WEBVTT - #130 Jason Flom with Dr. Yusef Salaam in Times of COVID 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.640 Welcome back to our mini series Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:10.280 In the time of COVID. You know, COVID nineteen has 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:13.960 wrecked havoc across the globe. Countless lives have already been 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:18.400 lost this unprecedented worldwide economic devastation, and the Internet is 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:22.360 full of misinformation that has so many people in disagreement 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.239 about what is real and what's the best path back 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:28.720 to normalcy and why does so many plans seem to 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.559 involve callously risking or even losing so many more lives. 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:37.840 All of this while we're living with the restricted movement, isolation, 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.319 and economic anxiety, to say the least, with so many 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.800 ethical and philosophical questions looming in the zeitgeist, I can't 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.639 think of a better member of our wrongfully convicted community 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.000 to guide us through this tough time. So this week 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:54.840 we'll talk to a man along with four other young 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:59.640 teenage boys, which vilified and demonized in the media. Donald 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:04.280 Trump infamously and wrongly took out full page ads in 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.840 the newspaper back then to call for the reinstatement of 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.880 the death penalty just so these kids could be executed 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.960 for a crime they didn't commit. They were barely teenagers 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:17.160 when they were lied to by authorities and pitted against 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.520 each other to give false confessions, and ultimately they were 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:25.200 sentenced to many long years behind bars, only to have 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.399 about a decade later, the man who committed the horrific 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.320 crime at the center of the media law enforcements circus, 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:36.800 Matthias Reyis confess, thereby clearing the names once and for 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.319 all of the Central Park five, now known as the 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:45.440 Exonerated Five. Now, he tells us about how community living 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.440 in his mind, doing things that add value to his 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.680 life and the life of others, Realizing his purpose through 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:55.880 the pain, and his underlying faith were and are the 0:01:55.960 --> 0:02:00.360 keys to his survival. You can hear his story of 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.560 triumph over tragedy in episode eight of season six, as 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:06.840 well as in the interview with one of his co defendants, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.200 Raymond Santana, in the very first episode of season one 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:14.000 of this podcast. His story is told in the Netflix 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.400 documentary series When They See Us, and he's the author 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.200 of Words of a Man as well as being a 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:22.160 prolific public speaker. I'm very proud to call him my friend. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.800 Doctor Yusuf Salaam. I'm coping in the time of COVID. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.680 Today we have a doctor in the house, convicted man 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.720 named doctor Yusuf Salam, And well, welcome back. 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.080 Oh, it is absolutely a pleasure. Thank you for having 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:44.519 me again. 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.800 Well, it's been a whirlwind since we last spoke, you know, 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:53.400 aside from the world going completely haywire and this, you know, 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:58.760 coronavirus taking over the news and our consciousness and how 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:00.000 are you and your family doing right now? 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.639 Everybody's actually okay. So we're in different places in the country, 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.680 of course, some in the south, some in the West coast, 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:11.079 a lot in New York where the epicenter is. Hopefully 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:15.760 things are beginning to subside a bit. I've definitely lost 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.040 some people that I know. It's a very scary time 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.400 as well. Yeah, but we just got to hold on 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.560 to the faith that we have so that we know 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.079 that we won't leave here until our mission is complete. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:29.720 And I think that that's the most important thing. 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.960 And speaking of your mission, since you appeared on the show, 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:37.440 of course, the incredible documentary about the Central Park five 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:41.840 When They See Us was released to great critical acclaim 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.960 as well as to I think a wonderful response from 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:49.200 the audience. So how has that changed your life? If 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:49.560 it has. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.360 You know, it's been a dramatic upshift in the attention 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.600 that we have and also the platform that we have 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.920 in the world in terms of global recognition, and people 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:05.400 always reach out to us for support. It's been great 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.520 to find purpose through the pain. Since the movie has 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.560 been made. You look at our social media, for one, 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:17.919 we went from probably under ten thousand followers all of 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.920 us to over three hundred thousand followers for most of us. 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.320 And of course you look at Corey Wise's following and 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.400 he's over five hundred thousand people. It's tremendous. That reach 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.280 is great and it's a blessing for us, of course, 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.800 because we do have something to say. We do have 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.080 something to share, you know, especially when it comes to 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.280 you know, human rights as it relates to prisoners, and 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:43.839 you know, especially now in the age of COVID nineteen 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:46.160 as it relates to prisoners as well. 