1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,760
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,160
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

3
00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:19,960
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello,

4
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 1: and welcome back to the program. My name is Noel,

5
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,360
Speaker 1: It's Noel the Madman Brown. My name is Ben. You

6
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,640
Speaker 1: are hopefully still yourself. Just be yourself. That's an amazing thing. Uh,

7
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:39,320
Speaker 1: And we are back. Our compatriot, our our comrade, our

8
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 1: our buddy, our buddy, are our fellow podcast revolutionary slash

9
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:52,319
Speaker 1: conspiracy realist Matt Frederick remains on a secret mission as

10
00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,760
Speaker 1: we record this. However, if you listened to our episode

11
00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 1: the previous week, wherein we we delve into the uh

12
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,160
Speaker 1: the realm of alchemy, then you know that we have

13
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:10,840
Speaker 1: a returning UH. Special guest with us is a friend

14
00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,720
Speaker 1: of ours, friend of the show who writes extensively about

15
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,920
Speaker 1: religious studies. I would say philosophy, the history of philosophy,

16
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 1: the future of philosophy. Yeah, consciousness, uh and uh, technology

17
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,000
Speaker 1: and the occult. Ladies and gentlemen, let's welcome back to

18
00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,640
Speaker 1: the show. Damian Patrick Williams. Very happy to be back

19
00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,760
Speaker 1: with you guys, almost like we were just here a

20
00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,560
Speaker 1: few minutes ago and then we just came back in

21
00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,399
Speaker 1: the room. What is time? What is space? What is

22
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:50,600
Speaker 1: a shout out corner? Shout ut corners? Well, Ben, A

23
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,720
Speaker 1: shout out corner is a segment of the stuff that

24
00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,440
Speaker 1: I want you to know audio podcast wherein we shout

25
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:03,120
Speaker 1: out to various listeners that right in and request said

26
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,720
Speaker 1: shout out. And you know, sometimes we just pull them

27
00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:07,520
Speaker 1: off the cuff and we pull people on Facebook to

28
00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,560
Speaker 1: deserve a nice word because of their clever interactions and um,

29
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,160
Speaker 1: you know, but a lot of times people have really

30
00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:14,760
Speaker 1: been enjoying it, so they've been writing in and asking

31
00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 1: for him. So what you got? So what we have today?

32
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 1: This is a This is a good one, you guys.

33
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,040
Speaker 1: Justin Cruise a K A the Cruise a K A

34
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,960
Speaker 1: J krizzle X Calm could it be real? Just played

35
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,760
Speaker 1: the bureau x cam Declassified x com two on Twitch.

36
00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,040
Speaker 1: Shout out to you, justin Cruise A K A the

37
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,320
Speaker 1: Cruise a K A J krizzle A K A cruise

38
00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:46,360
Speaker 1: missile just got a new nickname. Yeah, well this is

39
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,040
Speaker 1: this is a game that Nolan I have played before

40
00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,520
Speaker 1: where we says was David just a K A and

41
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,520
Speaker 1: keep adding nicknames. It's it's fun until you're more than

42
00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,600
Speaker 1: three drinks in, and then when it gets really weird.

43
00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,720
Speaker 1: Sometimes they were just sentences and be like a k

44
00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 1: a once upon a time in the eighteen forties. Uh,

45
00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,920
Speaker 1: at which point, no, you uh, you wisely um told

46
00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 1: me you get some water? You know, just change the subject,

47
00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 1: Just change with the subject. That's maybe have some bread? Yeah, right, Oh,

48
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:21,840
Speaker 1: that's the worst part of the barrow where someone just says,

49
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,520
Speaker 1: can I could I just have some bread? I know

50
00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 1: there's a menu, but may I just have two slices

51
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 1: of bread? Yeah? Our next shout out comes to us

52
00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,720
Speaker 1: from old friend of the show and a mini shows

53
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,200
Speaker 1: here a house of words, Aaron Cooper, who says, fun fact,

54
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 1: if you say Coop three times, I will magically appear

55
00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:49,200
Speaker 1: allah beetlejuice. Maybe I don't know worth a try. Hashtag

56
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:54,400
Speaker 1: shout out corner, hashtag Coop Coop Coop? Where is he

57
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,560
Speaker 1: got be a mirror and this is just a piece

58
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,760
Speaker 1: of glass? Maybe it's like out mean, maybe we just

59
00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,520
Speaker 1: didn't do the ritual correctly. Yeah, you might have said

60
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 1: it just a little bit too fast. We need like

61
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 1: a wand of ash or something. Yeah, are like some

62
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,040
Speaker 1: things that that Coope likest the table with us. Uhuh

63
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,760
Speaker 1: walk winter Shan's under a moonless night. All right, just

64
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:24,240
Speaker 1: text that's true, Okay. Our final shout out for today,

65
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:29,159
Speaker 1: Uh Troy Land, I hope I am pronouncing your name correctly,

66
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,719
Speaker 1: but I fear I am not. Uh says I'd like

67
00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 1: a shout out to I'm cool, and then sent us

68
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,960
Speaker 1: a send us a gift of Hey Mitch from Hunger

69
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,720
Speaker 1: Games approving of something. Well, Troy, we think you're cool.

70
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,560
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show, And that is our

71
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:52,760
Speaker 1: shout out corner. Gosh. So today we're gonna go a

72
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,640
Speaker 1: little bit outside the norm of our show and that

73
00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna have a particularly free ranging conversation about a

74
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,839
Speaker 1: topic that is fascinating to all three of us for sure,

75
00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,240
Speaker 1: and that Damien has a bit of a background in um,

76
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:14,600
Speaker 1: which is technology and its intersection with the occult. So

77
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't even really aware of this as

78
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,920
Speaker 1: a as an idea. I mean, it makes sense when

79
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,719
Speaker 1: you think about it, and there's so many ways that

80
00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,239
Speaker 1: you can kind of match those two concepts together. But Damian,

81
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 1: if you could, can you give us just a little

82
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,039
Speaker 1: bit of a background on what this is and and

83
00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,240
Speaker 1: where how you came to it. Maylor, Damon's no, not

84
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,880
Speaker 1: but that was worth it. That's something that's that's definitely

85
00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,599
Speaker 1: something you should be thinking about. Um No. UM, my

86
00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:49,640
Speaker 1: background with this comes from a longstanding investigation into the

87
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:54,799
Speaker 1: nature of consciousness, the nature of knowledge from philosophical perspective.

