Speaker 1: I'm TT and I'm Zakiah, and this is Dope Labs.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
Speaker 1: science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
Speaker 1: I saw this TikTok where people were taking a shot
Speaker 1: of apple cider vinegar every morning to keep their stomach
Speaker 1: on flat flat.
Speaker 2: Ooh, that's a lot of ascid.
Speaker 1: I am not that kind of scientist, so I have
Speaker 1: no idea what that's supposed to do.
Speaker 2: I just feel like there are so many wellness trends
Speaker 2: like that, and they're just things that make you wonder
Speaker 2: like is this legit or just social media science.
Speaker 3: One of the.
Speaker 2: Biggest ones like that is probiotics.
Speaker 3: Yo.
Speaker 1: Probiotics have been all over my timeline every day. It
Speaker 1: feels like I'm getting hit with ads this probiotic and that,
Speaker 1: probiotic drinks, gummies, face cream, even pillows, probiotic pillows.
Speaker 2: That's crazy, but I think I think a lot of
Speaker 2: times the question is like what are these probiotics supposed
Speaker 2: to actually do? Like are we really helping our bodies
Speaker 2: or are we just buy an expensive yogurt.
Speaker 1: That's why we're in the lab today to figure out
Speaker 1: what probiotics are how prebiotics fit in and why we're
Speaker 1: hearing about bacteria like they're the new wellness MVPs.
Speaker 2: Let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 3: Okay, here's what we know.
Speaker 1: There is bacteria living all over us, inside and out.
Speaker 3: That's what I learned from my friends and many. That's right,
Speaker 3: because I didn't believe it. Yeah, it's your microbiome.
Speaker 2: And it's not just bacteria. There's fun guy to And
Speaker 2: those bacteria aren't random. They have evolved alongside us humans,
Speaker 2: you know, doing important jobs, like they help us digest
Speaker 2: food in the gut. They're trading our immune systems, protecting
Speaker 2: our skin.
Speaker 3: So that's the microbiome.
Speaker 1: But where I get stuck is all this talk about
Speaker 1: probiotics and prebiotics. I see those words everywhere, but I'm like,
Speaker 1: what's the difference. I know pro and pre are different prefixes,
Speaker 1: but what's the difference and how do.
Speaker 3: They actually work?
Speaker 2: Listen, even as someone who knows the science, I still
Speaker 2: have questions because here's the thing. If I'm saying, Okay,
Speaker 2: I know our bodies already have established microbial communities, so
Speaker 2: and those organisms are surprisingly consistent across different people, you know,
Speaker 2: So that means these systems are resilient. So when I
Speaker 2: see a supplement this li we have billions of colony
Speaker 2: forming units, you know, means that in that little pield,
Speaker 2: they're saying, all these bacteria are capable of being alive
Speaker 2: and making a little colony of cells. I'm wondering, by
Speaker 2: taking probotics, are you actually able to change that resilient
Speaker 2: community that already exists or are we just adding more
Speaker 2: stuff that has no real impact. Okay, that's a deep cut. Okay,
Speaker 2: for me, it's even more straightforward.
Speaker 1: I just want to know our probiotics and probiotics something
Speaker 1: I need to be taking.
Speaker 3: Is it gonna help me?
Speaker 1: I want to know how do they work in different
Speaker 1: parts of your body, your gut, your skin, your hair?
Speaker 1: And is it enough to eat some yogurt? Should I
Speaker 1: be putting yogurt in my hair? I did that before
Speaker 1: one time. Yeah, you know, I wouldn't recommend it.
Speaker 2: We don't want to go back to banana brea head. Okay, right, Oh, go.
Speaker 1: Back and listen to that episode. It was poor advice
Speaker 1: to my friend that I gave her. But do I
Speaker 1: need to put yogurt everywhere? Or can I just take
Speaker 1: a pill? Well, I think tt that's exactly what we
Speaker 1: need to dig into. With doctor Raj, a gastro entrologist
Speaker 1: an expert in science behind probiotics, she'll help us figure
Speaker 1: out what's.
Speaker 2: Legit and what's just marketing.
Speaker 3: Perfect, let's jump into the dissection.
Speaker 4: I'm doctor Roshni Raj. I'm co founder of Yaday and Tula.
Speaker 4: I'm an Associate Professor of Medicine at NYU School of Medicine,
Speaker 4: and I can be reached my website, which is gut
Speaker 4: Renovation dot net or on Instagram, Dr Roschi Raj.
Speaker 2: So we're talking about probiotics, and our first question, doctor Raj,
Speaker 2: is like, is this new? Because for a long time,
Speaker 2: bacteria we're seen as the bad guys. You know, we
Speaker 2: think back to the gold yellow dial soap. It was
Speaker 2: like sanitize everything, bleach this, wash your hands with antibacterial soap.
Speaker 2: We know that that's kind of gone away, but we're
Speaker 2: also seeing this shift where people are talking about probiotics
Speaker 2: in the gut and on the skin, and even when
Speaker 2: we think about fermented foods like kombucha. Is that girl?
