1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week the cold rush. 2 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 2: There's plenty of mistakes that happen, and all that products 3 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 2: full of little small decisions. If you're bat like ninety percent, 4 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,159 Speaker 2: you're doing great. So I'd say ninety percent of what 5 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 2: comes over here is perfectly good. And then there's always 6 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 2: the second wave of our inspections of them. 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 1: That's a guy inside of fridge, a really big fridge. 8 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: His name is Matthew Derico, and he's giving a tour 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: of a cold storage facility in the bikes. Matthew's family 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: has been in this business for generations. 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: We're dealing with a perishable product. It's grown under interesting 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: conditions that are all different. 13 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: A century ago, they were responsible for the first transcontinental 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: shipment of bruccoli from California to New York on a 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: refrigerated train. Those were the earliest days of the cold chain. Now, 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: those of us in developed countries take it for granted. 17 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: Today three quarters of everything on the average American plate 18 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: is processed, packaged, shipped, stored, or sold cold. You know 19 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: cold storage facilities exist, but I bet you don't know 20 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: just how big these spaces have become. The US alone 21 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: boasts around five point five billion cubic feet of refrigerated space. 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: That's like one hundred and fifty Empire State building's worth 23 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: of freezers, and developing countries are starting to catch up. 24 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: Between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty two, the whole world's 25 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: chilled and frozen warehouse space increased by twenty percent at 26 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: a time when ice caps are melting faster than ever. 27 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: The number of walk in refrigerators is also expanding. This 28 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: coal rush has huge implications for the planet. It's something 29 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: journalist Nicola Twilly has thought a lot about. She's explored 30 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: quite a few giant freezers, like the one Matthew works in. 31 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 1: That's because she's the author of a new book about 32 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: how refrigeration has shaped our food, ourselves, and our planet. 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: It's called Frostbite, and it's a really fun read full 34 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: of crazy trivia, like the fact that the Irish independence 35 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: movement might have refrigerated beef from the US to thank 36 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: for its success. Now, refrigeration is considered a climate solution. 37 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: More than thirty percent of all food produced on farms 38 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: in poor nations never makes it to a store, and 39 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: a coal chain can help reduce that food waste. But 40 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: on the flip side, it turns out that having access 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: to refrigeration can also lead to food waste. Americans waste 42 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: more than thirty percent of their food in their homes 43 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: because they hold so much in the fridge. That's why 44 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: I was excit I did to talk to Nicola because 45 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: the humble fridge is going to play a big part 46 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: in our planet's future. Nicola, Welcome to the show. 47 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 48 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: Now, let's start at the beginning with the invention of refrigeration. 49 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: It's one of those modern miracles that few people think 50 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: about and most people take for granted. But the route 51 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: to inventing the fridge was quite long. Can you take 52 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: us back in time and talk us through how it happened. 53 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, if you think about it, humans have had control 54 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: of fire since before we were modern humans, and yet 55 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 3: we haven't been able to produce cold at will until 56 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 3: maybe one hundred and fifty years ago, Max. So it's 57 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 3: sort of an incredibly recent invention. And it's not that 58 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: early humans had no idea that cold would preserve food, 59 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 3: because they noticed that right away. It's just that there 60 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 3: wasn't a sense of how to control it or even 61 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: what cold was. It was actually all of the great 62 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 3: minds of scientific history, Galileo, you know, Francis Bacon, Robert Boyle, 63 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 3: Leonardo da Vinci. They all kind of wrestled with what 64 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 3: is cold? And there was theories that, oh, it's maybe 65 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 3: you know, these frigorific atoms, or maybe it's sort of 66 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 3: a force that gets distributed from the north pole or 67 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 3: rises up from the ground down from the air. No 68 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 3: one had any idea. It was actually immensely frustrating for people. 