Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody.
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Horde and thanks for downloading The Bengals Booth Podcast.
Speaker 2: The this is what you need, I'll give you what
Speaker 2: you need. Addition, as I discussed what the Bengals need
Speaker 2: to do to reclaim the AFC North and ultimately return
Speaker 2: to the Super Bowl with Robert Weintraub, who covers the
Speaker 2: Bengals for Cincinnati Magazine and one of the best NFL
Speaker 2: analytics websites ftnfantasy dot com. The Bengals Booth Podcast is
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Speaker 1: Of the Bengals.
Speaker 2: Now here's a quick reminder that you can have the
Speaker 2: latest edition of this podcast delivered write to your phone, tablet,
Speaker 2: or computer by subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It's
Speaker 2: the greatest thing since the Best Photos of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: At the top ofthe Bengals dot com home page, one
Speaker 2: of the categories you can click is Photos, which connects
Speaker 2: you to a wide variety of photo galleries. If you
Speaker 2: haven't done so already, I encourage you to check out
Speaker 2: the one titled best of twenty twenty three season. Team
Speaker 2: photographer Ryan Meyer has selected the top photos he took
Speaker 2: during the past season, and his work is amazing. Some
Speaker 2: of my favorites include Joe Burrow on one knee firing
Speaker 2: an imaginary arrow into the sky, the upper torso of
Speaker 2: Trey Hendrickson emerging from smoke to take the field before
Speaker 2: a game, and Cam Taylor Britt dancing in the locker
Speaker 2: room after a Bengals victory. There are more than two
Speaker 2: hundred photos in all, and Ryan's work is spectacular. Be
Speaker 2: sure to check out the best foot Photos of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three. Now time to get to this week's guest.
Speaker 2: Robert Weintraub covers the Bengals for Cincinnati Magazine and wrote
Speaker 2: the Bengals season preview chapter for this year's edition of
Speaker 2: the FTN Football Almanac formerly known as The Football Outsiders Almanac.
Speaker 2: Robert writes about the team honestly and critically, but it's
Speaker 2: worth pointing out that he is a diehard Bengals fan.
Speaker 2: Robert you wrote about the roller coaster ride that was
Speaker 2: this past season on a weekly basis for Cincinnati Magazine.
Speaker 2: This is a Bengals podcast. So let's start with the positives.
Speaker 2: What were they in your view this year?
Speaker 3: There were any I'm trying to remember off the top
Speaker 3: of my head if there were any. Yeah, you know, obviously,
Speaker 3: it started on such a funk with Joe's injury in
Speaker 3: training camp and then sort of seemed to have all
Speaker 3: these hairpin turns of optimism and pepsimism sometimes.
Speaker 1: You know, in this quarter.
Speaker 3: It was such a bizarre season, and so much of
Speaker 3: it wrapped around Joe's overall health and then of course
Speaker 3: when he went out. I thought that was one of
Speaker 3: the main positives, the development of Jake Browning and the
Speaker 3: way the team rallied around him in a lot of ways,
Speaker 3: the way they showed that they're not just a quarterback,
Speaker 3: in an all pro quarterback level quarterback who could you know,
Speaker 3: carry the team on his back. They had quite a
Speaker 3: bit to offer there, just beyond what Joe could offer.
Speaker 1: So I think that was one of the main developments.
Speaker 3: But overall, I think you have to say it was
Speaker 3: mostly a negative season just because of the expectations and
Speaker 3: because of what we see going on, not just in
Speaker 3: the Greater AFC, but in the AFC North. Anytime the
Speaker 3: rest of the division makes the playoffs and you're the
Speaker 3: one team excluded, even with a winning record, that that
Speaker 3: feels bad. And you know, it felt good to see
Speaker 3: the Browns lose their game and the Steelers lose their game.
Speaker 3: In some ways, that was the old positives of the season.
Speaker 3: But I think overall we just assume flush twenty twenty
Speaker 3: three down the memory hole and begin a fresh in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four with a healthy Joe Burro playing seventeen
Speaker 3: games plus a few more hopefully in the postseason, as
Speaker 3: we've gotten used to. It's hard to believe, but we've
Speaker 3: gotten so used to playoff, deep, playoff runs in Cincinnati
Speaker 3: that when they don't happen for whatever reason, you really
Speaker 3: left with a sour taste in your mouth. And you know,
Speaker 3: in some ways that's a positive too. It's just the
Speaker 3: bar has been raised on what a successful season is
Speaker 3: in Cincinnati, and that can be nothing but good. The
Speaker 3: expectations are higher, and after so many years of really
Speaker 3: low expectations in Cincinnati, the idea that a season where
Speaker 3: you just missed the playoffs despite a winning record is
Speaker 3: viewed as a really kind of a terrible disappointment overall,
Speaker 3: kind of a good thing if you can look at
Speaker 3: it from the glass half full method of looking at things.
Speaker 2: I think that's probably how most Bengals fans would look
Speaker 2: at it. Maybe the one other thing I would throw
Speaker 2: in is that they managed to have a winning record
Speaker 2: despite burrows injuries against statistically the most difficult schedule ever
Speaker 2: of all time.
Speaker 1: If you can believe it.
Speaker 3: Yes, the numbers that we'd crunch at what used to
Speaker 3: be Football Outsiders and is now Ftnfantasy dot Com, So
Speaker 3: go to that web address for all your advanced statistical needs.
Speaker 3: I'll spare you the way.
Speaker 1: It went down in terms of the name changed, but.
Speaker 3: Indeed it was the most difficult schedule ever played in
Speaker 3: since DVOA, which is the efficiency stat that we use,
Speaker 3: has been tabulated going back to the early eighties, So
Speaker 3: that should tell you. I mean, obviously, we mentioned just
Speaker 3: a minute ago that three teams in the division made
Speaker 3: the playoffs, and Baltimore in particular had a historic season.
