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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, how old do you think our listeners are?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think this is a really wide range.

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Speaker 2: I've heard from parents who listen with their little kids,

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Speaker 2: and there are some very elderly retired engineers out there.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. I guess everyone is curious about the universe. But

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Speaker 1: who do you think asks the hardest questions?

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Speaker 2: That's tricky, you know. I think grown ups ask more

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Speaker 2: technical questions, but the kids ask the hardest philosophical questions.

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Speaker 1: So are you saying we're all born philosophers, but then

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Speaker 1: we grow up to become elderly engineers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure if that's a good outcome or

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Speaker 2: a cautionary tale.

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Speaker 1: Definitely a good one. Definitely a good one. So if

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Speaker 1: you're still a philosopher, does that mean you still need

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Speaker 1: to grow up?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Or maybe it means all engineers are cynical.

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Speaker 1: What if you have a doctorate in philosophy, does that

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Speaker 1: mean you're you'll never grow up?

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Speaker 2: You're Peter Pan of Academia.

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Speaker 1: I guess I have a PhD in engineering. So where

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Speaker 1: does that leave me? I'm like an old baby. I

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Speaker 1: am hooorhand May, cartoonist and the author of Oliver's Great

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Speaker 1: Big universe.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at

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Speaker 2: u C Irvine, and I love getting questions from our

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Speaker 2: youngest listeners and then sometimes even meeting them.

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Speaker 1: Mmmm, you don't love getting the questions from the older listeners.

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Speaker 2: I didn't say that.

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Speaker 1: You were very selective there in your preference.

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Speaker 2: I love getting questions from everybody, but I feel a

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Speaker 2: little bit more responsibility when I hear from the younger listeners,

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Speaker 2: because I might end up influencing the path of their

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Speaker 2: lives in some way.

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Speaker 1: WHOA, that is a big responsibility. I would feel the

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Speaker 1: same if I knew that kids remember things beyond what

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Speaker 1: they did last week.

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Speaker 2: Well. I recently heard from a listener who is coming

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Speaker 2: to UC Irvine next year to be a physics major,

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Speaker 2: and she's been listening to our podcast since she was

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Speaker 2: in the seventh grade.

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Speaker 1: WHOA, she's a super fan. Is she going to major

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Speaker 1: in physics? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wow?

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Speaker 1: Are you gonna have her in your class?

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Speaker 2: Maybe set her up for some real disappointment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you have to give her a bad grade.

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Speaker 2: That's what I mean. I feel a real sense of

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Speaker 2: responsibility with these young folks.

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Speaker 1: Or is she gonna pull the I'm a big fan

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Speaker 1: card and then you're gonna give her all a pluses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a softy. Anyway, I give her pretty good grades.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure she's gonna do great and get all a

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Speaker 1: pluses on her own. But anyways, welcome for our podcast,

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Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 1: in which we try.

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Speaker 2: To guide the young and the old alike to an

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Speaker 2: understanding of the mysteries of the universe. We encourage everybody

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Speaker 2: out there to put their brain to the difficult task

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Speaker 2: of trying to wrangle the universe. Who make it make

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Speaker 2: sense to you? As much as that is possible, We

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Speaker 2: want to help guide you along the journey. That's the

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Speaker 2: goal of this podcast.

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Speaker 1: That's right. As the universe gets older and older, so

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Speaker 1: does are understanding of how things work and why things

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Speaker 1: are the way they are, and what we know about

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Speaker 1: the universe from its early days as a baby universe

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Speaker 1: to its now rebellious teenage years. I think.

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Speaker 2: Fortunately I had no hand in guiding the infant universe

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Speaker 2: along its path, so I can't be held responsible for

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Speaker 2: its cold and old state today.

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Speaker 1: I think. But other are parts of the universe that

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Speaker 1: are warm and young, still.

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Speaker 2: Warm, maybe not so young. Everything's pretty old out there.

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Speaker 2: But everything we have learned about the universe comes from

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Speaker 2: people asking questions. People out there in the street, people

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Speaker 2: looking at the night sky, people in laboratories, trying to

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Speaker 2: understand the way the universe works. It all begins with

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Speaker 2: curiosity and asking questions, trying to make it all make

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Speaker 2: sense in your mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, our understanding of the universe is also growing and

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Speaker 1: getting wiser hopefully. And as you said, it all starts

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Speaker 1: with asking questions. Everybody ask questions.

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Speaker 2: Everybody certainly does, and we encourage you to send those

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Speaker 2: questions to us. We answer questions from everybody all across

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Speaker 2: the world, the young people, old people, engineers, non engineers,

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Speaker 2: even philosophers. Just write to us to questions at Danielandjorge

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Speaker 2: dot com. You'll get a response.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes we'd like to take those questions and

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Speaker 1: answer them on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Pretty often I'll get a question and think, ooh,

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Speaker 2: I bet a lot of people have this question, or

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Speaker 2: this one's pretty tricky. I need extra time to dig

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Speaker 2: into it, so we'll talk about it right here on

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Speaker 2: the podcast.

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Speaker 1: So do they On the podcast, We'll be tackling listener

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Speaker 1: questions number fifty seven, and these are real questions from listeners.

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Speaker 2: These are real questions from real listeners. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: assume they're not AI generated. I haven't actually checked.

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Speaker 1: That would be pretty interesting. But wouldn't the AI already

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Speaker 1: know the answer?

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Speaker 2: How do I know the answer? It doesn't know anything.

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Speaker 2: We don't know. It's just like a distillation of human knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Well, or I guess why would it ask you a

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Speaker 1: question if it knows everything you know?

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Speaker 2: Well, AIS don't really think and Louison right, So they

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Speaker 2: might be able to generate simulations of questions, but they

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Speaker 2: aren't actually curious. They're not actually asking questions.

