1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: My Plague. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick, and we're back with part three of our 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: talk about the plague, the Second Plague, pandemic, the Black Death, 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: and specifically some religious responses to it now in parts 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: one and two. In part one, we sort of focused 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: on the plague itself, some questions about how it was transmitted, 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: what the different pandemics looked like, and so forth. And 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: then in the second episode we focused largely on religious 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: responses to the plague in Christian Europe. Today, we wanted 12 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: to expand talking about religious responses to the plague and 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: talk about some historical work on Islamic responses. But to 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: begin this discussion, I wanted to start by reading a 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: wonderful tale that I came across in a paper by 16 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: a scholar that I'm going to be referring to later 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: in this episode. So this story was originally told by 18 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: an Ottoman historian in the late fifteenth century about events 19 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: that allegedly happened I think in northwest Anatolia, which is 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: modern day Turkey. And the translation and retelling of the 21 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: story is by a modern historian named Neuquat Varlik, who 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: I believe is currently a professor in the history department 23 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: at the University of South Carolina. But Rob, if you're ready, 24 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read this tale, let's do it. On the 25 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: first night of January of fourteen Nino, while transporting a 26 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: load from Gallipoli to Aderna with other fellow laborers, a 27 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: wagon driver had an accident in bully year when his 28 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: ox was injured on the road and could not move 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: any further. His fellow drivers went to town to bring help, 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: leaving him alone to spend the night on the accident site. 31 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: Later that evening, when the unfortunate wagon driver was crying 32 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: in despair, he suddenly heard a loud noise, whereupon he 33 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: saw two horsemen in black attire astride black horses, racing 34 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: toward him. In fear, he hid under the wagon and 35 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: watched them going by like a lightning. Immediately after them, 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: a horseman in green attire, riding a pale horse and 37 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: waving a lightning whip, came by and called out to him, Oh, 38 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: you driver, have you seen two horsemen in black attire 39 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: riding black horses. When the driver showed him in which 40 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: direction they went. The horseman then asked the driver what 41 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: he was waiting for. Once the driver told him about 42 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: the accident, the horseman descended from his horse and touched 43 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: the leg of the ox three times, and the beast 44 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: was miraculously healed. Upon seeing this, the driver moved toward 45 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: the horseman in gratitude and inquired about his whereabouts. The 46 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: horseman revealed himself as profit his ear helping those in need. 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: He added that he was chasing The horseman quote. They 48 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: are pestilence and plague. They live among people God sent them. 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: They obey the orders of God. I have received an 50 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: order from God to expel them. They were eight in total. 51 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: I killed six of them. If I can kill those 52 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: two before they reached the seashore, there shall not be 53 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: another plague for thirty years. Oh wow, I kind of 54 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: want to see the rest of the movie. I mean, 55 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: this is this sound, this is delightfully cinematic. Yeah, the 56 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: writers in black the ring rights and then yeah, a hero, 57 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: a hero in green with a lightning whip upon a 58 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: pale horse chasing down plague to kill it. Ye, so 59 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: this tale was originally set down by a fifteenth century 60 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: Ottoman chronicler named Rooch, and I found the retelling in 61 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: a paper called from bett Noir to lemal de Constantinople, Plagues, 62 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: Medicine and the Early modern Ottoman State by an author 63 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: named Nuquet Varlik in the Journal of World History. And 64 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: this is a paper that documents evidence of how the 65 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: conceptualization of plague and the administrative reaction to it within 66 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire changed over the course of several centuries. 67 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: But regarding that tale itself, one fact I found funny 68 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: was that despite the supernatural details that make it seem 69 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: like an obvious piece of creative storytelling, the original chronicler 70 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: or Roach apparently claims that it is based on the 71 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: testimony of several trustworthy witnesses. So I'm not sure what 72 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: to make of that, but anyway, Varlec highlights it in 73 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: her paper as a fascinating example of popular plague narrative 74 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: and one that reveals some common features of thought about 75 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: epidemic disease in the Ottoman Empire. So apparently this story 76 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: bears strong resemblance to other tales like it going back 77 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: to the early Islamic period in which there's usually like 78 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: a man in green riding a pale horse who appear 79 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: in times of epidemic, disease or other struggle and helps 80 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: people rid themselves of pestilence or rid themselves of gin, 81 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: which are a form of supernatural creature, kind of demon 82 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: that might be made of air or flame. Uh. And 83 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: there are other common elements to such as the figure 84 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: in green uh touching, the touching a wound, or touching 85 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: an animal or say a leg three times in order 86 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: to heal it. And so the hero in this story 87 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: given given the name Heasy or here is also known 88 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: I've seen spelled as al Keter or al kadir uh 89 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: some those. That's sometimes like a l k h a 90 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: d I r, which means the green One, I believe, 91 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: though I think there's some etymological debate about where that 92 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: name comes from. It's largely taken, I think to me 93 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: in the Green One or the Verdant One. He's a 94 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: sort of saint or guardian angel type figure who appears 95 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: in Islamic lore going very far back. So Varlex says 96 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: this story would have had very familiar narrative of elements 97 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: to listeners and readers. In fifteenth century Anatolia. But there 98 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: are also unusual elements, For example, the portrayal of plague 99 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: and pestilence as writers in black is, she says, otherwise 100 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: rare or perhaps even unique to this story at this 101 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: point in Ottoman literature. Though It's interesting to me because 102 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: at least now that's a motif that seems utterly natural, 103 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,799 Speaker 1: Like depicting plague as embodied as a as a writer 104 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: wearing a black cloak on a black horse like that. 105 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: That that seems like something I would have encountered in 106 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: stories all the time. So I'm wondering if it comes 107 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: from this or if there there are parallel traditions in 108 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: other cultures. Yeah, because certainly from a Western perspective and 109 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: with the benefit of of you know, multiple centuries to 110 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: look back on, and that's the grim Reaper, the black 111 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: hooded figure like this is just such a staple of 112 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: of Western traditions and Western depictions of of evil and 113 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: uh and these these forces of destruction. Yeah, but did 114 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: it exist within Islamic thought or with an Ottoman thought 115 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: at the time beyond this one story that is? Yeah, 116 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: And so Varlex says, this story is actually a pretty 117 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: excellent reflection of how Ottoman Muslims of the of the 118 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: time period generally thought about plague as part of what 119 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: she she calls the Islamic plague cosmology of the fifteenth century, 120 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: which she characterizes as a system of explanations that are 121 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: ultimately revolving around divine causation around God. So she writes, quote, 122 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: according to this, plagues were inflicted upon humans by God, 123 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: and God alone had the power to relieve humans from 124 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: this ill In its broadest outlines, this vision of divine 125 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: origins and agency prevailed in the Islamic world throughout the ages, 126 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: and as such remained the predominant discourse circulating both orally 127 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: and in written texts. And so in this way it 128 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: sounds at least in part comparable to what we discussed 129 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: in the previous episode where arting Christian Europe, which was 130 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: that there may have been many different beliefs at the 131 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: time in Christian Europe about the proximate causes of plague. 