1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,559 Speaker 1: the B and EF podcast. For those who listen to 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: this show regularly, you'll know that we recently did an 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: episode about the B and EF Winter gas Outlook. On 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: that show, we discussed, among other things, Russia's invasion of 6 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: Ukraine and how it's created the largest global energy crisis 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: that we have seen in decades. In response, nations have 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: introduced regulatory mechanisms to tackle inflation and strengthen their domestic 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: energy security, bringing in measures including price caps, windfall taxes, 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: and gas storage requirements. But have these actions in turn 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: added to the fiscal strain placed upon some utilities? And 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: also how extensive has the market disruption really been. Will 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: efforts to replace Russian energy supplies accelerate or decelerate the 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: energy transition and does that mean that we're still on 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: track to reach our net zero goals. Today we have 16 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: a bit of an unusual show for you. We're actually 17 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: going to bring you a panel from bnaf's recent summit 18 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: taking place in London. In this particular panel was on 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: the tenth of October, and it's where Deputy CEO Albert 20 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: Chung spoke with people including Greg Jackson he's the founder 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: and chief executive officer at Octopus Energy, along with Georgios Stasis, 22 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: Chairman and chief executive officer at Public Power Corporation, and 23 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: Rui Tichiera, who is Chief financial officer at EDP Renewables. 24 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: They discussed how best to approach energy security and affordability 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: in the wake of recent geopolitical issues. They also went 26 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: through what might be required to increase the pace of 27 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: clean energy technologies and streamline their deployment, and lastly, has 28 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: the increase in fossil fuel investments made for a net 29 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: zero compatible future. To learn more about BNF six summits, 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: which take place all over the world, and also to 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: see replays of some of the b andF talks and 32 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: debates that were delivered at our recent event in London, 33 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: you're going to want to head to about dot BNF 34 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: dot com Ford Slash Summit, or you can click on 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: the link that's been provided in the show notes Now. 36 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: As always, if you like the podcast, make sure to 37 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: subscribe and you'll receive an update on your phone when 38 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: you get a future episode that's published, Or you can 39 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If 40 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: you want to make us more discoverable by other people. 41 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: And now let's listen to Albert's conversation with his panel 42 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: at the B ANDAP summit in London. It was called 43 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: executive Dialogue Improving Energy Security while maintaining a net zero trajectory. 44 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Good morning everyone. 45 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 3: Great to be back here at the London summit discussing 46 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 3: what I think is an incredibly important topic of improving 47 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 3: energy security while maintaining a zero trajectory. Not an easy task, gentlemen, 48 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 3: thanks so much for joining us for what I think. 49 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: Is going to be a very thought provoking discussion. 50 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 3: At the risk of stating the obvious, we're having this 51 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 3: discussion because of the confluence of a number of factors 52 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 3: that have emerged on the global scene over the last 53 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 3: couple of years, not least a wave of rising climate ambition, 54 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 3: really over the last two years, especially since COP twenty six, 55 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 3: rising clean energy investment, rising ambition, rising technology development, but 56 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 3: also the post COVID rebound in energy demand, supply chain disruptions. 57 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: Of course, Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the subsequent global 58 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 3: energy crisis, and finally, a trend towards greater economic nationalism 59 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 3: and more muscular industrial strategy in various parts of the world, 60 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:32,679 Speaker 3: as the panel. 61 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: Before us was just discussing. 62 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 3: So I think what all of that demonstrates is that 63 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 3: the title of this panel, improving energy security while maintaining 64 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 3: in net zero jectory, is not going to be. 65 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: A straightforward task. 66 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 3: So I want to kick off the discussion with you 67 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 3: all by actually looking backwards over the last one and 68 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 3: a half to two years and asking you each You've 69 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: all had very very busy. 70 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: Intrays over the last couple of years. 71 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 3: I'd like you just to just recount some of the 72 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 3: main challenges or maybe the hardest moments, and just tell 73 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: us how your business navigated through that. And George, maybe 74 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 3: I'll ask you to get it started. 75 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: Thank you very much and thank you for having me 76 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: here today. 77 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 4: I mean, the last one and a half two years 78 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 4: has been very difficult for the sector with the energy crisis. 79 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 4: I still remember the August twenty twenty two with all 80 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 4: the marging calls and the difficult period at that moment. 81 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 4: Then the different countries in Europe and Europe intervened with 82 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 4: the extraordinary measures in different speeds, I would say, but 83 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 4: and maybe not fast enough. We didn't go directly to 84 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 4: the root of the problem, which was a gas We 85 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 4: went first on the power and later on intervened in 86 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 4: a better way. So this created a big turmoil run 87 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 4: from the cause by the volatility of the market at 88 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 4: the end of the day. So throughout this period, however, 89 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 4: we managed to survive, and I believe as Europe we 90 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 4: did we together looking back, and we achieved the security 91 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 4: of supply for the European citizens. Uh And I think 92 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 4: it has become very evident, but the answer to the 93 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 4: energy dry LIMA is not is clearly the clean energy 94 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 4: which is affordable, provide security and sustainable. So in that 95 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 4: direction we moved. Also in PPC, we have actually grown 96 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 4: through all these years and we made major acquisitions throughout 97 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 4: those couple of years. Uh And looking back, I mean, 98 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 4: I think it was a big crisis which concluded in 99 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 4: us becoming stronger. 100 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 3: All in all, we're staying with Southern Europe, I guess 101 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: will stay there before we moved to the UK. The 102 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 3: biggest challenge over the last couple of years of hardest moments, 103 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 3: and how IDP and you and your business managed to 104 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 3: get through, to get through all of that. 105 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 5: So I mean IDP is presently more than twenty markets worldwide, 106 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 5: and of course we felt different challenges, you know, depending 107 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 5: on the region. And Europe of course, a Jory said, 108 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 5: was much more into the volatility on the power prices. 