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Speaker 1: Not yet, Daniel, not yet, not yet.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, but.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we do like to answer questions here on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: And so today we have three great questions about why

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Speaker 1: the universe is the way it is, about quantum fields

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Speaker 1: and quantum particles, and about particle decay. A lot of

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Speaker 1: great questions, some tough questions too. Ooh, do we get

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Speaker 1: to grade you then if you fail to answer them?

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Speaker 2: You do that every time. Sometimes you're like, that's not

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Speaker 2: an explanation, that's just a description.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, you know, we gotta have our BS detectors

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Speaker 1: up on high alert here.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, it's on every time.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm Well, let's dig into our first question,

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Speaker 1: and this one comes from a nine year old Peter.

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Speaker 1: Why is the universe the way it is?

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Speaker 2: And could it be any different?

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Speaker 1: All right, a short but powerful question here from Peter.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I think we might just have to give

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Speaker 2: a short and not very powerful answer.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, Peter's nine years old might be influencing

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Speaker 1: his entire future life.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly what I mean. Nine year old's ask

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Speaker 2: sometimes the hardest questions because they're philosophical. Peter is asking

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Speaker 2: us not just to look out in the universe and

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Speaker 2: try to make sense of it, but to understand what

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Speaker 2: that means about the universe. When we figure out the

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Speaker 2: laws and the rules that run the universe, we then

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Speaker 2: also need to explain why they are that way and

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Speaker 2: not some other way. That's not a simple question.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is a pretty deep question from a nine

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Speaker 1: year old. So the question is why is the universe

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Speaker 1: the way it is? And could it be any different?

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Speaker 1: So it seems like a two part question here, like

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Speaker 1: do physicists know why the universe is the way it is.

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Speaker 2: The short answer is we do not. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: might be that there's only one way to make a universe,

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Speaker 2: that universes like have to be mathematically consistent and follow

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Speaker 2: mathematical laws, and that there's only just one way to

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Speaker 2: do it, even if we don't yet understand what that

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Speaker 2: way is. It might be that there's that kind of requirement,

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Speaker 2: but we don't know.

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Speaker 1: Wait, what do you mean? It depends on the math.

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Speaker 1: Like maybe at the fundamental level of the universe, the

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Speaker 1: deepest level, it's all math and logic.

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Speaker 2: I mean that the current program is basically try to

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Speaker 2: write down a bunch of equations that explain everything that's happening,

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Speaker 2: and then make those equations as simple as possible. Right, Like,

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Speaker 2: it's not hard to write down a bunch of stuff

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Speaker 2: that explains everything that's happening. You could just write down everything,

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Speaker 2: you see. The goal of physics is to take a

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Speaker 2: long list of observations and describe it with a simple,

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Speaker 2: compact explanation. That's really what an explanation is. That's what

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Speaker 2: makes it an explanation and not just a description. Right

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Speaker 2: That it carries this like predictive power and its compact

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Speaker 2: more economical than just saying everything you're seeing. So we

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Speaker 2: try to do that mathematically, and we try to make

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Speaker 2: that as simple as possible. And imagine sometime far in

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Speaker 2: the future when we figured that all out and we've

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Speaker 2: been able to explain everything we see, and now we're

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Speaker 2: looking at the math of the universe, we can still ask,

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Speaker 2: and this is basically what Peter's asking, why this math

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Speaker 2: and not some other math. There are some times that

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Speaker 2: we can argue why some kinds of math are not allowed,

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Speaker 2: you know, like we require this symmetry, or we require

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Speaker 2: to base this property or something. Some kind of math

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Speaker 2: just wouldn't work, you know, they would give nonsense answers.

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Speaker 2: And so I think one possible outcome of that eventual

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Speaker 2: journey is that we get to a single equation and

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Speaker 2: we understand why it has to be that equation. It's

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Speaker 2: the only equation it could possibly be, because no other

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Speaker 2: equations work. But another possible outcome is, oh, well, we

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Speaker 2: get to an explanation and you know what, it could

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Speaker 2: have been something else, Like we have no reason to

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Speaker 2: think that there couldn't have been another set of laws

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Speaker 2: that create a universe. So number one, we're not close

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Speaker 2: to figuring out what the laws of the universe, and

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Speaker 2: number two, we don't really know yet how to interpret

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Speaker 2: what it means when we do.

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Speaker 1: Are you saying, maybe the only way we'll ever know

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Speaker 1: why the universe is the way it is is through math.

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Speaker 2: That's currently the only way we're getting in the understanding.

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Speaker 2: But you know, to make this even more complicated and fuzzy,

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Speaker 2: we're also not guaranteed that math, or that our math

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Speaker 2: is sufficient to explain the universe. We could also run

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Speaker 2: into an obstacle where we were like, hmm, well we

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Speaker 2: can't use our math to explain the universe. That doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean that the universe can't be explained. It might just

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Speaker 2: be that our math is not sufficient. Maybe there's kinds

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Speaker 2: of math we haven't invented yet, or there's some fundamental

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Speaker 2: assumption and the way we're doing math that prevents us

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Speaker 2: from describing the universe. Or maybe we're just not smart enough.

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Speaker 2: There could be math that's beyond our mental capability that's

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Speaker 2: required to explain the universe. Or maybe the universe just

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Speaker 2: isn't mathematical, you know, maybe math is just like a

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Speaker 2: language in our minds, not something that's fundamental to the universe.

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Speaker 2: There are lots of philosophical rabbit holes there.

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Speaker 1: But do you think maybe the universe has to be

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Speaker 1: math mathematically consistently. Can you imagine a scenario where the universe,

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Speaker 1: like we dig it deep into the nature of the

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Speaker 1: universe and we find that the universe is not mathematically consistent?

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Speaker 1: What would that mean?

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Speaker 2: That certainly is possible. You know, a lot of the

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Speaker 2: universe is very difficult for us to describe mathematically. You know, take,

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Speaker 2: for example, something that's simple. You drop a ball and

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Speaker 2: you describe how it falls. We can do that. Cool.