69 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 3: Francis Bacon died while he was trying to figure it 70 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 3: out from a chill caused by trying to stuff a 71 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 3: chicken with ice. So it really took a long time 72 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 3: to work it out. And actually even when the first 73 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 3: person to sort of create cold artificially, Scottish doctor named 74 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 3: William Cullen, he sort of did it as a party 75 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 3: trick because it wasn't something you could do at scale. 76 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 3: It wasn't seen as something that would work to refrigerate 77 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 3: our whole food system, let alone you know the way 78 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 3: we use air conditioning now, you know our factories, houses, 79 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 3: data centers. He just managed to evaporate some ether under 80 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 3: pressure and freeze a flask of water, and no one 81 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,239 Speaker 3: looked at that and saw the potential for another seventy 82 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 3: five years. And the first refrigerating machines were just enormous 83 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 3: and blew up all the time and were incredibly dangerous. 84 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: All of the early pioneers just constantly losing eyebrows and 85 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 3: you know, fingers and all the rest of it. So 86 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 3: it took a very long time. You know. The first 87 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: commercial machine was the eighteen fifties. It doesn't become domesticated 88 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 3: something that we can actually have in our homes until 89 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 3: the nineteen twenties. So that's one hundred years ago. It's 90 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 3: really recent. 91 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: And it was shocking to know that you just went 92 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: and built a refrigerator for yourself for this book. Is 93 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: it really that simple? 94 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 3: Well, so, I was an embarrassingly long way through the 95 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 3: writing of this book when I realized I too, really 96 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: didn't understand how to make cold. I was like Galileo. 97 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 3: I had no idea, you know. I was looking at 98 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 3: how cold had reshaped what we eat and where it's grown, 99 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 3: and how it tastes, and how good it is for 100 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 3: us and the planet, but I didn't understand how we 101 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: made it. So a friend of a friend runs an 102 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: HVAC startup, and he said, well, come to my garage. 103 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 3: We can build a fridge. And I was like, you 104 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 3: can't just build a fridge, but it turns out you 105 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 3: can now. Well, to be fair, this was a bit 106 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,679 Speaker 3: more like when you make dinner from you know, jarred 107 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 3: pasta sauce and a retisserie chicken and some pre washed 108 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 3: you know, spinach leaves with something. I wasn't actually building 109 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: all the elements from scratch. So we had purchased a compressor, 110 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: we had purchased an evaporator, we had purchased the various 111 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 3: There are sort of four main components, and what we 112 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: did was join them up in such a way and 113 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 3: then charge it with refrigerant, which is the chemical that 114 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 3: evaporates under pressure to create the cooling effect. Because if 115 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 3: any of your listeners are like me and have no 116 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 3: idea what cold is, still it's just the absence of heat, 117 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 3: and so cooling is that sense of loss as you 118 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 3: remove heat. And so what you want to do, if 119 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 3: you remember from high school physics, which I completely did not, 120 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: is when a liquid evaporates into a gas that takes energy, 121 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: and you suck that energy in from the atmosphere around 122 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 3: you as heat energy, thus creating the sort of sense 123 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 3: of losses. All that heat energy is pulled away the 124 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 3: cooling and so it's a really simple system. The trick is, 125 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: of course, to create you know, you do that once, 126 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 3: That's what William Cullen did in seventeen fifty five. The 127 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 3: trick is to keep doing it and create a circuit 128 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: where it just goes round and round and round and 129 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 3: keeps evaporating. But even that is surprisingly simple once you've 130 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 3: built it. It's just something that I think is so 131 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 3: invisible to the majority of us that we never think 132 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 3: about it. 133 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and a major turning point came when this invention 134 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: was put to work at scale. And you write before 135 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: that most meat eaten in cities walked itself to market, 136 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: often over enormous distances, and of course when catalysts marching 137 00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: miles to an urban slaughterhouse, it's getting skinnier along the way. 138 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: But once the problem of moving large quantities of frozen 139 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: meat was solved, all that changed, and