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Speaker 2: to hoops tonight. You're at the volume. Happy Monday, everybody.
Speaker 2: If all of you guys had an incredible weekend, well
Speaker 2: we last week finished our top twenty five players in
Speaker 2: the NBA rankings list, like we do every single year,
Speaker 2: all new criteria, still the same amount of upset people,
Speaker 2: and I thought it'd be fun to try to pash
Speaker 2: it all out with Logan and Carson, the guys from Nerd,
Speaker 2: SESSH guys the area of the list where I faced
Speaker 2: the most debate. There's obviously a good amount of debate
Speaker 2: around the tail end of the list, Like I didn't
Speaker 2: even have Paul Georgie in my top twenty five this year.
Speaker 2: There's just so many good players, Like I actually had
Speaker 2: a preliminary list that was like forty six forty seven
Speaker 2: players long that I all thought had like at least
Speaker 2: reasonable cases to be considered top twenty five players in
Speaker 2: the league, but not too much debate. There a little
Speaker 2: bit of stuff like, oh, where do you put Jaw
Speaker 2: that's kind of weird. Where do you put Victor wembin
Speaker 2: Yama because he's got all this potential, Like how do
Speaker 2: you factor all this kind of stuff in? But to me,
Speaker 2: that stuff pales in comparison in terms of interest to
Speaker 2: the top part of the list. And so for me,
Speaker 2: the eleven guys that I picked for my Superstar Tier
Speaker 2: my main thought process here is basically, these are guys
Speaker 2: that if they're the best player on your team, you
Speaker 2: have a solid chance to build a championship team around them. So,
Speaker 2: for instance, the guys immediately behind them for me, guys
Speaker 2: like Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, even at this point in
Speaker 2: his career, there's such a big injury factor that there's
Speaker 2: just such a big kind of like there's a blind
Speaker 2: spot in terms of whether or not you're actually going
Speaker 2: to get that type of production out of them. So
Speaker 2: this is to me where the cutoff is at eleven guys,
Speaker 2: And the eleven guys in the particular order I put
Speaker 2: him in were Jokic, Luca, Jannis Sga, Anthony Edwards, Anthony Davis,
Speaker 2: Jason Tatum, Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, and Joel Embiid.
Speaker 2: So what I want to start before we actually kind
Speaker 2: of work through this list, is there anybody that you
Speaker 2: guys had that you think deserves to be included in
Speaker 2: this tier that I left out with you, Carson.
Speaker 3: No, I think that you have the right group here.
Speaker 3: But the one dude who I do want to mention,
Speaker 3: and you already explained why he can't be here. It's
Speaker 3: because he is never healthy. Unfortunately, when it matters most
Speaker 3: never available for the playoffs is Kawhi. I still think
Speaker 3: he's a top seven player when he is healthy. When
Speaker 3: he is on the court, just completely dominant, brutally efficient
Speaker 3: score gets where he wants physically in the playoffs, ridiculous
Speaker 3: pull up shooter. Still a really high impact defender. But
Speaker 3: when you're talking about four straight seasons that he hasn't finished,
Speaker 3: like even at the point where you can put him
Speaker 3: on the court, and he's not one hundred percent, like
Speaker 3: he can't be out there at all, I just don't
Speaker 3: think when you're talking about intrusting a full year of
Speaker 3: your franchise that you can have him as a top
Speaker 3: ten guy.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, Yeah, I tend to agree, and if we had
Speaker 1: healthy Kawhi, I think he'd crack my top ten. I
Speaker 1: want you guys to let me know if I'm off
Speaker 1: my rocker a little bit. I know I'm an excitable
Speaker 1: young fellow, but I really wonder if Victor win Boniamoa
Speaker 1: should already make this list. The reason I say this
Speaker 1: now before you you know, before I'm struck down here
Speaker 1: by my fellow basketball geniuses, he's in one of the
Speaker 1: worst basketball situations in the NBA, Like, his roster is
Speaker 1: just not up to par, and I do think that
Speaker 1: Wemby is a step down from like being the number
Speaker 1: one de facto option in comparison to all the other
Speaker 1: guys that we've mentioned. He's not perfect, He's in no
Speaker 1: means a finished product right now. But in this hypothetical
Speaker 1: scenario that we're doing, you know, it's a league wide redraft.
Speaker 1: The league is restarting, and so the way I see it,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of guys I think that have different
Speaker 1: and better arguments considering the fact that they're going to
Speaker 1: have different rosters around them, and I think Wemby would
Speaker 1: be the beneficiary, a really big beneficiary of having just
Speaker 1: a more competitive roster where the league is more balanced
Speaker 1: in the way that we're doing this thought exercise, So
Speaker 1: just with his defensive tools, how great of a defensive
Speaker 1: playmaker he already is, how much better he could potentially
Speaker 1: get next season? Do you guys think it's crazy that
Speaker 1: I'm considering him for this list that I think he
Speaker 1: has a legit case to be in the top ten here.
Speaker 2: He certainly has a case I mean, the hard part
Speaker 2: is is like it's mostly theoretical at this point in
Speaker 2: terms of actually seeing him play. Like there's something so
Speaker 2: unique about the NBA playoffs in terms of like going
Speaker 2: from matchup to matchup, like, like, to me, Anthony Edwards
Speaker 2: is such a great example of this, where Anthony Edwards
Speaker 2: like put up a monster statistical postseason, and even over
Speaker 2: the final half of the postseason, like the second half
Speaker 2: of the Denver series through the tail end of the
Speaker 2: Dallas series, like he still was putting up crazy statistical
Speaker 2: performance relative to most of his peers around the league,
Speaker 2: and most people think he sucked like that. That's how
Speaker 2: crazy the NBA playoffs are. It's so physical, it's so intense,
Speaker 2: the game planning is so good that like it's just
Speaker 2: really really hard to play well in that setting. And
Speaker 2: when I think about Victor, I just think it's if
Speaker 2: someone told me, like we're gonna all just hands down
Speaker 2: agree he's top five in the league at the end
Speaker 2: of the season. Of course I believe you, but it's
Speaker 2: just so risky and so theoretical. He was just a
Speaker 2: really tough player for me to rank in general, And
Speaker 2: for instance, the reason why I put Bam over him,
Speaker 2: is I still think like for a playoff series or
Speaker 2: a playoff run this year, BAM's just experience and his
Speaker 2: ability to play in physicality and like what he can
Speaker 2: do playing with others is a five out big I
Speaker 2: just kind of view him as to say, for bet,
Speaker 2: the Kuhi bit is super interesting because like he's twenty
Speaker 2: eight eight and five on sixty three percent tru shooting
Speaker 2: as a playoff player with the Clippers. That's an absurd efficient,
Speaker 2: amazing production. It's just to Carson's point, like, in addition
Speaker 2: to not being able to finish a playoff series in
Speaker 2: the last four years, there has even been examples, particularly
Speaker 2: last year when they lost to Phoenix, I should say
Speaker 2: the year before this past year when they lost to Phoenix,
Speaker 2: and then the year that they made it to the
Speaker 2: conference finals. In both of those cases, they got to
Speaker 2: April with healthy Kawhi, like did our job got him there?
Speaker 2: And he looked fucking awesome to start the playoffs, and
Speaker 2: in both of those cases he inevitably broke down, and
Speaker 2: so there just wasn't really a case there. The only
Speaker 2: other guy there was two other guys that I saw
Speaker 2: get mentioned as potential dudes. To be included in this list.
Speaker 2: A lot of guys brought up Jalen Brunson and a
Speaker 2: lot of guys brought up Devin Booker, And again, I
Speaker 2: think both of those guys are awesome, and I do
Speaker 2: think they could be the best player on a championship
Speaker 2: team if they are surrounded by overwhelming talent, like I think,
Speaker 2: if you plug those dudes on the Boston Celtics, I
Speaker 2: think they're still championship legitimate, top tier championship contenders. But
Speaker 2: I just think in terms of the physical imposition on
Speaker 2: the game and their half court shot creation ability, they're
Speaker 2: still just on a tier below the guys that are
Speaker 2: in that top tier. So it sounds like, for the
Speaker 2: most part, we agree. Let's move on to the actual list.
Speaker 2: Can we all agree Jokic's one? Does anybody even want
Speaker 2: to try to argue otherwise? Logan, you got it in you,
Speaker 2: you got an adversarial take, No.
Speaker 1: Sir, I'm not gonna be fighting that uphill battle today.
Speaker 2: The reasoning for me was pretty simple, Like I think that,
Speaker 2: and remember, for the people that weren't paying attention during
Speaker 2: the actual list, the criteria was very simple. If we
Speaker 2: had to start a season this fall, meaning literally a
Speaker 2: month from now, and I've got a draft player to
Speaker 2: carry me all the way through to June, and I'm
Speaker 2: building from scratch around them. Who gives me the best chance?
Speaker 2: And the Jokic case to me is, first of all,
Speaker 2: I think he's the only other guy I even considered
Speaker 2: for the spot is Luca. I think that those two
Speaker 2: are clearly a level above the third best guy. But
Speaker 2: in terms of Luca, I think it's harder to craft
Speaker 2: defensive role for him than it is for joks. Jokic
Speaker 2: just has a typical high drop coverage big or low
Speaker 2: drop coverage big. His ability to defensive rebound, He's gotten
Speaker 2: so active with his hands, He's a good defensive communicator.
Speaker 2: Did not have a good defensive playoff run by his standards,
Speaker 2: but Luca's was somehow way worse. So like I find
Speaker 2: it a little bit easier to build around him. And
Speaker 2: then the two things for me with Jokic that were
Speaker 2: differentiators were one, I think I can run more styles
Speaker 2: of offense with him. I think his ability to just
Speaker 2: kind of flow from side to side as a five
Speaker 2: out big I can plug so many different types of
Speaker 2: other ball handlers around him. The ability to put a
Speaker 2: forward next to him that can't shoot is a huge
Speaker 2: Like I was thinking about this the other day, like
Speaker 2: could you even imagine plugging Aaron Gordon in on the
Speaker 2: MAVs and how clunky that would be with their four
Speaker 2: out spacing and having Lively and Gafford rolling to the
Speaker 2: rim with the guy that you just don't have to
Speaker 2: guard in the corner, and the issues that that that
Speaker 2: that that could present, Like they just they like that
Speaker 2: that is a unique trait that Jokics brings to the table.
Speaker 2: I just think I think in general that I just
Speaker 2: have a much more straightforward but at the same time
Speaker 2: diverse path to success with Jokic as my folkrim.
Speaker 3: Do you, I completely agree. I think that there's a
Speaker 3: gap between him and Luca offensively, and I understand that
Speaker 3: people get excited when Luca has these monstrous box score performances,
Speaker 3: and there's something about a player doing it from the
Speaker 3: perimeter with that sort of isolation shot making that I
Speaker 3: think people just tend to prefer as like a viewer,
Speaker 3: people tend to think it's more exciting, and so then
Speaker 3: people always want to put Luca in that best player
Speaker 3: in the world thrown. I still think there's a gap.
Speaker 3: I think that with Jokic you are getting consistently a
Speaker 3: shot quality that we've arguably never seen in the history
Speaker 3: of the sport. Right he gets himself a sixty five
Speaker 3: percent shot at will because that is what he shoots
Speaker 3: on paint touch shots. He's too big, he's too skilled,
Speaker 3: his footwork is too good, his fakes are too effective
Speaker 3: for anybody to actually stop him in single coverage out
Speaker 3: of the post. And then he's also the best passer alive.
Speaker 3: And I think you hit on a key point with
Speaker 3: the multifacet impact in with the stylistic versatility, like Luca
Speaker 3: has stretches where he is relying heavily on the pull
Speaker 3: up jumper, the step back threes, and he is really
Speaker 3: inefficient and he's actually taking your offense out of rhythm.
Speaker 3: And of course that is way way outweighed by the
Speaker 3: good in totality. But with Jokic, there is such a
Speaker 3: floor and he's always going to be extremely impactful as
Speaker 3: a screener, as an offensive rebounder. He's gonna make quicker decisions,
Speaker 3: have quicker, more efficient touches, and I do think he's
Speaker 3: a higher impact defensive player as you say Luca was
Speaker 3: really catastrophically bad in the finals, and I don't think
Speaker 3: that he is that bad of a defender. I didn't
Speaker 3: think he was that bad of a defender in the
Speaker 3: regular season. And there are some people who will say, well,
Speaker 3: it's harder to build a good defense around a mediocre
Speaker 3: defensive center, which you would say Jokich is a pretty
Speaker 3: average defensive center than it is even a bad perimeter
Speaker 3: defender like Luca. And while I can kind of understand
Speaker 3: that perspective because center is the most important position, I
Speaker 3: don't think it's true. If you look at the twenty
Speaker 3: twenty three Nuggets and the level that they defended at
Speaker 3: and Jokic was legitimately defending at I would say a
Speaker 3: slightly above average level in that run because of his hands,
Speaker 3: as I c his elite, elite.
Speaker 2: Recas and the Aaron Gordon Park. Yeah, the Aaron Gordon
Speaker 2: part is the interesting part because, like again, he is
Speaker 2: one of the best defensive forwards in the league, and
Speaker 2: you can't play him alongside a certain type like that
Speaker 2: was a role for him that never worked until he
Speaker 2: went to Denver.
Speaker 3: And you'll get you such an effective off ball player too,
Speaker 3: Right when we go back to the offensive side, Like
Speaker 3: this is a big who curls around screens and can
Speaker 3: hit the mid range jumpers. He runs inverted pick and roll.
Speaker 3: It's just such a remarkably versatile skill set. The efficiency,
Speaker 3: I think that he's clearly number one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the the the they're relying on, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: pitch it right back to you logan here in just
Speaker 2: a second. The the relying on the step back jump
Speaker 2: shot piece is super fascinating to me too, because like again,
Speaker 2: he shot thirty eight percent on step back threes during
Speaker 2: the regular season, which is a great number. And so
Speaker 2: in the large sample, there's a points per possession element
Speaker 2: with Luca that you get that's super advantageous. And that's
Speaker 2: the thing, Like he's like basically any half court static action,
Speaker 2: he's gonna get you one point one points, like he's
Speaker 2: gonna hit like which is awesome. On the massive volume
Speaker 2: that he's doing. He did something crazy, like I want
Speaker 2: to say, over two thousand pick and rolls, ISOs and
Speaker 2: post ups including passes over, which is just an absurd number.
Speaker 2: Like his volume and shot creation just doesn't even resemble
Speaker 2: what you see elsewhere in the league. But for the record,
Speaker 2: there's just that you get to the postseason and those
Speaker 2: further shots away from the basket, the field goal percentage
Speaker 2: starts to dip. Like he shot thirty two percent on
Speaker 2: step back threes in that playoff run. In the NBA Finals, specifically,
Speaker 2: he shot twenty four percent on step back three on
Speaker 2: three point shots in general, So like, again, that's becoming
Speaker 2: an issue in terms of that small sample when we
Speaker 2: get there, he can't make it, which is eerily similar
Speaker 2: to the conversations we used to have about James Harden
Speaker 2: or like he would just have these crazy step back
Speaker 2: jump shooting seasons and then he would get to the
Speaker 2: postseason and they wouldn't go in at the same rate,
Speaker 2: and it would become an issue. And one of the
Speaker 2: stats I saw that I thought was super fascinating. There's
Speaker 2: this stat on Synergy. It's called score percentage. I'm sure
Speaker 2: you've seen it, Carson, but like the one of the
Speaker 2: things that score percent and quantifies as just the sheer
Speaker 2: percentage of your possessions that you end up leading to points, right,
Speaker 2: And specifically, Jokic's scored percentage on a shot creation is
Speaker 2: above all of his peers around the league because of
Speaker 2: the fact that like there's there may not be the
Speaker 2: because he takes somebody hooks and floaters. There may not
Speaker 2: be the same you know, massive sample size efficiency that
Speaker 2: you might get from a guy like Luca because he's
Speaker 2: taking so many threes, but he's just getting these incredibly
Speaker 2: like consistent baskets. There's the poor shooting nights are few
Speaker 2: and far between, and so I think it's it's a
Speaker 2: pretty clear case logan. I have Luca too. I'm assuming
Speaker 2: that we're all in the same page there. Do you
Speaker 2: think that there's any case for Yannis at three to
Speaker 2: be above Lucas I actually.