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Speaker 2: Now take that ball and make it a leaf. Well,

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Speaker 2: that's more complicated because the leaf depends on the air

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Speaker 2: and the currents now. Make it like a thousand leaves

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Speaker 2: and add a bunch of fans. It's way too complicated

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Speaker 2: for us to describe using our mathematics. And it might

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Speaker 2: also be that it can't be described with our mathematics.

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Speaker 2: There are philosophers out there that say that these complex

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Speaker 2: regions that are very challenging for us to describe might

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Speaker 2: not even be governed by physical laws. There could be

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Speaker 2: no mathematical explanation for it. It's kind of a fringe

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Speaker 2: view in philosophy, But it's definitely a possibility.

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Speaker 1: Meaning like you might get to a place down into

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Speaker 1: the deep levels of the universe where there's not even math,

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Speaker 1: like the idea of logic doesn't make any logical sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it could certainly be. I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: people have in their minds the idea that the universe

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Speaker 2: follows a very basic, simple set of laws, and that

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Speaker 2: everything we experience emerges from that, the way that like

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Speaker 2: molecules emerge from how protons and neutrons and electrons come together.

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Speaker 2: But it could also be that the universe is quite

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Speaker 2: different from that, that we have like islands of simplicity

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Speaker 2: that we can understand with our mathematical laws, but that

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Speaker 2: the rest is chaotic and undescribable, because fundamentally we don't

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Speaker 2: understand why anything is understandable, why simplicity ever emerges, why

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Speaker 2: there are scenarios that you can describe with pretty simple

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Speaker 2: mathematical laws, even though there's a lot of stuff going

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Speaker 2: on underneath. So we're not guaranteed to be able to

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Speaker 2: understand the universe, or that the universe even is understandable

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Speaker 2: or sensible.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you could also maybe get to a

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Speaker 1: point where we figure out that math doesn't work the

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Speaker 1: way we think it does. Like, for example, I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: like we learn in school that all the angles inside

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Speaker 1: of a triangle have to add up to a one

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Speaker 1: hundred and eighty degrees, and you just take that as

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Speaker 1: a rule. That's just the way geometry in math works.

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Speaker 1: But that rule doesn't work if you draw a triangle

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Speaker 1: like on the surface of a ball, for example, like

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Speaker 1: the angles add up to more than one eighty degrees.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if what we think of as math is

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Speaker 1: really just like one version of math, or it doesn't

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Speaker 1: always work yea and one plus one maybe is not

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Speaker 1: always two?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. We might need some new creative generalizations of

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Speaker 2: our kind of math in order to describe the universe.

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Speaker 2: And we've already seen that several times. You're absolutely right,

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Speaker 2: Like going from just real numbers two complex numbers was

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Speaker 2: a huge mental step and allowed us crucially to develop

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Speaker 2: the tools that explain quantum mechanics. We talked in the

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Speaker 2: podcast once about developing quaternions, which are like complex numbers

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Speaker 2: with one real and three imaginary numbers, and octonians with

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Speaker 2: seven numbers, and we haven't even figured out what they're

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Speaker 2: useful for So there could certainly be kinds of math

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Speaker 2: we haven't invented yet that we need to explain the universe.

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Speaker 2: M Well.

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Speaker 1: The other part of Peter's question was could the universe

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Speaker 1: be any different? Like could we maybe have the same

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Speaker 1: rules but then have a totally different universe?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that depends a little bit on what you mean

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Speaker 2: by rules. You know, you can mean, for example, the

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Speaker 2: values of all the physical constants, like what is the

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Speaker 2: mass of the electron and what is the mass of

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Speaker 2: the proton and all this kind of stuff that we

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Speaker 2: think could be different because that just depends on the

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Speaker 2: energy in the Higgs field, which is set as the

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Speaker 2: universe cools very very early on, and that could be different.

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Speaker 2: Or you could be talking about more fundamentally, like the

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Speaker 2: actual laws of quantum fields. Could those be different? And

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Speaker 2: that's also possible. There's some theories of our early universe

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Speaker 2: that say that, like, our entire universe is just one

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Speaker 2: bubble in a huge multiverse filled with universe bubbles, and

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Speaker 2: in each of them the physical laws could be different.

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Speaker 2: We don't understand how the universe started or where the

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Speaker 2: first hot, dense state initiated, and so it could be

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Speaker 2: that each of those came into being from some previous state,

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Speaker 2: and as they cool and create these bubble universes, that

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Speaker 2: some random physical laws are created, and so there could

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Speaker 2: be different laws.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that brings up maybe the real question

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Speaker 1: about Peter's question, which is is it even possible to

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Speaker 1: know why the universe is the way it is or

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Speaker 1: whether it could be any different? Like, as you said,

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Speaker 1: there might be other universes out there with different rules,

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Speaker 1: but maybe by definition we can never get to them

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Speaker 1: or communicate with them, or actually figure out if they exist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we'll never experience those other universes if

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Speaker 2: they do exist. This idea is called eternal inflation, and

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Speaker 2: in that model, these bubble universes are expanding away from

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Speaker 2: each other much much faster than the speed of life

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Speaker 2: forever and so essentially impossible for us to ever experience

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Speaker 2: them or communicate with them. But you know, we can

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Speaker 2: think about the multiverse, even if we're only in our universe.

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Speaker 2: We can think about other universes and whether they could

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Speaker 2: possibly exist. We might get some clues from the structure

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Speaker 2: of our universe and the laws that define it that

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Speaker 2: give us an idea for how you might change those

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Speaker 2: things like if we look at the fundamental laws of

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Speaker 2: physics and there's a couple of arbitrary numbers in them,

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Speaker 2: like a seven or a three or one point two four,

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Speaker 2: then you can make arguments like, well, that could have

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Speaker 2: been anything else. That could have been some other number,

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Speaker 2: and so you could imagine another universe where that number

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Speaker 2: is just different, or it could be we get to

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Speaker 2: the fundamental law of the universe and there are no

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Speaker 2: numbers and in no arbitrary choices, there's only one that

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Speaker 2: makes mathematical sense. Then you might argue that any universe

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Speaker 2: that's created has to be the same because there's only

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Speaker 2: one choice for those set of laws.

