1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: All the media, Hello and welcomed. It could happen here, 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: and it could. My name is antress Age. I'm also 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: ANTWRESSM on YouTube, and I'm here once again. 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 2: With James James Stout. People said I'd never say my 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: last name. 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 3: And they can't work out who I am, so I 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 3: guess I'll do that more. 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: Welcome James Stout. Thank you so ically. And I mean, 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: this is an unfortunately common pattern of thought for me, 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: but I've been thinking about just how totalizing this system feels. 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: And it's like everywhere you turn, you know, walking down 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: the street, look at the city, a pollution that every 13 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: inch of land there's been claimed by the system, every 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: bit of you know, the way you live and operate 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: just feels like it's been manipulated and controlled in some way. 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: And so that's really what I want to highlight in 17 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: today's episode, the infrastructure of this system and how it's 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: used to control, you know, both in terms of the 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: physical infrastructure and the digital infrastructure of our lives. So 20 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: I suppose to start off, I'd ask, when was the 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: last time that you noticed infrastructure shape in your choices? 22 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: That's interesting, I mean a lot in certain ways, right, 23 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: like like the infrastructure of labor shapes a lot of 24 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 2: my choices, Like I have to work a lot to 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: make ends meet, right like, which means I can't do 26 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: sometimes things I want to do, Like there are mutual 27 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: aid efforts I'd like to participate in more that I'm 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 2: not able to because I have this obligation to capital. 29 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 3: Mm hmm, I guess that's one of them. 30 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: Or just like the physical infrastructure limiting the people I 31 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: get to see, right, Like, there are places I love 32 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: to go out there with some really nice vegan places 33 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: in Tijuana that I don't go to as much as 34 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: i'd like because someone has built a giant wall and 35 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: then another giant war next to it, and then stationed 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: a bunch of people with guns to check if I 37 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: have the right piece of paper to go back and 38 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: forth to somewhere that otherwise I could ride my bike to. 39 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, borders are very unfortunate and big one. Yeah, it's 40 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: really frustrating, And I think that's one of the most 41 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: obviously detrimental aspects of physical infrastructure that to de manipulate 42 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: our lives today. I think on the digital level, there's 43 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: things like just the way that social media is laid out. 44 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: I think it really controls like how much time you 45 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: spend on it, how much energy you invest in it. 46 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: And of course even just our neighborhoods, our environments, our cities. 47 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: They laid out, it tends to affect, you know, just 48 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: how often we go out, where we go, what needs 49 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: a transportation we use, and I mean with physical infrastructures concerned, 50 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: and how it's been used to control people. That goes 51 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: way back into history. You know, coloneal powers often built 52 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: transport infrastructure, you know, like roads and railways and ports 53 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: with the very explicit purpose of extracting raw materials from 54 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: the colonized territories to get to the imperial core. You know, 55 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: the systems were not designed to say over the mobility 56 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: needs of the local populations. They usually create a direct 57 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: line from the mines and the plantations and the resource 58 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: rich areas to the coastal ports where they could be exported. 59 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 60 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so for the British and perialists and lovers 61 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: of empire, they often brag that, you know, we built ports, 62 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: and we built bridges, and we built roads, and we 63 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: built railway as well. It's the same pattern everywhere. You know, 64 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: in India it was used to move cotton, tea and 65 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: other resources from the interior to the ship. In ports 66 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: in Ghana, it was used to move gold and coco. 67 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: In any case, it wasn't to interconnect within the city, 68 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: you know, the actual economic subtermination of the people in 69 00:03:58,360 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: that area. It didn't matter. 70 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: I think about this, like, I cycled around Rwanda in 71 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, which is an interesting time to be traveling, 72 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: but I remember riding around them. The kny Rwanda word 73 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: for dirt road is iqitaka, right, and so that's what 74 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: mostly So we cycled on these dirt roads. 75 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 3: It was lovely, you know. 76 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: We'd go through the village and everyone would come out 77 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: and wave at you, and like the little kids would 78 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: come out and be like, what the fuck is this bicycle? 