Speaker 1: Well, well, well we are back. We are back from
Speaker 1: our our holiday hiatus. We're ready to hit you with
Speaker 1: another set of clips, so get ready. We're not I forgot.
Speaker 1: It's so funny listening back to those because we were babies. No,
Speaker 1: it was just like literally earlier this year. It's crazy
Speaker 1: that it hasn't been a year. It has not been
Speaker 1: here yet, which may be crazy. It's been in your
Speaker 1: for culture kings now, but we still got it. I
Speaker 1: think baptism by fire whatever it is, just thrown to
Speaker 1: the did it we did? Yeah, we're we're here. We're back,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about The Punisher. Wait, no, what is
Speaker 1: the show? If he said the show, welcome to Nerdificent
Speaker 1: I am if you and that other delicious voice that
Speaker 1: sounds weird want to say, but I'm gonna stick with
Speaker 1: that other delicious voice. You is Danny Fernandez. And uh,
Speaker 1: we are talking about The Punisher because The Punisher has
Speaker 1: a new has season two dropping on Netflix this weekend.
Speaker 1: This is not an ad for them at all, but please,
Speaker 1: if you would like to comp our Netflix, it's like
Speaker 1: five dollars. Look, you know, I'm down with it because
Speaker 1: someone I don't know if you saw that tweet where
Speaker 1: someone was like, Hey, I'm getting ready to go see
Speaker 1: d v Z Browley and I have never seen a
Speaker 1: dragon Ball Z ever. So I got to listen to
Speaker 1: the dragon Ball episode and it got me up to speed,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, great, but what a way to jump
Speaker 1: in from just early dragon Ball dragon Ball Z and
Speaker 1: go straight into Browley. You're you're in for a real treat,
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be to go back from that if
Speaker 1: I think I've told you. But people get mad because
Speaker 1: like my friends will be like, where can I where
Speaker 1: should I start? I'm like, well you could, you know,
Speaker 1: you could do Kai or you could dragon Ball Z
Speaker 1: Kai or you could and people like no, they have
Speaker 1: to go from the beginning. Goku was a big you know,
Speaker 1: it's like with dragon Ball, and like, well, you're not
Speaker 1: gonna get people. I mean I think you could. Technically
Speaker 1: even just watching you get you caught up. All the
Speaker 1: important parts of dragon Ball are recapped in Z. You
Speaker 1: can start with Z if you want to, and Z
Speaker 1: is pretty much where the thick newest cannon is, where
Speaker 1: the adults are, and where vegeta vegeta doesn't exist. Um,
Speaker 1: so we we have a guest who as an expert
Speaker 1: on The Punisher and on many things. He has a show,
Speaker 1: UM Collider Heroes over at Collider, Mr Koy, Jon Drow,
Speaker 1: How's hey, how's it going? Gita is where dragon Ball
Speaker 1: is hurt? For me, it's over nine thousand as the
Speaker 1: beginning of dragon Ball before that is something, but is
Speaker 1: really This is why I brought you on here, and
Speaker 1: because last year when The Punisher came out on Netflix,
Speaker 1: we were messaging each other so much. We have a
Speaker 1: love of John Burnthal and UM and that show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we would just send each other memes like I'm so
Speaker 1: glad I had somebody else at like one am when
Speaker 1: I was watching the show to send it to, because
Speaker 1: nobody else in my life cared as much. We always
Speaker 1: responded so quickly, like somehow we were both always watching
Speaker 1: Punisher at the same time, like it's a full show,
Speaker 1: but sometimes always like two in the morning, John burn Tall, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll respond to this, and I was always ready with
Speaker 1: new ones. I think I sent you a picture like
Speaker 1: a John burn Thall like Punisher toy in the Christmas
Speaker 1: tree or something. And then it turned into Tom Hardy
Speaker 1: holding puppies because the poppy transition, because two rugged men
Speaker 1: with their dogs. There is an entire Instagram that's just
Speaker 1: Tom Hardy holding puppies. I show as many people that
Speaker 1: as I can. I think it's really important for the culture.
Speaker 1: I think that the comic society needs to know. Let
Speaker 1: me tell you that this was my official introduction kind
Speaker 1: of to the I mean the Punisher. I think I
Speaker 1: had seen the two thousand and four films that when
Speaker 1: it came Jane Yes with Thomas Jane, which we'll get into,
Speaker 1: but I um, I basically was introduced to him really
Speaker 1: in uh In when he showed up in Daredevil on Netflix,
Speaker 1: and and it made me like John Burnthal so much
Speaker 1: that I went back and watched The Walking Dead, which
Speaker 1: I had never seen, just because I liked him. That's
Speaker 1: that's start of the opposite of most people. I discovered
Speaker 1: Parks and Wreck because I enjoyed nick A from in
Speaker 1: the author. Yeah. I seen Parks and I was like,
Speaker 1: this guy writes some good books. Who's this? I mean,
Speaker 1: what's really funny is I've done because um coy you
Speaker 1: and if you have both competed on screen Junkies and stuff,
Speaker 1: and I have also competed on screen Junkies and um
Speaker 1: one for series that I don't even watch, which I
Speaker 1: watched now, but like it's just because it's so in
Speaker 1: the zeitguys and I live online that I wasn't watching
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones, and I won my Game of Thrones
Speaker 1: around against people that actually did just because I know
Speaker 1: all the memes and the jokes. And that was the
Speaker 1: same with The Walking Dead, where I never really had
Speaker 1: to watch it to know what was going on. And
Speaker 1: there's an art to arguing about pop culture that a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't realize. You need to know how
Speaker 1: to shape things, like I thought both of you and
Speaker 1: both like you did you both, and we're all still
Speaker 1: friends here on purpose. See that's what That's what happens
Speaker 1: when you fight good. It's an honor. So I've I
Speaker 1: discovered Punisher in the nineties with the Spiderman animated series,
Speaker 1: so I was like five or seven, I think I started,
Speaker 1: so i'd have been like seven years old, and Punisher
Speaker 1: was one of those characters that didn't make sense in
Speaker 1: that show at all because you couldn't really shoot guns.
Speaker 1: Everything was lasers, so they introduced a Punisher without guns.
Speaker 1: So he's always been a fascinating character to me because
Speaker 1: he's the epitome of it depends on the writer, and
Speaker 1: the character can be the thinnest character on the earth,
Speaker 1: or it can be John Burnhall. And what's really impressive
Speaker 1: is this generation only knows Punishers, this really well written
Speaker 1: character because people discovered him like you, whereas he's a
Speaker 1: garbage character about half of his run, like he's a
Speaker 1: very poorly written like gun toting. Yeah, there's a reason
Speaker 1: that symbol represents a lot of parts of the country
Speaker 1: we don't need to represent. So it's a really interesting
Speaker 1: character because he can be as nuanced as John Burnhall,
Speaker 1: but he can also be a guy who shoots big
Speaker 1: and flexies. He was a product of that and like
Speaker 1: nineties Marvel, you know where where it's or not even
Speaker 1: nineties popular nineties comic book in general, when it's like,
Speaker 1: let's go crazy and just like that's the Punisher, everyone
Speaker 1: outside of the Netflix era is aware of where it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm the guy who's gonna shoot him up, and it's
Speaker 1: in big guns and leather and straps and all the
Speaker 1: belts and all the pockets on the belts and no hands,
Speaker 1: ankle gun, ankle knife, ankle pouch. What's in there? More
Speaker 1: guns and then they were. But that's a fun thing,
Speaker 1: and it's something I want to kind of even kind
Speaker 1: of park on for a hot second, just in comics
Speaker 1: where it's funny how it really is the writer. A
Speaker 1: writer can really take a comic book or franchise you
Speaker 1: really don't care about and really make you super interested,
Speaker 1: Like I think Jeff Lobes Red Hulk run is. You know,
Speaker 1: I could not have cared about Red Hulk until Jeff
Speaker 1: Lobes started writing for it, or you know, or anything.
Speaker 1: Bendes has his finger everything. Ben Sachs, I'm like, I'll
Speaker 1: at least try it. Yeah, brew baker Is brings things
Speaker 1: a flavor to things that it's just always so fun
Speaker 1: to check out. So if you read a comic and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, I do not like this character, but
Speaker 1: there's a writer who maybe wrote a comic that you
Speaker 1: do like, definitely check out that character written by that
Speaker 1: comic if that is available, because that might change your opinion.
Speaker 1: Like Jerry Dugan, Brian Possana on Deadpool is what I
Speaker 1: send everyone too, because Deadpool is often written poorly as well,
Speaker 1: and if you can find the right like they're both comedians,
Speaker 1: Brian past is literally a stand up, so turning people
Speaker 1: onto that voice. Then sometimes you learn to like characters
Speaker 1: enough you can forgive other things, and I think Punisher
Speaker 1: is a great example of that. The Netflix show is
Speaker 1: so good you can forgive other things. Yeah, sure, like
Speaker 1: War Journal, but when you've watched it, after watching Punish,
Speaker 1: you're like John Burnthal, this comic is awesome. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: let's get into who the Punisher is. Francis Oh, I
Speaker 1: love that. That's his real name. Francis Frank guess so
Speaker 1: Um is a fictional character appearing in American comic books
Speaker 1: published by Marvel So. The character was created by Gary
Speaker 1: Conway and artist John Room made a senior and Ross Andrew,
Speaker 1: with publisher Stan Lee green lighting the name. The Punisher
Speaker 1: made his first appearance in The Amazing Spider Man number
Speaker 1: one nine cover dated February nineteen seventy four. So that
Speaker 1: issue is the iconic cover and it's so expensive. It's
Speaker 1: one of the I have fifty nine Spider Man's left,
Speaker 1: and I have every run of every title in history,
Speaker 1: and this is one of the fifty. Need because I
Speaker 1: wanted a good condition. Somebody send it to But it's
Speaker 1: it's amazing how this has stood the test of time
Speaker 1: because it's one of the most recent issues. I need,
Speaker 1: I need, like number one and stuff. But then one
Speaker 1: twenty nine is this coveted issue because it's a beautiful
Speaker 1: yellow cover. It's him with the crosshairs on Spider Man,
Speaker 1: and he was meant to be a one off villain.
Speaker 1: He didn't show up again UNTILSS You Won thirty five.
Speaker 1: The Punisher's second appearance is one thirty five, which means
Speaker 1: that's six months later because back then you'd have to
Speaker 1: wait to get the letters back from the fans and
Speaker 1: then decided to use the character. Yeah, he was supposed
Speaker 1: to be just the flash in the pan. This is
Speaker 1: the one note villain, and then the fans loved him.
Speaker 1: One thirty five came back and it was then like
Speaker 1: two or three years he had his own little mini
Speaker 1: So he's been beloved from the beginning because he's so
Speaker 1: different from Marvel usually puts out. There's not a lot
Speaker 1: of gun toting vigilante anti heroes there are now, but
Speaker 1: this was a new thing. But this was also the
Speaker 1: time of the mob like coming up, you know, and
Speaker 1: he is an Italian American vigilanti. Yeah, so it is
Speaker 1: um interesting. I feel like that that like the same
Speaker 1: thing that you guys were talking about with the nineties,
Speaker 1: because the eighties nineties we had like because he's also
Speaker 1: a war veteran, so we had like g I. Joe
Speaker 1: was really big back then those toys. And also he
Speaker 1: was just kind of starkly different. You know, you had
Speaker 1: all these heroes who were like super do get dogs,
Speaker 1: and this is a guy who like doesn't mind murdering, kidnapping,
Speaker 1: using extortion, coercion, threats of violence, and torture to basically
Speaker 1: fight crime. So there's something a whole new flavor. It
Speaker 1: was like, oh yeah, that's a cool way to fight crime.