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Speaker 1: Right, we can always maybe imagine a different universe with

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Speaker 1: different numbers, or maybe a universe where the laws where differently,

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Speaker 1: or where math doesn't work at all. I guess what

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to say is, since we can never experience

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Speaker 1: or even tap into these other universes, does that mean

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Speaker 1: we'll never get confirmation of these theories or these ideas

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Speaker 1: that we have.

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Speaker 2: We definitely can't do it definitively by experiencing those other universes.

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Speaker 2: One way we could try to get maybe a hint

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Speaker 2: about it, is to talk to aliens about science. Imagine

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Speaker 2: if aliens come and we talk to them about science

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Speaker 2: and they have a completely different theory of the universe,

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Speaker 2: one that works just as well as ours, then what

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Speaker 2: we thought was the way the universe is isn't actually

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Speaker 2: the way the universe is. It's just like our description

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Speaker 2: of it. That tells you that the whole philosophical question

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Speaker 2: is really more about us than about the universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but these other aliens would also be trapped in

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Speaker 1: the same universe we're in, so they would never also

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Speaker 1: maybe be able to actually know for sure or get

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Speaker 1: experimental evidence that the universe could have been some other way,

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Speaker 1: or even why the universe is the way it is exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's a scenario where nobody would know how the universe

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Speaker 2: actually is, because it suggests that all of our physical

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Speaker 2: theories ours the aliens. Anybody's peters are just descriptions. They're

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Speaker 2: not revealing the truth about the universe. But on the

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Speaker 2: other hand, if those aliens do have the same theories

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Speaker 2: of physics, and we meet like five hundred other alien

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Speaker 2: races and they all have exactly the same theories of physics,

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Speaker 2: that suggests that maybe there is something about these maybe

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Speaker 2: we have uncovered some truth and maybe we can learn

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Speaker 2: something about the way the universe actually is and whether

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Speaker 2: it could be different.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It seems like we're all stuck in

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Speaker 1: the same universe, so we all have the same limited view.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, this is just one way to measure like

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Speaker 2: whether we're actually learning something about the universe or we

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Speaker 2: all just reflecting the way our minds work. But it's

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Speaker 2: definitely not a way to see other universes or to

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Speaker 2: really understand There are some other hints in current theories

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Speaker 2: of modern physics, like one of the leading candidates for

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Speaker 2: a fundamental theory of the universe is string theory. And

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Speaker 2: one issue in string theory is that there's like ten

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Speaker 2: to the five hundred different string theories, all of which

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Speaker 2: lead to different universes. And among those theories, one of

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Speaker 2: them corresponds to our universe, and people wonder, like, are

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Speaker 2: all those other universes also possible? Are they out there?

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Speaker 2: People are working on this problem trying to figure out, like,

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Speaker 2: are those other universes really possible or is it just

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Speaker 2: something we haven't learned about them yet? But that's an

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Speaker 2: example of a clue of looking at the fundamental theory

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Speaker 2: and saying like, oh, there's lots of different options here,

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Speaker 2: could have been very different.

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Speaker 3: Hmmm.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, I guess the answer for Peter is

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Speaker 1: grow up to be an engineer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Peter, it's a good question, it's a deep question.

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Speaker 2: The answer is we don't know. We might never know.

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Speaker 1: All right, Thank you, Peter. Now let's get to our

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Speaker 1: other questions. We have questions here about quantum fields and

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Speaker 1: quantum particles and about how particles decay, So let's get

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Speaker 1: to those. But first let's take a quick break. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're answering listener questions here today, and our next question

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Speaker 1: comes from Ann.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Daniel and Horse. Hey, my name is Ann. My

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Speaker 3: question is this, does looking at the rules and the

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Speaker 3: unanswered questions of physics from the perspective of quantum fields

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Speaker 3: rather than particles, yield any new insights. I'm wondering about this,

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Speaker 3: particularly with regard to how the various quantum fields interact

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Speaker 3: with one another. For example, does thinking about entropy and

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Speaker 3: the rules of particle decay from the perspective of the

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Speaker 3: interaction of quantum fields give us any new insights into

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Speaker 3: why of those phenomena? Thank you?

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, I feel like we're getting a lot of

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Speaker 1: philosophical questions and a lot of particle physics questions. Daniel,

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Speaker 1: I wonder how we came to pick these questions.

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Speaker 2: Maybe because we have a podcast about particle physics and

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Speaker 2: I often digress into philosophy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be maybe maybe. Yeah, I sense that

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Speaker 1: little bias praaths.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I see, you think I'm not randomly sampling the

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Speaker 2: questions that we get. I'm definitely not randomly sampling the

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Speaker 2: questions that we get.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I thought you answered all the questions.

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Speaker 2: Oh I answered them all, I just don't put them

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Speaker 2: all on the podcast. Retired engineers who send me their

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Speaker 2: theories of everything, those don't make it on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Oh maybe we should. Let's have an episode where where

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Speaker 1: we tackle all these theories that people send you.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's do it. Everybody out there with your

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Speaker 2: personal theory of the universe. Send it to me. I'll

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Speaker 2: pick the best three and we will go through them

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Speaker 2: on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: All right, challenge issue, let's hear from you. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: this question, I'm not quite sure I understand it, but

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Speaker 1: it's sort of about the different ways to look at

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Speaker 1: the universe from a quantum perspective. One of them is

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Speaker 1: thinking about the universe as quantum fields, and the other

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Speaker 1: one is is quantum particles?