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.440 And have you in touch with the other guys and 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.000 how are they holding up during this crisis. 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:54.880 Yeah, we've been in touch. Everybody's holding up as best 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:59.400 they can. I know Raymond's fiance's father have went through 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.200 about of COVID nineteen came out on the other end 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.320 and that's always a great thing to have survived. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:06.159 You know. 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:11.839 Just a side note, Raymond's newfound love and life is encouraging. 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:14.200 You Just look at the peace and happiness in his face. 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.040 Oh yeah, I see him on Instagram and he looks 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.880 like he's on top of the world. You know, he's 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:21.720 got that. It looks like he's in love and that 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:22.240 makes me. 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:24.200 Very happy, you know, yes, indeed. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.040 So I want to talk about the current situation because 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:32.599 people are experiencing this crisis in different ways. The people 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:36.080 who are sheltering at home, who are quarantining, some have 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:39.520 a large family, some are all alone. Some are in 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.760 very small apartments or houses. They're not used to this. 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.480 It's very frustrating for them. But you've been through hell, 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.160 like you've literally been to hell as a young teenage 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:55.640 recently child. You were wrongfully convicted and thrust into an 0:05:55.720 --> 0:06:02.960 environment that was cramped, dirty, hostile, noisy, dangerous, violent, But 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.600 somehow or other, you persevered. And I believe that there 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.080 are lessons that you can share with us. I'm hoping 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:14.160 that can help everyone, including me, to you know, work 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.560 through this, you know, indefinite period of time that we're 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.760 all stuck in together. And you know, and come out better. 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.920 I definitely can appreciate that. You Know, what I did 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:31.320 to maintain my sanity was I began to live in 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.040 my mind more than in what was going on around me, 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.839 and this allowed my mind to remain free as opposed 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.520 to me being completely in bondage. There was a lot 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:45.560 of meditation that I was involved in. There was a 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.760 lot of planning on paper, There was a lot of visualizing. 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.960 You know. One of the things that we have to 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.000 all come to grips with is that once we come 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.440 out of this, it is going to be a brand 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.600 new world. It's not that we were the only ones 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.720 that had experience this, right, This is a global phenomenon. 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.720 And so as a result of that, I think it's 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.560 important that we look at things like how do we 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.560 keep our minds mentally exercised? And I think that that's 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.160 by reading books, of course, I think that's by listening 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:20.440 to audible and things of that nature. Don't just pass 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.800 the time doing nothing. You know, I was thinking about 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.080 all of the essential workers and essential places that they 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.120 kept saying we're open, and of course we had the 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.680 liquor stores and you know, for those people that partake 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.120 I'm not necessarily down on them or saying anything bad 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.400 about them, but we can't. Just as I would say, 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.320 when I first won my lawsuit, they ran up to 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.120 me and said, hey, what are you going to do now? 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:44.640 And I said, well, I'm not going to be sitting 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.680 on a beach sipping my ties. This is now allowing 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.360 me to jump fully into the fight to be a 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.680 full participant in the freedom, justice, and the humanity of 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.680 us as a people. And a lot of that happens 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.600 in your mind. It happens as you plan your work. 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:02.720 You realize that you are born on purpose, and you 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:07.160 have value, and you have something to give. And we 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.800 just have to take that faith and begin to massage 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:12.920 it into our every day. Whether that means that we're 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.800 going to just start exercising, if that just means one 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.080 set up in a day we are better than we 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.440 were yesterday, because that's how it is. That's how we 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:21.880 have to put one front in the front of the other. 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.960 We have to live in our future, because if I 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:26.920 didn't live in my future, I could have never become 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.240 the person that I was to become. I could have 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.480 never had that hope that one day I'll be out 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.720 of here and I'll be a free person, and the 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.000 truth is going to come out, and I'll be able 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:40.120 to utilize my story to transform the world. 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:44.480 I'm still trying to understand how you went from a 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:48.600 kid with hopes and dreams, going to the park, playing ball, 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.880 doing whatever it is that kids do, and one day, 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.480 all of a sudden, you're one of the most hated people. 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.400 And then moreover, you end up in this prison cell. 