Speaker 1: And from a visual standpoint, you throw him again Spider Man,
Speaker 1: a red and blue spanbex clad heroes like the most
Speaker 1: and then you've got this guy in black and white
Speaker 1: with a pseudo mullet and a broken nose, Like he
Speaker 1: looks like the opposite of Spiderman every way. And I
Speaker 1: think that was a lot of his appeal was this
Speaker 1: was an age of leaving the Silver Age going into
Speaker 1: Golden Age. I think the Silver Age had just ended
Speaker 1: up like Issue two when Gwen Stacy died, that effectively
Speaker 1: into the Silver Age of comics. To the point that
Speaker 1: comics change size, which is fascinating, Like it was less
Speaker 1: than a year earlier that comics had physically changed how
Speaker 1: they were made. And so he's coming up into the
Speaker 1: Golden age of comics, post silver Age, and it is
Speaker 1: the crime era of comic books. You've got like the
Speaker 1: gangster books you've got you know, hammer Head was really
Speaker 1: important and big. Then you've got the Tombstone. You've got
Speaker 1: all these mafia so characters, and then you've got a
Speaker 1: guy that takes them out the same way they dish
Speaker 1: it out, and that's fascinating for comic books. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: I was gonna say is when he said he has
Speaker 1: a broken nose, that it's funny they picked John Burnhall
Speaker 1: because John Burnhall has said that he's broken his nose
Speaker 1: fourteen times. I remember once I was listening to A
Speaker 1: used to get in a lot of fights, which was
Speaker 1: funny because I watched him. He is an amazing actor.
Speaker 1: He actually went to acting school in Russia. He got
Speaker 1: accepted and went over there and said it really changed
Speaker 1: his life. And it's so fascinating listening to him because
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I would never date you because
Speaker 1: when I see him, know when I see him as
Speaker 1: an actor, I'm like, oh my gosh, Like I'm in
Speaker 1: love with him. Granted he's married and has three kids,
Speaker 1: but like, and then when I hear him listening. When
Speaker 1: I listened to him and he talked about how many
Speaker 1: fights he would get in, how alpha he was like
Speaker 1: you know all of that, I'm like, oh, yeah, we
Speaker 1: never would have made it. That is not my type.
Speaker 1: Just like punch and getting fights all the time over there,
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna show him what's you're staring at your
Speaker 1: but well, he's gonna be steering him a fist. But
Speaker 1: what I find fascinating John Burnthal in particular is he
Speaker 1: looks more like Punisher than anyone should. Like his nose
Speaker 1: is broken in the same spots, his forehead is the
Speaker 1: same ratio, Like he actually looks like John im to
Speaker 1: Senor was like, one day, well you know this boy.
Speaker 1: You know what's so funny is that he was killed
Speaker 1: off on The Walking Dead, which this isn't a spoiler.
Speaker 1: This has been out for like what seven years or something,
Speaker 1: and he's set and that was kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: that was that was a huge show for him. He
Speaker 1: was in it for two seasons and and but then
Speaker 1: he later said if he hadn't been killed off, he
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been the Punisher, Like he wouldn't have gotten that.
Speaker 1: So that is so cool to think of it that
Speaker 1: way when sometimes you think like this is oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I just lost my job, you know, on the biggest
Speaker 1: show ever, and then it's like, oh no, now you
Speaker 1: have your own series and it's one of the biggest
Speaker 1: shows ever. So that's really cool. And he wasn't on
Speaker 1: my radar. Sorry, he wasn't on my radar for Punisher.
Speaker 1: He wasn't like in my fan cast. He wasn't someone
Speaker 1: I was like he could play. And then once they
Speaker 1: cast and I was like, wait, how did I not
Speaker 1: see the guy that looks just like Punisher? And that's
Speaker 1: what I was gonna say is he was one of
Speaker 1: the very few people that when they cast, everyone was
Speaker 1: like yeah. Like usually when someone's cast is like what no,
Speaker 1: and it's like you have to get used to it,
Speaker 1: and there's like debates and some people like it, some
Speaker 1: people don't. But this was the one casting where people
Speaker 1: were like, yep, I would say the same for because
Speaker 1: we were talking earlier before we started recording about hell
Speaker 1: Boy when David Harbor was announced as hell Boy, I
Speaker 1: was like, yep, yep, I see that. And both of
Speaker 1: those are tall orders because their legacy characters. Ron Hellman
Speaker 1: just was the Hellboy three just now didn't exist like
Speaker 1: it was due to shoot and be a movie. So
Speaker 1: it's not like Ron Perlman had a retirement the end
Speaker 1: of hell Boy Too spoiler alert from eight years ago.
Speaker 1: She's pregnant. So Ron Perlman was supposed to be Hellboy again.
Speaker 1: So for us to accept David Harbor so quickly, and
Speaker 1: then with John Bernthal to go from you know your
Speaker 1: Dolph Lounger and uh to Ray Wins don't no note
Speaker 1: Ray the War like the Alexander did oh yes, um,
Speaker 1: and then Tom Jane. We've had so many different Punishers,
Speaker 1: so it's really hard for an actor that is, you know,
Speaker 1: Walking Dead TV actor to suddenly be accepted so quickly.
Speaker 1: But he really was. I totally agree. Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: so good. Yeah. The backstory of Punisher is you know,
Speaker 1: another one of those uh good old classic uh you
Speaker 1: know body someone's whole family tree type things. So you
Speaker 1: basically his wife and two kids were killed by the
Speaker 1: mob for witnessing a murder in New York City Central
Speaker 1: Park and then The Punisher waged though one man war
Speaker 1: on the mob and all violent criminals in general because
Speaker 1: of this, and he's like, the people who are bad
Speaker 1: have to pay. And his family's killers were obviously the
Speaker 1: first to be murked by the Punisher, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: he definitely had that Liam Neeson skill set where he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, I went to war, so I have a
Speaker 1: specific set of skills. You know, he was a he
Speaker 1: was a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. He
Speaker 1: was a scout sniper, and he you know, he was
Speaker 1: skilled in hand to hand combat, guerrilla warfare and marksmanship.
Speaker 1: You know, I wanted to say whenever I get asked
Speaker 1: on the DC side what I was on a panel,
Speaker 1: and they'll ask me who my favorite DC villain is,
Speaker 1: and I always say Batman because he is a villain,
Speaker 1: because he's a vigilante. And no one ever likes that answer,
Speaker 1: but it's true. And um, the Punisher, it's really interesting
Speaker 1: because he is also a vigilan. He that's trying to
Speaker 1: avenge his family's death. They're not as different as people think. Granted,
Speaker 1: the Punisher's run in this comic book series is much
Speaker 1: more violent, I would say, than Batman, but they both
Speaker 1: have killed in comics, so a hero doesn't look up
Speaker 1: the weaknesses of his teammates. Yeah, Batman always is ready
Speaker 1: to take out the entire justice. That's not a heroic
Speaker 1: smart but it's not heroic. But I'm you're taking the
Speaker 1: law into your own hands. That is technically a criminal,
Speaker 1: and that is technically a villain, depending on whose viewpoint
Speaker 1: you're looking at. So anyways, that's just my point. If
Speaker 1: anyone ever asked who your favorite your favorite villain DC
Speaker 1: villain is, you can tell them Batman and I agree
Speaker 1: with Punsure being a parallel because oftentimes Cap and Punish
Speaker 1: her butt heads directly because Cap represents ultimate good and
Speaker 1: Punisher represents not ultimately bad, but bad that has a wiggle.
Speaker 1: There's a gray area of that that Cap hates because
Speaker 1: I think Cap sees himself and Punisher a lot and
Speaker 1: like it's what he wants to do, yes, yeah, that
Speaker 1: he can't he can not do. Yeah yeah. And then
Speaker 1: of course Punish respects Cap because Cap is the ultimate
Speaker 1: soldier and he's trying to be a soldier, except he
Speaker 1: kills people. So it's a really cool parallel. I really
Speaker 1: love the interactions between Punisher and Cap and it's really interesting.
Speaker 1: I will probably get into this little later on. But
Speaker 1: in Ultimate Comics, which is the basis of the movies
Speaker 1: you love, the Ultimate Comics is the blueprint for the
Speaker 1: m c U. If you read anything, start with Ultimate Spiderman.
Speaker 1: It will change your life, and then ten years later
Speaker 1: you'll meet Miles Morales in your life will change again.
Speaker 1: You're welcome. But Ultimate Punisher kills Spider Man. Ultimate Punisher
Speaker 1: shoots at Cap, Spider Man gets in the way, and
Speaker 1: then Spiderman's just fought the Green Goblin. The death of
Speaker 1: Peter Parker and the comics is insane. But if you
Speaker 1: look at it, the killing blow is Punisher. He's a
Speaker 1: bad guy, and people don't talk about that when we're
Speaker 1: talk about the Punishy. He killed Spider Man. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: you know as much as you're saying that, the police
Speaker 1: try to kill Spider Man. So in the police I
Speaker 1: don't think would be seen. I mean, we would see
Speaker 1: it as audiences if we watched the police officer kill
Speaker 1: Spider Man. But like the police don't see they see
Speaker 1: another vigilante who is essentially breaking the law. So I
Speaker 1: just that's what I find really fascinating about all of
Speaker 1: this is that it's told the Punisher to Spider Man
Speaker 1: is a villain, but when we see him in his
Speaker 1: own comic, and we see him now in the Netflix series,
Speaker 1: we're rooting for him to survive. So, like we started
Speaker 1: with it, it depends on who's writing it whether or
Speaker 1: not they play that nuance well. So, um, Gary Conway
Speaker 1: was inspired by The Executioner, which is a popular book
Speaker 1: series created by author Don Pendleton, in which a Vietnam
Speaker 1: veteran Mack Boland becomes a serial killer of criminals after
Speaker 1: the mafia related death of death of his family. So
Speaker 1: that is essentially the Punisher's origin story. Uh. Conway described
Speaker 1: the inspiration in an interview from nineteen seven, quote, I
Speaker 1: was fascinated by the Don Pendleton Executioner character, which was
Speaker 1: fairly popular at the time, and I wanted to do
Speaker 1: something that was inspired by that, although not to my
Speaker 1: mind a copy of it. And while I was doing
Speaker 1: the Jackal storyline, the opportunity came for a character who
Speaker 1: would be used by the Jackal to make Spider Man's
Speaker 1: life miserable, and the Punisher seemed to fit. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: and then Conway. He also helped design the character's distinctive costume. UH.
Speaker 1: In two thousand two, he said, in the seventies, when
Speaker 1: I was writing comics at d C and Marvel, I
Speaker 1: made a practice to sketch my own ideas for the
Speaker 1: costumes of new characters, heroes and villains, which I offered
Speaker 1: to the artists as crude suggestions for representing the image
Speaker 1: I had in mine. I had done it that would
Speaker 1: punish her at Marvel, And it's it's interesting to hear
Speaker 1: that because I imagine if I because you know, um,
Speaker 1: there's there there seemed to be making a lot of
Speaker 1: room for comics to write UH comics, and I've already
Speaker 1: spoken to a few people to try and get in
Speaker 1: that lane, and I imagine that that's how I would
Speaker 1: kind of do for certain things that I'm like, I
Speaker 1: want this to look. So it's cool to see that,
Speaker 1: like someone's been doing that, and I imagine that you know,
Speaker 1: that would have happened, but it's cool to see like
Speaker 1: that it is not that frowned upon. Hopefully you know,
Speaker 1: who knows what's happening now. Yeah, So then that ran
Speaker 1: through the seventies and eighties, and then in nineteen nine five,
Speaker 1: Marvel canceled all three ongoing Punisher series due to poor sales.
