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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

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Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

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Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship

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Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me for Session to eighty one of

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Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get into our

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Speaker 1: conversation right after a word from our sponsors. This week,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Jamal Hill, an Emmy Award winning journalists,

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Speaker 1: creator and host of the podcast Jamal Hill is Unbothered.

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Speaker 1: She's also the founder of The Unbothered Network, a groundbreaking

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Speaker 1: podcast and production company. You may also be familiar with

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Speaker 1: her nearly twelve year career for sports conglomerate ESPN or

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Speaker 1: her prolific writing at the intersection of sports and race

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Speaker 1: as a current staff writer for The Atlantic and former

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Speaker 1: senior correspondent in columnists for The Undefeated. Today, she joins

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Speaker 1: us to talk about her newly released memoir Uphell, which

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Speaker 1: details her upbringing in Detroit, her longtime career in sports journalism,

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Speaker 1: overcoming a legacy of pain, and forging a new path.

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Speaker 1: During our conversation, we discussed the considerations and discussion she

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Speaker 1: had while writing about her family history, her career defining moments,

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Speaker 1: and how she prioritized her mental health while writing the book.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag tv

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Speaker 1: G in Session or join us over in the Sister

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Speaker 1: Circle to talk more in depth about the episode. You

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Speaker 1: can join us at Community not Therapy for Black Girls

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Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us today, Jamil, Well, thank you. I appreciate being here.

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Speaker 1: I've been really looking forward to this. Likewise, so happy

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Speaker 1: to chat with you about your memoir. Very excited for

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Speaker 1: people to be able to pick it up and check

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Speaker 1: it out. So it feels like you have done so

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Speaker 1: many things, you wear so many halves. Can you give

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Speaker 1: us a little bit of insight into who Jamal Hill

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Speaker 1: is today well. One of the best compliments I think

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Speaker 1: I often received from people, particularly for friends who have

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Speaker 1: known me for a long time, is that they feel like,

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Speaker 1: although I've grown and matured, that I'm the same person

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Speaker 1: that they met X amount of years ago. The core,

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Speaker 1: basic foundation of who I am has never changed. And

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Speaker 1: I do think that change and growth are different things.

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Speaker 1: I want to never change, but I want to always grow,

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Speaker 1: if that makes any sense, And so I think at

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Speaker 1: the core of it, I'm always going to be somebody

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Speaker 1: who certainly believes in working hard, but believes that life

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Speaker 1: should be lived with a sense of adventure. That's always

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Speaker 1: been something that's been really important to me. And so

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Speaker 1: as much as I'm doing fifty projects and I got

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Speaker 1: sixty two jobs, I still try to keep a sense

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Speaker 1: of adventure, that spirit and everything that I do. I

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Speaker 1: think that that is quite a compliment and quite the

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Speaker 1: feat for people who have known you for a significant

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Speaker 1: amount of time to say You've done different things, but

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Speaker 1: you have not changed. What do you attribute that to? Like,

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Speaker 1: that sense of being grounded, I think it has a

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Speaker 1: lot to do with the way that I grew up.

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Speaker 1: When you grow up in some of the challenging circumstances

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Speaker 1: that I did. I think about often some of those

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Speaker 1: very tough moments, bad moments, and I think because I

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Speaker 1: was able to persevere through that, that's why, like now,

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Speaker 1: in present day, it really would take a lot to

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Speaker 1: just kind of sort of get me down because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I think I've already seen the worst of it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: does not have to say that I won't face any

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Speaker 1: more obstacles or any more challenges or even things that

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Speaker 1: might be on the same level of what I experienced

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Speaker 1: as a child. But I think my perspective is just

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Speaker 1: so much different now. And because I know what it's

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Speaker 1: like to not have and know what it's like to

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Speaker 1: kind of be, you know, missing some core elements of

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Speaker 1: support around you, then it allows me to navigate this

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Speaker 1: life that I'm in now much differently with the respect

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Speaker 1: for it and appreciation for it, of course, and with

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Speaker 1: the understanding is that this could all go away and

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Speaker 1: smoke tomorrow, so I better make decisions and live my

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Speaker 1: life as enjoyably as I possibly can. M hm. So

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, was a book always a part of the

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Speaker 1: plan for you? Because this is your debut book, And

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Speaker 1: so I'm curious to know. Was it a memoir always

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Speaker 1: your choice? Did you consider writing something else? Tell me

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Speaker 1: you a little bit about the decision to even write

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Speaker 1: a book right now. A book was always something I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do. A book about myself was something I

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Speaker 1: never wanted to do. So no, this was not the

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Speaker 1: plan was to do a memoir first. I really want

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Speaker 1: to and I want to say it in present tense

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Speaker 1: to make sure that I do be right fiction, and

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Speaker 1: I think eventually I will do that, but this was

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Speaker 1: sort of the book that the market decided was the

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Speaker 1: one that had to be first, and I'm glad that

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Speaker 1: it worked out this way. That I had to kind

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Speaker 1: of be convinced to do this because going through this

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Speaker 1: journey of writing this memoir was very eye opening. I

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Speaker 1: had to unpack some things and unlock some doors that

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Speaker 1: I pad lockshut, and so this forced me to kind

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Speaker 1: of d with those issues again and remembering certain incidents

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Speaker 1: and having to relive some things That was not always

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Speaker 1: easy to do. But nevertheless, I feel better because I

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Speaker 1: was able to do that. So No, a memoir was

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Speaker 1: never in the plans. Wow, So tell me more about

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Speaker 1: like the convincing I'm guessing this is your agent the

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Speaker 1: publishing company. What was the convincing to say, hey, this

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Speaker 1: is what we feel like it's needed right now. It

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Speaker 1: was my literary agent, David Labell. He was chief among

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Speaker 1: the convincers, if you will. And as I said, the

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Speaker 1: market decided, which you know what that means money, I

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Speaker 1: mean to be frank, is that he had a really

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Speaker 1: good feeling because of the time of my life where

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Speaker 1: I was being approached about writing a book. He had

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Speaker 1: a really good feeling that this book would go to

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Speaker 1: auction many it would be several publishers bidding for it.