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:03.360 Everything overnight changed for you and you had to really 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:07.559 become a man overnight in a situation no child should 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.920 ever find himself in. And you talk about meditation and 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:12.760 books and things like that, but let's go back to 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.000 the first day you're in this cell. How did you 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:20.520 find that inner strength, that extra gear that allowed you 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.880 to become a meditator that allowed you to read and 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:26.640 amidst all the chaos and the noise and and things 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:27.040 like that. 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.760 Well, I got to tell you, it wasn't necessarily just me. 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.319 It was definitely a community. It was that that community 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.640 that raises the child. Those people that I had in 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.199 my circle that would write me and encourage me. You know, 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.439 it was those letters from my grandmother that would be 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:44.880 addressed to this person named Master use of salaam. My 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:48.120 grandmother was trying to supercharge me. She was trying to 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.360 get me to think differently. She was telling me, by 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.439 me reading these words master use of Salam, that I'm 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.840 a master of my fate. You know. People telling me 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.960 to be still and listen. People telling me to utilize 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.760 this time to try to find out the why, because 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.120 once you find the why, you can live anyhow, as 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.559 Niittsche says. And I think part of that philosophical reality 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.600 began to take shape when I was asked a question 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.760 early on in my prison bit six months in. The 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.120 officer walks up to me after he's been observing me 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.880 for all this time, and he had one question for me. 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.160 His question was who are you? And I'm thinking that 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.600 I understand what this question means, and I say, I'm 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:31.560 used of salam, one of the guys that they accused 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.280 of raping the Central Park jogger. But I didn't do it. 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.800 And I realized from his response that I had answered 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.400 him incorrectly, because he said who are you? And he said, no, 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.680 I know that. He said, I've been watching you. You're 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:49.800 not supposed to be here. Why are you here? Who 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.000 are you? And it was like a jump start. It 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:58.120 was like a matrix, a neo Morpheus moment where I'm like, 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.600 hold on, like what I like? I know I'm not 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:05.240 guilty of this crime? So why am I here? What 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:09.120 is it that I'm supposed to go through? What is 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.720 it that I'm supposed to grow through? So when I 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.599 come out on the other end, I'll come out of 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:20.959 person better, stronger for all that I had gone through. 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:25.120 And so first day in prison, of course, was fight. 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.079 How do you fight? And so I'm thinking, man, I'm 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.240 hearing the words, I'm hearing people yelling out, I'm hearing 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.760 people telling us that they're gonna kill us. And I 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:37.800 start shadow boxing. And imagine I was growing up and 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.720 my mother sent me and my sister and brother to 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.560 learn martial arts. There were two top instructors in New 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.000 York City at the time. One was a gentleman named 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.440 Master Little John Davis. The other one was doctor Moses Powell. 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.600 I happened to be trained by Massive Little John Davis. 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.200 And the way that they trained us, it was rigorous. 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.480 It wasn't you know, Okay, we're gonna cut the board 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.160 and you're gonna punch the board and be surprised that 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.679 you broke the board because we pre cut it. Now 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.880 we had to punch boards that had no cuts in it, 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.000 and it hurt our hands. We had to do push 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.800 ups on the ground, We had to spar with people 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.360 who were older than us and bigger than us. And 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.360 it wasn't something that I realized until I got to 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.360 prison that they were training us for real life. They 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.440 were training us to survive. They were training us to 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:28.640 be our ancestors' wildest dreams, to not succumb to the pressures. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.360 It's a common known fact in the black and brown communities, 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.160 but people say, oh, yeah, we're going to be DEADO 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:35.959 in jail before we reached the age of twenty one, 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.640 and those of us who became known as the Exonerated 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.320 five did not escape that. And the great thing about 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:45.840 it is that we were able to take these limits 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:47.800 that life gave us and make some lemonade out of it. 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.480 Are there any particular books that have held help you, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.240 either while you're in prison or since you've been out, 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:07.319 or even now that you're experiencing a very different type 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.679 of lockdown that you could share with us that you 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.040 think might be help with other people. 