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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob Goldstein and this is a special

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Speaker 1: bonus episode of What's Your Problem. The problem we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about on the show today is amazing and delightful.

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Speaker 1: How do you build a car to drive on the

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Speaker 1: literal moon for real? My guest is Eddie Alterman, the

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Speaker 1: former editor in chief of Car and Driver and the

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Speaker 1: host of a new podcast called Car Show. Amazing name.

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Speaker 1: Hi Eddie A Jacob. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks

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Speaker 1: for coming on. I'm very excited about your show. Can

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Speaker 1: you give me the like, very brief elevator pitch for

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Speaker 1: Car Show? Yeah? So, Car Show is about why we

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Speaker 1: drive what we drive. It's not about horsepower and milesburg Gallen,

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Speaker 1: And it's not a sort of comparison test show. And

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Speaker 1: it's not, you know, two guys throwing verbal wrenches at

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Speaker 1: each other. It's not two guys arguing over the fence.

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Speaker 1: I think it dovetails really well with what you do here.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's about the problems associated with producing something innovative,

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Speaker 1: doing something new. It is that innovation that lasts, and

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Speaker 1: those innovative cars are the ones that sort of fix

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Speaker 1: themselves in the culture, and those are the breakthrough cars

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Speaker 1: are the ones that we're going to look at both

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Speaker 1: how they came to be and then what their cultural

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Speaker 1: impact was. So I love the episode about the lunar rover,

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Speaker 1: which is basically a car, right yeah, I mean it

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Speaker 1: looks like a jeep. You've probably if you're listening to,

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Speaker 1: probably seen pictures of the guys driving on the Moon

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Speaker 1: right right in their space suits and they've got the

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Speaker 1: you know, the satellite dish and those wild men schwire wheels.

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Speaker 1: There are two different models of the lunar rover, right,

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Speaker 1: there's the first one that we built, that engineers built,

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Speaker 1: like what is it now, fifty sixty years ago when

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Speaker 1: when people went to the Moon for the first time. Yea,

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Speaker 1: So part one of the show is going to be

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Speaker 1: you telling me that story, and then part two of

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Speaker 1: the show is sort of excitingly, engineers are right now

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Speaker 1: today building a new lunar rover, a new car to

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Speaker 1: drive on the Moon for the next you know, for

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Speaker 1: this planned new mission to the Moon. So so let's

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Speaker 1: start out with the with the old lunar rover, right, like,

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Speaker 1: just what just get me into that story? What are

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Speaker 1: we It starts in what the fifties, the early sixties.

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Speaker 1: Must be the sixties. It's the sixties, and the timeline

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Speaker 1: was very, very tight. Um. What they found was the

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Speaker 1: earliest Apollo missions were really limited in scope by how

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Speaker 1: far the astronauts could travel. You couldn't really terry yeah,

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Speaker 1: exactly exactly. It took a lot of energy, they didn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of air, and so they couldn't really

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Speaker 1: do science up there. They couldn't really interrogate the surface

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Speaker 1: of the Moon. And now the idea of having a

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Speaker 1: car on the Moon, it's kind of ridiculous. Right, we're

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Speaker 1: already at the moon, right, do we really need a car? Well,

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Speaker 1: the funny thing is you do to do real science,

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Speaker 1: you had to go past the radius of walking exploration.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna do this kind of ridiculous but apparently

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Speaker 1: useful thing, build a car to go to the Moon. Like,

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Speaker 1: where do you even start? Well, the first problem is

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Speaker 1: how do you even test the thing? Okay, you're designing

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Speaker 1: a vehicle for a one six gravity environment, but do

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Speaker 1: you have Earth mass astronauts that have to sit in it?