Speaker 2: So it feels like bacteria is having a rebrand.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: No, I think first of all, I just want to say,
Speaker 4: I'm so excited to be speaking with you both, and
Speaker 4: especially at this moment in time, to be speaking to
Speaker 4: women in science. And as we all know, science is
Speaker 4: a little bit under or a lot under assault right now,
Speaker 4: so it's really important the work that you're doing, and
Speaker 4: I'm really I'm really honored to be part of your
Speaker 4: program today. But talking about bacteria, it is a fascinating story.
Speaker 4: And if you go back to kind of the history
Speaker 4: exactly as you were saying ze Key about, but we
Speaker 4: used to think all bacteria were bad, and in fact,
Speaker 4: the first antibiotics, which was penicillin, was really discovered I
Speaker 4: believe around the time of World War Two and the
Speaker 4: battlefield and all these wounds and getting infected, and it
Speaker 4: was such a life saving thing to discover antibiotics that
Speaker 4: can kill bacteria and cure infection. And so that kind
Speaker 4: of idea of bacteria is being bad and causing illness
Speaker 4: really has remained in medicine up until and now I'm
Speaker 4: dating myself, but during my gasterentrology fellowship, so we're talking
Speaker 4: about two thousand and one, two thousand and two, that's
Speaker 4: when I first learned about this term probiotics, the fact
Speaker 4: that actually there's some bacteria that are not only not
Speaker 4: bad for you, but actually good for you. They can
Speaker 4: actually cause some real benefits in your gut. And back then,
Speaker 4: all the discussion about probiotics was really just about digestive
Speaker 4: health and how it can keep your DIGESTIONI in balance
Speaker 4: and keep all the good bacteria in balance. But now
Speaker 4: when we shift over twenty years, we realize that your
Speaker 4: gut microbiome and those healthy bacteria can actually have positive
Speaker 4: effects throughout your body, not just your gut, but your
Speaker 4: mental health, your metabolism, your immunity, your risk of cancer,
Speaker 4: heart disease, almost any disease under the sun. This is
Speaker 4: what motivated me to write my book Gut Renovation a
Speaker 4: couple of years ago, which is all about how your
Speaker 4: microbiome can really impact your overall health. So, yes, bacteria
Speaker 4: is definitely having a moment, and I'm very excited about
Speaker 4: that because the research really does show that having a
Speaker 4: healthy microbiome and that's the community of bacteria in your
Speaker 4: gut really can have so many far reaching effects throughout
Speaker 4: your body.
Speaker 1: Yes, it feels like bacteria has the right PR team
Speaker 1: behind them. You hear the word bacteria and it doesn't
Speaker 1: make you like.
Speaker 3: Screen, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: And there has been a shift because when I started
Speaker 4: co founded Tula, which is our probiotic skincare brand, we
Speaker 4: started that in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, early fifteen, and
Speaker 4: at that time, the thought of putting bacterial extracts on
Speaker 4: the skin there definitely was still an ick factor and
Speaker 4: why would we be doing that? Isn't that kind of gross?
Speaker 4: There was a lot of education involved in really educating
Speaker 4: the customer about what all the benefits are of doing that.
Speaker 4: And now there's a skin microbiome conference every other week practically,
Speaker 4: Like it's just so shifted. The information has exploded, consumer scientists,
Speaker 4: everyone's really embracing this idea of your natural microbiome and
Speaker 4: why it's so important to keep it balanced and intact.
Speaker 1: I really want to get people to understand the differences
Speaker 1: between good bacteria and bad bacteria. So probiotics and the
Speaker 1: bad stuff that makes you sick. Yeah, how are they
Speaker 1: different from one another?
Speaker 4: Yeah? So we know that in our digestive tract and
Speaker 4: mostly I'm talking about your coal and your large intestine.
Speaker 4: That's where we have the hosts. The majority of the
Speaker 4: bacteria in our gut. We do have a community of
Speaker 4: many good, beneficial strains of bacteria that can do many
Speaker 4: different things. They can help strengthen the lining of your gut.
Speaker 4: They can produce metabolites that affect your immune cells, they
Speaker 4: can produce neurotransmitters that affect your mood, all sorts of things.
Speaker 4: But we also do have some communities of bacteria that
Speaker 4: are not so great for you, especially if they become overpopulated.
Speaker 4: So if you think about sort of a garden and
Speaker 4: there's beautiful flowers, there's some regular plants, and there are
Speaker 4: some weeds, and you know they're always going to be
Speaker 4: some weeds, but you want to just keep them under
Speaker 4: control so they're not sucking up all the fuel that
Speaker 4: should be going to the good stuff and basically destroying
Speaker 4: all your good bacteria. And going along with this kind
Speaker 4: of flower garden metaphor is the concept of prebiotics. So prebiotics,
Speaker 4: you can think of that as the fertilizer for your good,
Speaker 4: beautiful flowers. So prebiotics usually are fiber based, and these
Speaker 4: are things that feed the growth of beneficial bacteria, and
Speaker 4: that's why we think fiber is such a key crucial
Speaker 4: component of our diet, because that's really how you can
Speaker 4: feed the growth of your good bacteria, make sure they're
Speaker 4: in abundance so that the bad bacteria doesn't have a
Speaker 4: chance to overgrow. One example that we see a lot
Speaker 4: in medicine of a bad bacteria is something called C.