Speaker 3: Playing them twice obviously was something that tipped the scales
Speaker 3: and the difficult schedule apartment for sure.
Speaker 1: And you know, you look back at those games.
Speaker 3: Burrow was semi healthy in one and they lost by
Speaker 3: three points and were ahead when he went out for
Speaker 3: the season, and the other. It's not like you can
Speaker 3: come away with those games and think that the Ravens
Speaker 3: were some kind of.
Speaker 1: Way better than the Bengals.
Speaker 3: Obviously, if Burrow had played and been healthy in both
Speaker 3: those games, you like their chances. So despite playing that
Speaker 3: extremely difficult schedule all the way through, and of course
Speaker 3: that included the forty nine Ers who they defeated handily,
Speaker 3: and the Steelers and the Browns who had good seasons
Speaker 3: dboa wise, four games there. Yeah, Bengals were obviously, you know,
Speaker 3: all those games, and that just tells you, like you said,
Speaker 3: they came away with a nine to eight record, they
Speaker 3: lost their quarterback, they showed development in certain other areas,
Speaker 3: and they had.
Speaker 1: To play such a difficult schedule.
Speaker 3: The only issue is, of course, those three teams in
Speaker 3: the division aren't going anywhere. We'll see how that plays
Speaker 3: out next year. But nevertheless, you have to like their
Speaker 3: chances going forward, assuming that Burrow was healthy.
Speaker 1: Robert.
Speaker 2: It's very interesting because in the FTN Football Almanac prior
Speaker 2: to the season you wrote about the Bengals building a
Speaker 2: team that could beat Kansas City, specifically could beat Kansas
Speaker 2: City to get to the Super Bowl. Did that make
Speaker 2: it harder or does that make it harder to beat Baltimore,
Speaker 2: Cleveland and Pittsburgh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there is a bit of a taking
Speaker 3: your eye off the ball that was right in front
Speaker 3: of you, so to speak, in sinsais.
Speaker 1: It's hard to blame them when you go.
Speaker 3: To the championship game twice in a row against the
Speaker 3: same team and you see that their team is obviously
Speaker 3: built in a similar way with the superstar quarterback, trying
Speaker 3: to get a young fleet defense that doesn't cost a
Speaker 3: lot of money and fill in around that. You know,
Speaker 3: from there, it made sense for them to maybe not explicitly,
Speaker 3: but you know, implicitly try and do the same thing
Speaker 3: and kind of attack what they saw against Kansas City.
Speaker 3: They figured that was going to be the team they'd
Speaker 3: run up against. There was obviously healthy respect, I think
Speaker 3: for the other three divisional teams, but in a way,
Speaker 3: they wound up at least this season, kind of building
Speaker 3: a team that was a little light in the loafers,
Speaker 3: shall we say, didn't have enough rear end perhaps for
Speaker 3: the division that they're in, and I think if they
Speaker 3: had to do it over again, they might have adjusted
Speaker 3: the way they built certain aspects of the defense slightly.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's only so much you can do, and
Speaker 3: you have guys on the roster that you were expecting
Speaker 3: to fill those roles that maybe didn't step up enough
Speaker 3: or got hurt. You know, things happened in the NFL.
Speaker 3: But I think there'll probably be a bit of a
Speaker 3: readjustment this season or this offseason in terms of let's
Speaker 3: go back to doing what you know Marvin Lewis always
Speaker 3: did first and foremost, shall we say, which was build
Speaker 3: your team to win your division first, compete against those
Speaker 3: six games, and then you know, whatever happens after that
Speaker 3: will take that as it comes. But I do think
Speaker 3: they'll try and look, you know, at the Ravens and
Speaker 3: the Browns a particular, and say they ran over us
Speaker 3: this year.
Speaker 1: How do we avoid that? In twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: Four, Visiting with Robert Weintrauve writes about the Bengals for
Speaker 2: Cincinnati Magazine. You can follow him on Twitter or x
Speaker 2: if you have embraced the name change at Rob Wine
Speaker 2: w E I n let's talk about the five game
Speaker 2: stretch where Joe Burrow is healthy and the Bengals went
Speaker 2: four and one. We're pretty dominant, and their wins over
Speaker 2: San Francisco and Buffalo. I tend to think that those
Speaker 2: were the real Bengals, But in those games where their
Speaker 2: weakness is just temporarily hidden.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean to a point, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: I think that's the case. Anytime you have a team
Speaker 3: operating at all cylinders so to speak, or tina looks
Speaker 3: really good because of what you expect. In this case,
Speaker 3: their offense and Joe Burrow. Yeah, that's what they do.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what a great quarterback does. He masquerades
Speaker 3: other elements of your team that might not be as
Speaker 3: strong because the other team is so busy trying to
Speaker 3: deal with what they The Bengals did so well. I mean,
Speaker 3: it sounds like that's a negative. Yeah, masquerades some of
Speaker 3: their some of their flaws. But that's kind of the point.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, especially after Joe gets this big money,
Speaker 3: there's always going to be an element of the team
Speaker 3: that isn't one hundred percent or where you want it
Speaker 3: to be. It's not a game changing at every single
Speaker 3: unit on the field. That's just not possible. So you know,
Speaker 3: you build to your strengths. In this case, Joe Burrow,
Speaker 3: and as you saw, let's say, in the forty nine
Speaker 3: ers game, you know, they dominated the game through their
Speaker 3: passing attack, and because they were so effective at it,
Speaker 3: that opened.
Speaker 1: Up other areas.