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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened. And so while obviously it

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Speaker 1: was my decision, I had the final say. So he

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Speaker 1: was just like, the book publishing business is hard, and

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Speaker 1: while I know you want to eventually write fit and

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Speaker 1: this is a great entry point for you to do.

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Speaker 1: So you write this book, if it's successful, then it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a lot easier to get people to buy

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Speaker 1: into a fiction product. So it was a combination of

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Speaker 1: you know, strategy and looking ahead money and just as

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Speaker 1: I said, you know, understanding that he felt like there

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Speaker 1: was a real audience for this story and that I

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Speaker 1: could really make this a transformative process. So yeah, he

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Speaker 1: convinced me, and I said, Okay, I'll just grip my

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Speaker 1: teeth and suffer through and write all of this. But

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Speaker 1: as I said, I'm so glad that I did it

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Speaker 1: because it really was a worthwhile experience. Mm hmmmm yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so it's a memoir, so it's incredibly personal,

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Speaker 1: you know, as you mentioned, lots of difficult experiences, and

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like at he's reading it you held

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Speaker 1: anything back. It is very honest, and so I would

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Speaker 1: love to hear if you're comfortable with sharing, like what

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Speaker 1: was the process of like talking to your mom and

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Speaker 1: your husband and maybe other family members, and what was

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Speaker 1: the process of letting them know that were about to

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Speaker 1: write this story. Well, of course, my husband, like he

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Speaker 1: knew first it was happening, and I mean certainly he

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Speaker 1: was aware of most of my story, but there were

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Speaker 1: just certain details I hadn't yet had an opportunity to share.

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Speaker 1: Because I think people who are married and attested this

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Speaker 1: is that even though you're married and you feel like

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Speaker 1: you know the core person and who they are and

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Speaker 1: you know their life story to a large extent, but

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Speaker 1: there's always moments and instances that you haven't quite feeled

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Speaker 1: in for them yet, not because you're trying to hide them.

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Speaker 1: It's just either it hasn't come up, or you haven't

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Speaker 1: thought about sharing it or whatever. And so I gave

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Speaker 1: him a sense of what I would be writing about it,

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Speaker 1: and he was the first person to read it, and

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Speaker 1: it's like raw's form, so that he would know everything

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Speaker 1: that was gonna be in this book. And of course

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Speaker 1: when you're writing a memoir, you have to think about

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Speaker 1: how it will impact the relationships that you currently have,

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Speaker 1: and even how people maybe you have not talked to

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Speaker 1: in a while, how they will look at what you

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Speaker 1: have written. So, yes, me and my mother, we had

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Speaker 1: a lot of conversations. Some of them were very difficult,

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Speaker 1: and difficult just in the sense of unfortunately she had

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Speaker 1: to replay and recount some very awful moments in her life.

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Speaker 1: And I made sure to save those moments for the

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Speaker 1: last conversations that we would have in the book, so

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't constantly a trauma call every time I

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Speaker 1: talked to her. And so she's become like the family

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Speaker 1: historian now, so she knows it could feel in for me.

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Speaker 1: Some other details that I didn't know about her early life,

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Speaker 1: about my grandmother's early life, about things like that that

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Speaker 1: I did not know. So it was also in the

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Speaker 1: process that I learned a lot about my family and

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Speaker 1: a lot about both my mother and my father and

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Speaker 1: my grandmother too throughout this. So I had the most

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Speaker 1: conversations with her. I had some with my dad. My

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Speaker 1: dad still has not read the book, and fool my

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Speaker 1: mother has and that was also a difficult conversation. Is

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Speaker 1: one thing if I'm interviewing you and we're talking about

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Speaker 1: it and you sort of know what's gonna be in

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Speaker 1: the book, it's another thing to read it. And there

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Speaker 1: were some things that her and I had an argument about,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, like, she was not happy with some

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Speaker 1: of the things that were in there. But we were

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Speaker 1: able to work through that and come to some compromises,

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Speaker 1: just in the sense again, when you write something like this,

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Speaker 1: you have to think about what does your relationship look

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Speaker 1: like with these people after this is out and after

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Speaker 1: the public has consumed it and they've had their opinions

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Speaker 1: about your life and the people you're writing about. And

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Speaker 1: I was very sensitive to that process, to say the least.

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Speaker 1: So the one thing she wanted me to remove I

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Speaker 1: actually removed it. But what was funny is that she

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Speaker 1: o came back later and after having thinking about it

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Speaker 1: and talking to some friends of hers that she really trust,

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Speaker 1: she said she thought she was wrong. Like she was like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I had a chance to think about it,

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Speaker 1: and you didn't have to take that out if you

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Speaker 1: didn't want to. But I had already done it, and

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Speaker 1: so I was like, well, just thinking about how I

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Speaker 1: want our relationship to be afterwards, I took it out,

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Speaker 1: and so she was really surprised. And so it was

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Speaker 1: an interesting journey for us in our relationship. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think my mother is like really comfortable with where

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Speaker 1: it is. But certainly there was a lot of tough

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Speaker 1: conversations throughout this entire process. M hmmm. And you mentioned

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Speaker 1: earlier that you had to do a lot of like

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Speaker 1: opening doors that you would rather have left clothes and

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Speaker 1: unpacking things. What did your support system look like while

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Speaker 1: writing the book. Well, my husband was wonderful throughout the process.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like I would write and then I go

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Speaker 1: talk to him about everything that I just you know wrote.

