1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb. 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 3: two of our discussion of Osiris, the ancient Egyptian god 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 3: of fertility, an embodiment of kingship, especially dead kingship and 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 3: the lord and judge of the dead. 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, also in agricultural god. There's a lot of complexity 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: to Osiris, and so in the last episode we basically 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 2: talked about who this figure of Osiris is, where and 11 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: when he emerges from, as much as we can answer 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: that question, and the basic canon of myths surrounding him. 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 3: And the fact that you were inspired to do this 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 3: topic because we covered the movie Doctor Five's Rises again. 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, like seventy five percent Doctor Phibs, maybe twenty 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: five percent Easter. So props to Doctor Phibes than Jesus 17 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 2: for inspiring this episode. Now, before we get into some 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: we are going to get into some additional questions that 19 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: we tease last time about comparisons to be made between 20 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 2: the figure of Osiris and other deities and other religions. 21 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 2: But before we do that I want to come back 22 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: to a deity that I mentioned in the last episode 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: towards the end of it, and that is the Greco 24 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: Egyptian syncretic deity Serapists. This is the deity that is 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: established under the rule of the Ptolemies in Egypt, a 26 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 2: god that combines elements of Osiris and APIs, the Sacred Bull. 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: These are both again Egyptian deities, along with various Greek 28 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: deities like Zeus and Hades. So I just wanted to 29 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: add a little more context on this because I don't 30 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: think I explained the scenario as well as I could have, 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: or didn't go into as much detail as I could 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: have in a way that I think benefits our understanding, 33 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: because we get into this idea again of kind of 34 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: like an amalgam god that is, to a certain degree, 35 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: kind of built by committee with a certain purpose in mind. 36 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: And that purpose is not just like, oh, I have 37 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 2: to figure out who you know, what God is real 38 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: and I must convene with it and get its blessings. 39 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 3: Rob in our outline, you have attached a photo of 40 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: a sculpture of Serapis seated on a throne, or at 41 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 3: least on a chair sort of dressed in a robe 42 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 3: and holding up some kind of wand or maybe a 43 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 3: scroll of a toon of some some sort of cylindrical object. 44 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 3: But under his other hand, oh, there's a very good boy. 45 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 3: It is the three headed hound of Hades. 46 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: Cerberus that's right, looking very loyal and very domesticated right 47 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 2: there by his side. There are various that you can 48 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 2: easily do a Google search on Siapis that's se r 49 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: a Pi s and you'll find various images that basically 50 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: fit this. Sometimes it's just the head, sometimes you see 51 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: the full body. Sometimes Cerberus is there, sometimes not. But 52 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 2: I do have to drive home like the utter greekness 53 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 2: of this image, because this will be important to come 54 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: back to later, Like this is a very Greek looking god. 55 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: If you didn't know exactly what deity this is, or 56 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 2: what figure this is, you wouldn't have to know much 57 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: at all about iconography and sculpture and depictions of the 58 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 2: divine to say, oh, this looks very Greek to me. 59 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's certainly a Greek art style. 60 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course ye, and then the three headed 61 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: dog right out of Greek mythology. So come back to 62 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: Sorapis here in a second. But just to back up 63 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: a little bit, I do want to drive home that 64 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: Egypt experienced foreign rule at various points throughout its long history. 65 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: There were the Hisos, which I believe we've talked about 66 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 2: a little bit on the show before. This is a 67 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: term that means rulers of foreign lands, and they controlled 68 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: the Delta region of Egypt during the seventeenth century BCE. 69 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: These were the first foreigners to rule over part of Egypt, 70 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: and there's much that's not known about them, with various 71 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: theories about their exact origin, though it seems that some 72 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: sort of Canaanite origin is possible, and there has also 73 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: been some evidence to suggest that it was perhaps not 74 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 2: an outward invasion, but an uprising of peoples who had 75 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: previously immigrated to the regions. So there's a lot of 76 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: scholarly dispute on exactly who these people were and what 77 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: this time period consisted of. Now, subsequent invasions by the Nubians, 78 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: the Assyrians, the Persians, and the Greeks also occurred, but 79 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 2: pertinent to our discussion here is that in three point 80 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: thirty two BCE, Macedonian king Alexander the Great conquered Egypt 81 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: from the Persians and after his death. After Alexander's death 82 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 2: in three twenty three BCE, likely by either poison or disease. 83 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: He was only thirty two at the time, so there's 84 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 2: a lot of arguments for the poison theory here. But 85 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: after he dies, a Macedonian general that had served under Alexander, 86 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: by the of Ptolemy, declared himself ruler of Egypt, and 87 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: the Ptolemy family would rule Egypt for three centuries. So 88 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: in her book Egyptian Mythology that I cited in the 89 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: last episode, Jeraldine Pinch writes a little bit about this 90 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: and points out that the Ptolemy's ruled from Alexandria, and 91 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: that is the course where they built the Great Library 92 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: of Alexandria. Though most of its contents, she points out, 93 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 2: would not have concerned Egyptian culture, Egyptian history, and Egyptian mythology, 94 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: you know, Greek culture was very much the focal point 95 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 2: of the lost contents of this place. Most of the 96 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 2: Ptolemy's apparently never learned to speak Egyptian, but they did, 97 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 2: she says, recognize the challenges of governing a multicultural society 98 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 2: and keeping powerful Egyptian factions content and this is ultimately 99 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: where the invention of Sirapis comes into play, which she 100 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 2: describes as quote a symbol of cultural fusion. So Sirapis 101 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 2: is often described as a patron deity for the Ptolemy 102 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 2: capital of Alexandria, so again a unifying entity. And also 103 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: in combining all these elements, Serapists becomes a god of 104 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 2: not only fertility and the underworld, which, if you know, 105 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: we're already loaded in our concept of Osiris, but also 106 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: he becomes the god of the sun in the sky 107 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: and he sometimes credited in this role as Zeus Serapis. 