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly. There are sort of two ways to

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Speaker 2: think about the universe in terms of fields or in

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Speaker 2: terms of particles. I think most people intuitively think about

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Speaker 2: the universe in terms of particles, little bits of stuff

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Speaker 2: flying through space, bouncing into each other and interacting. But

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Speaker 2: on the podcast, we're often talking about things in turn

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Speaker 2: of fields and the things and is wondering how do

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Speaker 2: you think about the universe in terms of fields and

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Speaker 2: whether that makes things.

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Speaker 1: Easier easier than thinking about them is particles, right, yeah, exactly. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So then what's the difference between looking at the universe

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Speaker 1: as fields versus looking at it as particles?

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Speaker 2: Well, particles are the things we see. When you see

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Speaker 2: a flash of light on your retina, you're seeing a photon.

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Speaker 2: When you have a screen and you're shooting electrons and stuff,

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Speaker 2: those little dots electrons leave, those are particles you're seeing.

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Speaker 2: So particles are like things we observe. And when people

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Speaker 2: talk about like particles versus waves, what they really mean

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Speaker 2: there by Particles are observations, our measurements are things we're

441
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 2: directly seeing, and so in that sense, particles are like

442
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 2: immediate there are experience of the universe. Fields are kind

443
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 2: of something we imagine. They're part of our description of

444
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 2: why things happen. Like when you have two particles flying

445
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 2: through space, how do they interact with each other? Well,

446
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 2: we imagine that each of them has a field, Like

447
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 2: two electrons both have electric fields, and that's what the

448
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 2: using the push and pull on each other. And then

449
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: we can go even further and imagine, well, those particles

450
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 2: are also just part of a field. Like instead of

451
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: thinking about particles as little dots of stuff, think about

452
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: them as little ripples, special kinds of waves in a

453
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 2: special field and an electron field. And in that picture

454
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: you have like an electron field which also creates an

455
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: electromagnetic field, different thing which then can push on other

456
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 2: bits of the electron field. So there's sort of two

457
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 2: different ways of thinking about the universe, Like start with

458
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 2: the observations that think about the particles or think about

459
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: the fields.

460
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 1: Right, But I guess the question is like what is

461
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: exactly a field? Is it actually like a physical thing

462
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: that exists in the universe, or is it just like

463
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 1: a mathematical description of a physical effect between two things

464
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 1: in the universe.

465
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 2: Boom. You are officially a philosopher, Jorge.

466
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: I know, I have a doctor in a philosophy, Daniel.

467
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: That is a great question nobody knows the answer to.

468
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 2: We do not know if fields are physical things that

469
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 2: exist when physicists are not thinking about them, or if

470
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 2: they're just calculational tools in our minds. That's the essence

471
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 2: of the question of philosophy, of science, of physicalism. You know, essentially,

472
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 2: are all these ideas real or are they just our descriptions.

473
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: And the thing is that we can ever see fields directly.

474
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 2: We only ever see fields impact on particles. How do

475
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 2: you measure an electric field? You're put an electron in

476
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 2: it and you see the effect on the electron. Same

477
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: with magnetic fields. So we don't know if fields are real.

478
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 2: There's even a guy who suggested that fields are made

479
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 2: up and we don't need them, and he invented a

480
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 2: whole new kind of science that didn't even require mathematics.

481
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 2: It's called science without numbers. He's a philosopher, and ironically

482
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 2: his last name is Fields.

483
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: Maybe he should study irony ines.

484
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 2: That Professor Fields proves there are no.

485
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,479
Speaker 1: Fields but I guess maybe I wonder if you can

486
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: make an argument that fields are tangible or not that

487
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: they're not tangible, Like do fields have energy inherent in

488
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: them or mass or does this energy that particles and

489
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: the massive particles have does it come into existence when

490
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: the particles are created.

491
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 2: Fields themselves definitely have energy. They can have potential energy,

492
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: and that can have kinetic energy, and they can oscillate.

493
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: So if they are real, then they're out there, you know,

494
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 2: swishing and slashing around and doing things and some kinds

495
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: of oscillations we observe as particles even when we're not

496
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: observing them. They can have energy, like the Higgs field

497
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: has a bunch of potential energy stored in it, and

498
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: that potential energy affects how other fields oscillate, and so

499
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: those fields definitely have energy.

500
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,959
Speaker 1: But where is that energy? I guess, like is it

501
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: floating out there in space? Is it in between my particles?

502
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: Or does that energy come into existence when that field

503
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 1: gets activated? You know what I mean? Like, does it

504
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: come from somewhere or does it just get magically created

505
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: when you need it?

506
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: It doesn't just get magically created, though, I would love

507
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: that while I'm going to create a power plant that

508
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 2: relies on magical creation of energy. That sounds awesome.

509
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: Well, that is what's happening in the universe, though, isn't it.

510
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: As the universe expands, the energy is coming out and nothing.

511
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: No, you're absolutely right. As space is expanding, energy is

512
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 2: increases and it's not coming from anywhere, it's not coming

513
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 2: out of nothing. It just increases. And that tells you

514
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: that energy is not actually a fundamental quantity in the universe.

515
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: That's sort of a complication. You can also imagine flat

516
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 2: space that's not expanding, and in that situation energy is served.

517
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: And we could talk about how energy flows between fields,

518
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: and I think that's something and was sort of asking about,

519
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: like to get a picture of how energy is flowing.

520
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: If you have the picture of the universe is all fields,

521
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: you know, you're asking like, where's that energy come from?

522
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: And so start with the photon. For example, a photon

523
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: is a pulse in the electromagnetic fields. It's a traveling wave,

524
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 2: it's a ripple in that field, and that's energy it's

525
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: flying through the universe. Now, imagine that photon then converts

526
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: into an electron and a positron, so two particles that

527
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: actually have mass. Right, You've gone from a massless photon,

528
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: which is a special kind of ripple in the electromagnetic field,

529
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 2: into two matter particles. While that energy flows from the

530
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: electromagnetic field into the electron field and creates two special

531
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 2: ripples in the electron field. That energy has flowed into

532
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: the electron field.