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Speaker 1: And if they sit in it, they'll crush it, So

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Speaker 1: you couldn't drive it beforehand. So they built the vehicle

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Speaker 1: that was like optimized to drive on the Moon in

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Speaker 1: one sixth gravity and be super light. But that means

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Speaker 1: that like literally if the astronauts just sat in the

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Speaker 1: driver's seat on Earth, they'd break it, that's right, they

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Speaker 1: would crush it. So it's like a crapshoot. It's like,

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Speaker 1: what we hope it works. There was no test drive,

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Speaker 1: so okay, so they build this thing with no test drive,

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Speaker 1: and then and then you've got to get it from

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Speaker 1: from Earth to the Moon, right, like a whole car.

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Speaker 1: You've got to get it to the Moon to love

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Speaker 1: with the astronauts. Yeah, so they originally when they wanted

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Speaker 1: to send a car up, they wanted to send two

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Speaker 1: lunar modules. But the budget was two lunar modules, meaning

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Speaker 1: two spaceships. Two spaceships, one one for the guys and

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Speaker 1: one for the car. One for the guys and one

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Speaker 1: for the car, like a garage, like a garage in

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Speaker 1: space where you park your car, a flying garage to

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Speaker 1: take the car, because you've got to put the car

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Speaker 1: somewhere right, and it's a little space ship. But the

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Speaker 1: guys are in right, so that you know you've got

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Speaker 1: this lunar module that's got all this stuff. Minute, where

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Speaker 1: are you gonna put a car? Yeah? So okay, so

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Speaker 1: so do they do that? And so the original design

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Speaker 1: had six wheels, and they thought, okay, we can package

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Speaker 1: this six wheel vehicle because that'll be great for crawling

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Speaker 1: over stuff. You know, six wheels, there's always you know,

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Speaker 1: some contact with the terrain, bumpy if you're up on

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Speaker 1: a crazy rock something still rolling pushing against the moon. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's highly articulated sort of space spider. Right, that was

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Speaker 1: gonna gonna crawl over stuff and could get over anything.

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Speaker 1: A space spider. I mean, what's not to love about

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Speaker 1: a highlight insulated space planet. Right, budget gets slashed, They go,

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Speaker 1: we can't send two lunar modules. We can always send one.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to send a garage to the moon.

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Speaker 1: But we still need the car, right, okay, okay, this

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Speaker 1: is a good problem. Still want to You've got this

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Speaker 1: little space ship full of guys and stuff, and you've

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Speaker 1: got to find a place to put a car in it. Exactly.

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Speaker 1: So it's the old problem. How do you get the

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Speaker 1: stroller in your trunk? Right? You fold it up. So

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Speaker 1: they did that with the with the Rover, they built

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Speaker 1: a car that folds up yes. So first thing they

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Speaker 1: did was they need to downsize it a little bit,

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Speaker 1: so they went from six wheels to four wheels, even

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Speaker 1: more like a traditional car. Yes, And then they figured

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Speaker 1: out how to fold it like a business letter, like

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Speaker 1: in thirds really like it like it like or like

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Speaker 1: a maybe like an accordion kind of, I mean yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like the one axle flop over onto the main section

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Speaker 1: where they would sit. The other axle would flop on

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Speaker 1: top of that, and they'd stuff it into the belly

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Speaker 1: of the of the single lunar module. So then you

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Speaker 1: take it out of basically the belly of the lunar module,

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Speaker 1: you unfold it, you hop in, and you start driving

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Speaker 1: around and did it? Did it work? Is this what

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Speaker 1: actually happened? Yes, it worked. It was right. So I

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Speaker 1: know in the story there's this moment you talk about

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Speaker 1: where everything's going fine, but then something goes wrong. Right. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Up on the Moon they run into a problem. The

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Speaker 1: first mission that had a lunar rover was Apolo fifteen. Okay,

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Speaker 1: they unfurl the thing, they roll it onto the surface

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Speaker 1: of the Moon, and then the steering doesn't work. So

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Speaker 1: they got a lemon. Right, So the steering doesn't work,

