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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Dana Perkins, and you're listening to Switch It

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Speaker 1: on the BENF podcast. In today's episode, my colleague Ethan Zidler,

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Speaker 1: who is B and e f's head of America's interviews

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Speaker 1: Secretary Jennifer Granholm, United States Secretary of Energy. She is

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Speaker 1: the sixteenth Secretary of Energy and was sworn in on

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Speaker 1: the February, just a couple of months ago. One of

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Speaker 1: Secretary Grandholme's goals while at the d OE includes helping

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Speaker 1: the United States achieve President Biden's goal of net zero

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Speaker 1: carbon emissions by She plans to do this through advancing

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Speaker 1: cutting edge clean energy technologies and creating millions of clean

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Speaker 1: energy jobs. Definitely something we want to hear more about

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Speaker 1: at B and EF. This interview is from the thirteenth

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Speaker 1: of April and took place during B and f's New

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Speaker 1: York Summit, which is focused on where energy, finance, and

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Speaker 1: technology converge. The New York Summit is one of six

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Speaker 1: B and F summits taking place around the world, and

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Speaker 1: for more detail on this and other summits, head to

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Speaker 1: about dot BNF dot com Forward Slash Summit. As a

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Speaker 1: quick reminder, B in the F does not provide investment

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Speaker 1: strategy advice. And you can hear our complete disclaimer at

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Speaker 1: the end of the show. But for now, let's hear

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Speaker 1: Ethan's interview with Secretary Grandholm. Secretary Grahame, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us today. It's great to have you here

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Speaker 1: at the Bloomberg any F Summit. We've we've now had

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Speaker 1: your four predecessors in your current job, and so it's

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Speaker 1: wonderful to have you as the fifth come here today

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Speaker 1: and speak with us. End event for sure. For any

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Speaker 1: Energy Secretary, thanks very much. I think just to get

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Speaker 1: us started, I'd like to give you an open ended one,

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Speaker 1: maybe tell us a little bit about what you see

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Speaker 1: as the administration's priorities as far as energy and clean

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Speaker 1: energy and sustainability over the next two for potentially eight

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Speaker 1: years well as as you can imagine, not really a surprise.

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Speaker 1: The administration is obviously very focused on making sure that

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Speaker 1: we have clean energy future. So those goals that y'all

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Speaker 1: have talked about, I'm sure and that everybody's heard about

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Speaker 1: clean electricity by and net zero carbon emissions by twenty

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Speaker 1: four by via has everybody pointing in the same direction,

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Speaker 1: and that includes departments that aren't even necessarily related to

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Speaker 1: clean energy at all. Um. But everybody has to do

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Speaker 1: their part. Whether it's the federal government leading by example

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Speaker 1: by creating a market for for clean energy products for

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Speaker 1: its use itself and installing them like through the Department

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Speaker 1: of Defense, or whether it's the Department of State using

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Speaker 1: clean energy diplomacy as a way of being able to

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Speaker 1: partner with with countries. It's certainly true with the Department

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Speaker 1: of Transportation, as we've seen with the effort to electrify

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Speaker 1: the nation's highways. It's certainly true with the efforts through

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Speaker 1: the Department of Commerce to build up an entire clean

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Speaker 1: energy sect DIR and manufacture the products for our future

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Speaker 1: in in that sector here in America. So the bottom

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Speaker 1: line is, every single department is something to offer. This

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Speaker 1: administration is focused on clean energy means jobs, and we

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Speaker 1: want to create good paying jobs in every corner of

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Speaker 1: the country and have those jobs really be a means

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Speaker 1: to lift up communities that have been left behind or

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Speaker 1: that have been the victims of power plant pollution where

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Speaker 1: their children might not even be able to take a

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Speaker 1: breath without an inhaler um. So it's really about equity

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Speaker 1: and jobs and deployment of clean energy. So I figured

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Speaker 1: you were going to say something about jobs, which is

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Speaker 1: a useful save into your American Jobs Plan, which of

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Speaker 1: course was announced with a good deal fantier. I think

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Speaker 1: three weeks ago, now two weeks ago. The two point

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Speaker 1: three trillion dollars is the number that's been reported in

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Speaker 1: terms of the dollar. The j P is a seems

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Speaker 1: like it's more of a manifesto than an actual piece

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Speaker 1: of legislation, and sort of a statement of request and

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Speaker 1: intent to Congress. If I understand that right, and I

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Speaker 1: have some questions about it, but maybe one kind of

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Speaker 1: specific one. I know it's kind of in the weeds,

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Speaker 1: but it's very important to our audience. Is it talks

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Speaker 1: about a ten year extension of key tax credits for

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Speaker 1: renewables and for energy storage. Currently storage can only get

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Speaker 1: a tax credit it's attached to renewables. Is that the

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Speaker 1: administration's position that you're supportive of standalone storage also getting

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Speaker 1: a tax credit or is it gonna have to continue

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Speaker 1: to be want together with a with a solar project.