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Speaker 1: I think just him supporting me through it was like okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's like I'm sure it's fine, You're doing

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Speaker 1: a good job, just just encouraging me to continue to

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Speaker 1: like dig deeper and that the reactions to it would

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Speaker 1: be fine. And he knew how important it was for

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Speaker 1: me to write this book with a sense of authority

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Speaker 1: and transparency, and so, you know, just him just kind

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Speaker 1: of holding my hand so to speak throughout the process

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Speaker 1: was like, I think he just gave me the reassurance

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Speaker 1: that I kind of needed as I was writing this book.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So I was drawn in by the first

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Speaker 1: sentence of the book. So the book starts with I

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Speaker 1: started going to therapy on a dare And so you

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Speaker 1: talk about that, and you know, you talk about lots

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Speaker 1: of the experiences that may be led to you being

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Speaker 1: in therapy. Can you say how therapy has supported your

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Speaker 1: journey and even maybe what therapy looks like now as

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Speaker 1: you prepare for the launch of the book. It's funny

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Speaker 1: you brought that up, because one thing I definitely want

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Speaker 1: to do before my book tour starts is make sure

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Speaker 1: I have an exception with my therapist, right because this

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Speaker 1: will be very different than Yeah, I'm certainly I've been

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Speaker 1: interviewed thousands of times, so being interviewed, that is no

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Speaker 1: big deal. But I've never really been interviewed about my life.

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Speaker 1: Maybe some bits and pieces of my life. But this memoir,

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Speaker 1: as you said before, it's intensely personal. So I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be asked very personal questions about my life, and

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Speaker 1: so I want to make sure that I'm in the

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Speaker 1: right mental framework to do that, to answer these questions

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Speaker 1: repeatedly over and over, to be asked repeatedly about having

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Speaker 1: an abortion and some of the sexual abuse that my

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Speaker 1: mother suffered, like having to go over that over and

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Speaker 1: over again, and even doing book signings, having people who

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Speaker 1: read the book just asking me about that or sharing

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Speaker 1: their stories. So I have to make sure that I'm

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Speaker 1: in the right mental framework to handle all of that.

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Speaker 1: But for me, therapy was very i opening, and I

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Speaker 1: guess that's kind of a cliche word to use, because

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Speaker 1: I guess for everybody it is. And I remember the

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Speaker 1: very first session I had with my therapist, and I

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Speaker 1: started going to her in eighteen and our first session,

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Speaker 1: she told me something that, like, you know, just kind

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Speaker 1: of really hit me all up in the chest. She

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Speaker 1: was like, childhood lasts forever, That's what she told me.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, Hey, she is so right about this,

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Speaker 1: because we're constantly dealing with the impact of our childhood,

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Speaker 1: be at the traumas, whatever it may be. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's not to say you continue to be the same

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Speaker 1: person you were as a child. You obviously do not,

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Speaker 1: but it is to say that some of those things

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Speaker 1: you experienced they literally last forever, and that you're going

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Speaker 1: to be dealing with that. And so in addition to

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Speaker 1: be an eye opening, I think what I loved about

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Speaker 1: therapy is that it's forced me into a space of vulnerability.

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Speaker 1: It's the space I'm most uncomfortable with, and I mean

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Speaker 1: most of the memoir is about me on that journey

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Speaker 1: of trying to be more vulnerable because it just simply

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Speaker 1: was not the way that I was raised. And I

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Speaker 1: see the unintended consequences of not being able to embrace

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Speaker 1: or live in a space of vulnerability. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of black women, unfortunately, we get conditioned

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Speaker 1: to be out of that space, even though we're not perfect,

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Speaker 1: nor are we superheroes, and so we can't always be

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Speaker 1: all these things to so many other people and then

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Speaker 1: be nothing for ourselves. And so finding that balance and

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Speaker 1: being able to kind of appropriately deal with my vulnerability

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Speaker 1: issues has been a challenge, but it's been one that

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Speaker 1: I've always embraced. One of the things I love about

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Speaker 1: being married is that marriage forces you into that space

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Speaker 1: all the time. Marriage is a reflection, I think in

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Speaker 1: good and bad ways. It is a completely reflection. So

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Speaker 1: it exposes you, and so some of the things that

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Speaker 1: you don't want to deal with, you are forced to

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Speaker 1: deal with them in marriage. If you want to have

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Speaker 1: a good marriage, deal with them in order to be

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Speaker 1: better for the person that you've committed to. You say

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Speaker 1: something that made me think I have always wondered, like,

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Speaker 1: is there some kind of after care or is there

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Speaker 1: a group of people who like prepare you to release

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Speaker 1: a memoir to the public, because I think it's different

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Speaker 1: than like a fiction book, right, Like people project all

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Speaker 1: kinds of stuff. But you're right, like, I think you

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Speaker 1: should be prepared on your book tour for people to

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Speaker 1: ask you very personal questions even though you've shared very personally,

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Speaker 1: but also for them to identify so much with your

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Speaker 1: story and your mom's story and your family story that

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Speaker 1: it will also encourage them to share their own stories

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Speaker 1: that may be very difficult. Do those kinds of conversations

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Speaker 1: happen like cans your Asian or the publishing house had

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Speaker 1: you down and say, Okay, here's what to expect. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think they would be probably the candidates for that.