109 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 5: US at some point was implementation of the Weigle First 110 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 5: Labor Protection Act and the impact that it had in 111 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 5: terms of importing some of the solar components into the US. 112 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: Brazil actually was moving, you. 113 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 5: Know, a bit of country cyclical in the sense that 114 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 5: it was the inflation and macro environment was getting worse 115 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 5: and then started to get better faster than elsewhere. But 116 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 5: particularly in Europe, I think that what we felt the 117 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 5: most was that volatility in the power crisis. Nowadays, I 118 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 5: mean we're actually seeing you know, this increasing tension in 119 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 5: the Middle East, and I think we need to also, 120 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 5: you know, look into what sort of impacts it could 121 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 5: potentially have as we go forward, also on the gas market, 122 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 5: that of course will impact the power market. 123 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 2: We are current, I mean. 124 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 5: We don't need also to look back eighteen twenty four months. 125 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 5: Today we have this higher for longer interest rate environment 126 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 5: that is pretty much underpinning the many investor confidence in 127 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 5: the ability to create value from growth. So all of 128 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 5: this it's all ingredients for you know, still internities that 129 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 5: we have ahead of us. But I think the best 130 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 5: way to deal with this is really making sure that 131 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 5: we have a very strong focus on executing the strategy. 132 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 5: It's a twenty five billion euros CAPEX program until twenty 133 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 5: twenty six, eighty five percent of that into renewables, as 134 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 5: long as we can deploy this capital at sound profitability, 135 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 5: at meeting our internal hurdles. 136 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: For the profitability of these projects. 137 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 5: And I think one of the important elements that we 138 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 5: will keep pushing, and this is very much Europe and 139 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 5: across Europe, is that we need to have regulatory stability. 140 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 5: I think it's important that Europe, if it defines that 141 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 5: we want to address this trial Emma, one of the 142 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 5: important elements that we have a stable, predictable regulatory environment 143 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 5: and therefore we should not be reacting as we saw 144 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 5: many of the member states during the crisis in a 145 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 5: way that jeopardizes the confident and actually brought the investment 146 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 5: in renewable space down to one of its laws definitely 147 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 5: about forty percent less than it was the year before. 148 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 5: So I think this is one of the elements that 149 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 5: we will need to keep on working to make sure 150 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 5: that we keep the pace that we need to actually. 151 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 2: Deploy the energy transition. Greg, I guess you know a 152 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 2: slightly different story. 153 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 3: But for Octopus, for the UK, what were the hard 154 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 3: challenges over the last couple of years, What were the 155 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 3: hard moment? 156 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, So for those who don't know Octopus, although you 157 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 6: operate in a lot of countries, we've got three main businesses. 158 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 6: One's a consumer business in the UK, one is renewbal 159 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 6: generation and the other is technology. 160 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 7: And I think. 161 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 6: The beginning of the crisis, the first thought had to 162 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 6: be about consumers. It's how we're going to help them 163 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 6: through affordability. It's worth noting that we can look back 164 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 6: on the worst of the crisis now although we're not 165 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 6: out of it and frankly strong action from companies, but 166 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 6: really governments is what enables to get through in the 167 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 6: UK and average energy but would have been six and 168 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 6: a half thousand pounds last winter instead it was two 169 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 6: and a half thousand. That was government intervention. It also 170 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 6: speaks to the scale of the issue. So I think 171 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 6: the first change we had was to work out how 172 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 6: do we work with governments to get the best schemes 173 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,599 Speaker 6: in place in the UK and other countries just to 174 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 6: enable the basic fundamentals of consumers and businesses being able 175 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 6: to weather the crisis. I think we can all be 176 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 6: pleased that governments did act the actor device decisively at scale, 177 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 6: and I think that enabled us to keep the economy 178 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 6: on the road and to be able to really focus 179 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 6: then on the medium term and the medium term our 180 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 6: question was how do we make sure this doesn't happen again, 181 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 6: or at least we reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, 182 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 6: And I think, picking up on the points already made, 183 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 6: there's an enormous amount that you guys know, there's an 184 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 6: enormous amount of capital weight to be deployed in clean energy. 185 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 6: But the real barrier now is permitting grid connections and 186 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 6: ensuring that it can be done in an economically viable 187 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 6: way for the investors. And we've been able to use 188 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 6: the last couple of years to really rampime those conversations 189 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 6: with governments largely successfully. I mean, who would have forecast 190 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 6: that grid connections would be a front page topic in 191 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 6: pretty much every European country, but it had been, and 192 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 6: so I think we do now have an improved backdrop 193 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 6: for the transition. 194 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 7: We needed to make anyway. 195 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 6: And I guess the last bit, very selfishly is as 196 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 6: a company, you know that we went into the crisis 197 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 6: in a strong financial position, but with this kind of 198 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 6: looming prospect for consumers, and the question was actually, how 199 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 6: do you turn a crisis into an opportunity? And I 200 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 6: think working incredibly hard to look after customers and to 201 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 6: deploy our vision at scale meant that we grew the 202 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 6: business from just over two million customers to over six 203 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 6: million there and doubled our renewable investment from three and 204 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 6: a half billion of assets to seven billion with a 205 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 6: lot more to come, and increase the number of licenses 206 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 6: for the technology that will enable cheaper transitions around the 207 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 6: world from a few million to thirty or forty millionaire. 208 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 6: So I think in every way what we saw was 209 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,599 Speaker 6: the horrific circumstances in Ukraine leads to terrible outcomes for 210 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 6: customers and government's really looking down the Bible. Have never 211 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 6: been able to afford to do this again, so we 212 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 6: have to work hard now to make sure we don't. 213 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 6: It's like going on a diet. You know, what you 214 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 6: don't want to do is spot that you've lost a 215 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 6: few pounds and then give up and go back on 216 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 6: the pies. We now have to make sure that we 217 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 6: maintain this commitment to a more secure, cheaper energy system, 218 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 6: which by the way, is also cleaner. 