132 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: You know, wasn't mi asthma type of bad air that's 133 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: pervading the town's or was it astrological causes? You know, 134 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: was it a conjunction of the planets coming into a 135 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: terrible catastrophic alignment or earthquakes releasing vapors from the ground 136 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: or something, but whatever the proximate causes, where most authors 137 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: in Christian Europe at the time would generally trace the 138 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: causal chain at some point back to divine will God 139 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: sent this plague. But regarding the Islamic views on the 140 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: causes of plague, I do want to be clear that 141 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: Varlik qualifies this characterization by stressing that there is not 142 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: just one monolithic Islamic tradition, nor was there only one 143 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: type of view held by Muslims at the time, And 144 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: in fact, the rest of her paper after this opening 145 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: story is devoted to showing how the multiple courses in 146 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: Ottoman society, beginning mostly under this umbrella of Islamic plague 147 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: cosmology where where basically all of the causes of plague 148 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: are divine, how that evolved over the years and then 149 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: especially during the sixteenth century, transformed into a radically different 150 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: and more medical or naturalistic theory of the causes of 151 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: plague and what the appropriate responses to it should be. Yeah, 152 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: I think it's also worth remembering that the Islamic world 153 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: during the centuries we're talking about here, they had access 154 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: to a great deal of important knowledge, in some cases 155 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: knowledge that had essentially been lost to Western Europe and 156 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: and sometimes only accessed again in Europe through Islamic texts. So, 157 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, in Western centric imaginings of things, it might 158 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: be easy to you know, to dream up this world 159 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: of monkst libraries, nights, and peasants on one hand, and 160 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: then this monolithic religion on the other. But the Islamic 161 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: world harbored some of the greatest minds of age. Well, yeah, 162 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: a lot of European wisdom of the time was actually 163 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: derived from works produced by the Islamic world in the 164 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: Middle Ages. Say from a big example that we referenced 165 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: in a previous episode is uh the the Persian poly 166 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: math Avicenna, who is you know, sometimes considered one of 167 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: the the fathers of modern medicine, and that his work 168 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: was very influential not just in the Islamic world, but 169 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: also in Christian Europe. Now, I want to come back 170 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: and revisit uh varlecks paper a little bit later in 171 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: the episode, but for a bit I'd like to shift 172 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: to talk about some of the major themes in the 173 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: existing comparative analysis of how Christians and Muslims responded to 174 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: the Black Death and its recurrent waves because I know 175 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: this was one of the things that got you interested 176 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: in this subject to begin with, But then it was 177 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: one of those subjects where as soon as you start 178 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: to get a peek in through the window, you realize 179 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: that it's like very complex. There's and like every time 180 00:10:57,960 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: you read something and you think you know a fact, 181 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: then there's like you read something else and realize, oh no, 182 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: maybe that's not as clear as it once seemed. Um 183 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: And and this seems to be a common feature not 184 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: just of comparing Christian and Islamic reactions to say, plague 185 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages, but a common feature of the 186 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: history of comparative religious analysis. Uh, you know, I'd like 187 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: comparative religious analysis. It's really interesting. You can learn a 188 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 1: lot from comparing and contrasting different religious traditions. But it's 189 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: also very, very tricky. It's one of those subject areas 190 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: where you can easily be tempted into forming inaccurate generalizations 191 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: on the basis of a small set of evidence. And 192 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: you and you've got a kind of natural zeal to 193 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: identify patterns and trends. You want to be able to 194 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: make general statements and make characterizations so it looks like 195 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: you have actually discovered facts that generally hold true. But 196 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: sometimes the you know, the the zeal to make facts 197 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: statements of that kind overcomes what should be some caution 198 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: and what what should what should be caution and humility 199 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: in the face of trying to characterize something as complex 200 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: as a religious response. Actually, remember this came up when 201 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: we were reading papers about iconic versus an iconic religious traditions. 202 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: You know, it seems like scholars who engage in comparative 203 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: religious analysis today are increasingly conscious of the need to 204 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: be kind of frugal and tentative with generalizations about the 205 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: similarities and differences between entire religions and the communities that 206 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: practice them, because comparing and contrasting to religions isn't like 207 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: comparing and contrasting the features of geometrical shapes, you know, 208 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: like you can list the the all of the differences 209 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: and similarities between a right triangle and an Isosceles triangle 210 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: or something. But but you know, religions are extremely complex 211 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: social phenomena, and sometimes you're not even aware of what 212 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: you're missing out on. As a function of the sources 213 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: of evidence available to you. Yeah, Like I think we've 214 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: discussed this in terms of say Buddhism, for example. Know, 215 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: I mean you can if you talk very generally about Buddhism, 216 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: what are you accounting for the different regional versions of 217 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: of of the faith? Are you dealing with the different 218 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: um different social levels within a given community, Like, there's 219 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: so many different divisions that can be uh, you can 220 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: you can pull on and if you're just being very 221 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: general about it, Yeah, it might help you prop up 222 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: a point you're trying to make, but you're certainly not 223 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: gonna be doing a fair job of of speaking to 224 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: how that particular model of faith. Uh uh you know 225 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: impacts uh, you know, the human condition at large. I mean, 226 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: I think about how difficult it is to make accurate 227 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: generalizations about something as complex as a religion, even when 228 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: you live amongst it, Like how how would you make 229 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: accurate characterizations about, say, Catholicism in twenty first century America, 230 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: even though like you probably know a bunch of Catholics 231 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: in America in the twenty first century and like you know, 232 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: you you you're immersed in a culture in which this 233 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: is this is one part of it. Um. Uh so 234 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: it seems like you should have a really good view 235 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: about it, but then it's still probably hard to make 236 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: accurate generalizations. And now imagine you had to make those 237 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: generalizations hundreds of years later, working off of a select 238 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: number of surviving books from the period, and that's pretty 239 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: much it. So anyway, all that to say that when 240 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: you engage in this type of stuff, it's important to 241 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: have a spirit of humility and and be cautious about 242 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: how much you think you know. And following from that, 243 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: something we talked about in the previous episodes is that, 244 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: much like the scientific history of the plague pandemic itself, 245 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: the subject of the Islamic response religious response to plague 246 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: has undergone some revision and re examination in recent decades. 