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Speaker 1: and is that the end of that? Do they just

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Speaker 1: not drive on that mission? It magically connects and they're fine. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so they're driving around. It works itself out. A little

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Speaker 1: electrical glitch that works itself out. Not a big deal,

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Speaker 1: but sort of a harbinger of things to come. On

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Speaker 1: Apollo sixteen, Okay, the next mission, astronaut John Young has

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Speaker 1: a hammer in his pocket on his space suit, as

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Speaker 1: one does, and he walks past the lunar rover and

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Speaker 1: the hammer snags itself on the fender of one of

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Speaker 1: the rear wheels and it rips the fender off. Okay,

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Speaker 1: not a huge deal on Earth, right, Sure you see

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Speaker 1: people driving around with that offender exactly, but these have

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Speaker 1: sort of like motorcycle fenders. He rips this thing off,

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Speaker 1: and now he's driving around on the Moon and he's

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Speaker 1: kicking up a huge flume of moon dust, which is gritty,

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Speaker 1: not really good for the equipment, the space suits. This

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Speaker 1: gritty moon dust gets into everything, and the fender was

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Speaker 1: supposed to sort of keep that dust from spraying up, right,

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Speaker 1: That's what the fender is there for, And now the

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Speaker 1: fender is not doing that, so there's getting everywhere. So okay,

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Speaker 1: so there's dust everywhere. What happens? Okay, so it starts

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Speaker 1: getting into the electronics and things start overheating, and it's

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Speaker 1: getting into the O rings on their space suits and bad,

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Speaker 1: not just for the call are but for the astronauts.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like really bad. And so what do you do?

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Speaker 1: There are no repair shops on the moon. Right, he's

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Speaker 1: got a hammer. We know he's got a hammer. That

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Speaker 1: he's got a hammer. And you know what else they had?

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Speaker 1: They had duct tape. No, okay, yeah, they had it

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Speaker 1: with duct tape. They fixed it with duct tape. They

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Speaker 1: took geologic they took the geological maps that they had

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Speaker 1: in the rover, folded them together into a you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of makeshift fender extension and duct tape. Ton that

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Speaker 1: is dynamite. Isn't it awesome? And it worked and they

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Speaker 1: just kept driving around the Moon. That's right, That's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: Let me say, Eddie, thank you for coming talking to

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Speaker 1: me about your new show. Thank you, and let's play

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Speaker 1: now a part of your new show of car show.

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Speaker 1: NASA's planning a new mission to the Moon, and people

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Speaker 1: right now are design a new car to drive on

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Speaker 1: the Moon. So let's hear that NASA's Artemis program plans

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Speaker 1: to get us back to the Moon for the first

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Speaker 1: time in fifty years. The current timetable has Americans landing

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Speaker 1: on the Moon in twenty twenty four. NASA plans to

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Speaker 1: put a permanent colony on the Moon and use it

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Speaker 1: as a platform for travel to Mars, and once again,

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Speaker 1: General Motors is busy at the drafting table. But unlike

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Speaker 1: those early Apollo missions, the goal this time around isn't

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Speaker 1: just about exploration. What's really interesting about this particular series

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Speaker 1: of missions is that the intent is a long term habitation,

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Speaker 1: or a colonization of the Moon, if you will. That's

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Neil who's working to design the new lunar rover

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Speaker 1: for Artemis. So yes, perhaps we'll get our vacation homes

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Speaker 1: up there. Yet we may be a two planet species,

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Speaker 1: after all. Elon Musk wants that second planet to be Mars,

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Speaker 1: not the Moon, but Artemis posits the Moon as a

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Speaker 1: launchpad for Mars exploration too. We're going back to the Moon,

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Speaker 1: and this is why the Moon is a treasure trove

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Speaker 1: of science. It holds opportunities for us to make discoveries

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Speaker 1: about our own planet, about our son and a bottle

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Speaker 1: solar system. The wealth of knowledge to be gleaned from

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Speaker 1: the Moon will inspire a new generation of thought and action.