219 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 3: So I want to build on that and look ahead 220 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 3: for the next year or two, and maybe Greg, I 221 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 3: ask you to kick off on this one. Staying on 222 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 3: that topic of energy security and affordability, the impact has 223 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 3: had on households, the impact has had on industry and 224 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 3: competitiveness in Europe. I know, my energy bill is still 225 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 3: very much elevated from you know, compared to. 226 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: Before the crisis. 227 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 3: All the forward curves are still elevated compared to historical levels. 228 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,599 Speaker 3: So to what extent can we say, you know, this 229 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 3: submission accomplished. To what extent do we need to still 230 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 3: be kept awake at night worrying about affordability and security? 231 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 3: Like where are you on the spectrum of like we've 232 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 3: done the job versus hold on this is still you 233 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 3: know a huge issue for us. 234 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean we're nowhere near job done. I think 235 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 6: we might have written out the to do list. We've 236 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 6: now got to do it and everyone in business knows 237 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 6: that's the hard bit. 238 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 7: The hard bit really now is that. 239 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 6: The single biggest thing we can do for affordability security 240 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 6: is electrification brackets of everything where it's possible. And I 241 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 6: think you know we're just beginning thatification journey. So if 242 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 6: we look at the UK as a fairly typical Northern 243 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 6: European economy and a forty five percent of energy is clean, 244 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 6: sorry of electricity is clean. Electricity is only twenty percent 245 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 6: of primary energy. So if you multiplied that through, we're 246 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 6: essentially nine percent of the way on the journey. It's 247 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 6: slightly better than that because electrification is automatically an improver 248 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 6: of efficiency. Electric vehicles are better at turning killer wats 249 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 6: into motion than until accomplishing engines by a long way. 250 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 6: Heat pumps are returning killoughts into heat than gas boilers. 251 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 6: But we really are now only just beginning the very 252 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 6: hard job of building a new system. And I think, 253 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 6: very briefly allow me to fly an idea by you, 254 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 6: but I think talk of the energy transition is unhelpful. 255 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 6: Anyone who's run a large organization knows that transformation is 256 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 6: incredibly difficult. Often starting with a clean sheet of paper 257 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 6: is the best way of doing things. And what we're 258 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 6: really doing is building a new electrification system in parallel 259 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 6: with the existing energy system, and over time consumers and businesses, 260 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 6: generators and infrastructure will be moving into that new world. 261 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 6: That new world is the opportunity for a real upgrade 262 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 6: on all the points of the trial and of security 263 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 6: and affordability and cleanliness. 264 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: George, your thoughts on kind of where we are now 265 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 3: on security and affordability looking forward the next year or two. 266 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, as I said that the answer, the real answer 267 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 4: to the trilema is clean energy. So we are in 268 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 4: this path clearly, and that was a big lesson from 269 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 4: the crisis. It reminds me of some of this crisis 270 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 4: like the first oil stock in nineteen seventy three. Actually 271 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 4: it's exactly fifty years from Optomber nineteen seventy three, where 272 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 4: there was a very big crisis in the energy market worldwide. 273 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 4: And what happened if you look back, I mean, the 274 00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 4: world developed. They're wearing new systems, new proaducts, new solutions, 275 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 4: new business models, which brought us further. So equally similarly, 276 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 4: I believe this crisis is an opportunity. 277 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: We will need a new system. It's clear. 278 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 4: I mean, even looking at John's presentation this morning, we 279 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 4: see the magnitude and the big steps we need to move, 280 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 4: we need to take. And of course, as Grace said, 281 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 4: I'm going back to that greeds. I know there's a 282 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 4: session later on, but extremely important because the flow of 283 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 4: energy is flowing in a totally different way nowadays, and 284 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 4: with this system and the distribution of the generation, so 285 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 4: very big important. 286 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: Some greeds permitting. 287 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 4: New market design, so new systems, let's say uncapped access 288 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 4: to two PPAs for instance for the industrial sector. And 289 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 4: of course in security is always on our mind. But 290 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 4: I think all in all, it's clear where we need 291 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 4: to go, and I mean all the industries work in 292 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 4: that direction. 293 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: It's up to us how fast we will move. 294 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 4: The faster we move, the more it will be improving 295 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 4: the competitiveness of every country and the European citizens. 296 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 5: At the end, were anything to add to that, well, 297 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 5: maybe just a few data points. Europe still imports around 298 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 5: fifty five percent of its energy needs, and of course 299 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 5: I mean these imports are fossil fuels. We depend tremendously 300 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 5: on geopolitic context that we see across the globe, and 301 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 5: therefore we know that we will also be competing with 302 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 5: Asia for gas for LNG so I think it's not 303 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 5: to anyone surprise that we see gas prices three times 304 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 5: higher than they were. 305 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 2: Back in twenty nineteen. 306 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 5: And I think that we will then, of course the 307 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 5: reflections into the power prices, and I'm not seeing any 308 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 5: within Europe any prices of three digits going back to 309 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 5: double digits before you know, maybe the next two years. 310 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 5: So this is a real problem for affordability that can 311 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 5: be addressed through obviously renewables. You know, if today I'm 312 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 5: asked to provide a fifteen years contract with a solar 313 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,959 Speaker 5: or wind plant in the south of Europe, I can 314 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 5: do that maybe for around forty euros. I think it's 315 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 5: I would say impossible, but very hard to find one 316 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 5: of those contracts from fossil or based on forward curves 317 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 5: at those lot price levels, most likely at the sixty level, 318 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 5: so substantial, you know, higher prices compared to to the renewables. 