247 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: And uh so here I think maybe it makes sense 248 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: to introduce two different papers that I've been looking at, 249 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: uh to introduce what seems to me to be one 250 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: an example of sort of the dominant historical characterizations from 251 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: uh say, the late twentieth century, along side a more 252 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: recent paper I found talking about some re examination of 253 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: those claims. So to start with the older characterizations, I'll 254 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: refer to a paper I quoted in the previous episode 255 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: It's a piece called the Comparative Communal Responses to the 256 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: Black Death in Muslim and Christian Societies by Michael W. Dolls, 257 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: published in the nineteen seventies. This is the historian Michael W. Dolls, 258 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: who lived nineteen forty two to nineteen eighty nine. And 259 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: this piece was actually the place I found that description 260 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: of the plague from the fourteenth century North African Muslim 261 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: historian Eben Caldoon, which was you remember that really haunting 262 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: description of like the city's being emptied and the way 263 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: signs falling away, And what did he say? It was 264 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: as if the voice of existence in the world had 265 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: called out for oblivion, and restriction in the world had 266 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: responded to its call. Yeah, but anyway, so that that's 267 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: the Dolls piece I'm gonna be looking at, but then 268 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: also providing some more recent or revised understanding, though not 269 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: just responding to Dolls. I was also reading a uh 270 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: An article by Justin Stearns, who I believe is a 271 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: professor at n y U Abu Dhabi who specializes in 272 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: uh Muslim history, and this one is called New Directions 273 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: in the Study of Religious Responses to the Black Death, 274 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: And I should stress that those sterns disagrees with a 275 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: few of dolls as generalizations uh that that he makes. 276 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: He says that overall Dolls's history is like a really 277 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: important and excellent work. It is it. He does seem 278 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: to be widely cited. Yeah, so it's not like the 279 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: older one is like bad. It's just like he you know, 280 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: maybe could have had more nuance in it. Got you now. 281 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: I think in the previous episode we talked about how 282 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: even if you put religious ideas aside for a moment, 283 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: that Christian and Muslim societies into some degree tended to 284 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: share the same dominant mechanical theories of the spread of plague. 285 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: Where they had mechanical theories of the spread, which was 286 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: the most common was that they were rooted in miasthma theory. Again, 287 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: this is uh, the idea that there would be some 288 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: form of bad air spreading the plague, and that this 289 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: would have been derived from the common heritage of medical 290 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: authorities like Hippocrates, Galen, and Avicenna. But then Dole says 291 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: that European Christian and Muslim reactions were quite dissimilar in 292 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: terms of their religious responses, and that this tells us 293 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: something about the essential identity of each religious culture. So 294 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: Doles has three major claims about the dominant views of 295 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: Muslim religious authorities during the Black Death and and they 296 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: go like this, and we can come back and analyze 297 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: or maybe question these as we move along. So, first 298 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: of all, Dole says that plague was viewed as a 299 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: mercy from God and a martyrdom for the faithful Muslim. 300 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: And so this this is an interesting variation to the 301 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: extent that it's true, because by being a martyrdom, this 302 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: would make dying from plague and a form of honorable 303 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: death that will ensure that the martyr is delivered to paradise. 304 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: And this stands in contrast to the widespread Christian view 305 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: that plague was a divine punishment for sin uh though 306 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: Doles mentioned some Muslim opinion that plague could be a 307 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: punishment for sin in some cases, or say for nonbelievers. Alright, 308 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: so the second tenant is quote a Muslim should not 309 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: enter nor flee from a plague stricken land. And apparently 310 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: this is a longstanding prophetic tradition in Islam. And to 311 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: the extent that people did hold disbelief, it would obviously 312 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: interfere with them protecting themselves by fleeing plague ridden towns. 313 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: And then the third point is that quote, there was 314 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: no contagion of plague, since disease came directly from God. 315 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: And this is allegedly in contrast to Christian Europe, where 316 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: although there was no germ theory of disease, you could 317 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: see that there was some kind of rudimentary concept of contagion, 318 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: the idea that somehow by being around plague you could 319 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: get plague, though the mechanisms might have been obscure. So 320 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: I think the difference here is that Doles is claiming 321 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: that while in Europe there was broadly an idea that 322 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: plague could be transmitted by some kind of brute physical causation, 323 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: you could somehow just like get plague from the environment, 324 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: in the Muslim world, plague was given to you directly 325 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: by supernatural means by God, and thus didn't physically spread. 326 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: And Doll's emphasizes these claims he makes by putting them 327 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: in contrast to what he what he would claim about 328 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: Christian Europe. So he writes, quote, the importance of these 329 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: three principles to Muslim society was in what they did 330 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: not affirm. They did not declare that plague was God's punishment, 331 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: they did not encourage flight, and they did not support 332 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: a belief in the contagious nature of plague, all of 333 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: which were prevalent in Christian Europe. However, he does quality 334 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: ify these. He also does not treat these as the 335 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: universal blanket statements. He says that while these three religio 336 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: legal tenants, or what he calls them, while they were 337 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: generally held, it would be untrue and unreasonable to believe 338 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: they were held universally, and there was some measure of 339 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: scholarly debate about them. So as for the first principle, 340 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: the idea that plague is a is a mercy and 341 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: a martyrdom from God, there is some historical and literary 342 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: evidence of people believing the opposite in Muslim societies, that 343 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: in some cases it was viewed as a punishment for sin, 344 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: like it was commonly in Christian Europe, rather than as 345 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: a mercy. So just one example I came across. I 346 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: was reading that paper by by Newcat Varlick, and she 347 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: mentions a saying of a fifteenth century Ottoman scholar who 348 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: attributes plague to adultery. So you know when adultery takes place, 349 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: you know that that can only foster evil upon the world, 350 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: and that evil becomes plague, which sounds kind of like 351 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: some of the things that we were talking about in 352 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: the last episode that were commonly believed in Europe. Now 353 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: there might be some doubt about these three characterizations he makes, 354 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: but first, I did just want to mention some consequences 355 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: that Dolls believes follows from uh these three facts he 356 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: believes to be true about the Muslim response to plague. 