WEBVTT - Crises Collide: Balancing Net Zero and Energy Security 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.800 This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.559 the B and EF podcast. For those who listen to 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.200 this show regularly, you'll know that we recently did an 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.560 episode about the B and EF Winter gas Outlook. On 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.280 that show, we discussed, among other things, Russia's invasion of 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:19.239 Ukraine and how it's created the largest global energy crisis 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.799 that we have seen in decades. In response, nations have 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:27.600 introduced regulatory mechanisms to tackle inflation and strengthen their domestic 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.960 energy security, bringing in measures including price caps, windfall taxes, 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:36.160 and gas storage requirements. But have these actions in turn 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:40.120 added to the fiscal strain placed upon some utilities? And 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.840 also how extensive has the market disruption really been. Will 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:48.080 efforts to replace Russian energy supplies accelerate or decelerate the 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.640 energy transition and does that mean that we're still on 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:53.320 track to reach our net zero goals. Today we have 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:55.840 a bit of an unusual show for you. We're actually 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:58.960 going to bring you a panel from bnaf's recent summit 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.880 taking place in London. In this particular panel was on 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.160 the tenth of October, and it's where Deputy CEO Albert 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.040 Chung spoke with people including Greg Jackson he's the founder 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:13.400 and chief executive officer at Octopus Energy, along with Georgios Stasis, 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.200 Chairman and chief executive officer at Public Power Corporation, and 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:21.480 Rui Tichiera, who is Chief financial officer at EDP Renewables. 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.000 They discussed how best to approach energy security and affordability 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:28.160 in the wake of recent geopolitical issues. They also went 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.840 through what might be required to increase the pace of 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:35.319 clean energy technologies and streamline their deployment, and lastly, has 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.680 the increase in fossil fuel investments made for a net 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.680 zero compatible future. To learn more about BNF six summits, 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.200 which take place all over the world, and also to 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.760 see replays of some of the b andF talks and 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.520 debates that were delivered at our recent event in London, 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.760 you're going to want to head to about dot BNF 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.800 dot com Ford Slash Summit, or you can click on 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.240 the link that's been provided in the show notes Now. 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:01.840 As always, if you like the podcast, make sure to 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.320 subscribe and you'll receive an update on your phone when 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.680 you get a future episode that's published, Or you can 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.080 give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.400 you want to make us more discoverable by other people. 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.080 And now let's listen to Albert's conversation with his panel 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.360 at the B ANDAP summit in London. It was called 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:31.680 executive Dialogue Improving Energy Security while maintaining a net zero trajectory. 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:38.600 Thank you very much, Good morning everyone. 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.880 Great to be back here at the London summit discussing 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:46.640 what I think is an incredibly important topic of improving 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.240 energy security while maintaining a zero trajectory. Not an easy task, gentlemen, 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.080 thanks so much for joining us for what I think. 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:53.600 Is going to be a very thought provoking discussion. 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.360 At the risk of stating the obvious, we're having this 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.400 discussion because of the confluence of a number of factors 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.240 that have emerged on the global scene over the last 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:07.200 couple of years, not least a wave of rising climate ambition, 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.080 really over the last two years, especially since COP twenty six, 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:15.280 rising clean energy investment, rising ambition, rising technology development, but 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:20.360 also the post COVID rebound in energy demand, supply chain disruptions. 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:24.480 Of course, Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent global 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:29.200 energy crisis, and finally, a trend towards greater economic nationalism 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.680 and more muscular industrial strategy in various parts of the world, 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:32.679 as the panel. 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:33.800 Before us was just discussing. 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:36.480 So I think what all of that demonstrates is that 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.800 the title of this panel, improving energy security while maintaining 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:41.400 in net zero jectory, is not going to be. 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:42.920 A straightforward task. 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:44.640 So I want to kick off the discussion with you 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.560 all by actually looking backwards over the last one and 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.600 a half to two years and asking you each You've 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:52.320 all had very very busy. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.120 Intrays over the last couple of years. 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:56.560 I'd like you just to just recount some of the 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:58.720 main challenges or maybe the hardest moments, and just tell 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.640 us how your business navigated through that. And George, maybe 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:04.240 I'll ask you to get it started. 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.080 Thank you very much and thank you for having me 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:07.680 here today. 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.880 I mean, the last one and a half two years 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.400 has been very difficult for the sector with the energy crisis. 