1 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't 2 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: a liability. It's a real guest. 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know. 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: If you can die before you die, then you can 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 2: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 2: I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: do because there was no internet. I don't know, man, 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 2: I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become 13 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys, 15 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: and welcome to a new episode of You Need Therapy podcast. 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: My name is Kat. I am the host, and if 17 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: you are new or newer, I'd like to reiterate a reminder. 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: Although this podcast is hosted by a therapist, and today 19 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: you have two therapists, this does not serve as a 20 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: replacement or substitute for any actual mental health services. However, 21 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: we always hope that it can help you in some way. 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: And like I said, we have two therapists here today, 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: me which some of you if you've listened before, No, 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm Kat and Josie. 25 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 2: I'm back that fringe. Wait, you always have to start 26 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 2: with like a weird intro. Yeah, next time, all come 27 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: up with something weird too. 28 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: Wasn't it that you said, welcome to me, guy? 29 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 2: Welcome the first time? Yeah? 30 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: You know, yesterday I was on the porch and there's 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: this guy walking by. And this guy was walking by 32 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: and stopped to talk to me, and when he left, 33 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: I said, I hope you have a good day, and 34 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: his response was y'all have a good day too. And 35 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: I was like, like it was one of those things. 36 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: I think he noticed it wells he was walking away, 37 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: he was like, oh ah, there's only one of her. 38 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: Or honestly, maybe he thought he was talking to multiple people. 39 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. Anyway, Josie has been on here multiple times. 40 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: She works at Three Courts Therapy and she also works 41 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: with clients with eating disorders and people who struggle with 42 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: disordered eating. So I wanted to bring her on because 43 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: she said something this week that I wanted her to 44 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: share with you guys and backstory on this. I did 45 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: an episode a couple of weeks ago on understanding eating disorders, 46 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: and it came to me after I did a training 47 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: at a treatment center in the area on eating disorders 48 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: and they one of the things they asked me to 49 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: talk about was what recovery looked like. And I struggled 50 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: with that. I struggled with knowing how to describe that, 51 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: and a part of me was questioning, why don't I 52 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: even know how to describe this? And the reason that 53 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: it was so difficult? I think, and what I've come 54 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: to know is that it's difficult because it's different for everybody, 55 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: and the recovery process looks different for everybody, and that 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: brings a lot of feelings. It brings a lot of frustration, anger, 57 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: pain to the process of recovery. And I think it's 58 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: important to acknowledge that so we don't become resetful or 59 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: we don't give up. And I think you had said 60 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: when I walked into your office something about, like people 61 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: don't realize how hard the recovery process is. Like people 62 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: don't talk about how hard it is. They just like 63 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: they talk about it, or they talk about eating disorders, 64 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: but you don't hear as many people talking about the 65 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: process itself and what it looks like and what to expect. 66 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: And I think part of that's because we don't have 67 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: an answer, right, Yeah, there is a clear, clear answer. 68 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: And then part of it is because of what you shared. 69 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: So I'm going to have you read and tell us 70 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: about what you're going to read. Yeah. 71 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: So I'm reading a book called Eating in the Light 72 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: of the Moon by Anita Johnston. She has her PhD. 73 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: And Kat just started reading it too recently. 74 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: I did, but I have gone through one chapter and 75 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: I've taken a pause. I can't really say I'm reading 76 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: it okay because it's been a wait. 77 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: I started it in January and just finish the shit. 78 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: So I'm in the process of reading it too. 79 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 2: Because I do prefer Netflix over reading a book about 80 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: union disorders when I get off work. Yea, so imagine 81 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 2: it in Bridgerton are a little too tempting. But I 82 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: finished it, and here we are. I really liked the 83 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: end of the book, this chapter on recovery, so it's 84 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: worth getting to the end. Yes, No, honestly, a lot 85 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: of things about it are really worth it. And I've 86 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: read a lot of Every time I read a passage 87 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: out of this to a client, I look up and 88 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: they're in tears because it's so moving. It is a 89 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 2: really good book. It just feels like a slower read 90 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: for me personally, But I really really liked it. Actually, 91 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: bridget our new therapists recommended. 