Speaker 3: It made their areas of quote unquote weakness, you know,
Speaker 3: kind of less so because the forty nine ers were
Speaker 3: chasing the game in a lot of ways, they had
Speaker 3: a much better tackling game and a much better sort
Speaker 3: of defensive defense against the pass in that game than
Speaker 3: they ordinarily would, especially you know, in the fourth quarter
Speaker 3: when they needed it. You know, the forig nine ers
Speaker 3: may play those games. They did in that game, they
Speaker 3: threw for a lot of yards, brought perty played very well,
Speaker 3: but as you say, you didn't really think about that
Speaker 3: aspect of the game because he made a couple of mistakes,
Speaker 3: and he did so because he was playing in a
Speaker 3: way he wasn't accustomed to, playing from behind, chasing the game,
Speaker 3: chasing Joe Burrow. That's the way the Bengals want to play.
Speaker 3: So yeah, the answer to the question is yes, but
Speaker 3: that's by design. Unfortunately, of course, when your quarterback then
Speaker 3: gets hurt or you know, as we saw before, those
Speaker 3: truly healthy games plays in unlimited capacity. Obviously, those fulls
Speaker 3: come to the ford not so easy to disguise, and
Speaker 3: then you have problems and you have to adjust your
Speaker 3: game plan and kind of seek out victories as best
Speaker 3: you can. Jake Browning in a couple of those games
Speaker 3: masked flaws in the same way that Burrow did, you know,
Speaker 3: especially against the Vikings.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's kind of the way.
Speaker 3: Of the NFL roster building, Tawe roster building. I guess
Speaker 3: he'd say, that's kind of what you have to do.
Speaker 3: Play to your strength, maximize it and working around the
Speaker 3: portions of your team that are not so good and
Speaker 3: hope that the other team is you know, behind and
Speaker 3: can't take advantage of what you don't do as well.
Speaker 2: Let's talk defense. What do the analytics like DVOA tell
Speaker 2: us about the Bengals defensive woes and what needs to
Speaker 2: be fixed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the analytics meet the eye test. I think you'd
Speaker 3: say they played pretty poorly, especially against the run, but
Speaker 3: also in a lot of areas against the past. One
Speaker 3: thing that was curious was that they were actually top
Speaker 3: ten against number one wide receivers in the past and
Speaker 3: played well against should say they were thirteenth against number
Speaker 3: one and top ten against number three receivers, thirty second
Speaker 3: in the league against number two wide receivers, which shows
Speaker 3: you that the depth was not there. Chido Ouzias, you know,
Speaker 3: come back from injury was obviously an issue. Injuries to
Speaker 3: cam Britt, you know, that obviously played a huge role
Speaker 3: in that because the depth with effected after that and
Speaker 3: just you know, the communications issues of having such a
Speaker 3: young secondary played itself out in a way that other
Speaker 3: teams took advantage of the matchups where they found it.
Speaker 3: They were also poor against defending tight ends, extremely poor.
Speaker 3: So tight ends did a number as it's happened in
Speaker 3: the past against Cincinnati, and.
Speaker 1: Their run defense was poor.
Speaker 3: They'd actually had a fairly strong pass rush, especially in
Speaker 3: what we call adjusted sack rate. They actually were top
Speaker 3: ten better than Pittsburgh, better than Cleveland. Teams that are,
Speaker 3: you know, supposed to have this all dominant pass rush.
Speaker 3: I think overall, though, the pressure rates kind of brought
Speaker 3: them back toward those teams, which is why you saw,
Speaker 3: you know, when Trey Hendrickson basically wasn't storming the quarterback
Speaker 3: and getting to him. They were lacking in that area.
Speaker 3: They still require, you know, more consistent pass rush or
Speaker 3: at least pressure not necessarily sacks, but pressure from other
Speaker 3: elements of that front four in the passing game and.
Speaker 1: Then the running game.
Speaker 3: Even with DJ Reader at full out out there was
Speaker 3: it was a disaster in a lot of ways. It
Speaker 3: was bad upfront, and they're the Evan statistics which we
Speaker 3: separate into the line play versus open field and second
Speaker 3: level yards.
Speaker 1: Bad across the board.
Speaker 3: The tackling was poor after being so good really in
Speaker 3: the back half of twenty one and all of twenty
Speaker 3: twenty two, it took a step backward. Hard to really put,
Speaker 3: you know, a pinpoint on why that happened exactly other
Speaker 3: than young players, lack of practice time, and just you know,
Speaker 3: sort of the way the game's unfolded, and something.
Speaker 1: To do with their opposition.
Speaker 3: So I think they'll be a real sort of come
Speaker 3: to Jesus moment in the offseason. Luen Rumo is going
Speaker 3: to get back to basics, get these guys tackling again,
Speaker 3: and you know, just that aspect that improved so much
Speaker 3: from Cincinnati from twenty twenty and twenty twenty one into
Speaker 3: the playoff run, and then in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: You know, they didn't do.
Speaker 3: A lot different in those years schematically at all. What
Speaker 3: they did do was tackle more efficiently and much more effectively.
Speaker 3: If they can get back to that level of tackling
Speaker 3: with a little bit more beef inside, and we'll see
Speaker 3: what happens with DJ Reader and or his replacement, you
Speaker 3: know that could that'll be a real area they'll shine
Speaker 3: a spotlight on, I think, defensively and look to get
Speaker 3: since the night back to where they were at least
Speaker 3: approach where they were in twenty to twenty two.
Speaker 2: I thought Jordan Battle had a very solid rookie year.
Speaker 2: The Bengals certainly are not about to give up on
Speaker 2: Dax's hill. Can we assume that that will be a
Speaker 2: much better safety duo with a year of experience in
Speaker 2: NFL coaching under their belt.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think there's any way it can't be,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, barring injury. You see it all
Speaker 3: over the league. Young players go up and down. That's
Speaker 3: just the nature of it. The defense they were asked
Speaker 3: to play was very complicated. Part of the reason they
Speaker 3: drafted Jordan Battle, which was something of a surprise given
Speaker 3: some of their other needs at the time in the
Speaker 3: draft last year, was that they thought that he.