79 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 2: And it was kind of fun, you know. And then 80 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: we'd find someone. It's not really set up for like restaurants, 81 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: so you just find someone and pay them an amount 82 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: upon which you agreed and they would give you some 83 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: food and that was a beautiful experience. And then there 84 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: are these roads that they call Chinese roads that just 85 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: go directly from the mind to the place where the 86 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: raw material can be extracted. Because between the China was 87 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 2: doing a lot of what you could generously call foreign 88 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: direct investment or like neo colonialism in lots of places 89 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: in Africa, right, And it was the contrast between those 90 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: two traveling experiences was so profound, Like we obviously you 91 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 2: travel faster on the smooth roads, but like you don't 92 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: immerse yourself in the human experience of meeting and sharing 93 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: that travel with people, which is why I do these 94 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 2: things in the first place. With just like such a 95 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: profound contrast. I remember it really striking me at the time. 96 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and this is what empires and rulers 97 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: in general have been doing, right. They they wield their 98 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: control over labor to set things up in a way 99 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: that fulfills their interests. Yeah. And then you know, even 100 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: when people key in some sort of nominal independence and 101 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: they inherit these clonial infrastructure grids or you know, they 102 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: have investments coming in and they have set up they 103 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,119 Speaker 1: have these companies, it's a multinational companies setting up infrastructure. 104 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: It still continues, you know, this sort of extractivist and 105 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: top down nature of the way the infrastructure is set up. 106 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't remain all of them. Don't reimagine 107 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: the logic of what came before. You're in part for 108 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: lack of funding and in part for lack of imagination, 109 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: and so in a lot of places, the peripheral regions 110 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: in these countries are still lacking in connectivity, They're still 111 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: lacking behind the rest of the country. They still don't 112 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: have access to some of the basic social services and 113 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: resources that the urban core has. Because you know, the 114 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: urban rural divide in many ways mimics the corporate free 115 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: divide on the international stage. And then you have these 116 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: neo colonial development aid programs coming in with the IMF 117 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: for the World Bank, and you have even more infrastructure projects. 118 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: So just repeat this extractive pattern under the ban of development. 119 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: Of course, real development would be connecting people, encouraging people 120 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: to participate in society and distribute opportunity. But the infrastructure 121 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: tends to be set up as more so for consolidating 122 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: state power and channeling the movement of people in predictable, 123 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: survailable ways, and prioritizing access for certain populations while excluding 124 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: or marginalizing others. So, of course, infrastructure development has the 125 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: capacity to help people. You know, it can increase accessibility, 126 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: can make people's lives easier, and it can also just 127 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: manage and contain them and varied sources, and we see 128 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: a lot more examples of this sort of infrastructure control. 129 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: When you look at the class and racial dynamic within societies, 130 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: those sorts of divisions and separations and stratifications, they of 131 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: course manifest physically. You know, in the US you had 132 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: literal segregation areas that were designated for black people listening 133 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: for white people, water fountains and neighborhoods and all these 134 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: different things. You also had redline in policy years, and 135 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: nowadays you have spaces that were redlined and thus lacked investment, 136 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: and thus when neglected infrastructurally due to that racial and 137 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: economic inequality, those spaces are now right for development in 138 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: the form of gentrification because the property is so cheap, 139 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: so undervalued, and so the people who made something out 140 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: of that lack are are being pushed out. And in 141 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: South Africa, I mean up until recently, these are partid 142 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: era policies created townships that were deliberately located far from 143 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: white urban centers. There were lacking and services and transit 144 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: options that physically reinforced the racial division of that society. 145 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: And even today around the world you have urban zoning 146 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: laws and transit access limitations and public housing policies that 147 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: recreate historical class divisions and racial divisions, ethnic divisions. And 148 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure you and your oh, with all of the 149 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: I mean, every time I talked to you have like 150 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: a new travel story to tell. I'm sure you've witnessed 151 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: something like this. 152 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just thinking of how like I was 153 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: thinking of, like if we think about the Syrian state 154 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: as a contiguous colony, right, Like it's called the Syrian 155 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 2: Arab Republic, but not all the people who are contained 156 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 2: within the territory in which it once claimed the monopoly 157 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: on violence are Arab people. So we think of the 158 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: parts of North and East Syria, majority Kurdish areas, as colonized. 