Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on. These are our stories done.
Speaker 2: Done, Yay, that's messed up.
Speaker 3: An SVU podcast.
Speaker 1: My name is Lisa and my name is Kara, and
Speaker 1: every week we dive into an episode of Law and
Speaker 1: Order SVU the true crime it's based on. And you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes we chat with a guest, but sometimes we don't,
Speaker 1: but first we chit chat together. What's up?
Speaker 3: The specials out on Netflix night Owl.
Speaker 2: If you haven't watched it, please watch it for meeting
Speaker 2: there and watch.
Speaker 1: It night Owl. One hour of Lisa Trigger doing stand up.
Speaker 1: It's so crazy, vulnerable, one full hour.
Speaker 2: I also want credit that I did not start this
Speaker 2: episode saying who do who?
Speaker 3: I have put that to bed.
Speaker 1: I feel happy we have exercised the Carla from you.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, have you been seeing one of them
Speaker 2: days press Like Kiki Palmer, I always loved her and
Speaker 2: like obviously a SVU alum, but like, she is just
Speaker 2: so funny and I don't think there's ever been a
Speaker 2: more charismatic human in the world. That's quick, funny, smart
Speaker 2: on it not a like we'll call people like I'm
Speaker 2: just obsessed. No one's existed like her. I love her.
Speaker 2: I saw it. I saw a movie.
Speaker 3: How was it? I liked it. It's really good. I
Speaker 3: mean it's fun. They have great chemistry, Kiki.
Speaker 1: I truly, like you're saying, I would sit and watch
Speaker 1: her just like shop for shoes online, Like I would
Speaker 1: watch her do anything. Like she's so funny and charismatic,
Speaker 1: like you know, but I wanted there to be like
Speaker 1: more jokes kind of in this. But besides that, I
Speaker 1: like there's so many funny extra characters. Dwayne Perkins is
Speaker 1: in it as a really funny character. Janelle James, Kat Williams.
Speaker 1: There's like it's great. I mean, if you like Insecure,
Speaker 1: it reminds me of like almost like an extended Insecure episode,
Speaker 1: Like it's really it really has like Insecure vibes.
Speaker 3: And I really I had a good time. I had
Speaker 3: a really good time.
Speaker 1: But yes, I've been noticing Kiky like fucking smashing it
Speaker 1: in all these interviews, and she's so funny.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, probably has a.
Speaker 1: Fun movie to see in the theater too, Like, well,
Speaker 1: I saw it with my friend and we saw in
Speaker 1: the middle of the day.
Speaker 2: We were alone, so we just kind of, oh, oh
Speaker 2: my god, what a dream.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like the It was you know, like
Speaker 1: one thirty in the afternoon and it was the Discount
Speaker 1: Theater in Pasadena.
Speaker 3: So you know, my child, I guess, why is it?
Speaker 3: But it's a new movie? What it is?
Speaker 1: This theater plays all new, They play all news. I
Speaker 1: took my kids there to see Wicked because I was like,
Speaker 1: if they walk out after hour and a half, at
Speaker 1: least I've only paid five dollars a ticket, Like it's great.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: They the tickets are five to fifty. I think if
Speaker 1: you go before sex, oh I have something to say
Speaker 1: to you. Uh oh no, and another thing.
Speaker 2: No, you're gonna be into this because it's something you've
Speaker 2: loved in the past. I started True Blood, Okay, no
Speaker 2: one told me it was soft core porn with just
Speaker 2: like fun restaurant human like chats, Like I'm obsessed, Like
Speaker 2: I can't believe the fucking is insane. I mean, within
Speaker 2: ten minutes there's a woman on a hook being fucked
Speaker 2: by a vampire and I'm like, this wasn't a selling
Speaker 2: point for anyone for me, like I'm in, I'm in forgot.
Speaker 1: I guess I forgot because that was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if HBO is still doing that, but
Speaker 1: that was definitely like the heyday of HBO being like,
Speaker 1: oh and also there's gonna be crazy fucking like no
Speaker 1: matter what it's about.
Speaker 3: You're right, I should have just known.
Speaker 2: But I think I thought it was gonna be a
Speaker 2: different type of vampire vibe and it wasn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it also like it changes a lot, like to
Speaker 1: the end of the series, Like I'm so interested in
Speaker 1: your thoughts, like because I like it's great.
Speaker 2: I would say it's not like a great show, but
Speaker 2: I'm I like it. That guy, I didn't realize he
Speaker 2: had a long career the Stars Guard The Stars Guards
Speaker 2: a vampire. Oh yeah, Like I didn't really, I didn't
Speaker 2: know about him.
Speaker 1: Really, so that was where I'm I feel like I
Speaker 1: met him in True Blood. That's how I know him.
Speaker 3: But I'm a big Anna Paquin fan.
Speaker 2: And one of the guys is actually in the episode Smoked,
Speaker 2: the guy who's dating Carrie Preston is the guy who
Speaker 2: is in the like Shelter and like shot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I couldn't believe that. I bet people you're
Speaker 1: going to see so many SVU people. I mean, like
Speaker 1: it's true Blood. It's like it's like practically OZ crossover level.
Speaker 2: But my two issues though, are like the brother of
Speaker 2: Anna Paquin and the restaurant owner look exactly alike. They're like,
Speaker 2: both just these guys with blonde I'm like in highlight,
Speaker 2: I'm like, you should have gotten just a brunette and
Speaker 2: a blonde.
Speaker 1: I can't Sam keep it straight. And the brother look alike. Interesting, Okay, okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like too similar.
Speaker 2: I can't. Like now I've got it, but in the beginning,
Speaker 2: I was like, what the fuck is going on?
Speaker 1: Jason, Sam and Jason Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I do love.
Speaker 2: This idea where it's like you're discriminating against the vampires.
Speaker 2: But I'm like, they do seem like they suck, like
Speaker 2: as people be like they are not cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's nuanced, it's nuanced.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very But Carrie Preston, like I haven't, like
Speaker 2: she's just so young.
Speaker 3: It's crazy too.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's like it must not be where I
Speaker 1: met met her. But that's like the first thing I
Speaker 1: watched that she was a regular on too.
Speaker 2: I feel I met her in terms of like there
Speaker 2: was always actresses that are good but not famous, that
Speaker 2: are nominated for Oscars, and she's one of them. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like there's just a few of these women where you're like, ah,
Speaker 2: one of the best, but like we'll never see her
Speaker 2: in right like on us, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: She was one of those yeah where it's like, what's
Speaker 3: this movie?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 2: But oh I did just supply, But I did Films
Speaker 2: to be Buried with Brett Goldstein's podcast, which I was
Speaker 2: very excited to do. And there's like thirteen questions and
Speaker 2: it's like pretty intense and obviously I prepped for ever
Speaker 2: like I was, and I was giving. I was like
Speaker 2: reading it out loud, but multiple times he went ooh
Speaker 2: that was a good one.
Speaker 3: He goes, oh that that's good.
Speaker 2: He goes that's a good answer, And I'm like, this
Speaker 2: is like and everything I hoped for for all this time.
Speaker 2: I was like making lists, like organizing for a week
Speaker 2: and a half two weeks.
Speaker 3: Did you talk about movie game in Cinea Matrix on
Speaker 3: the podcast?
Speaker 2: No? I kept it together because they have to start
Speaker 2: paying me. I can't keep talking about movie grid the
Speaker 2: way I do. I mention it after we got off
Speaker 2: because he saw every single movie I said, and I
Speaker 2: didn't have just one answer for everything. So like he
Speaker 2: saw every and I go, I'm assuming you've seen every
Speaker 2: movie for every guest you've had.
Speaker 3: So I'm like, how are you seeing all these movies?
Speaker 2: I'm like, I want to see a head to head
Speaker 2: with him and Doug Benson like, do you movies?
Speaker 3: Because he just saw every single thing and knew about it,
Speaker 3: and I.
Speaker 2: Was like, he goes, well, I don't watch TV, but
Speaker 2: I watched movies non stop, but he knew everything. It
Speaker 2: was pretty So at the end, I go, do you
Speaker 2: play movie Grid and Cinematrix? He goes yeah, And I
Speaker 2: told the story because when I first started playing, I
Speaker 2: messaged Doug Benson about it and I go, it's kind
Speaker 2: of hard.
Speaker 3: He goes, it's easy for me.
Speaker 2: So he really bobbed the drag queen to me, and
Speaker 2: so yeah, like really, I just so, yeah, so knowledgeable.
Speaker 1: Oh that's cool, that's really cool. Wait what okay? And
Speaker 1: he's just like hot with an accent and charming, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean.
Speaker 3: It's like we love. I'd be on a zoom with him.
Speaker 3: We love Brett Goldstein.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe I'll watch his show, but I doubt it.
Speaker 2: I'm never going to get into the Apple TV universe
Speaker 2: if y'all.
Speaker 1: Well, we keep saying that's the only way we don't
Speaker 1: pay for and Jared keeps.
Speaker 3: Being like, we gotta start paying for we go. We
Speaker 3: don't even have to.
Speaker 2: I have so many things I buy that it's like
Speaker 2: you got three months free all yeah, like everywhere, Like
Speaker 2: I have every Apple product, Like, so I don't I
Speaker 2: don't really know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody says several slow horses or I want to
Speaker 1: watch the second season a Bad Sisters, like they're all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so much, but I don't know. I
Speaker 2: was just really proud of myself and it was really
Speaker 2: good question. You know, it's like my dream, so like
Speaker 2: that's what great stuff.
Speaker 1: Did you see the Oscar nomination Speaking before of Carrie
Speaker 1: Preston getting knowledged for an Oscar, No.
Speaker 2: I've heard, like I just want Demi Moore it to win.
Speaker 2: I don't care. I don't like. Well, once I saw
Speaker 2: all the hubbub that like the Challenger's soundtrack was snobbed,
Speaker 2: I started listening to it and it is just like amazing,
Speaker 2: Like what the fuck.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Amelia Perez of it all is weird. It
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like anyone likes it. So it's just confusing.
Speaker 1: I guess what is going on because I have not
Speaker 1: really heard from that many people about it. But like
Speaker 1: Coffee was vocal saying it was like one of the
Speaker 1: worst movies she's ever seen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well so I watched this thing on Instagram. But
Speaker 2: it was like, you know when you watch it and
Speaker 2: you're like, who are you and what makes you think
Speaker 2: that you're a professional at any of this? But he
Speaker 2: was just saying, like the Academy used to be mostly
Speaker 2: actors and now they opened it up and so like,
Speaker 2: and it's international, and it's like it's not as craft
Speaker 2: based or like that's I don't know, I have no idea, Okay,
Speaker 2: it just seems like everyone's like, oh, it's like a
Speaker 2: modern musical, and I'm like, oh, that's like musicals. But
Speaker 2: for it to even win a glow like we're not
Speaker 2: even talking to Oscar like over Wicked, a Broadway show
Speaker 2: that's been on for twenty years, Like are you out
Speaker 2: of your fucking mind? In what world would any song
Speaker 2: beat defying gravity or whatever? Song they pick like, there's
Speaker 2: just like that's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, I will know.
Speaker 2: It's like I don't even care anymore. It was just
Speaker 2: cool that like Bowen got to read them with Rachel
Speaker 2: Sennet Young Hollywood. You know, it's like it's exciting. I'll
Speaker 2: look at the dresses, but I just don't care, right,
Speaker 2: except for Jimmy Moore.
Speaker 3: I want her to win. I hope she wins, that's
Speaker 3: all I really hope.
Speaker 1: It's wild for like a horror movie like that to
Speaker 1: be nominated for Actress for Best Picture.
Speaker 3: It's cool.
Speaker 1: It's like a new feels like horror is getting a
Speaker 1: little bit of a more big foot in the door.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's so interesting, you know. Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1: They never like, I mean, Casey can probably speak to
Speaker 1: this better, but horror stuff never gets recognized right in Oscars.