Speaker 1: Could handle it.
Speaker 3: He's obviously still that alabamda Alabama under the master Nick Saban,
Speaker 3: and he showed that he could. It wasn't that he's
Speaker 3: such a you know, more gifted football player than Nick
Speaker 3: Scott or other guys out there, but you know, he
Speaker 3: can comprehend what's needed on a play to play level,
Speaker 3: and he understands where he needs to be, where he
Speaker 3: needs to be. Visa VIA's teammates is you know, not
Speaker 3: necessarily under his control. And that's the kind of thing
Speaker 3: that really has to improve, and I think it only
Speaker 3: can improve with more reps under their belt and communication
Speaker 3: passing off receivers, knowing where to be and telling the
Speaker 3: other guys in the secondary in the back seven who
Speaker 3: to guard and where to be on the field during
Speaker 3: any given play.
Speaker 1: You know, these are the kind things that are just experience.
Speaker 3: It's just playing and playing and playing. And he kind
Speaker 3: of had to be thrown into the fire and take
Speaker 3: your lumps. That's just kind of how it works in
Speaker 3: the NFL. Very few guys come in and are instant
Speaker 3: stars that have no you know, no improvement required, no
Speaker 3: seasoning required.
Speaker 1: They're just that great.
Speaker 3: Battle was a good, you know, good story and played
Speaker 3: very well for a third rounder.
Speaker 1: But you know he made mistakes too.
Speaker 3: So it's just a question of getting those guys more
Speaker 3: time together. There's no point in pulling the plug on them,
Speaker 3: either one of him or Hill or even Nick Scott. Really,
Speaker 3: you could upgrade as your third safety if you want,
Speaker 3: but you know that that might be not the best
Speaker 3: place to put your dollars in free agency. If you're
Speaker 3: looking to upgrade the rest of the team, I think
Speaker 3: they'll just need to, you know, to get into the
Speaker 3: film room, and no reach guy is meant to be.
Speaker 3: And I think that's where we saw, you know, the
Speaker 3: lack of Jesse Bates, of course, but Von Bell in particular,
Speaker 3: just as a leader and somebody who knew exactly where
Speaker 3: to go and more important, where to tell the other
Speaker 3: guys where to go, even at after the snap or
Speaker 3: right at the snap. You saw it a lot with
Speaker 3: Bell pointing and telling guys, you're coming.
Speaker 1: Here, here's what they're trying to do.
Speaker 3: Don't let them do it, you know, with hand signals
Speaker 3: and barking at his teammates. They missed Vaughan quite a bit,
Speaker 3: and I think, you know, there's no reason to think
Speaker 3: that Battle can't develop into a Von Bell like player
Speaker 3: now that he's had a year under his belt and
Speaker 3: can take on that same role. I think that's why
Speaker 3: they drafted him, and I think he had a very
Speaker 3: promising step in that direction as a rookie.
Speaker 2: So the Bengals' biggest defensive need is what.
Speaker 3: Well, I think the obvious is when you say biggest,
Speaker 3: because literally and figuratively, it's that run stepper inside. Assuming
Speaker 3: DJ Reader is not available. Not a Bengal who knows
Speaker 3: what the status will be given.
Speaker 1: Is unfortunate injury.
Speaker 3: He really hates to see an injury and that he's
Speaker 3: had already once in his career and so difficult to
Speaker 3: come back from, especially as he pushes thirty.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's just that kind of leg.
Speaker 3: Injury is difficult for anybody, much less somebody who weighs
Speaker 3: three hundred plus pounds. So we shall see what we
Speaker 3: shall see in DJ's case, but I think they'll definitely
Speaker 3: be looking at somebody else to help, you know, buck
Speaker 3: up the interior run defense first and foremost, even with
Speaker 3: Reader there, it suffered guy. They really need a three
Speaker 3: tech and a sort of nose tackle slash zero tech
Speaker 3: guy to be able to handle two blockers at once,
Speaker 3: penetrate upfield, get some pressure on the quarterback, make plays
Speaker 3: in the backfield.
Speaker 1: The Bengals were.
Speaker 3: Terrible in both stuffed what we call it FtM fancy stuffed,
Speaker 3: which is basically stopping short yardage and also making the
Speaker 3: plays for negative yards against the run. They were terrible
Speaker 3: in both of that, and that a lot of times
Speaker 3: comes down to not having penetrators up front. I think
Speaker 3: they'll definitely look to improve on that, either in the
Speaker 3: draft or free agency or both. Perhaps, you know, it
Speaker 3: comes down to how you're gonna approach that. You want
Speaker 3: to get somebody in free agencies. Don't put yourself in
Speaker 3: a position where you have to get a guy like
Speaker 3: that in the draft, especially picking a eighteenth.
Speaker 1: It's a little dodgy.
Speaker 3: Who's going to be left You never know for sure,
Speaker 3: and you never want to put yourself in a position
Speaker 3: where you have to go for a certain position in
Speaker 3: the draft obviously, so I think they'll look to a
Speaker 3: guy like at Grover Stewart, maybe of Indianapolis Tiger Tart
Speaker 3: who had some issues in Tennessee before signing out with
Speaker 3: the Texans late in the year. Some AFC South guys
Speaker 3: there or some of the other possibilities throughout the league,
Speaker 3: but guys who they know can occupy space and up
Speaker 3: those interior run numbers that they were still porous at
Speaker 3: last season.