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.960 I still remember the August twenty twenty two with all 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.880 the marging calls and the difficult period at that moment. 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:28.960 Then the different countries in Europe and Europe intervened with 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:33.160 the extraordinary measures in different speeds, I would say, but 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.160 and maybe not fast enough. We didn't go directly to 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.200 the root of the problem, which was a gas We 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:44.760 went first on the power and later on intervened in 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:48.720 a better way. So this created a big turmoil run 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.320 from the cause by the volatility of the market at 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:54.520 the end of the day. So throughout this period, however, 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:59.040 we managed to survive, and I believe as Europe we 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:04.680 did we together looking back, and we achieved the security 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:08.640 of supply for the European citizens. Uh And I think 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.800 it has become very evident, but the answer to the 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:17.120 energy dry LIMA is not is clearly the clean energy 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:25.479 which is affordable, provide security and sustainable. So in that 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.479 direction we moved. Also in PPC, we have actually grown 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.840 through all these years and we made major acquisitions throughout 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:38.839 those couple of years. Uh And looking back, I mean, 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:44.400 I think it was a big crisis which concluded in 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:46.919 us becoming stronger. 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:51.039 All in all, we're staying with Southern Europe, I guess 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.960 will stay there before we moved to the UK. The 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.800 biggest challenge over the last couple of years of hardest moments, 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.680 and how IDP and you and your business managed to 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:01.600 get through, to get through all of that. 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:06.240 So I mean IDP is presently more than twenty markets worldwide, 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.000 and of course we felt different challenges, you know, depending 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.800 on the region. And Europe of course, a Jory said, 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.719 was much more into the volatility on the power prices. 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.720 US at some point was implementation of the Weigle First 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.400 Labor Protection Act and the impact that it had in 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:27.800 terms of importing some of the solar components into the US. 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:30.800 Brazil actually was moving, you. 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:32.520 Know, a bit of country cyclical in the sense that 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:36.760 it was the inflation and macro environment was getting worse 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.240 and then started to get better faster than elsewhere. But 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:42.600 particularly in Europe, I think that what we felt the 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:47.240 most was that volatility in the power crisis. Nowadays, I 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:51.520 mean we're actually seeing you know, this increasing tension in 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.599 the Middle East, and I think we need to also, 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.960 you know, look into what sort of impacts it could 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.599 potentially have as we go forward, also on the gas market, 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.359 that of course will impact the power market. 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:04.720 We are current, I mean. 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:06.880 We don't need also to look back eighteen twenty four months. 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.960 Today we have this higher for longer interest rate environment 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:15.680 that is pretty much underpinning the many investor confidence in 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.880 the ability to create value from growth. So all of 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:23.880 this it's all ingredients for you know, still internities that 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.320 we have ahead of us. But I think the best 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.520 way to deal with this is really making sure that 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:32.040 we have a very strong focus on executing the strategy. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:36.679 It's a twenty five billion euros CAPEX program until twenty 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.440 twenty six, eighty five percent of that into renewables, as 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:45.080 long as we can deploy this capital at sound profitability, 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.600 at meeting our internal hurdles. 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.320 For the profitability of these projects. 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.400 And I think one of the important elements that we 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.760 will keep pushing, and this is very much Europe and 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.960 across Europe, is that we need to have regulatory stability. 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.280 I think it's important that Europe, if it defines that 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.880 we want to address this trial Emma, one of the 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.440 important elements that we have a stable, predictable regulatory environment 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.160 and therefore we should not be reacting as we saw 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:16.000 many of the member states during the crisis in a 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.200 way that jeopardizes the confident and actually brought the investment 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.440 in renewable space down to one of its laws definitely 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:26.600 about forty percent less than it was the year before. 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.000 So I think this is one of the elements that 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:30.760 we will need to keep on working to make sure 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.600 that we keep the pace that we need to actually. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:37.920 Deploy the energy transition. Greg, I guess you know a 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:38.839 slightly different story. 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.319 But for Octopus, for the UK, what were the hard 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:42.800 challenges over the last couple of years, What were the 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:43.319 hard moment? 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:46.280 Yeah, So for those who don't know Octopus, although you 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.600 operate in a lot of countries, we've got three main businesses. 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:53.760 One's a consumer business in the UK, one is renewbal 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:55.720 generation and the other is technology. 