1 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 2 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 3 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Enjoy the episode. Joe Henry is likely one of the 7 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: best living singer songwriters that you've never heard of. But 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: even if you don't recognize his name, you've probably heard 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: his work. He's been at it for thirty four years, 10 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: having released fifteen solo albums on three Grammys, and produced 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: music for the likes of Elvis Costello, made his staples 12 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: Bonnie Rait and his sister in law Madonna. Yeah that Madonna. 13 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: During her cowgirl phase in the early two thousands, she 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: turned Joe's song Stop into her hit Don't Tell Me. 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: Joe Henry's latest studio album, his fifteenth, The Gospel according 16 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: to Water, was released in November, almost exactly a year 17 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: after he was diagnosed with stage four prostate cancer. In 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: this interview with Bruce Headlam, Joe talks about the artist 19 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: who gave him strength after his diagnosis, and also about 20 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: working with Elvis Costello. In the late great New Orleans 21 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: legend Alan Tucson, just weeks after Katrina. This is broken 22 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmonds. 23 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: Here's Bruce Headlam and Joe Henry from Pasadena, California. Joe 24 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: starts things off by playing something from his new album, 25 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: a song called the Fact of Love. Thank you for coming, 26 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: thank you for having me. And that was a song 27 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: from your new album, which we want to talk about. 28 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: But by way of introduction, longtime singer writer, probably one 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: of the best songwriters of the last one thousand years 30 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: or so, So tell me about that song first, the 31 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: Fact of Love. It's called it was the last thing 32 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: I wrote before recording the new album. When I recorded 33 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: this new record, I did not know I was making 34 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: a record. I needed to record some demos. I had 35 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 1: this rush of new songs. I'd never had a batch 36 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: of songs appear so quickly, to the point where I'd 37 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: not even made iPhone demos, you know, to keep track 38 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: of the basic architecture. And I can't read or write music. 39 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: So when I learned something it's no I wish I had. 40 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: I wish I had How do you write the lyrics down? 41 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: And then I just think that if I go back 42 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: to them, the music will be embedded, and mostly it is. 43 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: Once in a while something slips away, which is why 44 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: I try to get into the habit of making a 45 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: really just rough phone recording of something when it's brand new. 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: But these songs came in such a flurry that I 47 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: would have a new song and think, oh, I should 48 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 1: just quickly sketch this out, and then another song would 49 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: begin to appear, and I think, oh, I better pay 50 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: attention to this one, and then I just do both 51 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: of them. Well, pretty soon I had ten or eleven 52 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: songs that had no reference at all other than lyrics 53 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: written on a page, and I thought, I really need 54 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 1: to document this in some way so I don't forget them, 55 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: and also so that I can stand back and evaluate 56 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: them in some way, which you can't just do as 57 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: readily when you're performing them to hear them. So I 58 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: went to an old friend's studio downtown and just blew 59 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: through everything with a few friends. Didn't even listen to 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: playbacks of much of it, just trying to get them down. 61 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: And I got home with them and realized that something 62 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: more had happened. But also say that the songs came 63 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: in such a rush, Bruce that at one point I 64 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: just wanted them to stop, which is not a common 65 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: thing for a songwriter to think aspiring songwriters, Oh, they 66 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: just showed upday, somebody just on the front law. Sometimes 67 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: they grow up like dandelions overnight, you'd be amazed. But 68 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: I really needed to get them in hand. I really 69 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: wanted to play through them enough to get fluid with them. 70 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: And it's a really different engagement for me to be 71 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: practicing finished songs than writing songs. Maybe two days before 72 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: these sessions that we're supposed to be demos, my wife 73 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: was finishing a piece of sculpture. She's a visual artist, 74 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: and I said, I was walking past and I said, 75 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: there's a piece of unearthed stone that looked like a 76 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: torso and she was painting on top of it. And 77 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: I said, what do you call that? And she said, UM, 78 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: it's called the fact of Love. And I remember just going, fuck, 79 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: I hear it sounds spring loaded. I know that if 80 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: I pay attention to this for a moment, that there's 81 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: a song there and there, and very quickly, And once 82 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: I finished that one, I kind of thought, Okay, that's 83 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: that feels like a pretty complete bracket when I think 84 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: about what the earliest of these songs is, and I 85 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: really realized that that needed to happen, and then I 86 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: could step away from that part of the process. Was 87 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: your wife happy you took the title for I think 88 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: she was. I didn't change the name of it to 89 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: my pending divorced I think she was really pleased. Um. 90 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: You know, I find a lot of songwriting begins that way. 91 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: For me, A phrase, an image, a word that I 92 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: don't know how it was to describe it, except that 93 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: it is spring loaded. And I have this sensation that, 94 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: very much like opening a bottle of champagne, you sort 95 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: of get one time for the cork to really pop, 96 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: and if you're not prepared to deal with with that, 97 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 1: you don't. You don't engage that because it'll go flat. 98 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: Did that that opening phrase and some of the guitar work, 99 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: did that come with the initial song or those things 100 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: you put on later? Or was at on a separate 101 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: track somewhere? How did that Does it come together? As 102 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: it happens differently all the time, Bruce, But in the 103 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: case of that song, I'd heard that title late in 104 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: the evening. The next morning, I was up very early 105 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: it was still dark, and I picked up a notebook 106 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: and I just remember kind of writing essentially those three 107 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: verses in chorus. Just wrote it down like I was 108 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: taking dictation. A lot of the records sort of appeared 109 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: this way, and for whatever reason, and this is not 110 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: common necessarily, I walked through the room. I have a 111 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: lot of guitars laying around, and picked one up, put 112 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: the capo on the fourth fret as if I knew 113 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: that that's where it lived melodically as a key. I 114 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: didn't know that. I had no reason to think it 115 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: was in F sharp. I just put the capo there 116 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: for some unknown reason, and just put the guitar my 117 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: lapp and played that opening motif. I didn't think about it. 118 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: I just reached and it was sort of there. I'm 119 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: making this aw sound very mystical because it is. I'm 120 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: not being evasive. It's just the way that it happens. 