533
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: Does it technically flow from one field to the other

534
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: or does it get annihilated and then it somehow gets

535
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: created in the other field.

536
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 2: I guess I'm not sure what the distinction is there.

537
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: Mathematically we talk about these fields interacting. They couple together,

538
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: so energy is transferred from one field to the other.

539
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 2: It never exists in some sort of in between state,

540
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 2: not in any fields, either in this field or in

541
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: that field.

542
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: All right, Well, maybe a part of the question that

543
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 1: Ann is asking, or at least that I have about

544
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: Ann's question, is like, why do we have to pick

545
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: between a field's view and a particle view of the universe?

546
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: Aren't they all part of the same view. Aren't particles

547
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: just ripples and the fields and aren't fields just what

548
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: ripples to make a particle?

549
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. They are fundamentally different views

550
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 2: of what's the basic stuff in the universe. The particle

551
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: of view is saying particles are the fundamental building blocks

552
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: of everything. Everything is a particle. And in that description,

553
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 2: when two electrons are flying along and they're pushing on

554
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: each other, there's no field between them. They're shooting virtual

555
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 2: particles back and forth, and so there just are no

556
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: fields in that picture. It's all particles. And in the

557
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 2: field's picture, the fields are the fundamental building block of

558
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: the universe. They are at the root of everything, and

559
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 2: particles are just ripples in those fields, including photons and

560
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: including electrons and including everything. Now, both of these theories work.

561
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: They give exactly the same predictions for all experiments. They're

562
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 2: mathematically equivalent. An infinite number of virtual particles is the

563
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 2: same as a field that has exactly the same effect.

564
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 2: You get exactly the same answer.

565
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: Wait, did you say an infinite number of particles? What

566
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: do you mean?

567
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: The version of the story where you have virtual particles

568
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: instead of fields requires an infinite number of virtual particles

569
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 2: to give the same explanation as you get from fields.

570
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: Like an infinite number in the universe, or like in

571
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 1: my hand.

572
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: An infinite number for every interaction, every electron pushing against

573
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: another electron technically involves an infinite number of possible virtual

574
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: particles because they're not observed, and so like that virtual

575
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: photon could have had this momentum or that momentum or

576
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 2: slightly different momentum. It's the sort of path integral version

577
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: of quantum mechanics. We integrate over every unobserved possibility.

578
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: But I guess could the answer be just like it's both.

579
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: Well, that sort of goes to your question, like what's

580
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: really happening out there in the universe. Fundamentally it's a

581
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: philosophy question because the physics works either way. But we

582
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: want to know, or we want to know the truth

583
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: about the universe, like what's really happening out there? And

584
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: only one of those at most is true. It could

585
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: be that they're both wrong. It's neither particles nor fields.

586
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 2: It's something else quigly knows, or something right, or some

587
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 2: other idea. But I like to believe that there is

588
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: a truth that something is happening out there in the

589
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: universe and it could be described, and I'd like to

590
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: know which it is. So if particles or fields, if

591
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: one of those makes more sense somehow is more compact,

592
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: then maybe it's more likely to be what's really happening

593
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: out there in the universe. But it's a great example

594
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: of what we were talking about a minute ago about

595
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 2: how you can have multiple explanations for the universe and

596
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: not know what's really.

597
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: Happening, right right, Like, I wonder if you can ask,

598
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: does the universe actually care?

599
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: I care, and I'm part of the universe.

600
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: Like maybe the universe doesn't care. Maybe there isn't a

601
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: need in the universe for things to make one thing

602
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: to make more sense than the other in.

603
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,719
Speaker 2: This little corner of the universe that I call Daniel Whitson,

604
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: there's a strong need for the universe to make sense.

605
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: Well, I guess that makes sense because you are a physicist.

606
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: We're all philosophists out there, right, and philosophers we all

607
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: want to know how the universe works and what it means, right, Peter, right.

608
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: Right, we all need to grow up polluted or not.

609
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you Ann for that awesome question.

610
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: Now let's get to our last question of the day,

611
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: and this one is about how particles decay. So let's

612
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:20,959
Speaker 1: get to that. But first, let's take another quick break. Right,

613
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: we're tackling listener questions, and so Our next question comes

614
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: from Alchilan, a twelfth grade student in India.

615
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 4: Hello, I'm a twelfth grade student in India. So here's

616
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 4: my question. In negative beta decay, a neutron is converted

617
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 4: into a proton, an electron, and an anti neutrino. We

618
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 4: know that a neutron is made of quirks, So where

619
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 4: did the anti neutrino and the electron come from?

620
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: Really?

621
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: All right, pretty basic question, Daniel. How does it work?

622
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: How does anything work?

623
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: How does the universe all work? Anyway? Yeah? Cool question,

624
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: And it's a fun question because it gives you a

625
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: little bit of a window into the history of physics

626
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: because what we thought about beta decay changed over the

627
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: last hundred years as our understanding of fundamental physics changed. Like,

628
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: we've seen beta d K for a long time. These days,

629
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: we have an explanation of it in terms of quarks,

630
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: but we've been studying and thinking about beta decay long

631
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: before we even knew about quarks.

632
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: Well, me, let's take a step back and tell what

633
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: exactly is beta decay?

634
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so betak's when you have a neutron and it

635
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: turns into a proton. Not because charge is concerned in

636
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: the universe. You can't just turn a neutral neutron into

637
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: a positively charged proton. You have to also create something

638
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: else to balance the charge. So a neutron decays, it

639
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: produces a proton plus an electron, and then, because the

640
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: universe doesn't allow you to just make electrons, it keeps

641
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: track of the number of electrons in the universe, you

642
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: have to also make something to balance the number of electrons. Fortunately,

643
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: electron neutrinos also count as electrons, so if you make

644
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: an anti electron neutrino, then you balance all the accounting.

