1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: All Zone media. 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: Happy Halloween, assholes. It's Jamie Loftus, host of sixteenth Minute here, 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 2: and this week's episode is about the thieving of human bones. 4 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: This is a crime of the past. Right, we're civilized people. 5 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 2: We're less than a week away from another incredible election 6 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: with amazing options. 7 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 3: We're good now, right. 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 2: No, No, dear listener, bone thieves have not disappeared. They've 9 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: evolved with the tools made available to them. You may 10 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 2: think of a nineteenth century grave digger when you think 11 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 2: of a stolen bone. But what if I told you 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: that bone thieves are. 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: All around us at your school, in your neighborhood, on 14 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: your phone, your first school is a TikToker? Okay, Ian 15 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: we can get rid of the haunted house music for now. 16 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 2: More specifically, we're talking about a TikToker named John's Bones. 17 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 2: Here's his personal lore as he tells it. When he 18 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: was just a child, John pichea fairy, received the skeleton 19 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: of a mouse from his father as a gift. 20 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 4: Okay, instead of taking it from a creepy, dark and 21 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 4: spooky way, I looked at it really with a fascination 22 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 4: and awe, John. 23 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: Told ABC News in twenty twenty two, okay, and by 24 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: the time he was twenty one years old, John had 25 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: built a TikTok following of nearly half a million people 26 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: talking about and showing off his gigantic collection. 27 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 3: Of human bones. 28 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 2: He got into the hobby in earnest, when he was 29 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 2: in college at the Parsons School of Art and Design 30 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: and the Thailand born Indiana Brad John was all in 31 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: on bones after seeing a human skull for sale at 32 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: Obscura Antiques and Oddities in Manhattan. According to a Curbed 33 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: profile of him from twenty twenty three. 34 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 4: I was like, is this legal? And they were like, yeah, 35 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 4: it's no problem. 36 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 3: But is it a problem? 37 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 2: Turns out it depends on if you're talking about the 38 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: law or a given person's values, because what constitutes a 39 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: legal transaction of human bones versus what I'd be comfortable 40 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 2: with is pretty significant, it turns out, and John's Bones 41 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: is very aware of that, because yes, this is our 42 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: Halloween episode. We're having fun, but I want to be clear. 43 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 3: Woo, let me be clear. 44 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 2: This episode contains a lot of information about the laws 45 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: around bones and bones in America specifically, and different religions 46 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: and cultures have different views around what should be done. 47 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: With bones, and with death rituals, and with human remains generally. 48 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 2: So there's no prescriptive way to handle death or death rituals. 49 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: I mean, listen, my dad's ashes are in this very room. 50 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: They're about two feet behind me, and I can't deal 51 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: with it. So no one is wrong with the way 52 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: that they're handling this issue. It's fucked up for everybody, 53 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: and everyone's culture and religion is going to vary. No 54 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: one is wrong, that is, except the people we're going 55 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: to be talking about today. These people are perhaps the 56 00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: most wrong anyone has ever been. So who is John 57 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: and why does he have so many bones? John's Bones 58 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: was born in two thousand and became a bone influencer 59 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: before he could legally buy Miller Lyte. And when I 60 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: first heard about him and the fact that there was 61 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: controversy surrounding this creator who made content around death, I wondered, 62 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: did this just stem from people in the West's discomfort 63 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: around death in general? Because that's absolutely a thing. Some 64 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: of my favorite writers and creators working online are making 65 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: material about death. Look no further than one of the 66 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 2: greatest to ever do it, Caitlin Doty aka The Good 67 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: Death aka ask A mortician on YouTube. Doty is a 68 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: licensed and practicing funeral director and has been working in 69 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: cremation since the two thousands, and her work is amazing 70 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 2: and has really moved the needle on how I view 71 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: American attitudes on death and death rituals. But everyone's reallylationship 72 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 2: to death is different outside of the fact that it 73 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 2: is coming for all of us. 74 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 3: But Caitlin Dodie makes educational content about death, and while. 75 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 2: She is a funeral director, there's nothing that she's doing 76 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: that is like out of line or illegal for American 77 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: funerals for instance, and maybe especially she is not selling bones. 78 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: So John's Bones a key term you're going to need 79 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 2: to know for this week's episode is osteology basically skeleton studies, 80 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: and the term John's Bones most closely associated with. In 81 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: spite of not having any overt credentials that we know 82 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: of outside of having worked with bones in college, his 83 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: TikTok launched just short of the COVID lockdown, and he 84 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 2: saw a lot of growth in the account alongside the 85 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: pandemic era growth of TikTok itself. And make no mistake, 86 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: John's Bones had been posting bones to Maine since twenty nineteen. 87 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: But as he gets more popular, he starts to do 88 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: these fluffy, kind of unsourced TikTok history videos that you've 89 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 2: seen before, but of course there's bones in them. Here's 90 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: an early post. 91 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 5: Just wanted to showcase something that I bet you guys 92 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 5: probably haven't seen before. This is one of the largest 93 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 5: human spine collections out there. 