108 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: And it's interesting that by absorbing these various powers, he 109 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: essentially becomes a god of everything, sort of a monotheism 110 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: by monopoly or something like. 111 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 3: That, one god among many, increasingly absorbing more and more responsibilities. 112 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I was trying to think of it in 113 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: terms of, like what's a secular example of like have 114 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 2: have team mascots ever been merged into single mascots for 115 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: you know, like the unification of sports teams. Have the 116 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 2: mascots of of Oh, I don't know, fast food chains 117 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 2: ever been utilized in this fashion, Like well, you know, 118 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 2: the Shones has been taken over by McDonald's and now 119 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: the Shonese Boy or the Shonese Bear must be combined 120 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: with elements of of you know, the Ronald MacDonald or 121 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 2: Grimace or something. 122 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 3: You know like that that is funny, but that that 123 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 3: does kind of imply a necessary competition, like between sports 124 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 3: teams or between competitors within a market space, whereas that 125 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 3: wasn't always the case for gods. I mean, like you could, 126 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 3: you know, worship multiple gods and that wasn't usually a problem. 127 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, But but here we see this this intentional attempt 128 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 2: to create a deity and create a followship of this 129 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: deity that that has stabilizing political objectives behind it. Owen 130 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 2: real quick just because this plays. And something we talk 131 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: about in the last episode is we're stressing that isis 132 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: remains a separate entity. So it's not like they just 133 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: took everything and threw it into this concept of the god. 134 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: That would be that would be too much, I imagine. 135 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: But distinct gods are combined into this entity now. According 136 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: to Lauren Murphy and Beware Greeks, bearing God's serapis as 137 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: a cross cultural deity, published in the journal Amphora in 138 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, the invented God doesn't seem to have 139 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: unified the people in any meaningful way as far as 140 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: we can tell, but it does stand as an example 141 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: of the diversity that was present in Egypt at the time. 142 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: But it was the religion of the ruling class of 143 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: foreigners and those wishing to mix with that ruling class 144 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 2: of foreigners. And also it seems like there were possible 145 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 2: connections to an inspiration via a pre Ptolemaic cult of 146 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 2: Osiris APIs, as one can see in images of Serapis, 147 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 2: he's predominantly depicted as a Greek deity, but it does 148 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: sound like there might have already been some fusion of 149 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: Osiris and APIs previously. This would not it would seem 150 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: not be out of character with Egyptian religion prior to 151 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 2: outside influence. Now, the Ptolemaic line would of course end 152 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: with its last ruler, Cleopatra, in thirty as it was, 153 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: and after this point it was absorbed by the Roman Empire. 154 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: Worship of Serapis lived on under Roman rule but experienced 155 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: eventual decline with the spread of Christianity during the fourth 156 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: century CE. I should say, like the top down mandated 157 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: spread of Christianity in particular, is the death blow to 158 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: the cult of Serapis. So if Sirapis is a kind 159 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 2: of monotheism by monopoly, he's eventually replaced by actual monotheism. 160 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 2: And I think there's some discussion of whether the worship 161 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 2: of a figure like Sirapis helped pave the way for 162 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: the rise of Christianity. I've seen that discussed, but at 163 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: the very least, it seems like there are other factors 164 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: involved here within the Roman Empire and regions affected by 165 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: the Roman Empire. 166 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: Interesting. 167 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: But anyway, that's enough on Sirapis. Let's get back to 168 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: the original deity, but then also into some of these 169 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: conversations about Osirius's possible connection with other cultural traditions. Let's 170 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: return to Osiris, right. 171 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 3: So, Rob, when we were initially looking at this topic, 172 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 3: I was asking, is there anything you wanted me to 173 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 3: look into? And what you suggested was a question that 174 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 3: I had read a little bit about before, but I 175 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 3: was quite intrigued to go deeper into. And this is 176 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 3: a question that has been widely explored in the comparative 177 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 3: study of religion. The connecting principle or lack thereof, between 178 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 3: Osiris and other gods from the ancient world, most controversially 179 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: the Christian Jesus, who are believed to in some way 180 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 3: die and then rise again, so resurrected gods. This question 181 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 3: will take us back to our old friend James G. 182 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 3: Fraser and his incredibly popular, influential and controversial work The 183 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 3: Golden Bough, which this was a book published in several 184 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 3: of over the course of a couple of decades, beginning 185 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 3: in eighteen ninety. Fraser was a Scottish scholar of religion 186 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: in folklore who lived eighteen fifty four to nineteen forty one, 187 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 3: and The Golden Bough is his best known work. In 188 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: this book, Fraser catalogs and analyzes a huge number of myths, rituals, 189 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 3: and magical beliefs from cultures around the world. So he 190 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 3: sources these observations both from like records of things believed 191 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: in the ancient world and you know, ancient myths and 192 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 3: practices in the Greco Roman world and so forth, but 193 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 3: also he sources this from ethnographic observations that people have 194 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 3: made of just beliefs and magical practices in cultures all 195 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 3: around the globe, using these observations ultimately to support his 196 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 3: broader thesis, which include the idea that the ritual