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.199 Man, it's crazy because of course, we are a few 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.920 days into Ramadan, and I'm a Muslim, I'm a practice 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:25.480 in Muslim and I'm fasting. And what gets me all 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.000 the time around this time of the year is that 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:33.520 we have to reorient ourselves to our scripture, which is 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:38.560 the Koran. And I'm saying that because people of faith, 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.000 even if they're not Muslims, can reorient themselves to their scripture, 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:49.319 the Torah of the Bible, any spiritual book that allows 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:55.840 them to reconnect with the Creator. My grounding force has 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:59.800 always been books of scripture. I've read the Bible of 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:04.840 the Koran, and I found tremendous value in that, and 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.240 I read other things besides that. I've read a lot 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.480 of books about the Black experience, and one of one 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:13.400 of the things I've found is that there's a shift 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:17.240 that happens when you understand the black experience but couple 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:21.040 it with humanity. Then you don't get stuck in a 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:25.160 way that is detrimental because all of us are human beings. 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.960 Once you start going into a one sided reality, it 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.600 begins to become problematic and challenging because we live on 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.440 this planet with the rest of us, you know. I 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.400 try to read books that make sense. You know. Of course, 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.360 The People's History by Howard Zen is an important book. 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.480 The Destructure of the Black Civilization A Chancellor Williams is 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.520 another important book. But it all goes back to reading. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.360 We shouldn't consume our time with just doing stuff that 0:14:58.400 --> 0:14:59.960 doesn't add value to ourselves. 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.680 You have certainly become a I think, a really incredible 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:11.240 example of what is possible and how to overcome, uh, 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:13.480 you know, the worst that life can throw at you. 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.720 It was so impactful for me to hear what you're 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.640 talking about, the guard saying who are you? I learned 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.320 from Deepak Choprah to ask myself the same question. And 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.800 I learned that, you know, when we normally think of that, 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.600 who are you? I'm a record executive, I'm a podcast host, 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.960 I'm a I'm a father, I'm ay this, I may 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.640 that all everything can be taken away from you. 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.840 Right, So what happens when you're stripped of everything? Right? 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.640 That happened to us very very early in our lives. 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.080 And I think when I when I delve into the 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:51.720 depths of what that means, the horror of it. Right, 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:58.720 if you think about every child who is born is 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.720 blessed with the ability to be a child. It's blessed 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.360 with the naivety of what life has to offer, the dreaming. 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:11.160 We all have that desire to be something in someone 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.280 and to add value and to be valuable. And it 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.440 may not be as deep as that sounds. We want 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.120 to have a good life, but what happens when everything 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:25.680 is stripped away from you? There's a prayer that Muslims 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.720 praying in Arabic. It says iyaka na abu du la 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:33.680 iyaka a stadi, and what it means in English is 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:39.760 to God. We're saying, you alone do we worship? And 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.920 you alone do we ask for help. Everything that we 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:49.000 have been given is because of the Creator, and it's 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:54.280 a disservice to us when we don't give God or 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.600 the Creator it's due because then we honor God and 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.800 then we're blessed with more to Always talk about like 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.000 how do you get more money by giving it away? 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.720 You know, it's a concept that is kind of aloof 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:09.960 from people who don't have money, who need money, But 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:11.359 this is like how do I give money away? Like 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.399 I need money, like I need money to survive. But 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:18.280 once you find out that charity increases your wealth and 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.560 it increases your spiritual wealth as well. You feel better, 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:23.200 and especially if you give more than what you thought 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.919 you would have given, it begins to feed you and 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:28.760 nourish you in a way that you could not have 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.720 been fed or nourished any other way. And I think 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:36.000 that that's the part that's important. The secret is being 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.000 able to plug back into the source. There's been a challenge, 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:43.200 I think, all along in our lives where we're trying 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.720 to figure out why are we here? What are we 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.520 supposed to do with our lives? And there's those of 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.000 us who have kind of come close to it whove 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.520 kind of figured something out. They're using it to push 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.800 forward in life and add value to life and also 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.280 add value to others. And I think that that's the 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.399 part that's important, being able to share your life in 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.320 such a way where it's no longer about you, but 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:14.359 it's about who else can listen and become enlightened by 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.639 what it is that you've gone through, because if you 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.600 were able to survive it, they can survive it too. 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:22.800 If I went to prison, and I don't say this 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.159 to impress anyone, but rather to impress upon people that 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.120 if I went to prison and got a college degree. 