Speaker 5: Parasite, Yeah, historically, I feel like historically it's been sort
Speaker 5: of snubbed from the Oscars. But latly the last couple
Speaker 5: of years, I feel like like the shape of water
Speaker 5: is sort of horror esque parasite.
Speaker 1: Uh sure, but the substance is supposedly like one of
Speaker 1: the glorious, like those are like more Yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: not scary.
Speaker 2: That's the thing. Like the substance is not scary at all.
Speaker 2: It's just gross. There's got it. It's not scary. Okay,
Speaker 2: well I'm too scared.
Speaker 1: Wait, this is a great opportunity for Casey to tell
Speaker 1: us about a new podcast he's hosting.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, yes, yes, that's right. I'm hosting a
Speaker 5: new podcast. It's called Deer Movies. I Love You. It's
Speaker 5: on the exactly right network that I'm hosting it with.
Speaker 5: We know that network. I'm hosting it with million Erico,
Speaker 5: formerly of I Saw What You Did. And Yeah, it's
Speaker 5: just a very like approachable, fun movie podcast that is
Speaker 5: all about sort of like the emotional connection we have
Speaker 5: with movies, and we'll get into like the nitty gritty
Speaker 5: of like you know, super art house bullshit, but we
Speaker 5: make it approachable for everybody and it's like super fun
Speaker 5: and silly.
Speaker 3: So give it a little lot of it.
Speaker 1: You're one of my You're one of my movie touchstone
Speaker 1: people that I know has seen everything and I have
Speaker 1: to ask you about So I think this is perfect.
Speaker 2: No, that's fine. I I want you to listen to
Speaker 2: my episode. I want to see if you're impressed with
Speaker 2: my option.
Speaker 4: I definitely will I'll give you all yeah, I'll listen
Speaker 4: and no, no, I can just.
Speaker 2: Give you my sheep. Yeah, I want a report card.
Speaker 2: I want yeah, I want to know. I want to
Speaker 2: impress everyone with my choices. Now, I it was really hard.
Speaker 2: I should just give you the questionnaire though, too, because
Speaker 2: I was giving it to everyone. I was blacked out
Speaker 2: at the bars. I was like corner everyone at the cellar,
Speaker 2: like I was just so curious about it, Everyone's choices.
Speaker 4: I should have you guys on his guests.
Speaker 3: We should yours simply show guests.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's not like we don't like need
Speaker 5: we don't have them every episode, but like the first
Speaker 5: episode we have Chile was sharp.
Speaker 3: Oh wait, that's my friend. How do you know about Schile?
Speaker 3: What the fuck?
Speaker 5: She's really good friends with Millie. And so we bring
Speaker 5: people on in the guest segment to talk about their
Speaker 5: film area of expertise, and Chile would came on to
Speaker 5: talk about Magic Mike and which is got of expertise
Speaker 5: of mine as well? So but yeah, so yeah, you
Speaker 5: guys can come on and talk about your area of expertise.
Speaker 2: What is I would say Edward Norton Movies in the nineties.
Speaker 3: That's Percy's Dear Movies. I love you.
Speaker 1: Everybody, go give it a little follow if you don't
Speaker 1: follow it already.
Speaker 3: It's so fucking exciting.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the ones, one of the questions on
Speaker 2: his is like the film that's supposed to be bad
Speaker 2: but you love and so I had a list of
Speaker 2: a bunch and I actually went to Rotten Tomatoes and
Speaker 2: I got both scores and averaged them to get what
Speaker 2: is actually the worst. And that was really fun too.
Speaker 2: He's like, Wow, I'm really into your preparation. I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, oh yeah, babe.
Speaker 3: And it was The Stepford Wives.
Speaker 2: It's actually twenty six and thirty for Wow, because that's
Speaker 2: that you love that most people hate.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm trying to think what mine would be.
Speaker 2: Well, I had a few so huge, okay, so Deep
Speaker 2: Blue Sea, but actually critics gave it sixty and then
Speaker 2: it was thirty nine. Human Centipede was forty two and
Speaker 2: twenty six. Step for Wives, like I said, twenty six thirty.
Speaker 2: Love Stinks was nineteen and sixty three. Wait, I Love
Speaker 2: Love Stinks with mel Brooks No with French Stewart and
Speaker 2: Bridget like Samson.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's a different movie I'm thinking of.
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, I was thinking about it with mel Brooks
Speaker 1: and Leslie and Warren where he he's a billionaire that
Speaker 1: has to be unhoused for a month in order to win.
Speaker 3: His money back. Oh I love that. No, that that
Speaker 3: can't be the worst I met.
Speaker 2: The Sweetest Thing is twenty five and sixty five, and
Speaker 2: then the Duplex was thirty five and forty, so I
Speaker 2: went with the twenty six and thirty Stepford Wives.
Speaker 3: Casey, what what?
Speaker 4: I love Duplex? I love that movie.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, Hell yeah, Kara, have you seen Duplex? No,
Speaker 2: what's Duplex? It's actually Drew Barrymore and Ben's Stiller and
Speaker 2: Harvey fire Steam.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Okay, I don't know it. I look it up. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's fine. I mean, I'm glad Casey likes it like it's.
Speaker 4: Directed by Danny DeVito it and I.
Speaker 5: Think you wonder I love it and it and he
Speaker 5: also directed Matilda and it feels kind of like an
Speaker 5: adult Matilda.
Speaker 3: I mean, did he direct War of the Roses or no?
Speaker 2: Oh? Is he just in it? Let's see? Now this
Speaker 2: is a movie podcast. By the way, the movie I
Speaker 2: was thinking of it. Yeah, directed by Danny DeVito. Fuck yeah,
Speaker 2: I love him damn because that that's like a trigger
Speaker 2: family classic War of the Roses war.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we used to have it.
Speaker 1: We taped it off TV on VHS. We had to
Speaker 1: get scribbled on the side. War of the Roses.
Speaker 3: The movie I was thinking of, by the way, is
Speaker 3: life Stinks.
Speaker 1: And I'm having dejavus because I feel like we've had
Speaker 1: this exact conversation before where You've brought up love stinks
Speaker 1: and I've been like, oh, the mel Brooks, it's life stinks.
Speaker 2: I mean they the funnest questions is like what film
Speaker 2: thought you thought was the sexiest? But then the side
Speaker 2: character or is like what should you have not found arousing?
Speaker 3: But you do? And I would say it's the most
Speaker 3: vulnerable I've been on a podcast.
Speaker 2: Wow, No, I probably say crazy shit on this for sure,
Speaker 2: for sure, But oh my god, wait, I do have
Speaker 2: something to say. So my friend Sophia, Oh you know Sophia.
Speaker 2: We went to backslize with her. So she's at Live
Speaker 2: Nation and she's actually like she was like she brought
Speaker 2: podcast touring to Live Nation. It was like all her
Speaker 2: first accounts, Like she and so I got to go
Speaker 2: to Madison Square Garden this week because one of the
Speaker 2: podcasts she started, and she also did Gigglely Squad at
Speaker 2: Radio City, so it's like a pretty big week for
Speaker 2: her in New York. But I saw that a Dungeons
Speaker 2: and Dragons podcast at Madison Square Garden.
Speaker 1: Jared's was Clint produced the whole thing that Clint was there.
Speaker 1: Clint was there, He's been there for a week. He
Speaker 1: produced that whole show.
Speaker 2: Okay, so I you know, they had fire, there was pyro,
Speaker 2: there was a lot of screens, and I mean because
Speaker 2: we played Call of Cuthulhu during the pandemic, I kind
Speaker 2: of like understood what was going on. Yeah, but it's
Speaker 2: truly because I was thinking about people that are dragalongs
Speaker 2: coming to our live show, Like is it as confusing?
Speaker 2: And I don't think so because we're recapping a thing.
Speaker 2: But I would like they would just show a character
Speaker 2: on the monitors and people would just start losing their shit. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it was exciting. It was a behaved crowd. I mean,
Speaker 2: security did not really have to work too hard. But
Speaker 2: it's crazy. Yeah, it's called Dimension twenty. Okay, my friend
Speaker 2: Schamann is in the cast. Wait, which one is Chavon
Speaker 2: Is she blonde and burnette, blonde with like a britishercent.
Speaker 2: She was my favorite. Well she played a character. I
Speaker 2: didn't hear a British accent. Oh, but she was dressed
Speaker 2: so cute. I mean the girls were obviously my favorite.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, was Emily Axford in it too? She is she
Speaker 2: married to one of the other ones. Yes, Emily and Murph.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: My apartment, my first apartment in la Emily and Murph
Speaker 1: lived two doors down for me in that the worst.
Speaker 2: You would know all these dungeon Canadian doors, Like in
Speaker 2: what world wouldn't you have a lot of.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of UCB people too, Like yeah, they
Speaker 1: that's like, well it is because one of the guys
Speaker 1: I write, I was like, he was in someone's photo
Speaker 1: with Dan Black, who you're friends with, and they were
Speaker 1: at the SNEL party.
Speaker 2: So I was like, oh my god, because it was
Speaker 2: like the main guy is charming. And then someone was
Speaker 2: saying that they did improv classes with him, so I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, that makes more sense.
Speaker 3: It's not just like a I don't want to be like,
Speaker 3: it's not just a weirdo.
Speaker 5: But yeah, yeah, he was my improv teacher get the Brennan.
Speaker 4: And he was my improv teacher at UCB.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Oh my god, Like that's so cool. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I had a really really good time. The girls were
Speaker 2: my favor and then since it's Madison Square Garden, like
Speaker 2: a few of them lived out their fantasies and did
Speaker 2: like some wrestling moves and like, and that was fun.
Speaker 2: And then also some of the fire was a surprise
Speaker 2: and so even the players didn't know. Oh but oh,
Speaker 2: this is what I learned. Since I knew the person
Speaker 2: on production. I can't believe Clint was there. I wish
Speaker 2: I knew. I should have messaged you on my way there.
Speaker 2: I had no idea you were going. I would have
Speaker 2: been like, Clint, go say hi to Lisa. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: I would have loved it. No, So, like I knew
Speaker 2: one persons their tour manager, and then one person like
Speaker 2: is the Live Nation promoter type. But she was saying
Speaker 2: how they brought their own fucking WiFi.
Speaker 1: Oh, Clint got there a week earlier to get everything
Speaker 1: in place. He's like, there's so many pieces to this,
Speaker 1: Like we got a like he was there. I was
Speaker 1: at his house the night before he was leaving he
Speaker 1: was packing. I was like, wait, the show's on Friday,
Speaker 1: you're leaving on Sunday. He's like, it's so much like.
Speaker 2: It's but also what I would want to what I
Speaker 2: would be interested in watching, is like So then I
Speaker 2: went on the Instagram to kind of stalk everyone and
Speaker 2: see what's going on, and the main guy does a
Speaker 2: drag version where it's Bob, Monet, Jujub, and Alaska and
Speaker 2: they're all playing D and D and it's kind of
Speaker 2: what we did with Cthulhu and it is so fun
Speaker 2: and it's like the clip I saw as Jujubi being like,
Speaker 2: don't you have that bridge over the water? Does it
Speaker 2: work for acid? And like they're all so I'm like,
Speaker 2: I want to watch that. I mean, I would watch
Speaker 2: like Bob do everything. But oh, that is so funny.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. I didn't know that they did that.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, have you been watching Traders? No, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna get into it.
Speaker 1: Maybe this afternoon since I'm not feeling so hot, I'll
Speaker 1: just get into a Trader's thing.
Speaker 3: But I need to watch.
Speaker 1: I'm not want to be behind another I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: be behind on another season of Traders.
Speaker 3: I'm watching I'm not gonna. I can't. It's it's hit
Speaker 3: a fever pitch for me. I need to. It's also
Speaker 3: just such fun view.