and 197 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 3: mythic elements shared by most ancient religions point back to 198 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 3: an originating cult practice that involved the ritual sacrifice of 199 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 3: a holy king or guardian figure, often when his fertility 200 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 3: was waning, and the linkage of that practice to the 201 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 3: seasonal rebirth of nature and the crops. So his framework 202 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: has a core of this sacrifice of a divine figure, 203 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 3: often a divine king, and a cycle of death and 204 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 3: rebirth that has some implications for nature. You can see 205 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 3: why this would be relevant to the question at hand. Now, 206 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 3: before we get into the specifics of resurrected gods, a 207 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 3: couple of general notes on Fraser and the Golden Bow. 208 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,479 Speaker 3: I am not at all an expert in religious anthropology, 209 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 3: but my personal take on The Golden Bough is that 210 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 3: it is on one hand worth reading because it's important 211 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 3: in understanding the history of Western scholarship on comparative religion, 212 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 3: and it's also just a very absorbing and fascinating text. 213 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: But on the other hand, this is like one hundred 214 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 3: to two hundred and thirty year old book making the 215 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 3: case for a sweeping theory of world religions. And it 216 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: should be read with the caution you might expect for 217 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 3: that kind of work, So I would not take any 218 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: of its claims, specific or general, at face value without 219 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 3: checking for confirmation in other sources. I would also be 220 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 3: skeptical of his core theoretical framework, and I would just 221 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 3: warn that from research we have done on this book 222 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,599 Speaker 3: in the past, I recall discovering that some of Fraser's 223 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 3: presentation of ethnographic information about religious practices seems often tailored 224 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 3: or cherry picked to fit his theories. Now the next 225 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 3: general note, I don't know if what I'm about to 226 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 3: say is completely fair, because Fraser doesn't say the following exactly, 227 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 3: but I think one of the informal conclusions that a 228 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 3: reader is likely to take away from The Golden Bough 229 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 3: is that when it comes down to it, all religions 230 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 3: are basically the same and the differences between them are 231 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 3: incidental and superficial, which I would argue is not correct. 232 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 3: And even if that's just an unintended takeaway that people 233 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 3: would get from this book, I think that's a thing 234 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 3: that's a conclusion that I would really stress people should resist. 235 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: I do think there are common themes that you will 236 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 3: find popping up again and again in many religions, but 237 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: not all. And I also think that the differences between 238 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 3: religious beliefs and practices around the world and throughout history 239 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 3: do go quite deep. Those differences are significant, They're not 240 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 3: just superficial variations on the same thing, and some religions 241 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 3: end up serving profoundly different purposes. So personally, I wonder 242 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: if the desire to locate so much sameness or commonality 243 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 3: between different religions is something that really is not something 244 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 3: that comes out of the religions themselves, but more emerges 245 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 3: from the need of scholars to have a theory that 246 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 3: explains how religions work and where they come from, when 247 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 3: in fact, it's a very just like messy, complicated, variegated 248 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 3: phenomenon that you know, lots of different factors are at work, 249 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 3: and so it's hard to have a very simple theory 250 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: that explains where they come from. 251 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, even like the discussion we just had 252 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 2: about Serapis and Serapis's origins and all, I mean, that 253 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: doesn't fully capture what this entity may have meant and 254 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: the various additional complexities that may have been involved in 255 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: the genesis of this figure. So yeah, when you get 256 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 2: into religion, when you get into belief, and you get 257 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: into these into a process that often you know, you're 258 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 2: talking about a tradition that goes for centuries and therefore 259 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 2: has all sorts of room for change and alteration and 260 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: transformation and so forth. 261 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 3: That's right, exactly exactly, But anyway to come back to 262 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: these resurrected gods, A big part of Fraser's model was 263 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 3: that many religions of the ancient world commonly shared a 264 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 3: dying and reviving god, usually a male deity associated with fertility, 265 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 3: who undergoes a divine marriage to a fertility goddess, who 266 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 3: is then killed or sacrificed sometimes when his fertility wanes 267 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: in some way, and then rises from death to live again. 268 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 3: And this resurrection is linked to cycles of loss and 269 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 3: return in the natural and political world, such as the seasons, 270 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: the death of plants in winter and the rebirth in 271 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 3: spring and summer, the seasonal inundation of the nile, and 272 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 3: other natural cycles and political cycles like the death of 273 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 3: kings and the coronation of their heirs. So the question 274 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: is do we really find these dying and rising gods 275 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: all throughout the ancient religions Unfortunately, if you look into 276 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 3: this question, I think you find the topic horribly polluted 277 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: by a lot of motivated argumentation, primarily tracing back to 278 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 3: the question of whether Jesus of Nazareth should be thought 279 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: of of as one of these dying and rising deities. 