soon beef was 140 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: being shipped across oceans from America to England. How did 141 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 1: this transform the way we eat? 142 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: It's an astonishing transformation on so many levels. As you say, 143 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 3: I mean, the problem of getting meat and also dairy 144 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 3: into cities was really a huge one, not least of 145 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 3: which was that you then had to slaughter them in 146 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 3: the city. And so the area around Smithfield Market in 147 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 3: London or the slaughterhouses in New York was just I mean, 148 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 3: can you imagine slaughtering enough beef for a city in 149 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 3: the middle of that city in summer, say, I mean, 150 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 3: it was nauseating. There was blood, guts, foam, froth, it 151 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: was absolutely and bringing meat from places like Argentina, New 152 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 3: Zealand Australia where there was vast amount of land not 153 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 3: a lot of people, it lowered the price of meat immediately, 154 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 3: I mean by a quarter at least, and so suddenly 155 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: poor people who had not been able to have meat 156 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,359 Speaker 3: except on very special occasions could dine on meat frequently. 157 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 3: You know. Red meat consumption went through the roof. 158 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: And today we think of one of the climate solutions 159 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: as to try and eat less red meat because it 160 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: produces so much green as gases, mostly from cow's belching methane. However, 161 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: this increase in meat consumption happened partly because of the 162 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: ability to move cheap meat around, but also because signs 163 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: at the time, for some reason, at least in the West, 164 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: was telling people the only way to survive is to 165 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: have more protein, and the protein come from. 166 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 3: Meat, right, This is sort of a sad mistake in 167 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 3: the history of science. Chemistry was a relatively recent field 168 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 3: of research in the eighteen hundreds. You know, previously there 169 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 3: had been alchemists and they were trying to turn things 170 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 3: into gold and find elixirs of eternal life. So it 171 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 3: was a relatively new field and one of the things 172 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 3: that chemists were doing, we're trying to sort out what 173 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 3: it is in food that we need, and in the 174 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 3: early eighteen hundreds, some mistaken experiments led them to the 175 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 3: conclusion that actually it was only protein. Carbohydrate and fat 176 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 3: were just sort of nice to have, not necessary, and 177 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 3: no one knew about vitamins. Vitamins didn't come along until 178 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 3: the nineteen thirties, so protein was the be all and 179 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: end all, and that discovery coincided with the expansion of 180 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 3: cities to the first time that London was sort of 181 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 3: going from a million people to two million people to 182 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 3: three million people, the largest cities the world had ever seen. 183 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 3: And as we talked about getting meat into cities, is 184 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 3: really hard. So you have this sudden sort of scientific 185 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 3: realization that if we were to have, you know, strong 186 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 3: men to work in factories and make the nation great, 187 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 3: they must be fed with protein, and the fact that 188 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 3: we can't get protein to them. So it was an 189 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 3: utter panic. Of course, you know, they could have had lentils, 190 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 3: but the scientists at the time weren't looking at lentils 191 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 3: for their protein content. They were looking at beef. So 192 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: I mean, we could have had a very different world 193 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 3: if those scientists had been like, we all need to 194 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 3: eat lentils. It's all a sort of misunderstanding, but it 195 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 3: shaped our modern food system. 196 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: We recently did a whole series on the show about 197 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: the power grid, and in a way, you can call 198 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: it the world's biggest machine because everything works in sync. 199 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: And when I was reading the book, it made me 200 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: think that the cold chain is kind of similar. It's 201 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: a giant system. Yes, it's not in one place, and 202 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: it's not connected all the time, but it is connected. 203 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: So was it one of your hopes that when people 204 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: read the book they realize this standalone home appliance that 205 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: you have is actually part of a huge system. 