Speaker 1: That was was that that was also just a hard
Speaker 1: time in comics, in general comics, So in nineteen nine
Speaker 1: five Marvel had to sell their characters. So the reason
Speaker 1: that X Men is owned by Fox, the reason we
Speaker 1: can't get Silver Surfer, Fantastic four, the reason we don't
Speaker 1: know who owns nay More half the time is back
Speaker 1: then they were trying to keep their lights on and
Speaker 1: no one wanted to buy Iron Man because he was
Speaker 1: a C list character at the time. No one wanted
Speaker 1: Thor because he was in his wrestling phase. No one
Speaker 1: wanted these characters. That's one He's there still Marvel at
Speaker 1: the time. So in nineteen there was seventeen variant covers
Speaker 1: of per issue. There was Foliage foil covers, there was
Speaker 1: all the issues that we've learned our mistakes from. But
Speaker 1: ninety five was peak excess. So all the characters were excessive,
Speaker 1: all of the runs were excessive. We just lived through
Speaker 1: this amazing age of comics where they were selling and
Speaker 1: now we thought that if we bought you know, the
Speaker 1: death of Superman, who would put our kids through college
Speaker 1: and it didn't work out. So I think Punisher was
Speaker 1: definitely a loss of the time as well as a
Speaker 1: character that was better suited for a different time period.
Speaker 1: There's a reason his imagery, like you were talking about,
Speaker 1: has lived on. There's a reason that soldiers respect him
Speaker 1: and have that on their trucks. There's a reason that
Speaker 1: the skull is so iconic to the Punisher. And what's
Speaker 1: funny is I think it's actually gone beyond the Punisher,
Speaker 1: wh people don't even necessarily identify with it. Like I
Speaker 1: see marines with the Punisher iconography, and I don't see
Speaker 1: them as comic fans. There's just this this universal appeal
Speaker 1: to that skull, and I find that fascinating because it
Speaker 1: was a comic book iconography that was changed by a
Speaker 1: series of artists that turned into what the Punisher is.
Speaker 1: And I think that it would be really interesting to
Speaker 1: talk to the people that love the Punisher about his nuance,
Speaker 1: whether or not they see them as a gun toting
Speaker 1: hero or a villain or a guy that does anything
Speaker 1: that to to get what he wants. And it's such
Speaker 1: a tricky character that when putting wrong, it's like a gun.
Speaker 1: When putting the wrong hands. It can go well or poorly,
Speaker 1: and I think he represents a lot more of what
Speaker 1: can be than people give him credit for. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's that's what's so interesting that you mentioned that of
Speaker 1: how like soldiers and cops have been doing it, because
Speaker 1: that's how they've got burned by because as not knowing
Speaker 1: what it is. Because if you see a cop walking
Speaker 1: around with a punisher on their car, you're like, no,
Speaker 1: please don't. Yeah, and they've they've gotten burned. They I
Speaker 1: forgot which I'll look it up real quick, but the
Speaker 1: whole police department they had them on. We're going to
Speaker 1: get into the bottom, but they had to remove it
Speaker 1: from their cards, and it's like, yeah, you should probably
Speaker 1: know the whole thing behind it before you start slapping
Speaker 1: it on police car. And that's a good argument for
Speaker 1: him being a great character, because nuance, I think, is
Speaker 1: the most important thing in comic books. That's why Daredevil
Speaker 1: is one of the best shows about comic books. It's
Speaker 1: because you're rooting for the Kingpen half as much as
Speaker 1: rooting for Daredevil. Like when Matt Murdoch has a face
Speaker 1: off with Wilson Fisk, you're seeing two men that are
Speaker 1: trying to do what they see is right full stop.
Speaker 1: Punisher is then introduced in season two, and he's just
Speaker 1: trying to do what is right full stop, except he's
Speaker 1: got a gun. So when you see these people with
Speaker 1: the Punisher emblems on their guns or their trucks or
Speaker 1: there Whatever's it's really interesting is is it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: say what kind of personally are. It just says they
Speaker 1: believe strongly in what they believe in. And I think
Speaker 1: that's a great conversation to have with people in the military,
Speaker 1: and and you know, the people that do who love
Speaker 1: the character is why they do. Yeah, I was gonna say, um,
Speaker 1: we're going to get into his revival and coming back
Speaker 1: in as well as the fan films, the big films
Speaker 1: and his Netflix series right after these messages and welcome back,
Speaker 1: it's me and it's me Frank Gas. You see, I
Speaker 1: was trying that that sounded I was that wasn't Italian.
Speaker 1: That was like and I too. Maybe we were talking
Speaker 1: about how um Dolph longer played him. Well, yo, you
Speaker 1: know he on the side of the Bronx, he was
Speaker 1: just an aquaman, right, I think that's yeah, he's just
Speaker 1: all I mean, no, but I think it's funny that
Speaker 1: he's still in the comic book movies, like decades later,
Speaker 1: he's still such a beast, like his face and body
Speaker 1: is made for comics. If he dies, he dies, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, frink. And if he dies, he can't be revived.
Speaker 1: But we're talking about the revival. Nobody likes my accents ever,
Speaker 1: My my, My old Lady one that I did and
Speaker 1: then my, um, what was it Jimmy Stewart, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you like sent a second draft of that to me
Speaker 1: and I was like, yes, oh, yes it was. It
Speaker 1: was during Christmas, during Christmas. I can't even remember the
Speaker 1: name of the movie. Now, what is it? A Wonderful Life.
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful life was on and I filmed it,
Speaker 1: and I filmed me doing an impression of so proud
Speaker 1: of it. You were so proud, Clarence, Clarence, I want
Speaker 1: to live? Okay? Oh man? That was that real good
Speaker 1: tweet where it's like, imagine a ghost and a more
Speaker 1: successful you walk into a room and go, this is
Speaker 1: what you would look like if you didn't live, And
Speaker 1: he was like, oh no, take me back, and you're like,
Speaker 1: what the cancer? He almost got me? See, I am
Speaker 1: the one who curses the least. Ever, I never have
Speaker 1: to be bleeped and I almost broke it at Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't curse as much as I used to. I
Speaker 1: look back at tweets that I did last year and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, I was before I was
Speaker 1: a Disney Darling. Disney changes you. Oh man. So here's
Speaker 1: the revival of Punisher. Basically, there was a twelve issue
Speaker 1: mini series by Garth Innis, who he's good. He's like
Speaker 1: hit or miss for me. I like Garth, but he
Speaker 1: definitely is and it's no no surprise he did Punisher
Speaker 1: because he's definitely an edge lord e writer. Like all
Speaker 1: his strong tastes, all his comics are like very edgy
Speaker 1: and like especially when you go into his like image stuff.
Speaker 1: Oh what was the one you might know this because
Speaker 1: you're a huge The one where the like all the
Speaker 1: heroes die in it and it's like about them and
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the Boys. I'm talking about the
Speaker 1: boys and more recent this is before the Boys. It
Speaker 1: was more silver ag right, like, yeah, it was that
Speaker 1: image I forget but uh he that's when I but
Speaker 1: I was into it at that was like, look, bloody,
Speaker 1: this you're perfect. Yeah, I know what you're talking about,
Speaker 1: and I was the perfect age to but yeah he
Speaker 1: uh him and Steve Dylan uh did the Punisher that
Speaker 1: dropped during April two thousand. In March two thousand, first
Speaker 1: under the Marvel Knights imprint, which was a very specific
Speaker 1: run of Marvel, so Marvel aside from there, you know,
Speaker 1: I know in the Miles episode we explained what six
Speaker 1: one six versus Ultimate was, I think mean Max, Uh right, no, no,
Speaker 1: this one is under the Marvel um But and then
Speaker 1: they did another one under Max. I think we lightly
Speaker 1: touched on Max before. But Mark of the Knights was
Speaker 1: all the street level heroes and by street level, and
Speaker 1: it's exactly what it sounds like, your Luke Cages, your
Speaker 1: Daredevil's And they had that Marvel Knights run and it
Speaker 1: was kind of away from the main cannon and they
Speaker 1: had their own special Marvel Knights cannon. It was really cool.
Speaker 1: And then you have your Max imprint, which is just
Speaker 1: your R rated comics, which the the Nick fal The
Speaker 1: Nick Fury Max run is so good because it's like
Speaker 1: a like sexy spy joint. Obviously Wolverine Max runs, even
Speaker 1: though some people are like, I didn't need that I
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, but yeah, So they had the Marvel
Speaker 1: Knights imprint and it revived the character's popularity. And then
Speaker 1: after that they had a regular ongoing series UH that
Speaker 1: were thirty seven issues from August two thousand and one
Speaker 1: to f Everywhary two thousand four, which was primarily by
Speaker 1: Innocent Dealing. Is it Enis or Inness? Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: I've been saying, um, but I'm bad with names. And
Speaker 1: then after that it was succeeded in two thousand four
Speaker 1: by an ongoing in a series under Marvel's Mature Readers
Speaker 1: imprint Max UH, which we just discussed, which the Max
Speaker 1: stuff is a good read. Some some is like gratuitous,
Speaker 1: but like with the right person, you can tell someone's like,
Speaker 1: I've been waiting around I wrote this, I be sitting
Speaker 1: out for thirty You could tell they're like, I've been
Speaker 1: waiting for this, and it'll just knock it out the park. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think Knights and Max are really good places for
Speaker 1: people that don't know comics to jump in because it's
Speaker 1: so strong. Whether you love it or hate it, it it
Speaker 1: definitely has a has a take. And I think that Knights,
Speaker 1: especially like Spider Man, Knights is written by Kevin Smith.
Speaker 1: And it's a really fun take because it's way edgier
Speaker 1: than Spider Man to being a regular run. And that
Speaker 1: is a good gateway. It's the gateway drug. It's the
Speaker 1: weed of comics to play. It's a good way for
Speaker 1: you to because they're shorter runs, they don't run as long.
Speaker 1: You don't have to read six hund issues. You can
Speaker 1: just read like thirty. So Punisher was a fun character
Speaker 1: because he had so many manyas he had so many
Speaker 1: different runs, you can kind of pick up wherever you
Speaker 1: want and it'll end soon enough. God, I was gonna say.
Speaker 1: During that time they changed his the look of the
Speaker 1: Punisher was modified, so they removed the white gloves and
Speaker 1: pairing his traditional skull imprinted shirt with combat trousers, black
Speaker 1: combat boots and a black trench coat. Um Castle has
Speaker 1: used this costume on occasion in the mid two thousand
Speaker 1: stories before the Punisher War Journal volume two. And we
Speaker 1: are moving on to films, we should briefly mention Steve
Speaker 1: Steve Dillon, who redefined his image, redefined the look, basically
Speaker 1: reshaped who Punisher is had passed away on the last
Speaker 1: five So Steve didlon the artist that we find who Punish. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's take a moment to appreciate Mr Steve Dillon. He
Speaker 1: actually was drawing a Punisher issue when he passed. So
Speaker 1: there's an issue that's half finished that is in print,
Speaker 1: like you can pick it up, and an artist that
Speaker 1: had a very similar style finished the runs there. I
Speaker 1: think it's issue like thirty seven of the of the
Speaker 1: second to most recent run. They just restarted Punisher in
Speaker 1: two thousand and eighteen. The one that ended in seventeen
Speaker 1: was the end of Steven Dillan when he's passed away.
Speaker 1: But if you're gonna pick up any comics, check out
Speaker 1: Steve Dillon's run that ended in twenties seventeen. But also
Speaker 1: the current run, which is the only issue six, is
Speaker 1: really good because it plays off of the John burnetal take.
Speaker 1: It's a lot more nuance. It looks like him. It
Speaker 1: definitely looks like So if you want to read Punisher,
Speaker 1: the current issue is issue six, you're only six six behinds.
Speaker 1: You're like eighteen dollars in which is which is handibal
Speaker 1: he yah um. Yeah, So we had the Punisher. That
Speaker 1: was the first time he was on the big screen
Speaker 1: starring Dolphin London as we said, he has killed a
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five criminals in the past five years.