159 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: We can see that reflected in the infrastructure. 160 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 3: Right. 161 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: Part of that is, as you say, this sort of 162 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: lack of investment, But then also part of it is 163 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: every government funded building, right, schools, hospitals, the buildings you 164 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 2: go in to do the paperwork you have to do 165 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: to exist under the state. They're set up like strong points, 166 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: like they're designed with a big kind of war and 167 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 2: then a big courtyard and then thickias like they're designed 168 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 2: to be militarily defensible against the people they're supposed to serve, right, 169 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: Like the school is designed to be used as a 170 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 2: fucking machine gun position, and once you see it, you 171 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: see it everywhere, and you think about the nature of 172 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: the state that designs infrastructure with that explicitly in mind, Right, 173 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: it's fascinating. The other example I think of is like 174 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 2: Chris Elam's done some fantastic writing on the development of Barcelona, 175 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: and you have like the unregulated working class of Raval, 176 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: like this area just next to the Rambler, where the 177 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 2: streets are just fucking small and winding and crazy and 178 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: there's never not laundry kind of over you know, over 179 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 2: your head, and it's a very I like to go there. 180 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 3: It's a place that I enjoy. 181 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 2: And then you have the ijumpler, which means extension, where 182 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: the infrastructure is extremely like it's probably one of the 183 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: earlier grid cities that you would see, right. And the 184 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: idea was that like these these over crowd they'd kind 185 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: of what were in the nineteen twenties and thirty slums 186 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: would be like where the working class would be kept 187 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: and the working class, to be clear, were seen as 188 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 2: there was a colonial relationship between the boys who are 189 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: and the working class in Barcelona, because most of the 190 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: working class were not Catalan, they would actually put signs 191 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: at the top of these working class areas saying like 192 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: Mutia begins here, right, these are the mutianos and people 193 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: from Mussia, the people from outside of Catalonia. Catalonia stops 194 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 2: here where the working class exist. That later reflected in 195 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: the working class self identity, like it came to refer 196 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: to the raval as Chinatown, not specifically because of a 197 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: high concentration of people from the Chinese diaspora, but because 198 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 2: they'd seen Chicago gangster movies where Chinatown was like the 199 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: area where the gangsters were, and they were like, yeah, 200 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: we're fucking gangster, Like we're going to call it Chinatown. 201 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 3: That you want to come in here, will fucking shoot you. 202 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: Like I thought that was really fascinating, like response to 203 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 2: the way that have been alienated by infrastructure. 204 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and that's why when you when you 205 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: look at the sort of claims that oh, you know, 206 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: it's just it's just roads, it's just the zoning, it's 207 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: just a city grid, it's just an embassy, it's just 208 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: a government office, it's like, no, these sorts of spaces, 209 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: these buildings, this infrastructure could never be neutral. Yeah, and 210 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: when you see that, you can't unsee it because you 211 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: look at the amount of decisions it would have had 212 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: to have gone into, you know, some of the examples 213 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: you mentioned or the examples I mentioned, you know, the 214 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: design decisions. It's like, Okay, we're going to put this 215 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: road here instead of here. Yeah, we're going to use 216 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: this material instead of this material. Who you employ to 217 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: build those structures, that infrastructure or also has an impact in 218 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: this surrounding area? Are you employing people within the community, 219 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: employing people outside? What's happening there? Who's funding this infrastructure, 220 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,479 Speaker 1: who's maintaining the infrastructure? 221 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 3: Yeah? 222 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: What level of Seville LUNs has been implemented? Where are 223 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: the public transportation routes and why they're here and not there? 224 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, exactly, Like there's people whose opinions and 225 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: views matter in that process, and there are people who 226 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 2: are excluded from it. 227 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: Exactly. 228 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 229 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: One of the authors I tend to go back too 230 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: often is he vandalist because he critics a lot of 231 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: this stuff, so particularly infrastructure's control and tools. Look in viviality. 