319 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 5: So a renewables at this point can offer a lower 320 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 5: cost and therefore they provide a real alternative to bring 321 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 5: down the cost to consumers. But secondly, and I think 322 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 5: this is also very important, the more we accelerate the 323 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 5: growth in renewables, the lower the number of hours where 324 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 5: we'll have gas actually setting the price, so there is 325 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 5: an additional benefit. Is not only that contract that specific 326 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 5: consumer is effectively a benefit that is being introduced. 327 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 2: To the system as a whole. 328 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 5: So I really see it as the more we can 329 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 5: accelerate the decliment of this zero marginal cost technology with 330 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 5: the current market context, the more we'll get two objectives, 331 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 5: actually the three objectives of the trilam. It's sustainable, we 332 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 5: can increase the security of supply, and is definitely cheaper 333 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 5: versus any other source of fossil fuel power producing. 334 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: Right now, that resonates with me. 335 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 3: I mean when I think about all the challenges that 336 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: clean energy deployment is facing right now, whether it's inflation, 337 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 3: supply chain disruption, permitting constraints, Despite all of that, there's 338 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 3: still a dividend of switching to clean energy, which is 339 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 3: you know that spread that you talked about. So I 340 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 3: guess you know what I'd like to hear from all 341 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 3: of you, is, you know, given all those challenges, and 342 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about this throughout the day, 343 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: what's your description for how do we keep making progress? 344 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 3: How do we keep moving faster on clean energy deployment 345 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 3: despite all of those challenges. Knowing there's a dividend there 346 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 3: to be captured from the deployment. 347 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 2: Maybe I'll stay with you. Do you want to do 348 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 2: you want to have a go at that one? 349 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 5: I think probably this will not sound original, but I mean, 350 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 5: first of all, nowadays it takes five to ten years 351 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 5: to develop one of these projects in Europe, you know, 352 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 5: depending on the market. Within the five to ten years, 353 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 5: we really need to make sure that we achieve the 354 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 5: two years. This is defined that the state at the 355 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 5: member state level, but then needs to happen at the 356 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 5: local level. So it's not only about having these green 357 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 5: acceleration or rebelbo Acceleration zones, the positive silence, making sure 358 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 5: that we actually have the skills within the local administration, 359 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 5: the municipalities that more often than not are ultimately blocking 360 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 5: these projects to come to fruition. A second is that 361 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 5: we actually need to work much more with local communities. 362 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 5: It's obvious that we have the non in my backyard 363 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 5: mindset across all the countries in Europe and and pretty 364 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 5: much in the US many other places, but here in 365 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 5: Europe that's a fact. There's a lot to be done 366 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 5: by the private sector, but there's a lot to be 367 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 5: done as well by the states, again at the state 368 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 5: level and at the local level, to show that there 369 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 5: are benefits, effective vantages that we can combine renewable projects 370 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 5: with agricultural land. That they let me share one anecdote, 371 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 5: I mean this. I experienced this myself. I was discussing 372 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 5: with the landowner about a project and he was telling 373 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 5: me that the moment they had some winterbined installed up 374 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 5: the hill, he actually had more wind in his house. 375 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 5: So there's an education process that you have to bring 376 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 5: communities on board about the benefits of having the renewables, 377 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 5: I think very importantly, and George mentioned that we need 378 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 5: to have this increase the expansion in the greed more investment, 379 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 5: smarter investment, allowing for the hybrid projects to happen, so 380 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 5: I can use the semetery connection point and connect wind 381 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 5: solar with hydro capacity. The point is that the more 382 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 5: we can utilize that existing asset, the more efficial and 383 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 5: use of that in sought capacity we do have. And 384 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 5: I think one thing which needs to be done as well, 385 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 5: needs to happen is on the market design. And I 386 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 5: think we had that discussion maybe a year ago as 387 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 5: a reaction to that volatility in the in the in the. 388 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: Market prices nowadays. 389 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 5: I think it's that plus the fact that if we 390 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 5: can have that long term revenue predictability or stability for 391 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 5: these projects, we can reduce the cost of capital. And 392 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 5: again as of now even more important than in the past. 393 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 5: Reducing cost of capital will be key to ensure that 394 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 5: we are not slowing down the investment. So you know, 395 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 5: a lot needs to happen in the different front to 396 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 5: make sure that we keep the base of investment and 397 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 5: profitable investment in these assets. 398 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 3: Georgia, would your prescriptions be the same for your context. 399 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 3: I know you have a few different halbs that you were. 400 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: So absolutely the same. 401 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean this is the time that I mean 402 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 4: we need also the policy makers so that they come 403 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 4: into play, and we need to keep the dialogue open, 404 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 4: and we do so, of course, and this event is 405 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 4: helping very much for people and stakeholders to understand what 406 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 4: is the correct direction in order to design the proper frameworks. 407 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: Other than that, I have to say on the other 408 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: side that. 409 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 4: Renewables is the cheapest form of energy nowadays, so it's 410 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 4: totally different how it was ten years ago. We have 411 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 4: a good tailwind behind US, And last I think the 412 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 4: other point to mention is that in terms of cost 413 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 4: of capital, I think EU has the tools to provide 414 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 4: to help and assist on the financing, subsidize financing. They 415 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 4: can have a much better interest and I think we 416 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 4: need to have instruments like that in the industry to 417 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 4: assist those investments. 418 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 6: Correct anything to add Yeah, I mean, first of all, 419 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 6: think rule is exactly right that we need to really 420 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 6: think hard about community. In fact, I think we need 421 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 6: to go further and truly understand consumers consumption because really 422 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 6: we're not in a lightful like shift from fossil fuels 423 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 6: to renewables. The physics and the economics of renewables are 424 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 6: entirely different. When it's windy and sunny, you have abundant, 425 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 6: super cheap power that's also clean, and it's really important. 