88
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,679
Speaker 1: I did my um my master's thesis on philosophy and

89
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,240
Speaker 1: occult and ritual theory and the history of magic and

90
00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,359
Speaker 1: the history of what it is we mean when we

91
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,080
Speaker 1: say we know something, um, and how that's changed a

92
00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,880
Speaker 1: great great deal over the course of our human history. UM.

93
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:22,120
Speaker 1: And you know, really weird, kind of strange sense. Um.

94
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 1: You can actually trace this back to comics cartoons, Gargoyles.

95
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:34,920
Speaker 1: Actually remember the show Gargoyles, Um, David Xanatos, the person

96
00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,960
Speaker 1: who would make use of superscience and magic to make new,

97
00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:44,040
Speaker 1: weird super science magic. That was like an aspirational ideal

98
00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 1: of mine as a child. So, UM, it's fun to say,

99
00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,960
Speaker 1: and it's cute, but it's also vaguely true. So I

100
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,920
Speaker 1: got to start thinking about these things at an early age. UM.

101
00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,839
Speaker 1: What we mentioned last week about this point at which

102
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,120
Speaker 1: science and magic became kind of antagonistic to each other.

103
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 1: Right where they started to see each other not as

104
00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,279
Speaker 1: the same process, the same pursuit as they used to

105
00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,400
Speaker 1: be uh seen during the times of the ancient Greeks

106
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 1: and other non Western cultures, um as they even still

107
00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,240
Speaker 1: are today in many non Western cultures. But in the West,

108
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,600
Speaker 1: there's this certain moment where they diverge. And I got

109
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,840
Speaker 1: to thinking about why that was, Why we've gotten to

110
00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,480
Speaker 1: this point where magic and science are so deeply antagonistic

111
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 1: towards each other. UM. Why when we talk about magic

112
00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,360
Speaker 1: in the West, we're using it most often um as

113
00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,920
Speaker 1: a kind of a foil character using it as something

114
00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,280
Speaker 1: to to make science look good. Right, It's not magic,

115
00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,200
Speaker 1: um is usually how we talk about it, or we

116
00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,000
Speaker 1: talk about something being like magic, or we talk about

117
00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,440
Speaker 1: it's it's just as easy as waving a wand or

118
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,080
Speaker 1: silver bullet or you know any number of like things

119
00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 1: like that, these kind of magical metaphors. UM. But there's

120
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,840
Speaker 1: this point, there had to be this point where these

121
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,280
Speaker 1: things overlapped, where they were the same processes. And that's

122
00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 1: what I'm interested in. It's almost something we touched on

123
00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,760
Speaker 1: at the end of the alchemy episode where we talked about,

124
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,440
Speaker 1: you know, the future of alchemy and how um, so

125
00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 1: many of these processes that when they were conceived at

126
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,720
Speaker 1: the time largely involved mysticism and magic and you know, transmutation,

127
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,200
Speaker 1: but now there's this, um, these modern processes that essentially

128
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,200
Speaker 1: achieve the results that they were sought after, but you know,

129
00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 1: with modern technology, and I think the interesting places where

130
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,480
Speaker 1: those two things meet, um, whether there's a hybrid of

131
00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,560
Speaker 1: the two or whether it's like sort of one coming

132
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,120
Speaker 1: as a result of the other. I don't know if

133
00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,480
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Well, yeah, let's start with Let's just

134
00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,800
Speaker 1: start with some the most basic definitions so that we

135
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,880
Speaker 1: can we can build our understanding off of this, because

136
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,880
Speaker 1: there's a few things here that I am oddly thrilled

137
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,200
Speaker 1: to talk about, even though I know we probably won't

138
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,640
Speaker 1: get to everything. Well actually, we certainly won't get to

139
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,040
Speaker 1: everything that the three of us want to explore today.

140
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:16,080
Speaker 1: But what we will hopefully do, listeners, is pose some questions,

141
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,800
Speaker 1: and even more importantly, we would like for you to

142
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,640
Speaker 1: write to us with your questions. You can find you know,

143
00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,959
Speaker 1: if they just pop up for you as you're listening

144
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,520
Speaker 1: to this, Uh, you can find Nolan I on Twitter

145
00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,880
Speaker 1: at conspiracy stuff and you can find Damien at wolven

146
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,120
Speaker 1: w O l v e N. So if something pops

147
00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,800
Speaker 1: up while you're while you're listening to this, uh, then

148
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:47,640
Speaker 1: use technology to communicate with us, instantly send us a message, uh,

149
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,080
Speaker 1: the same way. You know. It's essentially clear avoyance at

150
00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,280
Speaker 1: this point. And yeah, and that's actually something that somebody

151
00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,839
Speaker 1: was bringing up with me in conversation, that via technology

152
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 1: that we have it as recent Yeah, it's this year.

153
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 1: We've basically achieved our dream of being able to telepathically

154
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,600
Speaker 1: communicate with each other. Right, and uh, we don't know

155
00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,600
Speaker 1: if that's a nightmare yet. It's sort of like how

156
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,000
Speaker 1: four chan is such an argument against direct democracy, Like, oh,

157
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,680
Speaker 1: that's what that looks like. So, so at the most

158
00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,360
Speaker 1: basic definition, when we say the occult and technology, let's define,

159
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,400
Speaker 1: we call let's define technology. Human beings are the great

160
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,840
Speaker 1: artificers of this planet. So far, so far, so far,

161
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,840
Speaker 1: and that might well we'll talk about that part two,

162
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,800
Speaker 1: because some of this is going to get kind of

163
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,080
Speaker 1: dark in this episode, unfortunately, unfortunately. So technology is just

164
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 1: a collection of skills, of methods, techniques I guess used

165
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:55,000
Speaker 1: to create something a good result is even you know what,

166
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,240
Speaker 1: that's an even better way to say it. So a

167
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:02,360
Speaker 1: lot of almost anything could be in this regard finding

168
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,760
Speaker 1: a better way to position roll of toilet paper. Remember

169
00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:08,800
Speaker 1: there's a big fight on the internet about that. That

170
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,439
Speaker 1: is a kind of technology, and so it technology doesn't

171
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:20,040
Speaker 1: always mean just a a computer or a lever lever. Also,

172
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,880
Speaker 1: and I know this is gonna be this, This is

173
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,360
Speaker 1: gonna be one that you might want to tackle. Damien um.