232 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: He spoke about how modern transport and urban design have 233 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: been used to alienate people from their own bodies and communities. 234 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 1: So you call all the usual suspects suburbanization and car 235 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: centric infrastructure, how it isolates people and increases dependence on vehicles. 236 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: And he called this dependence a radical monopoly because all 237 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: the other choices have effectively been eliminated. Technically, you could 238 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: walk along the highway, but you're not going to You're 239 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: going to get a cut, right, you can't choose to 240 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: walk a cycle, and that sort of scenario of. 241 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,319 Speaker 3: Film's going to call the cops that you try that 242 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: in America, right. 243 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, So as a lich sor it, it's really a 244 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: cultural imposition that shapes how we end up living, interacting, moving, 245 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: and it's frustrating. On the global stage, you also see 246 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: how infrastructure has the capacity to control the whole geopolitical board. 247 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: You know, the Suez Canal, the Panama Canal, the Red Sea, 248 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: the Straight orfor moves, all these places have a lot 249 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: of power militarily, trade wise, dlematically because they control the 250 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: flow of oil or of goods or of data. Yeah, 251 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: particularly in the areas where the undersea internet cables run 252 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: and so speaking of data. Actually, the realm of digital 253 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: infrastructure is also very insiguous when it comes to control. 254 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: We tend to think of the Internet as that sort 255 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: of ephemeral cloud, right, But the cloud is hosted physically. 256 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: You know, there are sofas, there are fiber optic cables, 257 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: the air data centers, all these things. They're not as 258 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: obvious as roads and railways and you know, neighborhoods, but 259 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: they are just as if not in some ways even 260 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: more powerful in terms of controlling what people access, how 261 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: fast they access it, under what terms they access it, 262 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: or because it's so intangible it's so hard to pin down, 263 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: it can often escape scrutiny. But there are companies that 264 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: own these things. There's a small group of very powerful 265 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: corporations that pretty much dictate how things are in it. 266 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: You know, most people they know about China's Grade Firal 267 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: and how it's used to coordin off China from the 268 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: rest of the Internet in some ways. You know, its sensors, 269 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: websites and sweet results. It monitors people's activity, and it 270 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: usually has these state monitored alternatives to some of the 271 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: popular global platforms like Google and Base. Right, But Google 272 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: and Amazon and Meta and Microsoft it's not like they're 273 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: any better. You know, the dot run and things Republic 274 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: could so if you will call out what China's doing 275 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: with the with the Great Firewall, and I agree, I 276 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: don't think that any government should have any control over 277 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: what people access. But you know, it's not like censorship, 278 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: data harvested and surveillance are unique to China. You know, 279 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: a lot of other governments, in collaboration with these companies, 280 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: deploy soft censorship. You know, they de rank things in 281 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: the algorithm, they filter certain keywords, they selectively block certain things. Yeah, 282 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: things are maybe automatically flagged or moderated, and that often 283 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: affects people from the LGBTQ community in countries where you 284 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: know that's that's a big no no. Or you have 285 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: even the manipulation of language they will people use as 286 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: people try to get around censors. Hence the proliferation of 287 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: terms like great and essay and self delete and unlive 288 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: and all these other euphemisms, which I mean, honest, I 289 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: don't use any of them, and I despise them. 290 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, me too. 291 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: The thing is a lot of people assume that these 292 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: words are censored and all platforms, but they're not. You know, 293 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: they may be censored on one platform, usually it's TikTok 294 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: or limited in one platform. And then if people take 295 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: that sort of TikTok sort of way of speaking and 296 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: spread it across the rest of the Internet, or worse yet, 297 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: bring it into real life and end up saying things 298 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 1: like un alive in real life. Yeah. 299 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, everything you have allowed fucking TikTok's algorithm to determine 300 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 2: the way you can express yourself. 301 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly, And I mean TikTok has a lot of 302 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: heat these days because you know, rightfully, so it's very popular, 303 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: it has a lot of influence, and it's you know, 304 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: very bleatantly interventionist with its content in some damage and Wiz. 305 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: But again, the other big cooperations are not immune either. 306 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: I mean, Facebook was famously found culpable for genocide, right, Yeah, 307 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: They've played a major role in the sort of attitudes 308 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: that were developing and the marginalization that was sort of 309 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: Targetinghinger community and the subsequent genocide. 