92 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: It to me. 93 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 2: So here's the passage about recovery that I really liked. 94 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: I'm just going to read it to you all. It says, 95 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: when someone continues along the path of recovery, they might 96 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 2: become discouraged at the pace that they must travel. They 97 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: need to remember that much of what they have accomplished 98 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 2: has been in the emotional and mental realms and has 99 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: not yet manifested in the physical world, but in. 100 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: Time it will. 101 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 2: Imagine walking frequently down a street where a building is 102 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: being constructed. Day after day for many months, you pass 103 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: by what seems to be an empty lot, and then 104 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 2: one day rather suddenly, up goes some scaffolding, and before 105 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 2: you know, a huge building appears. It seems as though 106 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 2: it went up overnight. That is not unlike the recovery 107 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 2: process from disordered eating. For a long time, it may 108 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 2: seem as though nothing is happening, that no progress is 109 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 2: being made, but in actuality much is happening. It is 110 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: just that it's been taking place in the realm of 111 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: the invisible. As with the building, much time needs to 112 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: go into preparation, into planning and laying the foundation that 113 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: can fully support a new structure, a structure that can 114 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 2: last over time. Once you have laid the foundation by 115 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 2: understanding the causes of your disordered eating and have developed 116 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: the skills you need to face the stresses that life 117 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: can bring a new way of relating to food surely 118 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: will follow. So I really like that, and I love 119 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 2: the metaphor, especially living in Nashville. You like, walk down 120 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: the street and there's a new building up every two seconds, 121 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: I swear, But you're walking by and you don't, like, 122 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 2: nothing's there, and then all of a sudden, you have 123 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: a massive building in front of you. And I feel 124 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: like it's similar to Recovery Do, where clients can feel 125 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 2: really frustrated that they don't see this like huge building 126 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: yet because we're just laying the foundation and we're just 127 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: working on that structure and making this like really tiny changes. 128 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: But then like one day you look up and we're here, 129 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: and we made it, and we've made huge progress. It's 130 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: just hard to like, it's hard to see it, I guess, 131 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: is what I'm saying. 132 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: I'm also thinking about that process of you know, building 133 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: a house. That is such a good metaphor. And I 134 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: love using metaphors in the therapeutic process because it allows 135 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: us to look outside of ourselves and they're helpful. 136 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: Okay, so you would love this book because all about 137 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: metaphor full oft I kind of book. 138 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: The book is, I'm sure wonderful. It's not the same 139 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: as like a psychological thriller. 140 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: Where you just get you know what I mean, it's 141 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: just hard to different kind of resigns all day and 142 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: then doing more quote words. 143 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no judgment and the pace it takes for 144 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: you to read that book. Thank you. But I was 145 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: thinking as you were speaking, when you're building something like 146 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: a house, right, yeah, you might get really excited and 147 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: you want to just get to the good part. But 148 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: if you don't do all of the planning, what happens, 149 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: Like if you don't make the if you don't have 150 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: the architect drop the plans, if you don't pick out 151 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: what it is, what colors you want in this and 152 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: that then what happens to the building. 153 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm also having a thought of like, if 154 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: you don't do it slowly and in the right way, 155 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 2: then it's going to crumble, right, Like you have to right, 156 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: she's making a face like ooh good thought like if 157 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: you don't lay all this foundation with your eating disorder 158 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: in recovery, then it might crumble, Like we need to 159 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: have the stronger foundation and take the time to build that. 160 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: You know. 161 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: It's also making me think about when we make the 162 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: choices for the house. Right. I've never built a house, 163 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: so I don't really have good examples, but like the 164 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: type of materials, like the quality of the materials. I'm 165 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: somebody who I'm always looking for a deal, so I'm like, oh, 166 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: I'll take that it's cheap. I used to watch a 167 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: lot of the DIY home renovation videos, of course you did, 168 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: any and I would show them to my dad, who 169 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: builds houses, he's a homebuilder, and I'd be like, Dad, 170 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: i can redo the kitchen for two hundred dollars, and 171 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: I can buy these stickers instead of using the tile, 172 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: and for the flooring, I'll paint it instead of tiling it. 173 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: And of course my dad has a billion reasons why 174 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: that's wrong. 