645
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: So neutron turns into a proton, an electron, and an

646
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: anti electron neutrino.

647
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: Wow, this is a very specific event. Why do they

648
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: call it a decay in the first place.

649
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: They call it a decay because a neutron is turning

650
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: into something else, and decay is just what we mean

651
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: when particles transform. Really we call it decay. It sounds

652
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: like they're breaking up out of old age or something,

653
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: but it's really just an interaction of transformation.

654
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like they're you know, like rotten.

655
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, like I bought this thing.

656
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: Well, I'm trying to say, is doesn't the proton, the electron,

657
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: and the anti neutrino feel offended that they're the product

658
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: of a decay.

659
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: What's offensive about being a decay product? You know, that's great.

660
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: I'm a product of my parents and then my parents decay, right,

661
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just the way of the universe.

662
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: No, But what if I say, like, you're the product

663
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: of your parents decaying.

664
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: I don't know how to feel about that. Yeah, exact

665
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: protons don't have any feelings. I don't think they care

666
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 2: unless you believe in panpsychism.

667
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: Well, so is this beta decay an important interaction or

668
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: transformation that happens in particle physics? Does it happen a lot?

669
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: Is it significant? Is it important for any sort of

670
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: big process?

671
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: I think it's really important because it reveals a lot

672
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: about the way the universe works, and historically it's been

673
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: the source of a lot of discoveries. So neutrons are

674
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: actually unstable in general. Like you have a neutron out

675
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: there in the universe, it'll lasts for like about eleven

676
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 2: minutes on its own before it beta decays into a proton,

677
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: electron and an anti neutrino, And it reveals something about

678
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: the universe, like the reason we discovered neutrinos was because

679
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: of beta decay. People were looking at neutrons and they

680
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: saw them break up into protons and electrons, but the

681
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: neutrino was invisible. Neutrinos hardly ever interact, and so nobody

682
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: saw the neutrino. And it's only because they noticed that

683
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: the momentum didn't add up like you had the momentum

684
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 2: of the experiment before and after the decay, and they

685
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: didn't equal each other. People were wondering, hmm, is momentum

686
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: not conserved in the universe or is there some little

687
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: invisible particle carrying off that momentum? And that's how the

688
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: neutrino was first postulated.

689
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: Interesting now, I guess maybe a question I have is

690
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: how do you even get a neutron on its own

691
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: to see it decay?

692
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: I think you can just order them on Amazon, right.

693
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: Can you really? Next day? Is it free shipping because

694
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: technically it's neutral.

695
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 2: No, you cannot just order neutrons because they're unstable. So

696
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: unless Amazon can deliver them to you in less than

697
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: eleven minutes, you're going to get a box of proutons, electrons,

698
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: and neutrino.

699
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: Well they have. They just put them in a cooler.

700
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 1: Isn't that how it works?

701
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, right exactly. Or you can accelerate them near the

702
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 2: speed of light so their time is dilated or.

703
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: I guess I mean like in those early days, in

704
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: those experiments, how did they isolate a neutron to see

705
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: what it decayed into?

706
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, good question. We actually have a whole episode about

707
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 2: the discovery of the neutron. It's a little bit subtle

708
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: because the neutron is neutral, but there's some really fascinating

709
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: early experiments to prove that the neutron exists and has

710
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 2: a different math a the proton. But basically the neutron

711
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 2: is produced in radioactive decay. So in big heavy nuclei

712
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: I break apart, they often produce neutrons in the process

713
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: because you start out with like a huge pile of

714
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 2: protons and neutrons, sometimes more than one hundred, and you

715
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: make lighter atoms and you don't need always all those neutrons,

716
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 2: and so some of them fly out. So if you

717
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 2: have like uranium or other radioactive substances, they will just

718
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 2: produce neutrons and you can use them to study well.

719
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: I see, they just like emanate neutrons, like they just

720
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: shoot off neutrons in all directions.

721
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Yes, so they're sources of neutrons all right.

722
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: Then Aileen's question was how does it work? Like, how

723
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: does I guess? How does any decay work, or how

724
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: does any of these particle transformations work. I feel like

725
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: that's what he's trying to get at, you know, is

726
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: like what's actually happening. Does it actually transform or does

727
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: it annihilate into pure energy or does it go into

728
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: the void of the universe and then come back. It's

729
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: a different thing. What's going on?

730
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think something Aline is trying to get at

731
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 2: is like, were the neutro trino and the electron inside

732
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: the neutron? Like if a neutron breaks up into a proton,

733
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 2: electron and neutrino, does that mean it was made of

734
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 2: those things? That's sort of what we expect in chemistry.

735
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: For example, when you take water and you make it

736
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: into hydrogen and oxygen, that tells you water was made

737
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 2: of hydrogen and oxygen. But that's not true in particle physics.

738
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 2: It's something very very different going on. As you say,

739
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 2: new particles can be created from the energy of the

740
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: other particles sexually related to what we were talking about

741
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: a minute ago. The energy can slide from one kind

742
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 2: of field into another kind of field. So he's asking

743
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: where did the neutrino and the electron come from. They

744
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: weren't inside the neutron. They were made from the energy

745
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,439
Speaker 2: that was stored inside.

746
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: The neutron, meaning like the neutron became pure energy and

747
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: then that energy manifested itself as other particles close.

748
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: And that's actually what Fermi's theory was. Fermi didn't know

749
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 2: what was going on inside the neutron, so he had

750
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: this idea that maybe neutrons of protons are fundamental particles,

751
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: and the neutron is disappearing, and then that energy is

752
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 2: turning into a proton, electron and anti neutrino. These days,

753
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: we know that's not actually true. We have a more

754
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: detailed understanding what's happening. As Achilon says, these particles are

755
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 2: made of quarks, So the proton is three quarks up,

756
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 2: up and down. So a neutron is three quarks and

757
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: up and two down quarks, and beta decay is when

758
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: one of those two down quarks flips to being an upquark.