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Speaker 1: But what I have done is talked to other authors

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Speaker 1: who have written memoirs. And I had a conversation with

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Speaker 1: a friend of my Gabrielle Union, and she's released essentially

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Speaker 1: to memoirs. Right, We're not gonna need more wine, and

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Speaker 1: I'll have another and and it she shares the fact

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Speaker 1: that she was sexually assaulted when she was a teenager,

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Speaker 1: I believe, And so she talks about the crippling effect

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Speaker 1: of that and then the multiple miscarriages that she has.

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Speaker 1: So she was telling me when she was on her

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Speaker 1: book tour about how mentally it was just really tough

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Speaker 1: to deal with the fact that women were constantly coming

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Speaker 1: up to her telling her their stories of sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: And she was like, it was a lot to deal

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Speaker 1: with because like, you don't want to relive the worst

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Speaker 1: moment of your life every single day for three weeks,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, or four weeks, however long

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Speaker 1: she was on tour. She did a nationwide tour and

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Speaker 1: so just hearing how she handled it, what it was

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Speaker 1: like for her coming out of that, her taking a

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Speaker 1: break and taking some time to collect herself, it was

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Speaker 1: very helpful for me so that I can maybe figure

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Speaker 1: out a way to set some boundaries with that. It

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Speaker 1: would be quite an interesting mix because you want to

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Speaker 1: set the boundaries, but you also have a book to sell,

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Speaker 1: so it's like you have to figure out what that

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Speaker 1: looks like for you. And so I think as I

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Speaker 1: go through the first week of it, or you know,

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Speaker 1: the first couple interviews, that I'll be able to have

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Speaker 1: a better handle about what kind of space mentally that

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Speaker 1: puts me in after doing these interviews, and everybody's not

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Speaker 1: going to ask about all the trauma, Like there are

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Speaker 1: other things that are in the book that people will

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Speaker 1: ask me about. So I'm not going in with the

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Speaker 1: expectation that they're just gonna be like entire trauma conversation.

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Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to make sure I'm as mentally

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Speaker 1: healthy as possible to deal with the after effects of that.

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Speaker 1: M hmm. And I think that follow up session with

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Speaker 1: your therapist as you prepare for the Yeah, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have one with her before I go on the tour

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Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna have one with her when I

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Speaker 1: come off the tour, right right, So what do you

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Speaker 1: feel like we're the toughest chapters for you to write?

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Speaker 1: Do any come to mind? Oh? Yeah. When I was

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Speaker 1: interviewing my mother, there were things she told me I

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Speaker 1: did not know at all, like about things she experienced

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Speaker 1: as much as I was a spectator and a bystander.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately too, when she was really embroiled deeply in her

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Speaker 1: drug use, and as much as I saw even through that,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of stuff I clearly did not

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Speaker 1: even see or no. So the tougher parts, for one,

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Speaker 1: is when she told me the story of her being

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Speaker 1: raped in Texas. And I knew she was raped in Texas,

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Speaker 1: and I've known that, you know, my whole life. I

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Speaker 1: never got the breakdown of everything that happened, and so

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Speaker 1: for her to go into detail about how she was kidnapped,

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Speaker 1: essentially because she was taken outside of her apartment by

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Speaker 1: what the police believed to be a serial rapist in

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Speaker 1: the area. So having her go through that, and it

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Speaker 1: was probably the first time in a while that she

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Speaker 1: had probably talked about it in such detail, to the

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Speaker 1: point to where she could remember certain smells and certain

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Speaker 1: feelings and just things like I didn't know that she

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Speaker 1: was given a morning after pill when she got the

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Speaker 1: kid at the hospital, So these little details were tough

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Speaker 1: for me to here, even though I knew this is

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Speaker 1: what happened to her. Another story she told me that's

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Speaker 1: in the book is about her basically hiding out in

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Speaker 1: a rat infested trap house because she had come there

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Speaker 1: looking for drugs. And I never even knew that story,

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Speaker 1: so I had no idea. You know, I didn't know

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Speaker 1: that her drug use actually started when she was like

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Speaker 1: ten or eleven years old, so I didn't know that either.

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Speaker 1: So those are tough chapters and moments to write about,

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Speaker 1: and because when I'm sending her back to a place

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Speaker 1: that she, you know, as is very distant from because

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Speaker 1: my mother has been drug free for decades now, so

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Speaker 1: it was trying like to hear about that and to

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Speaker 1: understand just how much my mother had been through. And

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Speaker 1: I've always known she's been through a lot, but this

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Speaker 1: like really put it into very distinct detail, like what

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Speaker 1: she had actually been through. So, you know, I guess

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Speaker 1: when you're somebody's child, regardless of your age, it's inherently

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00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 1: selfish existence to be a child, because everything is about you.

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Speaker 1: Write about how you're taking care of how you're doing,

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Speaker 1: and so your parents focused on you once they have you,

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Speaker 1: like the rest of your life, your parents are somewhat

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Speaker 1: focused on you, and so what happens is that you

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Speaker 1: don't learn nearly enough about them as you should. And

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Speaker 1: so as part of this memoir writing process, I've told

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Speaker 1: a lot of my friends, I was like, listen, while

395
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,439
Speaker 1: your parents are still here, asked them every single question

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Speaker 1: that you can, because as I was writing this, as

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Speaker 1: close as me and my grandmother were, there was so

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Speaker 1: many questions I didn't ask her that I had as

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Speaker 1: I was writing, and I was like, I wish you

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Speaker 1: were still alive, so I can ask her some of

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00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 1: these things, not necessarily for this book, but just to

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00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,119
Speaker 1: learn more about her early life and to put together

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Speaker 1: the pieces of like how she came to be the

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Speaker 1: person that she was. So yeah, there was a lot of,

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Speaker 1: you know, challenging moments. There's also kind of a lot

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Speaker 1: of funny moments to relive and write about it as well.