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Speaker 1: Would say no, I mean, I think the administration is

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Speaker 1: supportive of tax credits for for battery technology, whether it's

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Speaker 1: attached or whether it's obviously utility scale, you name it.

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Speaker 1: We we want to see battery technology develop and deploy,

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Speaker 1: and you know, at the d OE we're focused on,

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Speaker 1: you know, continuing to bring down the price of batteries

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Speaker 1: and finding substitutes for lithium, for example. We're also really

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Speaker 1: interested in developing a full on supply chain, you see

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Speaker 1: that in the American Job's plan as well, to be

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Speaker 1: able to mine responsibly, of course, for critical materials that

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Speaker 1: we know we've got beneath are the surface of so

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Speaker 1: many pockets of this country, whether it's lithium or cobalt,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, the bottom line is we can

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Speaker 1: do that, and we can do it responsibly. We can

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Speaker 1: even process responsibly, but we've got to get the ball

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Speaker 1: rolling to create that supply chain. I mean, you know

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Speaker 1: you're you're speaking to me on a week where the

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Speaker 1: administration is convening people from the automotive industry because we

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Speaker 1: have lost the ability to produce in this country semi conductors. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, if we can't produce the means to our

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Speaker 1: energy and dependence through batteries or the ability to build

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Speaker 1: e vs because we don't have enough semi conductor then

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Speaker 1: we really lost as a nation out on on our

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Speaker 1: own independence are economic independence. So you know, some stuff

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Speaker 1: is not going to be built here. But I'm telling

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Speaker 1: you these critical components, these critical supplies that we know

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Speaker 1: we need for our own energy we have to look

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Speaker 1: at that as a you know, as a real moment

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Speaker 1: for America. If we decide we want to have the

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Speaker 1: means to our own energy independence, we've got to build

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Speaker 1: that stuff here, and that may mean that we've got

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Speaker 1: to invest a bit to make that happen. So the

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Speaker 1: bottom line is, I think whether it's tax credits, whether

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Speaker 1: it's refundable tax credits, tax credits that can be monetized

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Speaker 1: up front or uh and or over the period of time.

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Speaker 1: But that's still all subject to negotiation. Clearly in Congress

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Speaker 1: with the American Jobs Plan has laid out a framework

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Speaker 1: of what things should look like. But hopefully we have

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Speaker 1: robust support for battery storage for energy storage. Well, first,

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Speaker 1: thanks for that clarification. I realized we do right into

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Speaker 1: the weeds. But but I think that's an important one.

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Speaker 1: Are certainly to a lot of folks attend our conference

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Speaker 1: for sure, to zoom out a little bit more on that. Though.

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Speaker 1: The Job's Plan also really because a very quick mentioned

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Speaker 1: to some kind of a national energy efficiency and clean

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Speaker 1: energy standard, and of course, as you mentioned that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the President's ran on the promise of decarbonizing the US

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Speaker 1: power sector entirely by and we're still at the moment

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Speaker 1: coal and gas production in the US totally with the

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Speaker 1: understanding that CONVERSS is going to have to hash this out.

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Speaker 1: You know, how do you see d OE interfacing and

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Speaker 1: being involved in a clean energy standard? Because I did

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Speaker 1: notice that there's also some money allocated in the proposed

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Speaker 1: budget for d OE to help oversee a potential clean

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Speaker 1: energy standard. How do you envision something like that coming together? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's so much of it depends on how

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Speaker 1: it is crafted, right, you know, the question about whether

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Speaker 1: you can get a clean energy standard through regular order

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Speaker 1: or reconciliation, all of that is still remains to be seen, right,

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Speaker 1: But there's also a way to consider crafting something that

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Speaker 1: provides incentives to the states to be able to make

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Speaker 1: that happen. Also, so that might be another venue in

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Speaker 1: the same way that we did race to the top

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Speaker 1: to create high school standards in education. You know, some

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Speaker 1: carrots sometimes makes states go a long way and then

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Speaker 1: there's the other sort of big goal out there, which

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Speaker 1: is the net zero carbon emission by and maybe some

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Speaker 1: states would prefer something like that, And the bottom line

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Speaker 1: is that's still subject to negotiation. And I know it's

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Speaker 1: important to a lot of numbers of Congress. But if

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Speaker 1: we don't create demand, we have to create demand and supply.