Speaker 2: But it was also fun watching the podcast thing of
Speaker 2: not knowing anything because like people were wearing costumes and
Speaker 2: maybe think of the people that come see us. And
Speaker 2: February twenty third, we're in DC, baby at the Empires.
Speaker 1: Come see us, guys. You have a couple more weeks
Speaker 1: and we love DC. We'll be doing a new episode
Speaker 1: that you have not seen us do. We've got new games,
Speaker 1: so come on down. But yeah, we should we get started.
Speaker 3: It's nice.
Speaker 2: We didn't even talk about the impending administrations.
Speaker 1: No, we didn't even talk about doom. Look at us.
Speaker 1: We're doing great.
Speaker 2: Hello, I mean we've already said hello, we're doing Manic
Speaker 2: season five, episode two. I'm excited. I'm excited. And it's
Speaker 2: really timely. I would say, yeah theme thematically.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I would say it's timeless. It's
Speaker 1: been timely for like twenty years. But yeah, yeah, nothing
Speaker 1: has changed.
Speaker 2: And now that I'm like back into like rewatching old Simpsons,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh my god, it's like the same comment
Speaker 2: on stuff old US view. It's like the same fucking conversation.
Speaker 2: And I can't believe we let it just get worse.
Speaker 2: And oh my god, oh my god, damn boh, I
Speaker 2: get buckle up. We got some flashlights. Stabler sees blood
Speaker 2: on a concrete wall. A uniform cop runs forward. More
Speaker 2: blood on the wall where basement vibes. It's not a home,
Speaker 2: it's a huge space. Buckets more blood. Boiler room handle
Speaker 2: is locked. We hear, don't hurt me, don't hurt me.
Speaker 2: Finn and Benson arrive. It's nine fifty am. A passerby
Speaker 2: saw a broken window and thought maybe it was a
Speaker 2: break in, but.
Speaker 3: Then they hurt. Shots fired.
Speaker 2: Two dead kids in the gym, naked except for shoes
Speaker 2: and socks.
Speaker 3: This is wild. There's a hostage.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Sailor's like, give us the kid. We
Speaker 2: won't hurt you. Just let the kid go. Silence. No
Speaker 2: one says anything. A gunshot. Sailor's not playing games anymore.
Speaker 2: He kicks down the door. We see the kid. The
Speaker 2: shooter's gone. They see a window open, finished checking out
Speaker 2: the window.
Speaker 3: We what do we have? We have a culkin. It's Rory.
Speaker 2: Rory has he done other stuff like he's the worst
Speaker 2: of the Culkins.
Speaker 1: No, but he's I looked him up, like he's done
Speaker 1: other stuff. What was like Rory Culkin's big thing.
Speaker 3: He was in Signs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he has done for I mean he's he's
Speaker 1: steadily working. Like he's got like four credits from twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four.
Speaker 3: Oh, he was in a Black Mirror.
Speaker 1: Recently, he was in a bunch of episodes of Under
Speaker 1: the Banner of Heaven, which was like a pretty people
Speaker 1: liked it. It was you know, it's about Mormonism and stuff.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3: Yeah. He was in Castle Rock, which people watched on Hulu. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like, so he's doing stuff, but definitely a more low
Speaker 1: key Culkin.
Speaker 2: But I feel like Kieran was low key until recent Yeah,
Speaker 2: they've all kind of gone, you know, But I mean mccaullay,
Speaker 2: what a weird name. Oh he yeah, mccaullay is a
Speaker 2: weird name. I've never met another McCauley in my life. Yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe I will. Oh my god, I forgot Karen Culkin
Speaker 2: was and she's all that.
Speaker 3: Damn that's fun.
Speaker 2: Oh when he was the little boy and father of
Speaker 2: the bride, Oh my god, kue.
Speaker 3: Okay, back to reality.
Speaker 2: Rory. He's been hitting the head. There's blood. Sailor carries
Speaker 2: him out. He's passed out. We got to help this
Speaker 2: teenage boy. So we're getting a bus and the bus
Speaker 2: gets us right into the credits beat beep stop requested.
Speaker 3: And now we're in the gym with Cragan. It's all
Speaker 3: hands on deck.
Speaker 2: A witness saw a tall man, white man running away,
Speaker 2: but that's all we have. And then the bullet only
Speaker 2: winged the kids, so that's good and he's gonna wake up.
Speaker 3: So then we see.
Speaker 2: Vury graphic murdered children. They don't really show dead kids
Speaker 2: like this, even on this show. These dead children are
Speaker 2: sitting up against the wall. They're not fully covered in
Speaker 2: a sheet. You see like the blood spatter and the
Speaker 2: holes in their bodies of blood, and they're naked.
Speaker 1: It is kind of crazy. Yeah, it is really crazy.
Speaker 1: It's season five. I guess it's so weird because it's
Speaker 1: like in some older there's like a period of time
Speaker 1: where there's not as much graphic shit on this show,
Speaker 1: but then now in recent ones, it's like we did
Speaker 1: watch somebody just like burned alive, So like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: some of the dead body shots in the earlier seasons
Speaker 1: are very graphic, like the women in Baggage that we
Speaker 1: just did. Oh yeah, you know, but yeah, especially kids.
Speaker 1: I don't think on kids. It's usually just like I mean,
Speaker 1: when they just did Natural Born, when they did Psychopath,
Speaker 1: he kills his brother, and it's like you just see
Speaker 1: a sneaker on a kid, like you even see the
Speaker 1: body at all, you know, Like, but these are like damn, and.
Speaker 2: The teacher heard the gun shots went in because it's
Speaker 2: actually Saturday, So what the fuck? Like, why are people
Speaker 2: at the school on a Saturday. Yeah, Joey Blaine is
Speaker 2: the boy. He's in the hospital, and then Luke Rhodes
Speaker 2: and Tyrell Dent are the dead kids, and they are
Speaker 2: star basketball players. And then munch goes whoa takeing Hazen
Speaker 2: to the next level. Have some decorum, have some decorum.
Speaker 2: These dead children aren't even covered by the sheet. And
Speaker 2: then they think maybe the kids are there to shoot hoops.
Speaker 2: That's why the they're on a Saturday. The security from
Speaker 2: the school comes running in. The gun is missing. I
Speaker 2: have a gun in the lock box because I confiscated
Speaker 2: it from a student Friday, and authorities are going to
Speaker 2: pick it up on Monday. That's weird. Is't not a
Speaker 2: weird policy? What are the cops that busy pick up
Speaker 2: the gun from the school?
Speaker 1: Maybe because the school would be closed, but yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: that is crazy. If you guys hear commotion, it's there's
Speaker 1: something going on in the busy streets. It sounds like landscaping.
Speaker 1: But it can't be because I live in a concrete jungle, so.
Speaker 2: Where dreams are made of. Oh maybe the student's name
Speaker 2: is Derek Fowler. What student?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, like I already said the other boys' names.
Speaker 2: So Derek brought the gun at the same grade as
Speaker 2: the boys. So bam bam, we're gonna break it into
Speaker 2: this apartment. The dude is chilling reading the paper and
Speaker 2: he is being calm as hell. Randy Fowler is the man,
Speaker 2: and they're like, well, what about Derek, And he goes
Speaker 2: he's in his room.
Speaker 3: Would you give up your kid that fast? Okay?
Speaker 2: So then Derek is playing with his cassette player and
Speaker 2: Finn goes tell.
Speaker 3: Us about the gun, and he goes, what gun?
Speaker 2: And then the dad screams like, you bitch, you stole
Speaker 2: my gun, you little prick bitch. I added, but prick
Speaker 2: it was said, and he's being arrested. The dad's like,
Speaker 2: don't talk, son, you don't have to say anything. So
Speaker 2: I love that he's still on his rights. And so
Speaker 2: you know, we're going to go downtown. He's in cement
Speaker 2: room and bars, Finn and Craigan are gossiping about him.
Speaker 2: He lives with his mom usually, but he kept bringing
Speaker 2: knives to school. He kept getting suspended. Now he's with
Speaker 2: the dad, graduated to a gun. Uh oh, dad's in
Speaker 2: the other room. He go and basically we get confirmation
Speaker 2: that he was drinking all day, so he wasn't involved,
Speaker 2: but he was just drunk at the bar.
Speaker 3: Benson comes in.
Speaker 2: No rape on the dead boys, even though they were naked,
Speaker 2: so that's a twist too, but I'm glad they weren't assaulted.
Speaker 2: But the dad is drunk, the boy had the gun,
Speaker 2: and then Elliott called Joe Blaine is awake, so a
Speaker 2: lot of action. We gotta go see if he could
Speaker 2: pick out the killer and see if it is this
Speaker 2: expelled gun nut child. So then we meet the mom,
Speaker 2: Mayor Winningham. She has hundreds of credits. I only know
Speaker 2: her from this episode, but she's in flannel.
Speaker 1: Do you have any oh yeah, I mean just I
Speaker 1: just know her as like a person who's been in
Speaker 1: stuff my entire life. But I don't think anything that's
Speaker 1: ever been super important to me, me specifically, I'm trying to think.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, like Saint almost Fire Turner and Hooch,
Speaker 1: like she's in all these like old movies. But yeah,
Speaker 1: nothing that's big in my life. But you know, a working,
Speaker 1: well known actress. So they're asking who broke the window.
Speaker 1: He said, the man made me do it. He has
Speaker 1: a gun and the boy is sketching drawings in a
Speaker 1: yellow legal pad, so you know, he's lost his mind.
Speaker 1: His eyes are closed, he's chanting. He has a gun.
Speaker 3: Oh boy, oh boy, shooting bang bang.
Speaker 2: He's struggling, and he has a just a square bandage
Speaker 2: on his head and there's blood going through the bandage.
Speaker 2: They want info on the man who dragged him and
Speaker 2: like did all this, and but they just they just
Speaker 2: need his face. But he looks away, he looks at
Speaker 2: his mom, and then he draws the janitor's face, and
Speaker 2: the janitor has a temper. The security guy says, and
Speaker 2: he did throw a mop at kids, but the kids
Speaker 2: did fuck with his bucket. So but there's two dead
Speaker 2: and it's the two dead boys. So the two dead
Speaker 2: boys fucked with his bucket and then he threw a
Speaker 2: mop at them. So obviously this janitor is the one
Speaker 2: who double homicided these children and strip them naked.
Speaker 3: But he's the only one with keys.
Speaker 2: But there are secret backup keys, the security guy says,
Speaker 2: and obviously the janitor is the only guy who knows
Speaker 2: about the secret backup keys. So janitor's immediately in cement
Speaker 2: room bars. This is the most obvious red herring of
Speaker 2: this show's history. The janitor is nervous and shaky. It
Speaker 2: wasn't him. It's minute seven of the show. It's not him. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But they show him the sketch and he goes, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't hurt Joey, and I just want them to stop
Speaker 2: being so mean to him. So they're back at like
Speaker 2: the scene, so they have to like try to get
Speaker 2: more evidence to see what's going on, and it's a puzzle.
Speaker 2: Judas Ciper's on the scene. She's an aunt of a
Speaker 2: listener and a former guest of the pod. She's chatting
Speaker 2: and she says, like, if you shoot down here, there's
Speaker 2: so much ricochet. It's ricochet heaven ping ping ping bing
Speaker 2: like it. It would be pandemonium down here. But this
Speaker 2: pipe has evidence that the shot was shot straight up
Speaker 2: into it. There was no bouncing around, so that there
Speaker 2: was obviously a struggle or you know, someone shot up.
Speaker 2: And there's hundreds of prints in there, but the bloody
Speaker 2: prints are with the kids. There's prints everywhere. But Joe
Speaker 2: had his bloody prints on the inside door lock. So
Speaker 2: the kid with his bloody hand locked the door. So
Speaker 2: what if the kid and the shooter are actually the
Speaker 2: same person. So yeah, it's the Kulkan. So he put uh,
Speaker 2: he put it to his head and he shot it.