Speaker 4: Deficile or Cloustridium deficile. This is a bacteria that we
Speaker 4: all have a little bit of, usually just walking around,
Speaker 4: but it's small, it's a low enough amount it doesn't
Speaker 4: cause problems. But sometimes when you take antibiotics, say you
Speaker 4: have an ear infection or a respiratory infection, you take antibiotics,
Speaker 4: it does get rid of whatever causing the ear infection
Speaker 4: or the respiratory infection, but it can also destroy some
Speaker 4: of your good protective bacteria in your gut, and that
Speaker 4: allows this bad bacteria Sea deficile to overgrow and it
Speaker 4: can cause inflammation, severe diarrhea, It can be quite serious.
Speaker 4: So that's an example of when you throw things off balance,
Speaker 4: bad bacteria have a better chance of growing and causing problems.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we can think about probiotics as the good
Speaker 2: bacteria we want, and prebiotics are there fertilizer, But what
Speaker 2: about post biotics. It feels like we're just making up
Speaker 2: worries at this point.
Speaker 4: Yeah, great question. First everyone learned about probiotics, then they
Speaker 4: have to learn about probiotics. Now we're throwing post biotics
Speaker 4: in there. So post biotics are really the metabolites, the
Speaker 4: actives that a probiotic bacteria can release, but it's not
Speaker 4: the actual bacteria. So if you think of the bacteria
Speaker 4: as almost like a sack holding some really important things
Speaker 4: in there, the sack burst releases all that good stuff.
Speaker 4: The good stuff is the post biotics, but the bacteria
Speaker 4: itself is gone, it's dead, it's no longer there, but
Speaker 4: it's releasing those active metabolites which can remain active even
Speaker 4: though the bacteria has died. So, for example, with tula,
Speaker 4: what were you putting on your skin? Those are not
Speaker 4: live bacteria. Those are probiotic extracts or post biotics. There's
Speaker 4: another term called symbiotic, which is a combination of a
Speaker 4: prebiotic and a probiotic. So sometimes now if you take supplements,
Speaker 4: maybe you used to take just a probiotic, Now you
Speaker 4: can often find a combination of pre and pro So
Speaker 4: these are all different, you know, different methods of really
Speaker 4: boosting the health of your microbiome.
Speaker 1: Okay, so prebiotic, probiotic, post biotic. Prebiotic plus probiotic equals symbiotic.
Speaker 3: Did I get everything?
Speaker 2: I know it feels like a lot you did. I
Speaker 2: think when we break it down and think about that garden,
Speaker 2: uh huh. Probiotic is the fertilizer in a probiotic is
Speaker 2: the flower. The flower is that bacteria. Now, sometimes you
Speaker 2: may just feel like, hey, I'm getting enough in my diet.
Speaker 2: I don't need fertilizer. I just want the probiotic.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you may say, hey, I'm gonna take this probody,
Speaker 2: but I know I'm not doing right. I need the
Speaker 2: fertilizer too. So that's called a symbiotic. That's put planting
Speaker 2: your flowers and adding fertilizer directly to the soil as
Speaker 2: soon as you do it. The post biotic is like
Speaker 2: if you said, Okay, I'm just gonna skip the flower
Speaker 2: and the fertilizer, give me the extract. I'm gonna take
Speaker 2: these flowers and steep them. I'll drink the tea, and
Speaker 2: the post body is the tea. When you take those
Speaker 2: flowers and you say, what was in those flowers. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna extract that out. That's what the post biotic is, Okay, Lavender.
Speaker 1: I don't want this to be a reach, but I
Speaker 1: don't know, if you remember, I don't know if we're
Speaker 1: gonna be aging ourselves when like everything in the haircare
Speaker 1: industry was like ion technology. Oh yeah, and I always
Speaker 1: turn to t TEA for help with anything like this.
Speaker 3: Ions are everywhere like it was. It just sounds good,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: It sounds scientific, but most people had no idea what
Speaker 1: that meant. Is there a solid science that tells us
Speaker 1: if we understand that we have acrobiome that's established, does
Speaker 1: the science back this up? Aside from what we know
Speaker 1: can sometimes happen with placebo effect, do we see that
Speaker 1: adding probiotics and post biotics can shift the composition or
Speaker 1: regulate dys biosis so when things are out of proportion
Speaker 1: in the gut? Is there a strong case for that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question, and I think first we
Speaker 4: have to go back to is there science supporting just
Speaker 4: the fact that the microbiome itself does have importance and
Speaker 4: effects throughout our body? And that the answer is definitely yes.