759
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: So you go from up down down to up up down.

760
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: That's going from neutron to proton.

761
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: Wait, what do you mean it flips like just randomly

762
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: or does it read something on the internet and then

763
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: decided to switch sides.

764
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: Well, this is particle decay. Neutrons are unstable. Sometimes randomly

765
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: they will convert into a proton, electron and anti neutrino

766
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: because that's what the universe likes to do. It likes

767
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: to spread its energy out. The neutron is sort of

768
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: like a high energy combination of these particles, and the

769
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: universe likes to decay down to lower energy states because

770
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: there are more possibilities there. It's essentially entropy at the

771
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: particle level. We have a whole podcast about why particles

772
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: decay at all.

773
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: So then these new arrangement of particles that are created

774
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: are less energy than the neutron.

775
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. The proton is lower energy than the neutron,

776
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 2: and that's why the proton is stable and doesn't decay

777
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 2: into a neutron because the neutron is a higher energy

778
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: combination of these particles, and that energy gets turned temporarily

779
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: into a w boson. A w boson then turns into

780
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: the electron and anti neutrino, so that energy.

781
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: Wait, why do you need this intermediate step?

782
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: Why do you need that intermediate step? Is a great question.

783
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 2: This is a description of what's happening in the universe.

784
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: This is only mathematically consistent and accurate description of what

785
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: we see. Could you invent a universe without a w

786
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: boson where this happens directly, maybe that would be a

787
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: different universe. We definitely know that there is a w

788
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 2: boson made.

789
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: Like, how do you know there is an intermediate step?

790
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: How do you know it isn't just converting directly?

791
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 2: Yea, it's a great question. And when people came up

792
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: with this theory, they predicted that the w boson was

793
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: a thing, and if it was, we should be able

794
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 2: to see it in high energy colliders. And we built

795
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: a large electron positron collider at Cerne and Carlo Rubia

796
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: discovered the w boson there. He made it and show

797
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 2: that it is a real thing and got the Nobel

798
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: Prize for it. It was a very nice description and

799
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: it made a prediction which was then proven correct.

800
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: So then what would be your answer for alan that

801
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: things just sort of convert into pure energy, or that

802
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: these energies are slashing between fields.

803
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 2: I would say that what's really happening is a down

804
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 2: cork is decaying into an upcork, and this extra energy

805
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: left over, and that's where the electron and neutrino come from.

806
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: That energy then ends up in the electron and neutrino

807
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 2: fields if you like the field picture. The electron and

808
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: neutrino were never inside the neutron. They're made from the

809
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: extra energy as it decays.

810
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: But I guess you sound very confident about this. But

811
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: and also the possibility that maybe all of these things

812
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: that we call fundamental particles like quarks and electrons, maybe

813
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: they're made out of even smaller lego blocks or smaller

814
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: tiny particles, in which case maybe these interactions are sort

815
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: of like chemistry, where you know, things are not transforming

816
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: into energy, they're just breaking up into their smaller pieces,

817
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: and those smaller pieces are rearranging themselves into these other particles.

818
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 2: Yes, you're absolutely right, and my description is just what

819
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: we currently think is happening, which of course is limited

820
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: because we don't know fundamentally what's really happening and what's

821
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: inside these particles, if anything, and even in just the

822
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: last seventy years, or so that's changed, right, Fermi, describe

823
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: this in terms of a neutron proton as fundamental particles.

824
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 2: And now, as you say, we have a deeper picture

825
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: of what's going on inside those particles, and that might change.

826
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: It might be that our theory only works up to

827
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 2: a certain energy, and beyond that we need to describe

828
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: it in terms of even smaller particles. But this is

829
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: our current picture.

830
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: Because we don't know if those tiny building blocks exist.

831
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: But they could, right, They certainly could. Yes, they very

832
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 2: likely do, because it would explain a lot of weird stuff.

833
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 2: We see patterns that are unexplained in the current particles

834
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: that probably are due to the way heinier things inside

835
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: the electron and neutrino and quarks are clicking together to

836
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: make the particles that we see and study.

837
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: Wait, so then if these tiny, smaller particles exist, does

838
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 1: that mean that the electron field doesn't really exist?

839
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 2: I mean, the proton definitely exists as a thing, even

840
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: if it's not a fundamental particle. It's made of quarks,

841
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 2: but it's a bound state of those quarks. If the

842
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 2: electron is not a fundamental particle, it means that the

843
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 2: electron field is a useful mathematical description of something that's

844
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: not fundamental but instead is a bound state of other

845
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: fields interacting in a way that looks just like an

846
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: electron field when you sort of zoom out right right,

847
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 2: it wouldn't exist for real. It's not fundamental, but like

848
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 2: you exist. You're not fundamental, you're made of smaller things.

849
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 2: But I still think you exist.

850
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I exist in as an arrangement of things.

851
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 2: Yes, Jorge exists, but the Joorge field doesn't. I guess

852
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: it's what you're saying.

853
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: That's what I mean. Unless my last name is Field.

854
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 2: Then you'd really be a philosopher.

855
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think the answers Ahinan's question. I

856
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: think for the third time today the answer is nobody knows,

857
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: not even philosophers or elderly engineers, which I think now

858
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: technically I fall into that category.

859
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: I think we have a pretty good picture of what's

860
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: going on in terms of our current understanding of the universe.

861
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 2: But of course we expect and hope and look forward

862
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: to the day that understanding is upended for a deeper understanding.

863
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: Well, and in the meantime, let's keep asking questions. Don't

864
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: forget to be curious about the universe, to think of questions,

865
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: and to share those questions with others. We hope you

866
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.

867
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 2: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social

868
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discorg, Insta,

869
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 2: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

870
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 2: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.

871
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

872
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.