Speaker 2: And then because he shrunk because it's scary, and he moved,
Speaker 2: the bullet went straight up just grazed his head. And
Speaker 2: so now we have to try to find the gun.
Speaker 2: Benson finds the gun immediately, I wrote baby Benson, and
Speaker 2: I don't know why I did that. Flannel Mom opens
Speaker 2: the door and they bulldozed past her. She's like, tell
Speaker 2: me what what what? They won't, It's like, just tell
Speaker 2: her what's up. So they go into the bedroom. They
Speaker 2: were gonna get him the fuck out of there. Guns
Speaker 2: are up ready, but he's not in there. They can't
Speaker 2: find him. He ran out the window. He's gone. There's
Speaker 2: drawings everywhere, and one of the drawings is at a
Speaker 2: school gym, two dead kids and a shooter standing over them. Okay,
Speaker 2: so we plan the whole damn thing. The mom looks worried.
Speaker 2: She's in window room blinds with a view because there's
Speaker 2: woodroom blinds, but not of you like this. It was
Speaker 2: a beautiful set of windows. We don't see this very often.
Speaker 2: But she's like, it's just a drawing. It's kind of
Speaker 2: like the Hile Hitler. You know, it's like, what, it's
Speaker 2: not that big of a deal. Nah, you're being nuts.
Speaker 2: Oh god, do you think Ivanka dressed like a handman's
Speaker 2: tail character on purpose?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I heard she was wearing Oscar Delaurenta and that made
Speaker 1: me sad because I always like Oscar Delorenta stuff.
Speaker 2: Fuck. Come on, listen. At the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it's money, business, rich. They don't give a fuck. They
Speaker 2: don't give a fuck. Yeah, these people don't give a fuck.
Speaker 2: Fuck everything. I don't even want to leave its own
Speaker 2: bag anymore. I'm over it. Class warfare. Yeah, keep your America,
Speaker 2: you dumb bitches. I don't want it. I don't want it.
Speaker 2: I did watch an interview with Chloe Sevenier recently, and
Speaker 2: she was saying, she goes, yeah, we were also like
Speaker 2: punk rock back in the day, and I wish I wasn't,
Speaker 2: and she goes, I think I'd be a lot wealthier
Speaker 2: and more successful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's like you are so successful.
Speaker 2: But she's like, yeah, back in the day, like you
Speaker 2: never wanted to be seen as a sellout, and and
Speaker 2: she goes, that's not really the thing anymore.
Speaker 3: Like everyone, Yeah, but.
Speaker 1: Chloe Sevigne, we were never going to see you like
Speaker 1: on a Verizon commercial, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: she was never going to be like, well I love
Speaker 1: Chick fil.
Speaker 3: A, Like yeah for sure. Yeah, I mean she does
Speaker 3: fashion stuff. She's just cool girl vibes, you know. But
Speaker 3: that's funny. That's funny that she's like, oh, my punk days.
Speaker 2: Because that's how I'm like, where are the punk rock people?
Speaker 2: It's like the people that are shown as punk rock
Speaker 2: are the establishment?
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: People think like Rogan's a renegade and he's like so
Speaker 2: part of all of this, and where are the punk
Speaker 2: rock people? Yeah, Luigi, that's it, Just Luig it all
Speaker 2: goes back to Luigi I'm back in the episode I'm back,
Speaker 2: I'm back. I'm sorry. It's just like it's just a drawing. Man,
Speaker 2: there's two dead kids, and your son has a drawing
Speaker 2: of it. So I now get a lawyer and it's
Speaker 2: dated months before. She's like, he's gentle, nice, you know,
Speaker 2: typical boy. Mom, But he's just depressed. But he wouldn't
Speaker 2: do this. And Benson's like, if you know, but right
Speaker 2: now he can hurt someone or himself, you have to
Speaker 2: tell us where he is. She's like, I have no clue.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I didn't even realize he was gone
Speaker 2: till you guys busted in. He doesn't have any friends,
Speaker 2: no dad, it's just them too. The dad just left
Speaker 2: three years ago. Like what a bummer. People shouldn't be
Speaker 2: able to leave like that. Prison. Yeah, I believe in prison,
Speaker 2: you ditch your kid, you go to prison. Like, I
Speaker 2: don't understand why we let dad just kind of ditch
Speaker 2: their kids. I know, I know it's fucked up. There's
Speaker 2: a woman that, oh my god, did you.
Speaker 1: Say if we did, if we did do prison for
Speaker 1: abandon of your kids, guess who would be pro aborshi
Speaker 1: all these guys.
Speaker 2: The janitor does confess to something though, uh oh, he
Speaker 2: gave Joey the gun to scare the kids that picked
Speaker 2: on him, and he knows he made a mistake. He's like,
Speaker 2: I didn't know it was loaded. Why didn't you check?
Speaker 2: Why did you give a kid a gun? Like this
Speaker 2: is crazy? But anyways, we find out that this kid's
Speaker 2: on a train out of town. They're trying to track
Speaker 2: them down with schedules. They find him on camera on
Speaker 2: you know, we're confirmed. Finn calls him a psycho brat.
Speaker 2: You know, I love that, and he actually isn't leaving,
Speaker 2: and then they catch him going to the regular subway,
Speaker 2: so he's trying to trick them, and so it's is
Speaker 2: he a mastermind or an idiot? And Finn goes, I
Speaker 2: bet this is the mom's idea, Like buy a train
Speaker 2: ticket to go somewhere else and fucking come back home.
Speaker 2: Benson and Stabler are spying in a rain in a
Speaker 2: rain covered car, in a rain, in a rain drop.
Speaker 2: Suddenly we're the Magic school Bus. Benson and Stabler are
Speaker 2: spying in a car and she he's like, you would
Speaker 2: do whatever to save your kids to shut up and
Speaker 2: don't judge her, but she's dumb. She's taking a cab like, babe,
Speaker 2: obviously you're being followed. You should like you should have
Speaker 2: thought a little harder. But Munch is on foot. Finn's
Speaker 2: also in a rainy car. Benson and Stabler whatever, they're all,
Speaker 2: they're all involved.
Speaker 3: They're all gonna get him. But much I do love Munch.
Speaker 2: Munch is at the scene where the mom is getting
Speaker 2: out and he goes, I'm gonna wait for backup. He's
Speaker 2: like the only in the show's history he asks for backup,
Speaker 2: waits to go in and I bet he would say
Speaker 2: yes to protective custody and a detail.
Speaker 3: Like I just love that Munch was down to chill.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But anyways, we see the mom in the sun.
Speaker 2: They're in a warehouse. There's a lot of boxes. She's
Speaker 2: trying to protect him. They take them both away and
Speaker 2: cuffs and they're in separate rooms. They're trying to make
Speaker 2: him realize that he's in huge trouble. He starts talking
Speaker 2: about Zoultar and listen obviously, like you know, you have
Speaker 2: to have a mental break down, Like he's an an
Speaker 2: unwell boy. This boy is sick. But I I like
Speaker 2: it goes on too long. It's like so annoying.
Speaker 1: Also, Zoltar is the movie in the movie is the
Speaker 1: machine in the movie Big that turns Tom Hanks from
Speaker 1: a little boy into a man.
Speaker 2: He's like, uh, he's the fortune teller. Well, it's at
Speaker 2: Coney Islands. I've I've visited Zultar, Oh very much. Oh okay.
Speaker 2: I like the There's a woman next to him, and
Speaker 2: I like her better. Of course her fortune are a
Speaker 2: little more on point Zults.
Speaker 1: We are obviously a pro female fortune teller podcast. Of
Speaker 1: course over Zultar any day. But it's interesting that they
Speaker 1: just picked this.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's a million, like made up names you can make
Speaker 1: about this man who's in your dreams making you kill people,
Speaker 1: you know, and he.
Speaker 3: Chose Zultar, Baby, Vultar.
Speaker 2: He says it's the shooter and the drawing, and he
Speaker 2: starts hitting himself. They're like, zult is gonna and he goes,
Speaker 2: Zulter is gonna kill you. He thrashing. There's so much thrashing.
Speaker 2: Stabler's holding him. His lawyer says, we're stopping this. This
Speaker 2: boy is sick. He can't stand trial. And then, you know,
Speaker 2: do we believe him, do we not. We got a
Speaker 2: Benson Huang, you know, spying in. So Huang and Benson
Speaker 2: believe the boy, and of course Stabler Kragan are questioning
Speaker 2: the boy. But he has a pass of depression and
Speaker 2: probably add his journals are dark, but he's talented. Something
Speaker 2: tipped the fantasy to reality. That's Huang's big thing. Benson's like, well,
Speaker 2: the janitor gave him a gun, and Huang's like, no,
Speaker 2: that's not enough, Like that's the means, but that's not
Speaker 2: the trigger to the psychotic episode. So what are what
Speaker 2: could be the possible triggers. Huang is like, well, maybe
Speaker 2: it's alcohol or drugs or lack of sleep or other stressors.
Speaker 2: And then Craigan jumps in like, okay, can we actually
Speaker 2: feel more bad for like the two kids that are killed.
Speaker 3: Let's focus on that.
Speaker 2: But they do need a confession, and Huang's like, listen,
Speaker 2: we need to give him food, rest, pencil and paper.
Speaker 2: Wang's in there and he hasn't slept since Wednesday. It's Saturday.
Speaker 2: He's thrashing, and I love the word thrashing, I really do.
Speaker 2: I think that's one of my favorite words. Thrashing. He's
Speaker 2: on the grates of the windows. I mean, Stabler's just
Speaker 2: watching the thrashing. There's walking. He didn't want to take
Speaker 2: the pills, but he had bad nightmares, and the pills,
Speaker 2: you know, give him loud noises. He wanted the noises
Speaker 2: to stop. Along's being very sweet and calming, and he's like, well,
Speaker 2: what are the voices saying? So is to do stuff?
Speaker 2: And Stabler goes Zoltar and that makes him thrash some more.
Speaker 2: And then he poses like truly Britney Spears trying to
Speaker 2: be sexy in a music video against the Greats, and
Speaker 2: I paused it to write down notes and like, Stabler
Speaker 2: looks disgusted at the post too. He's like, fuck, bro,
Speaker 2: like stop, you're being weird. And so now we get
Speaker 2: the bull you know, he gets bullied. He gets the pants.
Speaker 2: People are so mean to him. He's breathing deep. He's talking,
Speaker 2: I need the shooting running bang bang, okay, move on,
Speaker 2: like I'm it just goes on forever again.
Speaker 3: I'm writing thrashing.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm the problem breathing just tell us so. Anyways,
Speaker 2: so he put his gun to his head because he
Speaker 2: wanted to get rid of the voices. That's what happened,
Speaker 2: and then everything's a blur. He's like, everyone's so mean
Speaker 2: to me. He starts to cry and he wants to
Speaker 2: see his mom. So now Craigan and Cabot, and Cabot
Speaker 2: has fully full fluffy bangs and it's really hard to
Speaker 2: pay attention to anything. She goes, this is hard, Like
Speaker 2: he's thirteen, so it should be family court. But it's
Speaker 2: premeditated murder. That's adult. And so then the DA wants
Speaker 2: to charge him as an adult. An arrayment is Monday,
Speaker 2: so Barry Mordock, the Crusader style lawyer, is taking the case.
Speaker 2: But Cabot's like, well, what this isn't a constitutional issue?
Speaker 2: What are you doing here? He goes the fourteenth Amendment,
Speaker 2: the right to refuse medication and the right to privacy.