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:34.520 We can do anything. People who are looking for a job, 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.639 who are trying to figure out a way out of 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:41.120 no way, they have time now to use their minds 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.320 in a way that they've never used their minds before 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:47.080 and create solutions to some of the problems that we have. 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:51.560 And some of those solutions are going to yield enormous, 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.359 enormous value. And even if that means that you have 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.239 to go back to a normal nine to five, you 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:02.320 can return to the normal nine name knowing that there's 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.680 something more valuable that you can contribute if you haven't 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:10.200 been doing your best, But if you've been doing your best, 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.400 then you know that that's all you can do. Once 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:15.639 I plug in and say I'm going to do my best, 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.560 I can go into a space that may say, hey, 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.719 we only have a dollar to give you. I'm going 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.879 to give them a two million dollar speech. And it 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:30.440 helps me. It has value and purpose to me. It 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.919 allows me to become better and to show up in 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:38.359 spaces more plugged in, more dynamic, more willing to serve 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:43.840 because it's about the service. That's what it's all about. 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.560 No, I'm with you too. It's interesting. I'm not a 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.720 religious person, but I feel like there is no greater 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.640 joy than in being able to lift somebody else up. 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.359 You've certainly found your gift for doing that, which is 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.800 awesome and great to see, and I know that it's 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:06.480 going to have an impact on people in our audience 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:11.240 who are feeling frustrated, you know. But I have to ask, 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:16.159 there must have been moments when you felt bitter, anger y, 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.840 me type of feeling. Was there a darkest moment that 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.359 you can recall from all those many years you spent 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:23.840 in prison? 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:27.840 You know? I think it all was dark, and I 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.080 think that the light that I found in the darkness 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.160 was when I remembered. Once I began to get nervous, 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.199 then it got more dark. But once I remembered that 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:45.920 I was going through this, or rather I was growing 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.400 through this, then it all made sense. Then I could 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:53.240 see the light imminating more. But if I let the 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.480 darkness consume what I was growing through, I would have 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:57.640 never been able to survive. 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:14.080 You're a father many times over now, and that's got 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.879 to approach particular challenges. I would think with people going 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:18.800 stir crazy in the house, not being able to go 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.359 out to school and do other things the kids are 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.800 used to doing. So I'm interested in your perspective because 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:26.880 a lot of other people are going through the same thing, 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:31.400 and can you share any Is there a funny story 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.840 or anything else from this experience of being stuck at 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:36.040 home with the kids? 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.119 You know? So I think the funniest story of being 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:44.440 stuck at home with the children are finding ways to start, 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.600 like to not go still crazy. I mean, children all 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:50.320 times of the day, all times of the night, they're 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.520 doing all kinds of funny, cool things. You know. We 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:57.840 have these amazing moments all the time where either my 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:02.440 eldest daughter in the house now, who's she's developing her 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.800 ability to really become a great artist, and she's drawing 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.639 these beautiful pieces of artwork. I mean, it's just it 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:13.159 blows my mind because of course the other children are 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.840 just maturing and I'm here, you know, I'm usually on 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:17.600 the road a lot, and I'm usually sharing with the 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:19.480 rest of the world, and so now I have this 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.159 opportunity to be at home, to be a father, to 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.200 be hands on, and to see the growth and development 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:27.920 that happens with the children all the time. And I 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.479 think that that's something that you don't want to miss. 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:33.040 There's a value in that that you really want to 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.320 be able to participate in and be able to witness 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:38.160 and to see. And then of course I have older 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:42.520 children who are in New York, and to share with 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:46.520 them and to talk with them mentally, they are on 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:50.200 a whole nother level. I'm still seeing them as my babies, 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:53.240 but there are adults. They're on the cusp of being adults, 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:55.439 and of course being able to share with them some 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:59.560 of my wisdom and insights adds value to what they're 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:01.000 going through. Yeah. 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.960 I guess that comes back to something that someone reminds 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:06.479 me of frequently, which is when when I say, oh, 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:08.680 I have to go do something, it's like no, no, 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:09.520 you get to. 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:11.879 Go do whatever. You don't have to do it, right. 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.680 So it's really just sometimes changing one word and change 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:18.720