Speaker 4: Do have Yiannis at number two on my list.
Speaker 1: And the last thing that I want to add real
Speaker 1: quick about the Jokic Luca dynamic that you guys are
Speaker 1: talking about the other feathering cap I put in Jokic's
Speaker 1: cap is that you're talking about the volume that lou
Speaker 1: has during the regular season and how much of a
Speaker 1: burden he does playing like that. I think that's a
Speaker 1: reason that Luca was so banged up last year. It's
Speaker 1: hard sustaining that kind of you know, load on your
Speaker 1: shoulders every single night, and Yokic's playstyle leans himself into
Speaker 1: you know, not taking that kind of beat up.
Speaker 4: Also, just the way he's built. He's strong as an ox.
Speaker 1: The guy's built like a tank, like his play style,
Speaker 1: and I think is the way he plays the game
Speaker 1: just lends himself to being more healthy, more consistently, and
Speaker 1: just better when it comes into those late game scenarios.
Speaker 3: Also, I think if I can add one thing real quick, Logan,
Speaker 3: just because you were mentioning volume. The other thing that
Speaker 3: we've seen in one of my takes that makes people
Speaker 3: more irritated sometimes is that Jokic is the best score
Speaker 3: on the planet, which I do think is a more
Speaker 3: vulnerable title because his jumper was quite cold at the
Speaker 3: end of last year in the playoffs. But when the
Speaker 3: jumper is falling, I think that he is and the
Speaker 3: reason is that he's completely unstoppable out of the post,
Speaker 3: and that is simply the most efficient offense anybody can
Speaker 3: create for themselves. And in the playoffs he rants his
Speaker 3: volume up. He's a thirty point per game playoff scorer
Speaker 3: in the last four years, and he does that with
Speaker 3: better efficiency than anybody else with remotely comparable volumes. So
Speaker 3: I do think Jason, you mentioned the volume that Luca
Speaker 3: has offensively and it's still a little bit greater than Jokic's.
Speaker 3: But Jokic's volume ratchets up as a scorer in the playoffs,
Speaker 3: and we know raw volume generally isn't the best way
Speaker 3: to be a ceiling razor offensively. You probably have to
Speaker 3: decrease your usage a bit to have more off ball value,
Speaker 3: to play a more conducive, free flowing style of offense.
Speaker 3: That's the last thing I wanted to say. Mute my
Speaker 3: mic on all Yoki matters from now on. I'm done
Speaker 3: for the.
Speaker 1: Day, one hundred percent. But I do have you, honest
Speaker 1: at number two on my list, and his injury history
Speaker 1: at this point, guys, is very concerning. We're talking about
Speaker 1: these injury prone players that maybe we omit from this list,
Speaker 1: the Kawhi Leonards of the world. If he's off your list,
Speaker 1: if Embiat is off your list, if you're concerned about
Speaker 1: Kevin Durant getting up in an age honest on tetchakunpo oh,
Speaker 1: Jimmy Butler as well, Jannis is slowly kind of creeping
Speaker 1: into that territory, right He's played in three playoff games
Speaker 1: the past two seasons, and I understand that being a
Speaker 1: component for him being lower on this list for some people.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to the Luca Yannis dynamic, you
Speaker 1: don't have to gimmick up your defense around Jannis, you know,
Speaker 1: you don't have to Like Luka, you don't have to
Speaker 1: just put him on the corner and hope that Luca
Speaker 1: pays attention.
Speaker 4: You know, he's not a traffic cone.
Speaker 1: Giannis is still really impactful on that side of the ball,
Speaker 1: and I just value that two way impact a little
Speaker 1: bit more than Luca's ability as an offensive engine, because
Speaker 1: I think he's brilliant, right. I think he's the second
Speaker 1: best offensive engine in basketball, and he's the second best
Speaker 1: play maker in basketball compared to Jokic, and he's arguably
Speaker 1: the best scorer in basketball. You just talk about that.
Speaker 1: Carson Jokic I think consistently has a higher floor. But
Speaker 1: because of Luca's volume and that three point shot, he's
Speaker 1: a little bit more prone to the scoring explosions. I mean,
Speaker 1: the guy dropped you know what, seventy last year on
Speaker 1: the Hawks. Like, I just don't think Jokic is ever
Speaker 1: going to impose himself the way that Luca does in
Speaker 1: that respect, where he can have those kind of explosions.
Speaker 4: But on Giannis versus Luca.
Speaker 1: I know Yiannis is flawed, still is an offensive basketball player,
Speaker 1: but he's grown as a playmaker. Legitimately, he is still
Speaker 1: unstoppable in certain matchups. Jason, you're talking about the dynamic
Speaker 1: of matchups in the playoffs at the start of the episode.
Speaker 1: You have to have a Yannis stopper on your team,
Speaker 1: and there are just some teams that don't have that guy.
Speaker 1: And so I know that Gianni's flawed, is an offensive player,
Speaker 1: He's never going to be that kind of perimeter initiator.
Speaker 1: You probably never want to go to him in late
Speaker 1: game moments, right. He needs that high level guard that
Speaker 1: can compliment him in crunch time. But I think he's
Speaker 1: more impactful on the two way side, and I think
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways he's gotten a little bit more.
Speaker 1: He's gotten a little underrated after these two seasons. But
Speaker 1: I understand with his flaws and with his injury history,
Speaker 1: if you're cooling a little bit on Giannis at this
Speaker 1: point in his career.
Speaker 2: It's been interesting how these three guys have kind of
Speaker 2: like jockeyed around for me, but then still kind of
Speaker 2: landed in the same place. And what I mean by
Speaker 2: that it's been weird seasons, like, as Carson pointed out,
Speaker 2: like Jokic. Jokic to me last year was head and
Speaker 2: shoulders above the rest of the league. Like I didn't
Speaker 2: think it was particularly close. I do think it's close now.
Speaker 2: I think that Jokic's decline as a jump shooter was
Speaker 2: a real problem in last year's postseason. I mean, especially
Speaker 2: in that Minnesota series, like he kept popping open to
Speaker 2: the top of the key and he just literally couldn't
Speaker 2: make a shot. Think about how big of a deal
Speaker 2: in the twenty twenty three playoff run it was that
Speaker 2: he could just drive closeouts, Like how often he'd be
Speaker 2: like beating Bam or beating Ad with just a pump
Speaker 2: fake from the top of the key because the dude
Speaker 2: was shooting forty five percent from three. And yet at
Speaker 2: the same time, after all of that, after he declined
Speaker 2: as a jump shooter, after he had a worse defensive
Speaker 2: postseason than he's had in a few years, still had
Speaker 2: him at number one. And then it's like Luca kind
Speaker 2: of like in a weird way, And I feel bad
Speaker 2: saying this because, like I mean, he made it to
Speaker 2: the finals. He had easily the biggest moment of the
Speaker 2: postseason with that game winner over Rudy Gobert. In general
Speaker 2: at a bunch of big moments over the court. He
Speaker 2: had a bunch of big moments over the course of
Speaker 2: that postseason run. But it's like all I can see
Speaker 2: is like there's a couple things that stuck in my head,
Speaker 2: Like he consistently kind of struggled at the end of games.
Speaker 2: That go Bear shot was a big shot, but he
Speaker 2: shot poorly in clutch time. In that entire postseason run.
Speaker 2: He tailed off at the end of games. He looked
Speaker 2: like he was getting tired. He looked like he was
Speaker 2: struggling to get separation. The Celtics series, We've talked a
Speaker 2: lot about the defensive end of the ball, but like
Speaker 2: his jump shot fell apart at the tail end of
Speaker 2: that series when they went to Dallas, he couldn't make
Speaker 2: a jump shot, and it like from three point land
Speaker 2: in particular, it was like really really struggling. And then Jannis,
Speaker 2: it's like that I actually thought he deserved more consideration
Speaker 2: for MVP last year, and then he goes and misses
Speaker 2: the postseason again, and he's played two and a half
Speaker 2: postseason games in the last twenty seven months, and so
Speaker 2: it's weird because all three of them kind of have
Speaker 2: these different you know, kind of like down marks for
Speaker 2: different reasons, but I kind of have them all landing
Speaker 2: in that same kind of hierarchy that I had. The
Speaker 2: conversation is simple. Luca's benefit to me, he's very similar
Speaker 2: to Yokic in the sense that he's very physically imposing,
Speaker 2: very difficult to match up with, Like him just ripping
Speaker 2: through Jada McDaniel's like tissue paper is actually crazy. It
Speaker 2: reminds me of the previous year when Jokic ripped through
Speaker 2: ad and then like rip through those guys like like,
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense what Luca does to extremely gifted
Speaker 2: perimeter defenders because of his size advantages. It's just simply
Speaker 2: because he's not quite as as amenable to playing with
Speaker 2: others and because he's just not quite as consistent on
Speaker 2: a possession by possession basis with the variability, I have
Speaker 2: to put him a level behind. But that said, like,
Speaker 2: to me, the gap between what I can do with
Speaker 2: Luca on offense and then cover for him on defense
Speaker 2: versus if I was building from scratch with Giannis, especially
Speaker 2: within the context of this type of format, it's just
Speaker 2: a little bit too wide of a gap for me.
Speaker 2: Like if I draft Luca from there, I theoretically could
Speaker 2: just take extremely high level role players the rest of
Speaker 2: the way and have a good chance to win. If
Speaker 2: I take Yannis, I gotta find a high level ball handler,
Speaker 2: like a really high level ball handler. And theoretically, in
Speaker 2: a snake draft, like if I drafted third and I
Speaker 2: took Giannis, I might not get the player until player
Speaker 2: of what fifty six fifty seven, right, So, like I have,
Speaker 2: there are some limitations in terms of building around Yannis
Speaker 2: from the standpoint of like he's this absolute wrecking ball
Speaker 2: of production. I do think he's one of the top
Speaker 2: tier defensive players in the league in a high leverage
Speaker 2: situation like a postseason series. His ability to be in
Speaker 2: two places at once on defense is like cheating. It's
Speaker 2: like crazy. He is such a valuable weapon, but there's
Speaker 2: just like we're he's gonna turn thirty this year and
Speaker 2: he still doesn't have a left shoulder hook, Like, he
Speaker 2: doesn't have a shot that he can go to over
Speaker 2: a defender that goes in more than forty forty two
Speaker 2: percent of the time, and and that's an issue, Carson,
Speaker 2: did you have Luca over yon Us.
Speaker 3: I'm going to be in a category of my own here.
Speaker 3: I do have Luca number two on this list with
Speaker 3: your criteria, Jason, But if we were doing the ranking
Speaker 3: of these players in a vacuum, then I would have
Speaker 3: Yiannis number two. I do think that Jannie is slightly
Speaker 3: starts from game if health were guaranteed. That's honestly the
Speaker 3: thing that makes me give Luca the edge here. And
Speaker 3: it's not that Jannis is consistently hurt, even it's just
Speaker 3: enough of a concern. Luca is very available, and even
Speaker 3: though he was dealing with some nagging injuries in this
Speaker 3: playoff run, he was still out there. He was able
Speaker 3: to play, whereas Jannis we're talking about again two and
Speaker 3: a half playoff game in the last two seasons. I
Speaker 3: do think that they're very close. The reason that I
Speaker 3: give Jannis the edge is I think Luca is just
Speaker 3: flawed enough as an offensive engine, even though he is great.
Speaker 3: I think he's one of the top fifteen, maybe about
Speaker 3: the tenth best offensive players that we've ever seen, But
Speaker 3: compared to Jokic, there is a gap in terms of
Speaker 3: how conducive the play style is to scaling with other
Speaker 3: really good players. Again, when it comes to ceiling raising
Speaker 3: off ball, Luca has improved a bit, but there's still
Speaker 3: lots of room for improvement there, and there is a
Speaker 3: volatility that doesn't exist with a Jokic. And I'm only
Speaker 3: saying that. I know that I said I wouldn't mention
Speaker 3: Yokic again, so I cheated. But the point is the
Speaker 3: difference between the two of them, because they are the
Speaker 3: two best offensive engines in basketball. But why I do
Speaker 3: view Jokic in a bit of his own tier, and
Speaker 3: I think that Jannis in a vacuum is actually slightly
Speaker 3: better than Luca. Luca had bad series in these playoffs.
Speaker 3: He was pretty bad against the Clippers. He was bad
Speaker 3: in the finals, and especially with this older version of Luca,
Speaker 3: who in a lot of ways I think is the
Speaker 3: best that he's been because he has grown as a
Speaker 3: pull up shooter, but also who simply doesn't get to
Speaker 3: the rim at nearly the same rate that he did
Speaker 3: when he was younger, Like he is just more prone
Speaker 3: to all Right, I'm shooting twenty percent from three in
Speaker 3: this series, and I'm gonna take ten pull up step
Speaker 3: back threes in a game, and like that can be
Speaker 3: a tough watch. Again, that is not good for team offense,
Speaker 3: and he doesn't have the same pats out of it.
Speaker 3: Of all, Right, well, I'm just gonna be super effective
Speaker 3: as a screener. I'm gonna get a quick touch at
Speaker 3: the elbow and spot a cutter, all these things that
Speaker 3: like a Jokic could do. Again, I cheated there, But
Speaker 3: I also think that Giannis is a little underrated right now.
Speaker 3: And Jason, what you say about having to pair him
Speaker 3: with a high level ballhandler if you want to win
Speaker 3: the title, Well, I think yes, that's absolutely ideal because
Speaker 3: of his limitations as a half court shot creator in
Speaker 3: crunch time, which is something that I've been critical of
Speaker 3: for his entire career. It's the reason that, honestly, I
Speaker 3: was skeptical when people in wanted to proclaim Giannis as
Speaker 3: the best player in the league. Yes, that's ideal, but
Speaker 3: also like look at twenty twenty one. He didn't have
Speaker 3: that Middleton played well on that run. Drew Holliday was
Speaker 3: wildly inconsistent. Middleton, although he did play well, was still inconsistent.
Speaker 3: Yiannis was just such an overwhelming force, and he was
Speaker 3: so dominant defensively as well, where I do think he's
Speaker 3: taken a bit of a step back now with a
Speaker 3: few more years of tread on his tires, that he
Speaker 3: was able to will you there. And when you talk
Speaker 3: about the great regular season forces that we've seen as well,
Speaker 3: like when it does come down to just carrying the
Speaker 3: group around you to fifty five sixty wins, like nobody
Speaker 3: has been better at that than Jannis over the last
Speaker 3: seven years. I mean, that's what he's done for the
Speaker 3: Bucks year in year out. So I think that we
Speaker 3: tend to hyper fixate on his one flaw, which is
Speaker 3: that he is not a skilled shot maker, that he
Speaker 3: is not a skilled half court creator, and I want
Speaker 3: to be clear that is a meaningful flaw. I don't
Speaker 3: want to dismiss that. At the same time, we've seen
Speaker 3: him dominate in spite of that in twenty twenty one
Speaker 3: in the playoffs, in twenty twenty two in the playoffs
Speaker 3: without Middleton on the floor, when he was incredible, and
Speaker 3: the last time he was there was ugly because even
Speaker 3: though he dropped thirty eight and twenty on the heat
Speaker 3: in that final game, which I think we can sort
Speaker 3: of gloss over, he was playing a dominant basketball game.
Speaker 3: Then he melted down in the clutch. He couldn't make
Speaker 3: free throws, he couldn't overpower Bam physically, and it was
Speaker 3: a really, really ugly way to go out. I do
Speaker 3: think Bam is like the worst matchup in the league
Speaker 3: for him because he moves so well, because he's so strong,
Speaker 3: Like you can use the term Yannis stopper, but like
Speaker 3: Bam is is the one most problematic matchup for him
Speaker 3: in basketball. I still think at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: you're getting a guy who walks into thirty twelve six
Speaker 3: and a half on sixty five percent through shooting, has
Speaker 3: improved as a playmaker, and is a top twenty defender
Speaker 3: in basketball. It's very, very very few teams have an
Speaker 3: answer for and because he does have such overwhelming physical
Speaker 3: imposition and the playmaking is so good now and the
Speaker 3: defense is so good now, I think the baseline there
Speaker 3: is higher than Luca. So, although it feels like I'm
Speaker 3: making a Yanni's case, I do have Luca number two,
Speaker 3: but it's really because of health.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the hell thing has been really bizarre at the
Speaker 2: last few years because like that was literally his calling
Speaker 2: card is like, oh, he damn near inverted his knee
Speaker 2: in the conference finals, and here he is playing and
Speaker 2: dropping fifty right, Like that was kind of the thing
Speaker 2: I don't want to try to because that's the case
Speaker 2: that a lot of people made in the comments out
Speaker 2: when we were doing the Yannis case, was like, what
Speaker 2: about twenty twenty one, And I don't want to undercut
Speaker 2: that because a couple of things. First of all, like
Speaker 2: Chris and Drew, there's more to that identity of that
Speaker 2: team in the sense that like that was very much
Speaker 2: a defensive minded team that mucked things up, and it
Speaker 2: was kind of like, as long as one of Drew
Speaker 2: or Chris has it going tonight, we have a really
Speaker 2: good chance of winning this particular game. But then there's
Speaker 2: also this part and I hate doing this because I
Speaker 2: hate trying to undercut champions, and they are bonavide NBA champions.