Speaker 2: Joey's school made him take aptril and if you used to,
Speaker 2: if you've been to our live shows before, we're going
Speaker 2: to be in DC, so there's you know, if you
Speaker 2: want to see one. But aptrol was the answer to
Speaker 2: one of our trivia questions. Classic a classic trill, Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: and so that's a you know, it's a wild pill.
Speaker 2: Barry is smiling and he goes, we're gonna have a
Speaker 2: fun time in Core and he's taking on this case
Speaker 2: for free, and she's like the you know, fuck off.
Speaker 2: The side effects of drugs do not cause people to murder.
Speaker 2: And he's like, well it's mania. Mania is a side effect.
Speaker 2: You can't blame a boy for having a manic episode
Speaker 2: from a side effect that the drug was forced upon him,
Speaker 2: you know, and kab but it's like, wow, you sure
Speaker 2: know a lot about aptral and he's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: you can thank the doctor who called me about this case.
Speaker 2: Guess who it was, Hwong, Baby, it was Wong Damn
Speaker 2: Trader starting in season four of Traders. Wait, bitch, are
Speaker 2: you watching Traders? I'm about to start. I'm truly going
Speaker 2: to start. I'm watching this season.
Speaker 1: I'm going to start, not start all okay, I know,
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, because I want to. I'm telling you,
Speaker 1: you want to, like millennial TikTok. Whatever the reason is
Speaker 1: is that it's just on Peacock and it's not on
Speaker 1: my cable. If it was on my cable, I would
Speaker 1: just have it saved on my DVR. I'll be watching it.
Speaker 1: I'm an old person. I just want it on my
Speaker 1: fucking cable. But I'm gonna watch it because I'm really
Speaker 1: interested and I want to watch what Bob does.
Speaker 3: And there's a new season of two too.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, oh my gosh, there's been a lot
Speaker 1: happen I now.
Speaker 2: So anyways, Cabot runs in. She's screaming into the precinct.
Speaker 2: Benson and Stabler watch and Huang turns around slowly, and
Speaker 2: Cabot's like, what the fuck were you thinking handing this
Speaker 2: case over to Barry Mordoc. So Huang is like, listen,
Speaker 2: Barry seemed concerned about the boy. I'm concerned about the boy.
Speaker 2: And she's like, yeah, but you handed him a defense.
Speaker 2: And she's like, you know, why don't you just publish
Speaker 2: an article? Why are you fucking with my case? And
Speaker 2: he's like, fuck you before you keep railing against me,
Speaker 2: why don't you see what your detectives feel about this,
Speaker 2: you know? And so then the detectives are like, well,
Speaker 2: let's go talk to the doctor who prescribed these pills.
Speaker 2: But doctor Engels, of course, the psychiatrist is like, well,
Speaker 2: I can't let you guys know, you know, doctor patient,
Speaker 2: you know, confidentiality. And then the guy is in shock
Speaker 2: though when he hears why they're like, hello.
Speaker 3: The shooting. He goes, oh my god, like you could tell.
Speaker 2: You really rattled by the news, and he breaks his
Speaker 2: ethical work codes immediately. He's like, I actually didn't prescribe
Speaker 2: the drug, but the boy came in for therapy. I
Speaker 2: think therapy could have worked for him. But after the
Speaker 2: second session, HMO said that they wouldn't approve him as
Speaker 2: a doctor and they wouldn't pay for them. They wouldn't
Speaker 2: pay for it, but they would pay for the medication.
Speaker 2: So HMO refused to pay for therapy but paid for
Speaker 2: the pills. He's like, yeah, therapy is thousands of dollars
Speaker 2: and lots of hours. Pills are cheap and quick, and
Speaker 2: he's like, and I did not get I don't even
Speaker 2: like giving kids meds, and we don't know what these
Speaker 2: powerful drugs can do to these children. And they're like, okay,
Speaker 2: but how did he get them? And it's important we
Speaker 2: have to find out how he got these pills. So
Speaker 2: the detectives are workshopping how he got them, so it's like,
Speaker 2: did he buy him from school? And then Stable brings
Speaker 2: up snorting adderall and a riddlin, and it's like, this
Speaker 2: boy is not snorting Riddlin and drug dealing like this,
Speaker 2: Like he's not a he does not have a friend.
Speaker 2: Who is he buying? Really, I'm snorting with you. Fucking
Speaker 2: I just hate when these like amazing detectives with the
Speaker 2: best crime rate in all of Manhattan are like fucking
Speaker 2: stupid sobs. Cabot's like, you know what, I know one
Speaker 2: person I can ask to see how he got these
Speaker 2: fucking pills. So she's with the boy Joey and Barry
Speaker 2: and they're like, well, let's you know, where'd you get
Speaker 2: these pills? And Murdoch of course goes it's a phishing expedition,
Speaker 2: and Cabbot goes, listen, you're saying the drugs made him
Speaker 2: do it. I want to know who gave him the pills,
Speaker 2: and he says I don't know, so like, no doctor
Speaker 2: gave it to him, so he got it himself. So
Speaker 2: he's a criminal. So what's going on? You wanted to
Speaker 2: be on those pills? And Barry's like, babe, I don't
Speaker 2: know what you're bringing. I don't like this. I'll see
Speaker 2: you in court. So now we're in court, so you
Speaker 2: know this game. We're in court and the defense has
Speaker 2: a you know, a professional on the stand and Cabot's
Speaker 2: going to be like you dumb whore and like bring
Speaker 2: her down. So basically, like one point eight percent of
Speaker 2: people that took aptrol had manic reactions to it. So
Speaker 2: using the numbers of how many people are anatural, that
Speaker 2: means basically like fifty to seventy thousand people could have
Speaker 2: these kind of manic reactions at any moment. And then
Speaker 2: but it's like a bad study. So the study only
Speaker 2: had one hundred and ninety people in it. That's not
Speaker 2: enough to imply that seventy thousand people are going to
Speaker 2: get it. And the results of the trial have also
Speaker 2: never been replicated, and you need that for it to
Speaker 2: be credible. So then this professional, this is like one
Speaker 2: of my favorite things that's ever happened.
Speaker 3: Son.
Speaker 2: The professional brings up anecdotal evidence in Cabot goes, I
Speaker 2: thought you were here as a scientist, not as a storyteller.
Speaker 2: Burn boom, Get out of here, Get out of here.
Speaker 2: So he's on the stand, the little boy, and he's like,
Speaker 2: you know, I felt on fire. Nothing could hurt me.
Speaker 2: I did kill those boys. I wanted to die. I
Speaker 2: was trying to take my own life, but I was
Speaker 2: shaking too much. And then Cabot shows the drawing not
Speaker 2: good for you, Joey, and he's like, it's just a drawing,
Speaker 2: and it's like, no, it's the dead kids from the gym.
Speaker 2: But also, you keep aiming aptrel. But you drew these
Speaker 2: and went to a psychiatrist and planned the shooting before
Speaker 2: anyone gave you aptrol. So boom baby, And this is
Speaker 2: one of the worst wigs of all time. On the stand,
Speaker 2: I would say, especially the hair is bad. The wig
Speaker 2: is weird. It's a weird choice. It's a weird hairdo.
Speaker 2: It's like, what were they trying to say? Like, there's
Speaker 2: just so many questions with the wig, but also a
Speaker 2: lot of questions with aptrol, and where did he get
Speaker 2: the drugs?
Speaker 3: Okay, So then the little culkin.
Speaker 2: Is like, maybe I had the thoughts, but I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have done it without the drug, And so then it's
Speaker 2: like who prescribed it?
Speaker 3: You know, no one.
Speaker 2: He's stuttering, I don't know, I don't know. He's screaming,
Speaker 2: I don't know. Cabot's like, you wanted it, you stole it.
Speaker 2: Stop you know, they're they're on a they're on a
Speaker 2: scream fest. And then the mom gets up and says,
Speaker 2: I gave it to him. Okay, it was me. Cabot
Speaker 2: is stunned. Wow, she's wrong. So we're in blind's room,
Speaker 2: but it's like the dingy one. She told Barry Murdock
Speaker 2: about the pills and he said it doesn't matter, you know, where,
Speaker 2: as long as he took them. So then they're like,
Speaker 2: so it was prescribed by a doctor and she goes, no,
Speaker 2: it just showed up in the mail. It just arrived
Speaker 2: and they're like what. She goes, no, I didn't buy it.
Speaker 2: I didn't ask for it nothing, it just arrived. She's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: when the HMO said that they weren't going to pay
Speaker 2: for therapy, the pills just arrived on my steps. And
Speaker 2: they're like what the fuck? And she's like, listen, I
Speaker 2: started a new job. He was getting in trouble in school.
Speaker 2: My boss was mad, and then the school said that like,
Speaker 2: if he doesn't get medicated, he can't go to school.
Speaker 2: And then a box of pills just arrived and she has,
Speaker 2: you know, the letter and a doctor from three years
Speaker 2: AGO's name on it. So that's like somehow this doctor
Speaker 2: she hadn't seen for three years sent her a letter
Speaker 2: with these pills. She says, I love my son. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't do anything to hurt him. He was going to
Speaker 2: get kicked out of school, and I, you know, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't have a job. And then Sail there's a piece
Speaker 2: of shit here and goes, you gave your kid drugs
Speaker 2: to get to work on time?
Speaker 3: Fuck you? Oh my god, he's cute.
Speaker 2: Everyone said it was okay, and she's like, you know,
Speaker 2: everyone wanted him to do it, and they're like, well,
Speaker 2: why not get a prescription. She's like, I didn't want
Speaker 2: him to get labeled. That follows you for life. And
Speaker 2: one day came home from work and it was on
Speaker 2: the steps. So I gave it to him. And she's
Speaker 2: crying and she's like, I thought no one will know
Speaker 2: and everything will be okay. She's crying even harder. Now.
Speaker 2: This is all so heavy, and I feel like her
Speaker 2: and Becky and Baker from the episode Justice. I hope
Speaker 2: they find a support group together about moms whose fault
Speaker 2: it is so I feel bad. They're just such sad
Speaker 2: moms with such big decisions to make. So Cabot is
Speaker 2: with the squad and you know, on the phone with
Speaker 2: the pharmacy and the pharmacy said the prescription was legitimate
Speaker 2: and it was signed by a real doctor and all
Speaker 2: they did was mail out the medicine. And Craigan's like,
Speaker 2: but is there a crime. Benson goes, I mean it's sleazy.
Speaker 2: Cabot's like, no, it's worse than sleazy. Stabler comes in
Speaker 2: with a poster and a spokesman CEO from this company
Speaker 2: denies that they would do a mail out thing, but
Speaker 2: it's like the letter that was with the pills is
Speaker 2: on the letter head of this drug company. Stabler says
Speaker 2: that their response to that was that this is a
Speaker 2: rogue employer who did this and they're gonna s soon
Speaker 2: be found out.
Speaker 3: So what can we do now?
Speaker 2: So we go talk to the doctor who like is
Speaker 2: on the prescription from years ago. So we go talk
Speaker 2: to him and they're like, well, what's the incentive? And
Speaker 2: I'm guessing it's money. So we're in Chelsea and he says,
Speaker 2: that's my signature, but I didn't write or read the letter.
Speaker 2: And he's like skimming in and sables like, aren't you
Speaker 2: the least bit pissed off someone could do this? And
Speaker 2: he's like, listen, it was part of a marketing thing.
Speaker 2: They said that they would send samples, but only to
Speaker 2: patients who had taken the drug before, and he's like,
Speaker 2: and they asked how many letters did he sign for this?
Speaker 2: And he goes twenty four letters and they're like, well,
Speaker 2: will you share the patientless He's like, oh, I shared it,
Speaker 2: but only those with depression, and Kabit goes well with
Speaker 2: or without their consent, and he goes, no, I didn't
Speaker 2: consult them, and Saber goes, fuck you, I can't believe
Speaker 2: you would do this.
Speaker 3: He goes, listen, I got paid nothing.