121 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: You know, there's a there's an inherent quality to music, 122 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: as there is to living, that is inherently mysterious. And 123 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: I do think, and I've said it in other moments, 124 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: our job is never to dispel mystery. Our job is 125 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: to abide mystery and stand with it, be an alliance 126 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,679 Speaker 1: with it, because there's a big part about living that's 127 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: just inherently mysterious, always has been, always shall be. And 128 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: the sooner we make peace with the fact that there 129 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: is something else at play that we do not control, 130 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: I think the more we can sort of be in 131 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: collaboration with whatever life is asking. You know, I think 132 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: back to Joseph Campbell when he said, you have to 133 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: let go of the life you imagine so you can 134 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: have the one that's actually waiting for you. And there's 135 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: a certain kind of surrender that I think is essential 136 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: to almost all productive living, but creative life in particular. 137 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: You know, you just sort of have to surrender into process. 138 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: And I don't mean surrender as in resignation. I mean 139 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: surrender as in radical acceptance. Speaking of resignation radical acceptance, 140 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: you had a tough year and a half. Do you 141 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: want to explain a little bit of that? Sure? A 142 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: year ago Thanksgiving? So you know, what is that fourteen 143 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: months ago something like that, I got a diagnosis of 144 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: stage four prostate cancer. And when I got that phone call, 145 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: and it really was like a movie, you know, picking 146 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: up the phone very innocently one day, you know, I 147 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: felt like Bob Newhart, Hello, and there it was. You know, 148 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: It's like somebody opened a door onto a cyclone and 149 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: my family and I all stepped into it. I was 150 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: not prepared, even though I'd been in some i'd head 151 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: back pain for well over a year. I had been 152 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: misdiagnosed three times. And I also, you know, I'm a 153 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: touring musician in my late fifties, and I was in 154 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: a really serious car crash when I was a teen. 155 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: So back pain is something I've just sort of learned 156 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: to live with. It's not intense, but it's present. It 157 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: has been enough often enough that it was easy for 158 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: me to think, I've just come off the biggest touring 159 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: cycle of my entire working life. And I don't know 160 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: any musician in their late fifties to tours who doesn't 161 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: have back issues. It was easy to just sort of 162 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: accept that it was no significant thing until it was. 163 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: And next thing I know, there's somebody. I'm sitting in 164 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: front of a doctor who very irresponse, irresponsibly I've I've 165 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: learned he had very little to go on, just sort 166 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: of blurted out to my wife and I that he 167 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: thought I had like three to seven months to live, 168 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, And I lived with that as a new truth, 169 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, for a full week until I met my 170 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: oncologist that I worked with at UCLA, who assured me 171 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: that's not, in fact what I was forced to accept, 172 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: you know. He said, I look at you know, I 173 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: look at your whole life, not just this diagnosis. And 174 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: you know, I think of this as as chronic disease management. 175 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: It's not a terminal diagnosis. We help a lot of 176 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: people like you. But I really did live through, you know, 177 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: a week of real terror. The terror didn't end there. 178 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: It changed shape, became a little bit more stealth, but 179 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: I still had a you know, a pretty rough go 180 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: and even though I responded to treatment almost immediately, I 181 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: mean almost immediately, I was out of pain physically, but 182 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: the psychic specter of that shadow is something real, and 183 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: it changed me, you know. I mean it's kind of 184 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: supposed to. What did it do to your songwriting? During 185 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: that time, I was writing with a new urgency. I've 186 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: always written a lot. I try to be writing all 187 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: the time. Does mean that I always finish a lot 188 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: of things. But at the time when I was first 189 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: diagnosed and my wife Melanie was encouraging me to maybe 190 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: seek out a support group. There's a lot of good 191 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: ones around. They help a lot of people. And I said, look, 192 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that I won't get there eventually, but 193 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: that's not how I process things. I don't see that 194 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: as my path right now. I'm going to have to 195 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: write my way through this, because writing is how I 196 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: sort of process anything of significance in my life. And 197 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: I realized that the way that fear and sadness had 198 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: put a cap on my imagination, every time I could 199 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: get something going, whether it was a palm or a song, 200 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: that my imagination re engaged, I could see beyond what 201 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: felt like an immediate and restricting way of thinking, and 202 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, sort of psychically, the doors and 203 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: windows were open again, and I could see beyond, you know, 204 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: just the immediate fear of a moment. And so I 205 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: just kept writing. And I know in retrospect that I 206 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: was writing to live, because that's that reconnected me to 207 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: myself in a way that my diagnosis when it first happened, 208 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: cut me off from who I believed myself truly to be. 209 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: Did it were your days? Though? That that fear just 210 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: closed all that down sure, Oh absolutely. I still have 211 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: days like that where I'm not fit company for anybody. 