Speaker 2: That title. There's no asterisk in my book there. Giannis
Speaker 2: is a legitimate finals MVP. All that stuff that said,
Speaker 2: I thought that was the weakest champion in the last
Speaker 2: five six years. I think that that twenty twenty one
Speaker 2: Bucks team was that, Like it's so funny how there's
Speaker 2: a focus on the bubble as being the weird season.
Speaker 2: But the truth is is like everybody played normal basketball
Speaker 2: till March, and then when they went to the bubble,
Speaker 2: there were zero positive tests, So like everyone that was
Speaker 2: there played like it was like a static basketball environment.
Speaker 2: The twenty twenty one season was weird. It was short.
Speaker 2: We had like remember all those like would be like, oh,
Speaker 2: half the bulls are sick, they're all out this week,
Speaker 2: and it's like we've got this weird roster of a
Speaker 2: bunch of journeymen playing today. Like that was a weird season,
Speaker 2: and like all the teams that made it to the
Speaker 2: conference finals in the previous year all got hurt if
Speaker 2: you remember correctly, Like it was just kind of a
Speaker 2: weird year. So like I'm not trying to undercut that
Speaker 2: or I'm just saying like they haven't been able to
Speaker 2: replicate that since. And like last year it was like, oh,
Speaker 2: let's bring in a high level ball handler in terms
Speaker 2: of Dame instead of Drew, and then they promptly ended
Speaker 2: up having a whole bunch of other issues that were
Speaker 2: opened up by virtue of the fact that Drew was gone.
Speaker 2: And so the point is is, like I do think
Speaker 2: it's just a little bit tougher to build around Yiannis.
Speaker 2: You guys, I'll make good cases. I know we could
Speaker 2: talk about this forever, but I'm gonna move on just
Speaker 2: for the sake of keeping the show moving right now.
Speaker 2: I have Carson at Jokis, Luka Yannis, and I have
Speaker 2: Logan at Jokis, Jiannis Luca. Do you both have SGA
Speaker 2: at four? Let's start with you, love.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do have SGA at four, and I would
Speaker 1: hear an argument if people wanted to above Luca.
Speaker 4: I think that he does have more two way value.
Speaker 1: I think SGA is a damn good defender, but I
Speaker 1: just trust Luca Moore as an offensive engine.
Speaker 4: I think SGA brings less playmaking value.
Speaker 1: But when we're talking about like scaling to the playoff stage,
Speaker 1: that was a big criticism of SGA's this regular season
Speaker 1: shade detractors, and I don't know why there's that befuddles me.
Speaker 1: Why there are groups of people who just hate on
Speaker 1: certain basketball players while they actively hope to see their downfall.
Speaker 4: That's strange to me.
Speaker 2: It's the foul grifting. I think. I think the foul
Speaker 2: grifting is like objectively unlikable, and when they see guys
Speaker 2: do the light throwing their body and throwing their arms up.
Speaker 2: I think people just automatically get I also think.
Speaker 1: She's just really good at using his body though, like
Speaker 1: the way he initiates contact and uses that elbow, the
Speaker 1: change in pace. I think Sga has one of the
Speaker 1: most like elegant, beautiful games in basketball. He's one of
Speaker 1: my favorite players to watch, just he's unstoppable. He has
Speaker 1: so many counters to everything that the defense throws at him.
Speaker 1: His change of pace is elape the way he explodes
Speaker 1: to the bucket. He's one of the best finishers around
Speaker 1: the rim. Like when we're just talking about inside the
Speaker 1: arc scorers manufacturing shots everywhere on the floor from inside
Speaker 1: the arc, SGA's up there for you might be the best.
Speaker 1: Jokic is definitely up there. Luca's in that conversation. But SDA,
Speaker 1: if you have them above, you know, above those guys,
Speaker 1: he's not lagging far behind and so top tier offensive engine,
Speaker 1: great two way value. But I don't think he's as
Speaker 1: prone to having these scoring explosions. Is like Luca, Like
Speaker 1: I think in I worry about him going across the
Speaker 1: finish line, and you know, when you need those big
Speaker 1: time like scoring explosions. SGA's will give you thirty every night.
Speaker 1: He's damn he's damn good for it, thirty six and six.
Speaker 1: But that's one of his flaws. And then, uh, I
Speaker 1: think in comparison to to Jannis, he just couldn't have
Speaker 1: the pronounced defensive impact. But Sga is one of the
Speaker 1: most consistent guys in basketball. And when you're talking about
Speaker 1: that malleability, Jason right in terms of roster construction. In
Speaker 1: this thought exercise, I think Sga is one of the
Speaker 1: most malleable guys. Like Giannis gives you such a high floor,
Speaker 1: such a high baseline, a great guard gives you that
Speaker 1: great ceiling. To me, SGA is one of those great
Speaker 1: guards that gives you that great ceiling. And I think
Speaker 1: you could put a lot of guys around him that
Speaker 1: compliment him. He's gonna take the scoring load every night,
Speaker 1: he's gonna give you thirty, he's gonna play make it
Speaker 1: a pretty high level, and he's gonna play really great defense.
Speaker 1: So I don't think I could have anybody else in
Speaker 1: this number four spot. I don't think I hear an
Speaker 1: argument for anybody else to crack this top four. I
Speaker 1: think they're solidified for me.
Speaker 3: With this criteria. I agree. If we were just talking again,
Speaker 3: presuming health pet to peak, then I would probably have
Speaker 3: game in the fourth one game.
Speaker 4: I'm taking one game. I'm taking Lebron man.
Speaker 3: No, okay, well listen, I respect Lebron to.
Speaker 2: Take Lebron Overriannis for one game. Still, it's close.
Speaker 3: I do think that, Yeah, the one game makes it interesting.
Speaker 3: But if you were talking even about like just a
Speaker 3: playoff run, I mean, there's just a level of physical
Speaker 3: dominance that Jannis can sustain over that run. With SGA,
Speaker 3: there's just a scoring floor that is the highest in basketball.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's ridiculous. This is a guard who scored
Speaker 3: thirty points per game last year and made almost fifty
Speaker 3: four percent of his shots from the field. So I
Speaker 3: think he's a very clear for Really. The only limitation
Speaker 3: is that he's not an elite playmaker at this stage.
Speaker 3: I think he's an above average play but you see
Speaker 3: like there are stretches in the series where he's just
Speaker 3: not processing things quickly enough. I actually thought that in
Speaker 3: the Dallas series he was underrated as a playmaker, and
Speaker 3: I thought that although that offense was a bit stagnant overall,
Speaker 3: he was pretty consistently getting the ball to the second side.
Speaker 3: He was making skip passes, and it was just shooting
Speaker 3: and a lack of ball moving around him that really
Speaker 3: let him down. And in that environment with these congested paints,
Speaker 3: right when you are basically constantly seeing a big and
Speaker 3: helping position because they're just willing to roam off of
Speaker 3: whatever shooter was in the weakside corner, like Shay is
Speaker 3: still scoring with great efficiency in that environment, just because
Speaker 3: as a one on one shot creator, he's the most
Speaker 3: consistent dude that we have in the league isolation pick
Speaker 3: and roll. He's the leading restricted area scorer among all guards,
Speaker 3: and he is the best mid range shot maker at
Speaker 3: the guard spot that we have in basketball. Threatens the drive,
Speaker 3: stops on a dime, as Logan mentions, has ridiculous body
Speaker 3: control numerous counters. He's just incredible. I also think there
Speaker 3: was so much weird SGA discourse to come out of
Speaker 3: the Dallas series. On the defensive side of the ball.
Speaker 3: There were also people who thought that like it was
Speaker 3: his fault that Derek Jones Junior and PJ. Washington were
Speaker 3: knocking down wide open corner threes as if when you
Speaker 3: blitz a pick and roll ball handler, you don't need
Speaker 3: the lowman to slide over and tag the roller, like
Speaker 3: Esgay's doing his job, and he did it reasonably well.
Speaker 3: Like those were the shots the thunder wanted to concede,
Speaker 3: and dudes who are generally not good at those shots
Speaker 3: were good at those shots. So I do think Sga
Speaker 3: is an above average defender. That he's not as good
Speaker 3: as the stocks totals would suggest, but I think he's
Speaker 3: an above average defender who does have some versatility on
Speaker 3: that side. Not the most versatile offensive player in terms
Speaker 3: of like off ball value playing with another real on
Speaker 3: ball star, but I don't care. He's so damn good
Speaker 3: at what he does that I think he's stamped in
Speaker 3: this spot. There's just such consistent offensive brilliance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually like really interested to see how he
Speaker 2: plays over the next few years, as Jalen Williams gets
Speaker 2: better and as Chet Holmgren gets better, Because you're right,
Speaker 2: like he's a bad catch and shoot player at this point.
Speaker 2: He's he's kind of a little bit of a catch
Speaker 2: and hold kind of guy, and so I'll be really
Speaker 2: curious to see how he develops in that regard, Like,
Speaker 2: I think he's closer to Luca than he is to
Speaker 2: Jokic in terms of offensive engines that have like real
Speaker 2: ball in player movement kind of baked into their game,
Speaker 2: which I think leads to like, I think that I
Speaker 2: think that helio centric style and and ball handlers that
Speaker 2: like can't play off the ball, I think they do
Speaker 2: lead to a little bit of a diminishing return there.
Speaker 2: Like just simple example with Luca, Like one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why you can get away with sticking Porzingis or
Speaker 2: Horford on PJ. Washington or Derek Jones Junior and just
Speaker 2: having them camp in the paint and ignore those dudes
Speaker 2: on above the break jump shots. One of the reasons
Speaker 2: they can get away with that is because PJ. Washington
Speaker 2: and Derek Jones Junior aren't involved in action. They aren't
Speaker 2: like they aren't like coming out of a dribble handoff
Speaker 2: in the corner, like because that's the thing that's how
Speaker 2: you'd attack. It's like, Okay, PJ. Washington is not hitting
Speaker 2: above the break threes, so that means that our center
Speaker 2: can park his ass into paint and help everywhere. Right, Well,
Speaker 2: what if you actually made Porzingis or Orford run through
Speaker 2: a few dribble handoffs, Like that's where you could start
Speaker 2: to get some real Not to mention PJ. Washington and
Speaker 2: Derek Jones, Derek Jones Jr. Are athletes, and there are
Speaker 2: athletes that can get downhill and try to make plays.
Speaker 2: But like that's the thing, is, like, that's just not
Speaker 2: the way Dallas plays. It's not the way Dallas plays
Speaker 2: like And so what's so interesting is one simple defensive
Speaker 2: adjustment literally crippled Dallas's offense because Luca only can play
Speaker 2: one way and and and that to me at this
Speaker 2: point in his career, and that to me is and
Speaker 2: for the record, it's not just Luca's fault. Part of
Speaker 2: it is the way Dallas has empowered him. And there
Speaker 2: hasn't been enough focus organizationally on playing a different style.
Speaker 2: And you could tell, I mean even that Mark Cuban
Speaker 2: interview the other day, and it's like, oh, Klay Thompson,
Speaker 2: like he's not gonna have to like run off the
Speaker 2: screens like it did in Golden State. We're gonna spoon
Speaker 2: feed him wide open threes in the corner, which one
Speaker 2: isn't how basketball works, and two that doesn't actually sound
Speaker 2: like something that'll help you the way that you think
Speaker 2: it will. Like it's an organizational philosophy that is very
Speaker 2: much set around We're gonna have Luca create everything and
Speaker 2: spoon feed everybody everything, and there's a diminishing return there.
Speaker 2: I'll be curious to see. I'll be curious to see
Speaker 2: how Shae develops in that regard, because he's gonna have
Speaker 2: no choice because this Thunder roster is so good and
Speaker 2: Jalen Williams is that level of player where he's gonna
Speaker 2: have games where it's like he's the one who has
Speaker 2: it going. That said, I was, I agree with you, Carson.
Speaker 2: I thought it was bizarre how as Jay was covered
Speaker 2: after that playoff run. I thought for his first playoff
Speaker 2: run as the guy with like real expectations, I thought
Speaker 2: he did pretty damn good. He was this close, this
Speaker 2: close to the conference finals, this close. He actually out
Speaker 2: executed Luca down the stretch of that game. He just
Speaker 2: made one defensive mistake. He found PJ. Washington in the corner.
Speaker 2: Shaye was insane at the end of that game. Remember
Speaker 2: that step back three he hit right at the top
Speaker 2: of the key that kind of like took the edge
Speaker 2: off He had that driving dish to check Homegrin for
Speaker 2: the dunk. He had a pull up shooting stretch earlier
Speaker 2: in that game where he got crazy hot and hit
Speaker 2: a bunch of fifteen footers in a row. He was
Speaker 2: this close to sending that game two Game seven in
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City, where Oklahoma Oklahoma City would have been favored.
Speaker 2: I actually thought he played Luca more or less evenly
Speaker 2: in that series. The one thing that is a little
Speaker 2: bit tricky there is I thought Luca had a much
Speaker 2: tougher defensive matchup, Like Lou dort is the best guy
Speaker 2: to guard Luca in the league because he's a fire
Speaker 2: hydrant that Luca can't bully, and Lucas spent half the
Speaker 2: series complaining at the refs and limping around because Lou
Speaker 2: was kind of playing super physical on him and putting
Speaker 2: that level of like hurt and pain on him. But
Speaker 2: like Shay did play extremely well and I am a
Speaker 2: big believer in him in the long run. And like
Speaker 2: the other thing, like oh he missed some reeds. Every
Speaker 2: damn player in the league missus reeds except for Jokis
Speaker 2: Luca Lebron. Like if it's not the top tier passers,
Speaker 2: it's like those guys are up here and then there's
Speaker 2: a chasm and then everyone else. Like it's such a
Speaker 2: natural like transcendent of ability that you can't like teach
Speaker 2: or train. It's like you either have it or you don't.
Speaker 2: That like, yeah, you get better at making reads, and
Speaker 2: Shay will miss fewer reads as he gets older. But
Speaker 2: like like with exception of those top tier playmakers, he's
Speaker 2: never gonna get to that level. Like, Shay's not going
Speaker 2: to be an eleven assist the game, guys, it's just
Speaker 2: not in his in his game. So number five is
Speaker 2: where I started to get into a bunch of arguments
Speaker 2: with people, and the way I see it, everyone below
Speaker 2: this tier, everyone below Shae has like gaping holes that
Speaker 2: that are like harder to deal with. And so in
Speaker 2: my opinion, like I had him beat at eleven and
Speaker 2: Ant at five, you could swap those and defend it.