310 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 3: Yeah. 311 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 2: So I was on a panel with some Hinder people 312 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: the other day and they are still by physical and 313 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: technical infrastructure, being marginalized. So something myself and my union 314 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: friends are trying to do is help the Hinder Podcast 315 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 2: Initiative start podcasting right such that they can share their 316 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: own voices with the world and their positions and their opinions. 317 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 2: It's very important at a time when they're facing marginalization, 318 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: even from revolutionary forces within me and Mark, and we 319 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 2: cannot sustain an Internet connection to allow them to do that. 320 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 2: Like we tried to do a liveanel and it was 321 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 2: very hard for you know, these guys who are running 322 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 2: around cox is bizarre where tens of thousands of bringing 323 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 2: of people live in refugee camps trying to find connectivity, 324 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: and like just another example of how they continue to 325 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: be marginalized by the systems that first allowed them to 326 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 2: be genocided exactly. 327 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, because the private cooperations are low and not response. 328 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: But for this is the governments too. You know, when 329 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: the corporations still tell the government to do something, the 330 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: governments comply. And then when the governments tell the corporations 331 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: to do stuff a lot of the time, it's also 332 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: like they comply. It's collaboration, you know, especially since the 333 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: government has the power in a lot of cases to 334 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: shut down the Internet when things are not going their way. Yeah, 335 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, they used it and all of it. Recently, 336 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: you have the suppression of the centering protests, you know, 337 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: to influence elections or to restrict information, substructionalism and communication 338 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: during crises. When you look at all over the world, Iran, India, 339 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: than Myanmar, Uganda, even in Gaza. In all these cases, 340 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: these governments step in and they limit or they shut 341 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: down the Internet entirely to prevent the news from getting out. 342 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: You know, they could target either the entire Internet or 343 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: they target it in platforms. They target WhatsApp, they target Twitter. 344 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: They justify by saying, oh they're going after take news 345 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: or there's a security threat. Yeah it's bullshit, but you 346 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: know we could see through that. Yeah, and it's tough 347 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: because I mean, this is where these are. These are 348 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: the places where people have gathered. These are the online 349 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: town squares, you know, and these these this infrastructure is 350 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: very much centralized. Google controls most of the search on 351 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: the internet. Amazon dominates e commerce and cloud, computer and logistics, 352 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: and Matter controls a lot of people's social interactions. You know, 353 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: I could brag and say, oh, well I'm not on Facebook, 354 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: but you know, as the use what'sapp, because everybody else 355 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: uses WhatsApp. Yeah, and it's so easy for them because 356 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: we're so concentrated on these platforms. It's so easy for 357 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: them to popet us, to flex their their muscles and 358 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: control the direction of public discourse. And I mean it's 359 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: amplifying things, suppressing other things, maximizing our engagements, exploiting our 360 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: cognitive and vulnerabilities, polarizing discourse, distorted reality. It's like, what 361 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: the hell do we do? Yeah, And so for the 362 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: Opium segment of the podcast, I just want to point 363 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: out that, you know, infrastructure can be used to consolidate 364 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: power and control people, but it can also be used 365 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: to resist and to re clim a collective agency. You know, 366 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: even infrastructure there was originally designed to control can be 367 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: taken under our control. You know, around the world, communities 368 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: have been able to challenge these extractive logics to build 369 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: their own infrastructures on their own terms. You know, in 370 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: digital spaces, this might take the form of community build 371 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: mesh networks or alternative Internet local servers. You know, you 372 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: have projects like Guifi dot net in Catalonia, or you 373 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: have the NYC Mesh in New York, and these are 374 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: efforts to engage in you know, pay to pay and 375 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: decentralized communications without the reliance and the telecom giants. And 376 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: then you also of course physically have examples of infrastructure 377 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: resistant central control, participatory urban planet movements. You have gorilla urbanism, 378 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: you have you know, of course, the long and storied 379 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: history of squatting otherwise known as informal settlement, and these 380 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: informal set of months hubs of innovation, and a lot 381 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: of cases in tastes like Nai Ruby or in Rio Gario. 