Speaker 2: Still to come with Robert what the Bengals should do
Speaker 2: with t. Higgins and if they need to upgrade the
Speaker 2: tight end position. But first, a quick reminder that the
Speaker 2: Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you by Paid Corps,
Speaker 2: proud to be the Bengals official HR software provider, by
Speaker 2: Alta Fiber future proof fiber Internet designed to elevate your home, business,
Speaker 2: and community to a new level, and by Kettering Health
Speaker 2: the best care for the best fans. Kettering Health is
Speaker 2: the official healthcare provider of the Bengals. Our guest is
Speaker 2: Robert Weintraub, who writes about the Bengals for Cincinnati Magazine
Speaker 2: and other publications. Let's turn to offense. Joe Mixon had
Speaker 2: more than fourteen hundred combined rushing and receiving yards. He
Speaker 2: scored twelve touchdowns. He never fumbles. I can tell you
Speaker 2: from being in the locker room that he is a
Speaker 2: leader and that is a significant factor. Should he be
Speaker 2: the Bengals number one running back in twenty twenty four, Well.
Speaker 3: Let me put it this way. I definitely think he
Speaker 3: should be on the Bengals, Yes, and he should be
Speaker 3: their starter.
Speaker 1: At least.
Speaker 3: You can make a strong argument that he could give
Speaker 3: up some of his carries and let it be much
Speaker 3: more of a democratic backfield than it was this year.
Speaker 3: Not that Joe was the ones sain't give me it
Speaker 3: off to me, I know it's a coach's decision, but
Speaker 3: the idea that they're looking to upgrade to Derrick Henry
Speaker 3: or Sequon Barkley, I hear all kinds of names out there,
Speaker 3: is to me ridiculous. I mean mixing, especially for the
Speaker 3: money they paid him. Had an outstanding year if you
Speaker 3: match his numbers up our advanced numbers up against say
Speaker 3: Derek Henry, mixing his way on top. And a lot
Speaker 3: of that is because he had an excellent year catching
Speaker 3: passes coming out of the backfield, which is something that's
Speaker 3: really always been a strong part of his game and
Speaker 3: has been somewhat underutilized in Cincinnati. Part of The reason is,
Speaker 3: obviously they have such a plethora of pass catchers that
Speaker 3: may change in the near future, and holding on to
Speaker 3: a guy like Mixon who's an excellent receiver, still makes
Speaker 3: all the sense in the world. So I think you'll
Speaker 3: see I for one, think Joe should definitely stay, and
Speaker 3: I definitely think that Chase Brown should get more love.
Speaker 1: Obviously, he had his rookie, he.
Speaker 3: Was injured, There's a lot of reasons why he didn't
Speaker 3: kind of break through until near the end of the season,
Speaker 3: but you could definitely see in our charts where again
Speaker 3: the open field and second level yards, which for a
Speaker 3: lot of the season were very low, in the bottom
Speaker 3: third of the league for Cincinnati, in large part because
Speaker 3: mixing for all his good traits is not really a
Speaker 3: breakaway threat.
Speaker 1: Once Brown was.
Speaker 3: Introduced and got into the game, got into the offense,
Speaker 3: those numbers went way up, and they wound up finishing
Speaker 3: in the in the mid teens, in the middle of.
Speaker 1: The pack there. So clearly he had an effect.
Speaker 3: If they can stay healthy and be a one two
Speaker 3: punch from the beginning of the year and even get
Speaker 3: a third back in there, I think if this is
Speaker 3: what some of the more successful running teams in the league.
Speaker 3: Show is that you can never have too many running backs.
Speaker 3: And if your line is strong enough and you know
Speaker 3: it blocks in the scheme, that is, you know, very favorable.
Speaker 3: As I guess you would say, to multiple backs and
Speaker 3: multiple kinds of backs, you know, get.
Speaker 1: Somebody else in there.
Speaker 3: You want to upgrade on a Travon Williams, I can.
Speaker 3: I can see that happening, and I think they will
Speaker 3: draft a running back for sure at some point.
Speaker 1: But to me, the the mix and.
Speaker 3: Brown combination was plenty good enough to go back to
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four for sure.
Speaker 2: What should they do with T Higgins? What will they
Speaker 2: do with T? Higgins?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 3: Well, I think in near term the answers are one
Speaker 3: and the same. He will be franchised, and they should
Speaker 3: franchise him. They have a ear control at a manageable cost.
Speaker 3: You don't give that up. You want to sign them
Speaker 3: theoretically to a long term deal and keep him happy,
Speaker 3: but you know, maybe that's.
Speaker 1: Not in the best interest of the team.
Speaker 3: You never really know for sure. Obviously he had some
Speaker 3: injuries this year. We go back to the AJ Green situation.
Speaker 3: Maybe toward the tail end of his career, when it
Speaker 3: was like, well, we should reward him, give him a
Speaker 3: long term contract when you know Joe Burrow's rookie year,
Speaker 3: and they said, no, let's just franchise and keep him
Speaker 3: for the one year. See how it plays out. Turned
Speaker 3: out he wasn't really you know, worthy of the long
Speaker 3: term deal after that, and you know, it's not exactly
Speaker 3: the same T. He's a lot younger, obviously, but things happen.
Speaker 3: Maybe T gets, you know, another season where his injury
Speaker 3: hit and you decide that we can't spend that kind
Speaker 3: of money on a second receiver with Jamar Chase obviously
Speaker 3: coming up for a rich extension and you want to
Speaker 3: put the money somewhere else. It's difficult to say. It's
Speaker 3: not that Tea doesn't deserve it, but I think in
Speaker 3: this case, another year Tea and A managed fixed costs
Speaker 3: that you know what's going to have.
Speaker 1: You know, you have him in the.
Speaker 3: Fold, and that way you don't have to worry about
Speaker 3: finding another number two receiver of his quality, which is
Speaker 3: very hard to find despite the fact there's so many
Speaker 3: receivers coming into the league every year who who were
Speaker 3: good or you know how the potential for being outstanding.