280 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 3: So this topic is infected by both Christian apologetics and 281 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 3: anti Christian polemics. So you've got, you know, people who 282 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 3: don't like Christianity, anti Christian polemicists arguing, look, see how 283 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 3: stupid Christianity is. Jesus is just a copy of these 284 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 3: other dying and rising deities. And then you've got Christian 285 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 3: apologists arguing that no, Christianity is totally unique, it is 286 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 3: unlike any other religion on earth because it is the 287 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 3: one true religion, and all such comparisons are spurious, so 288 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: caveat that. There is a lot of that kind of 289 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 3: garbage floating around in both directions. I'm trying to do 290 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 3: my best to put together a clear and what seems 291 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 3: to me relatively unbiased answer to the question of what 292 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,239 Speaker 3: similarities exist between these alleged dying and rising gods and 293 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 3: to what extent Osiris and Jesus fit into that mold. 294 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, the real tragedy is that it just makes it 295 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: almost impossible for these two to ever hang out. 296 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, all Jesus's friends are saying, O Cyrus is just 297 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 3: trying to be like Jesus, and all of Jesus Osirus's 298 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: friends are saying Jesus is just trying to be like him. 299 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 3: Will the accusations of copying never stop? But anyway, So, 300 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 3: of course the dying and reviving deities framework was popular 301 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 3: with Fraser and his allies, so I think in the 302 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 3: early twentieth century were sort of associated with Cambridge University. 303 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 3: So I want to go through a couple of the 304 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 3: examples that Fraser cites, and then we'll get into critiques 305 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 3: of them. So one example is the god Adonis, a 306 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 3: figure in Greek myth thought to have been derived from 307 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 3: other ancient Near Eastern deities, such as the Mesopotamian god 308 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 3: of agriculture Tamuz or Dmuzi. Adonis, in many tellings, began 309 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 3: as a mortal man famed for his beauty. He was 310 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 3: sort of the pinnacle of hotness, and he was so 311 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 3: handsome that when he was young, the goddesses Aphrodite and 312 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 3: Persephone fought bitterly over whether he would live with one 313 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 3: of them or the There more on that myth in 314 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 3: a minute. But then another story is that later in 315 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 3: his life Adonis was the lover of Aphrodite until he 316 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 3: was tragically impaled by a wild bore wild hunting, so 317 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: it gets the tusk right in the guts, and so 318 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 3: he's out there dying in the wilderness on the hunt, 319 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 3: and the goddess Aphrodite comes and weeps over his body, 320 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 3: and as her tears fall and Adonis's blood runs down 321 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 3: into the earth, the ground produces delicate flowers. Sometimes a 322 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 3: specific type of flower is named, so like you know, 323 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 3: you've got in some understandings of the story, the body 324 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 3: fluids of these divine lovers combine upon the young man's 325 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 3: death and bring forth the fruits of the earth. And 326 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: to try to understand the significance of this figure, Fraser 327 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 3: starts looking at celebrations of the death of Adonis. There 328 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 3: was a festival or a sort of commemoration of the 329 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 3: death of Adonnis that was celebrated in the summertime, and 330 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 3: raz looks at accounts of this ritual. So Fraser says, 331 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 3: quote at Alexandria, images of Aphrodite and Adonis were displayed 332 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 3: on two couches. Beside them were set ripe fruits of 333 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 3: all kinds, cakes, plants growing in flower pots, and green 334 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 3: bowers twined with Annis. The marriage of the lovers was 335 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: celebrated one day, and then on the morrow, women attired 336 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 3: as mourners with streaming hair and bared breasts, bore the 337 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: image of the dead Adonnas to the seashore and committed 338 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 3: it to the waves. Yet they sorrowed not without hope, 339 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 3: for they sang that the lost one would come back again. 340 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 3: And after describing more of these rituals, Fraser says, summarizing quote, 341 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 3: we may therefore accept as probable an explanation of the 342 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 3: Adonnas worship, which accords so well with the facts of 343 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 3: nature and with the analogy of similar rites in other lands. Moreover, 344 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 3: the explanation is countenanced by a considerable body of opinion 345 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 3: amongst the ancients themselves, who again and again interpreted the 346 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 3: dying and reviving God as the reaped and sprouting grain. 347 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,719 Speaker 3: Fraser also cites Tamus, the Mesopotamian god from which Adonis 348 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: is probably derived. Tamus was the consort of the goddess 349 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 3: Inana and was also linked to crop cycles, and apparently 350 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 3: images of death and rebirth among many gods Fraser offers 351 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 3: as displaying death and resurrection. He also cites the Egyptian 352 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 3: god Osiris. Now, of course we already went over the 353 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 3: basic myth of Osiris, But what does Fraser have to 354 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 3: say about the meaning of Osiris here? So I'm going 355 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 3: to read a couple of lengthier quotes from Fraser here 356 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: on Osiris. Quote in the Resurrection of Osiris, the Egyptians 357 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 3: saw the pledge of a life everlasting for themselves beyond 358 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 3: the grave. They believed that every man would live eternally 359 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 3: in the other world if only his surviving friends did 360 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 3: for his body what the gods had done for the 361 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 3: body of Osiris. Hence, the ceremonies observed by the Egyptians 362 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 3: over the human dead were an exact copy of those 363 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 3: which Annibis, Horus, and the rest had performed over the 364 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 3: dead god. And then he goes on. At every burial 365 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 3: there was enacted a representation of the divine mystery which 366 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 3: had been performed of old over Osiris. When his son, 367 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 3: his sisters, his friends were gathered round his mangled remains 368 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 3: and succeeded by their spells and manipulations in converting his 369 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 3: broken body into the first mummy, which they afterwards reanimated 370 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 3: and furnished with the means of entering on a new 371 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: individual life beyond the grave. The mummy of the deceased 372 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 3: was Osiris. The professional female mourners were his two sisters, 373 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 3: Isis and Nepthis Annibis Horace, all the gods of the 374 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 3: Osirian legend gathered about the corpse. In this way, every 375 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 3: dead Egyptian was identified with Osiris and bore his name. 376 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 3: From the Middle Kingdom onwards, it was the regular practice 377 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 3: to address the deceased as Osiris so and so, as 378 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 3: if he were the god himself, and to add the 379 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 3: standing epithet true of speech, because true speech was characteristic 380 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 3: of Osiris. The thousands of inscribed and pictured tombs that 381 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 3: have been opened in the Valley of the Nile prove 382 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 3: that the mystery of the resurrection was performed for the 383 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: benefit of every dead