Speaker 1: This is interesting. He's an ex police officer in this
Speaker 1: Um so, yeah, Castle's family was murdered in a mob hit,
Speaker 1: in which Castle was thought to also have perished. They
Speaker 1: still keep that storyline often of him. I think in
Speaker 1: this series. In the Netflix series, they thought he was dead. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he's living in this sewers and waging a one
Speaker 1: man war against organized crime. His only friend is an
Speaker 1: old alcoholic name Shake. I don't a way that reminds
Speaker 1: me of Master Shake from Aquitine Hunger Force, but I
Speaker 1: think they need to have that someone an adult Swim
Speaker 1: needs to have a regular punisher and then just have
Speaker 1: Master Shake with him. Um. I feel like that could
Speaker 1: be a series. I'll pitch it to somebody and then
Speaker 1: a former stay. Oh so Shake was a former stage
Speaker 1: actor who speaks in rhyme for reasons unexplained. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: the guys, did you enjoy this film? I did for
Speaker 1: what it was and was certainly a piece of the eighties.
Speaker 1: I my favorite non superhero franchisees Lethal Weapon. I watched
Speaker 1: Lethal Weapon every Christmas. The eighties were really important to me. So,
Speaker 1: Thomas Jane did a great job. But to me, Dolph
Speaker 1: Lunger and has a different It's not even the Punisher.
Speaker 1: It's like the eighties Punisher, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like there's a big old caveat. So when you watch it,
Speaker 1: you're not going like I'm gonna watch a Punisher movie.
Speaker 1: You're like, I'm gonna watch Dolf Lung Punisher. It's fun
Speaker 1: with a caveat. Yeah. Uh So, then after that we
Speaker 1: had the two thousand and four film The Punisher, starring
Speaker 1: Thomas Jane as Frank Castle and John Travolta as Howard Saint,
Speaker 1: who was a money launder who orders the death of
Speaker 1: Castle's entire family. It has a glowing on Rotten Tomatoes,
Speaker 1: but Roger Ebert he gave the film two stars, saying
Speaker 1: The Punisher is so grim and cheerless you wonder if
Speaker 1: it's uh, if it's hero gets any satisfaction from its accomplishments. Now,
Speaker 1: this movie is fantastic. I really people crap on this movie.
Speaker 1: I own it. I'm a big fan. I think Thomas
Speaker 1: Jane really figured out who the Punisher was. I like
Speaker 1: Tom Jane as an actor. Uh. It stars Rebecca Romaine
Speaker 1: as a supporting role who's great in this and people
Speaker 1: just think of his mystique. No, no, she's great and
Speaker 1: Punisher and Ben Foster was one of my favorite actors
Speaker 1: in the game. Ben Foster in the last ten years
Speaker 1: is getting all this critical appeal. But Ben Foster is
Speaker 1: in The Punisher and he plays this crazy like tatted
Speaker 1: and pierced meth head and he's like a pre Jesse Pinkman.
Speaker 1: It's fantastic, and it's a movie. He's got a great
Speaker 1: supporting cast. You identify with the supporting cast in a
Speaker 1: way that you don't expect because when you rewatch The Punisher,
Speaker 1: you need to have the humanity to make the character work.
Speaker 1: That's what Delfh Longheran didn't have because his humanity was
Speaker 1: that crazy, rhyming guy. Whereas you've got Rebecca Romaine, you've
Speaker 1: got Ben Foster. You believe in what he's fighting for,
Speaker 1: and that's what makes the character go from man to
Speaker 1: good is there has to be an eyeline, there has
Speaker 1: to be a perspective you can see. So I really
Speaker 1: like the Tom Jane one because it gave us that
Speaker 1: for the first time in my opinion, And then we
Speaker 1: had the two thousand eight, The Punisher war Zones everyone
Speaker 1: else pretty much says is the good one. Yeah, A
Speaker 1: lot of people love it, starring Ray Stevenson as a Punisher.
Speaker 1: It's directed by my friend Lexei Alexander, who is awesome
Speaker 1: and I feel like she uh, I don't know if
Speaker 1: she's a good follow on Twitter if we follow her.
Speaker 1: She she speaks up quite a bit and um really
Speaker 1: puts people in their place, and I think that she
Speaker 1: was the perfect person to do a Punisher film. Also,
Speaker 1: you know she's She's also directed a lot of other
Speaker 1: comic book TV shows, um, some of the ones that
Speaker 1: I think are in the CW so um. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: she also does hand to hand combat, which you can
Speaker 1: see her tweeting about constantly. She's amazing. Um. So this
Speaker 1: film is a reboot that follows the war Raged by
Speaker 1: Frank Castle and Crime Interruption again, particularly though with mob
Speaker 1: boss known as Jigsaw, who we're finally getting too in
Speaker 1: the series now. They touched on the Russian in the
Speaker 1: movie with Tom Jane that t thousand and four, and
Speaker 1: they kind of made him a Jigsaw asked character because
Speaker 1: they messed up his face. So they played with both
Speaker 1: Russian and Jigsaw, but in the comics, yeah, they kind
Speaker 1: of made him into one. And now what Lexi did
Speaker 1: was the Jigsaw was the villain and he looked awesome.
Speaker 1: I personally also love Lexi's film. I actually can't decide
Speaker 1: between the two because they're so different, Like Dolphs is
Speaker 1: different than Tom, Jane's a different than Rays. But Lexi's
Speaker 1: fighting style is fascinating because she fights in real life
Speaker 1: and her fight choreography reflects that. But then it's also
Speaker 1: with a shade of like the Punisher Max line where
Speaker 1: the violence is so over the top you're like, yes,
Speaker 1: like he punches through a head, like the like her
Speaker 1: movies insane and I really like it. And I think
Speaker 1: Lexi is the person that should be doing Lobo or
Speaker 1: would be doing like this next wave, Like, I think
Speaker 1: Lexi's an untapped resource for she's doing something for. I
Speaker 1: saw her tweet She's doing something for. She's doing one
Speaker 1: of those okay, one of the three that yeah somebody.
Speaker 1: I remember she was like, no one wanted this, and
Speaker 1: then they took it, and I think it's going to
Speaker 1: be like big yeah, Yeah, she is working on something
Speaker 1: where she was like now people are hitting me up
Speaker 1: and I just love her pettiness. She should. She's an
Speaker 1: extremely talented woman who can kick all of our asses collectively.
Speaker 1: I think she has been blacklisted at times for speaking
Speaker 1: up against abuse of people and um yeah, anyways, sorry,
Speaker 1: I didn't mean to distract. I agree with you. I
Speaker 1: like her work and I like her Punisher go LEXI yes. Um.
Speaker 1: So then we had a we had a very popular
Speaker 1: fan film, Dirty Laundry, which was a Punisher fan fan film.
Speaker 1: It was ten minutes long. It was starring Thomas Jane,
Speaker 1: so he was reprising his role. It came out in
Speaker 1: I remember it was produced by Audie Schenkore. Um. He's
Speaker 1: done a lot. I know, he's worked on Castlevania, him
Speaker 1: and I have worked on and he has a channel
Speaker 1: called Bootleg Universe. He makes a really cool fan stuff.
Speaker 1: He does a lot of fan films. He did the
Speaker 1: Power Rangers one right, yeah, yeah, the popular Power Rangers
Speaker 1: fan film. So. Um, this was called Dirty Laundry. It
Speaker 1: was Thomas Jane reprising his role uh from the film,
Speaker 1: as well as Ron Perlman hell Boy himself. Uh yeah.
Speaker 1: So it was ten minutes long. At first screened at
Speaker 1: San Diego Comic Con and Frank Castle sits out to
Speaker 1: do his laundry. You can go and catch it on YouTube.
Speaker 1: I like that money laundrying in the Thomas Jane puntersher
Speaker 1: turns into dirty laundry, and I always thought that tongue
Speaker 1: in cheek joke was brilliant. And I think the short
Speaker 1: is really really cool to see what a fan film
Speaker 1: can become with someone like Audie behind it, because the
Speaker 1: movies he makes are so fan base, they're really the
Speaker 1: thing we want to see. He did a movie this
Speaker 1: year that I love called Bodied, which is produced by
Speaker 1: eminem so Audie and and Marshall Mother's teamed up to
Speaker 1: do a battle hip hop movie that basically has the
Speaker 1: story structure of like a dance film that turns into
Speaker 1: a battle rap saga that lands with one of the
Speaker 1: most powerful lyrical displays I've ever seen on film, and
Speaker 1: it was done in the same way his fan films
Speaker 1: are that you know, he cares so much about each
Speaker 1: and every big nuance that the people that are watching
Speaker 1: it love the material. So if you mess up anything,
Speaker 1: we're the loudest people on the internet, are comic nerds,
Speaker 1: so do it right. And Dirty Laundry really plays to
Speaker 1: that so I like his everything he produces as a
Speaker 1: tone to it. Yeah, you know what, I just thought of,
Speaker 1: what if LEXI did Black Widow and actually made her
Speaker 1: like as hand to hand combatty and all the nuance
Speaker 1: that she could bring to it and actually bring in
Speaker 1: like the crazy Cold War intrigue of that, because she
Speaker 1: wouldn't she wouldn't cut corners. Her Twitter representation says the
Speaker 1: script she'd make. But if you imagine like an actual
Speaker 1: gritty Black Widow, like she's the max line and those things,
Speaker 1: that be incredible. So you know, we have a list
Speaker 1: of villains from the comics, But why go through a
Speaker 1: list when we have a walking encyclopedia with so many
Speaker 1: opinions on each villain? So uh so I'm gonna just
Speaker 1: go to the may and the myth, the legend coy
Speaker 1: who are I'd say, let's go down your top five.
Speaker 1: I know I'm putting you on the spot. Punish your
Speaker 1: villains and why, and they don't have to be in
Speaker 1: a specific order, Okay, extra pressure like like her more
Speaker 1: than here. Yeah, Monocchi comes to mine first. She was
Speaker 1: a Garthennis creation, if I remember correctly, And what I
Speaker 1: love about her is she leads a crime family, but
Speaker 1: she does it like an Italian mom in the North End,
Speaker 1: so she's never actually boots on the ground. She's orchestrating
Speaker 1: like an Italian mom, and she's like cooking like the
Speaker 1: whole time. You just have this malice and this fear
Speaker 1: of this character, and you don't know if there's blood
Speaker 1: in the spaghetti sauce, like there's there's always this uncomfortable
Speaker 1: like I don't know. Yeah, so she's great. Uh, And
Speaker 1: then to go the other side, Jigsaw. There's a reason
Speaker 1: jigsaws all these movies. There's a reason Jigsaw gets used
Speaker 1: over and over again. He's the opposite of Monocchi. The
Speaker 1: physicality of this character is fascinating because he's what Punisher
Speaker 1: is when unhinged. And I love the Iron Man Ironmonger thing.
Speaker 1: I love the parallel hero hero, the Spider Man, Venom.
Speaker 1: There's a reason we are fascinated with our other side.
Speaker 1: Jigsaw is his other side, and I really like when
Speaker 1: they play with those. I'm gonna say a a bold
Speaker 1: one here and cycle it back to Captain America. I
Speaker 1: think Captain America is one of the best Punisher villains
Speaker 1: because not only does he represent everything that castle wants
Speaker 1: to be, but he also shows in Times and Punisher
Speaker 1: comics that Captain America is fallible. There are decisions Cat
Speaker 1: makes that are for government, that are four right that
Speaker 1: don't end up being right. So when he has to
Speaker 1: apologize to Punisher, when he has to forgive Punisher, those
Speaker 1: things are really interesting to me, and those comics read, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you on that one, because that that was the
Speaker 1: first time you mentioned if this is all I thought about.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite interactions between them is during Civil
Speaker 1: War because there is a moment where they have to
Speaker 1: team up, and that my favorite thing about the moment
Speaker 1: is like everything you just said about them is encapsulated
Speaker 1: in that in that that issue is because you know,
Speaker 1: they have the moment where he's like, Frank, you were
Speaker 1: right and you should be on board, and in an
Speaker 1: instant they find out why they could never work together,
Speaker 1: and it's so good because it's such it's just so
Speaker 1: much of both those characters, and they've been side by
Speaker 1: side for issues. All of a sudden, it's like, this
Speaker 1: isn't working. What I was gonna say is it's capital
Speaker 1: like that whole story is so heartbreaking because that's what
Speaker 1: Frank Castle could be if his family hadn't been murdered.