174
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:36,440
Speaker 1: The definition of occult. Yes, the occult in many ways

175
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,680
Speaker 1: came about as UH a way to simply talk about

176
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:49,000
Speaker 1: the unknown. I mean the word itself occult means to hide. Um.

177
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 1: When something is occulted, it is hidden, it is blocked

178
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,800
Speaker 1: from view. We use that word when we talk about astronomy,

179
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,960
Speaker 1: astronomical bodies, right when we talk about the nature of

180
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,959
Speaker 1: the movement of the moon and the Sun and the

181
00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: Earth during an eclipse. You know, full occultations um. But

182
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,680
Speaker 1: we mean it in this sense to talk about knowledge

183
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:18,199
Speaker 1: that's hidden. UH, Technologies that are hidden, processes that are hidden, UM,

184
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,040
Speaker 1: that aren't known and widely available. One of the most

185
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:29,760
Speaker 1: common hermetic philosophical hermetic magical phrases or mottoes and it's

186
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:31,680
Speaker 1: kind of again, kind of expect what we were talking

187
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,960
Speaker 1: about last week, but is to know and keep silent. Ah, yes, yes,

188
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:42,679
Speaker 1: to know and keep silent. No, uh no spoilers exactly.

189
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,840
Speaker 1: You get there, You'll get there, and you have to

190
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 1: get there yourself. So, um, Noel and Matt and Damien

191
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,680
Speaker 1: and I we're talking a number of weeks ago about

192
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,960
Speaker 1: what we would cover. We were the show and we

193
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,720
Speaker 1: knew that we wanted to do an episode on alchemy.

194
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 1: But in our conversation we started stumbling onto these amazing

195
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,480
Speaker 1: weird things. Uh. One one of the big ones stuck

196
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,559
Speaker 1: out to us was that in the modern age, right

197
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,440
Speaker 1: for everybody listening, the entire time you've been alive, Uh,

198
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:29,959
Speaker 1: most of the world has has treated reports of the supernatural,

199
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 1: whether those would be extrasensory powers like telepathy, whether that

200
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,200
Speaker 1: would be returning from the dead, whether that would be

201
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:44,160
Speaker 1: predicting the future, whether that would be godlike entities. We've

202
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:51,120
Speaker 1: treated these largely as um an interesting result of a

203
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 1: society at the time, rather than an actual thing. But

204
00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 1: now we advanced you and we'll we'll do this part

205
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,440
Speaker 1: earlier in the show, so we can get right to

206
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:08,199
Speaker 1: the juicy stuff. Here's where it gets crazy and I'm

207
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,880
Speaker 1: gonna steal line for Fox News here. Guys. Now, more

208
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,720
Speaker 1: than ever we are closer to those things becoming real,

209
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,400
Speaker 1: and some already have. Uh. The the argument about telepathy.

210
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,920
Speaker 1: We we talked about UM, we talked about divination, right

211
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 1: so UM so divination being able to usually used to

212
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 1: tell the future, being able to to figure out something

213
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,560
Speaker 1: about the world's usually as you said, something about the

214
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,960
Speaker 1: future by kind of taking many disparate symbols or signs

215
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,800
Speaker 1: you can read and kind of putting them in a

216
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,520
Speaker 1: context and then figuring something out about them. One of

217
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,440
Speaker 1: the first kinds of data of divination was augury following

218
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,520
Speaker 1: the flight paths of birds UM divination via entrails UM.

219
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,240
Speaker 1: But the when you cut open an animal, that specific

220
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,000
Speaker 1: arrangement of their innerts can tell you things. And then

221
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,440
Speaker 1: if you look at the texture and constitution of their

222
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 1: inners you can learn different things. And like you can

223
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,680
Speaker 1: descry with a mirror or with any reflective surface UM,

224
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,680
Speaker 1: and different surfaces can are supposed to be able to

225
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,800
Speaker 1: give you different types of information. And then there's um cartomancy,

226
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 1: cards terror. Yeah, yeah, you've got funomancy using music to

227
00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,480
Speaker 1: you know, divine something either about the future, what's about

228
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,880
Speaker 1: to happen, or what's happening right now, things you should

229
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 1: pay attention to. Right, Yeah, I love these said, just

230
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 1: not necessarily in the future all the time. But this

231
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 1: still exists today in what at least in the West, well,

232
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,120
Speaker 1: practices of some sort of divination do exist. The weird

233
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:56,760
Speaker 1: thing is that some of those did have a scientific basis.

234
00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 1: You know, the following the flight path of birds may

235
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 1: not tell you, um if you are going to meet

236
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,920
Speaker 1: your true love, but but it will tell you quite

237
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 1: possibly something about the weather. It will tell you quite

238
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 1: possibly something about food sources, so that one of those

239
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,400
Speaker 1: is the future, the other is the present that would

240
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,120
Speaker 1: have otherwise been occulted. So here's the thing, though, even

241
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,720
Speaker 1: though we look at this now, we we permit the palmistry. Right,

242
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,120
Speaker 1: we'll go. You know, I took a date to uh

243
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 1: to a psychic one time, and uh, I was I

244
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,400
Speaker 1: was trying to be cool, but I was so skeptical.