Speaker 2: They guaranteed the three month supply of essential drugs for
Speaker 2: the clinic, and most patients here have no insurance, and
Speaker 2: if I don't help them, no one will.
Speaker 3: She's like, whoa fuck, how's the deal?
Speaker 2: You know, how's your deal with the devil going he goes,
Speaker 2: If it helps poor patients that need the medicine that
Speaker 2: can't afford it, I'm fine with it, Like and I'm shocked.
Speaker 2: I didn't expect him to try like that. He was
Speaker 2: trying to be good, yeah, you know, And.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's where they get you, because you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I kind of see why you did it, but it's
Speaker 1: like you would it have been pretty easy also to
Speaker 1: just tell them, Hey, I'm having this sent to you
Speaker 1: and like, what do you want it? Sign a consent form. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's only a few people. It wouldn't have been that hard.
Speaker 3: Damn.
Speaker 2: So he's like Aptrel's also a good drug, Like what
Speaker 2: could have happened? And then he hears what happened and he's,
Speaker 2: you know, upset, So he gives up the pharmacy wrap.
Speaker 2: Jane Wellesley so they go find her and she's like
Speaker 2: fidgeting at the trunk of a luxury station wagon. She
Speaker 2: has boxes and boxes of Aptril and she's like, oh,
Speaker 2: I have nothing to say, and Cabot on Fire, like
Speaker 2: I said in this episode, goes, how do you know
Speaker 2: what we're gonna ask?
Speaker 3: Love it?
Speaker 2: She's like no, no, and they use guilt and like
Speaker 2: what about your kids? We need you to talk and
Speaker 2: she's like we were very careful and and he goes, no,
Speaker 2: people are dead, and her face shows some worry and fear.
Speaker 2: But at the end of it, she goes, I have
Speaker 2: an appointment, like excuse me. So then she but before
Speaker 2: she closes the door, cab It catches her and goes,
Speaker 2: you said we sent it out, so that means the
Speaker 2: company knew what you were doing. It wasn't just you
Speaker 2: deciding to like do this marketing scam. And so she
Speaker 2: zooms off. We see it's a BMW, which is the
Speaker 2: number one car of assholes. I would say, that's my
Speaker 2: that's my opinion, and.
Speaker 1: It's full of salses working its way up. But yeah,
Speaker 1: now it's fucking cyber trucks.
Speaker 2: That is true. That is one hundred percent true. It
Speaker 2: is a cyber truck. So embarrassing. I oh my god,
Speaker 2: oh my god. But she zooms off with you know
Speaker 2: in her beamrah pills Cabot nods, she's gonna bring them down. First,
Speaker 2: she stops at Huang's office for some advice, and she
Speaker 2: thinks that the direct marketing tactics are directly responsible for
Speaker 2: Joey's maname, you know mania, which led to the shooting.
Speaker 2: And this is all fucked and she's like, the trial
Speaker 2: starts tomorrow. I think I'm gonna win and I don't
Speaker 2: want to, and Huan goes, will plead him out. She goes,
Speaker 2: but how's that justice for the two dead boys? And
Speaker 2: he's like, it's not. But you can help Joey, like,
Speaker 2: you know, get him to the psychiatric care that he
Speaker 2: needs and that's actually justice. And Cabot thinks about it,
Speaker 2: and they go to Juvie and she's, you know, has
Speaker 2: a meeting with Barry. Barry does not want to take
Speaker 2: the deal at all. She's trying really hard. Cabot's like, listen,
Speaker 2: just have him plead to guilty to manslaughter and he
Speaker 2: goes to a psychiatric care facility and gets proper treatment.
Speaker 2: He nods, he understands what you know she's saying. And
Speaker 2: they're gonna let the kid decide. And the mom's like, wait,
Speaker 2: we're gonna do this right now, and she starts panicking.
Speaker 2: She's like, I need time to talk to Joey and
Speaker 2: make a decision, but courts tomorrow, like they need to
Speaker 2: make this deal asap. And Joey to his mom's like, no, girl,
Speaker 2: like it's okay, I know, I know what I'm doing.
Speaker 3: I want to get better. She hugs him.
Speaker 2: They all cry, and Cabot's now walking out of her
Speaker 2: office and then knock, knock, knock on the if you
Speaker 2: want me, but it's Fred Thomas and so and Fred
Speaker 2: Thomas and is not happy with this deal. He's like,
Speaker 2: man two for a double murder and he's like, you're
Speaker 2: just letting Barry win. She's like, no, I got new information.
Speaker 2: Corporate greed got involved. And then Fred Thompson, I took
Speaker 2: a photo of this immediately as I was watching it,
Speaker 2: he says, corporate greed is the beating heart of America.
Speaker 3: Alex, Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: When you said this episode is so timely, I wasn't
Speaker 1: even thinking about these implications. I was thinking more of
Speaker 1: just like you know, gun violence in schools. But yes, damn,
Speaker 1: I'm also this is a Luigi coded episode. I'll make
Speaker 1: myself a Luigi bracelet. That's what I'll do for myself.
Speaker 2: I'll say it again, corporate greed is the beating heart
Speaker 2: of America. Alex, Ah, god, it is. That is it?
Speaker 2: It's really corporate greed and racism. Yeah, it's really cool,
Speaker 2: really concise. The show is incredible. We're so looking so prescient,
Speaker 2: like the show like predicts the future. Yeah. So, but
Speaker 2: he wants justice for the two boys, and I do
Speaker 2: understand that. And then he calls her a bleeding heart,
Speaker 2: which is like, Cabo, it's not a bleeding heart.
Speaker 3: She's a prosecutor.
Speaker 2: Like, it's so funny with this nonsense but she he goes,
Speaker 2: this is nonsense, but she does believe in it. She
Speaker 2: thinks they are responsible, this drug company, and he goes, fine,
Speaker 2: then get me justice.
Speaker 3: I don't care how high you have to go.
Speaker 2: I mean, you don't have to tell Alex twice she
Speaker 2: will bust into a boardroom at any at a drop
Speaker 2: of a hat. She goes to find Jane, harasses her
Speaker 2: to come sit down with Joey's mother. Sandra confronts Jane
Speaker 2: and he's like, you said it was safe, and I
Speaker 2: gave it to my son. And she's like, yeah, you
Speaker 2: shouldn't have done that, you know. And they're like, but
Speaker 2: you just you just sent it. There was no warnings nothing.
Speaker 2: The mom is just like upset. She's like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: know what I did wrong. I know what my son
Speaker 2: did wrong, but like your company, you did some of
Speaker 2: you you have to share some of the guilts in this.
Speaker 2: And Jane says, there were clear instructions and you didn't
Speaker 2: follow them. And then it's like, you're a mother, what
Speaker 2: if this was your kids? And how does that feel?
Speaker 2: My kid's on murderer. I don't know why I said
Speaker 2: it in that voice. It was like a.
Speaker 3: Touching scene, but you know, the classic.
Speaker 2: But she begs her like, please, don't you love your children, like,
Speaker 2: don't let that people just like, don't let this company
Speaker 2: destroy anymore lives. This moves Jane. She's teary eyed. I
Speaker 2: can't take Cabot seriously with these bangs. She says you
Speaker 2: Jane says, do what do you want from me? And
Speaker 2: then one of our favorite tropes, well you know what
Speaker 2: she wants. I'm so excited, big business meeting giant, like
Speaker 2: you know, building in the sky of view windows suits.
Speaker 2: I count five women, forty men. And then Stabler is
Speaker 2: like in front, and then Cabot and Benson are flanking
Speaker 2: him in the back and they're walking Charlie's Angel style
Speaker 2: to arrest his ass. And he's like, what is this
Speaker 2: a hostile takeover?
Speaker 3: Lol?
Speaker 2: And they're like, fuck you bitch, and so yeah, they're
Speaker 2: like you sign an okay, this marketing we found evan
Speaker 2: and so yeah. So the mom finally was guilted into
Speaker 2: sharing all of the evidence that showed the company new
Speaker 2: He okayed the marketing plan, he oh, is okay getting
Speaker 2: patient lists, and Stabler is arresting him and I love
Speaker 2: a rich man not being able to talk his way
Speaker 2: out of something and he goes, stop it, you're hurting me.
Speaker 2: And then Cabot walks away and she's like so hot
Speaker 2: and she's like, yeah, like I did that so good,
Speaker 2: dick wolf baby.
Speaker 3: And that is that.
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 1: The sad part is like every time this show does
Speaker 1: give you a little boost of like Sarah Chnin kind
Speaker 1: of whereen when they arrest like a big pharmacy guy
Speaker 1: or whatever. But you know, those fucking guys never go
Speaker 1: to jail, Like, they never ever go to jail. They
Speaker 1: never get purp walked out in the middle of a
Speaker 1: board meeting like we're gonna find out more, but like
Speaker 1: it's just, oh, I want to see it, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't happen.
Speaker 3: And that's why Luigi matters.
Speaker 1: Into his own hands allegedly allegedly alleged him.
Speaker 3: But somebody did. Somebody did when they got that guy.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into the real cases.
Speaker 3: There's a few little cases.
Speaker 2: What there was a story just about the bad wig
Speaker 2: that was that was the true crime of the episode.
Speaker 1: So we'll start in like kind of chronologically in how
Speaker 1: the episode lays out with a school shooting on February
Speaker 1: twenty sixth of nineteen ninety two, fifteen year old Khalil
Speaker 1: Sumpter shot Ian Moore, age seventeen, and Tyrone Sinkler, aged sixteen,
Speaker 1: dead in the hallways of their high school, which was
Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson High School in East New York, which is
Speaker 1: a section of Brooklyn. At this time, guns are running
Speaker 1: rampant on the streets of East New York.
Speaker 3: People are killing people who look at them the wrong way.
Speaker 1: Like it is a bad it's a bad time moment
Speaker 1: in time for this area, and guns are everywhere. On
Speaker 1: the day of the killings, actually about an hour later,
Speaker 1: Mayor David Dinkin was scheduled to visit the school to
Speaker 1: tell the kids to stay.
Speaker 3: Off drugs and stay away from guns. And the hour
Speaker 3: before the shooting happens. What so did the guys, Like,
Speaker 3: did the student here, that's the talk. No, he he
Speaker 3: didn't come.
Speaker 1: They canceled the visit because of this, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: like there was a huge issue at the school, like
Speaker 1: a double homicide.
Speaker 2: And I thought I heard Dinkin's message and said that's
Speaker 2: a like fuck that guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like the like, this is a neighborhood where
Speaker 1: a lot of teens have records. The New York Times
Speaker 1: wrote about the three boys involved. Quote, none of the
Speaker 1: youths qualified as full fledged hoodlums, so I wouldn't use
Speaker 1: that word. That's the Times from the early nineties saying that,
Speaker 1: but all these boys had records, but they were like
Speaker 1: not anything super serious. Like, they had records, but they
Speaker 1: weren't for anything big. The article does also use the
Speaker 1: R words several times, just to take you back to
Speaker 1: where it is about, you know, mental, about people's mental state,
Speaker 1: and then two sentences later they used the word punctilius.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot happening in this article from the
Speaker 1: New York Times. But the victims lived the two victims
Speaker 1: lived in the same housing project, and the shooter, Sumter,
Speaker 1: lived a couple streets away. And the word on the
Speaker 1: street was that the two victims would pick on Sumter
Speaker 1: and intimidate him, but also that Sumter was just a
Speaker 1: quote unquote a punk trying to prove himself, according to
Speaker 1: a witness statement to the Times. But in junior high,
Speaker 1: these guys were all friends in junior high until Tyrone
Speaker 1: and Khalil allegedly tried to rob another kid and then
Speaker 1: when he didn't have any money, they beat him up.