212 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: There's less of that because I'm in remission. Now. I 213 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 1: feel better than I have felt in a couple of years. Actually, 214 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: last year I felt like I at the beginning of 215 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: the year, I was in a trench, And this year 216 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: kind of feels like it has begun, like I've I've 217 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: been shot out of a cannon. You know, when you 218 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: were in that trench, what music did you listen to? 219 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: A lot of Lewis Armstrong, a lot of Charlie Parker, 220 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: a lot of Robert Johnson. Those were, Um, I've always 221 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: been really important musicians for me, But for for I 222 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: started to say, for whatever reason is if I don't know? Um, well, 223 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: what's the reason that? Because those artists in particular, I 224 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: feel that their humanity is so rawly and viscerally available. 225 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: You know, I hear music that was recorded last month 226 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: and it already sounds like, you know, an artifact, like 227 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: one of those mosquitoes they bring out of the Pyramids, 228 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: trapped an amber. You know, I can see it, but 229 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: it's not alive. For me and time I've listened to 230 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: Robert Johnson and I've been listening to him since I 231 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: was fifteen. He sounds like a living person jumping out 232 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: of a speaker. Charlie Parker does that to me too. 233 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: I can't. It's not background. To me. It is like 234 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: somebody walking into a room, and I am endlessly affirmed 235 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: by the spirit of that music. Not to mention the 236 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: fact that, certainly, in the case of Bird, he was 237 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: in other respects not the most functional adult in the room. 238 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: You know, he was a disturbed and troubled man. Yet 239 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: not in spite of but I think because of he 240 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: puts so much raw beauty into the world, and it 241 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: makes me think a lot about the African American experience 242 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: in particular, where I look back at some of my 243 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: greatest greatest heroes, you know, Lewis Armstrong, Duke Ellington in particular, 244 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: and think about the brutality that experienced and yet their 245 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: response to it was incredible beauty. We'll be right back 246 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: after this break. We're back with more of Bruce's conversation 247 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: with Joe Henry. You know, you describe yourself primarily as 248 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: a sort of a storyteller, and you you reject the 249 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: kind of confessional model of songwriting. I think you've literally said, 250 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: and I have the quote here the greatest misconception of 251 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: American popular music that if you're being honest, you're being entertaining, 252 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: and you tend to tell stories even in your own work, 253 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: even the first and second person, but they're they're obviously 254 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: about characters. Yeah, did that change a little with this album? 255 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: Are there are there elements of this album you feel 256 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: came directly out of your recent experience? Well, there's always 257 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: elements I can recognize after the fact. I don't often 258 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: and don't to be aware of that when I'm writing. Sure, 259 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: I mean, there are things that now look back and 260 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: going to go, well, that's that's really obvious to me, 261 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: why in that moment that's what would appear. But look 262 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: for starters, Bruce. I think that that all artistry, regardless 263 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: of the medium, is storytelling, from the most abstract painting 264 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: to film to you know, I think it's all storytelling. 265 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: It's not all linear narrative, and yet they all seem 266 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: to provoke or want to provoke some sense of narrative 267 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: that we reach for. And I think musically is especially 268 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: potent because it, you know, it's not nailed to the floor, 269 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: you know ingmar Bergmann said, that all art aspires to 270 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: work the way that music works, you know, because it's 271 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: it's there's no defense against it. It appears like weather, 272 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: and it changes the day. And I think, certainly the 273 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: songs that have been most important to me my whole 274 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: listening life, our songs that are specific enough to engage 275 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: me and make me think of that something real is transpiring. 276 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: But they're not so overt as to nail everything to 277 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: the floor. There's not just one way to enter and 278 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: accept this story. I know that as a writer, I'm 279 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: fairly impressionistic. I do think I come out of a 280 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: very particular folk tradition. And when I say folk, I'm 281 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: saying that very broadly. And you know, I mean what 282 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: he got through as a folk singer. So is Joe Strummer, 283 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: you know. So was Bob Marley, you know, so is 284 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: Lewis Armstrong. You know. But it's funny that in only 285 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: just a few years ago I had a brand new 286 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: record out. I'm trying to think which one it was. 287 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: Maybe it was Reverie. Anyway, I had performed the whole 288 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: of it the night before in Los Angeles, and my 289 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: son was in town from Brooklyn. He plays with me frequently, 290 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: and I was sitting out on the front yard under 291 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: a big pine tree the next morning with my wife, Melanie, 292 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: and my son lev On and my wife. You know, 293 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: we've been together. We've been married almost thirty three years. 294 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: We've been together longer than that. And I met her 295 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: when I was sixteen and she was fifteen. She said, 296 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: it finally dawned on me. I don't know why it 297 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: took me so long that you were a Southern writer. 298 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: You know. I mean, I'm from North Carolina. Originally, I 299 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: didn't really come of age there, but it is part 300 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: of my DNA. Both my parents are natives in North Carolina. 301 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: And she said, all the you know, your door, wealthy 302 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: Flannery O'Connor all makes sense to me now in a 303 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: way that it didn't before. I don't know what it 304 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: was about that batch of songs, that performance that allowed 305 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: her to hear me as coming out of a tradition 306 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:53,479 Speaker 1: of Southern writers. Were your parents Southerners? They are still are, 307 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: They're still with us, and they still they moved back 308 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: to North Carolina, you know, we moved around a lot 309 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: when I was young. My father was an executive engineer 310 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: for Chevrolet, and not true anymore. But back in the day, 311 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 1: if you were a lifer in that racket, you know, 312 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: all roads led to Detroit. So we moved to Detroit 313 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: area just as I was beginning high school the summer 314 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: before my tenth grade year, so that would have been 315 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: summer of seventy five, and my wife, Melanie, her family 316 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: lived there and we went to the same high school. 