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Speaker 1: You can't put the cart of supply before the horse

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Speaker 1: of demand. You've got to go down both paths. And

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Speaker 1: the Clean Energy Standard is one way to do that. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: that's true with building standards. It's true with the federal

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Speaker 1: government creating demand by purchasing itself for its own usage.

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Speaker 1: So we have to create both supply demand its c

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Speaker 1: S or you know, and energy efficiency as well. Is

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Speaker 1: a way to do that. That's a really really intriguing

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Speaker 1: so so and I know, I know this is all

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Speaker 1: we're all into the realm of the hypothetical here, but

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Speaker 1: it sounds like the one potential ideas to give states

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to try and craft something to work towards

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Speaker 1: something that would then add up to a national clean

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Speaker 1: energy standard. If I hear you, Yeah, I've heard people

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Speaker 1: talk about that. I mean, I think there's still are

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Speaker 1: versions of a clean Energy standard that work for silent

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Speaker 1: reconciliation rules. So you know, I mean, I think that's

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Speaker 1: an opportunity. And you know, you can see how committed

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Speaker 1: this administration is to doing clean Energy Standard even through

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Speaker 1: the d OE f y twenty two budgets that it

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Speaker 1: put out the skinny budget. So you know, bottom line is,

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Speaker 1: no decisions have really been made on exactly how it's

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Speaker 1: going to be working, but I think that they are

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Speaker 1: open to figuring out ways that make it work for

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Speaker 1: the pockets of this country that might have concerns about

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Speaker 1: a c E s and for the pockets of this

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Speaker 1: country that have already really lead by example and can

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Speaker 1: still bump it up a notch. So I'll pause to

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Speaker 1: just to give a slight Washington translation to our non

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Speaker 1: Washington people about what reconciliation means. The sitaris is talking

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Speaker 1: about reconciliation that is process by which you can pass

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Speaker 1: something essentially with fifty plus one vote, and regular order

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Speaker 1: as it's known, requires sixty votes. And one of the

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Speaker 1: open questions, I think that's out there. It's paraphrase you,

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Speaker 1: and apologies if I'm getting wrong, but is that there's

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Speaker 1: some question as to whether or not a clean energy

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Speaker 1: standard technically that could be considered under reconciliation and thus

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Speaker 1: could pass with fifty plus one, it may need sixty

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Speaker 1: and I think that's an open question at this point.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, for those who are not inside baseball followers

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Speaker 1: that did want at least clarify what this, what those

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Speaker 1: terms actually that before we moved on now for a

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Speaker 1: very short break, stay with us. Let's talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more, if you could, about the jobs And you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that Job's plan talks makes a

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Speaker 1: number of mentions of unionized labor. And obviously, as a

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Speaker 1: former governor of Michigan, you're very familiarized familiar with the

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Speaker 1: importance of the unionized labor. There's actually relatively little unized

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Speaker 1: labor and most clean energy manufacturing today. And I guess

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Speaker 1: my question for you is, are you at all concerned

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Speaker 1: that if you put certain labor provisions in place, that

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Speaker 1: you might actually raise some of the cost of manufacturing

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Speaker 1: of some of these key goods and that might slow

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Speaker 1: their deployment. Well, here's what I would say, is, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that we have for a very

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Speaker 1: long time bowed to the altar of cost only in

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Speaker 1: manufacturing in general, and we have to decide I think

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Speaker 1: we want to do. Obviously, you want power to be

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Speaker 1: inexpensive and you want it to be reliable and all

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Speaker 1: of that. But you know, we created this Office of

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Speaker 1: Energy Jobs at inside of d OE to help us

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Speaker 1: ensure that all of the announcements that we are coming

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Speaker 1: out with, and we've we've actually announced over five hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollars in funding announcements and grants since the start,

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Speaker 1: since inauguration day, UM d OE has and we are

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Speaker 1: dead I mean in the Biden administration too, is is

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Speaker 1: UM dead set on plastic passing the American Jobs Plan?