175 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: I like nice things that would help, so that's not 176 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 2: the reason he would say that. 177 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: But he's like, Okay, you can paint your tile, but 178 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: guess what, you're gonna have to repaint that tile in 179 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: a month because you're gonna walk up on it and 180 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: it's gonna go away. Or you can use those stickers 181 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: one hundred percent if you want that, but they're going 182 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: to start to peel off eventually, and you don't have 183 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: to use the most expensive product. But there is value 184 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: in choosing products that are more quality than the easiest 185 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: to access sometimes and the quickest. Right. I will tell 186 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: you something, I have grouted a backslash before and I 187 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: never want to do it again, So a sticker sounds 188 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: really appealing. But if I don't want to have to 189 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: ever do it again, then I probably should go with 190 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: the actual thing, unless you just want to go through 191 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: the recovery process every three months, you know. I mean, 192 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: there's so many places we could go to with that book, 193 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: but I just wanted to bring that on here and 194 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: create a discussion around it because I have so much 195 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: empathy for both the therapists and the client and those 196 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: situations and I think part of that is the client 197 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: doesn't come to you the first day of their eating disorder. 198 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: No, right, they come to us in all very different stages. Right, 199 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: eating disorder, which is another piece of recovery, doesn't look 200 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: the same because it depends on where you are. I'm 201 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: coming to you probably feeling like I've been locked in 202 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: this cage for a very long time and I'm ready, 203 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 2: Like I'm ready to just have the house, but i 204 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 2: still have to do the foundation part, yeap. And sometimes 205 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 2: I come to you and I'm not ready. So we 206 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: were talking about earlier the stages of change. Yeah, I'm 207 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: setting for my LCSW, so this is a good one. 208 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 2: But the stages of change you're ready, can't name them, okay, 209 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: pre contemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance. 210 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: Maintenance, maintenance. 211 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: There we go. 212 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: It's a hard word. A lot of people might not 213 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: be familiar with. That is I don't think I like 214 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: learned that in grad school. I feel like I learned that. 215 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 2: Oh I did, definitely maybe I did. 216 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: But I'm just giving my internship credit. I remember learning 217 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: that and putting it to action when I was actually 218 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: like working with clients in like the recovery process. But 219 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: I guess that is with anything that we're wanting to 220 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: shift in our lives. But I bring that up because 221 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: we assume, well I don't know who we is, but 222 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: people assume, and sometimes I the client, am assuming if 223 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: I go to therapy, I'm in a certain phase or stage, right, Yeah, 224 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: So if I'm coming to therapy, I must be in. 225 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 2: Preparation, contemplation, preparation, yeah, I ad action, Yeah, when in 226 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 2: reality I might still be pre contemplative. 227 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you're in therapy, you're probably 228 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: at least contemplative. But that makes a difference. 229 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 2: Have you read the book Keys to Recovery for an 230 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: Eating Disorder? It's a workbook. 231 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: No, it's great, and it's. 232 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 2: On my office. I'll show it to you. But one 233 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,959 Speaker 2: of the workbook pages was actually going through the stages. Oh, 234 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: and she struggled the most with contemplative. Actually, I've been 235 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: seeing her for a while now, but she was like 236 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 2: this one, I'm just I like, we need to do 237 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: this together. She sat there and did it together. But 238 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 2: someone else that may be an easy stage. 239 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 1: I honestly see that as I get that being hard 240 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: because there can be a part of me that really 241 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: wants to shift, and then there's a part of me 242 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: that doesn't, maybe because I'm scared, or because I have feelings, 243 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: or because other people are telling me not to or whatever. 