317 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: I met her there. I was friends with two of 318 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: her older sisters before I met her. But I feel 319 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: like I came of age, you know, among the Great Lakes. 320 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: But I do know that in my core, I am 321 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: a Southerner, even though I spent a lot of my 322 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: early life trying to distance myself from that legacy, because 323 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: what I thought about the South as a young person 324 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: was not something I was proud of. Your parents were 325 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: also devout where they they are. My parents are Southern Methodists. 326 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: Oh was out right, So I was, you know, I 327 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: went to church as a young person, just like I 328 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: went to school, which means if I wasn't sick, that's 329 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: where I went until I was, you know, fifteen, and 330 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: my older brother David was seventeen. We were very close 331 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: and at that point of our lives, we were staying 332 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: up you know, terribly late of a Saturday night listening 333 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: to music and such. And it was one Sunday. My 334 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: mother came and tried to rouse this out, and we 335 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: were not sprightly, and she said, well, I'm not going 336 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: to force you to go, and I said you're not. 337 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,479 Speaker 1: She said, you're fifteen. You have to make your own 338 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: decisions about this, and then I didn't. I didn't return. 339 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: I want you to play another song, but first I 340 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: do have a bone to pick with you at which 341 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: is I think maybe the first song I ever heard 342 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 1: of yours was the Ohio Plane Crash. And I mean 343 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: that song I just thought was incredible. It captured experience 344 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: so beautifully because when I was a kid, I saw 345 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: a plane crash on an air show on Lake Ontario. 346 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: And then I found out years later you made the 347 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: whole thing up I did. Isn't it better that I 348 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: did it? Maybe? Well you either either that or I 349 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: now can only remember that experience yea through your song. 350 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: But your song is about a kid, right because they're 351 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: la dangling. You know what that song was about? For me? 352 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: If I throw my mind back, there was the idea 353 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: and it's in some ways it's it hinges on a 354 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: concept that I learned from again I'm talking about I'll 355 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,719 Speaker 1: talk a lot about short story writers. They've been as 356 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: impactful to me as songwriters. Um, it's something I learned 357 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: from both Raymond Carver and Alice Monroe. And I just 358 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: talk endlessly about Alice Monroe. I love her. But this 359 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: concept of telling a dramatic story and decidedly undramatic language, 360 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: and the idea of the Ohio Airshow plane crash was 361 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: that with this tragedy as a backdrop, there is an 362 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: estranged couple sort of you know, living within each other's proximity, 363 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: not necessarily comfortably in in a shared moment. And so 364 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: I thought the idea of staging this kind of bland 365 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: disconnect between two lovers while as a backdrop this plane crashes. 366 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: You know, the plane crash is not the story. The 367 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: couple's estrangement is the story. The character speaking has is 368 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: a strange from his lover, and he's at this gathering, 369 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: this you know, holiday, this air show and sees his 370 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: ex in the in the crowd, and he's and he's 371 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: sort of reflecting on you know, not you know, that 372 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,479 Speaker 1: odd magnetic poll or maybe the opposite side of a magnet. 373 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: That is that you still feel that that there's energy happening, 374 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: but it's repelling. It's repellent. It's not you know, connecting. 375 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: Could you play another song for us? And then, well, 376 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: I can. I played you the last song that I 377 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,479 Speaker 1: wrote for the new record. I'm going to play you 378 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: the earliest of them, all right. My wife and I 379 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: were last fall for two months on the west coast 380 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: of Ireland. I was invited to do a writing residency 381 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: at a small art college. I was starting to have 382 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,959 Speaker 1: real pain episodes then. I don't mean to lean too 383 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: heavily into that. It just was a It was a 384 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: specter of what was happening, even though I didn't I 385 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: didn't know what weight to give it. But I only 386 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: bring it up now because I hear this song now 387 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: completely sharing the same language of the songs that followed 388 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: after I knew what was going on, and I just 389 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: think I feel like, in some way, you know, my 390 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: body knew the songs, knew something before I consciously knew something. 391 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? You should have gone to 392 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: the doctor and said, listen to this. Yeah, yeah, this 393 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: is called mule. Based on our conversation. I don't want 394 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: you to overinterpret your own work. But I would like 395 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: to know where the line silence deepest sound came from. Well, 396 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: in this little village where we were on the west 397 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: coast of Ireland called bally Vaughan, it just became really 398 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: evident to me two things while I was there. The 399 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: silence that I heard there was unlike how I thought 400 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: to characterize silence. You know, it is not just the 401 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: void of sound. Silence itself has a character. And I 402 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: was really aware that the silence I was hearing was 403 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: not fragile. It couldn't be just defeated by a random sound, 404 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: a random sound, a cow, a truck, a train. You know, 405 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: nothing ended the silence. It just punctuated it. It let 406 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: me know something about its character, its depth. But I 407 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: realized that there was a silence there that was part 408 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: of the landscape, part of the culture. It also makes 409 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: me think of your own recording style. You've produced a 410 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: lot of records. You can't you record very quickly. You 411 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: tend to do it with people sitting in a room 412 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: playing this the sound bleeds. Why do you like that sound? 413 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 1: Because it's human? You know, if people were sitting in 414 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: this room playing music together, there's a you know, the 415 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: sort of a vendette diagram where things overlap, and if 416 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: you're sitting here, you read it very naturally that, you know, 417 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: the harmonic overtones of an instrument bleed into those of another. 