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Speaker 1: But probably the more challenging parts were writing about my

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Speaker 1: mother's trauma. MM hmm. Yeah. More from my conversation with

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Speaker 1: Jamal after the break. So what was it like to

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Speaker 1: look back over your career as you were writing this book?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you still have a lot of career, I think, Levet,

412
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Speaker 1: but there's been a lot of career already. So what

413
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Speaker 1: was it like to look back over there to prepare

414
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Speaker 1: for the book? Mostly? I just realized how old I am.

415
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Speaker 1: I was just like, kind of old. I've been doing

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Speaker 1: this for so long. It dawned on me as I

417
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Speaker 1: was writing that I've been a paid journalist. It's I

418
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Speaker 1: was sixteen years old, okay, so that is spanning thirty years,

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Speaker 1: And that in itself is just a tremendous blessing because

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, when they identify what their life's

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Speaker 1: work is and identify their passion, they don't necessarily get

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Speaker 1: paid to do it right away. I got paid to

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Speaker 1: be a journalist right away when I started working for

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Speaker 1: the local paper in Detroit. That's what I was paid

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Speaker 1: to do. And to realize too that I haven't had

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Speaker 1: that many jobs outside of journalism, maybe like two, and

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00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 1: those are part time, just kind of seasonal things that

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Speaker 1: I was doing. That nothing on any kind of a

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Speaker 1: full time basis. But every job I've had as a

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Speaker 1: professional has been journalism related, and it just kind of

431
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 1: put me in the space of gratitude of understanding like

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Speaker 1: just how rare that is. And my husband tells me

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Speaker 1: this all the time, is that you know, I have

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Speaker 1: the privilege of identifying early what I wanted to do,

435
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: and also the privilege of always being paid to do

436
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: that thing that I love to do, because, as he

437
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: reminds me, like so many people have jobs they don't

438
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 1: really like or are not in passionate professions. Really, as

439
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,959
Speaker 1: I recounted the different stages in my career in in

440
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: the memoir, it kind of brought that home even further, like, Wow,

441
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 1: I'm truly blessed to being able to have done this

442
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: for thirty years. M hmmm. Yeah. A part of the

443
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 1: story that a lot of people will probably be most

444
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: familiar with was your time at ESPN. So can you

445
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about how your career they're

446
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 1: kind of wrapped up and what lessons you've learned from

447
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 1: that experience. Well, you know, ESPN, I was there twelve years.

448
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: It's the longest job I've ever had. It's certainly the

449
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: best job I ever had. The last couple of years

450
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: were rocky, and I write about them very transparently in

451
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: this book, particularly after the tweet that changed my life

452
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 1: happened with Donald Trump and what that experience was like.

453
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 1: But one thing that ESPN taught me, or among the

454
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: many things, because it's more than just one thing, I

455
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: learned a lot. I mean, the journalist that I was

456
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 1: when I got to ESPN was not the journalists who

457
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: I became aim when I left. It was a much

458
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: better journalist, Like I was so much more well rounded.

459
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: I learned so many different mediums at ESPN, like it

460
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: was a true I wouldn't necessarily call it a training ground.

461
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 1: It was more like a very intense boot camp where

462
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: you came out of it and you slimmed out about

463
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: twenty pounds and you're in the best shape of your life.

464
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 1: That's how I felt leaving ESPN, and I think it

465
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: taught me about my value, my worth, also about how

466
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: the next phase of my career. It really put the

467
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: battery in my battery pack to make sure the next

468
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: phase of my career was about ownership and autonomy. And

469
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: while ESPN was so great for my career and a

470
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: number of ways, the one downside about being there is

471
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: that you are property of ESPN essentially, like there's not

472
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: a whole lot you can do outside of being at ESPN.

473
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: And I realized just how much my professional freedom meant

474
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: to me being there, And once I left there, I

475
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: just kind of mentally decided, like, I'm never going to

476
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: be in that space again where I'm beholden to one

477
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: entity and do not have the freedom to do other

478
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: things that I feel like would amplify you know, who

479
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: I am, or amplify my brand. So it definitely taught

480
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: me the value of that, and also that I think

481
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: you know so much in your career you're striving for stability,

482
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: and stability is great, particularly financial stability is great, right,

483
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: But I think now like I'm okay that if I

484
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: get a project or a job that just last a

485
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: couple of months, as long as I'm fulfilled in doing that.

486
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: And you know a lot of times we professionally, we

487
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: chase contracts for the length of time, and I'm learning

488
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: the the shorter the contract, the better, to be honest,

489
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 1: So it's just kind of switched up my mentality coming

490
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: from a more traditional mindset like oh, gotta work for

491
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: one network or one media outlet and that's it. But

492
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: now I'm just like, I'm a higher gun, I'm a

493
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: mercenario here, like I work for thirty differ networks. At

494
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 1: the same time, I don't care. It's like cut the check.

495
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, just understanding the value of my freedom.

496
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: It really brought that home. I mean, once I left

497
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: ESPN for the first time in my professional career, I

498
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: was able to pick where I wanted to live. And

499
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: that was like a crazy, exhilarating feeling for me. You know,

500
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: me and my husband we moved to Los Angeles because

501
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 1: you know, we were able to sit down and say, Okay,

502
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: personally and professionally, where's the best place we want to be?

503
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: All right? Who doesn't have no, they're in the conversation

504
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: if they don't have so so it felt really good

505
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: to feel more in control of my life once I

506
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: left ESPN. You know, had there been inklings of that

507
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: for you even before, like the tweet that changed everything?