244 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: So I get that being a really hard. And so 245 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: you might be with a client in that contemplative stage 246 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: for a while, and a client might think they're in action, 247 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: but they're in contemplative yeah, And so that gets frustrating, 248 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: like can't we move to the building process now? 249 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 2: And frustrating for a therapist like, oh, I'm ready to 250 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: be in the action, yeah, but like we were sitting 251 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 2: in the contemplation, like what do I need to be 252 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: doing differently for us to get out of here? 253 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: Well, when we were talking earlier too about from the 254 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: client side into the therapist's side, the differences in what 255 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: makes this work challenging as a therapist, I know personally 256 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: one of the things that can be so hard about 257 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: working with eating disorders. And honestly, as we're recording this, 258 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, should we just make this like what's hard 259 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: in general about therapy, But where we are speaking to 260 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: eating disorers is that I sometimes can take things personally. 261 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: I forget to leave my own ego out of the 262 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: room sometimes and I get bummed out and I start 263 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: blaming myself for things versus no, this, the nature of 264 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: this work is hard, the nature of this work is 265 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: non linear, versus well, maybe I pushed her too hard, 266 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: maybe maybe I wasn't listening correctly, or maybe I'm not 267 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: offering enough. I mean, you know, we say all the things. 268 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: Therapists sometimes have their own feelings just sometimes like I 269 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: want my client to be in the stage, and sometimes 270 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: I'm like, am I not meeting them where they're at? 271 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: And that's frustrating because I can see the part of 272 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: you that wants to change, and I want to like 273 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: take that part and extract it and only work with 274 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: that part sometimes, and I think the client sometimes wants 275 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah. 276 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: And I also think, while we're talking about recovery, motivation 277 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 2: is so hard, and sometimes I can feel frustrated as 278 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 2: a therapist of like when a client isn't feeling motivated, 279 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: but I'm feeling motivated. 280 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm so motivated. So they help you. Oh that's 281 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: so true. And we can't force people to be There's 282 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,599 Speaker 1: not like a food like have this and you'll be 283 00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: motivated like a potion. And I wonder what like what 284 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: do you do with that? Like, if a client's just 285 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: not motivated for change, you tell. 286 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 2: Me, I don't know. I don't know. It depends on 287 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 2: the client, but it's something I feel stuck with sometimes. 288 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: I think that one of the things that is the 289 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: most helpful in those situations is naming it that. Like, 290 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I'm getting the sense that there's a 291 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: big part of you in here that doesn't necessarily want this, 292 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: And I'm telling myself a story that there's a part 293 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: of you that does want this because you're here, But 294 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: I want to talk about this part of you that 295 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: doesn't want this, to see if that needs some attention, 296 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: and then see where that goes. I have a lot 297 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: of empathy and compassion for this is me talking right 298 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: now not to like a client for the lack of motivation, 299 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: because I think that speaks to another reason why it's 300 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: so hard. A lot of the stuff you're saying to clients, 301 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: and I'm saying to clients in therapy, they're hearing the 302 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: opposite when they leave. Yeah, like the messages right, So 303 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: we're sitting in a space where we get to decide 304 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: what's important to us. We get to listen to our 305 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: bodies and let it tell us what we need and 306 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: let us kind of have our own frame of thought. 307 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: And then we go into the world and the world 308 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: is set up to convince us that we need X, Y, 309 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: and Z, And that's on social media, that's in our 310 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: family system. Like everywhere we go, there's an agenda trying 311 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: to remove power from us, and then you come to 312 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: therapy and we're trying to like shove it back in 313 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: their faces, and that can be disorienting. Everywhere we go 314 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: there's an agenda trying to remove power from us, and 315 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: then you come to therapy and we're trying to like 316 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: shove it back in their faces, and that can be disorienting. 317 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: Very especially like you can try to prepare your client 318 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: for anything, but you can't. Yeah, it makes me think 319 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: of a recent story with a client where we were 320 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 2: preparing for her to go see her primary care physician, 321 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 2: which happens a lot when you see clients with the 322 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: eating disorders, of what is this going to look like? 323 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: What do we need for ourselves? What can we say, 324 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: what do we feel comfortable saying? And we prepared for 325 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: her to say, I do not want to be weighed, 326 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: but if you need to weigh me for my physical health. 