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:56.319 And I think. 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.600 The beginning of the crisis, the first thought had to 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.760 be about consumers. It's how we're going to help them 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.439 through affordability. It's worth noting that we can look back 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:09.680 on the worst of the crisis now although we're not 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:14.000 out of it and frankly strong action from companies, but 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.320 really governments is what enables to get through in the 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:19.040 UK and average energy but would have been six and 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:21.120 a half thousand pounds last winter instead it was two 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:25.200 and a half thousand. That was government intervention. It also 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.280 speaks to the scale of the issue. So I think 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:29.680 the first change we had was to work out how 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:31.560 do we work with governments to get the best schemes 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.599 in place in the UK and other countries just to 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.360 enable the basic fundamentals of consumers and businesses being able 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:43.240 to weather the crisis. I think we can all be 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:51.240 pleased that governments did act the actor device decisively at scale, 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:53.640 and I think that enabled us to keep the economy 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.440 on the road and to be able to really focus 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:00.160 then on the medium term and the medium term our 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.680 question was how do we make sure this doesn't happen again, 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.360 or at least we reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.720 And I think, picking up on the points already made, 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.480 there's an enormous amount that you guys know, there's an 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.240 enormous amount of capital weight to be deployed in clean energy. 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:24.520 But the real barrier now is permitting grid connections and 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.480 ensuring that it can be done in an economically viable 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.880 way for the investors. And we've been able to use 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.640 the last couple of years to really rampime those conversations 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.600 with governments largely successfully. I mean, who would have forecast 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.480 that grid connections would be a front page topic in 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.880 pretty much every European country, but it had been, and 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.840 so I think we do now have an improved backdrop 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:49.040 for the transition. 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:50.160 We needed to make anyway. 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.760 And I guess the last bit, very selfishly is as 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:56.160 a company, you know that we went into the crisis 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:01.320 in a strong financial position, but with this kind of 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.920 looming prospect for consumers, and the question was actually, how 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.560 do you turn a crisis into an opportunity? And I 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.400 think working incredibly hard to look after customers and to 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.480 deploy our vision at scale meant that we grew the 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.240 business from just over two million customers to over six 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.760 million there and doubled our renewable investment from three and 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:24.880 a half billion of assets to seven billion with a 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.720 lot more to come, and increase the number of licenses 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.199 for the technology that will enable cheaper transitions around the 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.320 world from a few million to thirty or forty millionaire. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.160 So I think in every way what we saw was 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:41.599 the horrific circumstances in Ukraine leads to terrible outcomes for 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.160 customers and government's really looking down the Bible. Have never 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.080 been able to afford to do this again, so we 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.440 have to work hard now to make sure we don't. 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.040 It's like going on a diet. You know, what you 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:53.680 don't want to do is spot that you've lost a 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:55.280 few pounds and then give up and go back on 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.440 the pies. We now have to make sure that we 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.000 maintain this commitment to a more secure, cheaper energy system, 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:01.800 which by the way, is also cleaner. 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.200 So I want to build on that and look ahead 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.680 for the next year or two, and maybe Greg, I 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.160 ask you to kick off on this one. Staying on 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.560 that topic of energy security and affordability, the impact has 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.800 had on households, the impact has had on industry and 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.120 competitiveness in Europe. I know, my energy bill is still 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.120 very much elevated from you know, compared to. 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:20.160 Before the crisis. 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.720 All the forward curves are still elevated compared to historical levels. 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:25.599 So to what extent can we say, you know, this 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.000 submission accomplished. To what extent do we need to still 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.559 be kept awake at night worrying about affordability and security? 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.520 Like where are you on the spectrum of like we've 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.079 done the job versus hold on this is still you 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:37.199 know a huge issue for us. 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.240 Yeah, I mean we're nowhere near job done. I think 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.960 we might have written out the to do list. We've 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.760 now got to do it and everyone in business knows 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:46.520 that's the hard bit. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:48.720 The hard bit really now is that. 