Speaker 4: So you know, there's something called the Human Microbiome Project
Speaker 4: where scientists have really gone and mapped out all the
Speaker 4: different strains or possible strains in the human microbiome and
Speaker 4: what genes you know, confer different strains and what they
Speaker 4: all do. So we know the microbiome exists and it
Speaker 4: actually has a real purpose. But the question that you raise,
Speaker 4: which is an interesting one, is intervention. So do interventions
Speaker 4: like adding probiotics or adding probiotics make a difference? And
Speaker 4: there it is still an early feel, I would say,
Speaker 4: in certain in terms of research, but yes, there are
Speaker 4: compelling studies looking at everything from adding probiotics to an
Speaker 4: antidepression regimen, to adding probiotics to something for immunity, and
Speaker 4: does that mean children will get less colds in a
Speaker 4: given year? And there is compelling evidence to say, yes,
Speaker 4: it does actually work. Do we know exactly what doses,
Speaker 4: what strains should be for which people. I don't think
Speaker 4: we're there quite yet, but it's definitely an active area
Speaker 4: of research and I think we're going to get those
Speaker 4: answers relatively soon. But there's just so many fascinating studies
Speaker 4: out there looking at this. I mean, they have done
Speaker 4: studies looking at people with depression and people without depression,
Speaker 4: and then they examine their stool and they examine their
Speaker 4: micromiome and they find real stark differences between the two.
Speaker 4: And the question is, if you can supplement the person
Speaker 4: with depression with the kind of non depressed type of bacteria,
Speaker 4: is that going to help them? And they've shown some
Speaker 4: small studies where it does help, but we need larger
Speaker 4: amounts of evidence to really prove that. There are other
Speaker 4: things looking at sleep in the microbiome, There's one that
Speaker 4: I found really interesting looking at medical students who are
Speaker 4: notoriously sleep deprived and specifically during a night shift, like
Speaker 4: I think it was a three week night shift. They
Speaker 4: looked at their microbiome kind of profile before they started
Speaker 4: the night shift and after the three weeks, and they
Speaker 4: saw significant changes. So that just being sleep deprived, and
Speaker 4: they may have also eaten different things because they were
Speaker 4: sleep deprived, but there were changes in their microbiome. There's
Speaker 4: certain bacteria that they found to be more pro insomnia
Speaker 4: or more pro good sleep. So there are just so
Speaker 4: many connections that are being made. It's still in early field.
Speaker 4: We still have a lot to learn, but there's definitely
Speaker 4: something there.
Speaker 3: Now I'm thinking of all of my ailments.
Speaker 4: There's a connection, and that's partly why I love the
Speaker 4: concept of prebiotics and fiber, because we don't know exactly
Speaker 4: what strain we should be taking for what. With prebiotics,
Speaker 4: you're sort of getting that broad benefit because you're feeding
Speaker 4: all of your good bacteria. You know, it's a way
Speaker 4: to sort of head your bets a little bit, like
Speaker 4: I'm not sure which bacteria should be feeding more, but
Speaker 4: if I'm taking a ton of fiber, all of my
Speaker 4: good bacteria are going to be plentiful and abundant.
Speaker 2: Like miracle grow.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: More on the flower metaphor, yes, Yes.
Speaker 1: In the research for this episode and just talking to
Speaker 1: my friend because she's very smart and knows these things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I learned that we talk a lot about the gut microbiome,
Speaker 1: but I also learned that your skin has microbiomes, there's
Speaker 1: vaginal microbiomes, there's even.
Speaker 3: Mouth and scalp microbiome.
Speaker 1: Can you help us understand how these ecosystems differ across
Speaker 1: the body and why they matter totally?
Speaker 4: Well, I think now we're realizing that this concept of
Speaker 4: microbiome is important in many different parts of our body.
Speaker 4: Like you said, and I think any woman who's ever
Speaker 4: had a used infection in their life understands the importance
Speaker 4: of a vaginal microbiome, right. So we know that particularly
Speaker 4: if you take antibiotics or if something even up from
Speaker 4: that throws off the ecosystem in the vaginal microbiome, you
Speaker 4: can develop an overgrowth of yeast or potentially other infections.
Speaker 4: So we know that there's a very delicate balance in
Speaker 4: the vaginal area in terms of pH which is governed
Speaker 4: by bacteria in many cases, and just the balance there,
Speaker 4: so that's important. Then the oral microbiome is really fascinating
Speaker 4: because now there are many studies showing that your oral
Speaker 4: health really can impact again your overall health. Things like
Speaker 4: heart disease, for example, is a big one because we
Speaker 4: think that if you have more sort of plaque or
Speaker 4: infection in the oral area, it can cause overall body inflammation.
Speaker 4: And we know that inflammation is kind of the root
Speaker 4: of all evils when it comes to most diseases. So, yes,
Speaker 4: the oral microbiome is very important to maintain, and skin
Speaker 4: microbiome for sure, and that's partly what TULA is all about.
Speaker 4: But the fact that we have a delicate balance of
Speaker 4: microbiome on our skin of good bacteria, and that really
Speaker 4: the good bacteria on your skin can really help strengthen
Speaker 4: your skin's natural defense barrier. And what that does is
Speaker 4: help you hold onto moisture. It can help decrease skin inflammation.