426 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 6: If we're going to have a cheap renewables based system, 427 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 6: then we have the market reform that enables consumers to 428 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 6: fill their electric cars, batteries, maybe run their appliances, that 429 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 6: enables businesses to tap into this power and it's cheapest. 430 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 6: That has two really important impacts. The first is it 431 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 6: brings down the average cost because the more we use 432 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 6: at those times, the more that we benefit from the 433 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 6: very low prices. But the second thing is it reduces 434 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 6: the challenge of intermittency, because the more we can shift 435 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 6: consumption and capitalize on it in those times, the smaller 436 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 6: the gaps we have to fill. 437 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 7: So I think. 438 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 6: The really important thing is that this needs to be 439 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 6: to be fast and to be economically efficient. We need 440 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 6: smart grid technologies, We need price signals, we need dynamic 441 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 6: pricing right through the grids. It doesn't mean that every 442 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 6: old lady is going to see different price every half hour, 443 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 6: but it does mean that the companies that are selling 444 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 6: the product can wrap products around those price signals that 445 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 6: enable every type of consumer to benefit from this. And look, 446 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 6: what we should absolutely not do is two things. One 447 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 6: is we should give up sitting there and saying but 448 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 6: what about and then creating some bizarre edge case. 449 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 7: We have to remember. 450 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 6: All the frailties of the fossil fuel system and stop 451 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 6: expecting renewables to deliver everything fossil fuels did and every 452 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 6: form of perfection. On top of that, we're building an 453 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 6: entirely new system. And so the mindset, I think is 454 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 6: the mindset for us to work out out of this 455 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 6: most efficiently to do it in a way that generates 456 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 6: best returns for business but also the best value for consumers. 457 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 6: Is to think, you know what, if we never had 458 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 6: fossil fuels, how would we build a system then. 459 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 7: Because that's the one we now need to build. 460 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 3: So I want to ask about fossil fuel investment as well. 461 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 3: So you saw in John's talk that investment into clean 462 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: energy has grown very significantly over the last couple of years. 463 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 3: He didn't show that we have a chart that shows 464 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 3: the same for fossil fuels. Investment has been growing over 465 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 3: the last couple of years. So I'm curious in the 466 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 3: panel's opinion about to what extent it has been necessary 467 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 3: to increase FOSSi fiel investment over the last couple of years, 468 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 3: and to what extent is that consistent with getting on 469 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 3: track for that zero Maybe, George, if you want to 470 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 3: have a go at first, Yeah. 471 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: I mean it is a volatile market. 472 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 4: In the volatility and I think this volatility, if you 473 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 4: take a step back and you look the decade in 474 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 4: front of us, in the twenty years in front of us, 475 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 4: in my opinion, this volatility will continue. Maybe not, so 476 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 4: there will be areas of peaks and laws throughout the 477 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 4: following years. So I still remember the wells in the 478 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 4: US and for the fracking activity which went burst when 479 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 4: we were at the laws. 480 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 2: And of course when we are. 481 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 4: On the peaks, they reinvest So we shouldn't care. 482 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: I mean, we don't mind. I mean we will always 483 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 2: have opportunistic investments in that in that sense. 484 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 4: But what is constant and that with what has an 485 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 4: upscale trend more and more is investing in clin technology. 486 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 4: We see this, we are seeing, we are witnessing, and 487 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 4: we will keep them seeing in the future. So no 488 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 4: matter the volatility, the sustainable investment is only in clean technology. 489 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 4: So I mean, the more time passes and we go 490 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 4: to the end of this decade, we will be witnessing 491 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 4: in my opinion, less and less investments in fossil and 492 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 4: much for much, much more on clean technologies, because also 493 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 4: the latility will become. 494 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 2: Will be delayed. 495 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 3: So it's a sort of cyclicality versus secularity. 496 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: If I can, it is a bit too horrormation. 497 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 4: It is a transition, and the transition you will have 498 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 4: a volatile situation and we need to learn to work 499 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 4: with that. And this is the reality. So we need 500 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 4: to also in the in the power sector. I mean, 501 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 4: we need to use the laws in our favor and 502 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 4: manage the difficulties. 503 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 3: Greg, are you relaxed about seeing fossil fil investment growing 504 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 3: in this country and other places? 505 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm pretty relaxed tob that. 506 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 6: I mean, the first of all, the reality is until 507 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 6: we built, you know, the upgraded new system based around renewables, 508 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 6: we need to fill the gaps, and filling the gaps with, 509 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 6: for example. 510 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 7: Gases perfectly. 511 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 6: The reason, yes, today we're totally dependent on fossil If 512 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 6: you're going to fly anyway, you're going to be using 513 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 6: fossil fuels. So certain sectors they're going to take a 514 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 6: long time to electrify. And I think one of the 515 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 6: reasons I'm stopping to talking about the transition is, you know, 516 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 6: we don't need to demonize fossil fuels at all. 517 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 7: In fact, I would like the fossil fuel industry to. 518 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: Be more. 519 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 6: Open and proud. How do welliaminate green washing? We allow 520 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 6: people to be honest. Honesty also delivers better returns for investors, 521 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 6: and I think in the long run, enabling clarity between 522 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 6: companies that are driving clean renewables based electrification and companies 523 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 6: that are maintaining you know, the wheels on the bus 524 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 6: for a period of time. In the world of fossil fuels, 525 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 6: actually becoming clear on both sides will enable investors to 526 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 6: make better decisions. It will help reduce green washing, both 527 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 6: in the consuming world and in. 528 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 7: The corporate world. And look at. 529 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 6: Tobacco companies, you know, went through this process where to 530 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 6: begin with, they denied that smoking caused diseases, and then 531 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 6: they introduced a whole bunch of kind of innovations to 532 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 6: help reduce the harm, which didn't really and then eventually 533 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 6: one day everyone honest about it. And since then I 534 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 6: think on the whole tobacco is delivered some of the 535 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 6: best returns in public stocks for decades. I see no 536 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 6: problem at all with fossil films. Actually just jumping. The 537 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 6: quicker we jumped to the honesty period, the better, and 538 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 6: then we can have you know, investors able to confidently 539 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 6: back a sector. Is it I hope eventually winds down, 540 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 6: but in the meantime serves the needs of society and 541 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 6: confidently and clearly back a sector there's going to be 542 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 6: the future. 