94 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: With deepest regrets, I do need to describe this for you. 95 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: John is panning over at least fifty human spines, just 96 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 2: spines on the floor, without context. Where did they come from? 97 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: Why does he have them? And look, I'm on board 98 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: with all of us being skin bags that need to 99 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: accept our own mortality, but this content just feels very 100 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 2: removed from humanity, I guess. But as John's Bones posts 101 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: grew in popularity, some viewers became uncomfortable with the casual 102 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: of his work, with the unclearness of how he had 103 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 2: acquired these damn bones, particularly when he started selling bones 104 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: after graduating college. John says that the bones he sells 105 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: on John's Bones is mainly used for medical research, but 106 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: that's not necessarily true. He does sell a lot to 107 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: medical institutions, by his account, but he also sells to 108 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: anyone in states where it's legal. And I'm not kidding 109 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: when I say this. On his website right now you 110 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: can buy a quote adolescent medical skull with several cuts, unquote. 111 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: For nearly four thousand dollars. 112 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: And I can't help but think, what whose bones are these? 113 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: John's bones? Because this is the thing with bones. If 114 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: you're looking at bones in a museum, in a medical setting, 115 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: whatever it is, chances are you were probably looking at 116 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: the bones of a poor person, and very likely a 117 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 2: non white or indigenous person. There's no guarantee that the 118 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: family of this skeleton gave their consent for it to 119 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: be used in this way, or even knows that ever happened. 120 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: For all intents and purposes, people who were disproportionately exploited 121 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: in life are often further exploited in death in this way. 122 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 2: And yes, there is a separate conversation about how it's 123 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 2: increasingly popular to donate one's body to science, but as 124 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: we'll find out, bodies voluntarily given to science are quite 125 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: open to exploitation as well. And prior to it being 126 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: more common to donate your body, the best way to 127 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 2: have bodies to study was you guessed it grave robbing, 128 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 2: and whose graves are easiest to rob those who do 129 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: not have tombs or coffins, which means we're already playing 130 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: a class game. Poor people who can't afford a deep 131 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 2: ground burial or cremation are more likely to have their 132 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: bone surfaced or if you're a grave robber, and I 133 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 2: would be fascinated to know if any. 134 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 3: Of you are grave robbers. 135 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 2: But the bodies of people who can't afford traditional funeral 136 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: routes are much more easily disinterred. So when you're looking 137 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: at a publicly displayed skeleton or any human remains, it's 138 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: not a question of what is that, it's who is 139 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: that and how did. 140 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 3: They get here. 141 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 2: In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, in particular, there was 142 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: a high demand in the skeleton trade as medicine and 143 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: science expanded quickly, leaving plenty of bad actors resorting to 144 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: grave robbing, swiping unclaimed bodies from local morgues, and even 145 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: looking to prisons where people had been recently executed. At present, 146 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 2: the most commonplace for bones to be sourced from is India, which. 147 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: Had a multimillion. 148 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 2: Dollar trade before the practice of selling bones was banned 149 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty six and what ended this industry while 150 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 2: fifteen hundred skeletons of children were being illegally traded and sold, 151 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: which led to a directive from the Indian Supreme Court 152 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 2: to halt all sales permanently. But skeletons from this gruesome 153 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: boom of time are now all but impossible to trace 154 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 2: to specific people, partially because of poor documentation and a 155 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 2: lot because of bone bleaching. Much of these samples identifiable 156 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 2: DNA has been destroyed, and this has been a completely 157 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: intentional practice for a very long time. Companies who sold 158 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,239 Speaker 2: these skeletons primarily targeted the vulnerable before destroying the skeleton 159 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: of any defining features, slapping a label on it, and 160 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 2: selling it as a product. And this is, as with 161 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: many seemingly unrelated topics on this show, an extension of 162 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: colonialism more than anything else. Scott Carney expands on this 163 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 2: in his book The Red Market, explaining how demand for 164 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: studiable bodies in English medicine caused the colonizing country to 165 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: start sourcing bodies from the same places they had been 166 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: colonizing Since the eighteen fifties. Calcutta, India was the global 167 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 2: center of the bone trade and primarily sold the bones 168 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: of their own disenfranchised people to the UK and the US, 169 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: quite literally selling the brutal consequences of colonialism back to 170 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: the colonizer. According to a twenty twenty two profile of 171 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: John's Bones, who sources much of his collection to the 172 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: companies that comprised these nineteenth century Western businesses, the nineteen 173 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 2: forty three Bengal famine. 174 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: Was a boone for the bone industry. 175 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: Because it had killed millions of poor Indian people who 176 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: could not afford a proper funeral or had lost everyone 177 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: in their family and had no one to advocate for them. 178 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 2: So the degree to which the bone trade is connected 179 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: to class, to race, and to colonialism really can't be overstated, 180 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: and there should absolutely be serious criticism for people unwilling 181 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: to acknowledge this kind of historic brutality while actively profiting 182 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: from it. And John's Bones doesn't really have a response 183 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 2: to this other than well, it's for education and it's 184 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: technically legal. This is a post from early twenty twenty. 185 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 5: Hi everyone, I'm gonna talk a little bit about what 186 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 5: I do because it always gets asked in the commons, 187 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 5: So here I go. So Hi, my name is John, 188 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 5: John I work with John's Bowen. That's my little business 189 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 5: I started there you go and Chunky Boys a mascot. 