Speaker 4: And we know inflammation on the skin is what causes
Speaker 4: collagen breakdown a last and breakdown that leads to wrinkle
Speaker 4: formation as well as dryness, redness, irritation, all those things.
Speaker 4: So that's how the skin microbiome can be very important,
Speaker 4: and other things like pollution can disrupt it. Different products
Speaker 4: can disrupt it as well. And scalp microbiome is also
Speaker 4: particularly in people who have conditions like dandruff. For example.
Speaker 4: There are now thoughts that the scalp microbiome plays a
Speaker 4: role there as well and may allow for a certain
Speaker 4: overgrowth of certain bacteria that can lead to more scalp
Speaker 4: issues like dandruff.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting even an.
Speaker 4: Under our microbiome. I was actually interested in looking at
Speaker 4: that at one point. Deodorant and the microbiome and what
Speaker 4: causes odor, all of those things have to do with
Speaker 4: bacteria to a large extent, So kind of cracking the
Speaker 4: code on that I think would be really interesting as well.
Speaker 2: We're understanding that we have this established micro biome and
Speaker 2: it's not static, but the microbiome that are on your
Speaker 2: feet or on your hands look different over time. We
Speaker 2: actually have a friend from grad school, Keisha, Our friend
Speaker 2: Keisha TT did a study of the microbiome on the
Speaker 2: hands and feet and she was really a fungal microbiologist
Speaker 2: and so she showed like, if you ever had athletes foot,
Speaker 2: there's a microbiome's signature. If you've used like tough acting
Speaker 2: to enacting or whatever the stuff for athletes foot, you
Speaker 2: don't re establish those fun guy like you see a
Speaker 2: different composition years later just because of that disruption to
Speaker 2: your microbiome.
Speaker 4: Okay, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's cool. So that kind of shows that
Speaker 2: you can make changes that can be super lasting. So
Speaker 2: that also helps us understand why it's so important to
Speaker 2: repopulate some of those key players when you lose them.
Speaker 2: But yeah, when we introduce those players, like are we changing?
Speaker 2: I guess I want to understand, like are we changing
Speaker 2: the neighborhood? Like are we bringing in new people? Is
Speaker 2: it like back to your gentrification or are we like
Speaker 2: you know, like are we kicking out the other people
Speaker 2: and bringing other folks in. Or are we just like
Speaker 2: supplementing what's already there that don't normally exist.
Speaker 4: No great question, And I would say for the vast
Speaker 4: majority of probiotics that you might buy off the shelf
Speaker 4: are strains you already have that humans already contain, but
Speaker 4: in higher doses to really give your natural ones a boost.
Speaker 4: There are a few even kind of genetically modified probiotics
Speaker 4: that have been kind of boosted to give some extra
Speaker 4: benefit of some kind. But for the vast majority, it's
Speaker 4: strains we already have. And these are certain families that
Speaker 4: are common, like Bifittobacter or Lactobacillus or some so these
Speaker 4: are things that we already naturally produce, but something may
Speaker 4: have caused us to not produce enough, whether it was antibatics.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's interesting what you said about the long
Speaker 4: lasting effect of the fungal antifungals. There are studies looking
Speaker 4: at children who get antibotics in childhood, for let's say,
Speaker 4: repeated ear infections twenty thirty years later have a higher
Speaker 4: incidents of things like Crohn's disease or other autoimmune diseases,
Speaker 4: so they can really have long lasting effects these disruptions
Speaker 4: of the microbiome, which is why it is so important
Speaker 4: to do everything you can to take care of your gut.
Speaker 4: I mean, that's what prompted me to start ya day,
Speaker 4: is this idea of what's a simple thing that we
Speaker 4: can all be doing to really optimize our gut microbiome,
Speaker 4: and that's increasing our fiber. So that's why I really
Speaker 4: wanted to do this probatic blend of great fibers. But yes,
Speaker 4: I think most of the time it's what you naturally have,
Speaker 4: but you want to boost it and make sure you
Speaker 4: have them enough amounts.
Speaker 1: Okay, continuing along with that metaphor that Azekia just said
Speaker 1: about the neighborhood. Yeah, when these probiotis come in, are
Speaker 1: they fistfighting with the bacteria that's already in the neighborhood
Speaker 1: or are they coexisting in a very happy relationship.
Speaker 3: How does this work? How do they mix and mingle?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they're coexisting well with the nice neighbors. I
Speaker 4: would say that they're competing for food with the bad neighbors,
Speaker 4: and that's good because you want those bad to not
Speaker 4: get enough food and start to diminish and die off
Speaker 4: a little bit. So, Yes, they really kind of compliment
Speaker 4: your good, healthy bacteria and keep the bad guys kind
Speaker 4: of down to a minimum. That's how it usually works.
Speaker 4: And another interesting point which I don't think we knew
Speaker 4: in the very beginning. We kind of thought, oh, you
Speaker 4: give someone probiotics, let's say for a week or even
Speaker 4: a month, and then their body kind of takes over.