Egyptian. As Osiris died and rose 384 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: again from the dead, so all men hope to arise 385 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 3: like him from death to life eternal. So there's a 386 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 3: kind of in what Fraser is implying here, there's a 387 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 3: kind of special role for Osiris, especially when compared to 388 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 3: some of these other examples of allegedly dying and reviving gods, 389 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 3: where Osiris not only in Fraser's mind dies and then 390 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 3: is brought to life again, but by re enacting what 391 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 3: happens to Osiris, he shows the way that the people 392 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 3: that regular mortals can also be revived again after death, 393 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 3: though we will add some qualification in what sense they 394 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 3: should be thought of as revived. So one thing that, 395 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 3: of course causes controversy is that among many of these examples, 396 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 3: Fraser also brings up the example of Christ, the Christian Jesus, 397 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 3: drawing direct connection between the Easter resurrection of Christ and say, 398 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 3: the rituals of Adonis. This drew scorn from conservative Christians, 399 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 3: of course, but you might expect that. But the question 400 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 3: would remain, were these comparisons sound comparisons between all these 401 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 3: different figures, And I think, after doing some additional reading, 402 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 3: I think the answer is a little bit, but mostly no. 403 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: So. 404 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 3: Later in the twentieth century, Fraser's category of dying and 405 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 3: reviving gods came under what seems to me like quite 406 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 3: legitimate criticism by other major scholars. One notable name here 407 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 3: is the American historian of religions Jonathan Z. Smith, who 408 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 3: was affiliated with the University of Chicago and direct actually 409 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 3: addressing this question of dying and reviving gods. Smith wrote 410 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 3: a highly cited entry in the Encyclopedia of Religion edited 411 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 3: by Eliade. The entry was called Dying and Rising Gods, 412 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,959 Speaker 3: and in this chapter Smith showed that really the category 413 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 3: of dying and rising gods is not much of a category, 414 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 3: in that most of the items Fraser and others placed 415 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 3: within the class are quote based on imaginative reconstructions and 416 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 3: exceedingly late or highly ambiguous texts. In other words, this 417 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 3: category emerges from reliance on questionable sources and on tortured 418 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: readings of legitimate source materials to try to fit them 419 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 3: into the resurrected god box. So how would that be 420 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 3: given what we just looked at, it seemed like Fraser 421 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 3: presented some good examples. Well, Smith says that actually, if 422 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 3: you look at the examples Fraser sites, there aren't any 423 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 3: fully dying and rising gods. Instead, you have two distinct categories. 424 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 3: One is dying gods, these are gods that die but 425 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 3: are not said to rise again from death, and the 426 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 3: other is disappearing gods. Gods that disappear and then in 427 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 3: some cases reappear sometimes quote with monotonous frequency. But the 428 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 3: disappearance is not death, and the reappearance is not resurrection. 429 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: Okay, well we have to have some examples of this. 430 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, Adonis has got you covered here, so I'm 431 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 3: going to look in detail at the example of Adonnas. 432 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 3: Smith says, there are two main myths of Adonnas that 433 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 3: we know from our sources. One is the one I 434 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 3: mentioned earlier, where Adonis is killed by a boar and 435 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 3: his lover, Aphrodite, weeps over his body and creates a 436 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 3: fragile flower. So in this myth, Adonnis dies, but he 437 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 3: does not rise. Fraser sort of allides this by connecting 438 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 3: the story to the morning celebration of Adonnas's death with 439 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 3: sort of the involvement of summer crops and plants and 440 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 3: stuff like that. But in the story, Adonnas just dies. 441 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 3: We'll get to the rituals in a second. But in 442 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 3: the story there's no resurrection, and the festival created by 443 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 3: Aphrodite to commemorate his death is a festival of mourning. 444 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 3: The other Adonnas Smith. To quote Smith, here tells of 445 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 3: quote a quarrel between two goddesses, Aphrodite and Persephone for 446 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: the affections of the infant Adonis. Zeus or Calliope decrees 447 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 3: that Adonnas should spend part of the year in the 448 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 3: upper world with one I assume with Aphrodite, and part 449 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 3: of the year in the lower world with the other. 450 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: I assume that would be Persephone. This tradition of by 451 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 3: location similar to that connected with Persephone, and perhaps DEMUSI 452 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 3: has no suggestion of death and rebirth, So you could 453 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 3: argue maybe that going into the underworld and then coming 454 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 3: back to the upper world has like resence with the 455 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 3: idea of resurrection. There's some kind of symbolic linkage. It's 456 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 3: thematically similar, but it is not literally the same thing. 457 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: Right, And I think that becomes obvious when you look 458 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: at any number of stories about characters venturing into the underworld. 459 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 2: It generally has the flavor of a physical journey, and 460 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 2: we see that even carried on into literary traditions, like 461 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 2: even in Dante's Inferno. Like Dante does not die and 462 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 2: to send into the inferno. No, he travels there. 463 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, in some important senses, he is changed, but he 464 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 3: doesn't like have to go through bodily death, right, But okay, 465 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 3: So Fraser was also looking not just at like written 466 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 3: versions of the Adonna Smith, but also at rituals to 467 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 3: see what people believed about him. So in what about 468 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 3: evidence for the resurrection of Adonnas in ritual? In terms 469 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 3: of ritual, there are later sources possibly linking Adonnas to resurrection, 470 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 3: but these sources are problematic. According to Jonathan Smith, there 471 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 3: is one allegedly second century source by Lucien that, in 472 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 3: a pretty sketchy and ambiguous way, describes rituals which could 473 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 3: be interpreted as celebrating the resurrection of Adonnas, but it's 474 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 3: not clear at all that this is what Lucian is describing. 