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Speaker 1: And when we make those kinds of investments in infrastructure,

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Speaker 1: you know, we obviously employ the private contractors to do

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Speaker 1: be targeted and who we want to work with, and

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Speaker 1: the ability to require prevailing wages and better rights for

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Speaker 1: workers in those contracts. And as you've seen in the

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Speaker 1: American Jobs Plan, the President is committed to connecting clean

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Speaker 1: energy incentives to labor standards, as you've mentioned, and to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the energy sector does a better job

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Speaker 1: of this. And there are a lot of tools to

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Speaker 1: do this that have been used in this energy sector

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Speaker 1: in the more traditional power plants side, like project labor

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Speaker 1: agreements that employers can use if we pursue a goal

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Speaker 1: of a clean energy workforce that looks like America and

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Speaker 1: includes access for all Americans. So we want to use

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Speaker 1: those strategies when we pass the American Job's Plan and

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Speaker 1: put it into action. You know, the federal government, for example,

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Speaker 1: uses fifty giga watts of power every year, and if

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Speaker 1: we want to buy power, we want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that that power has been generated through wages that are prevailing,

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Speaker 1: wages that are decent wages for people. So I want

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Speaker 1: to I think we all want to see this sector

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Speaker 1: not be considered a sector that is not desirable for

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Speaker 1: people to move into. I know, obviously the folks who

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Speaker 1: are in the sector know that and believe that hopefully

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Speaker 1: as well. But especially when you consider transitioning communities, communities

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Speaker 1: that were fossil communities and and now see coal plants

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Speaker 1: having retired and power plants shutting down, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of those workers in those communities may have been um

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Speaker 1: members of the coal miners or the electrical workers, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there they are used to having decent wages,

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Speaker 1: and so it's you know, the notion of somebody having

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Speaker 1: a decent wage and then all of a sudden, I

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Speaker 1: have been switching over to or we're offering, hey, you

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Speaker 1: can transition over to this particular sector, but you'll be

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Speaker 1: making about half of what you were making before. You know.

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Speaker 1: That's a hard that's a hard thing to do too.

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Speaker 1: So there's a balance in there, and I think that

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Speaker 1: we can achieve that as a nation. And we think

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Speaker 1: that clean energy can be good paying for the people

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Speaker 1: who are working in it, and we want to make

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Speaker 1: sure that it's good paying and that the rates are affordable,

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Speaker 1: and the United States government is willing to put a

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Speaker 1: lot of money into upfront reducing some of the capital

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Speaker 1: costs so that we can make it affordable totally. Switching

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Speaker 1: games for just one second. You mentioned earlier about a

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Speaker 1: long term goal of CEO two reduction, and there's been

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Speaker 1: some reporting about potential new US target. I won't I

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Speaker 1: won't ask you to comment on it, but just a

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Speaker 1: question more broadly, which is on the international discussions as

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Speaker 1: we try to internationally get other countries to cut their

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Speaker 1: missions and make new promises going into the the COP

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Speaker 1: twenty six negotiations at the end of the year other countries,

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Speaker 1: don't you think they have a right to say, hey us,

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Speaker 1: You know, you guys talk a good game, but you

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Speaker 1: know the last four years you've done absolutely nothing. So

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Speaker 1: how can we believe any promise you're gonna make unless

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Speaker 1: you actually legislate something at all? For sure, it's a

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Speaker 1: great question. Absolutely. I mean, what you know, what we

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Speaker 1: can get on our moral high ground when we have uh,

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Speaker 1: we we have not been able to do what we're

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Speaker 1: asking others to do. So yeah, this is another reason

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Speaker 1: why it's so important to pass the American Jobs Plan,

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Speaker 1: is to make sure that in fact we can legitimately

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Speaker 1: go to Glasgow and say, look what we have done.

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Speaker 1: Look at the cards we have put on the table,

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Speaker 1: look at the commitments that we have made, Look at

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Speaker 1: how much we are willing to do this um and

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Speaker 1: by the way, it has the benefit of being able

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Speaker 1: to create jobs in America. So I certainly don't want

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Speaker 1: to discount that because I as Energy Secretariacy, this is

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Speaker 1: a well huge jobs play for us. But but for

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Speaker 1: the purpose of stating goals that allow us to call

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Speaker 1: others to state higher goals, to absolutely you are a

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Speaker 1: hundred percent right. I've been meeting with my counterparts in

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Speaker 1: other countries. I've just met with the um my counterpart

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Speaker 1: in South Korea this morning, and we have a big,

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Speaker 1: you know, effort that's gonna that's being led by John

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Speaker 1: Kerry as part of the Global Climate Leaders Summit, and

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Speaker 1: we want people to be announcing their interim goals and

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Speaker 1: to be finalizing them by the time they get to Glasgow.