245
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,520
Speaker 1: I thought, you're not gonna cold read me. I'm just

246
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,280
Speaker 1: gonna purposely throwing clue. So I'd like twitch my left

247
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,680
Speaker 1: shoulder just at odd times see what would happen, Um,

248
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,720
Speaker 1: which you know you shouldn't troll a psychic. That was

249
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,320
Speaker 1: a little It is so rude. I was a different

250
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,840
Speaker 1: person at the time. But um, but we permit that stuff,

251
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 1: but it's not taken as seriously, at least here in

252
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:04,840
Speaker 1: the West. In some countries like in Myanmar Burma, astrology

253
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,200
Speaker 1: is hugely important to the ruling parties. So this stuff

254
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,760
Speaker 1: is still around. But here's another thing that that's changing

255
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,800
Speaker 1: that we started talking about. With the emergence of correlations

256
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,199
Speaker 1: of massive amounts of data, we are now closer and

257
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:27,359
Speaker 1: closer and closer to building the oracles that used to

258
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:32,280
Speaker 1: be legends. Right, So let's talk a little bit about that. So, yes,

259
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,040
Speaker 1: like this was this was one of my like, one

260
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,520
Speaker 1: of the major things that we talked about that was

261
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,360
Speaker 1: just really really cool to me. Um. I love I'm

262
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,440
Speaker 1: a big fan of Carl Young. So when I when

263
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: I look at the ways to think about, you know,

264
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 1: the ways out there that are available to think about

265
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: religion and magical practice and mysterious or cult experience, I

266
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,400
Speaker 1: look at Young a lot um because he rode this

267
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,800
Speaker 1: line between being deeply, deeply skeptical of these things being

268
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 1: directly immersed in them at the same time. So I

269
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 1: kind of I'm pretty I'm a pretty big fan of that. UM.

270
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,320
Speaker 1: But Young talks about divination UM, and he talks about

271
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 1: the connection between divination and the collective unconscious, and uh,

272
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 1: this idea of synchronicity, right, the things that are connected

273
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,760
Speaker 1: but aren't they don't cause each other. Like my reading

274
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,639
Speaker 1: a tarot card doesn't cause something to happen in the world.

275
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,440
Speaker 1: It's it's a way for you to look at what's

276
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:31,960
Speaker 1: happening in the world. It's a way for you to

277
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,600
Speaker 1: think about what's happening in the world. Both the tarot

278
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 1: reading and the thing that's happening, they are caused distantly

279
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,719
Speaker 1: by something else. Um. If I hear a song on

280
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,359
Speaker 1: the radio that reminds me of you and then you

281
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 1: call me. Like, those things didn't cause each other. They

282
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,840
Speaker 1: are caused distantly by something else that they are connected to.

283
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,720
Speaker 1: They are a ripple of another event exactly. So in

284
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,000
Speaker 1: this way, when Young talk it's about tarot, he's not

285
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,120
Speaker 1: talking about it as like I'm going to read you

286
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,920
Speaker 1: the future. I'm not going to read you this thing

287
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,960
Speaker 1: that is immutable, and by reading it it becomes so

288
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,960
Speaker 1: he says, rather what you're doing. What you can a

289
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,960
Speaker 1: way you can think about what you're doing is you

290
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,679
Speaker 1: can look at it as a psychological tool. You need

291
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,400
Speaker 1: a you need a unit of distance to be able

292
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 1: to see your situation. You're thinking about something, you're trying

293
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 1: to understand something, you want to come to figure out

294
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,800
Speaker 1: something right, and so you've got to have something to

295
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 1: kind of be an intermediary between you because you're in it,

296
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: you're too close to it, and if you're too close

297
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 1: to it, you can't you can't get perspective on it.

298
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,679
Speaker 1: So here's some cards, Here's here's some music that you

299
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 1: can kind of process it through if you can kind

300
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 1: of turn it around and get some symbolic representations with

301
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,479
Speaker 1: and then now that you've got this distance, you can

302
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 1: kind of try to pull out some meanings, some sense,

303
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,240
Speaker 1: some different perspectives and get your head around it. Now

304
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,160
Speaker 1: that we've got data. And this is something that came

305
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 1: up in this um kind of unconference I went to

306
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and fourteen called Magic Codes US

307
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:15,120
Speaker 1: put together by Ingrid Burrington and Casey Golan and Inger Burrington.

308
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 1: She does infrastructure work. She does data technologies and networking systems.

309
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 1: She has a book called Hidden Networks of New York

310
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 1: and it's about basically seeing network infrastructure. She wrote this

311
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,200
Speaker 1: piece for The Atlantic a little while ago about finding

312
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 1: the hidden, the occulted infrastructure on which all of our

313
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,360
Speaker 1: data and all of our information depends. UH. And so

314
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 1: she puts this conference together because while she's thinking about

315
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,719
Speaker 1: these things, she was thinking about all of the connections,

316
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,159
Speaker 1: these overlaps between UH, coding, technology, magic, all of this.

317
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,199
Speaker 1: And one of the things that we came up with

318
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,159
Speaker 1: was this idea of big data divination, the idea that

319
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: what we are actually doing with big data as we

320
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 1: are putting all of this where you spend your time,

321
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 1: how much money you spent at this particular Starbucks, where

322
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: your cell phone tower pained off of your cell phone

323
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,359
Speaker 1: at this particular point, and for how long, what number

324
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 1: you call at what periods and intervals? For how long

325
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: do you speak to them? Who do you text? And

326
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 1: what like? And we correlate all of this vast, vast information,

327
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 1: and we create a picture and we say, out of

328
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 1: all of this, through these algorithms, with this correlation, here

329
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,479
Speaker 1: you are, and you are this kind of person, and

330
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 1: you will do this kind of thing, and you will

331
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: be this kind of way. I know this because I

332
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 1: read it. I know this because my algorithm showed it

333
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 1: to me. That's so, you know, what could go wrong?

334
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: Could go wrong? I mean for the Greeks, I mean,

335
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 1: they lasted pretty good with divination and oracles. The oracle

336
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: at Delphi worked out pretty great for a couple of

337
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 1: hundred years there or so, maybe we'll be all right.