Speaker 2: Like if you said, guys, I have an at eleven,
Speaker 2: I'd be like, that makes sense to me. I have
Speaker 2: him beat at five. That makes sense to me, even
Speaker 2: though I had the opposite. My case for Ant was
Speaker 2: very simple. Essentially, he's the most available star in the
Speaker 2: league right now. You can book him for seventy nine
Speaker 2: seventy eight. You know he's gonna play damn near every
Speaker 2: game the entire season. I believe that his production from
Speaker 2: the postseason was a legitimate leap, So I expect ant
Speaker 2: to average twenty eight six and six on sixty percent
Speaker 2: trough shooting this year. I think that that's something that
Speaker 2: I would be surprised if he didn't reach. At this point,
Speaker 2: I think the jump shooting is real. I think all
Speaker 2: of that is real. And then as far as this
Speaker 2: postseason production goes, I actually think way too much focus
Speaker 2: was put on Ant struggling, which, by the way, he did,
Speaker 2: but not enough was put on the fact that, like
Speaker 2: that Minnesota roster is really limited offensively, Like the roster
Speaker 2: is really limited offensively. They were limited offensively all year
Speaker 2: because they've got defensive specialists, guys like Rudy Gobert, guys
Speaker 2: like Nikhil Alexander Walker, guys like Kyle Anderson, guys like
Speaker 2: Jaden McDaniels. These are defensive specialists that are playing massive
Speaker 2: minutes for them, and the benefit is they're this big, bully,
Speaker 2: physical team. But they of course you can put two
Speaker 2: on the ball and pick and roll against Ant and
Speaker 2: those guys aren't going to be able to consistently score
Speaker 2: off of it. Now, that's not to say Ant doesn't
Speaker 2: have a lot of room for improvement. Specifically the first
Speaker 2: two games of the Western Conference Finals at that he
Speaker 2: was way too passive in just getting rid of the
Speaker 2: basketball and not looking to attack in different ways like
Speaker 2: in transition or in just straight one on one to
Speaker 2: avoid that second defender. But the reality is is, like
Speaker 2: I think, in terms of regular season production, he's in
Speaker 2: the very top tier of guys that I would expect
Speaker 2: to carry a team for an entire season this year.
Speaker 2: And as far as postseason production goes, you really can't
Speaker 2: do much better than the postseason he just had for
Speaker 2: a guy at twenty two, and I think he learned
Speaker 2: a lot of lessons he's coming off the Team USA experience.
Speaker 2: So each of you, I want you to start by
Speaker 2: telling me why you think you're I'm wrong for picking Ant,
Speaker 2: and then who you would have at number five instead
Speaker 2: will start with you, Carson.
Speaker 3: So I have Ant just a couple spots lower than this,
Speaker 3: and I think he's a really tough player to rank.
Speaker 3: I do think that his greatest strength is availability and
Speaker 3: the fact that he is trending upwards at this very
Speaker 3: moment in a way that really nobody else on this
Speaker 3: list is Like, I do think you can do a
Speaker 3: little bit of projection with and expect a little bit
Speaker 3: of improvement this year, because that's just the natural course
Speaker 3: of a player of his age going into his fifth season.
Speaker 3: And I still think that there is meaningful room for
Speaker 3: improvement with him. I mean, I thought in the first
Speaker 3: series and a half of the playoffs, but before he
Speaker 3: fell against Denver, really I thought that he was outstanding.
Speaker 3: Part of that was that the pull up shooting was
Speaker 3: just ludicrously good early, especially against Phoenix. I mean, he
Speaker 3: was barbecuing them with the mid range game. He was
Speaker 3: barbecuing them with the pull up threes. And I think
Speaker 3: that we do have to acknowledge that, like he's not
Speaker 3: quite that level of pull up shooter like we see
Speaker 3: over his first three postseason appearance is like a ten
Speaker 3: percent leap in effective field goal percentage as a pull
Speaker 3: up shooter, which even if you think like okay, because
Speaker 3: he is such an imposing downhill threat because of his strength,
Speaker 3: right his ability to just bounce off of guys and
Speaker 3: get to those mid range looks like that makes him
Speaker 3: a better postseason shooter. I would agree with that. I
Speaker 3: just don't know that it's that sort of like that's
Speaker 3: where I am still hesitant with the sample size. Even
Speaker 3: though it's a bigger sample size now, it's still just
Speaker 3: twenty seven games, and there can be a lot of
Speaker 3: noise in numbers when you don't have a sample much
Speaker 3: larger than that with something very specific like your pull
Speaker 3: up shooting. But I am really high on it because
Speaker 3: of his strength, because of his athleticism, because he has
Speaker 3: been a good pull up shooter when it matters, because
Speaker 3: he is generally a plus defender. I think he's a
Speaker 3: really really good on ball defender who just has some
Speaker 3: lapses in focus off ball, and he can clean up
Speaker 3: on that. The reason that I couldn't have him all
Speaker 3: the way up at five, though, is what we saw
Speaker 3: in terms of his decision making and playmaking in the
Speaker 3: Dallas series. I'm with you, it's a tough offensive situation, right.
Speaker 3: He doesn't trust Rudy Gobert off the roll, he doesn't
Speaker 3: want to hit him, and there's a lack of consistent
Speaker 3: shot making around him, and he's playing with two bigs
Speaker 3: and he's playing against a really good defense with awesome
Speaker 3: rim protection. All of that is true, all of that
Speaker 3: is fair. At the same time, he was tentative. He
Speaker 3: was not willing to at least pressure the rim at
Speaker 3: the necessary level. Like, even if you're facing a great
Speaker 3: rim protector, right and it's a congested paint, there are
Speaker 3: more good outcomes than bad just for getting to the rim.
Speaker 3: If you're Anthony Edwards, right, you make a kick out pass,
Speaker 3: you find an open teammate, you draw a foul, and yeah,
Speaker 3: maybe you get blocked, maybe you don't finish the lay up.
Speaker 3: But also he's like one of the best contested finishers
Speaker 3: in the paint in basketball. So I want to see
Speaker 3: him lean into his greatest strength more, which is that
Speaker 3: freakish downhill pressure that he can apply. And again, I
Speaker 3: just think when it comes to diagnosing the defense making
Speaker 3: those skip passes, there's room for growth. I thought that
Speaker 3: he was okay, but compared to somebody who I actually
Speaker 3: have higher than him, like a Jason Tatum, I do
Speaker 3: think that Tatum is a more mature playmaker. I do
Speaker 3: think that Tatum brings a more consistently elite impact in
Speaker 3: the non scoring areas of the game, rebounding, defense, it's
Speaker 3: close because Ant is a more reliable number one score
Speaker 3: and if you want to favor that, I mean I
Speaker 3: have been on that very side of the issue arguing
Speaker 3: that for Ant. Like you say, Jason, it's so close
Speaker 3: with a lot of these guys. But I think Tatum's
Speaker 3: just reached the point where, like he's so great at everything,
Speaker 3: but the consistent pull up shooting where he was really
Speaker 3: bad in these playoffs, that when that shot bounces back,
Speaker 3: which is going to to some extent no matter what
Speaker 3: you think, like, that's just a more complete, refined superstar
Speaker 3: impacting winning in every way than the very young aunt
Speaker 3: who we have at this point.
Speaker 4: I really like this take, though, Jason.
Speaker 2: I mean, well hold it, hold up really quick, Logan.
Speaker 2: So Carson, you have Datum at five, Okay, go ahead, Logan, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Have Ant down at number seven. I have two guys
Speaker 1: ahead of him. I heare you, though, because I don't
Speaker 1: think that Minnesota does him many offensive favors because of
Speaker 1: his situation. So when we're talking about doing a redraft
Speaker 1: like this, I actually think that Anthony Edwards is a
Speaker 1: guy who would be better if you put different personnel
Speaker 1: around him, more shooting. Right, We're talking about the upper
Speaker 1: echelon offensive engines, Ant doesn't really have a chance to
Speaker 1: do that because of the personnel around him.
Speaker 4: I do agree with you, Carson.
Speaker 1: I thought Ant had his moments play making and decision
Speaker 1: making in this last run, but it wasn't elite. I
Speaker 1: also think again, that has to do with how much
Speaker 1: he trusts this personnel to do their thing. So I
Speaker 1: think in a different situation where you give him a
Speaker 1: role man that he trusts, he could spoon fit feed
Speaker 1: him easy looks right. I think in a different situation
Speaker 1: he would look a lot better. But I think there
Speaker 1: is volatility with the pull up shooting. I think Ant
Speaker 1: is going inevitably. I think he's going to be in
Speaker 1: this top four one day. I think he's probably going
Speaker 1: to be in the top three one day. I think
Speaker 1: he's going to be an elite pull up jump shooter.
Speaker 1: The reason I have him down at number seven, though,
Speaker 1: is I just don't know if I can trust Ant's
Speaker 1: shoulder the load of an entire side of the basketball
Speaker 1: just yet. Because of those limitations. I think he's a
Speaker 1: good defender and you can build a great defense around him.
Speaker 1: I think he's a good playmaker at this point.
Speaker 4: To me, it's like.
Speaker 1: It's hard with the situation again because the Wolves are
Speaker 1: a great defense and and is their number one offensively.
Speaker 1: But I just trust other guys to impact the game,
Speaker 1: you know, in other different facets more. I do have
Speaker 1: Tatum above him, and I have one more guy above
Speaker 1: him that I just trust more to make me elite
Speaker 1: on one side of the basketball.
Speaker 2: And so did Tatum at five or Tatum at six?
Speaker 1: I have Tatum at six, and then I have Anthony
Speaker 1: Davis at five.
Speaker 2: Anthony Davis at five. That's interesting. I have Anthony Davis
Speaker 2: at six. So we're going to debate him in just
Speaker 2: a minute. Did you have any other thoughts on it
Speaker 2: before we no, sir, okay, So a couple of stats
Speaker 2: really quick for you guys. Jason Tatum's playoff run twenty
Speaker 2: five ten and six on fifty five percent. Ture shooting
Speaker 2: twenty five, ten and six. Anthony Edwards's Western Conference Finals
Speaker 2: the series everyone thought he sucked twenty five to nine
Speaker 2: and eight on fifty four percent.
Speaker 3: Does that feel refrashedically? I mean, think about all of
Speaker 3: the stuff that doesn't show up on the stat sheet,
Speaker 3: think about like all the advantages Tatum created putting the
Speaker 3: defense in rotation, maybe not in assist How did you
Speaker 3: change the entire You don't think I think that that
Speaker 3: was more advantage for Tatum than for ant.
Speaker 2: I think I think that Tatum is a far more impactful,
Speaker 2: far more impactful defensive player. Right now. I think I
Speaker 2: think you were a little bit more high on ants
Speaker 2: on the ball even than I am. I think we're
Speaker 2: not factoring in enough the job here. Like you realize
Speaker 2: what was the advantage that Tatum was creating for the Celtics.
Speaker 2: He was running ball screens, typically with guards, where he
Speaker 2: would draw a second defender and then throw a shovel
Speaker 2: pass over to Derek White standing wide open at the
Speaker 2: top of the key as the defenders closing out at
Speaker 2: his other opposite shoulder, and Derek White would rip through,
Speaker 2: finish the advantage and go from there. Or Tatum would
Speaker 2: get a weaker defender on a swim to someone like
Speaker 2: Jason Tatum, beat him off the dribble, make that first
Speaker 2: driving kick pass. You don't think Anthony Edwards could do that.
Speaker 2: You realize Anthony Edwards was bringing a second defender to
Speaker 2: the screen every single time against Dallas. The problem was
Speaker 2: as a team they couldn't confront it, and again, like
Speaker 2: he was, it is being painted as like a choke
Speaker 2: job of a series. He had thirty nine assists and
Speaker 2: seventeen turnovers in five games against a defense that was
Speaker 2: entirely geared to solving him down. Now, for the record,
Speaker 2: I actually agree that if I had to start a
Speaker 2: playoff series two marrow, I would still give a slight
Speaker 2: edge to Jason Tatum. But as I discussed in my list,
Speaker 2: this is a theoretical situation where my playoff run is
Speaker 2: starting in April. I've got another seven months worth of
Speaker 2: reps that ANT is going to get. I've got another
Speaker 2: I've got a lot more experience that I'm building around
Speaker 2: ANT over that particular time. The point that I was
Speaker 2: trying to make is that like literally, at this point,
Speaker 2: like Jason Tatum in a situation that, like, guys, let
Speaker 2: me just paint it for you very simply, if we
Speaker 2: just took Anthony Edwards and swapped him for Jason Tatum,
Speaker 2: Just think for a minute, what would the offense look
Speaker 2: like in Boston? Like, what would it look like? Do
Speaker 2: you think ANT would struggle to generate shots for that team?
Speaker 4: Be beautiful?
Speaker 2: Can you imagine guys, this was what was crazy. Like
Speaker 2: Anthony Edwards got more shot attempts at the rim than
Speaker 2: any guard under six to six in the entire league
Speaker 2: playing alongside Rudy Gobert in a two center system with
Speaker 2: a bunch of defensive specialists on the floor. Like, that's
Speaker 2: the type of rim pressure that he brings to the table.
Speaker 2: And so a lot of my pick there with ant Is,
Speaker 2: I'm projecting him to have an MVP caliber season. I
Speaker 2: think he's going to be finished in the top three
Speaker 2: or four in MVP voting. I think he's gonna play
Speaker 2: seventy five plus games. I think he's going to be
Speaker 2: one of the best playoff players in the league next year,
Speaker 2: even though there are some limitations there. And I agree
Speaker 2: there are certainly some limitations there. I think ant Is,
Speaker 2: I'm with you, guys. I think he's really scratching the
Speaker 2: surface of his potential. But I think a lot of
Speaker 2: the way we discuss Tatum, like he does have he
Speaker 2: is an incredibly versatile basketball player, I want to be
Speaker 2: clear about that, but like his weakness is top end ability,
Speaker 2: Like he does not have an elite first step. He
Speaker 2: is not an elite shooter. And when you are playing
Speaker 2: in situations where the talent around you is not as
Speaker 2: good as it is elsewhere in the league. That is
Speaker 2: where your top end talent is what allows you to
Speaker 2: transcend the circumstances around you. And like I, let's just
Speaker 2: put it. Let's just let's take this for example, if
Speaker 2: you ask Jason Tatum to run the Minnesota offense this year.
Speaker 2: This year, they were what eighteenth in offensive rating or
Speaker 2: were they seventeenth something like that. They I'm pulling it
Speaker 2: up real quick. They the Minnesota Timberwolves this year were
Speaker 2: seventeenth in offense. If Jason Tatum was the primary offensive
Speaker 2: engine for that team, are they a top ten offense suddenly?
Speaker 3: Absolutely not. The gap is not offensive. I want to
Speaker 3: be clear about that. I do think that Tatum is
Speaker 3: I think he is a slightly better playmaker than and
Speaker 3: I think he's clearly a better playmaker than Ant. I
Speaker 3: also think that Ant is clearly a better scorer. So
Speaker 3: that's the thing. That's the only reason that I advocate
Speaker 3: for Tatum at all, because I think it was a
Speaker 3: brutal postseason for him as a scorer, but I thought
Speaker 3: it was really good in terms of playmaking. The gap,
Speaker 3: to me is defensive, and the gap is if we're
Speaker 3: starting a team from scratch. Jason Tatum is the most
Speaker 3: versatile player in basketball, and that's where I couldn't agree
Speaker 3: with you more. He doesn't have an A plus trait.
Speaker 3: He is B plus at everything, though, and that does
Speaker 3: create a malleability where he can be effectively your point
Speaker 3: guard offensively in the NBA Finals, and he can be
Speaker 3: your center defensively. And I still don't think he gets
Speaker 3: enough credit because everybody looks at Jalen Brown and the
Speaker 3: job that he did on Ball on Luca, which was
Speaker 3: super impressive. But Tatum's ability to be the primary matchup
Speaker 3: for the centers, to hang with them on the glass,
Speaker 3: to not get attacked in terms of post mismatches, and
Speaker 3: then to legitimately switch one through five like that shut
Speaker 3: down so much of the desperation that other defenses had
Speaker 3: to go to right blitzing and creating four on threes
Speaker 3: and getting these easy lobs off the role. Like I
Speaker 3: think Tatum was the most important defensive player in that series,
Speaker 3: and that's just a weapon and an impact he has
Speaker 3: that Aunt doesn't at this stage. So long term, I
Speaker 3: think Ant's gonna be better than Tatum. Like, I feel weird.
Speaker 3: I feel so weird about how everything's gotten with Tatum
Speaker 3: because I feel like there were so many people last
Speaker 3: year who wanted him to be in the MVP conversation,
Speaker 3: and I was like, he's just not at that level
Speaker 3: as an individual player. But then after the playoffs, I mean,
Speaker 3: there are so many people who take it much too
Speaker 3: far and say he's not top ten and are just
Speaker 3: solely focused on the scoring. And my take on that
Speaker 3: is it's always been an inconsistency of his it's always
Speaker 3: been frustrating. The three of us have harped many many
Speaker 3: times on his reliance on the pull up three and
Speaker 3: the volatility there, Like we can't pretend that that's never
Speaker 3: gonna happen again, that that like was just some miraculous
Speaker 3: misfortune in this postseason, but it was the worst possible
Speaker 3: version of it. And when I think about a Tatum
Speaker 3: who shoots thirty eight percent from over a playoff run,
Speaker 3: which is totally possible, Like that's just the most complete
Speaker 3: player in basketball. Definitely not the best, not top three,
Speaker 3: not even top five, because I don't think Tatum is
Speaker 3: a top five player in basketball in a vacuum when healthy.