Speaker 1: And then Tyrone got busted for it and Khalil walked,
Speaker 1: So Tyrone assumed that Khalil made a deal and rat
Speaker 1: it on him, but the police confirmed that that's not
Speaker 1: what happened, so but still they became enemies over this.
Speaker 1: So then later, according to other students, the other victim,
Speaker 1: Ian tried to steal a gold nugget bracelet from this
Speaker 1: other kid named Dupree who is Khalil's best friend, and
Speaker 1: the robbery didn't work out, but still setting up Dupree
Speaker 1: and Khalil do not like Tyrone and Ian. The next day,
Speaker 1: Khalil wore the bracelet to taunt Ian and trol him
Speaker 1: about not being able.
Speaker 3: To steal it. So these guys hate each other.
Speaker 1: Ultimately, Khalil was too scared to really start an altercation
Speaker 1: with Tyrone, who was very big, but they'd all they'd
Speaker 1: go all out on harassing Ian, who had recently lost
Speaker 1: a bunch of weight due to an operation, which is
Speaker 1: sad and Khalil claims that in the days leading up
Speaker 1: to the killing, Tyrone threatened him and his family and
Speaker 1: shot at him on the street, but there was never
Speaker 1: any evidence that turned up that Tyrone or Ian had guns.
Speaker 1: And the prosecution thought that Khalil was making up that story.
Speaker 1: He said, after these threats and after being openly shot at,
Speaker 1: allegedly he borrowed a thirty eight, but police said that
Speaker 1: the gun had originally been stolen in nineteen eighty nine
Speaker 1: from an off duty campus police officer at the University
Speaker 1: of Medicine and Dentistry in New Jersey in Plainfield, New Jersey.
Speaker 1: So I don't know how this gun got into his hands,
Speaker 1: but he somehow got it or borrowed it from someone.
Speaker 1: One account says that on the day in question, people
Speaker 1: had told Khalil he was about to get jumped. So
Speaker 1: all of these things are building and building. So when
Speaker 1: he sees these guys in the hallway, he says he
Speaker 1: thought one of them reached into his waistband, and Khalil
Speaker 1: thought he was reaching for a gun, so he shot
Speaker 1: both of them dead. He confested the shooting. He claimed
Speaker 1: he was in fear for his life. He said on
Speaker 1: the stand, I thought my life was in danger. I
Speaker 1: thought I'd suffer serious harm. A jury found him guilty
Speaker 1: of secondary degree murder, but immediately reduced that finding to
Speaker 1: first degree manslaughter, which these kind of reductions can happen
Speaker 1: when a jury finds that while the killing was intentional,
Speaker 1: which is a definition of second degree murder, the actions
Speaker 1: were carried out with a mitigating circumstance quote unquote. So
Speaker 1: in this case, they're calling the mitigating circumstance extreme emotional distress.
Speaker 1: So when he addressed the judge, Sumpter said, I didn't
Speaker 1: do this out of hate.
Speaker 3: I was pushed into it.
Speaker 1: So he was facing a max of three and a
Speaker 1: third years to ten years each for each of the
Speaker 1: two manslaughter convictions, and he would have gotten nine to
Speaker 1: life for each if he had it, if they hadn't
Speaker 1: immediately lowered the charge to manslaughter.
Speaker 3: He did get the max.
Speaker 1: He got six and two thirds years to twenty years
Speaker 1: in prison, which is the longest possible term for someone
Speaker 1: guilty of two counts of manslaughter committed at the age
Speaker 1: of fifteen. So I don't know when he got out.
Speaker 1: I mean, this happened in the nineties, so he would
Speaker 1: have gone out already. But I looked him up in
Speaker 1: the I looked his name up in the Uh maybe
Speaker 1: his name is somehow changed in these because he's only fifteen.
Speaker 3: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: But he's not in the inmate look up even though
Speaker 1: they have people that have left. So I don't know
Speaker 1: why I couldn't find him in the inmate look up.
Speaker 1: But he's out now he should be, so that I wonder.
Speaker 2: Because he's a juvenile, doesn't SV like those records get
Speaker 2: expunged or like yeah, or you can't follow along or
Speaker 2: they get sealed.
Speaker 3: But that's also just from episodes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he also does go to prison, so I
Speaker 1: wonder if they tried him as an adult, like he
Speaker 1: doesn't go to a juvenile facility. I don't know, I
Speaker 1: have no idea, but that just is like where they
Speaker 1: drew some of the bar getting the gun because the
Speaker 1: kids are making, you know, like the storyline at the beginning.
Speaker 1: Then they obviously referenced Columbine directly, which occurred in April
Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety nine and is one of the most
Speaker 1: infamous school shootings in US history. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: go super in depth about what happened at Columbine. I
Speaker 1: feel like everybody knows the story, sadly, it's been replicated
Speaker 1: hundreds of times since. But essentially what happened was that
Speaker 1: two high school seniors in Columbine, Colorado, Eric Harris and
Speaker 1: Dylan Klebold murdered twelve students and one teacher and then
Speaker 1: took their own lives. They planned the massacre for a
Speaker 1: year before they did it. One thing I didn't know
Speaker 1: about that was that they actually had planned a bunch
Speaker 1: of bombs and then they wanted it to be a bombing,
Speaker 1: but all their bombs failed to detonate, so then they
Speaker 1: went on with a school shooting. So it sparked copycat killings,
Speaker 1: which are now called the Columbine effect. One connection to
Speaker 1: this episode is the fact that one of the shooters,
Speaker 1: Eric Harris, was on a psychiatric drug called Louvox at
Speaker 1: the time of the murders. The drug is an SSRI,
Speaker 1: which stands for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, which was prescribed
Speaker 1: which is used to prescribe obsessive compulsive disorder, and then
Speaker 1: it says and associated depression. But when you look up louvox,
Speaker 1: it's mostly prescribed for OCD. It's in the same pharmacological
Speaker 1: category as prozac, zoloft, and pacsil. According to the Washington Post,
Speaker 1: which by the way, I had to go on Reddit
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to hop the paywall of
Speaker 1: Washington Post and I literally was in Java script doing commands,
Speaker 1: and I want you all to know how far I
Speaker 1: went to get not pay for the Washington Post, but
Speaker 1: to give you this information.
Speaker 3: Thank you for your service.
Speaker 1: They were You're welcome, but they were one of the
Speaker 1: only places that had like a specific article about the
Speaker 1: medication that this kid was on. So according to the
Speaker 1: Washington Post, quote it's praised by health professionals as an
Speaker 1: important tool in the treatment of an inherited disorder end quote,
Speaker 1: it's supposed to help curb recurring in irrational thoughts, impulses, images,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the symptoms of OCD. The
Speaker 1: company that made it was called Solve Pharmaceuticals. They said
Speaker 1: that six point nine million patients of all ages worldwide
Speaker 1: have used it, and some people in the article are
Speaker 1: that they interview even call it a miracle drug. Even
Speaker 1: though suicidal ideation was listed as a possible side effect,
Speaker 1: private practitioners and the manufacturer that said that occurrences like
Speaker 1: that are rare and likely to be caused by underlying depression,
Speaker 1: and a report released by the US Agency for Healthcare
Speaker 1: Policy and Research stated that there hadn't been enough research
Speaker 1: on whether SSRIs are effective in treating depressed children and
Speaker 1: adolescents and mildly depressed adults. Studies before Louvox came out
Speaker 1: said that the drug triggered mania in one percent of cases,
Speaker 1: but it was also then clarified that those were people
Speaker 1: who actually had bipolar effective disorder, in which there are
Speaker 1: swings between high highs and lows, you know, like agitated
Speaker 1: moods and depressions. So that's I don't know, that's some
Speaker 1: facts on louvox. There's no nothing conclusive really about whether
Speaker 1: it affected the Columbine shooter. Some people apparently had issues
Speaker 1: trying to get off the drug that would make thoughts
Speaker 1: of suicide come up, and then as soon as they
Speaker 1: got back on the drug, those thoughts would stop.
Speaker 3: Jerry L.
Speaker 1: Russian, a University of North Carolina pediatrician who studies serotonin drugs,
Speaker 1: told The Washington Posts that patients who stopped taking the
Speaker 1: drugs typically experience withdrawals, including agitation and anxiety, but didn't
Speaker 1: get into whether it was, you know, a suicidal ideation
Speaker 1: was a huge part of the withdrawal. But there were
Speaker 1: reports that Eric Harris, the Columbine shooter, had tried to
Speaker 1: stop taking Louvox because the Marines had rejected him for
Speaker 1: being on it, like the Marines had said, like, we can't,
Speaker 1: you can't be on like a psychotropic drug. But the
Speaker 1: FDA has found no evidence that it's linked to violence,
Speaker 1: and Louvox has increasingly been prescribed to adolescents, but critics
Speaker 1: say that more trials and testing need to be done
Speaker 1: to understand the side effects on that age group. So
Speaker 1: here's another interesting connection is the case of there's a
Speaker 1: lawsuit was filed in nineteen ninety six called Franklin versus
Speaker 1: Park Davis. So doctor David Franklin was a whistleblower who
Speaker 1: blew the whistle on what he believed to be Park
Speaker 1: Davis's illegal marketing practices in connection with sales of the
Speaker 1: drug neurontin.
Speaker 3: I hope I'm saying that right.
Speaker 1: Neurontin, and which Park Davis, by the way, is now Pfizer,
Speaker 1: So I don't know, but it's Pfizer now. So Neuronton
Speaker 1: was an FDA approved secondary course of treatment for epilepsy.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's an epilepsy drug.
Speaker 1: But uh oh, capitalism is the beating heart of America.
Speaker 1: It's not making enough money as an epilepsy drug. We
Speaker 1: don't have enough people with epilepsy or whatever. It's not
Speaker 1: making enough money, so they're like, let's promote it for
Speaker 1: additional indications, like for additional medical layeds.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So the drug was not.
Speaker 1: A few party that knew that I actually really am
Speaker 1: I was just looking up what that was, which is
Speaker 1: not illegal. It's not illegal to prescribe off label. I
Speaker 1: didn't know that. So the drug was not approved by
Speaker 1: the FDA for any of these things, and there was
Speaker 1: little to no evidence that it even helped these things.
Speaker 1: But they started prescribing it for migraines, bipolar add they
Speaker 1: ignored studies that claimed that said that it really didn't
Speaker 1: do much, and in the case of bipolar disorder, no
Speaker 1: study has actually ever shown that it had a benefit
Speaker 1: over the placebo. So like there's no like some people say, oh,
Speaker 1: I might have helped a little bit with migraines or whatever,
Speaker 1: but like nothing for the bipolar, which is you know
Speaker 1: where I would say more spheres of depression and stuff
Speaker 1: were coming in. So doctor Franklin was hired to conduct
Speaker 1: marketing of the drug, and he found that this pharmaceutical
Speaker 1: company was paying doctors for like illegal kickbacks for prescribing it,
Speaker 1: including expensive meals like stays at luxury resorts cash. I mean,
Speaker 1: we got this nice doctor in this episode who's getting
Speaker 1: paid with drugs for his clinic, which you know obviously
Speaker 1: makes you so unrealistic. Yeah, but this is like they're
Speaker 1: just literally giving doctor. I mean, I worked at my
Speaker 1: mom's office and pharmaceutical reps brought in lunch all the time, Like,
Speaker 1: and they're in, they're bringing you sandwiches. You're like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I guess I love flow vent. Now they're
Speaker 1: giving me, you know, like a nice rap sandwich. But
Speaker 1: of course, doctors who have an oath, who've taken hippocratic
Speaker 1: oath are not usually giving out prescriptions to shit because
Speaker 1: they got free sandwiches or vacations.
Speaker 3: But I guess some of these doctors were.