190 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 5: But essentially, the US is complete legal and there's no 191 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 5: federal regulation against the ownership, possession, or selling of human 192 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 5: blones and humanosity ology. 193 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: I am so sorry about that fucking vocal filter. It's 194 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: just sorry. I hate John's Bones. There I said, it 195 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 2: feels good. But this explanation that these sales are for 196 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: education and to possibly give stolen bones a second life 197 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: obviously falls apart under scrutiny. It's why Sam Redman, author 198 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: of the book Bone Rooms, pulled The Guardian in a 199 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: profile of John's Bones. 200 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 4: That there's no ethical way to buy and sell human 201 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 4: remains because there is a clear link between the legacy 202 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 4: of this and racism, and scientific racism and colonialism. 203 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 2: John's Bones admitted in twenty twenty one that his collection 204 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: was largely sourced from India, Russia and China, which most 205 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: likely means that the bones belonged to poor people and prisoners. 206 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: And that's not to say that America is any more 207 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 2: advanced when it comes to bone trading. As we'll get 208 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: into throughout this episode, laws around human remains are very 209 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: state to state and have not really been updated to 210 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: reflect inflation or advances in technology. As I'm recording this, 211 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: there are forty two states where it's completely legal to 212 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: sell human remains at your weird store. Selling human remains 213 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 2: on Etsy was only discontinued in twenty twelve and on 214 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: eBay in twenty sixteen. 215 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 3: When asked the question. 216 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 6: Where do you source your human remains from and is 217 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 6: it ethical? Do you believe selling human remains for profit 218 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 6: is ethical? 219 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: John replied, well. 220 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 4: The problem with these bones is that, regardless if you 221 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 4: agree with the means of which they entered the public market, 222 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 4: they exist. It is currently impossible to repatriate them due 223 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 4: to the cleaning processes they underwent when they first were 224 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 4: put on sale, and they can be destroyed because improper 225 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 4: disposal of human remains is a crime that leaves an 226 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 4: impossible object that has no easy solution for being dealt with. 227 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 4: Our solution is to re enter them into the educational field. 228 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: For profit, and not always for education, because while medical 229 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: institutions seem to be the primary buyers of John's bones, again, 230 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: he will sell to anyone. To quote Scott Karney in 231 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: that Guardian piece. 232 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 4: When we turn a human into a commodity. That's where 233 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 4: you start getting enormous ethical lapses, and John is on 234 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 4: the wrong side of that equation. 235 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: Woo Okay, you're thinking, Jamie, a TikTok bone sale drama 236 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: is wild, but surely an anomaly. Right, It's the result 237 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: of a misguided young person with too many bones, not 238 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: an issue that would eke out into a full on 239 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: institutional crisis. Right right, Well, what would you do if 240 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 2: I told you there is a current in litigation bone 241 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 2: drama at Harvard University? Does that sentence sound like a 242 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: Lana del Rey album? Sure it does, but it's happening. 243 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 3: Wait, let's turn on some Laanna del Rey style music. 244 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: What would you do if I told you there is 245 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: a current in litigation bone drama at Harvard University. Sorry, 246 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: I just had to try it, But it is true 247 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: that happened. And unlike John's bones, the sale of human 248 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,359 Speaker 2: remains was done extremely under the table here, very illegally, 249 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: because there is no world where the Harvard Medical School 250 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: is supposed to be doing anything other with their collection 251 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: than studying it. And for all of the reasons we 252 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 2: talked about, this does not mean, by a long stretch 253 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: that Harvard Medical School has their hands clean just because 254 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: they're not selling the human remains in their possession. The 255 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: bones on display and in possession of universities and museums 256 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: are very often directly tied to colonialism and white supremacy. 257 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 2: But for the sake of this scandal, Cedric Lodge, the 258 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 2: manager of the Harvard Medical School morgue, and six others 259 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 2: were indicted last year after over half a decade of 260 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 2: poaching from the university's vast collection of human remains and 261 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 2: selling them over state lines. Lodge was said to allow 262 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: buyers to enter the morgue and tell him what body 263 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 2: parts they were interested in buying, so he could then 264 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 2: privately steal them and sell and mail them from his 265 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: house in New Hampshire. And maybe most shockingly of all, 266 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 2: the maximum prison sentence that they face for this is 267 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: only fifteen years, in spite of the fact that, unlike 268 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 2: many of John's bones, some of these stolen body parts 269 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: from Harvard were very identifiable via donors who had given 270 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 2: their bodies to science just in the last couple of years. 271 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 2: To quote US attorney Gerard Kam. 272 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 4: It is particularly egregious that so many of the victims 273 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 4: here volunteered to allow their remains to be used to 274 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 4: educate medical professionals and advance the interests of science and healing. 275 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 4: For them and their families to be taken advantage of 276 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 4: in the name of profit is appalling. 