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Speaker 1: But you've got we've got to you know, we we've

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Speaker 1: got to do what we need to do as a

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Speaker 1: country as well in order to be able to have

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Speaker 1: any credibility on the national stage. Thanks for that, and

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Speaker 1: I think the time for basically one more question, and

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Speaker 1: this is more it maybe a little more personal, which

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Speaker 1: is you know, I'm struck by the as I said,

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Speaker 1: we've had the last four energy secretaries come to our conference,

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Speaker 1: and I'm struck by the very heterogeneous nature of the

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Speaker 1: people of help help this job. In the past, there's

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Speaker 1: been at one point the industry executive, a Nobel Prize winner,

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Speaker 1: the governor of the largest oil producing state, and a

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Speaker 1: former governor of larger soil producing state. You know, you

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Speaker 1: you come from a state that's a major industrial player

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Speaker 1: in terms of manufacturing and energy usage. Maybe tell me

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Speaker 1: a little bit about you know what you think that

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Speaker 1: it is that you bring to this job that's different

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Speaker 1: and unique in terms of perspective and leadership than some

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Speaker 1: of those bulks have had the job in the past.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think the reason why Joe Biden asked

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Speaker 1: me to be Energy Secretary is because I was the

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Speaker 1: governor of a state that predominantly made a product that

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Speaker 1: was attached to fossil fuels, the internal combustion engine. I

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Speaker 1: was governor of the auto industry, and in that I

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Speaker 1: was governor during the time when the auto industry went bankrupt,

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Speaker 1: when the suppliers to the auto industry went bankrupt. I

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Speaker 1: have looked into the eyes of people who, through no

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Speaker 1: fault of their own, had the rug pulled out from

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Speaker 1: under them, and I get how hard it is when

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Speaker 1: it's in people's d n a to transition to something new.

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Speaker 1: But we said, look at we have built this internal

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Speaker 1: combustion engine. There were a lot of international imports coming

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Speaker 1: in threatening the auto industry. We needed to diversify to

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Speaker 1: build Car two point oh, which is the electric vehicle,

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Speaker 1: and the guts to that vehicle, which of course is

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Speaker 1: the battery. I said, and this was that we were

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Speaker 1: a little ahead of our time. It was was obviously

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and ten, but we did do that.

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Speaker 1: And now GM has, you know, said it's going to

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Speaker 1: electrify its entire fleet. And the point being is that

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Speaker 1: I understand how critical it is for states, especially fossil

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Speaker 1: fuel states, to diversify into areas that will give their

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Speaker 1: people a future so the young people don't move away.

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Speaker 1: I I our whole emphasis beside the auto industry was

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Speaker 1: to diversify into clean energy and to create the opportunity

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Speaker 1: for us to manufacture things like wind turbines and solar panels.

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Speaker 1: And of course I've also seen how we have the

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Speaker 1: results of a country that has said we're just going

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Speaker 1: to chase the lowest cost and what that does for

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Speaker 1: jobs and the manufacturing sector, meaning that our manufacturing sector

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Speaker 1: is now at a seventy two year low. We've dropped

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Speaker 1: for seventy two years, and it's just, you know, we

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Speaker 1: can decide that that's fine, and then we will at

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Speaker 1: other countries, you know, eat us for lunch. And I

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Speaker 1: think I was asked to do this, and this is

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Speaker 1: why what I bring to this is a total understanding

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Speaker 1: about the job opportunities in this clean energy sector, that

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Speaker 1: it is a twenty three trillion dollar global market in

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Speaker 1: the next ten years, and that the US can say

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Speaker 1: to China and others, you can have it, or we

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Speaker 1: can get in the game to be able to create

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Speaker 1: jobs for our country, for our people. And so I

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Speaker 1: am bullish on on making us do that. And I

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Speaker 1: just want to close because I know we're out of time,

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Speaker 1: but let me just close with a pitch. We the

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Speaker 1: the entire federal government, but especially the Department of Energy.

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Speaker 1: We want to work with you. If you have a project,

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Speaker 1: if you have a product that you want to take

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Speaker 1: to scale, we want to partner with you and encourage

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Speaker 1: you to locate that product in communities that have been

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Speaker 1: left behind. If we can help to make it worth

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Speaker 1: your We want you to call us. We want to

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Speaker 1: generate economic opportunity and hope in places where we have

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Speaker 1: great workforce and people who are decent people, but who

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Speaker 1: haven't been given a chance. And so call us because

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Speaker 1: we will help to make a deal with you. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for that. So phone lines are open, folks, you heard that, Secretary, Grandam,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate getting your perspective and and we're gonna get the

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Speaker 1: early inviting to get you to come back again next year.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so m all right, I love it, Thanks so much.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was edited by Rex Warner

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