Speaker 1: It's not like he wanted to become this person. He
Speaker 1: had his family taken from him in a way that
Speaker 1: he just he you know. I think they did a
Speaker 1: really good job of portraying it in the in the
Speaker 1: Netflix series of like it haunts him, like he just
Speaker 1: has repeated and it also our friend, uh Jason Edman,
Speaker 1: who was also a war vet UM has spoken up
Speaker 1: and said, like, this is one of the most honest
Speaker 1: portrayals of what it's like to go through PTSD, to
Speaker 1: be a veteran, you know, and like having these these
Speaker 1: flashbacks and like waking up in terror, and it's like
Speaker 1: it's um. Aside from all of that, he comes home
Speaker 1: after serving the country, comes home and then his family
Speaker 1: is murdered. It's so sad that like he was a hero,
Speaker 1: he was the country's hero. He was and then that
Speaker 1: was taken from him. It's such a it is so
Speaker 1: interesting to see that parallel of him and cat because
Speaker 1: that's who he should be. He is a he's a
Speaker 1: war hero, but now he's turned into this person that
Speaker 1: is perceived as a villain because all he wants to
Speaker 1: do is avenge his family. Yeah, that's what's so interesting
Speaker 1: about him too, is is just that part because and
Speaker 1: I think that's why Punisher has been able to work
Speaker 1: as as much as he does is because that is
Speaker 1: that defined his personal philosophy, the fact that he lost
Speaker 1: not only his wife but his kids. He's like, life
Speaker 1: isn't fair, so why played by the rules? Right? And
Speaker 1: that's and that's his whole character thesis. And when it's
Speaker 1: justified by what happened to him, it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: like why kill Monger was such a good because you're like,
Speaker 1: you understand where he's coming from exactly, You're just one
Speaker 1: about it the wrong way. And I think that's the
Speaker 1: same thing for Punisher, And Punisher has the extra wrench
Speaker 1: in it that he is fighting on our side. So
Speaker 1: as much as you want to be like you're going
Speaker 1: about it the wrong way, he's also taking care of
Speaker 1: the people we meet, taking care of his own community. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And what I like is that Captain America and Jigsaw
Speaker 1: couldn't be more different, but they're both villains of the Punisher,
Speaker 1: and I like that there's so much it's everyone against Frank.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, you love cap you
Speaker 1: love Spider, man, you don't love Jigsaw, but they're all
Speaker 1: against Frank. So it's this really interesting take on what
Speaker 1: morality even is. And we're giving some of the runs
Speaker 1: a lot more credit than they intended to have. But
Speaker 1: I'd also say I already did three of my final three,
Speaker 1: so I'm not leaving me out. You gotta mention bulls Eye,
Speaker 1: the blunt force of Punisher versus the very precision of
Speaker 1: Bull's Eye. I love the dichotomy of those two characters
Speaker 1: when they fight, because one is a blunt object, the
Speaker 1: other one is pure finesse. You see the bulls Eye
Speaker 1: and Daredevil a lot more, but the bulls Eye Punisher stuff.
Speaker 1: To me, it's a beautiful artistic representation of types of fighting.
Speaker 1: I would also say Kingpin because king In and some
Speaker 1: star lines has been responsible. Like you're saying money going
Speaker 1: to the top Punisher and Kingpin Kingpin might have been
Speaker 1: responsible for the death of his family, and they allude
Speaker 1: to that a lot, and that's a fascinating commentary. And
Speaker 1: even if the Kingpin would know that far down, if
Speaker 1: he was responsible, and would he care, So I think
Speaker 1: Kingpin's important. And then my last one would be the
Speaker 1: Russian because kg Beast in Batman is a great character
Speaker 1: because it's Batman fighting someone that is just like him.
Speaker 1: He's a dude and he's just not going to be
Speaker 1: taken down. To me, the Russian is that with the Punisher,
Speaker 1: he's kind of like Ivan Drago. He's kind of like
Speaker 1: Rocky versus Ivan Drago. He's the same guy in a
Speaker 1: different circumstance. He's from a different world and he's just
Speaker 1: fighting for his country what he thinks is right. So
Speaker 1: to me, the Russian is kind of the Punisher for
Speaker 1: Russia from the perspective of American eyes. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of good villains for for this character. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: is fascinating that Kingpin is both Spider Man's you know,
Speaker 1: villain and the Punisher so much. Yeah, and Daredevil all
Speaker 1: the street level New York guys so much incest to it.
Speaker 1: But Spider Man is now been leveled up. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: doesn't like anymore. He doesn't. But this man, I know.
Speaker 1: But we had him in into the Spider Verse and
Speaker 1: their game, Spiderman and the and the series. So Daredevil
Speaker 1: thought him, spider Man video Game thought him into the
Speaker 1: Spider Verse. Thought I'm Kingpin has gotten beaten up three times.
Speaker 1: You know what he deserves it. Yeah, ye, you've you've
Speaker 1: been due for I know who you know. I'm ready
Speaker 1: for Craven. This is a light side bar. I love
Speaker 1: to see how they do Craven. And that's all I
Speaker 1: can think about because Craven was such a cool one
Speaker 1: and then he had you know, so he was just
Speaker 1: I'd love to see his Craven Elba. Can you picture
Speaker 1: that lion mane over eat your seld shoulders. I just
Speaker 1: love that we both had black Craven in mind, the
Speaker 1: majesty of just. I want someone that's regal, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. I want someone that has a presence
Speaker 1: without the costumes. When he puts it on, you're like,
Speaker 1: oh that works because he wears a lions like that.
Speaker 1: We won't play if you don't have someone no, not
Speaker 1: not not with Yeah, Pascal, eat yourself with someone with
Speaker 1: that like reality. Yeah. Uh, we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: the Netflix series, but some of the controversies. Yeah, before
Speaker 1: we even get into them, I'm gonna have you listen
Speaker 1: and we're back and um coy, you were talking about
Speaker 1: how many people don't know how to write the Punisher.
Speaker 1: They just throw stuff at him. So punisher basically like
Speaker 1: when you run out of ideas because you're so ground level.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're like, we need to punisher back in the title,
Speaker 1: and then sometimes you get Frank and Castle. I love
Speaker 1: that it's literally a play on his name. Yeah, like,
Speaker 1: how amazing. So this guy's named Francis Castiglione and that
Speaker 1: turns into Frank Castle because he's a badass, and then
Speaker 1: that turns into Frank and Castle, which is the most amazing.
Speaker 1: It's it's the epitome of comics that wouldn't translate into
Speaker 1: any other medium. Sometimes comics have to be mix and
Speaker 1: I love that we have animated movies. I love that
Speaker 1: we have live action movies. I love that we have
Speaker 1: TV series. But Frank and Castle is why comics can
Speaker 1: never die, because it would not work in a single
Speaker 1: other medium. But we were just talking like if he
Speaker 1: loved the run, it's so much fun and it's so weird.
Speaker 1: How can that exist and be good? It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: It just yeah, And it was one of those things
Speaker 1: where you know, like we were saying during the break,
Speaker 1: it was supposed to be like this, Like I think
Speaker 1: Halloween was when they had like all these like it
Speaker 1: was Halloween versions of characters, but people liked Frank and
Speaker 1: Castle so much they just kept it running. It was
Speaker 1: it was wild, and I was surprised every time I
Speaker 1: saw it on the shelves, like this is still going okay.
Speaker 1: He's also been war Machine worth noting he's had the
Speaker 1: war Machine armor, so he's taken over the Don Cheetle
Speaker 1: character in the movies and currently Frank Castle. And this
Speaker 1: is the weirdest one of ball is the spirit of
Speaker 1: Vengeance with cosmic powers. So Frank Castle plus Silver Surfer
Speaker 1: plus ghost Rider, I give you Cosmic ghost Rider. He
Speaker 1: lives until the end of time. He's the last guy
Speaker 1: with Thanos in the year whatever thousand, well past the
Speaker 1: earth exploding. Frank Castle has the power cosmic and his ghostwriter.
Speaker 1: Because comics and drugs have a lot more in common
Speaker 1: than this. Poor man probably just wants to hang out
Speaker 1: with his family in heaven. Like I'm not even kidding.
Speaker 1: That's what all of his dreams are about, just like
Speaker 1: banging his wife and the Netflix series. Every time he dreams,
Speaker 1: it's just like and I don't blame the dude, but
Speaker 1: I also know because his family, at least in the series.
Speaker 1: In the Netflix series, they were murdered at a carousel,
Speaker 1: and they keep showing that carousel even in other I
Speaker 1: think they showed it. Was it in Luke It was
Speaker 1: like in another series too. Maybe it was also in
Speaker 1: Daredevil like this poor man. Also, I wanted to say,
Speaker 1: because um, there was a scene I think it was
Speaker 1: in Daredevil. Maybe it was. Yeah, it was in Daredevil
Speaker 1: where Frank is looking at a Um, this is Daredevil
Speaker 1: Netflix series where Frank is looking at a picture of
Speaker 1: his family and it's a different family. Do you remember
Speaker 1: that it's a different family because they hadn't cast the
Speaker 1: family because they probably didn't quite Oh, they were going
Speaker 1: to make him have his own entire series. This is
Speaker 1: the John birnth All run. And so he's looking at
Speaker 1: a different family And I tweeted him like, how many
Speaker 1: families has this man lost? No wonder he's so traumatized
Speaker 1: families That was before they cast his current family that
Speaker 1: shows up in flashbacks on The Punisher. Anyways, John Burnthall
Speaker 1: plays The Punisher on Marvel's Netflix series. Also, we have
Speaker 1: Ben Barnes playing Billy Russo a k a. Jigsaw who
Speaker 1: are going to get in this upcoming series. Um Amber
Speaker 1: Rose Reva who is amazing. I believe she plays a
Speaker 1: CIA agent. I think she's with the CIA, yeah, or whatever.
Speaker 1: Her division of the government would be UM. And so
Speaker 1: this is just a little bit of a backstory. So
Speaker 1: The Punisher was actually supposed to get a pilot at
Speaker 1: Fox in eleven, but that project fell through. He appeared
Speaker 1: in June of twenty fifteen in the second series the
Speaker 1: second season of Daredevil, and then by January they had
Speaker 1: developed the Punisher series to have his own spin off.
Speaker 1: What I love about the Punisher series is it reflects
Speaker 1: the comics. Accidentally and Spider Man, you accidentally backdoor pilot
Speaker 1: a character you didn't think to take off. Daredevil accidentally
Speaker 1: backdoor piloted a character into a show you didn't think.
Speaker 1: C W does that all the time. But the fact
Speaker 1: that it was his origin was that from the comics
Speaker 1: turned into a TV show, two separate medium. We have
Speaker 1: Punisher being like, I'm too cool, I'm gonna get my
Speaker 1: own thing. Both Red Guys and Tights caused a Punisher
Speaker 1: show to develop, and it's great. The CW does do that,
Speaker 1: and they test out audiences really well, and it's really
Speaker 1: intriguing when it works. And The Punisher like you said,
Speaker 1: the Different Family. We didn't know how much we'd love
Speaker 1: John Burnhal. We knew, like when you got cash, like,
Speaker 1: that's great. And as soon as he was up on
Speaker 1: that roof in Chaine's tied to that chimney, like, I
Speaker 1: knew this was a character I wanted to see more of.