Speaker 3: I just think he and Ant are the two most
Speaker 3: available stars and Jokic, so I really like them to
Speaker 3: carry me through a regular season and just consistently be
Speaker 3: out there on the court. But he's very complete, and
Speaker 3: he's extremely versatile, and at this stage, I do think
Speaker 3: that maturity makes a difference. An It's twenty three, so
Speaker 3: I cannot whatsoever discount the possibility that Ant takes a
Speaker 3: slightly bigger lead than I'm expecting, and that could be
Speaker 3: the difference between him being five and seven this year.
Speaker 3: And I do think he has a higher ceiling than Tatum,
Speaker 3: and I think he'll eventually be better than Tatum. It's
Speaker 3: just at this point I do trust Tatum more in
Speaker 3: terms of all around impact.
Speaker 2: I think you made a very good case. I for
Speaker 2: the record, I have Jason Tatum at seven and I
Speaker 2: do not see a gap. There's not a large gap.
Speaker 2: These guys are all kind of the same tier. For me.
Speaker 2: I just my case has been very simple that like
Speaker 2: I believe, especially by April, that Anthony Edwards's top end skill,
Speaker 2: that ability to just get to a spot. So, like you,
Speaker 2: in this postseason run, all of his struggles were against
Speaker 2: double teams. It was double teams in passivity. There was
Speaker 2: no one on one matchup where he struggled. Absolutely, There's
Speaker 2: really no one that can guard him, and that to
Speaker 2: me is that top end skill. I for the record,
Speaker 2: as I'm building a roster around ant, I would be
Speaker 2: hyper focused on finding a versatile defensive forward to play
Speaker 2: at the four that can do a lot of the
Speaker 2: stuff Tatum does. And I am such a huge believer
Speaker 2: in everything that he did. I agree with you, Like,
Speaker 2: even though Jalen Brown won the MVP, so to speak,
Speaker 2: I actually still think Tatum was their most useful and
Speaker 2: most important player over the course of that playoff run.
Speaker 2: He just isn't playing very well right now, which is
Speaker 2: a whole other issue, which I think he's gonna be fine.
Speaker 2: But that was definitely the biggest debate in my list
Speaker 2: was where we have Ant So number six I had
Speaker 2: Anthony Davis. The main reasoning there is, like Anthony Davis
Speaker 2: at the best postseason or post up season of his career,
Speaker 2: He's taken a significant leap as an individual shot creator
Speaker 2: in a way that he had in the past. Like
Speaker 2: you can dump the ball to the post to Anthony
Speaker 2: Davis and it's actually good offense now in a way
Speaker 2: that it wasn't in earlier phases of his career. I'm
Speaker 2: a huge fan of him as a five out fulcrum,
Speaker 2: like just in general, it's like a guy who screens
Speaker 2: and rolls into space and is in functions as a score.
Speaker 2: I actually think other than Jokic, he can't do much
Speaker 2: better than him. He was another guy who shot over
Speaker 2: fifty percent on floaters and hooks. He didn't shoot over
Speaker 2: sixty percent like Jokic's crazy ass, but he shot extremely
Speaker 2: well on floaters and hooks. That was a big leap
Speaker 2: forward for him this year. I thought he was incredibly
Speaker 2: impressive in the first round series. I thought he played
Speaker 2: Jokic to his standstill. Though I thought he was incredible
Speaker 2: in that series, I thought he was going right out
Speaker 2: of my account. I logged the possessions earlier. There were
Speaker 2: nine possessions where he like straight up went at Jokic
Speaker 2: one on one, and he scored on him seven of
Speaker 2: the nine times. By the tail end of the series,
Speaker 2: Denver was like straight up double teaming him on the catch,
Speaker 2: switching Aaron Gordon on him, overloading the paint. They were
Speaker 2: doing all kinds of stuff like that. I think Anthony
Speaker 2: Davis is a very useful offensive foundation, and I think
Speaker 2: he's one of the very best defensive foundations in the league.
Speaker 2: He's been very available over the course of the last
Speaker 2: year and a half. I think he's a player that
Speaker 2: scales up in the postseason. I think he's incredibly versatile
Speaker 2: to build around. I can run four out offense. You
Speaker 2: could plug him with Luca and he'd be the most
Speaker 2: devastating roleman in the league as a like a spamming
Speaker 2: high ball screen kind of guy. But you could also
Speaker 2: put him in Golden State and he could run five
Speaker 2: out offense. You could put him in Sacramento, you could
Speaker 2: put him in you can put him with any type
Speaker 2: of guard, any type of wing. Hell, he's playing with
Speaker 2: Lebron James as a forward where they're switching all these
Speaker 2: actions and he's still having a bunch of success as
Speaker 2: a post player. I just am super high on Anthony Davis.
Speaker 2: I think he's been playing at an incredibly high level
Speaker 2: in the calendar year, going from the tail end of
Speaker 2: the regular season, that first round series against Denver, and
Speaker 2: then he was one of the five most impactful players
Speaker 2: on Team USA this year. I'm really high on Anthony Davis.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna kick it to you first, Logan, because I
Speaker 2: know you're really high on Anthony Davis. So tell us
Speaker 2: where specifically you had him ranked and why you feel.
Speaker 4: That I have ad at number five.
Speaker 1: And it's the difference in consistency that I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm getting with Anthony Davis. Right two years ago, three
Speaker 1: years ago, every other Davis and it was a reasonable knock. Right,
Speaker 1: that was what everybody said about him, the passivity, the
Speaker 1: inability to.
Speaker 4: Play hard, like he looks scared out there.
Speaker 1: Anthony Davis to me, looks confident in a way offensively
Speaker 1: that I've never really seen him before. And it looks
Speaker 1: very different from his elite jump shooting run during the
Speaker 1: title run. It looks very different from even New Orleans
Speaker 1: when he's handling the rock. But I think it's a
Speaker 1: more reliable and refined offensive game. It's you know, strength
Speaker 1: where he has a strength advantage over most big men
Speaker 1: in the league today and he can go through guys
Speaker 1: and use that physical kind of game. But he's also
Speaker 1: got a little finesse right shooting turnarounds over his shoulder,
Speaker 1: the hooks, and the other aspects of the post game
Speaker 1: that he's added to his bag, and so I think
Speaker 1: he's a good offensive floor piece, and then defensively, he's
Speaker 1: the best defender on the planet and he's going to
Speaker 1: make me an elite defense. The reason the Lakers have
Speaker 1: been a good regular season team is because of Anthony Davis.
Speaker 1: And when we're talking about it in this sort of context,
Speaker 1: the malleability of my roster, Anthony Davis compliments anybody that
Speaker 1: I get him, right, I compare an elite defender and
Speaker 1: shooter alongside Anthony Davis. I can get a guard and
Speaker 1: he's going to set screens and be a great compliment
Speaker 1: for him there on the role. But he gives me
Speaker 1: the highest defensive baseline of anybody in the league. And
Speaker 1: you talk about that series against the Nuggets. I was
Speaker 1: really high on Anthony Davis coming into the postseason, coming
Speaker 1: into last year, right, he was a top ten guy
Speaker 1: to me. That series that we saw against Denver, and
Speaker 1: admittedly Jokic did not play a good defense series, Anthony
Speaker 1: Davis kind of bullied him offensively, that is, and it
Speaker 1: was a weaker matchup, but I was really impressed, and
Speaker 1: that offensive difference is why I'm fine with him being
Speaker 1: five right two years ago, three years ago. Those offensive
Speaker 1: limitations may have put him lower on this list, but
Speaker 1: I'm confident in him as an offensive player, and it's
Speaker 1: that ability to anchor the glass, it's.
Speaker 4: All of it.
Speaker 1: He's super well rounded, and I just think he'd compliment
Speaker 1: anybody that I could have in the second round. He
Speaker 1: just gives me such a high baseline. I know we're
Speaker 1: gonna get to the playoffs. I know we're gonna have
Speaker 1: an elite defense, and he's gonna do enough offensively on
Speaker 1: a night to night basis to carry me through. I'm
Speaker 1: really really high on AD and I don't know when
Speaker 1: the drop is coming right. Ad is getting up there
Speaker 1: an age, but to me, he's still in his prime
Speaker 1: a little bit. In this version of Anthony Davis is
Speaker 1: a little craftier, he's a little smarter. You know, it's
Speaker 1: a grown man. I know what I'm getting. He's a
Speaker 1: real sure thing. And so that's why Ad is five
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 2: Ad is tough.
Speaker 3: I have number eight. I think he's better than ANT.
Speaker 3: I just think health is more of a concern here,
Speaker 3: and he just had his healthiest season in a long time,
Speaker 3: arguably of his career, which was awesome. I just cannot
Speaker 3: erase the track record, which is that he's one of
Speaker 3: the most injury prone superstars in basketball. Twenty twenty one
Speaker 3: misses half the games, twenty twenty two misses more than
Speaker 3: half the games, twenty three still misses twenty six games.
Speaker 3: And it's great that he was fully healthy this year
Speaker 3: all the way through the postseason even but I still
Speaker 3: think that like that's an advantage that an ant that
Speaker 3: a Tatum have that I just know that I can
Speaker 3: pencil them in for seventy five to eighty games, and
Speaker 3: I cannot possibly do that for Anthony Davis. However, I
Speaker 3: do think he and Lebron are very very close. For me,
Speaker 3: I went back and forth between the two of them. Ultimately,
Speaker 3: I think I would rather take Lebron for that one
Speaker 3: game do or die format because of how he can
Speaker 3: just completely control a game offensively and impose himself physically
Speaker 3: and just create great shot after great shot for himself
Speaker 3: and others. But I do think Ad is the most
Speaker 3: important regular season player because of what he brings as
Speaker 3: a defensive anchor. As you mentioned, Logan, I think he's
Speaker 3: the best defender on the planet. I think that he
Speaker 3: is the most complete defensive big when you consider the
Speaker 3: ability to guard in space, to play multiple different coverages,
Speaker 3: to be an elite rint protector, having great hands right
Speaker 3: when it comes to getting in passing lanes, affecting pocket passes,
Speaker 3: and he's a dominant, dominant rebounder of the basketball at
Speaker 3: this stage of his career. All of that makes him
Speaker 3: like the perfect one. B. The other reason, on top
Speaker 3: of his health, that I couldn't quite have him in
Speaker 3: the top five is I do just think there is
Speaker 3: still a different level of complete offensive dominance from most
Speaker 3: of the dudes in that range, or with Tatum at least,
Speaker 3: there's a different level of offensive versatility. Like eighty at
Speaker 3: this point is a damn good scorer of the basketball,
Speaker 3: but of course he's more limited as a playmaker than
Speaker 3: any somebody else who we're going to talk about in
Speaker 3: the top ten, and he just like can't carry that
Speaker 3: sort of usage, carry that sort of load where he
Speaker 3: is like elevating a team offense in the same way,
Speaker 3: he is very much meant to be the play finisher.
Speaker 3: And you mentioned Jason, He's improved as a self creator.
Speaker 3: He's a really good post player, his touch has been phenomenal,
Speaker 3: But like fundamentally he is built to be the interior
Speaker 3: finisher in my opinion, alongside a great pick and roll
Speaker 3: ball handler, a great perimeter offensive player, and so basically
Speaker 3: to be a number two offensively, just a great number two.
Speaker 3: That's the reason, along with his health, that I have
Speaker 3: him a couple spots lower than you guys. I just
Speaker 3: think there are certain dudes who can carry heavier loads.
Speaker 3: Everybody on the list offensively.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird because everybody after four I think has
Speaker 2: a glaring hole, Like I have Anthony Davis at five,
Speaker 2: or excuse me, Anthony Edwards at five. For him, it's
Speaker 2: experience and decision making right, Like it's like you can't
Speaker 2: afford to have two really bad games in the Western
Speaker 2: Conference Finals because you can't figure out what's happening to you.
Speaker 2: Like he averaged something crazy like twenty eight, nine and
Speaker 2: ten over the final three games of that series. Like
Speaker 2: he like he woke up. But it's like those two
Speaker 2: games he fell out, fell down two zero, and both
Speaker 2: of those games were winnable. Those are both games that
Speaker 2: were close, and it's like, that's that's catastrophic. Ad. I
Speaker 2: agree with you. He's just doesn't quite have that like
Speaker 2: real offensive engine type of capability. We talked about Tatum
Speaker 2: and now he doesn't have an eight plus skill. They
Speaker 2: all have those issues, and so that to me is
Speaker 2: where like you could really kind of you could like
Speaker 2: Devil's advocate your way into anybody on this list being anywhere,
Speaker 2: like like just by by hyper focusing on that. Like
Speaker 2: Ad should be eleven because he's not as high level
Speaker 2: an offensive player like Joel, and Bid should be number
Speaker 2: five because he's won an MVP. You know, like you
Speaker 2: could go back and forth on any of these guys,
Speaker 2: and but the case you make, I think makes a
Speaker 2: lot of sense that it's wish there's a certain amount
Speaker 2: of wishful thinking with AD's availability. He's been very available
Speaker 2: for a season and a half. Is that a blip
Speaker 2: or is that a trend? That's what we're gonna find
Speaker 2: out right, Like you can uh definitely poke holes there.
Speaker 2: But for me, yeah, I just the other things too.
Speaker 2: For Ad, why I had him up there. He's one
Speaker 2: of my favorite rock fight players in the NBA, Like
Speaker 2: when you find yourself in like a real just shitthole
Speaker 2: of an ugly playoff game, like he's just a dude
Speaker 2: you want on your team because he's gonna get offensive
Speaker 2: rebound put backs. He's gonna be banging and playing in
Speaker 2: the physicality and doing well. Like he's just the kind
Speaker 2: of guy I like having in those settings. Number seven,
Speaker 2: I had Jason Tatum. We're not gonna spend too much
Speaker 2: time on him here, just because we've talked about him
Speaker 2: quite a bit. But yeah, again, Carson, I thought you
Speaker 2: did a wonderful job breaking down his defensive versatility. He
Speaker 2: in all likelihood, is the most versatile defensive forward that's
Speaker 2: not a center. I think, I think you'd rather have
Speaker 2: a guy like Bam or Ad playing those kinds of roles,
Speaker 2: but it's just unrealistic because they're centers. But like among
Speaker 2: the non centers, he's our most versatile defensive player in
Speaker 2: the NBA. I even I even include Giannis as like
Speaker 2: a center type of archetype in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: So like, I agree with you in that sense. I
Speaker 2: thought I thought that, like his offensive role was very
Speaker 2: small and simple, but I also thought he executed it well, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: just get that initial advantage and we'll play driving kick.
Speaker 2: That's a very easy role. There are a lot of
Speaker 2: players in the league that would kill to have that role,
Speaker 2: but that's the role Tatum has and he did it
Speaker 2: extremely well. Who did I have? So hold on really quick,
Speaker 2: I have Carson. You had Tatum at five? Who did
Speaker 2: you have at se second?
Speaker 3: Give him my six yet?
Speaker 2: And okay, why don't you why don't you go ahead
Speaker 2: and give us your sex.
Speaker 3: No, this guy is just off your list, Jason. I
Speaker 3: have Joel Embiid in my sixth spot, which is interesting
Speaker 3: because similarly to Tatum, who I think I have higher
Speaker 3: than some people might at this point. Like I've been
Speaker 3: a big, big Embiid critic over the years, and when
Speaker 3: people have elevated him into the best player of the
Speaker 3: world conversation, I just don't think that he's earned that.
Speaker 3: And I do think that there are very very legitimate
Speaker 3: qualms with his postseason performance that doesn't just come down
Speaker 3: to dumb luck, like there are things that have consistently
Speaker 3: failed him. The reason I have him at the most
Speaker 3: obvious red flag and reason to have him lower than
Speaker 3: this or to have him off your list is health.