382 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: You know, these these slums and favelas, they're hooking up 383 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: their own electricity, hooking up their own internet, hooking up 384 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: their own what is supply because they recognize that this 385 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: is within their hands, this is within their capacity. You know, 386 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: we don't have to have everything, you know, passed on 387 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: to us from one high you know, we can you know, 388 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: sort of reclaim our own voices and design our own spaces. 389 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: If you're really interested in how infrastructure has the capacity 390 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: to control and really just how states sort of see things, 391 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: I have to of course recommend the classic James Scott 392 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: seeing like a state. Yeah, I mean, it's such a 393 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: foundational framework to understand and how infrastructure is used for 394 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: social engineering it's really readable as well, so definitely give 395 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: that a read. And you know, think about we is 396 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: that you can contribute to shape in the infrastructure around you. 397 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: And I don't know, James, if you have any stories 398 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: along this vay and you could leave us off with. 399 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think of a ton right, like 400 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 2: even I think about Like when I was a lot younger, 401 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 2: I lived in a I guess what you could call 402 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: a slum of favela, like a pretty economically disadvantage part 403 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: of Karakas for a little while, and like at the time, 404 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 2: and I've seen this when I lived in Barcelona too, 405 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 2: Like I guess the English word would be info shop 406 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: they normally call them. Social centers would be the Spanish 407 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: word or social spaces, and like it was cool to see. 408 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 2: Is this is a city which is established through colonialism, right, 409 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 2: And there was a brief time before things were terrible 410 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 2: in Venezuela where people were trying to make it and 411 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 2: largely it was people trying to make things better. The 412 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 2: state for a time allowed a space for that to 413 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: exist before it stopped allowing a space for that to exist, 414 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 2: which is where we're at right now, right and very 415 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 2: clearly the state right now is very repressive in Venezuela, 416 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: to be clear, Like I didn't want to give put 417 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: fuel on the tanky fire or whatever, but it was 418 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 2: actually a really beautiful thing and it facilitated right, I 419 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 2: was like nineteen, My Spanish was dog shit. 420 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 3: I was hungry all the time. 421 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 2: It didn't have any food, you know, But it facilitated 422 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 2: that community taking care of me because the spaces were 423 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 2: public and people could see if people were falling through 424 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: the cracks, right, And like, I think a lot about 425 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 2: refugee camps, so obviously that somewhere has spent a decent 426 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 2: amount of time right both within the US and outside 427 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: of the US. And one thing I've been thinking about 428 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: a lot recently is how so many of the people 429 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 2: I met on the way to the United States and 430 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 2: the Dadienne had horrific experiences in the Dadianne and afterwards, 431 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 2: but they also miss the community that they had, Like 432 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 2: they also miss the profound solidarity of just talking to 433 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 2: people the other day who were telling me, like when 434 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 2: they were hungry in the jungle, strangers who didn't speak 435 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: their language would try and give them food. 436 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, you see that in a lot of disasters too, 437 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: This sort of explosion and mutually. 438 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like refugee camp is a place where you 439 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 2: do not have privacy for the most part, and that's 440 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: not always great, but it facilitates caring for one another. 441 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 3: And like, I don't know, I. 442 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: Have this recollection from seven or eight years ago now 443 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 2: and while I'm walking through a refugee camp in Mexico 444 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 2: and just a very little girl from six seven something 445 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 2: like that, and I have long hair. People can't see me, 446 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 2: but she likes to mess with my hand braid and shit. 447 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 2: And I'm carrying this little girl and like I've been 448 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: coming for some time, and like the sense of community 449 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: that you felt there amongst like a really terrible situation, 450 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 2: but like because everyone can see you walking down as 451 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: a little walkway, everyone's like, oh hi, how are you? 452 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 2: Like you know, the kind of I'm trying to work 453 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 2: out what they what they need and how we can 454 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: best help. Like I just remember thinking like what the 455 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 2: fuck is wrong with and then going back to the 456 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: United States right in and sitting in my little house and like, 457 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 2: you know, you know, like like I'm fortunate to know 458 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: my neighbors and to be close to them, but not 459 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 2: many people are. And like for most people, you know 460 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 2: that they get out their house to go to their car, 461 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: they drive to their work, they don't say hi to anyone. 