418 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: But when people in so called modern recording world, you know, 419 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: this idea of isolating everything, and then when you're mixing 420 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: trying to use reverbs and delays and such to recreate 421 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: an atmosphere that was very naturally and more compellingly actually 422 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: in the room if you knew how to take that picture. 423 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: I just find that endlessly and chanting. I don't know why. 424 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 1: I know that on the records that I've made and 425 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: a lot of older records that I love. You know, 426 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: a lot of what the drums sound like is how 427 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: they're hitting the piano mic across the room, and that 428 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: describes space. You know, you hear people playing a room together, 429 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: you hear the size of the room. You know, the 430 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: difference between them playing in a like a gymnasium sized 431 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: studio and in a living room. You know, when sound 432 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: finds limits of walls and ceiling, you know, you it's 433 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: describing space. I'd like to be able to picture where 434 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: people are. Place matters and I can vividly imagine where 435 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: this is taking place. You know, those records where some 436 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: of the energy is understood because of the limitation of 437 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: the room, how instruments are colliding. I think about a 438 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: record called Money Jungle that Duke Ellington made in the 439 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: early seventies with Max Roach and Charles Mingus, and it's 440 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: an intense record. You know, these upstarts of Mingus and 441 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: Max Roach, you know playing, you know with this grand gentleman. 442 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: He was the wildest of them. Duke was the most 443 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: adventurous of all of them. But you can really hear 444 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: their sound hit each other and hit the walls. You 445 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: can feel natural compression of the space. And I like 446 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: being able to picture them on top of each other 447 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: up close, which they had to have been for that 448 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: sound to be created. Before we started, I mentioned to 449 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: you that one of my favorite pieces that you produced 450 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: was Ann Peebles covering Bob Dylan's Tonight I'll be staying 451 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: here with you from a great, great record you made. 452 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: Thank you. You're great players, and your Billy Preston and 453 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: Alan Toussant and all kinds of people. You said, she 454 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: she wasn't she didn't hear that song, How did you 455 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,959 Speaker 1: how did you make that song hers? Or how did 456 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: how did you help her make that song? Hers? I well, 457 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: as I recall, I sent it to her and she 458 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: was a bit unmoved. Not that she didn't like the song, 459 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: she just didn't necessarily hear it in the context of 460 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: the project as I had pitched it. And I just said, 461 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: I think you're maybe stumbling on the production or Bob's voice, 462 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: like you think, oh, that's a country song, but you know, 463 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: country music, soul music structurally shares so many of the 464 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: same so much of the same vocabulary, And all I 465 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: had to do really was to ask and to think 466 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: of it as a soul song. I said, just try 467 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: singing through it, you know, at the piano or something. 468 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: Just try singing through the song and maybe not worry about, 469 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: you know, the reference recording. And then I think she 470 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: heard it immediately because she sent me a demo of 471 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: just heard a piano player playing through it and it 472 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: was completely gorgeous. Right. I want to just mention two 473 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: producers you've worked with, not even as producers, just just 474 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: to know what you learn from him. The first is 475 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: Alan to Song. What was it like working with him? 476 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: Did he give you You were producing him at that point. Yeah, 477 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: he produced so many Yeah, great great songs. What was 478 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: that like? Oh man, how do I talk about that? 479 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: Alan changed my life? You know, and when he passed, 480 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: my wife saying, well, you'll never have another friendship like 481 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: that one, because he was a you know, he was 482 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: what my southern people referred to as a touched individual. 483 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: You know, he was always an only part way of 484 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: this world. He was always partly of another. He was 485 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: a bit of a supernatural character. And I just seemed 486 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: to when I met him. I just seemed to understand 487 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: that we were maybe a very unlikely duo in some ways. 488 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: But we worked together on many projects over ten years. 489 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: You know, we traveled together. I took him to Germany 490 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: to a festival I was creating, had him play, you know, 491 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: with Michelle and Dago Cello at that festival. And you know, 492 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: when I was producing Aaron Neville, Alan was the piano player. 493 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: We went to a lot together. Even though truth be told, 494 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: that I'm not I don't offer this up with any 495 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: disrespect to Alan's son and daughter, who would you know, 496 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: were his managers, But they and Alan's business partner didn't 497 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: think that what I was asking Alan to do when 498 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: I was producing the Bright Mississippi and American tunes. You 499 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: know that those were not good ideas. They really thought 500 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: he should walk the other way. And I don't know why, 501 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: even with his own choir, they're singing in his ear 502 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 1: saying at I don't know why you're doing this. This 503 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: is not what you should be doing right now. And 504 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: then he would say, yeah, but I'm gonna go with 505 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: him anyway. I don't really understand that. We seem to 506 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: have an unspoken understanding of each other. And I thought 507 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: he was a miraculous man and many any ways. And 508 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: one of the things that inspired me about him was 509 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: as deep as he'd been in it. You know, he 510 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: was already in the rock and roll Hall of Fame 511 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: by the time I met him. Not that that means 512 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: anything in particular other than he was a made man. 513 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: You know, he was already on the mountain that he 514 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: was so willing to be outside of his comfort zone. 515 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: And he was significantly outside of his comfort zone. He 516 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: was very uncomfortable coming into those pair of records. He 517 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: had allowed me, he had invited me to create a 518 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: concept for him and I in the case of Bright Mississippi. 