Speaker 3: I mean, he is the most injury prone player on
Speaker 3: this list, more so than ad, more so than anybody
Speaker 3: else who you would have on this list. Here, though,
Speaker 3: I am going with a little bit of optimism when
Speaker 3: I think about the ceiling that is presented by any
Speaker 3: of these players, like the gap between Embiid and everybody
Speaker 3: outside of my top four in this list, Jokic, Jannis, Luke,
Speaker 3: Sga like, it's just massive. I think that when Luke,
Speaker 3: when Embiid is playing at his best, when he's healthy
Speaker 3: and available over the course of a season postseason, which
Speaker 3: to be fair, he's never been healthy over the course
Speaker 3: of an entire season. But if you get that one run,
Speaker 3: if you strike that gold, I just think the gap
Speaker 3: in the ceiling justifies me having him above an ant
Speaker 3: who I don't think is that level of a dominant force. Yet,
Speaker 3: like when Embide is on the floor, he's just a
Speaker 3: one of a kind monster. Like this is a dude
Speaker 3: who legitimately can give you thirty three to thirty five
Speaker 3: points a night on a lead efficiency, who was unstoppable
Speaker 3: facing up, who's two hundred and eighty plus pounds, and
Speaker 3: yet handles the ball very effectively, obviously going to eat
Speaker 3: up free throws and then defensively, I have my issues
Speaker 3: with him. I think sometimes he gets overrated there because
Speaker 3: of his limitations in space, because of his lack of
Speaker 3: quickness moving up and down the floor in transition, but
Speaker 3: as a pure improtector, he's one of the best that
Speaker 3: we have in basketball, So there's just a ceiling of
Speaker 3: taking away the rim and being completely unguardable as a
Speaker 3: scorer offensively. That makes him obviously one of the absolute
Speaker 3: best regular season playoff performers. The reasons that it hasn't
Speaker 3: translated in the same way to the playoffs. His jump
Speaker 3: shot has consistently failed him, and this year was improvement
Speaker 3: in that respect. Like we saw him actually have some
Speaker 3: really good jump shooting performances against the Knicks. It was
Speaker 3: still inconsistent, but like the couple years before that, he's
Speaker 3: averaging zero point six points per jump shot in the playoffs,
Speaker 3: which is just awful and way, way, way worse than
Speaker 3: what we've seen from him in the regular season. His playmaking, also,
Speaker 3: where he's going to see way more double teams in
Speaker 3: the playoffs, has consistently been an issue every year. I'm
Speaker 3: pretty sure before this season he had a negative assist
Speaker 3: to turnover ratio, and yeah, he demands a huge amount
Speaker 3: of defensive attention, but he was not able to consistently
Speaker 3: create a high shot quality for his teammates as much
Speaker 3: as he should considering how many double teams he's drawing,
Speaker 3: because he didn't always make the reads turn the ball
Speaker 3: over too much. I also think him wearing down physically
Speaker 3: is a factor here, because even though he's been on
Speaker 3: the floor in these recent postseasons, rarely has he been
Speaker 3: one hundred percent. And I don't think that's a cop out.
Speaker 3: I mean, this year was the most hurt that he's
Speaker 3: been with the meniscus, and it was the best he's played,
Speaker 3: So I do think that that's a bright spot overall,
Speaker 3: even though it was still a flawed performance. But like
Speaker 3: if you're an NB defender, there's always been something that
Speaker 3: you could point at. Right, he broke his face, he's
Speaker 3: sick his knee this year, and so you have to
Speaker 3: factor that in. But I think that there is a
Speaker 3: level of dominance that he can reach that is just
Speaker 3: different from everybody else who I have below him on
Speaker 3: my list. So I have him at six because of that.
Speaker 3: If I'm just thinking you are my number one, I
Speaker 3: need you to carry me to a title. I need
Speaker 3: you to carry me to fifty five wins in the
Speaker 3: regular season, and be it has a capability to do
Speaker 3: that that the people below him can't. But I also
Speaker 3: understand if because of health, because of playoff stuff, because
Speaker 3: of lack of stylistic versatility, you have him off your
Speaker 3: list because all of those things have come back to
Speaker 3: bite him.
Speaker 2: To your point, there's nobody that could like actually run
Speaker 2: rough shot over everyone else on this list, Like you know,
Speaker 2: like if you were like, hey, Steph Curry's just gonna
Speaker 2: like fuck everyone up next year and just like just
Speaker 2: outplay Luca head to head and then he's gonna outplay
Speaker 2: Yokic had to head, like you would be stunned if
Speaker 2: you saw something like that. But like Joel Embiid has
Speaker 2: that potential that's always in there, Like I've been saying
Speaker 2: this forever, like he might just wrecking ball everybody at
Speaker 2: some point. Like he has that potential in a way
Speaker 2: that no one else on this list does. I had
Speaker 2: him down at eleven for the simple fact that he
Speaker 2: is a down mark in all three of my primary criteria.
Speaker 2: Is he a reliable regular season performer in the sense
Speaker 2: like is he gonna play seventy five plus games and
Speaker 2: give you consistent production every single night?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Is he the guy that ramps his game up in
Speaker 2: the postseason. No, it's the opposite. Is he a guy
Speaker 2: that plays that has a lot of versatility in different
Speaker 2: types of play style. No, he's a drop coverage big.
Speaker 2: He can't guard in space. He has to play. I
Speaker 2: don't even think he's a good high drop coverage big.
Speaker 2: I think he needs to be in a deep drop
Speaker 2: I think that's pretty much the only way you can play.
Speaker 2: You got to park him out at the rim. And
Speaker 2: we've seen him against the Celtics in particular, really struggle
Speaker 2: to guard in space. And then on the opposite end
Speaker 2: of the floor, guys like we just saw him look
Speaker 2: like a fish out of water playing alongside other players
Speaker 2: in ball and player movement, like literally look like he
Speaker 2: doesn't know what to do. And so those three reasons
Speaker 2: for me were the main reasons I put him at
Speaker 2: the bottom of this list. But to be clear, I
Speaker 2: don't see much gap between five and eleven. That was
Speaker 2: just my rationale for putting him at eleven. Logan, I have,
Speaker 2: so I have eighty at five for you, who do
Speaker 2: you have at number six?
Speaker 4: We already talked about him in depth. I have Tatum
Speaker 4: at six.
Speaker 2: You have Tatum at six, Okay, who do you have
Speaker 2: at number seven? Logan?
Speaker 4: At seven.
Speaker 1: We also already talked about him. That is Bruce A
Speaker 1: loted Anthony Edwards.
Speaker 2: In that's where you have Aunt, Okay Carson. Who do
Speaker 2: you have at seven? Yeah? Aunt at seven? Okay Logan,
Speaker 2: Who do you have at number eight?
Speaker 4: At number eight, I have Stephan Curry.
Speaker 1: And Stephan was a hard guy to rank because we're
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, flaws, and I think that Steph
Speaker 1: is probably not probably, I mean he's definitively the least
Speaker 1: impactful defender on this list.
Speaker 4: But again we're talking about situations. The Warriors have not
Speaker 4: done Stephan Curry any favors with their situation for the
Speaker 4: past few years, I mean, no moves. He's carrying an insane.
Speaker 1: Burden of this offense with I mean, who do you guys,
Speaker 1: We'll take a poll over here real quick.
Speaker 4: Who was their second best offensive player last year? Was
Speaker 4: it still Clay?
Speaker 3: I thinks still Clay, which is not good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd probably say Clay, but yeah it wouldn't. It
Speaker 2: was close between him and Kmingo, which is not good,
Speaker 2: not at all.
Speaker 1: And so I think that Steph's issues in Steph's last
Speaker 1: stretch of this season, his last twenty games or what
Speaker 1: everybody wants to point to. I think it gets a
Speaker 1: little bit exacerbated because of how big the anvil is
Speaker 1: on Steph's shoulders, trying to carry this team with you know,
Speaker 1: limited floor spacing, with lineups with Draymond Green, with TJD,
Speaker 1: with Kevon Looney, with your second best with Kamingo, with
Speaker 1: your second best offensive players being Klay Thompson or Kaminga
Speaker 1: or I mean beepods. Like, I think Steph has such
Speaker 1: a hard job, and in this redraft, I can pick
Speaker 1: whoever the hell I want around him. I'm just going
Speaker 1: to give him more options offensively. I'm gonna get another
Speaker 1: secondary superstar alongside him that can help alleviate some of
Speaker 1: this pressure off of him. And I think at certain
Speaker 1: positions I can pick and choose athletic, defensive minded guys.
Speaker 1: They're gonna make up for his limitations defensively. So I
Speaker 1: do think that Steph has lost a little bit of
Speaker 1: a step in terms of athleticism, in terms of rim pressure, right,
Speaker 1: I think you'd be a fool to not highlight those things.
Speaker 1: But again, Steph can stress the defense the way nobody
Speaker 1: in NBA.
Speaker 4: History has ever been able to.
Speaker 1: I mean, you saw it in the Olympics, Francis throwing
Speaker 1: two dudes at him, and He's still like, yeah, give
Speaker 1: me the ball back because I'm gonna bang this thing.
Speaker 4: He's just that kind of player.
Speaker 1: And when I'm thinking about the criteria here, Steph is
Speaker 1: still a playoff riser. I anticipate when he gets to
Speaker 1: that stage, He's one of the best gamers ever. He's
Speaker 1: gonna take and elevate up a notch. He's the guy
Speaker 1: that in a Game seven, in a Game six, when
Speaker 1: I need to put the nail on the coffin, he
Speaker 1: can give me forty to fifty points when I need
Speaker 1: him to. And during the regular season, he's gonna make
Speaker 1: me a great offense if I have the personnel around him,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna be a good enough defense if I
Speaker 1: put the pieces around him. And so the real issue,
Speaker 1: the real tough decision I had to make here, was
Speaker 1: between Steph and Lebron, And the component for me between
Speaker 1: that matchup was who do I trust more in the
Speaker 1: regular season to give me their all to play up
Speaker 1: to one hundred percent if this is a one game format.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you, guys, I think I
Speaker 1: might take Lebron over anybody that includes maybe not Jokic,
Speaker 1: but bronte Down, Settle Down, cow, Lebron. Lebron's one of
Speaker 1: the top three guys that I'm taking in a single
Speaker 1: game format, but when we include the regular season component
Speaker 1: of it, that's where I have a harder time ranking Lebron.
Speaker 1: And so that's why I gave Steph the nod over him.
Speaker 1: But I just think he's got a really tough burden
Speaker 1: on his shoulders in Golden State, and in a hypothetical
Speaker 1: redraft situation, I think I could be able a really,
Speaker 1: really competitive team and a better team than the Warriors
Speaker 1: to put around him around stuff.
Speaker 2: The Steph Curry thing is is super challenging because, like,
Speaker 2: I am such a huge believer in Steph, but my
Speaker 2: belief hasn't matched up to the actual basketball that he's
Speaker 2: played over the course of this calendar year. Over the
Speaker 2: course of the final twenty three games of the regular season,
Speaker 2: he averaged twenty two point seven points per game, four
Speaker 2: point eight rebounds, five point two assists. He shot forty
Speaker 2: one point nine percent from the field thirty seven point
Speaker 2: five percent from three. That's that's not like a little
Speaker 2: bit of a that's not superstar production anymore. And then
Speaker 2: he was pretty bad in the Winter the Winner Go
Speaker 2: Home game, and then he was pretty bad in the
Speaker 2: Team USA up until the final two games. And even then,
Speaker 2: like I was like frustrated watching the Serbia game because
Speaker 2: like he was hitting all these shots at the start
Speaker 2: of the Serbia game, but like at the same time
Speaker 2: losing shooters on the other end, not doing his job
Speaker 2: and giving up points, and like there's a certain amount
Speaker 2: of like athletic physical decline. But then there's this like
Speaker 2: other side of me that is such a believer in
Speaker 2: all the intangible things that Steph does, like like just
Speaker 2: something simple, like just him running around is an offensive
Speaker 2: engine in a way that it isn't for other teams.
Speaker 2: And like even with Team USA, like even when he
Speaker 2: wasn't shooting well, he was still creating all of these
Speaker 2: openings and these opportunities for people. And like, I think
Speaker 2: he's one of the best leaders in the league. Logan,
Speaker 2: I agree with you. Like I think Lebron, there's like
Speaker 2: a certain amount of like will he try hard tonight,
Speaker 2: whereas with Steph, like I at least think he's gonna try,
Speaker 2: Like he just has a more consistent nightly effort kind
Speaker 2: of regimen in the regular season. It's kind of like
Speaker 2: part of his identity. He's one of the most well
Speaker 2: conditioned stars in the league. But it's just tough because,
Speaker 2: like there's been a legitimate defensive decline, Like he's gone
Speaker 2: from being a guy who's slightly above average on defense
Speaker 2: to probably more on the below average side. He's just
Speaker 2: isn't as athletic as he used to be. That as
Speaker 2: far as everyone talks about the roster, and I agree,
Speaker 2: like he has easily the worst roster of these eleven guys.
Speaker 2: That goes without saying, But in twenty twenty one, he
Speaker 2: had an even worse roster than this, and he would,
Speaker 2: like know Klay Thompson, that was the Kelly Ubra year,
Speaker 2: that was the Camp Basemore year. Like that was a
Speaker 2: funky ass roster and and he was torching everybody because
Speaker 2: he still had that unbelievable superstar high end. So like,
Speaker 2: I have this part of me, like and I truly
Speaker 2: believe this for the record, I believe that there's a
Speaker 2: good amount of slump going on there that he's going
Speaker 2: to bounce back from. And I actually I actually believe
Speaker 2: that Steph's going to have a big bounce back season.
Speaker 2: I think the Warriors will kind of rejoin the middle
Speaker 2: of the pack in the West, and Steph will kind
Speaker 2: of re enter some of those conversations. But that is
Speaker 2: wishful thinking at this point that is not based on
Speaker 2: actual basketball that is taking place. Like that, we are
Speaker 2: on a large sample now of Steph not looking like
Speaker 2: Steph with exception of really small bursts, and so that
Speaker 2: with that being the case, Like for instance, it's like
Speaker 2: Lebron and KD both of them just simply have better
Speaker 2: cases to be above Steph at this point. They just do.
Speaker 2: They're both substantially better two way players whenever they need
Speaker 2: to leverage their athletic gifts, and they both have been
Speaker 2: playing better offense for a long time now. So my
Speaker 2: wishful thinking isn't enough to justify like kind of taking
Speaker 2: emotion out of it and trying to look at what's
Speaker 2: actually taking place. So, Carson, where are you at with Steph?
Speaker 2: Where do you have him? Right?
Speaker 3: I have Steph at ten, So I do have him
Speaker 3: below Lebron, but I do actually have him above Katie.
Speaker 3: And the one thing that I'll push back on with
Speaker 3: him in relation to Katie is that I do still
Speaker 3: think he's a better offensive engine. I understand Katie's scoring
Speaker 3: efficiency is always going to be phenomenal. His scoring production
Speaker 3: is always going to be phenomenal. But when you talk
Speaker 3: about the way that Steph stresses a defense in a
Speaker 3: way that we've never seen before, like that is still
Speaker 3: leading the Warriors offense to produce at a level that
Speaker 3: does not make any human sense. With him on the floor,
Speaker 3: they were an eighty second percentile offense this year, Like,
Speaker 3: how is that possible? With Clay chucking up the worst
Speaker 3: shots you've seen in your lifetime? Wiggins just off again
Speaker 3: for an entire year and often two complete, non shooting,
Speaker 3: unskilled scoring bigs on the floor an eighty second percentile offense,
Speaker 3: Like I do think that's where we have to give
Speaker 3: him at least some grace, some benefit of the doubt
Speaker 3: for the situation, and give him credit for what he
Speaker 3: has managed to salvage for making them a good offense
Speaker 3: in a competitive basketball team when there's just no reason
Speaker 3: that should be the case. Still also one of the
Speaker 3: most efficient scoring guards this year, Like you mentioned his slump, Jason,
Speaker 3: in spite of that, he was still sixty two percent
Speaker 3: true shooting on the season. So for all those reasons,
Speaker 3: I still think he belongs on the list. I think
Speaker 3: people who are talking about the falloff of Steph need
Speaker 3: to settle down, understand the context, understand his one of
Speaker 3: one impact. Like if you want to compare him to Brunson,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, man, I just don't think that's like a real,
Speaker 3: real conversation yet. And I do think it's worth remembering.