Speaker 1: As soon as that Daredevil scene happened, I was straight
Speaker 1: from the comics. The dialogue felt greedy, from the comics.
Speaker 1: All of that, I knew we needed a whole show,
Speaker 1: and I think that Netflix did as well. That's why
Speaker 1: he picked it. He's or you know, one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why he said yes. He said that long monologue
Speaker 1: that you don't actually get to do a lot of
Speaker 1: in television. When he read that monologue that, uh, but
Speaker 1: that moment between Frank Castle and Daredevil that is up
Speaker 1: on that roof, he was like, I want to do this.
Speaker 1: They're allowing us to breathe like, they're allowing them to
Speaker 1: have longer moments um like real raw moments. And that
Speaker 1: was one of the reasons why he, as an actor,
Speaker 1: wanted to play him. I totally see that, and you
Speaker 1: can see how much Burnthal loves Punisher. I mean, he
Speaker 1: puts his teeth into everything he works on. But he said,
Speaker 1: like he kind of was reclusive and he was filming
Speaker 1: he had to go, you know, kind of shake the
Speaker 1: character after the first season wrapped. I think it's really
Speaker 1: interesting that John Burnthal what he's turned into, because if
Speaker 1: you look at any Taylor Sheridan movie, he like pops
Speaker 1: up in all these great roles. He's in Cicario, he's
Speaker 1: in you know, wind River, and he's always this force
Speaker 1: of nature in these small roles. So I love that
Speaker 1: Punisher gives us thirteen hours and he's still a force
Speaker 1: of nature the same thing, or he plays this tough
Speaker 1: guy like really quickly and then the rest of it.
Speaker 1: In the rest of it, Jimi Fox replaces him as
Speaker 1: pretty much the same character. Do you watch a baby
Speaker 1: Driver with like different glasses on? And I re watched it.
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, the differences Jimmy Fox and John
Speaker 1: berthell are very small. Yeah, like ten minutes and that's it.
Speaker 1: That's so funny. You know, like we talked about, you know,
Speaker 1: good things getting into the wrong hands of course, you know,
Speaker 1: the Punishers skull Icon became a huge hit with the
Speaker 1: Blue Lives Matter movement with many companies produced decals, stickers,
Speaker 1: and T shirts featuring the Punisher emblem colored with a
Speaker 1: thin blue line a top of American flag, and in
Speaker 1: two thousand and seventeen, the Cattlesburg Police Department, with the
Speaker 1: one we were talking about earlier in Kentucky, basically got
Speaker 1: the backlash for installing those large decals with the Punisher
Speaker 1: skull and Blue Lives Matters on the hood of police
Speaker 1: cars because you know, well, uh, I don't have to
Speaker 1: spell it out for you. Uh and uh, you know
Speaker 1: they removed it in response to public pressure. But uh,
Speaker 1: but they said citizens and police interpreted its meaning differently.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you could have interpreted, especially coupled
Speaker 1: with Blue Lives Matter, because I mean, you know, look,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get all the way into it, but
Speaker 1: Blue Lives Matter is basically a movement of let us
Speaker 1: do what we have to do to do what we
Speaker 1: want what makes us feel safe, and Punisher is a
Speaker 1: character who does just that. And it turns out the
Speaker 1: same way with both the instances. Uh for a little
Speaker 1: bit of dark history. But they said it didn't cross
Speaker 1: their mind. I mean, either way, even if you had
Speaker 1: nothing to uh like, even if there was no punisher
Speaker 1: attached to it. I don't want cops walking around with
Speaker 1: skulls on their cars or anything like punisher attached or nothing,
Speaker 1: even if it's just not be your goal is to
Speaker 1: have dead people. Your goal should be for the person
Speaker 1: to be a lot like the verbage. And it's called
Speaker 1: the punisher, implying the move is to punish, not to
Speaker 1: protect and serve. And then the archaetography of death versus protecting.
Speaker 1: It's like, you can't have to protect and serve and
Speaker 1: to punish on the same car. Those are two cars. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: to protect your have schools. And it's funny because half
Speaker 1: the police cars in this country, maybe it's not half,
Speaker 1: don't quote me. Many police cars in this country have
Speaker 1: to protect and serving quotes, so it's always like to
Speaker 1: protect and serve. And I was like, bro, you know
Speaker 1: that quotes stand for on the internet, but the punisher
Speaker 1: is not in quotes, so it's like maybe there's a there.
Speaker 1: I don't see I do. I mean, I feel like
Speaker 1: comic book characters are though for people that have served,
Speaker 1: like there are very important to them. I know, like
Speaker 1: when my one of my friends from high school um
Speaker 1: was in Iraq, I would send him comic books, you know.
Speaker 1: And Jason Edman again, our our friend who is a veteran,
Speaker 1: has a whole comic book drive for veterans. So I
Speaker 1: understand to some extent um, I think, like what you
Speaker 1: guys are saying in a public manner, having the punisher
Speaker 1: is probably not the right person. I have seen the
Speaker 1: police officers that have like Superman, I feel like that's perfect,
Speaker 1: that least out of the one of the most. Even yeah,
Speaker 1: I've seen Captain America. I mean, but to play America
Speaker 1: makes sense because it's America. Like, yeah, I could see that.
Speaker 1: But I love that the military has a character they
Speaker 1: identify with and I and I don't want my earlier
Speaker 1: quote to be misrepresented. I love that the military having
Speaker 1: a character that they feel they have a representation with
Speaker 1: is important that they feel they can read a comic
Speaker 1: and never released. I can't imagine what the military goes through.
Speaker 1: I've never I've never served, so I can't imagine how
Speaker 1: great it is to be like, Okay, I just did
Speaker 1: a tour. I have no way to cope. This character
Speaker 1: has been through what I've been through. Let me like
Speaker 1: put my nose in a comic and go like and
Speaker 1: then have that solution. So I really think it's important
Speaker 1: that we do have representation for the military, and I
Speaker 1: do think it's important that they have a character that
Speaker 1: they can throw a flag up and that we as
Speaker 1: non military can go yeah and they can go yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's a universality that that to me is so key.
Speaker 1: It's just like a gun. Guns need to be in
Speaker 1: the right hand ends, and I think that the iconography
Speaker 1: needs to be in the right hands. Yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 1: yeah and then uh, what was that? Um uh? Well,
Speaker 1: so the Punisher, like you guys said, representing I mean,
Speaker 1: he is very gun friendly obviously, and that's I feel
Speaker 1: like one of the things that he's known for that
Speaker 1: is his weapon of choice and he so essentially the
Speaker 1: Netflix series had to tackle that. I know John Burnthall
Speaker 1: has had to tackle that in many um in many interviews,
Speaker 1: and just days before this year's or this past year's
Speaker 1: New York Comic Con, Marvel and Netflix canceled their panel
Speaker 1: for The Punisher because this there was the mass shooting
Speaker 1: in Las Vegas a few days prior that I left
Speaker 1: fifty eight people dead. It is really difficult, I think
Speaker 1: with this continuing to happen in our country to promote
Speaker 1: a gun heavy show. I think that I think what
Speaker 1: they did was right, But I can't imagine being in
Speaker 1: Burntall's shoes and having to answer to this every time
Speaker 1: there is a mass shoot of like, um, hey, your
Speaker 1: show is gun positive, I guess or pro guns? You know? Um.
Speaker 1: I know that that's a question that he has to
Speaker 1: answer quite often. So that was just, you know, something
Speaker 1: that happened with the series that they had to push
Speaker 1: the series back, and they also had to push the
Speaker 1: trailer back. I remember from this past year, and I
Speaker 1: definitely want to give Punish the series credit because the
Speaker 1: show arguably is the best version that character has ever
Speaker 1: been and arguably the most nuanced. And I really want
Speaker 1: to give credit to the fact that they have a
Speaker 1: pro gun seeming character in a show that handles gun violence,
Speaker 1: political correctness, political disparity, UH, domestic violence, Stockholm syndrome, and
Speaker 1: dozens of other very difficult to handle subject matter beautifully.
Speaker 1: The entire show is more intelligent than I ever expected
Speaker 1: to get a punisher. It's more detailed and layered, and
Speaker 1: I want to give a lot of credits to Debra
Speaker 1: and Wall because Debor and Wall's character is basically kidnapped
Speaker 1: at points and then doesn't seem like a victim. She's
Speaker 1: in a position of not being in power and acts
Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't put her as a damsel
Speaker 1: in distress and then overcomes things just with verbs verbiage,
Speaker 1: and I really like this. There's a scene in Punisher
Speaker 1: season one where there's a complete conversation in a hotel
Speaker 1: room about gun control and she's a character that has
Speaker 1: a gun in her purse on her at the time,
Speaker 1: and there's a civil conversation about gun control, and it
Speaker 1: is nuanced. It shows blue and red, it shows both sides,
Speaker 1: and it's in a show called The Punisher, Like I
Speaker 1: never would have thought when I was watching the Spider
Speaker 1: Man animated series in the nineties that guy with the
Speaker 1: white skull in his chest would teach me more about
Speaker 1: both sides of gun control in a show. And that's
Speaker 1: that's full credit to the writer's, full credit to John Burnthal,
Speaker 1: Debra and Wall, everyone that made that show possible. It's
Speaker 1: handling things that need to be discussed in a manner
Speaker 1: that people will actually watch it. I don't watch documentaries
Speaker 1: and gun control, but I watched the hell out of Punisher.
Speaker 1: I would much rather something that is a blockbuster, like
Speaker 1: screw bill Mar. Like I'm basically I'm saying, screw bull Mar.
Speaker 1: I want things. I want blockbusters to have nuance. I
Speaker 1: want these subjects to be in our blockbusters so we
Speaker 1: hear that. I want kids to grow up. No, and like,
Speaker 1: this is right and wrong, and Punisher of all characters
Speaker 1: to do that. I think it's a great representation of
Speaker 1: the character. Yeah, I was gonna say this is from
Speaker 1: an a V article where it said it's unfair because, um,
Speaker 1: The Punisher is hardly the only series to start a
Speaker 1: hero who shoots people. It's very on point. They're right,
Speaker 1: there are tons of them. Yet the handwringing about Frank
Speaker 1: Castle doesn't swirl around other gun wielding heroes like Deadpool,
Speaker 1: James Bond always with a gun, Indiana Jones, or John
Speaker 1: Wick very famously with many guns, at least not to
Speaker 1: the same extent. Yeah. True. Um, And so this was
Speaker 1: a question that was uh that was posed that if, um,
Speaker 1: if we're going to continue to have this, if there
Speaker 1: are always you know, mash shoot in America, will there
Speaker 1: ever be a suitable time to release The Punisher was
Speaker 1: a conversation that came up when this was happening, and
Speaker 1: so I think, like I agree with what you were
Speaker 1: saying that they that they did show respect UM by
Speaker 1: delaying it. I think it's still a conversation to have.
Speaker 1: I understand if people don't want to watch this series.
Speaker 1: I think, like you said, it's worth watching, and like
Speaker 1: Jay Since said, I think it's it's one of the
Speaker 1: best um examples of PTSD that we currently have, or
Speaker 1: at least had this past year. So those were just
Speaker 1: some of the harder conversations that we're surrounding this character,
Speaker 1: who was a very complicated character, I think, and like
Speaker 1: you said, times have changed where some of the things
Speaker 1: that were okay possibly to show might have a different
Speaker 1: conversation around them today. And not having the conversation is
Speaker 1: in the answer. Ever, I think not having Punisher come
Speaker 1: out doesn't have the conversation happen. And I think it's
Speaker 1: like in the eighties when everyone smoked and then we
Speaker 1: were like it's fine, and then everyone was dying. I
Speaker 1: think the conversation needs to happen so we can decide
Speaker 1: what the next move is. And I think swinging right
Speaker 1: or left or getting mad at the other side isn't
Speaker 1: going to solve it. Nuanced conversation that happens to be
Speaker 1: on a Netflix show about superheroes is amazing. And the
Speaker 1: fact that that's where we got one of the better
Speaker 1: conversations and one of the better representations of PTSD, that's
Speaker 1: that's a Christmas miracle. Like, I'm not mad at at all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we could end this on a lighter note.