206 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 3: Exactly, Yes, And that's why I in the chapter where 207 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: I look at the domestic refrigerator, I call it the 208 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 3: tip of the iceberg. I mean within the industry our food, 209 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 3: our perishable food supply system is called a cold chain, 210 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 3: with the idea chain that it is connected from your 211 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 3: farm to your fridge. The domestic fridge is really the 212 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: weak link because once you pick it up the supermarket, 213 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 3: then it sits in your car or in your bike 214 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 3: rack or you know, shopping bag, and isn't refrigerated on 215 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: its way home. But up until that point, say a 216 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 3: green bean within an appur or two of harvest, can 217 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: have been brought down to a certain temperature and kept 218 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: there all the way to supermarket shelves. So I ended 219 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: up seeing it as a sort of distributed winter. And 220 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 3: it's entirely connected by this network of refrigerated chipping containers 221 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 3: and ships and trucks and trains, but it isn't visible 222 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 3: as one gigantic winter. It's a series of sort of 223 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 3: pockets of cold, and this artificial winter that our food 224 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 3: spends time in moves around and it's actually enormous. But 225 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: because you never see it as a connected whole, you 226 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: don't realize. 227 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: Now, this artificial winter does sound very energy intensive. Were 228 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: you able to put a number on the amount of 229 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: emissions that are attached to refrigeration. 230 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 3: Yes, it's a difficult one to get an exact number on, 231 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 3: and of course you're not taking into accounts sort of 232 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: the expanded emissions that come from, say, being able to 233 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 3: eat more red meat because you can cool it. So 234 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 3: leaving aside those sort of knock on effects, cold storage 235 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 3: companies are currently the third highest industrial consumers of energy, 236 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 3: so the power to run cooling equipment is more than 237 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: eight percent of global electricity usage. 238 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: Right now, there's energy used, But of course there's another 239 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: warming impact to consider in refrigeration, and that's to do 240 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: with the refrigerant. The gas that moves around, is compressed, 241 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: is evaporated. In the early days, that gas was a 242 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: poisonous gas, typically ammonia or sulfur dioxide, and it caused 243 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of accidents and the industry was forced to 244 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: find an alternative, which it did and was pretty effective, 245 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: except it was chlorofluorocarbons, which turned out to not be 246 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: poisonous but created a hole in the ozone layer. So 247 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: one of the most successful and vironmental treaty comes out 248 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: of that desire to change the refrigerant one more time, 249 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: from CFCs to what became hfc's, which did not create 250 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: a hole in the hose and layer, but are super 251 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: warming gases. There are thousands of times more warming ten 252 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: for ten for CO two. Now we are at that 253 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: point where we need to eliminate hfc's as well. So 254 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: what are the choice of refrigerants that we have today 255 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: and what does innovation look like? 256 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: So, yeah, that's a great question. There are lower global 257 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 3: warming potential as they call it GWP refrigerants coming on 258 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: the market. Many refrigerated warehouses and such like are moving 259 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 3: to ammonia systems. 260 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: For example, we're going back to the poisonous gas. It's 261 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: very dangerous, except we can handle it better this time. 262 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 3: I'm assuming, well, I mean if it. I had a 263 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 3: graphic description from a guy who runs a refrigerated warehouse 264 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 3: who said, you know, when you see that white cloud, 265 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: you're seeing death. It wants your crevices. Apparently it goes 266 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 3: for your eyeballs. It's just really a nasty chemical. And 267 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 3: so one of the problems actually is that the cold 268 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 3: chain is expanding everywhere. It's expanding even in countries that 269 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 3: seem as though they already have plenty of refrigerated space, 270 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 3: such as the United States, but it is expanding fastest 271 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 3: in parts of the world that don't have a cold 272 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 3: chain currently, so sub Saharan Africa, large parts of Southeast Asia. 273 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 3: Those places are building a cold chain from scratch right now. 274 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 3: And they are also not typically equipped with a lot 275 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 3: of trained engineers who can work with these dangerous gases, 276 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 3: and a lot of the replacement refrigerants are much harder 277 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 3: to use, flammable, toxic, just difficult and require more sophisticated machinery. 