Speaker 3: Last time it felt like Steph had regressed was in
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty two regular season, and then he had
Speaker 3: maybe the best playoff front of his career, and then
Speaker 3: he had another phenomenal regular season and a really impressive
Speaker 3: postseason overall in twenty twenty three. So although I do
Speaker 3: think he's clearly taking a step back, I mean, Jason,
Speaker 3: you're talking about twenty twenty one Steph. That's not the
Speaker 3: Steph Curry that we're seeing, right, He's very clearly not
Speaker 3: that player. Nor is he twenty twenty two, nor do
Speaker 3: I think he's twenty twenty three. But people who think
Speaker 3: the sky is falling that he's not a top ten player,
Speaker 3: I think are taking it too far. But we're talking
Speaker 3: about a lot of elite, elite players around him who
Speaker 3: do have different levels of two way impact who do
Speaker 3: have just completely different levels of physical imposition, And Steph
Speaker 3: has taken a bit of a step back defensively. He
Speaker 3: has taken a step back athletically. I mean he never
Speaker 3: gets to the rim any more. Seven percent of his
Speaker 3: shots were inside of three feet this year, Like you
Speaker 3: compare that to peak Steph even you know, five years ago,
Speaker 3: like that number was in the low twenties. And so that,
Speaker 3: although he is the best pull up shooter we've ever seen,
Speaker 3: does take away an element of his scoring game, not
Speaker 3: a major one, but a slight one in terms of
Speaker 3: both production and efficiency. And it wasn't his best playmaking season.
Speaker 3: So I have Steph down at ten. I do think
Speaker 3: that when I compare him to an ad like the
Speaker 3: two way impact just surpasses him. When I compare him
Speaker 3: to a Lebron, I do trust Lebron to very consistently
Speaker 3: get what he wants more because he still has such
Speaker 3: athletic advantages and so many ways to score and create
Speaker 3: for others. But Steph is still one hell of an
Speaker 3: offensive engine, and he still deserves a spot here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's tough because, like if we were
Speaker 2: using my criteria from last year, which was strictly like
Speaker 2: how good of a season did you have? He has
Speaker 2: no case for top ten. Steph has no case for
Speaker 2: top ten like Jalen Brunt and did have a better
Speaker 2: season than Steph last year like that, Like that, that
Speaker 2: is all stuff that you can get into. We are
Speaker 2: putting him at ten as a sign of respect in
Speaker 2: what we know he's capable of. That slump in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two is something that I was calling attention to
Speaker 2: at the time, and that's one of the big reasons
Speaker 2: why I do believe he's going to bounce back this year.
Speaker 2: It just was weird because, like to your point, during
Speaker 2: that twenty three game span from February twenty third on
Speaker 2: when he was in his slump, the Warriors only had
Speaker 2: a one to fourteen offensive rating with Steph on the floor.
Speaker 2: So like during this, like the reality is all the
Speaker 2: running around has a certain amount of value, but you
Speaker 2: need Steph to hit shots. He needs to hit shots,
Speaker 2: He needs to punish teams. There needs to be another
Speaker 2: level of production there that he hasn't been able to
Speaker 2: get to. But like I think part like I would
Speaker 2: love to just see him get another chance because he
Speaker 2: is not set up for success at this point in time,
Speaker 2: and so I'm hopeful that Golden State gives him a
Speaker 2: little bit more firepower so we could at least maybe
Speaker 2: see whether or not this is something that he still
Speaker 2: has in there. So, Carson, who did you have a
Speaker 2: number eight? You have ad at number eight, Okay, So
Speaker 2: my number eight was Lebron. I think Lebron is playing
Speaker 2: if you strictly look at basketball played in this calendar
Speaker 2: year twenty twenty four, I don't think anybody has played
Speaker 2: better basketball than Lebron other than Luca and Jokic. I
Speaker 2: think that his playoff series was magnificent in a way
Speaker 2: that is like actually kind of overlooked, Like this is
Speaker 2: what like the two games where Jamal Murray hit the
Speaker 2: game winners, Lebron was awesome in both of those games
Speaker 2: in clutch time, like Lebron. If you would have said, hey,
Speaker 2: it's gonna be a crunch time game and Lebron's gonna
Speaker 2: hit these shots, You're like, oh, Lakers are winning this game.
Speaker 2: The problem was is Denver scored on every single possession
Speaker 2: down the stretch, and a big part of that is
Speaker 2: they are playing three average to be defensive players at
Speaker 2: all times. Because of their roster construct. They have Austin Reeves,
Speaker 2: who has no business guarding the opposing team's best perimeter
Speaker 2: star guarding the other team's best perimeter star, right, like
Speaker 2: Michael Porter Junior was absolutely cutting up Ruey Hatcha Murra
Speaker 2: in screen actions because he just wasn't paying attention and
Speaker 2: getting lost off the ball. Now really had a bunch
Speaker 2: of other tough responsibility to spend a bunch of time
Speaker 2: on Jokich. It was a tough series, but like those
Speaker 2: guys were overmatched, and like, honestly I thought Lebron was
Speaker 2: playing like true top tier superstar basketball in that first
Speaker 2: round series, and a couple of Jamal Murray buckets in
Speaker 2: a Denver offense that was unstoppable at the end of
Speaker 2: the game ended up being something that they couldn't overcome.
Speaker 2: But Lebron was playing at an insanely high level in
Speaker 2: the postseason run. He played at an insanely high level
Speaker 2: to end the regular season, and then in with Tim
Speaker 2: Usa like just another wonderful example of just his overall
Speaker 2: versatility and like everything that makes Lebron a Swiss army knife.
Speaker 2: And so again, I don't I think he's gonna play
Speaker 2: you know, sixty five to seventy five games this year.
Speaker 2: I think he's gonna play hard and maybe half of them,
Speaker 2: maybe half of them. So I think in terms of
Speaker 2: regular season production, in terms of overall two way impact,
Speaker 2: he's probably close to the bottom of this list of eleven.
Speaker 2: But in any high leverage moment, I still should take
Speaker 2: Lebron over just about anybody in the world other than
Speaker 2: those guys at this at the very top. So I
Speaker 2: have him at number eight, did you guys, Why don't
Speaker 2: you guys, let's start with you. Logan, tell me where
Speaker 2: you guys had Lebron right.
Speaker 1: Lebron in my next spot at number nine, and I
Speaker 1: completely agree with what you just said.
Speaker 4: That's the big component to me.
Speaker 1: A playoff run, a playoff series, a big game, a
Speaker 1: big moment. There's only one guy I'm taking over Lebron,
Speaker 1: and that's Jokic, And that's just a testament to what
Speaker 1: he is. The rim pressure he can still exert on
Speaker 1: the game, the genius basketball IQ, the fact that I mean,
Speaker 1: I think Lebron I can't remember the stat exactly, but
Speaker 1: it was like he's the only guy to shoot forty
Speaker 1: percent from behind the arc in like seventy percent at
Speaker 1: the rim or something ridiculous like that, like that's forty
Speaker 1: year old Lebron Man. That doesn't make any sense. Like
Speaker 1: the fact that you're talking about the Denver series. The
Speaker 1: fact that he can go to basically a post up
Speaker 1: against everybody and it's one of the most efficient play
Speaker 1: types in all the basketball the fact that you have
Speaker 1: to send a second defender or he's getting that shot off.
Speaker 4: The physical tools combined with the skills.
Speaker 2: Quick quick stat for you guys logan, since you shouted
Speaker 2: it out. Among high volume post up players players A
Speaker 2: ran at least two hundred fifty post ups last year,
Speaker 2: Lebron was second in the league behind your.
Speaker 1: Kichredible the physical tools combined with the with the basketball
Speaker 1: skill that he has, combined with the IQ, there's nobody
Speaker 1: else I would want in a big game playoff run.
Speaker 4: It's only the regular season component.
Speaker 1: Just because I know Lebron physically cannot hold up to
Speaker 1: the physical toll that an eighty two game season would
Speaker 1: take on him. I just know he's not gonna exert
Speaker 1: himself physically the way I need my number one too.
Speaker 1: So that's why he's down at number It has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with ability whatsoever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I completely agree with Logan. I have Lebron at
Speaker 3: nine as well, and it is because of the regular
Speaker 3: season effort and also regular season availability. This was Lebron's
Speaker 3: healthiest season in a while, but he's consistently been good
Speaker 3: to miss twenty five thirty games a year over his
Speaker 3: seasons with the Lakers. So yeah, he's not going to
Speaker 3: carry you through a regular season in the same way
Speaker 3: that some of the consistently available, very high effort younger
Speaker 3: players at the top of this list are. But he
Speaker 3: wouldn't be number two for me in a single game format,
Speaker 3: but I do think that he would probably be in
Speaker 3: my five spot. I still believe very very deeply in
Speaker 3: the consistent offensive brilliance of Lebron. He's a top three
Speaker 3: transition scorer in basketball. He's an absolute freight train. He's
Speaker 3: a genius playmaker, and he just had the best jump
Speaker 3: shooting season of his career, which I think was huge
Speaker 3: to him having such a great postseason, such a brilliant
Speaker 3: regular season offensively, like when he's a forty percent three
Speaker 3: point shooter, when he's that effective a spot up player,
Speaker 3: I mean, there's just not anything approaching a hole in
Speaker 3: his game. Offensively, he's probably the most versatile offensive player
Speaker 3: in basketball. And when he wants to be still an
Speaker 3: above average defender, still very good hands, still very smart,
Speaker 3: good defensive rebounder, an above average lowman. I wouldn't call
Speaker 3: him a good defender in totality because there's so many
Speaker 3: instances in which the effort and the focus just isn't there.
Speaker 3: But again, if we're talking about one game.
Speaker 2: Not in the regular season, yeah, not in the regular
Speaker 2: he's he's Lebron is a bad defender in the regular season,
Speaker 2: like he because the problem too is the Lakers constantly
Speaker 2: ask him to play that low man position behind Anthony Davis,
Speaker 2: and that's like a position you have to play hard
Speaker 2: and like, like Lebron just be like, I'll can see
Speaker 2: this layup on the role because I just feel like
Speaker 2: taking this possession off. Like, but he's also one of
Speaker 2: the best at it when you need him to be,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So, like that's the how
Speaker 2: do you qualify that?
Speaker 3: That's very much the story with Lebron. Right, we know
Speaker 3: that he's not going to be the regular season performer
Speaker 3: of these other guys, but we know in a high
Speaker 3: stakes situation, like he is still among the absolute best
Speaker 3: of the best. And the fact that that is still
Speaker 3: possible at forty years old, that he's going to be
Speaker 3: this season, I mean, it's just unfathomable. We've never seen
Speaker 3: anything like it, you know, Kareem incredible longevity, Karl Malone,
Speaker 3: incredible longevity. We've never seen somebody playing at the level
Speaker 3: where you say, yeah, in a high stakes scenario, like
Speaker 3: they would be one of the first five dudes or
Speaker 3: even first ten dudes that I would take off the
Speaker 3: board at forty years old. It's it's unthinkable.
Speaker 2: So a couple of quick Lebron stats before we move on.
Speaker 2: So his final twenty two games of the regular season,
Speaker 2: that's post All Star Break. So Lebron posts All Star
Speaker 2: Break twenty eight points, eight rebounds, and ten assists, fifty
Speaker 2: eight percent from the field, forty five percent from three,
Speaker 2: that's sixty seven percent true shooting like that. That is
Speaker 2: absolutely outrageous. He shot four for five in clutch situations
Speaker 2: in the Denver series and somehow lost both games. And like,
Speaker 2: what's crazy too, is like he was doing like he
Speaker 2: was hitting like tough, contested mid range pull up, like
Speaker 2: he was hitting like superstar shots too, Like he looked
Speaker 2: like playing like at that top tier, superstar level. It
Speaker 2: just wasn't enough with that particular team. And I think,
Speaker 2: you know so much talk about the Lakers that that's
Speaker 2: one of the most common takes that I get, is like, oh,
Speaker 2: if Lebron's at eight and AD's at six, how did
Speaker 2: they you know, how are they a playing team? And
Speaker 2: it's like, well, they've had that three and ten stretch,
Speaker 2: which obviously kind of nuked their regular season, but also
Speaker 2: the Lakers were I thought the Lakers were good last year.
Speaker 2: I mean they literally had seventeen wins against teams in
Speaker 2: the top ten in point differential that tied the Celtics
Speaker 2: for the most in the league. Like, I thought they
Speaker 2: did as good a job against Denver as you can
Speaker 2: do in a loss as you can do. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: that was a couple of Jamal Murray shots away from
Speaker 2: being a much longer and more of a coin flip
Speaker 2: type of series.
Speaker 3: Ad were both great in that series. I mean Ad
Speaker 3: was the best offensively that we've seen him, easily since
Speaker 3: the bubble. Lebron was brilliant, Like it was just an
Speaker 3: all time disaster class from the role players. And there's
Speaker 3: issues in roster construction, as you mentioned, but I understand
Speaker 3: how it seems counterintuitive. I also don't understand how you
Speaker 3: can actually watch and disagree that these are two top
Speaker 3: ten players like they just are. Watch how Lebron dominates
Speaker 3: the game offensively and impacts of defensively when it matters.
Speaker 3: Watch eighty as again the best defensive player on the
Speaker 3: planet in a brilliant offensive player. The efficiency, the physical
Speaker 3: imposition from both of them, like they do their job,
Speaker 3: they play at an extremely high level. The team around them
Speaker 3: just isn't what it needs to be. And also they've
Speaker 3: played the Denver Nuggets the last two years in the
Speaker 3: playoffs and that's a really tough draw.
Speaker 2: It's like anybody who watched that series and came away
Speaker 2: thinking Lebron and Ad aren't good enough, I just don't
Speaker 2: know how you could think. Like, if you watch that series,
Speaker 2: it was so abundantly clear what was happening. It was like,
Speaker 2: Austin's there, dude. Austin's the one guy they know they
Speaker 2: can count on. He's like a real player. And by
Speaker 2: the way that he's doing what he's doing offensively while
Speaker 2: shouldering the lead point of attack defensive role, which is
Speaker 2: something he has no business fucker're doing and he's doing it,
Speaker 2: and like, if you watch it, it's like, oh, we
Speaker 2: all have known d Loo is a bad playoff performer forever. Well,
Speaker 2: guess what he bageled in the must Wing game back
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles when they needed it right like that,
Speaker 2: that's to be expected. That's the d Angela Russell experience.
Speaker 2: And then one of the biggest matchup swings of that
Speaker 2: series was Michael Porter Junior outplayed Ruy to such a
Speaker 2: dramatic extent it was impossible to overcome. Like I actually
Speaker 2: thought because Jamal Murray was so bad. I actually other
Speaker 2: than the two shots I actually thought, Lebron and Ad
Speaker 2: outplayed Yokitchen Murray. Now, I would say it was closer
Speaker 2: to even just because those two Murray shots, Like, say
Speaker 2: what you want about Jamal, those two shots he hit
Speaker 2: were just unbelievable shots. But Lebron and Ad did their
Speaker 2: part to make that series a real series, and the
Speaker 2: other guys got their ass kick because guess what, the
Speaker 2: other guys are better. If you told me going into
Speaker 2: that series, who do you like? Do you like KCP
Speaker 2: Aaron Gordon and Michael Porter Junior or Austin Reeves, D'Angelo, Russell,
Speaker 2: Ruycha Mura. Who you take it, Nuggets. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: not rocket it's not rockets here, it's it's not rocket science.
Speaker 2: But anyway, let's tie this thing off. So I had Uh,
Speaker 2: I had KD at nine. My reasoning for having Kad
Speaker 2: over Steph is when Steph is actually playing like Steph.
Speaker 2: I'm a big believer in Steph's overall offensive impact, and
Speaker 2: I would have him over. It's just the theoretical element
Speaker 2: element I was discussing. KD has been playing much better
Speaker 2: basketball as of late, and that to me just kind
Speaker 2: of makes him a little bit of a safer bet
Speaker 2: heading into this particular season. As I talked about I
Speaker 2: had Steph at ten and Joel at eleven, Carson, I'm
Speaker 2: assuming you had who did you have at ten? Step
Speaker 2: That's right, Steph, And then you had at eleven Kevin
Speaker 2: Durant correct so, and then I want to come back
Speaker 2: to Kevin rand at eleven really quick before we're done, Logan,
Speaker 2: who did you have a ten?