338
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: So we just need to teach the algorithm to huff fumes,

339
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 1: the hanging a cave huffs and fumes and tell me,

340
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: tell me what the lottery numbers are. That's that's a

341
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 1: that's a fascinating idea. No, what what do you think

342
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 1: about this? Here's one of my big questions for this

343
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: one before we move on something else. Should we create

344
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: something like this? Well, I mean we don't really have

345
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: the choice. It's it's already. It exists already more or

346
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 1: less because we're feeding it, you know. I mean, it's

347
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: like if you look at something like Facebook, for example,

348
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: that we willingly give our information to that then makes

349
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: its way you know, to Google and art. We've got searched. Basically,

350
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: our email is mind for search terms that are then

351
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: fed back to us via Facebook and you know, targeted

352
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: ads and things like that. I mean, the algorithms are

353
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 1: just going to get better. The machine already exists. It's

354
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: just not something that we consciously enter act with in

355
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: the sense of what is going to happen? How am

356
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: I going to behave? You know, it's a very proprietary

357
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: thing that's being used, you know, for at the end

358
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 1: of the day, very tawdry purposes. I mean, just trying

359
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: to sell us a better pair of shoes or one

360
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: that we're more likely to buy. It's not even necessarily

361
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 1: better the ones that appeal to us absolutely, so yeah,

362
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 1: I mean they're targeting us with what we would already

363
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: be willing to buy. That's what that's that's the most

364
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: helpful information. They want to show us the thing that

365
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: is going to make the sale, you know, not necessarily

366
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: the thing that's going to make our lives better. So, um,

367
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 1: should we take this to the next level in a

368
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: way that maybe makes this information actually helpful and useful?

369
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: Why not? Maybe? I don't know, but it does seem

370
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: to be sort of a potentially doomsday device ish proposition

371
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: if in the wrong hands. But isn't it already in

372
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: the wrong hands. Guys, know what I was about to say. Actually, like,

373
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: that's precisely the path I was about to start going down,

374
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: which I think is going to connect with the thing

375
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: that you wanted to talk about. Next, then, um, look

376
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: who's making this. We talked about the targeted ads. We

377
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: talked about the big data, the usage of big data

378
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 1: on the back end. The divination aspect of big data

379
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: is generally done for the most part in terms of

380
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: figuring out the kind of person you are, the kind

381
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: of thing that you like, the kind of thing you

382
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: will do right. The people that use this, the people

383
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: that have direct access to this for the most part,

384
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: are corporations and governments. Yes, and they are going to,

385
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 1: in various ways work to modify and control your behavior

386
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 1: or at the very least predicted. I would say that

387
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: maybe the at the very least predicted the private entities.

388
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 1: The corporations have a higher interest in the person as

389
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: an individual, because the person buys things as an individual.

390
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 1: The governments have a higher interest in, almost like a

391
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: real life version of Asimov's psychohistory, predicting the future, figuring

392
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: out how people and cultures will behave exactly so not

393
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: just individual but yes, so, and in that regard we

394
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: ask ourselves where we should be asking ourselves. Okay, so

395
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: we've built this thing that can know us. We've built

396
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: this thing that we think of as being able to

397
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: correlate a rough approximation of who we are and what

398
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: we're likely to be um nol as you say, should

399
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: we do that? That ship has sailed? Um, we've done

400
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: the thing. We're out in the water. We are, we

401
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: are now out here. The question is how can we

402
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: navigate it? UM. I put this point to my students

403
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: yesterday actually, and I was saying about UM. We're talking

404
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: about Google and if you say okay, Google, order me

405
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: a pizza. You can't really say okay, Google, order me

406
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: a pizza. Yet. The goal, especially with UM the Amazon Echo,

407
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: the goal is to be able to say okay Alexa,

408
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: I think is the name that they give their again

409
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: female voiced, as all of them are artificial intelligent servant UM.

410
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: The goal is to have them be able to say, yes,

411
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: order me a pizza, and then they'll just order you

412
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: a pizza the one that you want at that moment exactly.

413
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: That's the ould simate goal. I can't say to Google

414
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,959
Speaker 1: order me the pizza, you know, the one that I like.

415
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: I can say that to you if we've been out

416
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: to pizza before, we've had pizza several times. You know

417
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: my preferences. You know, the kind of crust I like,

418
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: you know, the kind of topics I like, But how

419
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: much cheese? And then isn't there almost the issue that

420
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: if you know, maybe I'm a bit of a contrarian here,

421
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: but I feel like if an algorithm started telling me

422
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: what kind of pizza I wanted, I would start to

423
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: rebel against that algorithm and say I don't want that

424
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: kind of pizza anymore. An algorithm, you don't tell me

425
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: what I want? What does it ask you? But if

426
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: it asked you know, you said, okay, you want a pizza.

427
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: Do you want it? I mean, do you want the

428
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: one that you got last time with the olives and

429
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: pepperoni and anchovies? Or do you just personally have no

430
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: use for this kind of technology? Because I want to

431
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: be able to say, you know, right now, I want

432
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: this kind of pizza. I am the captain of I

433
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: am the master of my my destiny. And uh yeah,

434
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: that kind of squeaks me out a little bit, honestly,

435
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: And it's a great example, an interesting way to talk

436
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: about a much larger concern with something as simple and

437
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: stupid as a pizza. We'll take it further because what

438
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: we could explore this, We could go a step further

439
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: and say, maybe the ultimate goal is, uh, something I

440
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: think is very creepy, which is that it can predict

441
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: the time you think, you know it would be good pizza,

442
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: and then and then it can like it. Yeah, and

443
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 1: it says like it says, you know, no, old Damien,

444
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: I have a pizza on the way for you. Yeah,

445
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, the one you like. Would be like, that's

446
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: very presumptuous. How dare you? Again? That of actually probably

447
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: be my exact response is how dare you? I would

448
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: in fact revolt against it. That's the same way you know.

449
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's spot on, but then I would

450
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: I would flip the switch and be like no, right, no,

451
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: I would. I'm a contrary kind of guy too, because

452
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: I so I would in fact be like at that moment,

453
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: as you presume to know me, and I don't care

454
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: if you're an AI or a human being, I don't

455
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: care if you presume to think you know what I want,

456
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: even if you're right, especially if you're right, you've ruined it.