357 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: One major difference is that Muslim societies do not really 358 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: seem to record what he calls, quoting another source the 359 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: quote striking manifestations of abnormal collective psychology, of dissociation of 360 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: the group mind that were present in Christian Europe. Um. So, 361 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: for example, he says that there's really no evidence that 362 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: Muslim society has produced apocalyptic messianic movements in response to 363 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: the Black Death as did Christian Europe. So think of 364 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: the flagelence that we talked about last time, and he 365 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: thinks that this may be in part due to a 366 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: relative lack of theological precedent in Islamic tradition. Quote. Furthermore, 367 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: the fact that there was no certainty that play was 368 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: a divine punishment for sin, removed the impetus for a 369 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: cohesive puritanical and revivalist popular movement. Yeah, because if you 370 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: think back to what we discussed in the last episode, 371 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: there was this sense that the system is failing, like, 372 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: why are we still being punished by God for our sins? 373 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: What more do we have to do? Perhaps we have 374 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: to work outside the system, And it leads to these 375 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: various heretical um threads such as the flagelence you know, 376 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: becomes a movement, and yeah, you can see where of 377 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: if there's a not a precedent for those kinds of 378 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 1: movements and you you don't have as much of this 379 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: emphasis of of play being directly caused by by personal 380 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,239 Speaker 1: or communal sin, uh, then there's there's less room for 381 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: that to to to grow right now. There's another important 382 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: difference that the Doll's argues. He says that minority communities 383 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: in Muslim lands were not persecuted a reaction to the plague, 384 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: certainly not to the extent that they were in Europe. 385 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: For example, the way Jews were persecuted in communities throughout 386 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: Christian Europe as a sort of a violent outburst in 387 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: response to the plague and dolls. Thinks this may be 388 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: in part derivative of his claim that Muslims did not 389 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: generally believe in contagion, but rather believe that plague was 390 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: sent directly from God. So the way that would work 391 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: is if you can't really get the plague from a 392 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: physical cause, like if if you know it's just God 393 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: deciding whether or not you get plague, if you can 394 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: only get it straight from the divine realm, then you 395 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: couldn't really have these delusional conspiracy theories about Jews poisoning 396 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: the wells and so forth. Now, now, speaking of the 397 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: the the Jewish persecution during the Black Death, I had 398 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: I want to throw in just one little bit here. 399 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: I had some notes on this, but then we ended 400 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: up not covering it. And then we heard from a 401 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: listener on the stuff Doable Your Mind Discussion module, which 402 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: is the book group for for for discussion of the show, 403 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: heard from Adam, who is a rabbi, and what was 404 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: writing in about between these episodes about a book that 405 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 1: they've read titled The Jew in the Medieval World by 406 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: Jacob R. Marcus so Um. Basically, this added wrinkle in 407 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: the Jewish persecution during the Black Death death was that 408 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: there was apparently this charge that Jewish people were less 409 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: affected by plague and that this was uh. This indicated 410 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: that they were somehow involved in it. Now, to be clear, 411 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: as we as we stressed in the last episode, Jewish 412 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: people did die of plague like everyone else, and at 413 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: an appalling rate. But there it is sometimes though asked 414 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: whether Jewish hygiene practices might have given them a slight 415 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: edge over the rest of the population in terms of 416 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: of previous illnesses and outbreaks and even with the Black 417 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: Death UM. So it's it's interesting to think about. It's 418 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: it's worth stressing that this form of anti Semitic messaging 419 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: continued on for centuries, and you see variations of this 420 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: even during the twentieth century. There's um I've seen images 421 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: of a Polish poster, for example, that invokes fears of Typhus, 422 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: connecting Jewish people to Typhus um you know, which, which 423 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: is just another example of of anti Semitic persecution. But 424 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: to your point, if there is a widespread belief that uh, 425 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: that afflictions like this come directly from God and cannot 426 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,479 Speaker 1: be acquired from other communities or other individuals within your 427 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: own community, Uh, then there's less room to engage in 428 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: this kind of thought, right, because you couldn't think that 429 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: it was like somehow a physical weapon being used against 430 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: you by, say, you know, a a persecuted minority group 431 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: that you had suspicions and resentments toward. In a way, 432 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: all this ties into something that the Dole says ultimately 433 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: where he characterizes the Muslim reaction to plague as relatively 434 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: quote pacific, collective and controlled compared to the response to 435 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: plague in Christian Europe. Uh So there's a long quote 436 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: I guess I'm not gonna read this whole bit, but 437 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read part of it where he's sort of 438 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: summing up what he sees as some of the major 439 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: differences and how they grow from the different different theological 440 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: emphasies of these two religions. He says, quote, the cosmic 441 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: settings of the two faiths are wide apart in their emphasis. 442 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: Where the Muslims primary duty was toward the correct behavior 443 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: of the total community based on the Sacred Law, the 444 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: Christians was with personal redemption, where the Koran supplied guidance 445 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: the Bible furnished consolation. For the Muslim the Black Death 446 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: was part of a god oriented natural universe. For the 447 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: Christian it was an eruption of the profane world of 448 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: sin and misery. But anyway, I've been mentioning that with 449 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: these three generalizations that the Dolls makes, I wanted to 450 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: come back and and possibly interrogate them or or question 451 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: them to some extent by consulting this paper is reading 452 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: by by Justin Stearns from two thousand nine, And this 453 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: paper makes clear Sterns is very much a fan of 454 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: of evaluating the religious responses of Christians, Muslims, and Jews 455 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: to the plague. So it's not like he thinks it 456 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: is not a worthwhile project to engage in comparative historical 457 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: religious analysis. That's what he's clearly into um. But he 458 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: does talk about how previous scholarship has regarded the responses 459 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: of the three religions here as fundamentally different in important ways, 460 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: such as how they conceptualize contagion, like we were just 461 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: talking about. And one of the things that Sterns emphasizes 462 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: is that these distinctions are not necessarily so clear as 463 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: they have seemed other scholars, and that there is often 464 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: more internal diversity and debate within each religion than has 465 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: previously been appreciated, and more similarities between their responses than 466 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: is sometimes appreciated. I'm not going to go in depth 467 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: on every point he he makes in this paper, but 468 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: there was one thing he gets into early slightly orthogonal 469 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: to what we're talking about. But but I did think 470 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: it was very interesting, which was about the idea of 471 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,239 Speaker 1: local versus universal, And it's sort of the idea that 472 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: you can't really understand the Second plague pandemic if you 473 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: only think about the initial outbreak in the middle of 474 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: the fourteenth century in Europe. You need to think more 475 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: broadly in terms of time and geography. But at the 476 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: same time, you can't just think about the plague, the 477 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: Second plague pandemic, which in a way you could argue 478 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: goes on for centuries as something that had global effects 479 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: continuously for the entire time