278 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 3: So it's really a hard thing to replace these HCFCs 279 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 3: and HFCs with these new refrigerants in places that already 280 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 3: don't have enough engineers to make the simple non toxic 281 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 3: refrigerants work. So that's one of the huge issues. And 282 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 3: actually now there's a huge black market in hdfcs and 283 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 3: hfc's because they're cheaper, easier to use. The old equipment 284 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 3: runs on them, and so even though they're being phased 285 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: out or even in some cases banned, they're still widely 286 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 3: traded and widely used because they work and people know 287 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 3: how to use them. So that's a huge problem. But 288 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 3: to me, I thought The most interesting thing was not 289 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 3: to think about the future of refrigeration beyond just okay, 290 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 3: how do we make a better refrigerant, but can we 291 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 3: make a better way of cooling? And even beyond that, 292 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 3: can we make a better way of food preservation? Food 293 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 3: preservation is the goal here, after all. Cooling is just 294 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 3: how we do it. 295 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: And you also traveled to China as part of your reporting. Now, 296 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: I went to China last in twenty eighteen, so it's 297 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: been a while. But having traveled to the US and 298 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: the UK before I traveled to China, I was kind 299 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: of shocked by how developed the country was. Infrastructure was fantastic, 300 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: the fast trades but really fast. The system to pay 301 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: was easier, you could use apps, et cetera. But you 302 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: found that the coal chain wasn't developed enough, and that 303 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: was a little bit surprising to me. Why is that 304 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: the case. 305 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 3: Well, that's changing really really fast. So China made building 306 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 3: a coal chain a modern cold chain part of its 307 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 3: twelve five year plan. And you know, when China sets 308 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 3: out to do something, they really do it. And so 309 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 3: it took a while and it was uneven. You know 310 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 3: that the major cities had much better refrigerated facilities. The 311 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: rural areas had nothing, and there were gaps, and you know, 312 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 3: people would say to me, oh, we would import you know, 313 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 3: chicken and it would come in beautiful and at the 314 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 3: port it would be kept cold, and then we would 315 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 3: find it, you know, five days later in a rural 316 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 3: distribution warehouse with just a wet towel over it to 317 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 3: keep it quote unquote fresh. So it was a work 318 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 3: in progress when I went, but it's accelerating fast. And 319 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 3: I would say, China, it's a huge country. It has 320 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 3: a huge food system. It's cold chain is still only 321 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: one sixth the size of the US one, so there's 322 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 3: still you could argue that the US one is bigger 323 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 3: than we need, but there's definitely still room for growth 324 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 3: in China. But you can start start seeing that it's 325 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 3: really getting there. So, for example, Washington State cherries used 326 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 3: to be air freighted to China because they were popular 327 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 3: as gifts, and you couldn't get decent cherries imported from 328 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 3: the countryside in China because the cold chain didn't exist 329 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 3: to get them to the cities. So it's easier to 330 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 3: import them, air freight them from Washington State, then bring 331 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 3: them in from the countryside in China, just because the 332 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 3: cold chain wasn't there. That's changing. So now it's making 333 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 3: less economic sense to air freight them, and as the 334 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 3: cold chain is built up in China, more economic sense 335 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 3: to bring them in from the countryside. And you can 336 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 3: see that change in sort of real time. Washington State 337 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 3: farmers are adjusting to that because the cold chain in 338 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 3: China's picking. 