327 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 2: I want it to be a blind way in, meaning 328 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: I do not want to see it, like I'm gonna 329 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: turn around, you write it down, do not say the 330 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 2: way to me. 331 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: So she did. 332 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: It went really well, like in the front part, you know, 333 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: and that probably was hard. Oh my god, this like 334 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 2: I'm saying it, like, oh, it's so easy. It's not 335 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: even I'm a therapist who works the eating disorders, and 336 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: I get nervous to ask that it is hard. It's intimidating. 337 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: Sometimes I chicken out and don't say it. Sometimes I do. 338 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: It depends on how I'm feeling that day. But she 339 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: went back to the room and I don't remember specifically, 340 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: like who walked in, but I know I don't think 341 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: it was the person that took it, but whoever walked 342 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,359 Speaker 2: in walked in and was like, oh so I see 343 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: that you way blah blah blah, and she was like, wait, 344 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 2: what all that work? 345 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: Yes? 346 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: All, Like I put in so much preparation for this, 347 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 2: and I was so ready and I felt really confident. 348 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 2: And the moment this doctor walks in here, they give 349 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: me my weight and this is the first time I've 350 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: heard my weight since before I went to treatment. Oh 351 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: my gosh, think about how much damage that can do 352 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: to a person. But again going back to like we 353 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 2: can prepare all we want in therapy, but you don't 354 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: know what's coming not you in the real world. 355 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: Well, the world doesn't care about your recovery. Yeah, facts period, 356 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: And that's hard. And that even speaks to another part 357 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: of this where she still did a really hard thing, 358 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: that still was work towards recovery, which is part of 359 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: recovery a lot of times isn't even about food. It's 360 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: about asking for what we need. It's about standing up 361 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: for sales. It's about being able to sit in discomfort. 362 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: It's about all that stuff. And it sounds like she 363 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: did that. She asked for what she needed. Now the 364 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: hard thing is we don't always get that right, or 365 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: we get it sometimes and not others, Like she got 366 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: it from the person that waiter and then this other person. 367 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: I don't know if they just didn't know what was 368 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: going on, which is a whole issue with like medical World, 369 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: which another podcast. But I think in the our work 370 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: that we can do where it's frustrating because I want 371 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: to get angry, right, I want to be like your 372 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: doctor's office suck. 373 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 2: I want to call them off on that. I want 374 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 2: to take their license. 375 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: Away, right, And that's I think that can be helpful 376 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: because the client can feel cared for maybe like where 377 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: she didn't feel cared for her from that doctor or whoever. 378 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: And at the same time, it takes away from her 379 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: being able to recognize the progress she made. Yeah, like, yeah, 380 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: that thing didn't work perfectly, but you still did that. 381 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: And maybe she heard her weaight and that was really hard. 382 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: Maybe she used to skill after that and was able 383 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: to sit in that discomfort versus revert back to a 384 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: behavior maybe I didn't happen. I don't know. But if 385 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: we can step out of our own anger, we can 386 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: also help them recognize that while this was not ideal 387 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,479 Speaker 1: and this makes stuff harder, it doesn't mean that you 388 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: didn't still do something you should be proud of. 389 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like that's a good point. 390 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: Also, speaking to what makes recovery so hard is because 391 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't look black and white, Like I'm trying to 392 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: give an example of like what actually is black and white? 393 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: Like I don't know if I am training for well, actually, 394 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm struggling thinking about something because I've 395 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: learned that nothing's. 396 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: Way is black and white. Is like medical, I can 397 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: be tested for diabetes. 398 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. 399 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: I feel like in the mental health field nothing is 400 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,239 Speaker 2: black and white. But in the medical field, it is 401 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: more like we can test for these things. Yeah, like 402 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: you have cancer, you don't have cancer. 403 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: You have diabetes, you don't have diabetes. You have this, 404 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: you don't have this. 405 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 2: Mental health field, it's not it's like you. I was 406 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 2: even talking to a client about this. Day of the 407 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: DSM is like it is black. Yeah, it's wild, it's 408 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: wild out there. 