Speaker 3: I think in this case, the right thing to do
Speaker 3: and what the Bengals do are the same. They will
Speaker 3: franchise See and keep them around for twenty twenty four
Speaker 3: for sure, and then you know, kind of worry about
Speaker 3: the future, push it down the road a little bit,
Speaker 3: which is fine for the time being.
Speaker 2: You retweeted something last week that caught my eye. The
Speaker 2: last eight playoff teams had something in common stellar tight
Speaker 2: end play. Do the Bengal need Stellar tight end play?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Is that retweeted or re exed? What is the totology?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 2: Redisseminated, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: I put it out there after hearing it from someone else.
Speaker 1: I think let's put it that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think there's any question they need an upgrade.
Speaker 3: Stellar is in the ivy beholder. I suppose you know
Speaker 3: they It was just fine in twenty twenty two with
Speaker 3: Hayden Hurst. I don't know if i'd call him stellar,
Speaker 3: but it was good enough for what they had and
Speaker 3: what they needed. You can make the argument with the
Speaker 3: offense kind of reframing itself, perhaps away from concentrating on
Speaker 3: such a three wide out attack with the likely departure
Speaker 3: of Tyler Boyd, that you want to get a tight
Speaker 3: end who is better and you know, puts more stress
Speaker 3: on the defense in ways that we haven't seen in
Speaker 3: Cincinnati in sometime.
Speaker 1: You know, brock Bauers is not going to last till
Speaker 1: number eighteen.
Speaker 3: Sorry for all those people fantasizing about that, but seems
Speaker 3: highly unlikely. And the Bengals aren't going to trade up
Speaker 3: for him either. I would doubt so in that sense.
Speaker 3: I think they will go after somebody in free agency,
Speaker 3: perhaps like adult and Schultz, who was a target last
Speaker 3: year and decided to go to Houston. He's still a
Speaker 3: free agent. You know, they got him on a one
Speaker 3: year deal. If he wants to stay with the Texans.
Speaker 3: There's plenty of other guys out there. Hunter Henry in
Speaker 3: New England leaps to mind. No a fan perhaps who's
Speaker 3: been somewhat you know, underwhelming, but has an extreme amount
Speaker 3: of talent. You know, I think that there's no question
Speaker 3: that they what they want to do is have a
Speaker 3: better pass catching threat. Now, what they did have last
Speaker 3: year was, you know, a way to work both Tanner,
Speaker 3: Hudson Andrew Sample into the attack and they found ways
Speaker 3: to do it.
Speaker 1: I think that spoke highly for Brian Callahan.
Speaker 3: Who congratulations to him now the head coach of the
Speaker 3: Tennessee Titans, and much deserved.
Speaker 1: And I think that caught the eye of a lot.
Speaker 3: Of people around the league, is you know, they managed
Speaker 3: to take a couple of guys who you know didn't
Speaker 3: have much profile and much experience in doing things positively
Speaker 3: for an off let's say, in Hudson and Sample, and
Speaker 3: made them both work in ways that helped the offense
Speaker 3: down the stretch. With a backup quarterback in there, and
Speaker 3: Dan Pitcher obviously taking over for Brian is the natural
Speaker 3: choice and nothing's going to change in that respect. So
Speaker 3: you know, I don't think they need to necessarily rework
Speaker 3: how they run their offense entirely if they get in
Speaker 3: somebody who threatens the defense down the seam a little
Speaker 3: bit more than the guys they have last year, but
Speaker 3: they desperate that sort of downfield element of attack more
Speaker 3: so than what they had last year. And with a
Speaker 3: quarterback like Joe Burrow, who's so accurate and can really
Speaker 3: make a player like that, you know, better than he
Speaker 3: actually is, for lack of a better phrase, you know,
Speaker 3: you find somebody like a Hunter Henry or Dalton Shaltz,
Speaker 3: and then you really got something there where offenses will
Speaker 3: be hard pressed to stop all their threats when they're
Speaker 3: all on the field.
Speaker 2: Let's assume another team throws a bunch of money at
Speaker 2: Jonah Williams to be the starting left or right backle
Speaker 2: on that other team. Should the Bengals next right tackle
Speaker 2: be a high draft pick or an affordable free agent?
Speaker 3: Well, that's a great question in terms of you know
Speaker 3: who's available and for what costs, and we don't know
Speaker 3: that yet.
Speaker 1: For sure.
Speaker 3: I go back to the point I made earlier where
Speaker 3: you don't want to go into the draft saying oh,
Speaker 3: we definitely want to draft a tackle at number eighteen
Speaker 3: and we're just going to take the.
Speaker 1: Best one left.
Speaker 3: Seldom winds up working out well for your Team's how
Speaker 3: you wind up with Billy Price.
Speaker 1: No offense against Billy Price. But that's what happened.
Speaker 3: They desperately need a center, and they drafted one who
Speaker 3: is not worthy of that draft status.
Speaker 1: And that could happen.
Speaker 3: I mean in eighteen you're in sort of a no
Speaker 3: man's land there if they were, you know, picking eighth
Speaker 3: or something, if Jake Browning couldn't play and they wound
Speaker 3: up at a top ten pick, and you can sort
Speaker 3: of guarantee yourself one of those elite tackles coming out
Speaker 3: this year in the draft. That would be a different conversation.
Speaker 3: But because that's not the case, you don't know if
Speaker 3: tale Waga, who's you know? You always want the Polynesian
Speaker 3: guys on your team, don't get me wrong, But you
Speaker 3: don't know if he's going to be there. You don't
Speaker 3: know what level of player is going to be there.