339 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: Up after the break. How refrigeration can reduce food waste 340 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,719 Speaker 1: or if you're not careful, increase it. If you've been 341 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate and 342 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps 343 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: other listeners find the show. Having seen enough refrigerators in 344 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: America over the years of traveling to America, oh my god, 345 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: American fridges are huge and they really don't need to 346 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: be ah. But on food waste itself, there are two 347 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,479 Speaker 1: stories to be told when it comes to refrigeration. On 348 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: the one hand, in developing countries where you still get 349 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: a lot of agriculture being part of the economy, not 350 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: having a coal chain can lead to a lot of 351 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: food waste as the food travels from the farm to 352 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: the consumer because it rots in the process. On the 353 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: other hand, having access to refrigeration in developed countries means 354 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: people just buy a ton of food and think it's 355 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: going to be all okay in the fridge, and it 356 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: isn't the case, and a lot of food is wasted 357 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: in refrigerators. So how do we actually try and figure 358 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: out how to reduce food waste and use refrigeration as 359 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: a benefit not a loss. 360 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really interesting problem. You know. Food waste 361 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 3: is often touted as the reason to build a cold 362 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 3: chain in countries like I visited Rwanda with a UN 363 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: sponsored sort of effort to bring the cold chain. I mean, 364 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 3: people are losing thirty to forty percent of the harvest 365 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 3: before it ever gets to market. Now, that's a horrific 366 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 3: waste in a country as poor, and you can't afford 367 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 3: to be losing that much food. So you can see 368 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 3: why there's a desire for a cold chain. The problem, 369 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 3: as you say, is that in the developed world, we 370 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 3: are throwing away thirty to forty percent of our food 371 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,719 Speaker 3: at the retail and consumer end. The abundance that refrigeration 372 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 3: has given us is translated into a sort of lack 373 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 3: of care, a willingness to waste the food is so 374 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 3: plentiful and so cheap that people would rather go and 375 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 3: buy something else, I mean honestly, rather than sniff their milk, 376 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 3: because obviously sniffing off milk will kill you. Everyone knows 377 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 3: that they would rather pour it out and buy you know, 378 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 3: just trust the cell by label and buy another pint. 379 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 3: And that's that isn't an impact of refrigeration too. So 380 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 3: some of the things I looked at here are first 381 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 3: of all, sell by dates ridiculous. There is no sort 382 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 3: of logic to them. I mean, in the US, it's 383 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 3: a particular mess you have because it can be state 384 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 3: by state. So in Montana milk will expire a week 385 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 3: earlier than it will in the rest of the country. 386 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 3: There's nothing particularly you know, poisonous to milk about Montana. 387 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 3: It's just the system. So that's ridiculous. You know. People 388 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 3: have tried to come up with all kinds of smart 389 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 3: fridges and technological solutions here. To my mind, the things 390 00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 3: that work most effectively are actually ways to save food 391 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 3: food from the refrigerator and make it visible. So there's 392 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 3: a few different things. I mean, one, there's a quote 393 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 3: from an architect I love that says, small fridges make 394 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 3: good cities. But we know this with motorways. When you 395 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 3: build a bigger motorway, you get more traffic. Is what 396 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 3: actually happens. People think it's going to be great and 397 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 3: you know traffic what No, it's the theory of induced demand. 398 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 3: Well it applies to fridges too. As your fridge expands, 399 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 3: you just stalk it and then more goes to waste, 400 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 3: and so small fridges shopping on a more frequent basis, 401 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: so you have to go to the store and you're 402 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 3: actually thinking about what you're going to eat for dinner 403 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 3: that evening, rather than shopping for some distant sort of 404 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 3: two week horizon when obviously things are going to change 405 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 3: and you're not going to feel like, I don't know, 406 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 3: spaghetti bolona is when it turns out to be a 407 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 3: sunny weekend, you know. And so so a lot of 408 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 3: those sorts of things are important in people's minds. A 409 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 3: fridge nowadays is actually like a bank vault, like you 410 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 3: put things in it and they stay safe. That's not 411 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 3: actually the case. The you know, the produce is still dying. 412 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 3: The meat, the bacteria on the meat are still reproducing. 