519 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: I picked all the music, I populated the room. I 520 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: gave him these songs to learn as an assignment, you know, 521 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: And I'm still I still marvel at the fact that 522 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: he was willing to go there. You mentioned the little 523 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: piano break he plays behind Anne in It's not I'd 524 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: be staying here with you, And that was something I 525 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: learned from him right away. It was the first thing 526 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: I asked of him on that first day. We had 527 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: cut the tune, and then I had this idea that 528 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: I wanted him to play a piano break after the 529 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: bridge and okay. He sits at the piano and he 530 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: plays through, and I go on the talk back nervously 531 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: and say, would you like to hear that back? And 532 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: he said, I know what happened? What did you think 533 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: of it? And I said, well, I guess you know 534 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: what I think I need to hear it back. He said, okay, 535 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: I'll wait, and I listened back and I said, I 536 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: like it a good bit. Okay, then, but that thing 537 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: of not really owning what I needed, and you know, 538 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: under the guise of oh, you probably want to hear 539 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: that back, and then I'll base my response on how 540 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: I think you feel about what you just did, and 541 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: he was he wouldn't have it. He was sort of 542 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: respectfully insisting that I occupied that chair, and he did 543 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: a few things like that, like the day Mavis was 544 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: there and that was a beautiful reunion between the two 545 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: of them, and he didn't have to do this at all. 546 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: But at one point, maybe Us speaks to him across 547 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: the control room and she was having such a great time. 548 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: She said, Alan, this is so great being here with you. 549 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: And when I make my next record, I'm gonna come 550 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: straight down to New Orleans to you. He said, oh, maybe, 551 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,239 Speaker 1: as that's fine, but when you do, bring him with you, 552 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: because he's the reason we're here. He's the reason this 553 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: is happening. And I thought that was just the most 554 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,239 Speaker 1: generous thing. It was just overwhelming. Yeah, yeah, it just 555 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,479 Speaker 1: seems like and he had to be impeccibly dressed when 556 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: he said he was always always. When we were making 557 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: the The River and Reverse, you know, we jentaled most 558 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: of the work in Los Angeles. But Alan's feeling was, 559 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: if this record is gonna have my name on it, 560 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: this is on maybe like ten weeks after Katrina happened, 561 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: he said, that's the album he did, yeah, Elvis Costella, Yes, 562 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: and Alan said, if this is any way that any 563 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: of this project could be done in New Orleans, I 564 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: want it to be. You know, I don't want to 565 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: just talk about I hope music comes back. I want 566 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: to be part of bringing it back. And at that 567 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: point we weren't even Elvis through it to me and said, 568 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: that's up to you. You're the producer, you know. And 569 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: I said, look, I don't even know if that there's 570 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: drinking water there. I mean there's a war zone. And 571 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: I called at the time my younger brother, his brother 572 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: in law at the time, was a doctor in New Orleans. 573 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 1: So I got in touch with him and said, what's 574 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: the scene down there? I mean, as their food, as 575 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: their safe water. I don't you know the idea that 576 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: we would come down there. I don't want to feel 577 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: like a photo op, which you couldn't have because it 578 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: was Alan's home. He had every reason and every right 579 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: to go want to work there, but I wanted to 580 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: be respectful of the moment at the same time, and 581 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: this doctor that I called said, you know, look, if 582 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: there's any way that you can come and work here, 583 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: you should. People need to see something other than devastation 584 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: happening here. So in the very end, we moved the 585 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: entire camp, you know, for a couple of days down 586 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: down to New Orleans, and that was just remarkable to 587 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: be there with him. And I remember, I bring this 588 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: up because you mentioned the way he was dressed. That 589 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: when I was packing to go down in New Orleans 590 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: late one night after a session, we're leaving the next morning, 591 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: and I was packing the suit and my wife said, 592 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: I don't think you know where you're going, you know, 593 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: and you think you're gonna be wearing a suit. And 594 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: I said, look, if you think Alan's going to step 595 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: it down because of what we're walking into, I think 596 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: you're crazy. And sure enough, when we got down there, 597 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: he was even more regal, you know. He walked down 598 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: there like a you know, like a like a prince 599 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: from Africa. Yeah, I was. I was once on a 600 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: plane with them, and I I never used to dress 601 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: up for planes because I thought, now, you just want 602 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: to be comfortable. I mean, I wasn't one of those 603 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: guys that were like track suit yeah. Yeah, but but 604 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: I was with a plane with him and he was 605 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: he was in line ahead of me, standing Ramrod straight 606 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: in this beautiful suit, and I said, yeah, I've got 607 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: to dial it up. Yeah. Look at him, he looks 608 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: comfortab I don't look comfortable. Yeah. I remember once we 609 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: were in a session somewhere and somebody I don't know 610 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: who would have said it like Alan, you want to 611 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: take your jacket off, be more comfortable, and He's just 612 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: wheeled around and said, what in the world makes you 613 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: think I'm not comfortable? He was so rarely that pointed, 614 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: but it was always wonderful moments when he would just 615 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: be take you to task, like him saying to me, 616 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: I know what happened. What did you think about what happened? 