Speaker 3: I think they'll probably, assuming they do lose Jonah, which
Speaker 3: we don't know for sure yet, either, they'll look to
Speaker 3: replace him in free agency, at least to a point
Speaker 3: where you have somebody you know can come in and play.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, they like Cody Ford, but I
Speaker 3: think they want to go a little bit better than that.
Speaker 3: Maybe Mike on Whenue of the Patriots is a little
Speaker 3: too good or will wind up being a little too
Speaker 3: pricey for them.
Speaker 1: That remains to be seen.
Speaker 3: Somebody in between, like a Germaine Olano.
Speaker 1: I can't even say his name, thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I breezed through the Polynesian name, but I had
Speaker 3: trouble with Jermaine and sorry about that, buddy. But somebody
Speaker 3: like that who not only is you know quality enough
Speaker 3: to play, but it isn't going to break the bank,
Speaker 3: but also has position versatility and can play on both
Speaker 3: sides of the line. I think somebody like that makes sense.
Speaker 3: And then obviously if there's somebody like in the draft,
Speaker 3: either in the first round or later, you bring somebody
Speaker 3: in there and groom him to become the starter sooner
Speaker 3: or later at right tackle, assuming again that Jonah does depart.
Speaker 2: One more topic about the Bengals and then one question
Speaker 2: about you. The Bengals topic is this. We mentioned Brian
Speaker 2: Callahan moving on to Tennessee and Dan Pitcher getting promoted
Speaker 2: from quarterbacks coach to offensive coordinator. There's a chance for
Speaker 2: a restart of sorts. Is there anything obvious the Bengals
Speaker 2: should be thinking about with this change?
Speaker 3: Well, I think what it's less about like just you know,
Speaker 3: running the ball more or you know, kind of dedicating
Speaker 3: themselves to the run more. And I think you know
Speaker 3: that that all that kind of thing that the fans
Speaker 3: like to talk about in terms of run pass ratio
Speaker 3: often comes down to the game script, the opponent, who
Speaker 3: you know, what's going on at that particular, who's healthy,
Speaker 3: who's not. It's very easy to sit here and say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: Dan Pitcher is going to come in and try.
Speaker 1: And run the ball more. But who really knows what's
Speaker 1: going to happen.
Speaker 3: I think what they but I do think there's a
Speaker 3: way to make the team. And I don't want to
Speaker 3: say this to make it sound like Joe Burrow is
Speaker 3: not worthy of doing this, because he certainly can.
Speaker 1: But you want to make it.
Speaker 3: So that every game doesn't rely so much on Joe
Speaker 3: Burrow's excellence. And you know when twenty twenty two last
Speaker 3: year they were so good down the stretch, especially, they
Speaker 3: didn't rely on Burrow to do it all all the time.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, it.
Speaker 3: Becomes a crutch with teams with great players at quarterback
Speaker 3: that it's you know, we got Joe, let's let.
Speaker 1: Him figure it out.
Speaker 3: And like you were saying before about masking what you
Speaker 3: don't do well, I think what you want to do is,
Speaker 3: especially on offense, gave yourself in a situation where you
Speaker 3: do so many things well that the teams that the
Speaker 3: opposing defense really has no option that works for them,
Speaker 3: and you always wind up in a city situation where
Speaker 3: you're either you know, in a lead in the second
Speaker 3: half or you know right there, you're never playing from behind,
Speaker 3: You're never relying so much on Burrow and his talents
Speaker 3: to bail you out of things you want to get
Speaker 3: in a situation all the time where you know we
Speaker 3: can do it if we need to. Joe's obviously good enough.
Speaker 3: But let's let some of the other guys, Let's en
Speaker 3: some of the other areas of attack carry the weight here.
Speaker 3: Let's let more of a short passing game. Let's let
Speaker 3: the running game dictate how defenses play us. And I
Speaker 3: think going under center more, which they started to do
Speaker 3: before and after, you know, before and around Burrow's injury,
Speaker 3: and certainly when you saw Jake Browning come in certain
Speaker 3: elements of the attack under center rather than the preferred
Speaker 3: shotgun method that Burrow obviously is great at and prefers.
Speaker 3: But I think they'll work in a lot more of
Speaker 3: the under center, which allows them to kind of run,
Speaker 3: run or pass out of similar formations. Puts a lot
Speaker 3: more stress on the defense and gives them a lot
Speaker 3: more things to guess at, and it just makes so
Speaker 3: much of your offense work better and uh and look better.
Speaker 3: And I think that's what you'll probably see, at least,
Speaker 3: you know, depending on Dan Pitcher's thoughts about that. I
Speaker 3: don't really know for sure, but I think that's what
Speaker 3: the Bengals are trending toward before Burrow got hurt, and
Speaker 3: you know, kind of used Jake Browning's games as proof
Speaker 3: of concept that it really can work with a guy
Speaker 3: who's less limited as a passer than Burrow, but you know,
Speaker 3: could move unlike Joe in some of those games, and
Speaker 3: could you know, put defenses under different kinds of stresses
Speaker 3: than Burrow can. I think that's what they want to
Speaker 3: work toward going forward. And obviously, if they need to
Speaker 3: rely on Joe just to bail us out of a
Speaker 3: game late with his magic right arm, they always have
Speaker 3: that in the back in their back pocket.
Speaker 1: But you don't want to rely on that so much.
Speaker 2: He continues to ooze awesomeness out of every pore. Certainly,
Speaker 2: you have famously said, all right, we've got a few
Speaker 2: minutes left, and I want to talk about your labor
Speaker 2: of love, the NYC one thousand. Now, I grew up
Speaker 2: in New York State, in Lakewood, New York. And when
Speaker 2: some people hear that, they assume that I grew up
Speaker 2: close to New York City, that's not the case. Lakewood
Speaker 2: is closer to Cincinnati than it is to Manhattan. My
Speaker 2: family had three acres and two barns, so I grew
Speaker 2: up in a very rural environment. And yet I love
Speaker 2: the NYC one thousand because it's great sports writing. Explain
Speaker 2: for people that have no idea what I'm talking about
Speaker 2: your project, the NYC one.