277 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 2: Cedric Lodge netted around forty thousand dollars from the stolen remains, 278 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 2: and if you needed any more proof of how modern 279 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 2: grave robbing is now evidence that proved his guilts included 280 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 2: PayPal transactions with descriptions like head number seven and brains 281 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: And fascinatingly, both of these bone dramas drew comparison in 282 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: the media to what is considered to be the original 283 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 2: online bone theft drama, one that it appears John Bones 284 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 2: learned a lot from not because he thinks it's unethical 285 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 2: to sell human remains online, nor did Cedric Lodge, but 286 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: to do it smarter because the most famous example of 287 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:26,479 Speaker 2: human remains traded online put a witch in jail, the 288 00:19:26,520 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: tumblr Bone Witch and bone Gazi. Your sixteenth minute starts now. 289 00:19:51,800 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 2: S Welcome to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where we look 290 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 2: at the internet's main characters of the day, look at 291 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: how their moment affected them and what their moment meant 292 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: for the Internet and US, and today we're headed to 293 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: the graveyard for a revisit of the infamous Humbler bone 294 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 2: Witch story. And not to disappoint, but there is not 295 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 2: an interview with the bone witch themselves here, and the 296 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 2: reason that is will become clear. What we do have 297 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 2: are interviews with a practicing non bone stealing which a 298 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: graveyard preservationist in New Orleans and the only legal expert 299 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 2: on human remains in the United States. There should be 300 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 2: more than one, in my opinion. Now, as we've established, 301 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: grave robbers have been around forever. It's one of the 302 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 2: world's oldest professions and has developed alongside technology. It can 303 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 2: look like a lot of things. John's Bones is skirting 304 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: legalities to display disenfranchised people's bodies, as are most museums. 305 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 2: People like Cedric Lodge are thriving by pilfering already ethically 306 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: questionable collections. And you have things like the underground organ 307 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: trade that's operated on and offline for years. But today's 308 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: story is a little bit of old and a little 309 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 2: bit of new, an old school grave robbery whose morality 310 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: play acts out entirely online. I am genuinely very excited 311 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: to talk about this story. It is a classic of 312 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 2: the Internet, and both stories I told you about, particularly 313 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: the John's Bones story, mentions the Tumblr bone witch story 314 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: as the seminal social media grave robbing saga. 315 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 3: What a distinction. 316 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,239 Speaker 2: Back when John's Bones was going through that controversy in 317 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, a TikTok user named no Me named 318 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 2: Davis posted this. 319 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 5: I'd enjoy is my human spine collection and in the US, 320 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 5: there's no federal regulation to get the owner. 321 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 7: They tried to warn us, the Tumbla veterans. They tried 322 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 7: to tell us that TikTok is exactly like Tumblr. And 323 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 7: now here we are the great bone debate. Yet again, 324 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 7: Yet again, are we here? Why didn't we heed the warning? 325 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 7: Why didn't we need? 326 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 2: The comparisons were being made to the point where John's 327 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 2: Bones himself felt the need to respond, telling ABC News 328 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one. 329 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 4: The Tumblr bone thief is an example of what I 330 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 4: abhor and try to combat within the industry. We work 331 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 4: to preserve osteology so that future generations can learn from it. 332 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: Sounds legit to me, John's Bones, but this does speak 333 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: to the lasting impact of this incident, which was eventually 334 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 2: referred to by many as Bone Gazie the Place, New Orleans, Louisiana. 335 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: The tumblr Bone witch story is a meme unto itself, 336 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 2: but like every story on sixteenth Minute, it very real 337 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:07,239 Speaker 2: people living and dead, and it draws in a lot 338 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 2: of social media patterns that have repeated in the years since. 339 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: So come with me if you dare to. December twenty fifteen, 340 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 2: David Bowie makes his final public appearance before his death. 341 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: In early twenty sixteen, attending the debut of his musical Lazarus, 342 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: Donald Trump declares that if elected president, he will place 343 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: a Muslim band across the US and in New Orleans, Louisiana, 344 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 2: a practicing twenty something which named Endre Darling, who uses 345 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 2: they then pronouns. While you'll find that coverage of this 346 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: story often gets it wrong, is caught advertising the fact 347 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: that they are mailing human remains over state lines without 348 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: permission for witchcraft purposes. And let's get this out of 349 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 2: the way. I'm pro witchcraft. I've lived in LA for 350 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: almost a decade. Okay, i am pro witch and this 351 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 2: looks really bad for ender Darling. Here's what happened, and 352 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: I want to give a huge shout out to Diana 353 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 2: Tourge advice for writing me definitive timeline of this story 354 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 2: all the way back in twenty sixteen. On December eighth, 355 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, ender who it becomes relevant is white passing 356 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 2: but is not white posted to a Facebook group called 357 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 2: Queer Witch Collective. The description of the two thousand plus 358 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: member group was as follows. 359 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 6: We are a collective of queer witches, diverse in age, nationality, gender, race, 360 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 6: class ability, and more. To strive for a better community 361 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 6: for everyone, we must acknowledge how privileges and oppression intersect 362 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 6: across these labels. 