475 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 3: To quote from Smith's summary, Lucian says, quote, on the 476 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 3: third day of the ritual, a statue of Adonnas is 477 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 3: quote brought out into the light en, quote addressed as 478 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: if alive. And I was thinking, wait a minute, but 479 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 3: aren't many cult statues addressed as if alive? 480 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and yeah. You get into a complex area 481 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: of interpretation when you figure out, like what does it 482 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: mean for someone to address a statue of a deity? 483 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 3: Right? So a cult statue may have some kind of 484 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 3: eternal existence that it is connected to, even if it 485 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 3: is an image of a god who has died, but 486 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 3: that doesn't necessarily mean if you're like talking to the statute, 487 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 3: that you believe that the God was resurrected again from death. 488 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 3: And then Smith says that there are other descriptions of 489 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 3: these rituals which do make unambiguous reference to the resurrection 490 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 3: of Adonnas, but they only show up later in the 491 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 3: Roman period, after the spread of Christianity, and they are 492 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 3: written by Christians in a way that raises questions about them, Like, so, 493 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 3: if Christians are saying that worshippers of Adonis are saying 494 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 3: Adonis was raised from the dead, is the resurrected God 495 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 3: theme of Christianity perhaps having some influence on the myth 496 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 3: of Adonis by this point, Or is the resurrected God 497 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 3: theme of Christianity influencing the way Christian observers interpret the 498 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 3: rituals of Roman pagans. 499 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: Hmm, yeah, that's a very good point, so. 500 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 3: Smith says quote this pattern will recur for many of 501 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 3: the figures considered and indigenous mythology and ritual focusing on 502 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 3: the deities death and rituals of lamentation, followed by a 503 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 3: later Christian report adding the element nowhere found in the 504 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 3: earlier native sources that the god was resurrected. I think 505 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 3: that is a very interesting pattern. So, like Christian observers 506 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 3: look at other religions and they see a dead God, 507 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 3: and it's quite possible they just assume that a dead 508 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 3: God is supposed to rise again and kind of read 509 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 3: that into the ritual. 510 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think then there's probably a case to 511 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: be made even in like the spread of Christianity and 512 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: like the reinterpretation often with you know, an agenda of tradition, 513 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: local traditions, taking existing religious traditions and sort of reframing 514 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: them in the light of the Christian religion exactly. 515 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 3: So, but what about the thing about symbolic rebirth. What 516 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 3: about the ritual and mythic association that Fraser seems to 517 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 3: allege between Adonis and plant life which dies in the 518 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 3: winter and is quote resurrected in spring. Well Smith says, 519 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 3: if you look at ancient sources, even these symbolic associations 520 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 3: are not present in the worship of Adonnas. Smith writes, 521 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 3: quote the frequently cited gardens of Adonnas the kepoi were 522 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 3: proverbial illustrations of the brief, transitory nature of life and 523 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 3: contain no hint of rebirth. The point is that the 524 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 3: young plant shoots rapidly wither and die, not that the 525 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 3: seeds have been reborn when they sprout. So I thought 526 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 3: that was also really interesting, because I would just so 527 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 3: easily and so naturally look at a sort of plant 528 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 3: based ritual celebration and assume it had something to do 529 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 3: with cycles of death and rebirth. But that's an assumption 530 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 3: that might not be what the people doing that practice 531 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 3: think it means. So Smith is saying what ancient people 532 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 3: said about these gardens was not that they were to 533 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 3: emphasize the theme of resurrection, but to emphasize the theme 534 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 3: once again of mourning and loss of the beautiful youth 535 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 3: who died too soon, just like these young plant shoots 536 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 3: that come up and then wither rapidly. I feel like 537 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 3: this kind of thing makes me a little more cautious 538 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 3: about my my myth interpretation goggles that. 539 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean absolutely. It even goes back to some 540 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: of the ways that we discussed and cited discussions of 541 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 2: osiris in the first episode. You know, thinking about how 542 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: this basic myth matches up with you know, cyclical life 543 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: and death and the agricultural cycles as well. 544 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 3: But okay, that's a donnas. What about Osiris? It seems 545 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 3: to me that of all the examples that Smith looks at, 546 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 3: Osiris comes the closest to being genuinely killed and resurrected 547 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 3: on a plane reading of the myth. But is he 548 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 3: really resurrected? Smith argues, no, Osiris is not actually resurrected, 549 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 3: because remember, of course, Osiris in story is killed and 550 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 3: dismembered by Seth or set and then the pieces of 551 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 3: his body are put back together again and he is rejuvenated, 552 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 3: but not in this world. Instead, he goes on living 553 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 3: in the other place, in the underworld, the realm of 554 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 3: the dead, where he is empowered to become the master 555 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 3: and judge of the wandering dead. So he does not 556 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 3: rise from the dead. He goes on living in the afterlife. 557 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 3: So it almost seems to me that his resurrection in 558 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 3: the afterlife could be seen as kind of synonymous with 559 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 3: his enthronement as the lord of the dead and his 560 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 3: empowerment to serve the role of judgment. 561 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. 562 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And regarding the ritual reenactment of this story in 563 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 3: Osiris worship practices. Smith says, quote the repeated formula rise up, 564 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 3: you have not died, whether applied to Osiris or a 565 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 3: citizen of Egypt, signaled a new permanent life in the 566 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 3: realm of the dead. 567 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 2: That's right, going back to what we said about the 568 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 2: idea that Osiris is ultimately kind of the opener of 569 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 2: the way that democratizes or helps propel the already existing 570 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 2: democratization of the afterlife. It's no longer just for kings. 