Speaker 3: Thousand, A labor of love might undersell it. It's a
Speaker 3: herculean labor of love. Perhaps a labor of insanity, we
Speaker 3: shall see. But yes, I have a sub stack, and
Speaker 3: it's dedicated to counting down the top one thousand games, matches, races,
Speaker 3: of all sporting events of every stripe in the history
Speaker 3: of New York City. Now the conceit has had to
Speaker 3: have actually happened in New York City or the greater
Speaker 3: New York City area. So you know, Super Bowl three
Speaker 3: involving the Jets playing the Colts in Miami, a famous game,
Speaker 3: but that doesn't count. It has to happen in New York,
Speaker 3: where I am from. I grew I was born in
Speaker 3: the city and grew up just outside it, so that's
Speaker 3: that's my hometown. You and I of course share the
Speaker 3: Syracuse connection, so we have that Central New York, but
Speaker 3: Syracuse doesn't count either. It has to be in New
Speaker 3: York City. And yeah, I just got into it because
Speaker 3: I just, I don't know, I've always been enamored of
Speaker 3: obviously sports and sports history.
Speaker 1: A big fan of the New York.
Speaker 3: Teams, Bengals being the wille exception, and you know, I
Speaker 3: just I'd like to start reading about things that happened
Speaker 3: not just before I was born, but way before I
Speaker 3: was born. And a lot of what we think of
Speaker 3: is just pure sports history actually conflates with actual history,
Speaker 3: for lack of a better word, and certainly municipal history.
Speaker 3: And if you're interested at all in what New York
Speaker 3: has gone through as a city in developing, you know,
Speaker 3: low these many years from you from an almost pastoral
Speaker 3: background to where they were in the late eighteen hundreds
Speaker 3: post Civil War, when sports began in New York. All
Speaker 3: the way through, it's you know, rise and rise to
Speaker 3: the number one city in the world. Sports has really
Speaker 3: mirrored that and you see that in the in the
Speaker 3: in the action that's taken place there, and so many
Speaker 3: not just great games with great athletes, great figures of
Speaker 3: all stripes who have come through and have performed in
Speaker 3: these you know, magical palaces that they that they have
Speaker 3: in New York Yankee Stadium, in Madison Square Garden and
Speaker 3: various others. So I took it upon myself. I started
Speaker 3: with I thought I would just do one hundred perhaps,
Speaker 3: and then it realized, you know.
Speaker 1: If you're going to do this, do it right.
Speaker 3: And it seemed me that a thousand was exactly the
Speaker 3: round number I needed. So I have a six point
Speaker 3: scoring method, you know, kind of determining the importance of
Speaker 3: the game, the drama involved, the historical figures involved, whether
Speaker 3: or not it you know, registered outside of New York,
Speaker 3: these kind of things, and then I write a short
Speaker 3: you know, essay about each game. Does don't go into
Speaker 3: super detail necessarily, but it gives me a chance not
Speaker 3: only to go back in time with the reader and
Speaker 3: and you know, kind of talk about some of the
Speaker 3: interesting tidbits, but also you know, bring forth some of
Speaker 3: the great writers in particular who covered these games in
Speaker 3: the golden era of newspapers and magazines, you know, as
Speaker 3: we've seen with the recent death of Sports Illustrated and
Speaker 3: the written media, print media in general, physical print media anyway,
Speaker 3: it's really a lost art and something that I particularly am,
Speaker 3: having been a long time obviously fan of Sports Illustrated
Speaker 3: in particular, feel terrible about. So the more I can,
Speaker 3: you know, kind of do my part to remind people
Speaker 3: of what great stuff that not just Sports Illustrated, but
Speaker 3: all the New York newspaper writers brought to the enjoyment
Speaker 3: of the events by their coverage. That's a big part
Speaker 3: of it too, So I try and get that in
Speaker 3: there well and bring to light some long forgotten and
Speaker 3: maybe some you know, not so recently forgotten games and
Speaker 3: events that took place in New York. It's just a
Speaker 3: lot of fun and hopefully a lot of fun for
Speaker 3: people who read it.
Speaker 2: It is a lot of fun to read. I'm having
Speaker 2: a great time, and we're only in the eight hundreds,
Speaker 2: so there's a long way to go and a lot
Speaker 2: left to enjoy. We're about to run out of time
Speaker 2: on this zoom call, so I will make sure that
Speaker 2: folks know how they can get the NYC one thousand. Robert.
Speaker 2: I always appreciate your time, Thanks for the insight, and
Speaker 2: look forward to talking Bangles again sometime soon.
Speaker 1: Anytime for you.
Speaker 3: Dan.
Speaker 1: You know that, buddy, Thanks so much.
Speaker 2: If you would like to check out the NYC one
Speaker 2: thousand and you really should do a search for NYC
Speaker 2: one thousand substack. That will take you to a page
Speaker 2: where you can sign up for a free subscription and
Speaker 2: have the latest stories sent directly to your inbox. Or
Speaker 2: if you say no thanks to a subscription, you'll be
Speaker 2: taken to the homepage where you can find all of
Speaker 2: the stories that Robert has written so far. They really
Speaker 2: are quite remarkable. And if you're interested in finding analytical
Speaker 2: content about the Bengals and the NFL, the data that
Speaker 2: used to be found at Football Outsiders can now be
Speaker 2: found at Ftnfantasy dot com. That's going to do it
Speaker 2: for this episode of the Bengals Booth podcast, brought to
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Speaker 1: Of the Bengals.
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Speaker 2: the Bengals Booth podcast