363 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 2: And Darling's post said the following content warning graves, phone 364 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: hunting comment if they're added, worn need it. About twenty 365 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 2: minutes from my house in New Orleans is what we 366 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 2: call the poor man's graveyard. Most graveyards around here are 367 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: full of above ground graves because we live in a 368 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: fish bowl. But there happens to be a graveyard where 369 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: it's all in ground graves for those of us who 370 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 2: are too poor to afford above ground burial. When it rains, 371 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 2: of course, bones wash up. The older the grave, the 372 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: more you find you can literally walk around and see 373 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: Femur's teeth jaws, skull caps, et cetera, et cetera. This 374 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: is where I go to find my human bones for 375 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 2: cursework and general spells that require bone. I find human 376 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: bones are easier for work with for me than animal bone. 377 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 2: I can relate and work with the energy they carry, 378 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: if that makes any sense. Anyways, I wanted to see 379 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 2: if I started selling basically cover shipping to wherever you 380 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 2: happen to be, if people would be interested. I know 381 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: human bones aren't easy to come by, and I usually 382 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 2: have leftovers. I only go once a month or when 383 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 2: it rains here. The post is polarizing, but is received 384 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: positively in the group. 385 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: At first. 386 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 2: Some commenters just say yes, I'm interested. Others say this 387 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 2: sounds cool, but be careful of state laws. And Andrew 388 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: Darling responds to these concerns pretty quickly, saying I looked 389 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 2: it up and it's all good. I wouldn't even be 390 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 2: offering if there was any chance someone would get in 391 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 2: trouble me. 392 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 3: Lol. Okay, put a pin in that. 393 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: And others asked if Darling was making offerings to those 394 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 2: they were taking from, which is a common practice among witches, 395 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 2: and they respond that they bring honey and flowers and 396 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 2: that me and my goddess have a pact. She provides 397 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: the bones if I only take what the Earth gives 398 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: and I leave offerings. 399 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 3: Okay, put a pin in that. 400 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 2: But it's not long before they start to get pushed 401 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: back from people within the group who insist that the 402 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: bones should be left in peace. Er Darling gets defensive 403 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: and is supported by the mods of the Queer Witch Collective. 404 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 2: They say, do not shame me for my work. Now. 405 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 2: I was confused at first as to why the moderators 406 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 2: were so supportive of Darling in this case, but it's 407 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 2: connected to a pretty common rule in online communities, that 408 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 2: being don't shame the participants. Darling explicitly mentions that shaming 409 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: magical practices is not allowed in this group, and that 410 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: was true at the time. It's an extension of creating 411 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 2: safe spaces, and I've seen it as a commonly enacted 412 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 2: rule anywhere from private queer spaces to women's spaces to 413 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 2: in an outlier example, a right wing hate group that's 414 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 2: a part of MENSA. The group was founded by millennials 415 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 2: who per tourges piece were invested in the idea of 416 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: decolonizing magic and not forcing a white or western lens 417 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 2: onto a very diverse group's practice, and this is a 418 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: good idea. Safe spaces are necessary, but complicated because in 419 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 2: this case, Darling was asking to be kept safe from 420 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 2: criticism of grave wropping, and that did not make other 421 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 2: witches in the group feel particularly safe. So things spiral 422 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 2: out of control pretty quickly from here. Many of Darling's 423 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 2: loudest critics were people of color within the group, pointing 424 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: out that the area singled out in the post was 425 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: a burial site for primarily poor black residents of New 426 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: Orleans spanning hundreds of years, and based on their location, 427 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 2: most people guessed Darling was frequenting a place called Holt Cemetery, 428 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: although they initially deny this. One of their critics commented, 429 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 2: you were implementing white supremacist and colonialist tactics to do 430 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 2: your bidding, like y'all are actually stealing bones. But at 431 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 2: this point the controversy is still only within this Facebook group. 432 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: But when black witches in particular begin to speak up, 433 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: Darling and the moderators seem to realize that they need 434 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 2: to change course, and they attempt to the same moderator 435 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 2: who defended Darling hours before says. 436 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 6: I support people discussing the use and distribution of racialized 437 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 6: people's bones, especially the bones of black people, which very 438 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 6: well may be in this graveyard being given to non 439 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 6: black or especially white people. 440 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: Darling echoed this feeling, but for many critics they were 441 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 2: done with the Queer Witch Collective at this point, with 442 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: the general feeling being some safe space. This fucking was 443 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 2: and these moderators, who were white don't really know how 444 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 2: to handle the situation. A founder of the group, a 445 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 2: non binary trans which said the following about why they 446 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 2: initially defended Darling. 447 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 6: In the group, there is an immense amount of shaming 448 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 6: directed at African diaspar religions by white witches, whether it 449 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 6: be about animal sacrifice, hexing, cursing, jinxying, etc. All I 450 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 6: saw was a person of color being attacked for their practice, 451 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 6: even if it's something I did not understand or would 452 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 6: never do myself. 