409 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: Well, if you look at I talked about this, I've 410 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,239 Speaker 1: actually I don't know if I went into this on 411 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: the episode I Don't Eating Disorders a couple weeks ago. 412 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: If you look at all the feeding and eating disorder diagnoses, 413 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: they have specific ones, but even their criteria is up 414 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: to interpretation, like a lot of it is. I think 415 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: it used to be way more directive, but because we've 416 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: realized that we actually leave a lot of people out 417 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: that are struggling with these disorders by making it so specific, 418 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: they've widened the view and so the criteria is not specific. 419 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: And then there are actual diagnoses that are for people 420 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: that don't even fit the non specific criteria, so that's 421 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: difficult to look at. You're like do I have this? 422 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: Do I not have this? Does everybody have this? And 423 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: that can be hard. Yeah, I'm going back to that 424 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: motivation part, like how to stay motivated when recovery is 425 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: just like a one track mind, Like I don't know 426 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: if we talked about it on our owner did you 427 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: talk about the snacks? Did we ever talk about that? No? 428 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: So share that, share that example. 429 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: So I know a lot of eating disorder clients and 430 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 2: it's just like a lot of humans in general, we 431 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 2: kind of like tend to think in black and white. 432 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: All are nothing thinking. 433 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: I did good or I did bad? 434 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 2: Yes, and a good example as a client that their 435 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: dietitian will give them homework of like three snacks this week. 436 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: I don't care where you put it in your day, 437 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: but I want three snacks in addition to your meals. Right, 438 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: And a client comes to me and says like, oh, 439 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 2: like I had this homework of eating three snacks and 440 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 2: I only ate ones, like I didn't reach my goals 441 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 2: and I don't feel good about this week. I didn't 442 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: do anything. Da da da da da da, And I'm 443 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: on the other side of like, oh my god, but 444 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: you ate a snack, Like you didn't do that last week, 445 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: but you ate a snack Like that's awesome. I'm like 446 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: a little cheer litter over here, like pomped about it 447 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 2: because I see, like we made progress. That's so cool. 448 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 2: But from someone especially like with an eun disorder, you 449 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: have the perfectionism tendencies of them being like, but I 450 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 2: didn't meet the goal. 451 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: But we wanted the house to be built, and we're like, yes, 452 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: but you picked out the faucets you wanted. Yeah. I 453 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of shame in that, like the 454 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: perfection is and we're so much shame in not being 455 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: able to like get it right. And what I hope 456 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: a lot of you guys hear from, whether you're in 457 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: therapy or you hear from us, is it's not about 458 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: getting it right. It's about getting closer to treating yourself well. 459 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: It's about making the best decision you can for yourself 460 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: each moment. We have to continue, Like recovery is a 461 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: continual thing. I have to continue to choose it every 462 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: single day. Every single time I eat a snack, I'm 463 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm doing something right, Like I'm and each one of 464 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: those things should be celebrated, whether it feels like you've 465 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: been doing it for years now or you it was 466 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: your first time. 467 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: I love looking at disordered eating like body image like 468 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: and counts, and like seeing videos of people in recovery 469 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 2: being like I et the pizza today, Like I would 470 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 2: not have done this a year ago. It like feels 471 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: so good to like celebrate it may look like a 472 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: small one of eight pizza, but it's actually cute can 473 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 2: be a really big. 474 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: One, which you saying that is a reminder to the 475 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: people that have loved one struggling with this stuff. Yeah 476 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: is Yeah, when somebody eats a piece of pizza, sometimes 477 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 1: that's a really big deal. And sometimes they don't want 478 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: any attention to that. I will say it depends on 479 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: the post and I err on the side of the caution, 480 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: like it's better not to talk about food during meal 481 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: times and bring attention to that while somebody's doing it. 482 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: But if you are noticing things like that, like this 483 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: person is engaging and I want to say the word healthy, 484 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: but that word is you know, convoluted to use. Is 485 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: engaging in more functional, helpful, adaptive behaviors, you might want 486 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: to send them some encouragement. And it might not be hey, 487 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: I heard you ate pizza. Good job, because that might 488 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: be too much for somebody, but it can be hey, 489 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: I've noticed that you've been really present and you've been working. 490 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: I've seen you work really hard, and I want you 491 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: to know that that's not going unnoticed. 