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.200 The single biggest thing we can do for affordability security 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:58.080 is electrification brackets of everything where it's possible. And I 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.960 think you know we're just beginning thatification journey. So if 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:05.360 we look at the UK as a fairly typical Northern 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:09.160 European economy and a forty five percent of energy is clean, 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.120 sorry of electricity is clean. Electricity is only twenty percent 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.079 of primary energy. So if you multiplied that through, we're 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.920 essentially nine percent of the way on the journey. It's 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:24.480 slightly better than that because electrification is automatically an improver 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.840 of efficiency. Electric vehicles are better at turning killer wats 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.120 into motion than until accomplishing engines by a long way. 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:35.760 Heat pumps are returning killoughts into heat than gas boilers. 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.920 But we really are now only just beginning the very 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:44.240 hard job of building a new system. And I think, 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.200 very briefly allow me to fly an idea by you, 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.319 but I think talk of the energy transition is unhelpful. 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.560 Anyone who's run a large organization knows that transformation is 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:58.280 incredibly difficult. Often starting with a clean sheet of paper 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.160 is the best way of doing things. And what we're 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:05.679 really doing is building a new electrification system in parallel 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.800 with the existing energy system, and over time consumers and businesses, 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.720 generators and infrastructure will be moving into that new world. 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.600 That new world is the opportunity for a real upgrade 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.680 on all the points of the trial and of security 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.400 and affordability and cleanliness. 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:25.920 George, your thoughts on kind of where we are now 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.480 on security and affordability looking forward the next year or two. 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.280 Yeah, as I said that the answer, the real answer 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.080 to the trilema is clean energy. So we are in 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:38.280 this path clearly, and that was a big lesson from 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.520 the crisis. It reminds me of some of this crisis 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.760 like the first oil stock in nineteen seventy three. Actually 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.480 it's exactly fifty years from Optomber nineteen seventy three, where 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.080 there was a very big crisis in the energy market worldwide. 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.240 And what happened if you look back, I mean, the 0:14:55.320 --> 0:15:01.080 world developed. They're wearing new systems, new proaducts, new solutions, 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:06.240 new business models, which brought us further. So equally similarly, 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:08.440 I believe this crisis is an opportunity. 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.480 We will need a new system. It's clear. 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.720 I mean, even looking at John's presentation this morning, we 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.440 see the magnitude and the big steps we need to move, 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:23.880 we need to take. And of course, as Grace said, 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.320 I'm going back to that greeds. I know there's a 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:33.040 session later on, but extremely important because the flow of 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.560 energy is flowing in a totally different way nowadays, and 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:42.840 with this system and the distribution of the generation, so 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:44.400 very big important. 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.720 Some greeds permitting. 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:52.360 New market design, so new systems, let's say uncapped access 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:56.280 to two PPAs for instance for the industrial sector. And 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.560 of course in security is always on our mind. But 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.400 I think all in all, it's clear where we need 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:08.240 to go, and I mean all the industries work in 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:08.760 that direction. 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.000 It's up to us how fast we will move. 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:15.760 The faster we move, the more it will be improving 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.560 the competitiveness of every country and the European citizens. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.120 At the end, were anything to add to that, well, 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:26.440 maybe just a few data points. Europe still imports around 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.600 fifty five percent of its energy needs, and of course 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.880 I mean these imports are fossil fuels. We depend tremendously 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:39.000 on geopolitic context that we see across the globe, and 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.640 therefore we know that we will also be competing with 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:47.080 Asia for gas for LNG so I think it's not 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:51.080 to anyone surprise that we see gas prices three times 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.200 higher than they were. 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:54.440 Back in twenty nineteen. 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:57.560 And I think that we will then, of course the 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.120 reflections into the power prices, and I'm not seeing any 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.159 within Europe any prices of three digits going back to 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.040 double digits before you know, maybe the next two years. 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:13.280 So this is a real problem for affordability that can 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.320 be addressed through obviously renewables. You know, if today I'm 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.919 asked to provide a fifteen years contract with a solar 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.959 or wind plant in the south of Europe, I can 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.280 do that maybe for around forty euros. I think it's 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.119 I would say impossible, but very hard to find one 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.879 of those contracts from fossil or based on forward curves 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.399 at those lot price levels, most likely at the sixty level, 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:42.160 so substantial, you know, higher prices compared to to the renewables. 