Speaker 1: Season two of The Punishers drops this weekend. I will,
Speaker 1: thus pent be watching it for very personal reasons that
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with John burn Actually, I do
Speaker 1: want to say I watched the series twice. I loved
Speaker 1: it so much. It's just so beautifully written. It's so
Speaker 1: good if you haven't watched it. Um, So I watched
Speaker 1: the first season, fell in love with John burn Thal,
Speaker 1: watched it again and fell in love with Ben Barnes.
Speaker 1: He's so good. Oh he's great. Prince Caspian himself. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's in so many things, but he uh in West
Speaker 1: World too, He's in West World. So um. He loves
Speaker 1: playing he's that's the thing though. It's very good at
Speaker 1: playing a charming villain. Yes, um, he is great in
Speaker 1: the Punisher. And I love the fact that I was
Speaker 1: able to watch it twice and fall for someone different.
Speaker 1: I like that Micro is so important in the show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the and the battle van, Like things that are
Speaker 1: so important to the character to the fans are represented
Speaker 1: on the show in a way that's better than the comic.
Speaker 1: I like, I never thought i'd care about Micro, and
Speaker 1: suddenly not only to care about microL I care about
Speaker 1: Micro's wife, like I'm invested in his family in a
Speaker 1: way that I didn't think I would be, And like
Speaker 1: in the vans and danger like don't hurt the van.
Speaker 1: And that's that's how rewatchable the show is. So I'm
Speaker 1: really excited for season two, which I haven't gotten to
Speaker 1: see yet, because it is a continuation of they built
Speaker 1: a foundation of how much we love these characters. They
Speaker 1: built a foundation of intelligence and a character that isn't
Speaker 1: always intelligent, and a supporting cast that is incredibly strong,
Speaker 1: like the CI agent, Debra and Wall Micro, all of
Speaker 1: these characters that I didn't think i'd love. I can't
Speaker 1: wait to spend thirteen hours with again. Well, uh, there
Speaker 1: is one thing that I want to do before we
Speaker 1: head on out of here, because we wouldn't be a
Speaker 1: nerdy show with out a little speculation. Do we think
Speaker 1: they're going to cancel The Punisher after? We don't need
Speaker 1: to talk about that. You think they're going to drop it?
Speaker 1: For people that don't know, we totally forgot to mention
Speaker 1: that most of Marvel's Netflix series have been canceled. That
Speaker 1: includes Luke Cage. Daredevil got canceled, right. The Punisher very
Speaker 1: interestingly didn't get canceled, but it was because it's still
Speaker 1: had to drop. So that's the big speculation. Jessica Jones.
Speaker 1: Though hasn't It's got a season three coming up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Jessica Jones also after season shots. Um, I love that.
Speaker 1: I know now I can't wait for you. But you
Speaker 1: know what's so fascinating to me, Coin, I'm sure that
Speaker 1: you've had this conversation, is that, Um, you know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't because everyone's like, oh, they're moving over to Disney Plus,
Speaker 1: which is Disney's new streaming service. But it doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like well someone pointed out that contractually they can't even
Speaker 1: do anything with the Yeah, and why would you if
Speaker 1: you're the competation. Okay, so Disney Plus is trying to
Speaker 1: take out Netflix, why would you go, Hey, we made
Speaker 1: this great thing season three, Punisher, go give Netflix your
Speaker 1: money for two years watching the first two seasons. Why
Speaker 1: would you? That's like it's like trading like the all
Speaker 1: the teams to the Red Sox or what like I'm
Speaker 1: bad at sports. It's like doing a thing and sending
Speaker 1: someone to your competition. Why would you ever be like, hey,
Speaker 1: but you have to buy that subscription to see where
Speaker 1: they started. Yeah, when when Luke I was so honestly
Speaker 1: like shocked when they canceled Luke Cage because I really
Speaker 1: loved his series and in a lot of people that
Speaker 1: were working on it didn't know it was getting you know,
Speaker 1: same with Daredevil. They were in the middle of the
Speaker 1: writer's room like they or they were about to start
Speaker 1: writing it. They didn't know that it was getting canceled.
Speaker 1: And everyone's like, oh, I know what you're doing. You're
Speaker 1: just taking it over Dizzy Plus and we're saying, no,
Speaker 1: they're not. You're just not going to be able to
Speaker 1: see them, or if you are, it's not going to
Speaker 1: be who we have seen in those roles unfortunately. And
Speaker 1: I think that they were perfectly cast. I thought Mike
Speaker 1: Culture was a perfect Luke Cage. I thought um blanking
Speaker 1: on yeah, Charlie Cox was a perfect Daredevil. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think that we're but I don't know, but
Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to see them on Disney.
Speaker 1: There's a change Dot organ petition that's at last. I
Speaker 1: checked a hundred and sixty thousand signatures for Save Daredevil,
Speaker 1: which is one of the bigger ones I've seen, and
Speaker 1: like Vincent Donofrio tweeted it out and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's serious. Honestly, Like, the second season of Daredevil is
Speaker 1: one of the best things on Netflix. I think that
Speaker 1: they addressed any issues, you know, when they were starting
Speaker 1: out like they were the they were the guinea pig. Really,
Speaker 1: they were the guinea pig. They were just kind of
Speaker 1: getting funding for what it was. And then after that
Speaker 1: we saw how like, oh crap, this is how good
Speaker 1: it can look, This is how great the dialogue can be,
Speaker 1: this is how great the storylines can be. Um, but
Speaker 1: the first season if Daredevil was the guinea pig, and
Speaker 1: I remember being like, what some of the choices, And
Speaker 1: then second season I think they really were like you
Speaker 1: know what, we heard you guys, and we made it
Speaker 1: even better and they introduced the punish it was so good.
Speaker 1: People forget that an O eight Iron Man came out
Speaker 1: and The Dark Knight came out, right, but they forget
Speaker 1: that The Hulk came out that year too. Ed Norton's
Speaker 1: Hulk came out the same year Resign Man. You gotta
Speaker 1: stumble sometimes and finally way back up, Like, nobody talks
Speaker 1: about that Hulk, that movie that's came in the m
Speaker 1: see you. Nobody talks about that learning curve they had
Speaker 1: to take watching that Hulk movie. It's a lot of
Speaker 1: the nineties problems that they hadn't solved. And I think
Speaker 1: these Netflix shows, the leap of quality and Iron Fist
Speaker 1: season one to season two cannot be overstated. Season two
Speaker 1: is a good show, but season one left such a
Speaker 1: bad taste in our mouths. The ron Fist never got
Speaker 1: a chance, and like the last thirty seconds of Iron Fifth,
Speaker 1: season two is the show we all wanted, but by
Speaker 1: then we endured two years of like we get. So
Speaker 1: it's a shame that Punisher has to die, because there's
Speaker 1: no way they're going to do something with John burn
Speaker 1: Felt as the Punisher on Disney plus like that that
Speaker 1: doesn't fit for any of the things that Disney represents.
Speaker 1: They fired James Gun about tweets from from nine years before.
Speaker 1: They're gonna have a gun toting guys starting like, I
Speaker 1: just don't see it happening under the Disney banner. I
Speaker 1: do think we'll get all rated characters. I do think
Speaker 1: that Mirrormax existed and therefore Kevin Smith got to work.
Speaker 1: Like Kevin Smith and Tarantino both work for Disney effectively
Speaker 1: in the nineties. They can do al rated stuff. I
Speaker 1: just don't see them choosing a controversial character like Punisher.
Speaker 1: So I think I think we might be done with
Speaker 1: Punisher after season two hours later. I don't know. Maybe yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was gonna say, maybe I'll get
Speaker 1: his film, but I don't know if given the current climate,
Speaker 1: if that's what they're going to be investing, and you
Speaker 1: can't cancel it before because the thing about people that
Speaker 1: are in the film industry. Imagine if you're you know,
Speaker 1: a mom that just likes The Punisher that isn't in
Speaker 1: the film industry, and you're like, oh, blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: it's been canceled. You don't think to look for season two,
Speaker 1: So they have to wait until it's already aired. So
Speaker 1: you can cancel it for like logic based, if you
Speaker 1: say it's canceled, you're not gonna go watch it. So
Speaker 1: I think they're literally waiting until it's out for day
Speaker 1: hours later. Maybe we'll be proven wrong. I'd love that. Please. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you know there's there's something. There's something cookie
Speaker 1: up the sleeves. I think. I think there's something that's
Speaker 1: gonna happen that's gonna blow our minds. Maybe it'll happen
Speaker 1: in two years. Maybe it will happen. You know what,
Speaker 1: what if there's many made for TV films on the
Speaker 1: Disney platform. But you do bring a good point where
Speaker 1: I don't know if Punisher could possibly live on that
Speaker 1: Disney platform if they're willing to do that jump. Maybe
Speaker 1: there's a Marvel platform being announced. Who knows, you know,
Speaker 1: something new because you know DC Universe just dropped. Maybe
Speaker 1: Marvel is gonna have their guns. But it it is
Speaker 1: like a tricky thing because that that is a good
Speaker 1: point because there until I see the original seasons disappear
Speaker 1: from Netflix catalog, I think nothing's going to happen just yet.
Speaker 1: Until we see once you start and them disappeared, then
Speaker 1: that's when it's like they're up to something. When I
Speaker 1: know it was over, it was when we got Award
Speaker 1: show screeners that said Netflix on them before Marvel and
Speaker 1: their Netflix shows that are Marvel characters. They're not Marvel
Speaker 1: shows released by Netflix. That's the difference, I think, and
Speaker 1: that's why I don't think we'll see them on Disney Plus.
Speaker 1: And also the subject matter. I think we're more likely
Speaker 1: to get a new Daredevil than five years I think,
Speaker 1: than Charlie Cox on Disney Plus. As much as I
Speaker 1: want that, Dared Devil Is is one of my favorite
Speaker 1: shows hardstop, not just comic show. I think it's one
Speaker 1: of the best shows that exists. So I'm the first
Speaker 1: person to be lining up to watch it wherever it lives.
Speaker 1: I just don't know legally if that will work and
Speaker 1: if it works for what the m c US building
Speaker 1: they think about, oh eight, they already knew that by
Speaker 1: the end of things, we'd have at least through Ultron.