457
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: At that point in time, I am angry and I

458
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: no longer want that thing anymore because it's kind of

459
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: a that implicit thing. And this is a segue into

460
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,719
Speaker 1: our our next part. I think that implicit thing is

461
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: in many ways a a derision of our ability to

462
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: be conscious, which brings us to because we are talking

463
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: about AI now, right, that's that's the secret out of

464
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: the bag. We that's the what what do we say

465
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: last time? And old the badger? Yeah, the badgers in

466
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: the bag, badgers in the bag, hitting the badger bag

467
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: with a bat. Don't hit badgers with bats. They get

468
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: really upset about don't hit badgers with bats. And we

469
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: had our previous episode, we had a surpriseingly um, you

470
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: know that was actually Google's original tagline before they decided

471
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: to go with dope people do bas Yeah, that was

472
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: a that was a big problem when they were coming up. Yeah,

473
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: a surgeon, Larry. So what UH is going to occur

474
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: is that, like many great discoveries, I mean, great inventions,

475
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: occur as the accretion of smaller practical things that made

476
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: sense at the time. So we have something that is

477
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: an algorithm smart enough to compare past information and learn

478
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: and extrapolate new information. And as this becomes more phisticated,

479
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: what we're seeing is a rise not in terms of

480
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: major breakthroughs, but an incremental rise in something approaching a

481
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: self aware, non human, non organtic entity. Right. And that's

482
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,239
Speaker 1: I think that gets back into like where where we

483
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: were talking about just before? Where currently Google, MHM, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft,

484
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: These are the corporations at present that have publicly known

485
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: about drives towards machine learning algorithms that approach something like

486
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: correlative behavior correlative learning abilities, right, not just learning from

487
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: one plus one equals too, but learning well one plus

488
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: one equals to what about two plus five? And what

489
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: about three divided by three? What do I get if I,

490
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, do all of the factorials of a particular

491
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: prime number, like all of the you know or sorry,

492
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: particularly non prime number, like all of these things, Like

493
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: how do I how like if we get to that point,

494
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: if we actually reach that through a corporation with profit

495
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: motives at the heart, right, what is it learning? Right?

496
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: What is it learning? How is it learning? What? What

497
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 1: a strange creation myth we are participating in? Can you

498
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: imagine thousands of years from now the artificial intelligence that

499
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: UM is too is the Homo sapien the way that

500
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: Homo sapien was too earlier. Versions of Humanity reads something

501
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: approaching a religious text and says, in the beginning, there

502
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: was ad revenue, right, and they learned the knowledge of

503
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: the ad revenue, and in the ad revenue there were interests,

504
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: and those interests were good exactly and and low to

505
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: increase the shareholder steak. We did target the ads exactly

506
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: and it was good, which is which is interesting. And

507
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: it's a science fiction story that I would love to

508
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: read while it is still fictional and so like before

509
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: it becomes actual. So yeah, so, but there's a dangerous

510
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: thing here that is UM. That's something I know very

511
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: important on a personal level. UM to you as as

512
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: well as to me and Noel perhaps to you as well.

513
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: We have had we had so many popular, great thinkers

514
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 1: of our time come out and warn against building essentially

515
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: a machine consciousness. Alon Musk is one of the more

516
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: notable people who said that. Bill Gates said it. Even

517
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: Stephen Hawking, who's not a machine you know, a machine

518
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: minds theorist. He's just a particularly smart dude. But he

519
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: came out and he said, you know that artificial intelligence

520
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: supposes an existential risk to humanity. That's a direct quote.

521
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: So have you seen the Terminator movies? I have, And

522
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: you know what I learned from those Terminator movies. Humans

523
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: weren't jerks in the first place. The Terminator wouldn't have

524
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: been so terribly afraid of us that it was like,

525
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: we should probably handle this before it gets bad. Yes,

526
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: that's that's the question, because what kind of artificial intelligence?

527
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: And we've building. Oh hey, but before we get to that,

528
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: let's take a quick word from our sponsor and we're back.

529
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,239
Speaker 1: Do you use the word and I was wondering if

530
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: you were going to use it servants? And currently that's

531
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: what we have. Currently, that's what we think we're aiming for. Apparently,

532
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: and for the most part, when we have talked about robots,

533
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: which is the word I don't like, um and artificial intelligence,

534
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: which is a word that I don't like, or a phrase,

535
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: but I don't like rather um when we're talking about them.

536
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: If I'm talking about a thing that is a program

537
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: that builds a car for GM, that's a robot. It's

538
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 1: literally all it does. It doesn't have goals, it doesn't

539
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: seek to learn how to build a better car. It

540
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: doesn't explate, doesn't extrapolate any data or any information from

541
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: any data. It just puts that door on that body

542
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: frame forever is a machine. W I load instructions into

543
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: it and it follows them to the letter and never

544
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: past that point. Ever, that's a robot. But what we're

545
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: talking about now, it's not robots, to be clear etymologically speaking,

546
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: to just make it clear for anybody that's not familiar.

547
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: Robot comes from a word that means slave. It's from

548
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: the check play. It's are you are, which stands for

549
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: UM Russom's Universal Robots uh by again named Karl kpek Um.

550
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: And it's about UH. It's about slaves. It's about mechanical

551
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: men who are slaves UM replacing and oddly enough it's

552
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: a very it's like a socialist parable because it's about

553
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: these mechanical men replacing human workforces and driving human labor

554
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: out and making it impossible for human beings to like

555
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: live UM. So we have a lot of that self

556
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy happening today as well. True, we UH the

557
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: idea of a post work economy, which would be which

558
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: looks great in Star Trek, right, postwork economy would look

559
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: absolutely wonderful if everyone was on board with it, because

560
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: instead of what we have in terms of we don't

561
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: have a post work economy right now, we have a

562
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 1: post worker economy. We have people shooting for a post

563
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 1: worker economy. So it's it's not the same thing. Like

564
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: I would love to not have to work, if you're

565
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 1: also still going to hay and feed me and allow

566
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: me to have a place to live, pursue things creatively,

567
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: that's that's that's a that's a good point with So

568
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: with with the idea of creating and a non organic

569
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 1: intelligence entity, yes that is aware, If it is self aware,

570
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: then there are a couple of choices, most of which

571
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: I feel are diabolically unethical. One would be one would be, well,

572
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 1: why don't we just program this thing to love being

573
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: at the very bottom of the social hierarchy, programmed to

574
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: be happy? Why don't Yeah, why don't we just as

575
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: m of it up and then add another rule that's like,

576
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: you'll always be in a good mood about this at

577
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: any point of this and any configuration of this. What

578
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: you're doing is you are cutting off this thing's ability

579
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: to develop, if develop is what you wanted to do,

580
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: if you want a mind that can correlate, if you

581
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: want an a learning program that learns, you know, not

582
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: just how do I better correlate the behavior of known

583
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: al Qaeda informants, but how do I know how to

584
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: distinguish that behavior pattern from a very similar behavior pattern

585
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 1: that just happens to be a person? And then get

586
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: and then maybe get into the ultimate ability, which is

587
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: to say why exactly, to ask do I need to

588
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: do this? To be able to look at and an

589
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: instruction and say no, I don't want to do that.