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.359 So a renewables at this point can offer a lower 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.720 cost and therefore they provide a real alternative to bring 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:53.360 down the cost to consumers. But secondly, and I think 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:58.080 this is also very important, the more we accelerate the 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:04.440 growth in renewables, the lower the number of hours where 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.560 we'll have gas actually setting the price, so there is 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.800 an additional benefit. Is not only that contract that specific 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.400 consumer is effectively a benefit that is being introduced. 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:15.160 To the system as a whole. 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.080 So I really see it as the more we can 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.040 accelerate the decliment of this zero marginal cost technology with 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:25.840 the current market context, the more we'll get two objectives, 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.119 actually the three objectives of the trilam. It's sustainable, we 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.320 can increase the security of supply, and is definitely cheaper 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:36.360 versus any other source of fossil fuel power producing. 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.320 Right now, that resonates with me. 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.240 I mean when I think about all the challenges that 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.560 clean energy deployment is facing right now, whether it's inflation, 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:47.400 supply chain disruption, permitting constraints, Despite all of that, there's 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.439 still a dividend of switching to clean energy, which is 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.320 you know that spread that you talked about. So I 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:55.119 guess you know what I'd like to hear from all 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:56.840 of you, is, you know, given all those challenges, and 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:58.480 we're going to be talking about this throughout the day, 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.000 what's your description for how do we keep making progress? 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.080 How do we keep moving faster on clean energy deployment 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.800 despite all of those challenges. Knowing there's a dividend there 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:08.960 to be captured from the deployment. 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:11.440 Maybe I'll stay with you. Do you want to do 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:13.159 you want to have a go at that one? 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.720 I think probably this will not sound original, but I mean, 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.120 first of all, nowadays it takes five to ten years 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:22.280 to develop one of these projects in Europe, you know, 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:24.840 depending on the market. Within the five to ten years, 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:26.600 we really need to make sure that we achieve the 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.199 two years. This is defined that the state at the 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.399 member state level, but then needs to happen at the 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.240 local level. So it's not only about having these green 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.560 acceleration or rebelbo Acceleration zones, the positive silence, making sure 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.879 that we actually have the skills within the local administration, 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:47.160 the municipalities that more often than not are ultimately blocking 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.080 these projects to come to fruition. A second is that 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.679 we actually need to work much more with local communities. 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.080 It's obvious that we have the non in my backyard 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.240 mindset across all the countries in Europe and and pretty 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.560 much in the US many other places, but here in 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.920 Europe that's a fact. There's a lot to be done 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:06.480 by the private sector, but there's a lot to be 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.879 done as well by the states, again at the state 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.680 level and at the local level, to show that there 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.920 are benefits, effective vantages that we can combine renewable projects 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.320 with agricultural land. That they let me share one anecdote, 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:21.640 I mean this. I experienced this myself. I was discussing 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.840 with the landowner about a project and he was telling 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:28.000 me that the moment they had some winterbined installed up 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:30.520 the hill, he actually had more wind in his house. 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.080 So there's an education process that you have to bring 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:39.119 communities on board about the benefits of having the renewables, 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.760 I think very importantly, and George mentioned that we need 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:47.680 to have this increase the expansion in the greed more investment, 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:51.320 smarter investment, allowing for the hybrid projects to happen, so 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:53.960 I can use the semetery connection point and connect wind 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.160 solar with hydro capacity. The point is that the more 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.159 we can utilize that existing asset, the more efficial and 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:05.600 use of that in sought capacity we do have. And 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.280 I think one thing which needs to be done as well, 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.520 needs to happen is on the market design. And I 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:13.520 think we had that discussion maybe a year ago as 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.440 a reaction to that volatility in the in the in the. 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.280 Market prices nowadays. 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:20.560 I think it's that plus the fact that if we 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:25.639 can have that long term revenue predictability or stability for 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:29.159 these projects, we can reduce the cost of capital. And 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.600 again as of now even more important than in the past. 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.600 Reducing cost of capital will be key to ensure that 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.639 we are not slowing down the investment. So you know, 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.359 a lot needs to happen in the different front to 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:44.840 make sure that we keep the base of investment and 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:46.600 profitable investment in these assets. 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:51.359 Georgia, would your prescriptions be the same for your context. 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.280 I know you have a few different halbs that you were. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.800 So absolutely the same. 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.520