571 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 2: It is now something that everyone has access to, provided 572 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 2: you can have the right mummification procedures performed on your 573 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 2: body exactly. 574 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 3: And so this is something that Fraser was saying where 575 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 3: I think he was sort of on the right track 576 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 3: in the case of Osiris. Smith argues that in the 577 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 3: case of Osiris, there is a clear link between myth 578 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 3: and ritual. There's the strong connection, which is something that 579 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 3: Fraser is always trying to emphasize, is the link between 580 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 3: myth and ritual and myths sort of being the story 581 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 3: like that the ritual re enacts the myth, and the 582 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 3: myth in Fraser is telling is often derived from the 583 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 3: ritual it's like a narrativizing of the ritual. But whatever 584 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 3: the actual chain of events there is in this case, 585 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 3: there is clearly a strong link between the myth and 586 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 3: the ritual, in that the mythical description of the recovery 587 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 3: and reassembly of the pieces of the body of Osiris. 588 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 3: I believe this is by Isis and his allies. This 589 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 3: is a clear parallel of the funeral rights of Egypt. 590 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 3: Smith lists these funeral rights quote the vigil over his corpse, 591 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 3: the hymns, the hymns of lamentation, the embalmment usually performed 592 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 3: by Annibis, the washing and purification of the corpse, the 593 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 3: undertaking of the elaborate ritual of the opening of the 594 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 3: mouth with its one hundred and seven separate operations, as 595 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 3: well as other procedures for reanimation, the dressing of the body, 596 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 3: and the pouring out of libations. So in a way, 597 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 3: the dead Egyptian would, in a sense, through having the 598 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 3: funeral rites performed upon their body, become Osiris, and just 599 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 3: like Osiris, though dead to this world, they would awaken 600 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 3: to a new life in another world. Smith writes, quote 601 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 3: myth ritual of Osiris emphasizes the message that there is 602 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 3: life for the dead, although it is of a different 603 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 3: character than that of the living. What is to be 604 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 3: feared is in a quote from the Book of Going 605 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 3: forth by Day. I think this is another name for 606 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 3: what is sometimes called the Book of the Dead quote, 607 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 3: dying for a second time in the realm of the dead. 608 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 3: And there are ways that, according to the story, this 609 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 3: can happen to you, for example, being devoured by the lion, hippopotamus, 610 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 3: crocodile monster am it in the underworld. 611 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, we've talked a little bit about the 612 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 2: complexity of the of the ancient Egyptian afterlife before where 613 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 2: it's it's it's not just as it's not something you 614 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 2: could compare just sort of like the sort of mainstream 615 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 2: vision of a Christian heaven. It is a place where 616 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 2: you're probably going to need your spells, You're going to 617 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 2: need your followers, You're going to need tools and a 618 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 2: plan in order to make the best go of. 619 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 3: It, exactly right, You have to prepare. It's not just 620 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 3: that you have to be worthy of the afterlife, but 621 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 3: like in some visions, it takes like work to get there. 622 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is, of course, this is not just 623 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 2: an ancient different religion. There are various examples we can 624 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 2: turn to where like that journey between this life and 625 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 2: the next is one that is perilous and has to 626 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: go just right another in order to work right. 627 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 3: So it seems to me that of the examples Fraser 628 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 3: brings up Osyrius maybe comes the closest or is one 629 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 3: of the closer ones to being a true dying and 630 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 3: reviving god. But even in his case, there's a pretty 631 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 3: strong conceptual distinction of of what the new life is 632 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 3: that makes calling this a resurrection somewhat strained. So after 633 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 3: analyzing all of the most prominent cases of alleged dying 634 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 3: and reviving gods, Smith concludes as follows quote as the 635 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,720 Speaker 3: above examples make plain, the category of dying and rising 636 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 3: deities is exceedingly dubious. It has been based largely on 637 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 3: Christian interest and ten evidence. As such, the category is 638 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 3: of more interest to the history of scholarship than to 639 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 3: the history of religions. And so that might kind of 640 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 3: make you think, like, ah, well, then who cares? But 641 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 3: I think it is actually very illustrative that you can 642 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 3: see this category sort of emerge where with scholars trying 643 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,240 Speaker 3: to make sense of all these different stories and rituals 644 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 3: and stuff and putting all these gods and figures from 645 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 3: myths into the category, and ultimately, if you look really close, 646 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 3: it's not a super cohesive category. And a lot of 647 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 3: the things, maybe all the things put into it don't 648 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 3: really fit and don't have as much in common as 649 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 3: the scholar is claiming they do. And if Smith is 650 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 3: correct here, I find his case pretty convincing. If he's 651 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 3: correct about this being largely based on Christian interest by 652 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 3: scholars from Christian cultures, I think that's also illuminating that 653 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 3: like dominant sort of story themes within your culture that 654 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 3: seem very familiar to you just kind of naturally manifest 655 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 3: when looking at ambiguously similar things in other cultural contexts. 656 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I mean at times this can be 657 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 2: a very useful exercise and either helping us to get 658 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 2: a leg up on understanding another culture or another system 659 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 2: of beliefs. It can also be a frame of commonality. 660 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,959 Speaker 2: It can be very positive in terms of like seeing 661 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 2: the similarities rather than differences. But yeah, when you get 662 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 2: into like this deeper attempt to understand the religion, you 663 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 2: could see where some of it could cast too much 664 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 2: of a shadow on your interpretation of this other way 665 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 2: of looking at the cosmos. 