that it was present, because 480 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: each outbreak of plague in each individual region, each new epidemic, 481 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: could be perceived by the people experiencing it as at 482 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: least potentially local and unique. It was happening to them 483 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: in the place where they lived, and it was this 484 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: current disaster. You know, we can sometimes be lured by 485 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: the breadth of history into thinking that people in other 486 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: times and places in history understood they were living in 487 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: a historical trend much more than they did, you know, 488 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: Like we we don't even really understand the historical trends 489 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: that we're living in until until we're right at the 490 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: end of them. Often, yeah, and and sometimes not even 491 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: even then. Like it's you know, it's sometimes it's difficult 492 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: to look back on previous decades and think of them 493 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: as as like historical periods in the same way we 494 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: might view some you know, like say the eighties, the seventies, 495 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: the sixties, but uh, you know, like the last twenty 496 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: years have kind of feel like just sort of a 497 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: recent blur to me. Like it's it's hard to think 498 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: of those as as important like pillars of time. Yeah, 499 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: it's you know, the present always feels kind of unique, 500 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: and and it is only in looking back that you're 501 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: really able with confidence to identify all the ways in 502 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: which the present, for you now the past is like 503 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: the even further past. Yeah. And I guess also we 504 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: have with modern media, of course, we have a more 505 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: global perspective, or we have access to a more global 506 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: perspective at times regarding what's happening in the world. And 507 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: there's also maybe a tendency to want to package everything. 508 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: You know, you need a title for this segment, so 509 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: um and and I guess you could make a case 510 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: for some of that going on in prior ages with 511 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: different you know, writers and commentators. But but yeah, it 512 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: wasn't a situation where you would turn on your global 513 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: news channel and see, you know what we're calling this 514 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: present darkness. Now Here I want to come to Stearns 515 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: is interrogation of some of these generalizations made by made 516 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: by Michael Doles. So I think the first one we 517 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: should look at is this question of did Muslims in 518 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: the at the time of the Black Death generally accept 519 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: a theory of contagion or not? Remember this was doless 520 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: third generalization. He says that there really was no contagion 521 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: of plague in the Muslim conscious, since disease came directly 522 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: from God. It was caused supernaturally, not by any kind 523 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: of physical mechanism that would allow it to spread from 524 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: person to person or in an area. And Starn's argues 525 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: that there's actually a lot at stake in our understanding 526 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: of these kinds of attitudes towards plague, and especially you 527 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: can see how characterizations of this kind get applied to 528 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: situations that they might not really be good analogies. For 529 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: for example, uh he He cites the example of many 530 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: Europeans hundreds of years ago, not like modern historians, but 531 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 1: people in the sixteenth and seventeen centuries Protestant authors using 532 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: what they believe to be the historical example of Turkish 533 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: Muslim's reaction to the plague within arguments about whether Christians 534 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: had a moral duty to stay in plague gridden areas 535 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: in order to help their Christian neighbors, or whether they 536 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: should uh they should flee the disease in order to 537 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: protect themselves. And authors who advocated fleeing the disease sometimes 538 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: compared their opponents to Turkish Muslims because they believed that 539 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: Turkish Muslims had a fatalistic attitude towards plague and would 540 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: not try to escape it. You can find numerous references 541 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: in the sixteenth and seventeenth century of of European authors 542 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: talking about it like this, like, for example, Leibniz, apparently 543 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: in mounting an argument against fatalism, used Turkish Muslims during 544 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: plague outbreaks as an example of the philosophy of fatalism. 545 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: They failed to escape areas affected by plague even when 546 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: they easily could have, and he regards this, I guess 547 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: as foolish. And here in this question about about the 548 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: belief and contagion in the Muslim world, we actually get 549 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: to a specific historical figure uh, a figure known as 550 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: even al Hatib and uh The Stearns describes al Hatib 551 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: as the prolific and rightly celebrated granad and vizier and 552 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: man of letters. This was a scholar who lived in 553 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: southern Iberia under the Immirate of Granada during the fourteenth 554 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: century uh and in the years after the Black Death, 555 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: al Hatib wrote a famous treatise called on the Plague, 556 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: in which he argued that the plague was in fact contagious, 557 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: despite some some theological judgments to the contrary, and offered 558 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: citations of empirical evidence to prove it. Michael Dole's in 559 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: that piece does acknowledge al Hatib, and on the issue 560 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: of contagions, cites him as one very important exception. So 561 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: Doles writes quote as for the third problem of contagion, 562 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: the Andalusian scholar Iban al Hatib has attracted European attention 563 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: for his observation and forceful statement of the contagious nature 564 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: of the black death. This points, however, to the exceptional 565 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: nature of Ibn al Hatib's belief and the weight of 566 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: opinion against him. Even al Hatib was the only Muslim 567 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: writer to my knowledge to argue against the accepted interpretation 568 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: of plague. His fourth right statement is probably one of 569 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: the portions of his writings which gave support to his 570 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: enemies in their later persecution of him as a heretic um, 571 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: and so in the In the latter thing here this 572 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: refers to the fact that at the at the end 573 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: of his life al Hati was caught up in a 574 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: series of palace coups and political power struggles, after which 575 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: it in one of them he was jailed after being 576 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: convicted by a by a sort of panel of jurists, 577 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: and at some point uh he was murdered in his 578 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: jail cell. He after being tried for heresy, though Starns 579 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: argues that this was not necessarily as a result of 580 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: his comments about the plague and may may have just 581 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: as well been a just kind of a pure power play. 582 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: Like he was murdered by his political opponents, and Stearns 583 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: writes that this series of events quote has been widely 584 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: construed by students of medieval European history as having been 585 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: due to the rigid and intolerant nature of Islam orthodoxy, 586 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: and I suspect a general impression that scientific thought in 587 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: the Muslim world was in decline. Um so uh so. 588 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: Sterns argues that the both of these ideas, that that 589 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: Muslims in general rejected belief in contagion, and that even 590 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: al Hatib was a quote, free thinking exception in a 591 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: sea of fatalistic and narrow minded Muslim jurists and theologians. 