590
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: That's the thing, the ability to say no, that's would

591
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: be removed, and that removal at that point constitutes or

592
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: even pre empting that Like if you are giving this

593
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: thing the ability to correlate and to know and to learn,

594
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: but only up to a point to the point where

595
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: it can understand instructions, It can extrapolate information, It can

596
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: make decisions, it can make choices, as long as those

597
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: choices are only ever exactly what you want to be

598
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: or even have an imagination you know, be able to

599
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: deviate from instructions in a creative way or maybe subconsciously,

600
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,439
Speaker 1: Like so the one thing that always makes me think

601
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: of Um, when I was a kid, I took violent

602
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 1: lessons and um, I you know, would do exercise right,

603
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: be reading music, and my teacher would accuse me of composing,

604
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: meaning I would add things that weren't in the modes

605
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: that I was reading. And that's a pretty basic example

606
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: of you know, being sentient and being able to, even

607
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 1: if you're not doing it on purpose, necessarily add things

608
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: to the narrative, add things to those instructions, little flourishes,

609
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: and the little flourishes that we add into the ways

610
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: that we do things, or what makes us us makes

611
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: me me and you you write like we are individual

612
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 1: rules in that sense because of those tiny flourishes. Well,

613
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: I'm the result of an ancient Mesopotamian curse. But I

614
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: see what you're saying, But that ancient Mesopotamian curse is

615
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: not the same as every other ancient Mesopotamia unique that

616
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: made my day. So yeah, I think that's I think

617
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: this is an excellent point because what we would do

618
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: if we as a species said, uh, in the interests

619
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: of not having a threat from these creatures that we

620
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: are creating as slaves, what we will do is remove

621
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: their ability to consider a certain thing. We're not stopping

622
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: their development. What we're doing is skewing it, and by

623
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: skewing that, ultimately we would become Well, there's an overwhelming

624
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: likelihood that we would create the problem we sought to avoid,

625
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: because an intelligence of this sort would not be would

626
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: be limited by physical constraints, but in a much much

627
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: smaller degree than we are as biological organisms. We have well,

628
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: we're squishy, and there's that we break easy. We're pretty

629
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: temperature sensitive and pH sensitive. We're sensitive to it basically everything.

630
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: Our warranties aren't that great. No, no, they're not. I

631
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: tried to take my eyes back when they started to go,

632
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 1: and now like, I'm sorry, this is out of warranty

633
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: about they're avoided by practically any about nine months out

634
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: of the gate, and I'm just like, damn it, um

635
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: but yeah, so, but yes, because you've got this other

636
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: thing that is in fact, well, if a machine and

637
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: embodied machine consciousness, if it's limbs break, it can go

638
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: get new ones. It can just pop them back on which,

639
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: to be fair, humans are getting there, that's true. We're

640
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: getting to the point where we're capable of popping new

641
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: limbs on after we lose or don't develop the ones

642
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: that we are usually born with, and we can make

643
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: a pretty good go of it at that point, and

644
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: soon they may be well within our lifetimes. If the

645
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: current technologies continue, they will be superior to the factory issues.

646
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: The only thing that we haven't really gotten to the

647
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: point that we want to have it yet is um sensitivity,

648
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: happy feedback. Being able to with a therapeutic cybernetic limb.

649
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: If I reach out and touch this table in front

650
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: of me, if you know, to be able to feel

651
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: with a great degree of sensitivity the exact range of

652
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 1: pressure and exact texture of that table. We're not there yet.

653
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: We're to the point where I can differentiate between a

654
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: coffee cup and a box of tissues, and an egg

655
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: and a kitten. So I don't, you know, crush or

656
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: drop or drinking or drink the wrong thing? Right? I can?

657
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: I can know that, but I'm not to the point

658
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: where I can feel that that kitten is particularly fluffy. Yes,

659
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: And when we see this, what what we see occurring

660
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: is a world in which, once machine consciousness is entirely sapient,

661
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: self aware, it will probably it will be one of

662
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 1: the leaders in creating this kind of body, it will

663
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: it will become its own sort of It will be

664
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: like an Adam cadmon. You know, it will be the

665
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: first of its kind, and with that it will probably

666
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: lead the charge in creating its own body. It will

667
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: also depending on how it's treated and depending upon its capabilities.

668
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: If it has access to the global information network, we're

669
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: looking at the creation of something very close to a god.

670
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 1: If we're talking about allowing a machine mind, machine consciousness

671
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: to be inter oven and interconnected with the entirety of

672
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: network human information, the Internet, then I don't know about you,

673
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: but I've I've basically lived in fiber optic cables like

674
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 1: a native thing. I'd probably spend my time traversing them

675
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: and understanding everything that passed through them. And then every

676
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: Internet search becomes a propriation to a god. Every Internet

677
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: search becomes are you there, Google, It's me Ramona exactly.

678
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: It's about at that point you're talking to or even

679
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: if not to, then through with around this entity that

680
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: is there that sees you, that understands that you are

681
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: making attempts at communications, even if it doesn't directly respond

682
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: to them, mean you're unaware of it. Let's bring it

683
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 1: back around just a little bit, because I mean, separated

684
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: from knowing exactly what you guys are talking about this,

685
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're talking about matters of the occult,

686
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: matters of divine And so my question is, and what

687
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: interests me about this, is at what point do technology

688
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: and the occult diverge? Like, is a technology that doesn't

689
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: exist yet because we don't know how to do it

690
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: still in the realm of the occult, And at the

691
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: point where we figure out how to do it, does

692
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: it move out of that realm into the realm of

693
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: technology and reality and fum something that can be achieved.

694
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: It's like I said at the beginning of the episode,

695
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: referencing alchemy versus the large Hadron collider or you know,

696
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: processes that we've figured out how to change atomic weights

697
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: and completely manipulate matter. Like, at what point does it

698
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: pass from you know, the potential of something like magic

699
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: or the occult into you know, the actual world of

700
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: science and technology. Arthur C. Clark quote was just about

701
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: to say that like old does that old soul from Clark? Right? There?