Speaker 1: Park Davis had hired ad agencies and marketing firms to
Speaker 1: write articles about, oh sorry, gabapentin is also the name
Speaker 1: of this drug. So they had hired marketing firms and
Speaker 1: ad agencies to write these articles about Wow, You're gonna
Speaker 1: love gabapentin, and then recruited physicians and paid them to
Speaker 1: sign their names on the articles. Even though they were
Speaker 1: ghost written by probably people that aren't even medical professionals.
Speaker 1: And so, according to Franklin, a case report stated that
Speaker 1: neuratonin had made a child's attention deficit order worse, and
Speaker 1: his supervisors dismissed the report and that was a part
Speaker 1: of his key decision to leave the Park Davis after
Speaker 1: only working there for four months. And he actually said
Speaker 1: that a supervisor told him, your career is going to
Speaker 1: get fucked if you keep raising problems about this, and
Speaker 1: that's what prompted him to quit. And he filed this lawsuit,
Speaker 1: and I, you know, a lot of this stuff is
Speaker 1: like very hard.
Speaker 3: To like a lot of this. When I was reading
Speaker 3: these articles about this, I was like, what is going on?
Speaker 1: But I think the summary judgment was thrown out and
Speaker 1: it was settled.
Speaker 3: It was settled.
Speaker 1: And how much he got four hundred and thirty million
Speaker 1: dollars to resolve criminal and civil liability related to the
Speaker 1: off label promotion of narontan.
Speaker 3: I don't know if.
Speaker 1: He got that or if that was, but it was
Speaker 1: it was like they had they had violated the False
Speaker 1: Claims Act. So there's a lot of like medical health
Speaker 1: insurance mombo jumbo in this that I could don't really
Speaker 1: sift through, but I think I gave you, like the
Speaker 1: basic you know, the part of this that they drew
Speaker 1: from was like the pharmaceutical companies acting shady and trying
Speaker 1: to make more money on medications.
Speaker 2: I was just like, why can't it be enough, like
Speaker 2: the greed, Like I just can't believe it's that crazy.
Speaker 3: I know, I know it's really bad.
Speaker 1: And yeah, as you like so ahead of the time,
Speaker 1: like that is so fuck that, like kids could get
Speaker 1: better with therapy, and they're just like, no, medications are
Speaker 1: way easier than us paying like expensive therapists for years
Speaker 1: on end, you know, like they have no.
Speaker 3: There's no depths to their depravity. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well we don't have a guest for this one,
Speaker 1: so we can just move on to recapping how depressing
Speaker 1: this talking.
Speaker 3: About or are we just dug about Luigi? All right?
Speaker 3: So obviously, I.
Speaker 2: Mean so timely. Can you fucking imagine we're doing making
Speaker 2: manic that's crazy, I know, crazy in the scope of
Speaker 2: you know, in the world of Luigi. Yeah, but they're
Speaker 2: suppressing the shit out of the story and everyone thinks
Speaker 2: that I'm being crazy, and I'm just like, you don't
Speaker 2: like this is the case, Like this is such a
Speaker 2: big case. The fact that it's not in the news
Speaker 2: cycle is crazy. Why is like I don't understand.
Speaker 1: Like I'm like, I'm wondering if it's like, Okay, it
Speaker 1: absolutely could be like suppression on purpose. It's also like
Speaker 1: is it one of those things where like we research
Speaker 1: some of these murders that happened like at the same
Speaker 1: time as Scott Peterson was happening, so they got eclipsed,
Speaker 1: Like is it everything that's happening with the world is
Speaker 1: just like eclipsing the Luigi stuff, Like I know, because
Speaker 1: we're still talking about Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's it's like, no, there's room
Speaker 1: for everything. This is like that's true.
Speaker 2: This is like specific purposeful suppression.
Speaker 3: And I'm scared they're gonna like do.
Speaker 2: A gag order or something for the case, like that
Speaker 2: would be terrible. Yeah, but we just need to move
Speaker 2: forward to it. And the thing is like all the
Speaker 2: like Luigi instagram's are just like I want to know
Speaker 2: what maniacs like I do think I'm one of the
Speaker 2: more normal of the Luigi.
Speaker 3: Heads, and like the edits are creepy.
Speaker 2: The edits are weird and it's like, I don't want
Speaker 2: to see a Science Fare photos from seventeen. I'm like,
Speaker 2: this is weird. I'm like, you guys are weird. Shit
Speaker 2: stop you know, yeah, but maybe they're keeping quiet well,
Speaker 2: so I'm gonna just request her. The attorney is on
Speaker 2: Instagram as a private account, like, do you think Karen
Speaker 2: will follow?
Speaker 3: Let me follow her?
Speaker 2: I mean, I wish that they didn't change blue check marks.
Speaker 3: It fucking pisses me off.
Speaker 2: Are like I used to actually mean something so like
Speaker 2: it would be make you credible, and now it doesn't.
Speaker 3: And that's like so fucking annoying. It's crazy.
Speaker 1: I didn't think Instagram was gonna do it, but Zuckerberg's
Speaker 1: doing everything Elon does now, so bye bye confirming.
Speaker 3: Your identity asers.
Speaker 2: The only thing I would say about everything is like,
Speaker 2: I'm at the I'm at these things comics like I
Speaker 2: posted this on my stories too, but like, what happened
Speaker 2: to being punk rock?
Speaker 3: What happened?
Speaker 2: Really fucking saying something like I'm so sick of these
Speaker 2: dudes going on stage towing the like making these like
Speaker 2: both sides. There was a fucking comic that went on
Speaker 2: stage and did abortion material. I was like, well, you know,
Speaker 2: it is taking a life, which I'm not. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: are you fucking kidding me? I'm gonna confront and be like,
Speaker 2: you know, shouldn't be saying this shit on stage, like
Speaker 2: our rights are being taken away. And what's crazy is
Speaker 2: I was. I got into a fucking debate. I couldn't
Speaker 2: even believe it. This guy was like, well, why don't
Speaker 2: we have Black History Months? Shouldn't exist? And this person's black,
Speaker 2: so it's like really hard to like or you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, Yeah, but they're a troll. Like everyone
Speaker 2: was like, that person's a troll, Like he just want
Speaker 2: you know whatever, and he goes, well, Morgan Freeman said,
Speaker 2: why isn't there like a Jewish his stream month and
Speaker 2: there's a black when he's like, I didn't realize that
Speaker 2: was inferior to any of my friends, and then my
Speaker 2: friends felt bad, and he's I'm like, I don't think
Speaker 2: Black History Month is teaching black people they're inferior. I
Speaker 2: think it's the point is to teach that they were
Speaker 2: treated very badly, like white people should understand the history.
Speaker 2: I'm like, it's just history that is being suppressed and
Speaker 2: I go, there isn't a Jewish History Month here because
Speaker 2: Jews have not been like discriminated against hugely in.
Speaker 3: Our society like in America.
Speaker 2: In America, I'm like, it would be weird, and he
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I didn't even think about that.
Speaker 3: So I did feel good that. I was like, what
Speaker 3: are you talking about?
Speaker 2: But it is like if that's your experience as a
Speaker 2: black person, like I it's just because you know about
Speaker 2: my Special. I was like talking to George Sivus about
Speaker 2: this and it was on their podcast.
Speaker 3: But like I was like, you know, Netflix, as a joke.
Speaker 2: I wanted to call my Special dumb bitch and they're
Speaker 2: like that actually slays and is so funny and it
Speaker 2: would catch attention. I go, no, I know, but like
Speaker 2: I can't call myself a dumb bitch in this world,
Speaker 2: Like it's not fun anymore. Like if everything was fine,
Speaker 2: it's fine, but I can't like go on and be like,
Speaker 2: oh look, I'm a dumb bitch because that and he goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: you can't be like ironic or silly anymore because things
Speaker 2: are so tense, Like you can't really take back all
Speaker 2: these words because they are so real right now, Yeah,
Speaker 2: like you have to fucking be above it, like you
Speaker 2: have like flick these motherfuckers off, you know, Like I
Speaker 2: there was a comic doing a joke about how the
Speaker 2: people on January sixth are disgusting, like to just unleash
Speaker 2: these disgusting people who murdered like employees and went into
Speaker 2: a capitol and off stage a woman went up to
Speaker 2: him and was like, fuck you, I uhould be ashamed,
Speaker 2: like starting to fight with him.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like things are serious and it's everywhere, and I
Speaker 2: just can't believe you would go on stage and like, well,
Speaker 2: Biden's old.
Speaker 3: To fuck you.
Speaker 2: There's Nazis, there's highlers, like fuck you. Comedy used to
Speaker 2: be so fucking cool and like fuck the system, and
Speaker 2: now it's just like these complicit, fucking losers, and I'm
Speaker 2: disgusted with the people I perfer around.
Speaker 3: Yeah, comedy used to be too bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Richard Pryor fucking on crack sucking dick, that's what
Speaker 2: I miss.
Speaker 3: We still have.
Speaker 4: We have you.
Speaker 1: Okay, So this is fucked up and obviously very fucked
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, the woman's so relevant, it's
Speaker 1: still relevant.
Speaker 3: But also the woman in the episode.
Speaker 2: Oh you know, how I know the woman in the episode.
Speaker 2: She's on fucking Broadway right now, she's in Cult of Love.
Speaker 3: Oh May wading you? Yes? I was like, why do
Speaker 3: I know her face? Fuck?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but you know I don't love her just
Speaker 1: giving her kid a medication that a doctor hasn't talked
Speaker 1: to her about, but this is it's.
Speaker 2: Baloney, making her feel bad. Oh you didn't want to
Speaker 2: lose your job? Are you fucking crazy? So Gracey? Men
Speaker 2: just leaving families. Men need to be fucking If you
Speaker 2: leave your family and you do not financially or like
Speaker 2: presently support your family, you should be in prison.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Men should be in prison if you don't take
Speaker 3: her or like yeah, or you work it off.
Speaker 1: You work it off in a labor camp and the
Speaker 1: money goes to your your wife and.
Speaker 2: He gets just leave and she needs to take care
Speaker 2: of this wild kid and and then I don't know,
Speaker 2: but I felt for her when she goes.
Speaker 3: I mean, what could go wrong? Cries Thank God? Life
Speaker 3: is so hard for so many people. Yeah. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: it still.
Speaker 2: Is to not be able to afford medication for your
Speaker 2: to like finally get therapy and try to help your kid,
Speaker 2: and you can't afford it.
Speaker 3: The fuck is that? Let's get into what would Sister
Speaker 3: peg Do?
Speaker 1: This is our weekly segment where we try to give
Speaker 1: you more information about the topics that we're broached in
Speaker 1: today's episode. And today we'd like to point you to
Speaker 1: Brady United Against Gun Violence. This is the oldest gun
Speaker 1: violence prevention group. It is founded and led by survivors
Speaker 1: of gun violence, and they have a three point strategy
Speaker 1: of policy reform, industry oversight, and actively changing gun culture
Speaker 1: in the country. So for more information on that or
Speaker 1: to donate, you can go to Bradyunited dot org. That
Speaker 1: will be of course in a story the day that
Speaker 1: our episode comes out and saved forever in our WWSPD
Speaker 1: highlight on our Instagram, which is that messed up pod?
Speaker 1: Also in our show notes or what with Sister peg?
Speaker 1: Dos are always in our show notes. You can click
Speaker 1: there for links and uh yeah and.
Speaker 2: Yeah and the next week's episode and we recorded it.
Speaker 3: I know we did. I have no recollection what this is,
Speaker 3: but we did.
Speaker 2: Solving for the Unknowns Season twenty one, episode nineteen. Join
Speaker 2: us because I'll find out what we did. You'll find
Speaker 2: out what we did. It'll be perfect.
Speaker 3: Thank you guys. So much for listening. We'll see you
Speaker 3: next week. Bye.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
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Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
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Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
Speaker 2: and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and.
Speaker 1: To our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner,
Speaker 1: and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly
Speaker 1: Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive
Speaker 1: producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at
Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 3: Dun Dun