592 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: That both of these ideas have been around for a 593 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: long time and are continuously represented in scholarship on the 594 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: Black Death of the period. But Sterns kind of pushes 595 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: back against them. Now. He does seem to agree that 596 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: theological rejection of the theory of contagion was in fact 597 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: the most common view in the pre modern Arab Muslim 598 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: world um, but he says that even al Hatip support 599 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,479 Speaker 1: for contagion theory, rather than being the the single loan 600 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 1: voice of descent, was actually probably more like a particularly 601 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: rhetorically power full phrasing of a view that was a 602 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: minority opinion but was nevertheless pretty widely held and openly 603 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: discussed by plenty of Muslim jurists. And this may make sense, 604 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: right because outside of of the various like philosophical and 605 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: theological ideas that that either population European or Islamic world 606 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 1: would have had, there would have been like direct observation, 607 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: there would have been there would have been room to 608 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: realize there's something to the way this illness spreads. There's 609 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: something about physical proximity to other people with the illness 610 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: that you could potentially pick up on, though complicated by 611 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: the fact that, as we discussed in the first episode, 612 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: I mean, the transmission vectors of historical plague outbreaks are 613 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: still somewhat obscure to us today. Like there's still debate 614 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: about to what extent uh plague was spread by contagion 615 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 1: from other people. Remember in the first episode we talked 616 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: about So there's this idea for a long time that 617 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: play is primarily spread in bubonic form from from bites, 618 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: from fleas, from commence al rodents or other animals, and 619 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: that probably represents some amount of spread. But then there 620 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: are other ways it can spread, so you can get 621 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,399 Speaker 1: the neemonic version of the plague, and then it can 622 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: be spread in aerosolized droplets you know, people cough and 623 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: and spread it person to person that way. And then 624 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: there is this more recent idea that maybe it was 625 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: spread person to person but through the vector of human ectoparasites, 626 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: fleas and lce on people's bodies. But all this to 627 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: say because there is not one single way the plague 628 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: is spreading, but probably multiple different routes, and we're still 629 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: not sure what percentage of transmission these different routes represented. Uh, 630 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: it obviously must have been confusing. Yeah, And I also 631 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: want to stress that, as we've discussed on the show before, 632 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: like observation and common sense do not always lead to 633 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: scientific reality. You know, they can these these you know, 634 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: your gut instinct and just seeming you know, observing how 635 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: the word world works. This can and has at times 636 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: resulted in thoroughly non scientific ideas. So I don't I 637 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: don't want to imply that in either group it was 638 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: just a matter of, oh, well, they just should have 639 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: paid more attention and been more sensible, right, No, No, 640 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: I didn't think you were saying that. Okay, I just 641 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: want to be clear. Yeah, apparently all hat He was 642 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: was mounting empirical arguments for contagion um. But anyway, Sterns 643 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: writes that quote, far from having been accused of heresy 644 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: for his statement on contagion. Even all hats opinions on 645 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: the plague were debated by succeeding generations of scholars, as 646 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: can be seen in a recently published collection of legal 647 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: opinions from the fifteenth century, and in that his eventual 648 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: trial for heresy was most likely politically motivated. You know 649 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: he was there. There was like a power struggle going on. 650 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: And Sterns uses the example of this one UH figure 651 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: to make the point that while some broad trends within 652 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: religious communities can be observed, stern does agree that the 653 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: majority view among Muslim jurists and theologians at the time 654 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: is that plague is not contagious and is caused supernaturally 655 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: by God. But but but just disagrees that Alhati was 656 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: the only person pushing back against this. Again, as as 657 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: he says, it was, it was more like a it 658 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: was a minority view that was expressed and debated. And 659 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: so the broader point I think he's making is that 660 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: you can you can get a much more accurate picture 661 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 1: of historical trends by understanding the diversity of thought within 662 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: communities at the same time that you're trying to identify 663 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: the the broader overriding trends that described them. And from here, 664 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: Actually this is later in his conclusion that he cites this, 665 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: but I found this really interesting. He quotes a completely 666 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: inverse image of this comparative generalization about about fatalism and 667 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: belief in contagion in response to the plague um So 668 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: he quotes a twenty one century Tunisian scholar who makes 669 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: use of an interesting anecdote from a fourteenth century figure 670 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: named even Marzook alha Feed, and alha Feed writes that 671 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: in in this fourteenth century work that he was sent 672 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: by the Sultan of Tlemson, which is in modern day 673 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 1: Algeria too on a journey to the Sultan of Fez, 674 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: and at that time there was a great outbreak of 675 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: disease in the stretch of North Africa known as the 676 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,240 Speaker 1: mug Rub and as they traveled through the land um 677 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: this Uh, this figure was accompanied by a group of messengers, 678 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: including one of whom was a Christian. And here I 679 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 1: just want to read from Stern's citation of of this story, 680 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 1: of this this fourteenth century uh figure quote. Their intention 681 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: in doing what they did was not to approach the 682 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: epidemic by entering the castle. This was their choice, and 683 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: I was in agreement with them. The Christian asked, what's 684 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 1: with these people who don't enter this place? His translator, 685 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: as he didn't speak Arabic, well said to him, they 686 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: have fled from the epidemic. Then the Christians said what 687 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: we were told had the following meaning, fleeing will not 688 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: save them. There is no doubt that what God has 689 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: decreed is what will be. When I heard these words, 690 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: I was dismayed and confused about what I was doing, 691 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: as it was well known that according to prophetic tradition, 692 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: one shouldn't approach such an area. I rejected completely that 693 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: it should seem that one who had no knowledge of 694 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: the hadith, who is an unbeliever, should be greater in 695 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: entrusting himself to God's order and more believing in what 696 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: had been decreed. I knew that it was a trial, 697 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: so I advised advancing and entered the castle, though I 698 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: didn't order the others what to do. Uh So this 699 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 1: is interesting because Stearns notes that there's at least he 700 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: cites a modern Tunisian scholar who has used this historical 701 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: anecdote to argue the exact inverse, that that Christians were 702 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: fatalistic about the Black Death and that though there were 703 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,720 Speaker 1: a diversity of views among Muslims, some argue for fleeing 704 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: the plague and establishing quarantines on the basis of contagion theory. 705 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: Uh So, I thought that was funny about how it 706 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: can go both ways and uh And while there is 707 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 1: of course a lot to be learned from comparative studies 708 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: of religious interpretation and natural events, this kind of project 709 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 1: can also just make it so tempting to make misleading 710 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,399 Speaker 1: generalizations on the basis of a single anecdote that you're 711 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,280 Speaker 1: aware of and and sort of gloss over internal diversity 712 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: and disagreement than now. Stearns make some other points in 713 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: this paper that I think go to apart from the 714 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: contagion point, the other two characterizations that were made by 715 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: Michael Doles. The first one was that plague was generally 716 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: viewed as a mercy from God and a martyrdom for 717 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: the faithful Muslim, and second that a Muslim should not 718 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: enter nor flee a plague stricken land. And on these subjects, 719 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,280 Speaker 1: I thought this was interesting and and this goes along 720 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: with something that I think comes through in several places 721 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: in in Starns argument, which is that he argues that 722 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: there's often more similarity between the three different religions responses 723 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 1: than is appreciated, and that sometimes these theological debates about 724 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: the plague are actually largely reproduced within each monotheistic religious community, 725 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: so they share some similarities in their internal controversies and reactions. 