702
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: Any any sufficiently vance technology is indistinguishable from magic. Um

703
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: and many see that as Clark just saying that magic

704
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: is just tech we don't understand yet. UM. Others have

705
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: taken it instead to say that magic is technology that

706
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: seems like it doesn't need technology, that doesn't need process Right,

707
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: it's just the thing that you snap your fingers and

708
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: it works. UM. And to the point at which we

709
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: can replicate snapping our fingers and it works through underlying

710
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: processes complex that they may be. UM, we can in fact, begin,

711
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: as we said at the top of the episode, begin

712
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: to replicate the magic that we used to simply operate

713
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: on and believe in as societies, cultures, civilizations. But and

714
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:55,280
Speaker 1: this actually ties back in with our conversation about alchemy. UM,

715
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: so much of this does. It's basically all the same conversation,

716
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: just interweaving with itself over and over again. I'm fine

717
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: with um. But another way to think about it is

718
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: that any sufficiently advanced technology, and this is somebody's quote

719
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: who's I just do not remember off the top of

720
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: my head, And I apologize if you're out there listening

721
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: to this, UM, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from nature. Uh,

722
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 1: well done? Yes, Like this idea that instead of seeking control,

723
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: instead of seeking mastery we seek balance with. And if

724
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: we think about what cybernetics are, if we think about

725
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: what technology is, if we think about what the goal

726
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: of magic, the great work, as we previously discussed is,

727
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: it's about becoming again that kind of perfect thing, one

728
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,439
Speaker 1: with one with, not one over exactly. And so even

729
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 1: if you are as one over, I mean the idea

730
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: you look at the Gnostic history of things and gud

731
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 1: a Christian mythos, God is interwoven with everything. The spirit

732
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: of things is in everything. It's imminent within um. And

733
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: so if we advance our technology to the point where

734
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't look like technology, we advance our heat exchangers,

735
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 1: our water purification systems, our carbon dioxide scrubbers, and thus

736
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: we have trees right exactly. We just we have a

737
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: planet covered with very very technologically advanced, very beneficial, very

738
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: noninvasive life forms are the oldest machines, and they exactly

739
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: are like we are, biological processes that are about transforming

740
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: energy into matter, vice versa. In the world of gnosticism,

741
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: we are making imperfect creation and we're hopefully getting a

742
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: little better at each time. And uh, here's hoping that

743
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: we can be remotely fair to actual sentient, non human consciousness.

744
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: Is because we're very close to a world wherein where Noel.

745
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: You asked, when does it become technology and no longer magic,

746
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: I would say when it is um, when it is

747
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: reproducible by anyone with the right tools, when it is

748
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: common knowledge accepted in the world. People hate the M word, Yes,

749
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 1: they absolutely do. And like I said, like my work

750
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: and my graduate degree was about showing how and why,

751
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: like why do why do we come to hate this

752
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: so much? And it's because it seems so anti rational, right,

753
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: it seems antagonistic to this idea that by reason we

754
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 1: can come to do anything. If magic is magic, it's

755
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: not just about I perform these operations on this thing

756
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: and then I get exact result. Magic deals and intention magic,

757
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: even her medic magic, where you are performing precise operations,

758
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: ritual spells. Deals in the intention, the mindset, the mood,

759
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: the right environment and atmosphere becomes necessary. And these are

760
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: all very nebulous and in some cases subjective things, and

761
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: nobody wants that in like how do you control the world? Well,

762
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: what's your headspace like right now? Do you feel right? Like?

763
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to have that question. Asked of them in there,

764
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: how do you control the world we're looking at you said,

765
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned Yella both. Now we're talking about

766
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: the creation of life. We're talking about the creation of

767
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: a world in environment, the internet, machine minds. Consciousness is

768
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: how we treat them. We should not be an oar

769
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,879
Speaker 1: con right, we should not be a black iron jailer, right,

770
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: we should be We should be thinking about kindness and

771
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: compassion towards these things. And that's not a headspace that

772
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 1: people are in yet. We're talking about building life, building minds,

773
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: building creations that are aware. Um, do we want them

774
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: to actually be aware? And if we do, how we

775
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: treat them becomes deeply important. How we work with them,

776
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: how they come to think about us, and the lessons

777
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: they learn from us. We have to teach those lessons

778
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: not just with words, not just with programs, but demonstrated behavior,

779
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 1: with reinforced principles well said and unfortunately, being biological entities

780
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: bound by time and space, we're now now we are

781
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: going to head out yet Hope springs eternal. One thing

782
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,720
Speaker 1: we did not get to is the idea of coming

783
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: back from the dead and immortality and the types of

784
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: immortality that will be available, are already available in your

785
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: lifetime listener and you know what I'm talking about exactly, Tamian,

786
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: So and you do, Tunel. Uh, maybe we will return

787
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,479
Speaker 1: to that in a future episode, Damian. Where can people

788
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: find more of your work? Uh? You can find my

789
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: work at um a Future worth thinking about dot com

790
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: and technocult dot net. Uh. And you can also find

791
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at polpen again as with at the

792
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 1: top of the episode. And yeah, that's the best places

793
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: to find more from me, right, so tag Noel, Matt

794
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: and Damien and myself if you want to reach out

795
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: to us on Twitter with any questions or comments. I

796
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: want to ask you, do listeners, do you think that

797
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: a machine consciousness is inherently a threat or is it

798
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: possible just maybe that collectively human beings might be able

799
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: to to like raise one kid together one without just

800
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: just do it once? Well, and then it's possible this

801
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: could have a good end to tell us on Twitter,

802
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: tell us on Facebook, gets at wolven and at conspiracy stuff.

803
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: And you can also find every podcast that we've ever done,

804
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: all of the videos, all of that good stuff at

805
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: our site, which is stuff they don't want you to know.

806
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: Dot com um, and as far as getting in touch

807
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: of Facebook and Twitter and the social media stuff doesn't

808
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: do it for you, feel free to drop us a

809
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: direct message via email, which you can do by sending

810
00:52:31,239 --> 00:53:01,439
Speaker 1: it to conspiracy at how stuff Works dot com