508
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: Like has you kind of been feeling restless and like

509
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: you wanted to establish yourself as more of your own

510
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: brand even before then? Oh yeah. But the funny thing

511
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: is what I thought about doing was not really about

512
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: my own brand. It was more or less about me

513
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 1: separating from something that I didn't love. The last shot

514
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: I had at ESPN was as SportsCenter anchor. It was

515
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: the worst job that I had ESPN. I knew within

516
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: a couple of months after we took that job. I

517
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: was like, this ain't for me. I knew it. I

518
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: told my co host at the time, Michael Smith, a

519
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: dear friend of mine. I said, Mike, I'm gonna make

520
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: it to the end of this contract, and that's gonna

521
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: be it for Sports Center for me. The problem was,

522
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: we had at that point three more years of me,

523
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: so that was gonna be a long wait, and it

524
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: was just like, man, how am I gonna get through this?

525
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,959
Speaker 1: And of course you hope that maybe things will improve,

526
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: but there was a very significant change in leadership that

527
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: happened before the Trump thing' even happened. So I was

528
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: already in the thought process of I'm not very fulfilled

529
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: or happy doing this and wondering what the best strategy

530
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: was to leave. And so I didn't know if leaving

531
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: meant just leaving Sports Center and doing something else at ESPN,

532
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: or if leaving meant just leaving ESPN altogether. So before

533
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: the tweet, those were very dominant thoughts in my mind

534
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: about something that makes me feel much more fulfilled than

535
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: this does. In the book, when you're talking about talking

536
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: to your mom about leaving ESPN, you talked about her

537
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: describing you as angry and you're feeling uncomfortable with that label.

538
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: Can you talk about how your relationship to anger has

539
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: changed since then? If it has, well, you know what,

540
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: anybody who knows they would never describe me as angry,

541
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: And so I was kind of thrown off with my

542
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: mother said that. But I think, and we do this

543
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: a lot of times with people, is that sometimes people

544
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: confuse anger and passion. I'm passionate about what I do

545
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: and who I am and defending myself. But I'm not angry,

546
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: just not. I'm like, I'm not. I don't wake up

547
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: mad at the world with my fist raised in the

548
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: air like that's not even if it really in my personality. Yes,

549
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: there are things that make me angry, as they should. Yes,

550
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: in justice makes me angry, Racism makes me angry. A

551
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,239
Speaker 1: lot of things that we face as a society make

552
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: me angry when I see those things. But I try

553
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: to approach what I do from a sspect of a

554
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: passionate determination, not through anger. And so when I started

555
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: therapy and after my mother accused me of being angry,

556
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: I think some of that and you know her and

557
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time for years unpacking this

558
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: is that there's a part of me that always feels

559
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: like my mother feels like I haven't forgiven her for

560
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: the things that happened in my childhood that I was

561
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: able to endure and the vote of forgiveness left for

562
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: me a long time ago, like I've forgiven her years ago,

563
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: like a loone time ago. And so if I give

564
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: her pushback about some of the things that she says now,

565
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: then I'm angry, And I'm like, no, I'm not angry,

566
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: I just don't agree with you. Like there's a there's

567
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: a difference for anybody there who has any kind of

568
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: relationship with your mother, you know that, Like, especially if

569
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: they're not accustomed to that pushback, they don't really like that,

570
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So I think some of

571
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: that It comes from that place, and I needed her

572
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: to understand that this is not anything rooted in angerous

573
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: and rooted in the fact that I disagree and I'm

574
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: going to push back on you a little bit. Mm hmmm.

575
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: Have you and mom done any therapy together? No, but

576
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: we should And I was just like, I better even saying,

577
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: try to be funny, like we have surfaced the idea.

578
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: I think my mother would definitely be open to it.

579
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: I certainly would, So maybe after this book tour, that's

580
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: something we need to get to quickly. More From my

581
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: conversation with Jamal after the break, Yeah, I mean, when

582
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: I hear you say stuff like you know she thinks

583
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: I haven't forgiven her, I'm thinking like, oh, a conversation

584
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: with the therapist might be a great place to have

585
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: some of those conversations for you to maybe even hear

586
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: more about what she's still thinking that may not even

587
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: be true. Yeah, No, I mean I think you're a

588
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: hundred percent right, And it's like, I want to definitely

589
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: do that because I think it would be very helpful

590
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: for our relationship and one thing I definitely thought about

591
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: on this memoir journey because there's gonna be times where

592
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: we're actually interviewed together, which has never really happened. So

593
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: how we do that It's going to be very fascinating

594
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: because I'm just really curious and as I told my mother,

595
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: I was like, be as honest as you want to be,

596
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: or set your own boundaries. Like I'm not here to

597
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: tell you how to conduct yourself at all. It's like,

598
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: I think you have your own story. You have a

599
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: right to tell it in your way and from your perspective,

600
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: and do that. This book is just my perspective, but

601
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: you have your own. You certainly will offer that. I

602
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: think people will really be inspired by because my mother

603
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: has an incredible testimony, and so I think as this

604
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: memoir gets out there, I think she'll see just how

605
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: inspiring she can be to people. But yeah, I completely

606
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: agree with you. It's like we we should definitely go

607
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: to some therapy. I know other friends who are going

608
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: to therapy with their moms. I can't say it's turned

609
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: out well, but I'm not. But at least you'll win.