453 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: And this is a genuinely, very complicated issue. I won't 454 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: pretend it's not. There are spiritual practices and rituals that 455 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 2: involve human remains and might technically violate the law. In 456 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: the eight States where things are more restrictive, which includes Louisiana, 457 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 2: It's impossible to give the full scope of these spiritual 458 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 2: practices here, but it is true that different shades of necromancy, 459 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: or the practice of communicating with the dead, has included 460 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 2: the use of remains across cultures historically. Few months before 461 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 2: bone Gazi, there was a reckoning among whodoo practitioners, a 462 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 2: spiritual practice brought from enslaved Africans forced to come to America, 463 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,959 Speaker 2: and one that remained a predominantly Black practice while mixing 464 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: in elements of Christianity as time went on. In the 465 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: fall of twenty fifteen, Vice reported on the appropriation of 466 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 2: who do buy white witches? This was an active and 467 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 2: necessary conversation, and Darling invokes these cultures in their next defense, 468 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 2: singling out practices traditionally done by non white witches. However, 469 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 2: as many witches, including Darling's critics and my witchy guest 470 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 2: today can attest to, there isn't really a known practice 471 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: that encourages engaging with the human remains of a total stranger, 472 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 2: because the people who Darling was pulling bones from, by 473 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: their own admission, were completely anonymous. Nonetheless, it takes over 474 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: a week for this drama to leak outside the private 475 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 2: Facebook group to where, well, where else was there going 476 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: to be bone drama? In twenty fifteen, it was tumblry. 477 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 3: For those of you too. 478 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 2: Old, too young, or too protective of your peace of mind. 479 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: Tumblr is a still technically active blog site that peaked 480 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 2: in popularity in the mid twenty tens and was pretty 481 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 2: unique as far as social media sites went. Humbler thrived 482 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 2: on images on tightly knit, niche fan communities, on parasocial 483 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 2: relationships largely done with anonymity, and we could talk about 484 00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 2: Tumblr all day. But like any online community dominated by young, 485 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 2: anonymous people, the highs of Tumblr were fun and connective, 486 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 2: and the lows could get dangerous. It was a chaotic 487 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: place dominated by millennial women and queer people, making it 488 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: a very likely place for the ender darling drama to 489 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: end up with. A screenshot posted to user Hastel Pruveer's 490 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: tumbler on December seventeenth, the post. 491 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 6: Reads psa Tumblr user little fucking monster is stealing human 492 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 6: bones from cemeteries in Louisiana. Please don't let them get 493 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 6: away with this and spread the word slash signal boost. 494 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 2: The post got immediate traction, around thirty thousand reblogs and 495 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 2: a fair amount of skepticism, with other users asking for 496 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: proof that this had actually happened. But in pretty short order, 497 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 2: the original screenshot surfaced, and it's here that Ender Darling 498 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 2: saga hit the internet in earnest. Not only was a confirmed, 499 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 2: Darling's own Tumblr, Little Fuckin' Monster was exposed too, and 500 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 2: the Internet went wild. Bone Gazi had begun. 501 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 4: Today's big news Twitter, Martin Screli, Facebook, star Wars, Tumblr 502 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,720 Speaker 4: calling out a witch for actually stealing human bones from 503 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 4: a cemetery. 504 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 6: We have reached peak Tumbler. A call out post was 505 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 6: made for someone literally stealing human bones and offering to 506 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 6: sell them, with attached commentary about racism and classism, a 507 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 6: your favor is Problematic esque discussion made in lieu of 508 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 6: contacting the authorities. The post offering the bones had content 509 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 6: warnings at the top. It is the end of twenty 510 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 6: fifteen and Tumblr has become what it was always destined 511 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 6: to be. 512 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 4: Me on a date, So what do you think about 513 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,240 Speaker 4: real and dark witchcraft my date? It's okay, I guess 514 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 4: pretty scary though I like that glittery honey wicca ooh 515 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 4: ooh shit more me shoving my stolen human bones into 516 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 4: my purse. Shit, I gotta go. 517 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 2: And this is super goofy, although note the early what 518 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 2: is this woke culture bullshit and the shout out to 519 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 2: your favorite problematic Tumbler for an episode in a few 520 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 2: weeks foreshadowing the back half of twenty fifteen was considered 521 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 2: to be pretty dry in terms of big Internet stories 522 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: after an influx of viral stories like. 523 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 3: The dress Ever Heard of It? 524 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 2: Check out that episode of sixteenth minute took place earlier 525 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 2: that year. The tone of this discussion also said a 526 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 2: lot about how Tumbler was perceived at this time too, 527 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 2: a bunch of young people who were deeply entrenched in 528 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 2: discussions around decolonization and identity politics but were often thought 529 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 2: of as being naive and their approach to these pretty 530 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 2: massive issues and bone Gazi was mocked quite a bit 531 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 2: because to the average Internet user this seemed absurd and 532 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 2: any witchcraft practice, particularly one that violated state law, seemed 533 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 2: deserving of being mocked. But inside the witch in community, 534 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 2: this incident really strained relationships and mutually held values, and 535 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 2: part of that is because Darling themselves continued to double 536 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 2: down on Tumblr once that call up post became popular. 537 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 2: This post is long, So I'm just going to share 538 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 2: some highlights. 539 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 8: Long story short. A post that was posted in a 540 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 8: queer witch collective where cell is understood to mean cover shipping, 541 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 8: especially when I made that clear and curse is understood 542 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 8: to mean any spell you can cast on another physical 543 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 8: person was screenshot. Just my post, not the massive bread 544 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 8: that fucking followed and removed from the group where it 545 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 8: had contacts and posted. What has followed has been extremely racist, 546 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 8: especially towards those who still practice indigenous craft. Physical harm 547 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 8: has been threatened, including towards my child. Any who I 548 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 8: made a choice in what I thought was a safe 549 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 8: place for POC witch is especially POC which is who 550 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 8: practice indigenous dark or otherwise not wicken fluffy magic to 551 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 8: post something offering the little bits of bone I had 552 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 8: sitting on my altar to other POC, which is who 553 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 8: might use human bones in their practice. Somehow this blew 554 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 8: up into me digging out fucking bones. I'm not, I repeat, 555 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 8: I am not digging up bodies or bones. I've also 556 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 8: been heavily shamed for my indigenous practices. Here's the thing, 557 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 8: a bunch of focks. Magic is dark, magic is bloody. 