Speaker 1: That has a lot to do with what Carson was saying,
Speaker 1: basically about shouldering load of the number one EMBIID is
Speaker 1: one of the most frustrating guys uh to watch. In
Speaker 1: my opinion, the flopping is one part of it, but
Speaker 1: it's also like the stagnation of the offense is more
Speaker 1: important to me. I just think that if Embiid committed
Speaker 1: more to doing little stuff like Jokic and again this
Speaker 1: is a pipe dream, but like like little stuff like
Speaker 1: dribble handoffs, like setting more screens, getting more guys involved.
Speaker 4: So much of the Philadelphia offense devolves.
Speaker 2: Into get in shape and run the floor.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great idea, you know.
Speaker 1: So much of it devolves into an embid face up
Speaker 1: touch at the elbow and embid post up touch. And
Speaker 1: these are efficient looks, don't get me wrong, right, and
Speaker 1: Beat's one of the best scores in basketball.
Speaker 4: But the offense grinds to a standstill. There's no flow.
Speaker 1: Other guys aren't getting involved, like there's That's one of
Speaker 1: those frustrating things to me when I'm just playing basketball,
Speaker 1: and obviously I'm not playing I'm playing at the you know,
Speaker 1: my local gym. When nobody's moving. That's it's not aesthetically pleasing.
Speaker 1: It's not good basketball. It's not good And a lot
Speaker 1: of that happens with Embiid the regression in the playoffs,
Speaker 1: like we've mentioned, but it ultimately does come down to injuries,
Speaker 1: and Bid has been injured every single season of his career.
Speaker 1: But I can't leave him with my injury concerns. With KD,
Speaker 1: with Kawhi, with Jimmy. I think Embiid can shoulder a
Speaker 1: number one load better than those guys, while I have
Speaker 1: injury concerns about all of them. And so I know
Speaker 1: Embiid would frustrate me if I drafted him, but I
Speaker 1: would be comfortable just crossing my fingers and hoping that
Speaker 1: he can play sixty games for me and we can win,
Speaker 1: you know, ninety percent of those games.
Speaker 2: I think that that, like fun to play with element
Speaker 2: is kind of under discussed. Carson, you mentioned this earlier
Speaker 2: when we were talking about Luca and how like sometimes
Speaker 2: it can be an ugly watch, and it's true, like
Speaker 2: I wish, I wish it was possible for us to say, like, hey,
Speaker 2: Luca is the second best player in the world, We're
Speaker 2: huge fans of Luca and what he does, and blah
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, you know, so on and so forth,
Speaker 2: but also be like it's ugly to watch sometimes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like the heliocentric go stand in the corner, will set
Speaker 2: a high ball screen and then repeat, rinse, repeat, and
Speaker 2: every single possession involves maybe three passes at tops, sometimes
Speaker 2: even one or two. Like that. It is not necessarily
Speaker 2: esthetically appealing. It is not necessarily the most fun basketball
Speaker 2: to play. No, you know what I mean. I do
Speaker 2: think that that's worth bringing up. And I think that's
Speaker 2: part of the story with embeat as well. So our
Speaker 2: last bit before we get out of move on, Yeah,
Speaker 2: go ahead, because sure, I do think.
Speaker 3: He's really really interesting when we're talking about these conversations
Speaker 3: and we have all these factors like starting a team
Speaker 3: from scratch, factoring and.
Speaker 2: Health, all that.
Speaker 3: The one thing I do want to say as an
Speaker 3: Umbead critic over the years, the reason that I do
Speaker 3: have him higher than you guys, I mean, just to
Speaker 3: put into perspective what we saw this year where I
Speaker 3: think we can all agree like it was still a
Speaker 3: flawed embiad performance. He wasn't as consistent as we would want.
Speaker 3: He wasn't good down the stretch of games. The playmaking
Speaker 3: was better, and that is one reason that I'm encouraged
Speaker 3: with EMBID, but still, I mean, over four turnovers a game,
Speaker 3: some really rough stretches in that respect, and he's hurt.
Speaker 3: We look at all of that, and still he gives
Speaker 3: you thirty three ten and six on, fifty nine percent
Speaker 3: for shooting, and is plus fifty eight on off. His
Speaker 3: team was fifty eight points per hunder possessions better with
Speaker 3: him on the floor. Like I do think there is
Speaker 3: just a level of ability with him that is so
Speaker 3: absurd that even when we can talk about all his
Speaker 3: flaws and his regression and all of those things are real,
Speaker 3: and there are people who try to pretend that they're not,
Speaker 3: and those people are not telling the truth like he
Speaker 3: is not. He has never been the playoff performer that
Speaker 3: he is regular season he hasn't really been that close.
Speaker 3: But this year was progress, and again like that production
Speaker 3: is overwhelming. There are very very few players who could
Speaker 3: approach that. And we still agree that he can play
Speaker 3: much better, that there's area that he can clean up
Speaker 3: on that. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him
Speaker 3: to be at least marginally better in and he was
Speaker 3: coming off a tornamentiscus. That's all I'm gonna say.
Speaker 1: I mean, he gave you fifty points on basically seventy
Speaker 1: percent health in a hellish environment in the playoffs. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: when he's out there, like he's one of the most
Speaker 1: effective guys on the planet.
Speaker 2: It's just the one other thing I'll throw in there.
Speaker 2: And there's obviously context to this. And by the way,
Speaker 2: I agree with you guys, as I said, em Beat
Speaker 2: is the one guy that has that like ass kicker potential,
Speaker 2: like he could just go on a crazy run. But like, uh,
Speaker 2: I feel like any of those top dudes like Jokich, Luca,
Speaker 2: the guys that we want to compare and be to,
Speaker 2: they find a way to beat the Knicks. They find
Speaker 2: a way to be Here's what.
Speaker 3: I'm saying, they're injured. None of us haven't beat. With
Speaker 3: those guys, I have n't beat at six, that's the
Speaker 3: highest Logan has him ten you have him a leg Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think we're having a different conversation, Like there are
Speaker 3: people having the conversation of him versus Luca, Jannis, jokicch
Speaker 3: who I think all clearly have done more in the postseason,
Speaker 3: don't have nearly the comparable red flags like they're all
Speaker 3: clear of him. My point is when it comes to
Speaker 3: him versus the seven through ten tier. That's where I
Speaker 3: would just bank on his ability that puts him in
Speaker 3: the conversation with the top four for other people and
Speaker 3: in the regular season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a good case. I think all
Speaker 2: of you guys would makee good cases. And that's the
Speaker 2: point is, like all this stuff is so subjective. I
Speaker 2: think five through eleven is such a toss up on
Speaker 2: this list, And like, what I really wanted to just
Speaker 2: hear is your guys' basketball cases for it. You've done
Speaker 2: a really nice job. We're gonna do one last quick
Speaker 2: round robin here and then we're gonna get out of here.
Speaker 2: Stay about a minute each. We'll start with you, Carson.
Speaker 2: Why do you have Katie at eleven? You both have
Speaker 2: Katie at eleven, so give you a reason.
Speaker 3: So I touched on it a little earlier in direct
Speaker 3: comparison to Steph. I do think that Steph is just
Speaker 3: a more transformative offensive engine because of the playmaking, because
Speaker 3: of the constant off ball stress and the shooting. Katie
Speaker 3: is a really good offensive player. I do think we've
Speaker 3: seen him just a bit over the last couple of postseasons,
Speaker 3: impacted by the lack of pressure. I thought that twenty
Speaker 3: twenty three was an up and down playoff run from
Speaker 3: him this past year. I get it, the scoring efficiency
Speaker 3: looks really good. I thought that he was really guarded
Speaker 3: pretty effectively. I mean, he just had some incredible over
Speaker 3: the top shot making the light you can't take away.
Speaker 3: But I mean Gobert was switching on to him really effectively.
Speaker 3: He wasn't creating for others and he is in a
Speaker 3: much much better offensive situation than Steph and I don't
Speaker 3: think his two way impact is enough to offset that,
Speaker 3: even though I do think that he's an above average defenders,
Speaker 3: So it's just the playmaking impact not being quite comparable.
Speaker 3: And he's obviously still an amazing scorer. But when people
Speaker 3: want to say he's the best score on the planet,
Speaker 3: I can't quite agree with that because he's not the
Speaker 3: same athlete that he was even a few years ago.
Speaker 3: And I think we have seen that. I mean, I
Speaker 3: think to the Nugget series, right, Aaron Gordon guarded him
Speaker 3: really well. Of course, the Celtics series in Brooklyn was
Speaker 3: his low point. I think he's clearly bounced back. He's
Speaker 3: played much better since then. But like those really big
Speaker 3: athletic wings who can stay in front of him, be
Speaker 3: physical with him, just give him more trouble than anybody
Speaker 3: could for prime KD.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't have a ton to add on that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I do think he has a two way
Speaker 1: advantage over Steph. He's improved as a playmaker as he's
Speaker 1: gotten older, He's still not an elite playmaker, and that
Speaker 1: lack of rim pressure and well also athleticism really does
Speaker 1: matter to me With KD. He's really really good, but
Speaker 1: when I also have injury concerns when with him and
Speaker 1: some other guys that are off my list, I just
Speaker 1: think Embiid has the higher ceiling to propel me through
Speaker 1: if I needed a top dog, so to speak.
Speaker 4: But again, not to.
Speaker 1: Beat a dead horse here, Helmt, I'd hear an argument
Speaker 1: if somebody wanted to argue KD up at five. I mean,
Speaker 1: the margins are so so slim outside of the top four.
Speaker 3: Health is also a very good point though, Logan, because
Speaker 3: this is the only year that he's been healthy since
Speaker 3: he tore his achilles, like with any sort of consistency.
Speaker 2: One thing I'll give him some grace there is the
Speaker 2: injuries that he suffered have been so fluky, like there
Speaker 2: were two separate instances where someone fell into his knee,
Speaker 2: and then there was that bizarre one where he sprained
Speaker 2: his ankle and warm ups, remember, like his foot slipped
Speaker 2: or whatever. It's not like he's like having wear and
Speaker 2: tear injuries that have been issues. Like it's been kind
Speaker 2: of like like it's been a little bit fluky, and
Speaker 2: then last year he avoided those like flukey injuries and
Speaker 2: suddenly he plays seventy when he plays seventy five games
Speaker 2: or something like that. The one thing that's been weird
Speaker 2: with KD for me is like he's always been kind
Speaker 2: of known as one of the best one on one
Speaker 2: players in the league, and I still think he is.
Speaker 2: I thought that the Stephan Lebron both deferring to him
Speaker 2: in that big possession against Serbia just as like, and
Speaker 2: then him just hitting that nasty left or right crossover
Speaker 2: into the jumper. Like he still can't do much better,
Speaker 2: but in the large sample, he did not have a
Speaker 2: good one on one season last year. When he was
Speaker 2: coming off of screens, he was so deadly, And a
Speaker 2: big part of that is because such a gifted passer
Speaker 2: can see over the top in a way that a
Speaker 2: lot of playmakers can't, Like what that's been one of
Speaker 2: the coolest things to see develop about Kd's game since
Speaker 2: his achilles ruptured has been like pretty much starting in Brooklyn,
Speaker 2: like him identifying like, Oh, all I have to do
Speaker 2: is call for a ball screen, They're probably gonna show
Speaker 2: high and I'm gonna get a four on three on
Speaker 2: most of these possessions. And he's consistently been one of
Speaker 2: the best pick and role players in the league as
Speaker 2: a result of that kind of development in his game.
Speaker 2: But ironically, like his post up and ISO game has
Speaker 2: been on the decline in large part because he's just
Speaker 2: like you said, Carson, Like he teams can put a
Speaker 2: really big forward on him now and at least force
Speaker 2: him to take contested jump shots. Does not get to
Speaker 2: the rim at this point in his career at all whatsoever,
Speaker 2: really so, But at the same time, he's really picky,
Speaker 2: so he's very efficient when he does get there, it's
Speaker 2: just as rare for him to go, So all that
Speaker 2: stuff is legitimate. The reason why I had him over
Speaker 2: Embiid is like, I still think he's a pretty damn
Speaker 2: safe foundational piece for a franchise in the sense that,
Speaker 2: like he's super easy to plug and play into any
Speaker 2: offensive system. He can use him in a bunch of
Speaker 2: different ways defensively, Like he's an excellent switch defender, he's
Speaker 2: an excellent lowman, he's an excellent defensive rebounder. Like he's
Speaker 2: got all of these different traits that he brings to
Speaker 2: the table there. So like, if I'm building a basketball
Speaker 2: team from scratch, I still can't do a whole lot
Speaker 2: better than Kevin Durant. But I but I had him
Speaker 2: at I had him at ten, or excuse me at nine,
Speaker 2: with Steph at ten, and then Embiid at number eleven.
Speaker 2: But I appreciate you guys taking the time to come
Speaker 2: humor me with this, with this format. I know, it's
Speaker 2: like it's so funny, these player rankings lists. There's no
Speaker 2: way to do them without causing loopholes and everything is
Speaker 2: kind of unrealistic. Like I talk about this all the
Speaker 2: time on the show, like, oh, in a vacuum, Like
Speaker 2: game starts tomorrow, that's great. That's never how you win
Speaker 2: the trophy though, Like that's not like you don't get
Speaker 2: to you don't get to play one game tomorrow win
Speaker 2: the trophy. Okay, playoff series that starts tomorrow, Well that's
Speaker 2: not how you do it either. Playoff run that starts tomorrow, Well,
Speaker 2: that's not how you do it either. Like you the
Speaker 2: way you get the Larry O. B starts in October
Speaker 2: and it and it's a grind and and you've got
Speaker 2: to be playing the best basketball at the right time.
Speaker 2: You've got to there's a leadership element keeping your team
Speaker 2: engaged throughout the regular season. And like, there's so many
Speaker 2: different elements to it, and it's complicated, and I tried
Speaker 2: to kind of set that up as the criteria this year,
Speaker 2: and you guys brought a lot of solid points and
Speaker 2: arguments really quickly. Before we get out of here, why
Speaker 2: don't you guys tell us what you're working on over
Speaker 2: at nerd Set.
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, thank you for having us. This
Speaker 3: was a ton of fun and it's excellent to scratch
Speaker 3: the basketball. It's because we have been a little NFL
Speaker 3: focused as of late, because we cover that as well.
Speaker 3: So if you guys want to see all of our
Speaker 3: NBA stuff, all of our NFL stuff, We do a
Speaker 3: bunch of trivia as well. We did trivia with Jason
Speaker 3: just the other week and Yovan Buja we did some
Speaker 3: Lakers trivia, so that's all on our YouTube channel. Just
Speaker 3: look up nerd Session. We've got all that, and we've
Speaker 3: also got some historical NBA content, some video essays that
Speaker 3: we put out with film as well on YouTube.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've been doing amazing work on the film side
Speaker 2: of things too, and I think there's a I think
Speaker 2: there's a a kind of an area of opportunity for
Speaker 2: that on YouTube, truly educational video content, and you guys
Speaker 2: do a really nice job with that. Make sure you
Speaker 2: guys head over to nerd Sash check it out. Schedule
Speaker 2: for the rest of this week really quickly. On Wednesday,
Speaker 2: we'll be going doing the Bragging Rights list. So I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna hit like the top like four or five
Speaker 2: guys in the league truly based on what they accomplished
Speaker 2: last year. Kind of just an opportunity to pay some
Speaker 2: respects to those guys for what they accomplished. Then we
Speaker 2: have something on a Friday, I believe surrounding the GM survey.
Speaker 2: And then starting next week we are getting into season previews.
Speaker 2: We're gonna start breaking down teams little by little. We'll
Speaker 2: do that power ranking style like we did last year.
Speaker 2: As always, we appreciate you guys for supporting the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming to hang out, don't forget to support
Speaker 2: the Nerd Sash guys, and we'll see you guys on
Speaker 2: Wednesday the volume What's Up guys. As always, I appreciate
Speaker 2: you for listening to and supporting OOPS tonight. It would
Speaker 2: actually be really helpful for us if you guys would
Speaker 2: take a second and leave a rating and a review.
Speaker 2: As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if
Speaker 2: you could take a minute to do that, I'd really
Speaker 2: appreciate it.