610
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: That's right. You just try and see, you know, see

611
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: what how much you never know? It feels like there

612
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: is this very clear thread throughout the book. As you're

613
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: talking about your column on the Celtics and the sexual

614
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: harassment with the female kicker Katie Nida and the Trump tweets,

615
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: like it is very clear that there is a use

616
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: of your voice with like confidence in conviction. I want

617
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: to hear how your podcast and how starting and launching

618
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: your own podcasts and network has really helped you to

619
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: kind of hone your voice as a journalist. Once I

620
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: left ESPN, one thing I wanted to get back to

621
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: doing is having conversations with people. And although you do

622
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: have them when you're in the midst of a daily

623
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: talk show, there are five six minute conversations tops, so

624
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: very short. You don't get to unpack some things, or

625
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: you don't get the vulnerability, you don't sometimes get the

626
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: honesty in a five minute interview, And so I wanted

627
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: to go back to some of the original reasons that

628
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: I became a journalist in the first place, and that

629
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: was to talk to people and to help them share

630
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: their stories. Especially with the time that we're in now,

631
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: it's important that we have some like really critical conversations.

632
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: So the podcasting medium was very conducive to that. And

633
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: as my own podcast launched and had its success, when

634
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: happened and obviously in this country we're having a lot

635
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: more conversations about racism, and just had we reached that

636
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: watershed moment where we were finally ready and willing to

637
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: do the hard work to do something about it. It

638
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: was a perfect time to approach Spotify about creating a

639
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: podcast network for black women that was black women lad.

640
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: That second part of that is very important, and the

641
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: reason I thought that now was the time to do

642
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: it is because frankly, corporations seemed more interested in actually

643
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: financially supporting black content creators and just looking around and

644
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: seeing all the dynamic things black women were doing. That part,

645
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: of course, is very inspiring. You know, you have black

646
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 1: women saving Wakonda, got Stacy Abrams out here trying save democracy,

647
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: You've got Combla Harris trying to say the country. I mean, like,

648
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: all of this is happening, and black black women were

649
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: really seizing and stepping into their power. However, that to

650
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: me was such an incomplete story about who we were. Yes,

651
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: black women are dynamic, successful overachievers, but that's not all

652
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: we are. And also, our function in society is not

653
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: to save everybody. Sometimes the way we can save everybody

654
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: is about saving us saving ourselves, right, And I'm thinking, like,

655
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: if all these black women are out here saving everyone else,

656
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: who is saving us? And so I wanted to create

657
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: a network that represented the full picture of who Black

658
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: women are, how Black women worship, how Black women laugh,

659
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: how Black women love, how Black women relate to their families.

660
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: So there were buckets As I was thinking about a

661
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: podcast network that I wanted to try to feel dynamic

662
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: black women creators and just give us the subject matter

663
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: that I think we've really been looking for that explore

664
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: us in more fullness. So I'm really excited about the network.

665
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: Our first two shows launched the first week of November,

666
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: one of which is called Sanctified, which I mentioned like

667
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: one of the things I wanted to look at is

668
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: how Black women are worshiping today, and Sanctified as a

669
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: podcast with Levon Briggs. As she describes, I told her,

670
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: I thought this description was so cool. A sex positive

671
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 1: woman is preacher and I love that description. And also

672
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: debor Joy Windings, and you know any time the Last

673
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: Night Windings, you know exactly what family that is from

674
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: one of the legacy families in gospel, and you know

675
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: they are going to really get into some taboo topics

676
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: that are talked about both in the pulpit and outside

677
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: of church, like talking about purity culture in churches and

678
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: marriage and sexuality and all these other really taboo topics

679
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: when it comes to how we discuss things within a

680
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: Christian religious framework. So I'm really excited about that one.

681
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: And then another podcast we have launching with these two

682
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: dynamic hosts of Brittany and Germany. It's called Black Girl Pravado,

683
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: and they are an existing podcast that we license exclusively

684
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: now to Spotify, and they're in the wellness space, but

685
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: this is not your normal sort of wellness space in

686
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: the sense like you have your sins, you have your

687
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: own that they are coming straight from the hip pocket

688
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: and talking about self care in a way that I

689
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,720
Speaker 1: think is super relatable to a lot of women, particularly

690
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: young women, millennials and sillennials, because they stooped just straight

691
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: from the straight from the hip for them listening to

692
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: Little Kim's probably self care. So they they're very they're

693
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 1: very funny, they're very earnest, genuine, authentic, and just bold

694
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: and I love them both. So both these podcasts, I'm

695
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: so proud that these are initial offerings. So I'm really

696
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: excited about the possibilities of where this network could be

697
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: because if I get it to where I envisioned it

698
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: when I first came to Spotify, this will easily be

699
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 1: the biggest thing I've ever accomplished in my career. Mm hmm.

700
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you for sharing that. So, what

701
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: advice would you give to young journalists, you know, early

702
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: career journalists who may be struggling and want to speak

703
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: out about injustices, but are worried about pushback from their employers. Well,

704
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: I think you have to let the journalism be your activism,

705
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: focus on the craft, on telling good stories, stories that

706
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: you feel like illuminate what are very pervasive issues in

707
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: a different way. We know injustice is everywhere, but sometimes

708
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: it's the way you tell a story that gets people

709
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: to understand the gravity of something happening. I think about

710
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: a friend of mine, Wesley Lowry, who is a great writer,

711
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: and he was one of the writers during Ferguson. He

712
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: got arrested, he was right on the scene, but he

713
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: created this whole lane of looking into all these police

714
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: killings of black people, and you know, created a database.