492 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 2: And also, like the person or the client being in recovery, 493 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: I want to encourage you to reach out to a 494 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,959 Speaker 2: friend and be like, Hey, I haven't eat pizza a year. 495 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,479 Speaker 1: Can you go with me? Yeah? 496 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: This is really scary to go to this pizza place. 497 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: I feel like pizza is like a pretty common example, 498 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 2: but like, can you come with me and be at 499 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 2: my support? 500 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: And you might have to do that a lot. Oh yeah, 501 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: and you might have to do that after you feel 502 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: like I'm in action or I'm in like maintenance, I 503 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: shouldn't have to do anymore. Well. Part of maintenances is 504 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: when you start to have those thoughts and feelings come up, 505 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: you go back and you pull on those old tools 506 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: that you used to use in emergencies. And that's I 507 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,959 Speaker 1: think confusing too. When we look at like what does 508 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: recovery look like? It looks like sometimes we need extra 509 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: help for sure, And just because I've gotten through this week, 510 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that like next week. I mean, stuff 511 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: happens all the time. Stressors pop up, and it's easy 512 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: to go back to old things we know, and so 513 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: part of being in recovery is continuing to ask for 514 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: that help. And the last thing I want to say 515 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: before we kind of wrap this up in what makes 516 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: this so difficult is that because we don't have one 517 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: framework of what it looks like and what the roadmap 518 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: should be, and it's not something I don't think we 519 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: actually can create that even if we wanted to, because 520 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: then we would there would be no nuance in it, 521 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: and we wouldn't be able to look at people as individuals. 522 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: Because that is true. We also struggle with identifying both 523 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: if I am engaging in the behaviors that I if 524 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: I am moving towards recovery. And it also makes it 525 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: difficult not to, you know, get confused with that eating 526 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: disort of brain who's saying, well, so and so is 527 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: doing all of this stuff, so you could probably do 528 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: that too, And I don't know if I said that, 529 00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: you're look at me like I said that really can 530 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,719 Speaker 1: confusingly Yeah, what I'm saying is comparison is a thing, 531 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: and because there is not one way to recover. Yes, 532 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: Like when we look at recovery from substances, there's one 533 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: way to be sober, and it's you don't drink, right, 534 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: unless unless you're being sober from something else. But like 535 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: that's what you do, right, you don't drink. It's not 536 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: like I only drink on Tuesdays and then now you're 537 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: in recovery. Well, I don't know, maybe depending on your 538 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: certain circumstances. I've learned to never say never about things. 539 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: But like that's not what we look at when we 540 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: will get sobriety and recovery with substances, but in eating disorders, 541 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: everybody is different. 542 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. There's not a clear path forward. 543 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, we look at what is possible for this person 544 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: with the skills that they are able to develop and 545 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 1: the resource that that they have, What is available for 546 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: this person and what makes sense for their life, and 547 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: then we have to look at somebody over here, and 548 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: that just makes it confusing on all fronts. For the therapist, 549 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: it makes it confusing for the client, makes it confusing 550 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: because I know one thing that I like to do, 551 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: and I've learned is not so helpful. I like to 552 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: sometimes check how I'm doing by the people around me, right, 553 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: like if I'm on track, And for most people that backfires, 554 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: right if you're like in. 555 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 2: Relationships, it's really easy to go and like compare your 556 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 2: relationship to other relationships, but like, it never is. 557 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: It's never helpful, right, And so I won't get into this, 558 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: but that's what gets me frustrated when you see people 559 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: on the interwebs selling you these like formulas and here's 560 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: my five step guide to how to get the guy, 561 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: or my ten step process to recover from your eating disorder, 562 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: or my seven whatever to get the relationship you've always wanted. 563 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: I'm like, that can't be possible, because different people need 564 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: different things at different times. 