558 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 8: Magic is scary magic isn't just fucking white light, fairy 559 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 8: dust bowls of honey on your damn altar. You can 560 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 8: all stop touting the threefold rule or wicked read or 561 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 8: karma thing that should apply to only those who believe 562 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 8: in it. Oh fucking stop. I'm not wicking, I'm not fluffy. 563 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 8: I work with death and bones, curses, in hexes, the dark, 564 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 8: and the things not for the feint of heart, and 565 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 8: you ain't about to shame me for it. Fucking y'all 566 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 8: want to pretend that I'm not in New Orleans where 567 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 8: I have watched black voodoo priests break into crips and 568 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 8: steal random full bodies. Y'all want to sit there and 569 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 8: pretend that gravekeepers aren't actually selling bodies or bones to 570 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 8: hospitals and colleges. Yeah, yeah, they have legal ways to 571 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 8: do it. But if you honestly think people aren't being 572 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 8: paid to bury empty coffins, you're way more naive than 573 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 8: I need to point out. Y'all want to be mad 574 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 8: at the kid who saves some phones from being crushed, 575 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 8: because fuck getting the actual story. 576 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 2: The post continues from here, and it was made the 577 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 2: same day that that call up post got traction and 578 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 2: it's here that we learn a little more about Ender Darling. 579 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 2: They're saying that they have been dockxed and that they 580 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 2: have a child, meaning that the call up post has 581 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: put them potentially in harm's way. And again there's a 582 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 2: split in how the Queer Witch Collective and now you know, 583 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 2: all of Tumblr are reacting to this news. Most are 584 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 2: not condoning doxing, and especially not to putting Darling's child 585 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 2: at risk, But some people are baffled that Darling appears 586 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 2: to be further confirming that they did indeed take bones 587 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 2: from a local graveyard, while others still point out that, 588 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 2: as Darling says, they're a person of color practicing indigenous 589 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 2: magic and it's not their place to judge. And so, 590 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 2: while the Queer Witch Collective's mission statement was well intentioned. 591 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 6: To strive for a better community for everyone, we must 592 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 6: acknowledge how privileges and depression intersect across these labels. 593 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 2: This became difficult to enforce after the Tumblr post exposed 594 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 2: the name of the group itself after a full week 595 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,879 Speaker 2: of Bone discourse had estranged their moderators from Vocal, which 596 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: is within the group. When it became clear that Darling's 597 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 2: most vocal critics were queer black witches. Within the Queer 598 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 2: Witch Collective, the whole shield of no shaming suddenly held 599 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 2: significantly less power and started to seem more like suppression. 600 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 2: One commenter said, there is a difference between shaming and 601 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 2: questioning possible ethics and possible oppressive practices. Why are we 602 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 2: silencing a black witch? The white moderators of the group 603 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 2: apologize for mishandling the situation, but the trust within QWC 604 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 2: was far too thoroughly broken by this time. The founder 605 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 2: of the group eventually ended up leaving, but the new 606 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,959 Speaker 2: moderator wasn't able to revive it after both suggesting white 607 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 2: Witches stop posting altogether for a period of time to 608 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 2: allow people of color to reclaim the space, and when 609 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 2: that didn't work, purging the group altogether so that people 610 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 2: would have to rejoin if they were interested in starting fresh. 611 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 2: But most were not interested, and a year later the 612 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 2: group had gone from two thousand to only seventy seven members. 613 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:16,919 Speaker 2: According to Weiss, bone Gazi had decimated the community. Things 614 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 2: wouldn't be that simple for Ender Darling. In the aftermath 615 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 2: of the Bone Fevery memes, there was originally some confusion 616 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 2: between Facebook and Tumblr whether anyone had reported Darling to 617 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 2: the authorities in New Orleans, but it became clear eventually 618 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 2: that someone had To this day, it's not known whether 619 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 2: this was initiated by a member of the Queer Witch 620 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 2: Collective or someone who learned through the viral moment, but 621 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 2: Ender Darling wouldn't be around to watch the fallout of 622 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 2: the QWC because they were still in the process of 623 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 2: defending themselves against the accusation that what they'd done was 624 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 2: illegal or unethical. Long after they left the Facebook group, 625 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 2: while the viral moment itself had cooled off by the 626 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 2: end of twenty fifteen into the holidays, Darling's home was, 627 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 2: unbeknownst to them, placed under periodic surveillance for about six days, 628 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 2: and at the end of January the home was raided 629 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,320 Speaker 2: by the police, along with a subpoena issued that collected 630 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 2: over twelve thousand pages of their Facebook correspondence, but they're 631 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 2: not arrested at this time. There was a weed charge 632 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 2: to them in their roommates, and there were bones removed 633 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 2: from the home eleven bones plus fourteenth to be exact, 634 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 2: and these were taken to be tested to confirm that 635 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,760 Speaker 2: they were in fact human, and for reasons I will 636 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 2: truly never understand. Their next move was to give an 637 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 2: interview to The Advocate in early April of twenty sixteen. 638 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 2: A lot was revealed in this interview. By this time, 639 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 2: Darling had apparently relocated to Florida and was continuing to 640 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,840 Speaker 2: defend their actions. They tell reporter Jim Mustian. 