715
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: He didn't really good investigative work, and it all stems

716
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: from him understanding that, you know, when black people are

717
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: pulled over by the police, our life is at risk

718
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: pretty much, I mean every single time. And from there,

719
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: doing the reporting to support what was clearly a very

720
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: deep societal problem. So if you're a journalist who is

721
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: in the early stages of your career, you don't have

722
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 1: to go into your boss is just spouting opinions. Give

723
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: them a story that they can get behind that illuminates

724
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: the issue that you feel like needs to be discussed,

725
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: being police brutality, be it housing discrimination, whatever the topic is,

726
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: find a story, put a face to it that will

727
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: get people to maybe buy into an issue in a

728
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: different way. M hmm. Such a good information. I really

729
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: appreciate you and Wesley's work is incredible, So I think

730
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: that's a great example to give people. So as we

731
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: wrap up, can you say little bit about what you're

732
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: hoping people will take away from uphill? What are you

733
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: wanting people to leave with? Well, it's a few things,

734
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: but I think mostly you know, I think, if anything,

735
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: when you read my memir, you see the numerous challenges

736
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: I faced, and then you see where I am now.

737
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: Like a lot of people thought I was born on

738
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: SPI and I was like, no, I wasn't. It's a

739
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: whole life that happened before I ever got to ESPN.

740
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: But they see sometimes the completed team photo, but they

741
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: have no idea like what's going on behind that photo.

742
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: I hope do anything that people will be inspired to

743
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: overcome whatever is the challenge in their life and understanding

744
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: that however you grew up, what you did or what

745
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: you didn't come from, is not a predictor of your future.

746
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: You are able to control, even in the dire circumstances,

747
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: a lot more than you think that you can. And

748
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: so I hope it inspires people to be driven to

749
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: be purposeful and whatever it is that they pursue, because

750
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: that's certainly something that I have been able to lean

751
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: on and my whole career, like my whole life, I

752
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: should say, like, I don't know where my life would

753
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: be if I didn't pursue journalism the way that I did,

754
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: with such a single minded focused and passion and knowing

755
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 1: that nothing was good to stop me from doing this.

756
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: And so I have to think it's kind of funny

757
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: because we hear stories from you know, entertainers or whatever,

758
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: how they talk about like that. You know, I sung

759
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: because I was trying to get about a poverty. Well,

760
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: I wrote my way out of property, you know, I

761
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: journalism my way if I can make up a word.

762
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: I journalism my way upout poverty. I think that what

763
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: you should also take away is that if you're passionate

764
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: about something, you will be the best at it. You

765
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: will make money. You know, when I was coming out

766
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: of school, out of college, journalists were making nineteen thousand

767
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: dollars a year. That was an average stary right my

768
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: first year and my first job out of college, I

769
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: made twenty two. I was already above the game, right,

770
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: And a lot of kids and I cautioned them against this.

771
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: They picked careers based off how much money they make.

772
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,919
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying money it shouldn't be a factor, yes,

773
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: but if you pick it based off, hey, I'm gonna

774
00:40:58,160 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: be an engineer because they make a lot of money,

775
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: will never sustain you. You'll be out of engineering and

776
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 1: within a couple of years because it won't be enough

777
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: to keep you in it. And so if you just

778
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: pursue the things you love to do those things you love,

779
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: you will make the money. The money, the success you

780
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: want will all come because your love will be able

781
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: to sustain you during those challenging times in your career,

782
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: and it will also push and drive you to take

783
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: certain risks and to bet on yourself and those kind

784
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: of things. You know, I love this profession now just

785
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,919
Speaker 1: as much as I did when I was making thirty

786
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 1: dollars a story in college. So to me, there's no difference.

787
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: And so if you can find something that gives you

788
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: that amount of like joy and passion, that's the thing

789
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: you do, and that's the thing that you commit to

790
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: and focus on and don't let people stop you from

791
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: achieving and doing your best. M great advice, I thank

792
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: you for sharing it. So where can we stay connected

793
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 1: with you? Jamal? What's your website as well as any

794
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: social media handles you'd like this year? Well, my social

795
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: media handles are all the same, just Jamalel, so you

796
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: can certainly keep track of me there on by the network,

797
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: we have a website as well, so if people want

798
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: to go and check it out to find out about

799
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: the show's launching, or even if they have podcasts submissions themselves.

800
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: We have people that have submitted original podcast ideas that

801
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: we take a look at so that it doesn't just

802
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: go to somebody's email box never to be seen again.

803
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: We actually do read them, and so we're always in

804
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: the market for black women podcasters. Who feel like they

805
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 1: have something to say, feel like they can approach things,

806
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: you know, from a nuanced perspective that they feel like

807
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: we'll really add something to the conversation that surrounds being

808
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 1: a black woman in America. So yes, so they can certainly,

809
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: you know, find me there as well. And most importantly,

810
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: go buy this book because I've tried to make a

811
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,439
Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller list. I'm not what you gonna

812
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: hold you up right, So you could get this book

813
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: wherever books are sold pre ordered, get it at the

814
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: bars and Noble and the airport. I don't care. Just

815
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: go by this book and to borrow something that I

816
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: saw Oprah does. When she buys a book, she buys

817
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: it for herself and for Gail so they could discuss it.

818
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: So do that by for yourself and a friend so

819
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: you can talk about it. Great break tips there, and

820
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing with us today, Jamail.

821
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I'm so

822
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: glad Jamil was able to share with us today. To

823
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: learn more about her and to grab your copy of Upheal,

824
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot

825
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: Com slash Session to eight one and don't forget to

826
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: text two of your girls and tell them to check

827
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: out the episode right now. If you're looking for a

828
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at

829
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if

830
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: you want to continue digging into this topic or just

831
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: be in community with other sisters, come on over and

832
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 1: join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner

833
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: of the Internet designed just for black women. You can

834
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: join us at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com.

835
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frida Lucas and Alice Ellis

836
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: and editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank you

837
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: all so much for joining me a in this week.

838
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you

839
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,959
Speaker 1: all real soon. Take it care