaker 1>idea is that these are not one time use disposable

0:13:58.076 --> 0:14:01.076
<v Speaker 1>mobility vehicles. These have to have a lot of durability

0:14:01.116 --> 0:14:04.876
<v Speaker 1>and longevity. We've thought a lot about you know, we're

0:14:04.916 --> 0:14:08.116
<v Speaker 1>in a situation now where we're having conversations about repair

0:14:08.676 --> 0:14:12.036
<v Speaker 1>long term and repair our parts inventory. It's not a

0:14:12.076 --> 0:14:17.956
<v Speaker 1>one used case situation like Apollo. We've even talked to

0:14:18.036 --> 0:14:22.996
<v Speaker 1>the team about the interchangeability of the parts. The intent

0:14:23.156 --> 0:14:24.956
<v Speaker 1>is to have more than one of these rovers on

0:14:24.996 --> 0:14:27.316
<v Speaker 1>the surface at any given time. I mean, we're thinking

0:14:27.356 --> 0:14:29.916
<v Speaker 1>about maintaining a fleet of vehicles over a long period

0:14:29.916 --> 0:14:33.516
<v Speaker 1>of time, and the more we can share between this

0:14:33.556 --> 0:14:36.316
<v Speaker 1>fleet of rovers, the better we're going to be. Yeah,

0:14:36.316 --> 0:14:39.636
<v Speaker 1>it's funny because you know, the Apollo programs were sort

0:14:39.676 --> 0:14:44.876
<v Speaker 1>of use it and leave it, and then the Space

0:14:44.876 --> 0:14:48.716
<v Speaker 1>Shuttle is a reusable service craft. And now you look

0:14:48.756 --> 0:14:54.876
<v Speaker 1>at what euon Musk is doing, and those vehicles intercept

0:14:54.956 --> 0:14:57.276
<v Speaker 1>the space station, they come back and they land on

0:14:57.356 --> 0:15:01.036
<v Speaker 1>the pad, and sustainability and reusability seem to be all

0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:04.556
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden the keywords of the space program. So

0:15:04.596 --> 0:15:07.956
<v Speaker 1>it's really cool to hear that we're not just using

0:15:07.956 --> 0:15:12.196
<v Speaker 1>it and dumping it on the moon because there's three

0:15:12.196 --> 0:15:16.436
<v Speaker 1>cars there already. All right, I can't wait for the

0:15:16.476 --> 0:15:21.276
<v Speaker 1>photo of the new Rover and the old Rovers. A

0:15:21.396 --> 0:15:26.676
<v Speaker 1>great idea. Do you hear that? Everybody, We're going back

0:15:26.676 --> 0:15:45.236
<v Speaker 1>to the moon. That was a clip from Pushkin's newest podcast,

0:15:45.636 --> 0:15:50.756
<v Speaker 1>Car Show exclamation Mark with Eddie Alterman. Other episodes of

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<v Speaker 1>the show include stories about a car that defied gravity,

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<v Speaker 1>the best sports sedan ever made, and also how the

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<v Speaker 1>minivan changed America. It's true it did. You can find

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<v Speaker 1>Car Show with Eddie Alterman wherever