462 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: Like it's so strange that, like, in a sense, in 463 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: those refugee camps were closer to the beautiful life that 464 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: we want than we are in these million dollar homes 465 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 2: in a My house does not cost a million dollars. 466 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 3: I don't own a house. 467 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: But this the profound alien nation that we feel in 468 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 2: part because of the physical infrastructure, the ability of humanity 469 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: to fall back into caring for one another, to like 470 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: that's what we do when we are not like physically 471 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: and like intellectually restrained from doing it by structures both 472 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 2: both physical and digital and even emotional that divide us 473 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: from one another. And I've kind of thought about that 474 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: ever since, Like, how do I build a place where 475 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: people have more stability, but if I have privacy, people 476 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 2: have their material needs. 477 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: Men, Yeah, does you want to strike a balance infrastructure? Yeah, 478 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: I don't want. There's some cohoes and sort of plans 479 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: that I've seen, for example, but don't even really factor 480 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: any much privacy, which I'm not for it all. You know, 481 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: people don't want to have to recreate their their dorm 482 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: room experience or in my case, they're sharing a bedroom 483 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: the entire childhood experience. 484 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: So yeah, says we need to have space for people 485 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 2: to have privacy, but at the same time space for 486 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: people to have community, and like cities can exist like that. 487 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: Communities can exist like that. 488 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: They're the theory of the mediterrane in public sphere that 489 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 2: sometimes comes up where like again in working class Barcelona, right, 490 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 2: people don't generally have air conditioning and it can't get 491 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: very hot, so you just spend a lot of time 492 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: outside balcony whatever, you know, front port, if you got one, 493 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: that creates community, right, that creates a public sphere like 494 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 2: a place, and it's not quite our home, but it's 495 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 2: not controlled by someone else either. 496 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 3: It's like a community space. 497 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: And that doesn't exist in like suburb I don't live 498 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: in the suburbs, but like suburban America, you know, where 499 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 2: everyone has these like literal fences around all the shit 500 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: that they own. 501 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that exists a very an extent in Trinidad. Yeah, 502 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: you know, some areas are very much a communal and 503 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: other areas like trying desperately to be America. Yeah yeah, 504 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: so yeah, it's kind of a mix of both wheels there, 505 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: at the very least from what I'm aware of, what 506 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: I can tell people at least say height to their neighbors. Though, yeah, 507 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: that's still like a horrify and you. 508 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 3: Know, respecter of not knowing your neighbors. 509 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: Thing that I've heard of American life that you don't 510 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: even say hi. Yeah, you know, you don't even wave 511 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: at people like that. 512 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 513 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: No, I'm always at my neighbor's houses and they're always 514 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: at my house. 515 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 3: And like, I'm a. 516 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 2: Person who owns a lot of tools, you know, like 517 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: different spanners and stuff, so like I'm like I will 518 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 2: go out of my way to make sure that my 519 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: neighbors know they can borrow my shit. And and like 520 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 2: that does seem to be quite a new experience for 521 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: people who are like new in the neighborhood or whatever, 522 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: but we should all do that. It's such an easy 523 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 2: way to fight that alienation and that infrastructure that you know, like, yeah, 524 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: there's a wall between where I live and where the 525 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 2: person next door lives, but I can I can knock 526 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 2: on the door and say, hey, it looks like you're 527 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 2: having some trouble with your truck. 528 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 3: Do you need a hand or what have you? 529 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: Mm hmm yeah, So I mean what you're saying is 530 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: it could happen here? 531 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 532 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, you gotta make the good things happen here. Tagus 533 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 2: enough of the fucking bad shays. 534 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: Indeed, Laza for me guys, All power to all the people. 535 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 3: Please, It could. 536 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 4: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 537 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 4: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonmedia 538 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 4: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 539 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 540 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 4: now find sources for it could Happen Here listed directly 541 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 4: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.