617 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: Do you want to do another song? Sure, I will 618 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: play this song called Orson Wells. We'll be right back 619 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 1: with more from Joe Henry after the break, We're back 620 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: with the rest of Bruce's conversation with Joe Henry. But 621 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: first let's finish the song Orson Wells. Why is it 622 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: called Orson Wells. I don't know, other than just that 623 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: he was the messenger. He was the delivery system of 624 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: this song. You know, I remember distinctly my wife and 625 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: I were flying for the for like thirty six hours 626 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: up to San Francisco to see a really dear friend 627 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: in a play. And we got on the plane at Burbank, 628 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: you know that flights about fifty minutes long. And I 629 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: just do what I frequently do. I just opened a 630 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,760 Speaker 1: notebook and I just sort of watched my handwrite Orson 631 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: Wells at the top of the page, and I don't know. 632 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I knew I wasn't running a song about 633 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: Orson Wells. But for whatever reason, he was an evocative specter, 634 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: and I knew that if I just if I listened, 635 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: he was going to tell me what this song was 636 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: that that was there to be written. Are there really 637 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: great songs? Like is there a great Beatles song that 638 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,439 Speaker 1: has no effect on you? And you just think, yeah, 639 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: whatever reason, doesn't a lot of them? Actually? Well, look, 640 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 1: I like the Beatles, is fine, I really do. I 641 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: like John in particular. I like Georgia. But I the 642 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 1: Beatles didn't do to me in real time what they 643 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: did to most of my peers. You know who did 644 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: that for you? Bob? And I mean that's probably a 645 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: pretty obvious in a way because his records are so 646 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: especially his records are the middle sixties, but not only 647 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: desire to which I think is incredibly underrated. There's a 648 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: rawness to it. You can't miss, you can't miss the 649 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: immediacy of it. You know. I hear the Beatles, and 650 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: they're beautiful records. I mean, I'm not saying they're not 651 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: beautiful records, but you know, I hear them, I hear 652 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: the work, and I'm not as seduced by that as 653 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: I am when I know that I'm witnessing, you know, 654 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: like you're driving late at night and there's all of 655 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: a sudden you you've ever had this experience. I had 656 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 1: it once, driving late at night on a freeway somewhere 657 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: in West Virginia and they're out in the middle of 658 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: a field as a house completely on fire. You know, No, 659 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell wrote a good song of it. Yes, Um, 660 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: it's just the witnessing something that's is immediate and it's urgent. 661 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: What's happening? You know. I listened to just like Tom 662 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: Thumb's Blues or listened to you know, sooner or later 663 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: one of us must know or something like. I can't 664 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,959 Speaker 1: miss that. This was like people just fucking hanging on, 665 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: Like I mean, it's a runaway train in a way, 666 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: and I'm endlessly engaged by that kind of real time 667 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: urgency in a way that I'm not so much when 668 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: I hear careful construction, you know, like when I was, 669 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: you know, really young. I mean Bob happened to me 670 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: when I was about eleven, and other music I was 671 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: hearing at the same time that, like the you know Beatles, 672 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: as an example, I was not, you know, held in 673 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: thrall in the same way to to the labor. I 674 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: heard of that being constructed as I was in witnessing 675 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: a house burning off in a field on the side 676 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:02,800 Speaker 1: of a road. You know what I mean. Does that 677 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: make sense? I'm not trying. You're often compared with Robbie 678 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: robertson m I didn't know that. Who is I think 679 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: that very seriously and I appreciate it. You know. I'm 680 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: a man who named his son Levin. So I would 681 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,359 Speaker 1: have traded and and people think this is a little 682 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: bit of sacrilege, you know, I would have traded the 683 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: entirety of the Beatles catalog to have made music from 684 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: Big Pink, you know. But that's music that is both 685 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: feel spontaneous, but also it's highly polished. Sure, and I 686 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: don't mind if it's constructed. I just don't want to be. 687 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 1: I just don't want to know that it is. I 688 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: don't I don't want to be telegraphed the meticulousness of 689 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: the of the hand at work. I don't want to. 690 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: I don't want to see the hand at work. I 691 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,359 Speaker 1: want the mystery to take over and take me over. Look, 692 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: I'm a Sinatra freak, and those are meticulous records. You know. 693 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: He did like thirty three takes in a row. I've 694 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: got you under my skin. He knew that that was 695 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: a something to be seized. And nonetheless, when I hear it, 696 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: I hear a moment, I hear like you know, the 697 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,919 Speaker 1: house burning, I hear it happening. Sure I know now 698 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: as an more educated person, how that went down. Like 699 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: I said, I just you can still hear it. I 700 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: want to. You know, it's all theater, Bruce. You know 701 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: it's all phony. You know in that regard, you know 702 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: the idea of even people who have this idea of purity. 703 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: It's like, I record live in a room because I hey, 704 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: it's an incredibly financially responsible way to work frequently, and 705 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: it's the most direct line if you want the sound 706 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: if you are playing in a room together then you 707 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: get people in a room together and they play that's 708 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: what you care about. You know. Now you're in the 709 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: middle of this incredible career. You've done all this brilliant music, 710 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: you've you've recordered, all these brilliant people. You're still described 711 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: as you know, the critics darling and all that stuff. 712 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: But you've had You've had the experience with your sister 713 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: in law, who's Madonna. We haven't mentioned that, but she 714 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: took one of your songs and made a big points 715 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,359 Speaker 1: for being this far into an interview without bringing by 716 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,720 Speaker 1: the lay. Well, I bring it up because I actually 717 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: loved that album Hers and I thought before I knew 718 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: it was yours, I thought it was. I think there 719 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: are a lot of good songs on that album, by 720 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: the way. But yeah, you know, critics, Grill Marcus could 721 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: be very hard on people for not seizing the biggest 722 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 1: possible stage. You know, he said that about Randy Newman. 