413 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 3: It's just happening more slowly, but it is not a 414 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,959 Speaker 3: safety vault that will keep your food good forever. And 415 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: so I think I find keeping food out of the fridge, 416 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 3: not milk and meat obviously, but fruit and vegetables actually 417 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 3: reminds you that it's there. It tastes better when you 418 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 3: eat it. As tomatoes, peaches, things like that should never 419 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 3: be in the fridge anyway. That knocks out their flavor 420 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 3: producing mechanisms. They will taste worse. Bread should never be 421 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 3: in the fridge. Potatoes, onions, these things should never be 422 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 3: in the fridge. So yes, saving food from the fridge, 423 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 3: shopping buying less, those kinds of things. One of the 424 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 3: refrigeration experts I spoke to found that she's working on 425 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 3: a project that was using urban agriculture, not to try 426 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 3: and feed the city because you can't do it at 427 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 3: that scale, but as a way to remind people, oh, right, 428 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 3: this is living produce. It is fresh when it is harvested, 429 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 3: and it isn't fresh a week later, and once you 430 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 3: are aware of the work that goes in the seasonality 431 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 3: things like that, people were wasting less food. That was 432 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 3: what she found. So growing food actually had the benefit 433 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 3: of people wasting less food. 434 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: Writing this book, did it change the way you eat. 435 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it did. I mean I was already you know, 436 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 3: I make a podcast about food science and history. I 437 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 3: write about food, so I was already a relatively conscious 438 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 3: of sort of thinking about where my food came from 439 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 3: and things like that. But and you know, knowing what's 440 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 3: in season when and such like. But absolutely it made 441 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 3: me much more aware of the fact that say, you 442 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 3: buy a bag of spinach, you put it in your fridge, 443 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 3: you eat it. A week later, you're patting yourself on 444 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 3: the back, thinking you did yourself, you know, a favor there. 445 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 3: You had a healthy bag of you didn't waste it, 446 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 3: you got all those vitamins. No, after a week in 447 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 3: your fridge, that spinach has half the vitamins and minerals 448 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 3: it did when you first bought it. So having that realization, 449 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 3: I think seeing those statistics, it reinforced the fact that 450 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,719 Speaker 3: it's not getting any better in the fridge. Now, some 451 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 3: things get better in the fridge. A curry left over night, 452 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 3: that gets better, But you know, as Bolonnet's sauce, yes, 453 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 3: because you know, the fat and the collagen has time 454 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 3: to sort of solidify and then redisperse and it becomes silkier. 455 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 3: But fruit and vegetables, no, don't stockpile them, you know, 456 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 3: buy it and eat it. So it really has changed 457 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 3: sort of how I shop and eat. And it has 458 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 3: definitely made me focus on seasonality too, Like I just 459 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 3: don't eat apples outside of the autumn. And you know what, 460 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 3: that's great because there's there's other fruits you can have 461 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 3: in the summer and other fruits. I have citrus in 462 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: the spring and I have berries in the summer, and 463 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 3: it's annoying and obnoxious and I try not to be 464 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 3: preachy about it, but also it all tastes better, Like 465 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 3: you really don't need to have a tomato in December. 466 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: It's gonna taste like nothing anyway, Just don't do it. 467 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: I learned a lot from the book. Thank you, Nichola, 468 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 469 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 3: This is fun. 470 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to zero. And now for the 471 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: sound of the week. That's the hum of a refrigerator. 472 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: John Klee of the band Velvet Underground calls it the 473 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: drone of Western civilization. It's so constant. He says that 474 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: the band would use its steady sixty cycle hum to 475 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: tune their instruments. That's another great piece of trivia from 476 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: Nichola's book, and also check out gastropod her podcast about 477 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: How We Eat. If you liked this episode, please take 478 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: a moment to rate and review the show on Apple 479 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: Podcasts on Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or 480 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: with Joe Biden and other lovers of ice cream. You 481 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: can get in touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. 482 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: Zero's producer is Mighty Lee Rau. Bloomberg's Head of podcast 483 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: is Sage Powerman, and head of Talk is Brendan newnam Our. 484 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: Theme music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to Kira Bendrim, 485 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: Aaron Rudkoff and Matthew Griffith. I am Ashadrati. I'm back soon.