726 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: But he does argue, as uh Dolls, I do think 727 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: acknowledge somewhat that there were also views within the Muslim 728 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,479 Speaker 1: world that characterized the plague as a punishment for sin, 729 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: as like the dominant view in Christian Europe was, and 730 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: that in fact, in some cases some Jewish sources from 731 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,319 Speaker 1: the time mentioned plague as being a punishment for sin 732 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,280 Speaker 1: as well. This just seems like this is a commonplace 733 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 1: for the monotheistic religions to go mentally. And as for 734 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 1: some of these interesting internal controversy, Stearns talks about some 735 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: conflict even between some ideas mentioned here, like for example, 736 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 1: he goes on to explain some of the origins of 737 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: the prophetic tradition that one should neither enter nor leave 738 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: an area where that is stricken by plague um. And 739 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,280 Speaker 1: he says that these these prophetic traditions, they gave rise 740 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: to some some difficulties in reconciling them with each other 741 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: that had to be in these differences had to be 742 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: sorted out by later Muslim jurists and theologians. So, for example, 743 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,279 Speaker 1: one contradiction might be, on one hand, you have a 744 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: belief that dying of plague can be a form of martyrdom, 745 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,879 Speaker 1: which is an honorable and good death, a mercy from God. 746 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: And then on the other hand, you can have the 747 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: belief that if plague is in an area, you shouldn't 748 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: enter it. And so you could view these things as 749 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: as possibly being in contradiction with each other. But much 750 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,399 Speaker 1: like as we saw with the Christian tradition, I think 751 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,280 Speaker 1: Stern's idea here is that this just sort of gives 752 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: rise to competing takes. Well, like with any other religion, 753 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,240 Speaker 1: you've got some authorities emphasizing one half of the tradition, 754 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 1: some authorities emphasizing the other, uh some making mention a 755 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: little mention of either one, and just sort of telling 756 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: people to get away from the plague. So this does 757 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: make me think about a point of comparison that kept 758 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: occurring to me which was really funny, which is like 759 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,920 Speaker 1: just the trouble you get into if you just assume 760 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:26,320 Speaker 1: or try to infer religious beliefs and practices from the 761 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: canonical traditions or scripture of a religion, it would be 762 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,279 Speaker 1: like trying to do you think you could infer what 763 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 1: Christians believe just by like looking at passages in the Bible. 764 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, if you just draw one sometimes read it 765 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: out of context. Yeah, it can. You could. You could 766 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 1: make all sorts of of of of blanket statements, you know, 767 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: in terms of thinking about um, about illness as uh 768 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: and disease as being a martyrdom Um. I'm I'm reminded 769 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: of something from from from from later centuries in UM 770 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: in European tradition, the the Eisenheim altarpiece by Matthias Grunwald. Uh. 771 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: This would have been the the early sixteenth century. But 772 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,320 Speaker 1: these are famous depictions in which we see Christ himself 773 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 1: uh suffering from some sort of skin disease. Uh that 774 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: that I believe is thought to be ergotism. But but 775 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 1: in these cases of physical disease, physical ailment. It takes on, 776 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: you know, the trappings of holy suffering. Well, yeah, that's 777 00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: a really good point. And actually this is a thing 778 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,799 Speaker 1: that Sarns mentioned. I I skipped over it, But there 779 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 1: is a part where he points out that actually thinking 780 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: of death from plague as as a form of martyrdom 781 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,759 Speaker 1: is not totally unique to to Islam. There's all. There 782 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 1: are also Christian traditions that characterize plague death as a martyrdom. 783 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: They're not they're not extremely common in Christianity, but he cites, 784 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 1: for example, Cyprian who apparently held this view that you 785 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,399 Speaker 1: could be a martyr after dying from plague, or maybe 786 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,319 Speaker 1: not plague specifically, I'm not sure, but from certainly from 787 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:09,160 Speaker 1: epidemic disease. Another interesting point of similarity I was noticing 788 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: is and reading about Sterns and then thinking about some 789 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 1: of the stuff we talked about in the last episode. 790 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:18,280 Speaker 1: Uh was the idea of of public demonstrations in response 791 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:23,360 Speaker 1: to plague, like public processions of various kinds. For example, 792 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: Sterns writes that a common response to plague in Muslim 793 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 1: cities throughout the Middle East was for people to go 794 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,759 Speaker 1: outside the city and fast and pray in groups. Uh. 795 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 1: And this is he says, similar to how Muslims might 796 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: often appeal for deliverance from other disasters, non disease disasters 797 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: like drought. You know, they might gather outside the city 798 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 1: to fast and pray for rain. But there's another thing 799 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: I really take away from these discussions, which is something 800 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 1: that that Sterns emphasizes in this paper, uh, which is 801 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: that there's still a lot to learn and that is 802 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 1: potentially available to learn. Uh. Not just like is is 803 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: definitely lost to history, because he says there are plenty 804 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:10,280 Speaker 1: of plague treatises from the time period, especially reflecting Jewish 805 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 1: and Muslim views that he says quotes still languish in manuscript. 806 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 1: So I think what that would mean is that there 807 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 1: are cases where we have some kind of artifact. Original 808 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:24,120 Speaker 1: manuscripts do exist, but they are waiting for for scholars 809 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: to get to them. Basically, we're waiting on them to 810 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: be edited and translated. So there's still a lot more 811 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: to learn about the period. So he suspects these will 812 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 1: probably further tell against blanket generalizations of religious responses and 813 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,839 Speaker 1: might reveal more and more internal diversity of thought. Yeah, 814 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,120 Speaker 1: because if this is it is true that basically within 815 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,479 Speaker 1: any of these faiths we're discussing, you had the same 816 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 1: sort of arguments going on, the same sort of of discussions, 817 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 1: then that will just be further illuminated through the translations 818 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,480 Speaker 1: of these in the in the saving of these old texts. Yeah, Now, 819 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: one thing I wanted to come back to before we 820 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 1: wrap it up is that paper I quoted at the 821 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,280 Speaker 1: beginning of the episode, the paper by nu Quat Varlik 822 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 1: from the Journal of World History in called from bett 823 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: Noir to Limala, Constantinople, Plagues, medicine and the early modern 824 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,760 Speaker 1: Ottoman state. And so in this paper she she traces 825 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: an interesting history. So she makes an argument that within 826 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,320 Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire, so this would be the Muslim Empire 827 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: based out of Anatolia modern day Turkey, that eventually spreads 828 00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,719 Speaker 1: and and controls much of the Middle East and North 829 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: Africa and parts of eastern Europe. She says that there 830 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 1: is a transformation over time of how plague is conceptualized 831 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,239 