723 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: You know, you've got to go out and prove it. 724 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: The proving ground is sixty thousand people in the stadium 725 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: who all sang along. Well, you've had that experience. What's 726 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: that like, Well, it's freakish because I haven't had that 727 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: experience much. You know, well, I'm saying you had it 728 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: with that song. I did. And I was at a 729 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,879 Speaker 1: an arena once in Orange County when she was doing 730 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: that tour, which was running from nine to eleven. Um. 731 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,319 Speaker 1: I only bring that up because it just the air 732 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,839 Speaker 1: was electrified, you know, the country was in a very 733 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 1: particular state of mind, and people gathered together and I 734 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: had you know, I had pitched to her kind of 735 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: something that she's doing now she's doing the theater tour. 736 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: You know, I had said, look, why don't you just 737 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: like park the whole cirque to soul a thing? Like 738 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: she needs career advice from me? What your career look 739 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: like mine looks? You know, you walked the streets effortlessly 740 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: as if she wanted to. Um. But anyway, I had 741 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: pitched this idea to her to like, you know, you 742 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: don't need Cirque to sola happening on stage. You don't 743 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: need all that. You know, you went a new concept. 744 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: Think about what Marvin Gay would be doing if he's 745 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: alive right now. Put together the most funky, badass like 746 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: five piece band and co present yourself as a musician. 747 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: What about that as an idea? You know, and she said, well, 748 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: I don't know how that would play an arenas. That said, 749 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: well that's the I have my idea. Get out of 750 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: the arenas. You know, go check into the nicest hotel 751 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: in every city and do ten nights somewhere you know 752 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: it gets comfortable, and then explore it all. To say 753 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 1: that that night, the first time that I've ever seen 754 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: her performance were the mask you know, the grid of 755 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: the night, which was incredibly intricate with stay, you know, elaborate, 756 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: you know, choreography whatever. But at a moment when she 757 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: did that song Don't tell me, she came out with 758 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: she had an acoustic guitar, she sat on a stool, 759 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 1: she had another guitar player on an acoustic guitar, and 760 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: she had a beatbox. And we were in the like 761 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 1: the second row. And you know, before that she'd just 762 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 1: been in character, you know, Madonna, in corporate logo Madonna, 763 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:47,959 Speaker 1: you know even that's her real name. You know, there's 764 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 1: a d M. Yeah, and you know it's all out here. 765 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: But when she sat down to do that song, she 766 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: looks straight at me and she said, this is for you, 767 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 1: and did it like too, because guitars and a beat 768 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,720 Speaker 1: and at one point, the music all stops and twenty 769 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: thousand people are all singing it. And that was a 770 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: really unique moment, not only because it's really affirming just 771 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 1: as a songwriter who operates decidedly out of the mainstream 772 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 1: to have a moment like that, but it also reminded 773 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 1: me that, you know, I've been told my whole career 774 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: that my songs are obtuse, that they're too difficult, that 775 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: they're not coverable. There you know, and I realized that 776 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't really about that as much as it was 777 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: about the delivery system, because that's got some really cryptic, 778 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: you know lines in it too, But there were twenty 779 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,280 Speaker 1: thousand people singing them, you know, wrapped in a different package. 780 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: It went down really differently. You know, I'm not saying 781 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: you're going to be your sister in law, But is 782 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: it a feeling that, yeah, that's that's where the music 783 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,839 Speaker 1: belongs now? No, No, I don't feel that way. Might 784 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,399 Speaker 1: it belongs in for some people? It's not not been 785 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:05,919 Speaker 1: my path, you know. Um, you know who Bob Neworth is, well, 786 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: he was he was Bob Dylan's like a sidekick and 787 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,799 Speaker 1: the Don't Look Back film, and he's a songwriter and 788 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: a painter and a beautiful man. And when we met 789 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: many years ago, he pulled me aside one night, like 790 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: a Dutch uncle and said, you know what your problem is. 791 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,399 Speaker 1: I said no, but I think you're about to tell me. 792 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: And he said, you you haven't created a persona, said 793 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: everybody that you admire, whether it's Bob, or it's Tom 794 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: Waits or I don't forget who else he listed, you know, 795 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,879 Speaker 1: they've gotta they've gotta they've created a public persona that's 796 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,840 Speaker 1: really persuasive and and you need to do that or 797 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: you're not gonna get over. And I realized that I 798 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: couldn't and I wouldn't. That's just not where I come from. 799 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: I think I made a decision really early on, whether 800 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 1: I was conscious of it or not, is that to like, Look, 801 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,799 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to create a mean Tom created this 802 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,920 Speaker 1: beautifully persuasive character that walks out ahead of his songs, 803 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: and before he sings a word, you already have a 804 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:12,480 Speaker 1: sense of their language in their context because he has 805 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:17,480 Speaker 1: this character that you recognize and it's consistent. But I 806 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: realized that that what I was going to try to 807 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: do is write songs that were seductive enough that I 808 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: could just disappear into them. You know, I know want 809 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,280 Speaker 1: the songs to be fodder for my character. I wanted 810 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: to feed myself like a bunk of wood, into the 811 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: fire of the songs and go up in sparks. You know. 812 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to create a character that I had 813 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: to like, Oh geez, what happens if I go out 814 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,799 Speaker 1: to get a paper and I'm not dressed like like 815 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,839 Speaker 1: my character? You know, if you become you know, that's 816 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 1: a disaster. Okay, well listen. Thank you so much, Bruce, 817 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. It was really it was a pleasure, 818 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:56,440 Speaker 1: and I appreciate you doing the you know, doing the homework. 819 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: Thanks to Joe Henry for playing songs off the new album, 820 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,720 Speaker 1: The Gospel according to Water and for talking to Bruce 821 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: about the inspiration behind his work. If you're sure, to 822 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: check out his new album plus a playlist of our 823 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: favorite Joe Henry songs plus a playlist of his own 824 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,360 Speaker 1: at broken record podcast dot com. Broken Record is produced 825 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,360 Speaker 1: with help from Jason Gambrel, Neil LaBelle Lea Rose, Matt Laboza, 826 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,880 Speaker 1: and Martin Gonzalez for Pushkin Industries. Our theme musics by 827 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,480 Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.