Speaker 4: It now looks like you probably have to keep up
Speaker 4: the supplementation for quite a while. It's not. It's something
Speaker 4: that your body probably will need more long term, as
Speaker 4: opposed to being able to then ramp up its own
Speaker 4: production and take over on its own.
Speaker 1: And preparation for this lab TT and I were talking
Speaker 1: about understanding that in the same way that our immune
Speaker 1: system gets stronger when it's exposed to things. Yeah, are
Speaker 1: microbiome on the skin you know, when you first depending
Speaker 1: on the method of delivery our birth into the world,
Speaker 1: you have a transfer of the mother's skin microbiome to
Speaker 1: the baby skin microbiome, right right, similar microbiome, the microbiome,
Speaker 1: and when we think about colonizing that gut microbiome. And
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what you said about broad spectrum antibiotics
Speaker 1: and also antibotics that are not topical, that are not
Speaker 1: in one place, but that you may take orally as
Speaker 1: a kid, that could destroy that gut microbiome. If we're
Speaker 1: thinking about those first two years of life for kids
Speaker 1: and how they're establishing their microbiome, but may be exposed,
Speaker 1: especially in daycare, to so many things and so they
Speaker 1: may be having to take antibiotics. Is there a case
Speaker 1: for probiotics for kids.
Speaker 2: And is it beyond yogurt because I feel like people
Speaker 2: say kids got to eat a lot of yogurt, but I.
Speaker 4: Think there definitely is a case for it. Yes, yogurt
Speaker 4: is fabulous because it has calcium and all these other things,
Speaker 4: and it does have a nice rich mix of diverse organism,
Speaker 4: so that's good. But these days, exactly as you said,
Speaker 4: because they're exposed to so many viruses and infections, A,
Speaker 4: the probiotics can help with immunity overall, and B if
Speaker 4: they are unfortunately going to have to take antibiotics, and
Speaker 4: definitely we should always use them sparingly, whether it's for
Speaker 4: kids or adults, but sometimes they need them. I think
Speaker 4: probiotics definitely are an important component of keeping their microbiome healthy.
Speaker 4: I mean, now they have infant formulas with probiotics. They're
Speaker 4: even giving it to neonates with certain conditions like premies,
Speaker 4: depending on what's going on. So I think we're learning
Speaker 4: that it is extremely important for sure to boost the
Speaker 4: microbiome as kids are developing. And I just again, this
Speaker 4: is something I just find interesting that you were talking
Speaker 4: about delivery and the mother passing on microbes to the
Speaker 4: child and they have these. You may have come across
Speaker 4: this in your research, but studies looking at babies born
Speaker 4: with c sections versus vaginal delivery and how their microbiomes
Speaker 4: are much less healthy if they're born through sea section.
Speaker 4: So they actually did a study where even if the
Speaker 4: baby was born with a sea section, they would take
Speaker 4: some of the vaginal flora of their mother and put
Speaker 4: it on the skin of the baby and try to
Speaker 4: like boost their microbiome that way, and it actually did work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, if you do have to have a c section.
Speaker 4: Swab it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well only.
Speaker 4: Women could have this discussion. I think, not loving it
Speaker 4: right now, but.
Speaker 3: That sounds amazing.
Speaker 1: That sounds amazing to hear that you know, if you
Speaker 1: do have to go through sea section, that this is
Speaker 1: not something that you.
Speaker 3: Miss out on the things you can do. Yes, I
Speaker 3: love that. I love that.
Speaker 1: My question is about probiotics as a cure for things.
Speaker 1: Can it actually cure things? Because I mean, I see
Speaker 1: a lot on TikTok and Instagram where people are saying
Speaker 1: it could be a cure. But we wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to an expert, someone who knows what they're talking about,
Speaker 1: to tell us if it is possible for probiotic secure things,
Speaker 1: what are they and then what are some misconceptions about
Speaker 1: the impact of probiotics in some areas when it comes
Speaker 1: to our health.
Speaker 4: I will tell you as a gas terentrologist firsthand, I
Speaker 4: have had many patients who either have severe bloating or
Speaker 4: constipation or diarrhea, whole host of things, and they start
Speaker 4: taking certain probiotics and they feel one hundred percent better. So,
Speaker 4: just anecdotally, I can tell you that for some people
Speaker 4: in some conditions it can definitely work. Now globally and
Speaker 4: there are studies that show for certain conditions it works,
Speaker 4: especially in the digestive tract. But like I was saying before,
Speaker 4: in terms of other parts of our body, whether it's
Speaker 4: depression or other conditions, even they're looking at things like
Speaker 4: autism and Parkinson's and dementia. There, the research is still ongoing,
Speaker 4: so I don't think we can conclusively say we have
Speaker 4: cures yet. I think we can conclusively say there is
Speaker 4: a connection between the microbiome and these conditions. But how
Speaker 4: we come up with the cure yet, I don't think so.
Speaker 4: I mean, there's a probiotic that they've done some good
Speaker 4: studies on showing that it helps with blood sugar control.