666 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 3: I think that's right. But then on the other hand, 667 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 3: I want to come back and say, we shouldn't stop 668 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 3: looking at similarities between religions, because there are similarities. Like 669 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,920 Speaker 3: Smith says, yeah, this dying and reviving God category doesn't 670 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 3: make a whole lot of sense, but there are these 671 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 3: other patterns you can see, like dying gods. There are 672 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 3: a bunch of dying god myths that have interesting things 673 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 3: in common, and you could kind of look at like, 674 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 3: why do they have these things in common that that's 675 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 3: worth studying. You also have this pattern of the disappearing 676 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 3: and sometimes reappearing god myth. What does that tell us 677 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 3: about religions? You can look at these similarities, and so 678 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 3: it's also not unreasonable to look at similarities between Christianity, 679 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 3: a religion that certainly does have a dying and reviving God, 680 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,280 Speaker 3: with some of these other religions. And so one source 681 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 3: that came across that I thought made a very interesting 682 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 3: point A was a chapter called Resurrection in Ancient Egypt 683 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 3: by the German egyptologist Jan Osman, who has plenty of 684 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 3: his own ideas. He's pushing about like the lineage of 685 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 3: certain types of resurrection beliefs. I think ultimately he thinks 686 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 3: that a lot of these beliefs have an original source 687 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 3: in Egyptian religion and then spread out to other places. 688 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 3: But regardless of whether he's correct about that, I think 689 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 3: he makes a very good point about a similarity between 690 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 3: belief in Christ and the earlier belief in Osiris, which, 691 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 3: on one hand, you have plenty of differences, like the 692 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 3: death of Jesus is a one time event that is 693 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 3: situated within history. It said, like, you know, well, he's 694 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 3: a man who existed at a certain time and place 695 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 3: in history, and so it's like his death is a 696 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 3: historical event, not something that takes place within a kind 697 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 3: of mythic time or a within a mythic landscape. But 698 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 3: on the other hand, you could look at the deaths 699 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 3: and revivals of these two god figures. Is having a 700 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 3: lot in common in that, as Osman says, quote, through 701 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 3: his death and resurrection, Christ has paved the way to 702 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 3: Paradise or Elysium in a way not altogether dissimilar from 703 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 3: that of Osiris, who also threw his victory over Seth 704 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 3: opened a realm beyond the realm of death. The decisive 705 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 3: common denominator of Christianity and ancient Egyptian religion is the 706 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 3: idea of redemption from death, that beyond the realm of death, 707 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 3: there is an Elysian realm of eternal life in the 708 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 3: presence of the divine. So in both cases you can 709 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 3: look at these gods as gods who were killed and 710 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 3: then in some sense revived. Christ is said to be 711 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 3: revived onto earth and then ascends into heaven. Osiris has 712 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 3: revived and made lord a lord of the underworld and 713 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 3: judge of the dead. But in both cases they open 714 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 3: the way for people to have a sort of heaven again. 715 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 3: Want to, you know, put the star on heaven there 716 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 3: and say it means different things in the two different concepts, 717 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 3: but it is a positive afterlife that is now available 718 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 3: to the people. 719 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. In both cases, the individual is the opener 720 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 2: of the way, you know, and the Ptolemies might come 721 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 2: along and say, you know, we have this guy named 722 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,240 Speaker 2: Serapis and he does all. 723 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 3: Of this as well, perfect give me all three Yeah, well, 724 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 3: he's got a dog. Wait now? Was He often depicted 725 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 3: as having Cerberus by his side, like having a three 726 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 3: headed pup or. Is that just a unique feature of 727 00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 3: that sculpture. 728 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 2: I mean, based on the remaining images of Serapis, it 729 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,240 Speaker 2: does seem like it seemed like he is sometimes depicted 730 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,879 Speaker 2: with Cerberus, and I believe that that is simply because, Yeah, 731 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 2: if you are going to take this character of Osiris, 732 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,839 Speaker 2: who is a god of the underworld, and you're going 733 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 2: to spin him into this very Greek themed model, well 734 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,399 Speaker 2: then you're going to drag in Hades, and you're going 735 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 2: to drag in like this key example of sort of 736 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,720 Speaker 2: in a way summing up this idea of the taming 737 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 2: of death right. So that's my understanding of it. But 738 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,439 Speaker 2: I certainly have seen other depictions of him that don't 739 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 2: have the dog present. All right, Well, on that note, 740 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 2: I believe we're going to go ahead and close the 741 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 2: book on Osiris here with the caveat that. I'm not 742 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 2: sure what the next core episode is going to be, 743 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 2: but we were throwing around the idea of doing something 744 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 2: that was still kind of Osiris, but is not Osiris 745 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 2: Part three. So just I don't know. You'll have to 746 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 2: see what happens. You'll see what happens as well. Okay, 747 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 2: in the meantime, we'd love to hear from everyone out there. 748 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 2: If you have thoughts on this two parter, if you 749 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 2: have thoughts on past episodes or potential future episodes, write in. 750 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:12,800 Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you. Just to remind 751 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 2: us that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a 752 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 2: science and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 753 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 2: but on Mondays we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we 754 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 2: do a short form episode, and on Fridays we set 755 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird 756 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 2: movie on Weird House Cinema. 757 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,800 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway. 758 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:32,719 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 759 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 760 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 761 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 762 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 763 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,920 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 764 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,800 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 765 00:45:54,960 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.