543 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 5: Ruy, do you do you agree with with all of that, well, 544 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 5: I probably would prefer to see it, you know, the 545 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 5: transition to happen faster. But I'll know again, we had 546 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 5: the hottest July in the records. I think September was 547 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 5: the hottest September. Ever, I'm not sure even sure if 548 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 5: they did not change the scale of the graphic, because 549 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 5: otherwise it would not show. Judge was just mentioning you 550 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 5: have severe wildfires in Greece and week after if so, 551 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 5: the world substantial. I mean, you go to Hawaii, you 552 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 5: go to Canada. You know, you have several examples in 553 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 5: the world that climate change is reality with severe impact 554 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 5: to the population. So we cannot afford waiting too long 555 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 5: to actually accelerate the energy transitions. So the world needs 556 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 5: this to happen. So that's maybe my first comment. So 557 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 5: the second one is I think that you know, in general, 558 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 5: of course. 559 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: Business react to signals. 560 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 5: The moment we start having, for example, a U two 561 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 5: pricing in Europe, that signals to the oil and gas 562 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 5: or the fossil fuels operators that there is actually an 563 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 5: investment case or a business case for the transition. And again, 564 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 5: the transition in the in the in the fossil fuel 565 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 5: doesn't necessarily mean that they all go into renewables. I 566 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 5: think that there are natural A player, a major player 567 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 5: in green hydrogen. They are natural a or they should 568 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 5: be green players or good players in carbon sextration. So 569 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 5: I think that's what to me is missing, is that 570 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 5: additional investment in technology to decarbonize because there are some 571 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 5: segments or some areas within the economy that it will 572 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 5: be hard to electrify. So it's obvious that we'll need 573 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 5: to have that knowledge and that investment into new technology. 574 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 5: But very importantly, I think it's also good to have 575 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 5: I would say governments being consequential of the strategy that 576 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 5: they define for Europe. You may remember that in twenty 577 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 5: twenty two the power sector was subject to all kinds 578 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 5: of clawbex you know, price caps, regulatory clowbecks, you name it, 579 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 5: and that of course prevented companies to have the capital 580 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 5: and cash to keep on accelerating into the energy transition. 581 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 5: And I'm little renewbles. You add all you take the 582 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,719 Speaker 5: top ten utilities in Europe, you add their reported net 583 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 5: profit in twenty twenty two, the sun is smaller than 584 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 5: the smaller of the oil and gas majors net profit 585 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 5: reported that year in Europe, so the top ten utilities 586 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 5: altogether have a lower net profit than the smallest of 587 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 5: the oil and gas majors. 588 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 2: When this happens, it. 589 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 5: Means that it's not only about whether there are investments 590 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 5: or not in the fossil fuels, by the way, where 591 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 5: those investments happen and the job political concerns that we 592 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 5: raised in beginning and the security of supply is also 593 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 5: making sure that governments in Europe think long term and 594 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 5: they are consequential about what they want in terms of 595 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 5: energy deizition versus how they then act upon the sector 596 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 5: when times are tough, as we saw in twenty twenty two. 597 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 2: Thank you well. 598 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 3: We talked about fossil fuels, we talked about renewal energy. 599 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 3: We haven't yet talked about the next generation of clean 600 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 3: technologies that we really need to scale up heat palms, 601 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 3: green hydrogen systemable aviation fuels, you name a range of 602 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 3: different solutions that make up maybe the last quarter of 603 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 3: decarbonization that John showed us before. So, I mean, we 604 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 3: know the ambition is there, the targets are there, that 605 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 3: there's a lot of projects being announced and so on, 606 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: but deployment is still not at the pace it needs 607 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 3: to be. 608 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 7: So my question for all. 609 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 3: Of you is kind of how do you view the 610 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 3: challenges we're deploying this next phase of technologies and where 611 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 3: do we go from here? 612 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 2: How do we get on track? And Greg, I'm going 613 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: to ask you to go first. 614 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 3: I know your company is doing a lot of heat 615 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 3: pumps in particular, and can to hear your thoughts on 616 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 3: that well. 617 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 6: I mean, first of all, I fully agreed rule that 618 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 6: we need to see all this faster. I think one 619 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 6: of the reasons I just want the clarity is it 620 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 6: enables us to be much clearer that our mission now 621 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 6: is to build better solutions for consumers so that instead 622 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 6: of them resisting what they see as are forced to change, 623 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 6: they're provided with products and services that are clearly better 624 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 6: than the ones they have today. Heat pumps is a 625 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 6: great example. The kind of current debate in the UK, 626 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 6: particularly in the UK, about heat pumps versus gas boilers 627 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 6: is kind of a ridiculous I see these stories about 628 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 6: beloved gas boilers are not beloved. They're so unreliable that 629 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 6: the insurance policy for a typical gas boiler is more 630 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 6: than the insurance policy for a typical home. Right they're 631 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 6: so unreliable that people buy insurance because they're worried that 632 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 6: if they wake up in the morning, the gas isn't 633 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 6: the boiler's not going to work, and they have no 634 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 6: hot water and they need an engineer there quickly. On 635 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 6: top of that, you know, they mix together, you know, 636 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 6: highly combustible gas, a very hot flame and water in 637 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 6: a small box that then emits gases that are noxious 638 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 6: enough to go. 639 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:41,280 Speaker 7: Into the street. 