Speaker 4: So is this something that maybe not a cure, but
Speaker 4: a method of really helping control diabetes. I think there
Speaker 4: is some evidence for that, So I think that's more
Speaker 4: of an ongoing story. But certainly within the digestive world
Speaker 4: there are conditions where probatics have been shown to help.
Speaker 4: But I just think probably over the next five to
Speaker 4: ten years, we're going to see a lot more proof
Speaker 4: points and a lot more conclusive evidence.
Speaker 1: FDA has no indications that say probiotics are used to
Speaker 1: treat this or can treat xyz. Yeah, but we also
Speaker 1: know that sometimes the FDA is a large ship that
Speaker 1: is slow turning.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I think the question becomes without any
Speaker 2: guidance or without something that has an ingredient or label
Speaker 2: that says this will absolutely rebalance your skin microbiome where
Speaker 2: this will help you not have embarrassed saying and stomach
Speaker 2: rumbles in network? Right, How what should people be looking
Speaker 2: for to know if a probiotic blend is for them.
Speaker 4: I do think it helps to talk to an expert,
Speaker 4: like whether that's your healthcare practitioner or maybe it's your dermatologist.
Speaker 4: For me, when I'm looking at because I'm looking at
Speaker 4: products all the time just for various reasons, to see
Speaker 4: what people are doing, and I'll do a quick search.
Speaker 4: I'll look at the strains and I'll do a quick
Speaker 4: search of what is the science behind these strains, like
Speaker 4: has this strain been shown to improve skin hydration or
Speaker 4: improve acne, or has this strain been shown to help
Speaker 4: with bloating. I think because like you said, there's so
Speaker 4: many things out there, there's really no regulation it is,
Speaker 4: it can be very confusing, and so it's hard to
Speaker 4: give a blanket answer of oh, look for XYZ and
Speaker 4: you're good. I think you have to really look at
Speaker 4: the label always off the bat, it's generally better to
Speaker 4: go with a reputable company, one that you can kind
Speaker 4: of see where they're coming from. I mean, I think
Speaker 4: one of the good news things about probiotics is there's
Speaker 4: very little downside, so unlike many supplements, yeah, herbs and
Speaker 4: things where you know, people think like, oh it's herbal,
Speaker 4: it's all good, But herbs can cause liver failure, they
Speaker 4: can cause all yeah, as you guys know, so to me.
Speaker 4: Because probiotics usually are just a bacterial strain, there's usually
Speaker 4: very little downside to it. But you want something that's
Speaker 4: actually going to be effective for sure.
Speaker 1: Just like we're talking about gut health, we want to
Speaker 1: think about healthy skin. How do you define healthy skin?
Speaker 1: And then how do topicals or probiotics work differently depending
Speaker 1: on your skin type.
Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, Toola, we always want to
Speaker 4: make sure we're not trying to say everyone needs to
Speaker 4: have perfect skin. There is no such thing as perfect skin,
Speaker 4: and what you see on Instagram is usually not reality.
Speaker 4: But generally, what we are aiming for with healthy skin
Speaker 4: our skin that is not overly dried or irritated. Hydration
Speaker 4: and irritation and dryness are the main things there. In
Speaker 4: terms of topical probiotics, I think there are some topical
Speaker 4: probiotic extracts that work very well for hydration. There are
Speaker 4: others that specifically work for things like rosation and acne,
Speaker 4: and those are one of those areas where there's a
Speaker 4: lot of active research going on. But I think it's
Speaker 4: different strains for different things. But for overall the average
Speaker 4: person who doesn't have examo roseaesia acne but just wants
Speaker 4: healthier skin or glowing, moist good skin, there are some
Speaker 4: general families of bacteria that they can find that are
Speaker 4: good for that.
Speaker 1: Okay, you've covered so much. We talked about digestion for
Speaker 1: the gut. We talked a little bit about the mind
Speaker 1: gut access and like how that can effect mood and
Speaker 1: mental health. But I'm curious if you have any breakthroughs
Speaker 1: that you think are happening or that things that you're
Speaker 1: seeing that feel like, oh, this is exciting around the
Speaker 1: area of good bacteria, a good fun guy or good
Speaker 1: microbes in medicine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the thing that I'm excited about, I'm
Speaker 4: so excited about just more and more research on interventions
Speaker 4: using probiotics. Like I said, I don't think we're that
Speaker 4: far away from an antidepressant probiotic, which would have all
Speaker 4: the benefits and none of the side effects of antidepressants.