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Speaker 1: Without fail, every major program and mission NASA has invested

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Speaker 1: in has led to technologies and capabilities that have shaped

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Speaker 1: our culture. The breakthroughs of the Artemis era will define

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Speaker 1: our generation. The Moon also makes an interesting proving ground

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Speaker 1: for streets on Earth. The new rovers are electrified, as

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Speaker 1: the first ones were, but that line of electric vehicle

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Speaker 1: development stopped with Apollo. Hopefully what the Artemis team finds

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Speaker 1: out about batteries and motors can be applied down here.

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Speaker 1: I think that having the lunar surface or the lunar

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Speaker 1: environment as a proving ground is certainly a wonderful opportunity.

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Speaker 1: The solution is that are effective in that challenging environment

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Speaker 1: will absolutely push our knowledge in our technology in the

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Speaker 1: direction that we could then therefore apply back on Earth.

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Speaker 1: You have a pretty unique thermal environment there. All you

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Speaker 1: ev owners out there know what I'm getting at. When

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Speaker 1: it's cold out, you'll lose driving range, lots of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So there's a huge shift in temperature the lunar surface

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Speaker 1: when it's when it's daylight is two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit. When it's the equivalent of nighttime, it's it's

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty degrees fahrenheit below zero. So that's

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Speaker 1: a massive shift. We don't really experience anything quite like

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Speaker 1: that here. And the lunar night lasts for the equivalent

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Speaker 1: of fourteen Earth days, so it's a very long night,

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Speaker 1: a very long day, very cold night, very hot day.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that we're working on is obviously

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Speaker 1: solar charging. That's that's they're going to be the source

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Speaker 1: for this vehicle. There's nothing to plug into up there,

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Speaker 1: and we're developing what's called a solar array, and this

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Speaker 1: will pull energy from the sun and it will store it,

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Speaker 1: and our goal is to survive the lunar night. We're

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Speaker 1: intending for these vehicles to be able to live on

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Speaker 1: the lunar surface, so they have to absorb fourteen days

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Speaker 1: of heat and light and then use that to survive

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Speaker 1: fourteen days of cold and darkness, and then repeat over

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Speaker 1: and over and over and over again. So this rover

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Speaker 1: would be of unlimited use. You could go as far

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Speaker 1: as you want because it's rechargeable. It's also recyclable. The

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Speaker 1: idea is that these are not one time use disposable

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Speaker 1: mobility vehicles. These have to have a lot of durability

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Speaker 1: and longevity. We've thought a lot about you know, we're

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Speaker 1: in a situation now where we're having conversations about repair

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Speaker 1: long term and repair our parts inventory. It's not a

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Speaker 1: one used case situation like Apollo. We've even talked to

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Speaker 1: the team about the interchangeability of the parts. The intent

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Speaker 1: is to have more than one of these rovers on

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Speaker 1: the surface at any given time. I mean, we're thinking

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Speaker 1: about maintaining a fleet of vehicles over a long period

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Speaker 1: of time, and the more we can share between this

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Speaker 1: fleet of rovers, the better we're going to be. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's funny because you know, the Apollo programs were sort

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Speaker 1: of use it and leave it, and then the Space

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Speaker 1: Shuttle is a reusable service craft. And now you look

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Speaker 1: at what euon Musk is doing, and those vehicles intercept

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Speaker 1: the space station, they come back and they land on

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Speaker 1: the pad, and sustainability and reusability seem to be all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden the keywords of the space program. So

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Speaker 1: it's really cool to hear that we're not just using

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Speaker 1: it and dumping it on the moon because there's three

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Speaker 1: cars there already. All right, I can't wait for the

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Speaker 1: photo of the new Rover and the old Rovers. A

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Speaker 1: great idea. Do you hear that? Everybody, We're going back

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