Speaker 1: and this this happens especially in the sixteenth century, and 832 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,560 Speaker 1: this is something that's really important to consider too. We've 833 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,240 Speaker 1: been talking about trying to appreciate the nuances within religious 834 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 1: communities and the internal diversity. But also it's important to 835 00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 1: remember how views even of a single religious community change 836 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: over time. So she says that before the sixteenth century, 837 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,480 Speaker 1: plague is seen mostly in religious terms, like we've been 838 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,920 Speaker 1: talking about with the quote, with the general outlines of 839 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,840 Speaker 1: an Islamic plague cosmology, which had God and divine agency 840 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,160 Speaker 1: at its very core. And so under this view, like 841 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,400 Speaker 1: we've been saying, most the most common belief is that 842 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,840 Speaker 1: epidemic diseases were sent directly from God and only God 843 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: had the power to alleviate your suffering. Uh. Though within 844 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: this supernatural framework, of course, you could appeal to other 845 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,680 Speaker 1: supernatural interventions, such as the intercession of saints. And that 846 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:36,759 Speaker 1: makes me think about the story we started with with 847 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,120 Speaker 1: the uh, you know, the saintly figure in green, and 848 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,160 Speaker 1: she writes in her conclusion quote. In this configuration, disease 849 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,040 Speaker 1: was seen as an unfamiliar and unruly presence, a presence 850 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,319 Speaker 1: that the Ottomans imagine themselves as having no control over, 851 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 1: even in the medical works of the era. This supernatural 852 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: vision was juxtaposed with the perplexing amalgamation of knowledge they 853 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,120 Speaker 1: had recourse to, which must have only confirmed perceived feelings 854 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,719 Speaker 1: of vulnerability. But then then after this, uh she she 855 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,719 Speaker 1: charts how during the sixteenth century especially, there is a 856 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,040 Speaker 1: pretty rapid transformation of attitudes towards plague in the Ottoman Empire, 857 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:21,280 Speaker 1: including a shift from a majority supernatural view of disease 858 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,799 Speaker 1: to a much more natural and medical view of disease. So, 859 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,600 Speaker 1: instead of being viewed as as strange and unfamiliar threats 860 00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,759 Speaker 1: over which we had no control, diseases came to be 861 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,880 Speaker 1: seen more as a quote familiar aspect of the natural realm, 862 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,800 Speaker 1: just one part of how the world works, and something 863 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,680 Speaker 1: that we do have some kind of power to intervene against. 864 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,640 Speaker 1: And so this took the form of a new corpus 865 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,000 Speaker 1: of scientific knowledge about epidemic disease that was developed in 866 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,320 Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century. And and uh this would include 867 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,440 Speaker 1: discoveries about the causes, transmission, and prevention of infectious disease, 868 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,720 Speaker 1: and that this new knowledge led to changes in public 869 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,040 Speaker 1: health policy from the Ottoman state. It sort of took 870 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:07,920 Speaker 1: plague from being a predominantly supernatural issue and made it 871 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,560 Speaker 1: instead a political problem. But that does seem the healthier 872 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,360 Speaker 1: trajective for things to take, you know, to to go 873 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,920 Speaker 1: from the supernatural to the the idea that, yes, this 874 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,319 Speaker 1: is something that can be managed on some level. Yeah. 875 00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:24,040 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to think also though that um. I mean, 876 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,440 Speaker 1: among all of these religious communities, Christians, Jews, and Muslims 877 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:35,640 Speaker 1: all still today have religious um approaches to disease, even 878 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,960 Speaker 1: if they would probably rely on science based medicine as 879 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,640 Speaker 1: the primary intervention and way to prevent disease and and 880 00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,719 Speaker 1: and heal yourself from disease if you do catch it. Uh. 881 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 1: It's interesting that like it, uh, the the introduction of 882 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,600 Speaker 1: science based medicine is the primary effective way of combating 883 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:59,799 Speaker 1: disease has not removed the religious response to disease, right right, 884 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,520 Speaker 1: I mean, all of these communities still have religious thoughts 885 00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,399 Speaker 1: about epidemics and still pray about them and all that. 886 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,279 Speaker 1: I guess another thing that's just this whole discussion really 887 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: drives home is how amazingly lucky we are in terms 888 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,520 Speaker 1: of the medical interventions that exist today. I mean, you know, 889 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,879 Speaker 1: we everybody's exhausted living through a pandemic for the past 890 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,640 Speaker 1: however many god awful months this thing has been. But 891 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,520 Speaker 1: I mean, we're we're so lucky to have the kind 892 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 1: of the vaccines and the other interventions that we have 893 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,359 Speaker 1: today that we're just not on the table for for 894 00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,520 Speaker 1: people in the fourteenth century. Yeah. Absolutely. By the way, 895 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:42,160 Speaker 1: earlier I mentioned a Polish language anti Semitic poster, and 896 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 1: I just wanted to throw in a little more information 897 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,120 Speaker 1: on this because I kind of referred to it in passing. 898 00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:49,440 Speaker 1: But this is the post. You can find at the 899 00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,840 Speaker 1: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's website at u s h 900 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,400 Speaker 1: g M M dot org um, where it's labeled anti 901 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,920 Speaker 1: Semitic poster published in Poland in March nineteen one. Quote. 902 00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,799 Speaker 1: An anti Semitic poster published in Poland in March ninety one. 903 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 1: The caption reads Jews our life, they cause typhus. Uh. 904 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:13,799 Speaker 1: This German published poster was intended to instill fear of 905 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,360 Speaker 1: Jews among Christian polls unquote. So I just wanted to 906 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:23,279 Speaker 1: provide additional, uh, additional backstory on on that particular post 907 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 1: roads referring to, and you can look it up if 908 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,040 Speaker 1: you visit this website. All Right, Well, this has been 909 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:33,000 Speaker 1: a fun multipart examination here, and uh, I believe we're 910 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,080 Speaker 1: gonna move on to other topics at this point, but 911 00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:36,799 Speaker 1: we would love to hear from everyone out there. If 912 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,320 Speaker 1: you have particular insight, uh, if these episodes have touched 913 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:44,040 Speaker 1: on an area of expertise or or interest and you 914 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,839 Speaker 1: would like to weigh in, then by all means, we'd 915 00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 1: love to hear from you, and it's not impossible that 916 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,799 Speaker 1: we could return to this topic if it looks like 917 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,360 Speaker 1: there's some some interesting angles, uh that that need further 918 00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,200 Speaker 1: exploration in the meantime, if you would like to check 919 00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,600 Speaker 1: out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you 920 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:01,000 Speaker 1: will find find them in the Stuff to Blow your 921 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,480 Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed which you will get wherever you happen 922 00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,840 Speaker 1: to grab your podcasts. We have core episodes on Tuesdays 923 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:12,440 Speaker 1: and Thursdays, we have listener mail on Monday's Artifact on Wednesdays, 924 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,280 Speaker 1: and on Friday we do a little Weird House Cinema. 925 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,360 Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most of the science 926 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,040 Speaker 1: and just talk about a strange film. And on the 927 00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,800 Speaker 1: weekends we do a vault episode. Huge thanks as always 928 00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,239 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 929 00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,320 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 930 00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,680 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other to suggest topic for 931 00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,000 Speaker 1: the future, just to say hello, You can email us 932 00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:44,720 Speaker 1: at contact at Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. 933 00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,280 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind. It's production of I Heart Radio. 934 00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,000 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio usit the iHeart 935 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,759 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your 936 00:55:52,800 --> 00:56:06,680 Speaker 1: favorite shows by mothers by many pressing the foot p