565 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 2: Yes, and also another reason to see a therapist or 566 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 2: a dietician and like fact check these things, because oh 567 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 2: my gosh, the amount of times, well I've been doing 568 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 2: it recently, I've gone to a dietitian's office like in 569 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: our building and been like, hey, TikTok told me this 570 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: is it true. I did this to jan yesterday and 571 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,239 Speaker 2: she was like, no, don't listen to that. Thank you 572 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 2: for coming to us TikTok is us sometimes well a 573 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: lot of time. 574 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: Yes, And it sounds convincing. And what I love that 575 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: you just named too is that like you didn't have 576 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: the answer, and so you wouldn't ask somebody who did. 577 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's so helpful as like a therapist. 578 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: Even so when our clients bring us stuff. Sometimes people 579 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: bring me things and I'm like, honestly, I don't know 580 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: if that's true. I want to say it's not, but 581 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. So let's go to somebody who can 582 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: know versus just like pushing it away or accepting it 583 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: as truth. Like, we have to be investigative and we 584 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: have to invite in other sources into those spaces. So 585 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: I liked that you said that because I think a 586 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: lot of people will like pretend that they know. Oh 587 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: my gosh. 588 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 2: I feel like I've gotten very good at being like, well, 589 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: this is actually not my lane since your dietitians, or 590 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 2: let's just go ask some more questions because I don't know, 591 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 2: that's not my mm mmm. 592 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: I honestly think that helps people build trust in their therapists. 593 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: But that's just my opinion. Anyway, I'm gonna kind of 594 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: wrap this up because we could go on for a 595 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: while talking about this, but I do want to highlight 596 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: something that I don't think we talked about that Josie 597 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 1: said earlier. I don't think we said on here. I 598 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: asked her, when you think about the recovery process, what 599 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: feelings come up? And I want you to share what 600 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: you said. 601 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: My first thoughts were frustration, because number one, I feel 602 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 2: so much for frustration from clients and for myself with 603 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: eating disorders and in recovery specifically. And then the other 604 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 2: word that came up as joy, is like, it's so awesome, cool, 605 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: amazing to be able to see the joy that clients 606 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 2: feel when they do make the progress and the leaps forward. 607 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 2: So like frustration and joy like the two words that 608 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: come up from you in recovery. 609 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wanted to kind of wrap up with 610 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: because I don't know, maybe it's just my own brain working, 611 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: but I feel like a lot of when we talk 612 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: about the process and the reality of it, it can 613 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: feel like want wont like I can like it's hard, period, 614 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: and I think adding in the fact it's hard, and 615 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: also there are so many moments that again both clients 616 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: and therapists gets to see that are worth all of 617 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: the hard parts, and it's one of those confusing both 618 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: like this process is both. So I hope you guys 619 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: can hear that. And I want to encourage anybody. If 620 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: you have any questions or thoughts, feedback, anything for myself 621 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: or jos He or anybody really who's been on here before, 622 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: you can send that to me Catherinett. You need therapy 623 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: podcast dot com, or if you just have comments, if 624 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: you have stories of your recovery, if you have metaphors 625 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: that you've used, whether you're a therapist or a client, 626 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: maybe things that you've heard. 627 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 2: If you like metaphors, read this book. 628 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: Eating in the Light of the Moon. Don't let the 629 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: time it has taken Josie and I to read it 630 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: to turn you from soaking in the good stuff that's 631 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: in there. 632 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 2: Okay, we also are like I'm also reading OCD book, 633 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: Like is that I. 634 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: Read like seven books? I want you kind of have 635 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: to to keep up with your clients. Yeah, so I 636 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: hope this is helpful. If you have questions, send them. 637 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: You can follow me Cat dot Defoda on Instagram, and 638 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: you need therapy podcast and you can follow three Chords 639 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: Therapy at Three Chords Therapy also shout out. I don't 640 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: think I've said this before. We've added another therapist. Her 641 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: name is Bridget. She's wonderful. If you live in Tennessee, 642 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: you can work with us. Bridget. 643 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 2: It's actually the one that recommended me this book. 644 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, she loves it, and she actually brings us a 645 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: new specialty. She works with does a lot of maternal 646 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: mental health, so works with women in all stages of 647 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: the pregnancy and fertility process, so some part of them. Yeah, 648 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: something that. 649 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 2: Did her care chords. 650 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's going to do it. And I hope 651 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: you guys have the day you need to have. I 652 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: will be back on Wednesday before couch Times