Speaker 1: They film they do five ten years ahead. I can't
Speaker 1: imagine they'd want to incorporate things ten years ahead that
Speaker 1: are in someone else's wheelhouse, Like why would you start
Speaker 1: planning for something that may or may not happen, Like
Speaker 1: Spider Man. Once we got the character back, it started
Speaker 1: being within two years holy crap homecoming. But with all
Speaker 1: of these characters on Netflix, they wouldn't start accounting for
Speaker 1: those YEA, Logically, as much as I want it, like
Speaker 1: I'll watch Darvill season one, two and three a hundred
Speaker 1: times by the time because I'll be that'll be all
Speaker 1: I have. Dan, We'll see. I'm excited to see Jigsaw
Speaker 1: coming out though, Ben Barnes reprising his role as Jigsaw,
Speaker 1: and I like that they're doing. If he's seen a
Speaker 1: new trailer where it looks like a psychological Jigsaw, he
Speaker 1: describes his face is busted up. Last episode. I know
Speaker 1: because he's so oh you got a cat scratch, bro,
Speaker 1: he's so pretty and I'm not kidding you that last
Speaker 1: episode John burnt Ill beat the crap out of his face, Like,
Speaker 1: holy crap, Now this will never happen. But Tinfoil hat theory,
Speaker 1: if I had my way, if I was in control
Speaker 1: of reality, I'd have all them show up at the
Speaker 1: end of endgame and that would restart the universe. Tinfoil
Speaker 1: hat theory. They go through a new So my theory
Speaker 1: and in game is that we're going into a new
Speaker 1: dimension and all the characters that died in Finn you
Speaker 1: are actually did I think that Challa is gone. I
Speaker 1: think Peter Parker's gone. I think all that's actually you're
Speaker 1: you don't know that they have three film like three
Speaker 1: picture options. But the Peter Parker and Far from Home
Speaker 1: is a different to mention the Peter Parker. I think, oh,
Speaker 1: you're saying they're different to mention. There's no way they're
Speaker 1: already getting rid of Chadwick both because like both him
Speaker 1: and which Tom Harland Holland accidentally said that he already
Speaker 1: has like three pictures. He has two, he has two
Speaker 1: more movies, you know, Far from Home, and he's got
Speaker 1: one more after that. Your tinfoil hat theory is very
Speaker 1: similar to minds, which is the sense that when the
Speaker 1: world is restored, we find out that mutants have existed,
Speaker 1: and that's how we're going to incorporate the X Men,
Speaker 1: and that's how Scarlett, which has her own series, I
Speaker 1: think I think we am of House, not House of
Speaker 1: m What if she says mutants and it activates the
Speaker 1: ex gen and mini series and then we get that
Speaker 1: new universe. I also think that if you go to
Speaker 1: a new dimension, how crazy would it be if we
Speaker 1: finally get the Defenders in the Marvel universe, Like it
Speaker 1: can't happen, but that would be its reality. I think,
Speaker 1: because I again am in love with John burnt All,
Speaker 1: I want him to continue. I think this is going
Speaker 1: to be like his Walking Dead moment, and if if
Speaker 1: he doesn't get to come back as the Punisher, He's
Speaker 1: just gonna level up and get another This time, it's
Speaker 1: going to be a cinematic hero though. I think instead
Speaker 1: of just a TV he played essentially a TV villain,
Speaker 1: TV villain, I think he's going to get something big movie.
Speaker 1: His Taylor Sheridan works great. Who would you cast him as?
Speaker 1: Does anybody you want him? Um? Oh no, because you know, um,
Speaker 1: I could see his ruggedness being Wolverine being Wogan. But
Speaker 1: you know, I just don't know if I want well,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I don't know if I want Wolverine back
Speaker 1: this close. I think that we're still too close to
Speaker 1: when Hugh Jackman played him. I think he played him
Speaker 1: so like, I just don't know if I want another
Speaker 1: rugged you know, Griff like Wolverine that I think you
Speaker 1: need to establish the X Men first. I think I
Speaker 1: want the original five. I want to live with them
Speaker 1: for a few movies before you want them young? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want Harry, Yeah you want Yes, I want to
Speaker 1: go Harry. Even though I think that John Burnhal could
Speaker 1: be Wolverine, I think that we need to see him younger,
Speaker 1: like what they're doing in Spider I mean, obviously Peter
Speaker 1: Parker is a teenager in the comics, but like, we're
Speaker 1: probably gonna have Tom Holland for a little bit, you know.
Speaker 1: I think we'll have Tom and then he would be
Speaker 1: thirty because he's like twenty whatever four now, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think the Going In and skier Ron where he's like
Speaker 1: a college professor. Like I'd love to see a long
Speaker 1: form like Peter Parker where we evolve an age with him,
Speaker 1: cause that's why the character so loved is we've lived on.
Speaker 1: What would you do if you're watching The New Spider
Speaker 1: Man and he's fighting off and for some reason, he's
Speaker 1: fighting off against this guy named the Jackal as the punisher.
Speaker 1: To reprise that fun fact, John Burnthal Tom Holland did
Speaker 1: a movie to Yes. John Burnthal and Tom Holland helped
Speaker 1: each other auditions for their respective roles in the universe.
Speaker 1: So Tom Hollow was there when he was auditioning for
Speaker 1: Punisher and vice versa. So if that happened, that would
Speaker 1: be the ultimate life imitating art back to life. That
Speaker 1: would be the most perfect thing. Once again, we're in
Speaker 1: tinfoil hatland. But I would lose my I would run
Speaker 1: out of that theater screaming. You see, like Pilgrimage. It
Speaker 1: was the Pilgrimage that came out and last year it
Speaker 1: came out. Um and yeah. While they were on set
Speaker 1: they helped each other. John Burnthal helped Tom Holland with
Speaker 1: his audition for Spider Man. Blows my mind. I just
Speaker 1: think that's so magical. I think it's so cool. And
Speaker 1: one of my other favorite things, the fun fact of
Speaker 1: is on The Revenant, Tom Hardy was doing all those
Speaker 1: doubs or what are those? What are those video where
Speaker 1: you sing over things? Yeah, he was doing those, but
Speaker 1: he was in a Punisher had a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: so I kept being like, oh, is he gonna be
Speaker 1: and right, he's another almost logan. Yeah yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know who Maybe we need a different type of
Speaker 1: logan though. Yeah. So my John Burnthall would be a villain.
Speaker 1: I think he'd be a good Shaw and the X
Speaker 1: Men villain with those Mutton shops and like leading the
Speaker 1: hell Fire. If he's gonna have Mutton shops, he a
Speaker 1: thousand percent could be Lobo. Oh yeah, Lexie Alexander directing
Speaker 1: John burnthall Lobo. It's all come full circle. I'm so
Speaker 1: surprised that DC hasn't even jumped the gun on Lobo
Speaker 1: since that's basically their deadpool. Michael bay Is, I think
Speaker 1: they're coming in with it. I think Michael is directing
Speaker 1: a Lobo movie. I think they're coming in and they
Speaker 1: I want them to bring me on in some capacity.
Speaker 1: I've pitched for Lobo so much of him coming, But
Speaker 1: originally when I wanted him, it was like either Joe Magnello,
Speaker 1: who I think would be perfect as Lobo, um Jason
Speaker 1: and Mamo is already taken in that universe, so I
Speaker 1: think the Rock Yeah, yeah, and there you have it.
Speaker 1: We can dream. Yeah, Koia, where can everyone catch you?
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at c
Speaker 1: O Y j A N D R E A U.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Collider Heroes all the time.
Speaker 1: You can find me movie fighting all the time, because
Speaker 1: it is the rare opportunity to me to talk as
Speaker 1: fast as my brain wants me to talk, and you
Speaker 1: can find me. A to comic cons is here, So
Speaker 1: I think I'll be popping over to Amazing Con. Why
Speaker 1: if you guys are in Honolulu, I think you're doing
Speaker 1: that one and yeah, and I'm popping. I'm doing more
Speaker 1: stuff with Nerdis. So just find me on the internet
Speaker 1: because I love the conversations on Twitter, like Engage. My
Speaker 1: favorite thing is talking to fans about comics because I
Speaker 1: spent my entire childhood wanting to have these conversations. Now
Speaker 1: that I do it for a living, it's the And
Speaker 1: I'm going to be on your show next week talking
Speaker 1: about The Punisher and see we will have watched it,
Speaker 1: and we will know if some of our stuff is
Speaker 1: we get a sequel to this, we'll see, Oh, so
Speaker 1: we should do it. One one theory you have for
Speaker 1: Punishers season two we kind of touched on. I think
Speaker 1: they're going to kill Jigsaw. I think I think they're
Speaker 1: gonna kill Micro. I yeah, I think they're gonna kill Micro.
Speaker 1: I think they're going to kill Jigsaw and I think him. Oh,
Speaker 1: I would love it. You guys are gonna see me
Speaker 1: tweeting if this happens, I think him and Debra and
Speaker 1: Wall are going to like actually do it. They've been teasing,
Speaker 1: they've been teasing. I think she's going to be a
Speaker 1: surprise that they shouldn't have revealed to us. I think
Speaker 1: she doesn't come into late in the game and it's
Speaker 1: a big moment, like she saves him. I think she
Speaker 1: saves Frank later in the game. And I wish they
Speaker 1: revealed she was in it. But it's a good marketing.
Speaker 1: And I think they killed This is something I'm saying.
Speaker 1: If they killed two either of those women that are
Speaker 1: in there, I will be mad because it'll seem like
Speaker 1: it's just another like killing a word like killing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And um, I want to see him in a Deborah
Speaker 1: consummate there. Whatever they have going on, I need it. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, it has a little bit of spice. Those
Speaker 1: all of those Marvel Netflix series always have a little
Speaker 1: bit of spice. And by spice, I mean people doing
Speaker 1: it in the bedroom. So they got to get some coffee,
Speaker 1: you know. That was the first episode of Luke Cage
Speaker 1: when he came back. That was the first thing he
Speaker 1: did with Claire on the kitchen table. I don't even
Speaker 1: know this probably is going to get cut on a
Speaker 1: lot to say, I am at ms Danny Fernandez. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I will be on Collider Heroes. I think there yep,
Speaker 1: talking about the Punisher with Coy and Amy. Um. And
Speaker 1: I don't know what cons I'm at, so I guess
Speaker 1: just stick around on my Twitter when I announce it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know me, I'm if you why the way
Speaker 1: I f y n W A d i w E
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram, if d s on Twitch. Thank
Speaker 1: you all from stopping by dropping those Twitch Prime subs.
Speaker 1: If you don't know, if you have Amazon Prime, you
Speaker 1: can sign up to Twitch, turn it into a Twitch
Speaker 1: Prime account and give me a sub that costs you
Speaker 1: zero dollars and just come by every month and re
Speaker 1: up that sub. Come hang out on the stream. We're
Speaker 1: talking about stuff that happened in the episode. We'll hang
Speaker 1: out in the discord. Flickery big shout out to him
Speaker 1: always dropping the cliff notes right in the discord so
Speaker 1: you don't even have to click in the episode. He's
Speaker 1: doing that for y'all so we can look at the
Speaker 1: episode discussion, get the cliff notes, and have that talk
Speaker 1: right there. Danny's in there. You can tag her. I'm
Speaker 1: in there, hang out in the discord. That's uh disc
Speaker 1: to dot g g Ford slash Salt Squad. And like
Speaker 1: I said, if he's on Twitch unneath those Twitch Prime subs,
Speaker 1: a lot of NERD fan coming in. Give it to me.
Speaker 1: I got to say thank you for that love. Let's
Speaker 1: keep that love going. You know what if he wanted
Speaker 1: to say before we wrap, is that you know, we
Speaker 1: talked a lot about um gun violence and a lot
Speaker 1: of different things on this podcast, in particular given a
Speaker 1: subject matter. So just please be respectful to Iffy, myself
Speaker 1: and Coy. If you do at us, please do so
Speaker 1: in respectful manner. If you don't agree with us, it's
Speaker 1: okay not to agree, but it's not okay to be disrespectful. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny that you bring that up. I
Speaker 1: wanna quote my good friend, uh Ron Funches. He said
Speaker 1: something today on Twitter that I resonated with so much,
Speaker 1: and I'm meant to retweet him or retweet it now
Speaker 1: after I read it, but he said earlier today quick
Speaker 1: guide for following me. I say what I want, and
Speaker 1: if you disagree and are nice, I will talk to you.
Speaker 1: If you disagree in our rude you get blocked. My
Speaker 1: feet is a dictatorship, not a democracy, and uh I
Speaker 1: feel like that's true for most people's twitters. Just just
Speaker 1: come with respect. We can have discussions and if you
Speaker 1: get to heat to just disengage. We don't have to fight.
Speaker 1: But as always, I'll see y'all online. Staying nerdies