641 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 8: They were coming against seriously expecting to find bodies and 642 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 8: human organs, and having me and my roommates arrested for 643 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 8: black marketing human remains. You should have seen their faces 644 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 8: when they walked into the house and found a bunch 645 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,399 Speaker 8: of sleeping hippies. It was just a bunch of little 646 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 8: shards of bones and pieces of teeth I'd picked up 647 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 8: off the ground. I said to the agents, here you go, 648 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 8: there's probably human bones in there, but I know better 649 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 8: than to give you that answer. 650 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 2: And again their continued doubling down makes no sense to me. 651 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, man, my feeling, Jamie's feeling 652 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,799 Speaker 2: is never talked to the cops, especially to confirm that 653 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,280 Speaker 2: you have human bones in your house like this interview 654 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 2: is baffling to me, and it really does seem to 655 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:43,800 Speaker 2: further sabotage ender Darling's case because, as it was revealed 656 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 2: in September twenty sixteen, just a few weeks shy of 657 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 2: ken bones, Big moment, Everything's connected. Indre Darling was arrested 658 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 2: and was presently in jail in New Orleans. 659 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:56,720 Speaker 3: By this time. 660 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 2: The Advocate reported that they had, under their government name 661 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 2: Devin Marie Michuka, fled guilty to simple burglary and marijuana 662 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 2: possession and admitted that, unlike they'd said previously, they had 663 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 2: indeed taken human remains from Holt Cemetery as accused. They'd 664 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 2: been arrested back in July while living in Florida, after 665 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,280 Speaker 2: New Orleans detectives spent six months confirming that the bones 666 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,720 Speaker 2: taken from Darling's residence in January were in fact human. 667 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 2: Once they were arrested, they were brought back to New 668 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 2: Orleans and spent several weeks in jail before making a 669 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 2: plea bargain, and from what we can tell, walking free. 670 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,280 Speaker 2: So just to recap, we started here. 671 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 8: This is where I go to find my human bones 672 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 8: for cursework and general spells that require bomb and we 673 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 8: ended here are you pleading guilty to burgerlary of Holt 674 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,240 Speaker 8: Cemetery because you are in fact guilty of the charge. 675 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 8: Bar Us asked, yes, ma'am, Darling said, but. 676 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 2: Daring's true legacy is encoded in Louisiana law. This incident 677 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:06,799 Speaker 2: is said to have been influential on a piece of 678 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen legislation called the Louisiana Human Remains Protection and 679 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 2: Control Act, the first update to human remains laws in 680 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 2: the state since nineteen fifty. Included in that legislation. 681 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 4: The legislature further finds that existing state laws do not 682 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 4: adequately protect against the illicit trade in human remains, and 683 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,279 Speaker 4: that such trade needs to be stemmed in order to 684 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,359 Speaker 4: minimize looting and desecration of cemeteries. 685 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 2: I mean, a legacy can look like anything. The Tumblr bone, 686 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 2: which who identified by the Spanish term Bruja by the 687 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 2: time they were in court, hasn't cropped up online since 688 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 2: Ender Darling Devin Matchuka is thoroughly offline now from what 689 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 2: I can tell, I was not able to find them 690 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,040 Speaker 2: or speak to them for this episode, and that it 691 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 2: makes sense. If anything, A clear lesson to be learned 692 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:08,480 Speaker 2: from their saga is to perhaps say less and stop posting, 693 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:13,359 Speaker 2: because if you'll excuse the pun. They mistakenly dug themselves 694 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,280 Speaker 2: a major hole here, and after going through this story, 695 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 2: I felt pretty stumped because the way I see it, 696 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 2: what Enter Darling did was clearly wrong and something that 697 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 2: doubling and tripling down on made it clear that they 698 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,880 Speaker 2: may not have actually been well versed in the practice 699 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,920 Speaker 2: of magic and did not have a connection culturally to 700 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,360 Speaker 2: this practice, and certainly not to the potter's field bones 701 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 2: they were stealing. But my question really is does that 702 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 2: mean that a twenty somethings single parent should have been 703 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 2: thrown in jail? 704 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 3: I don't think so. 705 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,799 Speaker 2: And what's fascinating is that this wouldn't have been an 706 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 2: arrestable offense in many states. Darling's biggest mistake legally was 707 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 2: doing this in Louisiana, a state that I learned has 708 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 2: extremely strict laws around human remains. So I wanted to 709 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 2: collect a number of perspectives here, like so many bones 710 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,840 Speaker 2: in the rain, And that's what we're gonna do this Thursday, 711 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 2: when I get to the bottom of what bone law is, 712 00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 2: what American witchcraft looks like today, and whether it's the 713 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 2: bone witch was innocent after all. And until then, here's 714 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 2: your moment of fun. A question I've been asking for 715 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 2: almost ten years would beetlejuice, come wet or dry scabs? 716 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 2: Now keep in mind the wet scabs would sound like 717 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 2: an old laser jet printer printing out a full page 718 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:46,680 Speaker 2: color photo and calming. Dry scabs would sound something like 719 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 2: a deck of fresh cards being shuffled. Thank you for considering. 720 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,400 Speaker 2: Please send me your responses common subscribe. 721 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: We need this. I love you, Goodbye. 722 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,440 Speaker 2: Sixteenth Minute is a production of fool Zone Media and 723 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:08,360 Speaker 2: iHeart Radio. 724 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:10,399 Speaker 3: It is written, hosted, and. 725 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,960 Speaker 2: Produced by me Jamie Loftus. Our executive producers are Sophie 726 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 2: Lichterman and Robert Evans. The Amazing Ian Johnson is our 727 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,800 Speaker 2: supervising producer and our editor. 728 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,200 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Sad thirteen. Voice acting is 729 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 3: from Grant, Creator and Pet. 730 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 2: Shoutouts to our dog producer Anderson my Kat's Flee and 731 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 2: Casper and by pet Rockbert who will outlive us all Bye.