Speaker 4: Right now, you know, so I think that would be
Speaker 4: just revolutionary given the mental health crisis we're going through
Speaker 4: at the moment. But one of the things I'm really
Speaker 4: excited about is this idea of taking a probiotic, a
Speaker 4: healthy bacteria, and basically modifying it in a way that
Speaker 4: it can deliver, like you said, some kind of other
Speaker 4: benefit that it wasn't actually naturally intended to do, but
Speaker 4: something positive. So, for example, there's a bacteria that they're
Speaker 4: working on to help with lactose intolerance or even with
Speaker 4: silliact disease, which you know, gluten intolerance. So ways to
Speaker 4: modify these bacteria so that if you take it, you're
Speaker 4: actually able to process gluten or able to process lactose,
Speaker 4: things like that. Really engineering these bacteria to serve even
Speaker 4: more purpose than they already do. That's something I'm very
Speaker 4: excited about, for sure. And I think you know you
Speaker 4: mentioned gout mind. I don't think we talked about it
Speaker 4: that much, but I do think that's probably the next
Speaker 4: front here, is really getting more into that gut mind connection,
Speaker 4: because I mean, it's very real. If you've ever had
Speaker 4: butterflies in your stomach, you know that it's real. But
Speaker 4: it goes well beyond that, and how do we what
Speaker 4: are ways we can modulate our mood by really modulating
Speaker 4: what's going on in our gut. I think that could
Speaker 4: be so fascinating. And they're even studies looking at personality
Speaker 4: differences when you change the microbiome, like making someone who
Speaker 4: shine more outgoing or vice versa. Like, there's just so
Speaker 4: much fertile ground there for exploration, so I'm excited to
Speaker 4: see where where that goes.
Speaker 1: Wow, so we you can make yourself healthier, happier or outgoing,
Speaker 1: exactly better skin, better hairs.
Speaker 3: All these different things. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: So if someone is listening right now and they're like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I've learned so much about probiotics now
Speaker 1: I know that, you know, probiotics can really help me
Speaker 1: with certain things that I'm experiencing. They what's the first
Speaker 1: step do they take that they should take? How do
Speaker 1: they know what probiotic to use?
Speaker 4: So, as I was saying before, I would start with
Speaker 4: probiotics because that we know is going to fuel the
Speaker 4: growth of all your good bacteria. So probatics you definitely
Speaker 4: can find in your diet, things like artichokes, apricots, almonds,
Speaker 4: many different sources of fiber or good sources of probiotics. Okay,
Speaker 4: you can also find a lot of probiotic rich foods
Speaker 4: in your diet. So I have yogurt every day, yogurt
Speaker 4: with live and active cultures. But things like kimchi, miso, sauerkraut,
Speaker 4: fermented pickles, kafir I think you guys mentioned, or kombucha.
Speaker 4: So there are different ways to get probiotics in. And
Speaker 4: then yes, taking a probatic supplement and or a probiotic
Speaker 4: supplement is also a great way to ensure you're getting that.
Speaker 4: You know, when we talk about fiber, it's thought that
Speaker 4: over ninety percent of Americans don't get the recommended amount
Speaker 4: of fiber, so most of us are fiber deprived and
Speaker 4: can use more, and it's so important to boost our microbio.
Speaker 4: But then the other just last thing I'll say is
Speaker 4: we're talking a lot about diet and supplements, but there
Speaker 4: are a lot of other things that affect your microbiomes.
Speaker 4: So stress can cause imbalances in your microbiomes. Sleep deprivation
Speaker 4: can do it, lack of exercise can do it. So
Speaker 4: you want to be thinking holistically about your lifestyle because
Speaker 4: all of those things can either positively or negatively affect
Speaker 4: your microbiomes, so make sure you're paying attention to all
Speaker 4: aspects of your lifestyle.
Speaker 3: Such a good point.
Speaker 1: If you're worried about your skin care, you should worry
Speaker 1: about your gut care as well, and your tire microbiome.
Speaker 1: That's correct, that's such good advice.
Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker 2: So tt here's what we learn. Probatics are the good bacteria.
Speaker 2: Probiotics are the fiber that feeds them. Post Biotics are
Speaker 2: the byproducts, the useful leftovers out of those bacteria, and symbiotics, well,
Speaker 2: that's a burger fries. It's a combo meal.
Speaker 1: But the big takeaway your microbiome matter is not just
Speaker 1: for your gut, but for your skin, mood, even your sleep.
Speaker 1: And while the science is still catching up on exactly
Speaker 1: how to optimize it, we know this fiber is your friend.
Speaker 1: Probiotics can help, but not all blends are created equal,
Speaker 1: and your lifestyle, sleep, stress, exercise, all that affects your microbiome.
Speaker 2: So whether you're here for the yogurt, komuncha or the skincare,
Speaker 2: just remember that bacteria more than just germs. They might
Speaker 2: be your body's best kept secret.
Speaker 3: See y'all next time.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Doctor Raj, who can be found to
Speaker 2: her website gut Renovation dot net.
Speaker 1: You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Speaker 1: Labs podcast, tt is.
Speaker 2: On X and Instagram at dr Underscore, T s.
Speaker 3: H O, and you can find Takiya at z said So.
Speaker 2: Dope Labs is a production of Lemonada Media.
Speaker 1: Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
Speaker 1: producer is Isara Savez.
Speaker 2: Dope Labs is sound design, edited and mixed by James Farber.
Speaker 2: Leimonada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger.
Speaker 2: Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead
Speaker 2: is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 1: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yatsuzawa and Alex
Speaker 1: sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Lab
Speaker 1: is executive produced by US T T Show Dia and
Speaker 1: Nikia Wattley.