640 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 6: Local air pollution kills thirty thousand people here in the UK. 641 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 6: All of it is from combusting stuff. That's what we 642 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 6: currently have in our homes. In twenty years time it 643 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 6: will look as ridiculous as smoking in restaurants does now 644 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 6: when we look back at the old world. But to 645 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 6: get consumers there, we can't ask them to spend fifteenth 646 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 6: and pounds put a house. To switch from that crappy, inefficient, 647 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 6: sometimes dangerous technology to something that's clean and benign. We 648 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 6: have to take responsibility as companies and to innovate to 649 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 6: bring the prices down rather. 650 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:14,800 Speaker 7: Than just ask for the handouts. 651 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 6: And so for example, you know, we've just launched a 652 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,919 Speaker 6: heat pump that you know, the uniqu cost about fifteen 653 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 6: hundred pounds will come down to one thousand, will soon 654 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 6: be able to. In fact, today in the right homes 655 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 6: we can replace them for not a lot more than 656 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 6: a gas boiler. But I think again back to rules point, 657 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 6: government policy is bizarrely holding all this back. So in 658 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 6: the UK you need planning permission for many heat pumps. 659 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 6: You literally need to ask the council for it takes 660 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 6: six weeks minimum. Most councils don't know how to handle it, 661 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 6: and so you have consumers who are now really interested 662 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 6: in this new, upgraded, clean technology, but they literally can't 663 00:35:54,000 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 6: get it because of outdated, unnecessary laws. Similarly, across Europe, 664 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 6: electricity is far more heavily taxed than gas, and we 665 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 6: do need carbon taxes, but even before that, we need 666 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 6: to get rid of this bonker's counterproductive thing where we 667 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 6: tax the clean fuel, making it less and less efficient 668 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 6: for consumers to run clean technologies. And we need price signals. 669 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 6: At the moment, the price of electricity is set in 670 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 6: most countries, pretty much all of Europe, by the price 671 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 6: of gas. And as you said, although its we build 672 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 6: more renewables, are more sort of time periods in which 673 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 6: renewables set the price. If we had dynamic local pricing, 674 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 6: people could be running their heat pumps using smart controls, 675 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 6: automated algorithms that are grabbing the electricity when it's cheapest 676 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 6: and keeping their home more compliments ever been on a 677 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,879 Speaker 6: gas boiler. If we do all this, by the way, 678 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 6: heat pumps are already going to be cheaper for the 679 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 6: vast majority of homes. So I think we have the technologies. 680 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 6: Unfortunately we have outdated taxes and rules which prevent it. 681 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 6: It's obviously the same with hermitting for wind and solar, 682 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 6: and so I think we very quickly now need governments 683 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 6: to catch where where business is going, and business needs 684 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 6: to take responsibility for cremet patter solutions. 685 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 3: George your thoughts next generation in climate, how to get 686 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 3: it on track? 687 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 4: I think there are two speeds on the consumer related technologies. 688 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 4: I think consumers are picking up both in terms of 689 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:32,240 Speaker 4: heat pumps, solar in the roof, chargers, lead lighting, energy 690 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,320 Speaker 4: efficiency on the house. There are a lot of schemes 691 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 4: we do a lot in Greece, in a lot of 692 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 4: countries is picking up and the customers are really coming 693 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 4: into it. And I think the more we have more 694 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 4: tools and technologies this will go further. On the other hand, 695 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 4: new technologies are which could be of a bigger scale, 696 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 4: like hydrogen is lacking behind hydrogen which can be a 697 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 4: seasonal store or it can help to to de carbonize 698 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 4: our debate. Sectors does not have the same support as 699 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,720 Speaker 4: it does in the US, for instance with the IRA, 700 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 4: so there's no market, there is no clear let me say, 701 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 4: price signal to help investing there. I want us to 702 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 4: remember how it was when solar and WIN ten fifteen 703 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 4: years ago. They were not yet competitive, but they got support. 704 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 4: This is how we need to look on these kind 705 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 4: of technologies, so we need to nurture them they when 706 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 4: they are let's say it's still developing. 707 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 2: And. 708 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 4: I would expect governments and institutions and European institution to 709 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 4: give a big support as well. On the consumer related stuff, 710 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 4: I'm much more optimistic that things will go better. 711 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 2: Thank you, Rue. You get the last word. 712 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 3: And then I think Dan's going to ask us some questions. 713 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 5: Sure well, I think George said it. Twenty years ago 714 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 5: solar was two hundred and twenty percent more expensive than coal. 715 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 5: Today is what fifty percent cheaper, seventy percent cheaper. And 716 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 5: the reason why because it had very clear framework to 717 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 5: invest and. 718 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 2: Therefore develop the technology. We need to have that. 719 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 5: For example, for green hydrogen EEDP got awarded for six 720 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 5: projects in Iberia Peninsula two hundred million euros of funds. 721 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 5: It was perhaps the most cumbersome complex processes we went 722 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 5: through over the last two years. It's super hard and 723 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 5: it's not enough, so we will not make an investment decision, 724 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 5: so we'll need to take another year or so, you know, 725 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 5: piles of papers. 726 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 2: We need to simplify that. 727 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 5: So I think there's an element there of how can 728 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 5: we actually streamline make everybody lives easier to deploy capital 729 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 5: into these new technologies. 730 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 2: But there's another element. 731 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 5: If you think, for example, storage bettery storage in the 732 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 5: UK is probably the only market in Europe where we 733 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 5: can actually decide to invent on the center lane base 734 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 5: because there is a stacking of revenues that you know, 735 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,720 Speaker 5: makes a business case. Nobody else or sorry, nowhere else 736 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 5: in Europe. We are seeing that fundamentally because of regulation. 737 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 5: Regulation is not allowing to capture you know, the ancillary 738 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 5: services and the different dynamic you know on the peak 739 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,720 Speaker 5: of peak and capacity market. 740 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 2: So is not a longing for this to happen. 741 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 5: It doesn't require a subsidy, it doesn't require some support. 742 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 5: It does require, however, that we have that regulatory evolution 743 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 5: so that we can then make our business decisions. 744 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 2: Fantastic, Thank you Danner. Over to you. 745 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: So we have a skeptic in the room when it 746 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: comes to renewables being cheap when you think about it 747 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: at the end consumer retail price. So the question comes 748 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: down to whether or not once we consider other costs, 749 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: including grid, which comes into the agenda a little bit 750 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 1: later today, whether or not renewables always are the cheaper 751 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: option when it comes to retail. 752 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 7: Great. 753 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 6: Sure, we've got lots of skeptics in the room, but 754 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 6: you know that's why I say we have to literally, 755 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 6: first of all, put our mindset into the new system 756 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 6: we need to build. The reality at the moment is 757 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 6: that when it's windy and sonny, we can generate electrics 758 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 6: a few pence per kill hour and consumers are currently 759 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 6: paying in the UK twenty seven that we don't expose 760 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 6: to the consumer the system price is anywhere near enough. 761 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 6: And the system isn't just the generating price, but it's 762 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,240 Speaker 6: also the price of the infrastructure. 763 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 7: All of that is flat priced. 764 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 6: So currently it cost the same to generate an electron 765 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 6: next door and transmit it as it does to generate 766 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 6: it at the other end of the country and transmit it. 767 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 6: That's crazy, right, you know, it's absolutely crazy. We don't 768 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 6: have price signals that enable a more efficient use of 769 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 6: the system when it's windy. In Scotland, we currently spend 770 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 6: I think last year we spent several billion pounds turning 771 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 6: off wind farms instead of just giving Scottish people cheap electricity. 772 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 6: There's currently a moratorium on building new data centers, warehouses 773 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 6: and homes to the west of London because we can't 774 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,439 Speaker 6: get any electricity to them. If we had super cheap 775 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 6: electricity in Scotland when it's windy, plenty of data centers 776 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 6: would move there by the way, that would also then 777 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 6: free up more electricity for things like homes in England. 778 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 6: Price singles work in every other part of our economy. 779 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 6: When Margaret Thatcher hosted Mike mcaal Gorbachev in nineteen eighty 780 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 6: as they went round London, he said, why are there 781 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,879 Speaker 6: accusing the shops? Who does your central planning? And he said, 782 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 6: Margaret Thatcher said, it's price singles market forces. Yet in 783 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 6: electricity we still have God's plan and we really need 784 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 6: now to understand that everyone here is a capitalist, I hope, 785 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 6: and understands that efficient allocation of resources comes when new 786 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 6: unleash price singles. 787 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: So I think I know your answer to the next question, 788 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: which is one. 789 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,439 Speaker 2: Of the overrated underrated categories. 790 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:03,240 Speaker 1: Which is government intervention in power prices. Clearly you stand 791 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: on that being overrated. How about the other panelists. 792 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 5: Well, I actually mentioned that in the during the you know, 793 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 5: the panle so for example, in Romania, Romanian Poland worked, 794 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 5: I think are two cases where that emergency measures were 795 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 5: poorly implemented to the point that at some point there 796 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 5: was a price cap, so there was a clawback for 797 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 5: every con For you know, if we had the prices 798 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 5: above a center and threshold, would have to return that 799 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 5: to the system. They ignored that we had forward sold 800 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 5: the power. So imagine that I sold forward at ninety, 801 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 5: the clawback was at sixty. Sorry, I sold forward at forty. 802 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 5: The clowback was at sixty. So everything that was if 803 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 5: the price in the market was above sixty, I would 804 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 5: need to hand back to the government or to the 805 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 5: system something I never earned. So the problem with the 806 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 5: price setting has in my view has to and there 807 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,320 Speaker 5: are two implications. One is that it doesn't allow the 808 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,360 Speaker 5: market to operate, and therefore you don't create the market signals. 809 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 5: You actually don't reduce consumption when you have to because 810 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 5: prices are high exactly because you need do you still 811 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 5: have consumption, so you have to reduce it. Secondly, and 812 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 5: O reminds the confidence of the forthcoming investment because I 813 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 5: don't know what to expect expecting. Thirdly, if poorly implemented 814 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 5: like Poland and Romania, actually I'm losing money. 815 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 2: I actually have to written money that I've never earned. 816 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 5: So yes, the way regulators and governments implement many of 817 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 5: these measures are actually detrimental to what we need to 818 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 5: do in terms of accelerating investment. 819 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 4: Well, clearly we are in sector which is impacted heavily 820 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,759 Speaker 4: by regulators and governments. 821 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:45,800 Speaker 2: This is not a secret. 822 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 4: On the other hand, we need to think that we 823 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,440 Speaker 4: have the same agenda the end somehow the politicians, because 824 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 4: we really want to have a very competitive price into 825 00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 4: our customers, all of us. You've talked about renewables, if 826 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 4: they are cheaper to the end customer, well, they're definitely 827 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 4: cheaper in the system. They don't necessarily see it in 828 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 4: the retail I understand, but they also don't see the highs, 829 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 4: so they see something flat. So I agree with Greg, 830 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 4: we need to go more in more dynamic tools. But 831 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,399 Speaker 4: this in reality is happening. I mean with the mold, 832 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,839 Speaker 4: the consumers are becoming active and more active with new 833 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 4: technologies hit pumps, solar. They get exposed and they have 834 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 4: the benefits as well of this technology. So I think 835 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 4: I'm quite optimist. I mean that we are linked to 836 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 4: the government and the politicians, but I think we all 837 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 4: want to go in say, the same direction, and we're 838 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:45,839 Speaker 4: getting there. 839 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: Albert, over to you for final views. 840 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 841 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 3: To be honest, it's been a great discussion, and I'm 842 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 3: actually thinking now if we have this discussion again, we 843 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 3: need to change the title to. 844 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 2: Accelerating the Zero Transition in. 845 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,719 Speaker 3: Order to provanergy security. So that's my mante. So thanks 846 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 3: very much for joining us. Really appreciate it. 847 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 2: Thank you. 848 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 1: N Bloomberg n EF is a service provided by Bloomberg 849 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: Finance LP and its affiliates. This recording does not constitute, 850 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: nor should it be construed, as investment advice, investment recommendations, 851 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 1: or a recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. 852 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 1: Bloomberg n EF should not be considered as information sufficient 853 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 1: upon which to base an investment decision. 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