Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know. You never know stories of
Speaker 1: things we don't know the answer too. Well. Hi there,
Speaker 1: welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. We're the
Speaker 1: guys who tackle unsolved mysteries and solve the heck out
Speaker 1: of them. Guys. Yeah, we're the guys and gang. Sorry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I am joined as always by Devin and Steve. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so let's just dive head first into another mystery. Okay,
Speaker 1: for I forget. This is a listener suggested episode, So
Speaker 1: I want to give a big shout out to Ash
Speaker 1: from England. Thanks. Ash. Wait, if we're a gang, do
Speaker 1: we have hand signs? Have hand signs, have colors? We
Speaker 1: have goodnape like this and then this one with a finger.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and there's a bird. Okay, alright, So, so
Speaker 1: our mystery this week Dorothy Arnold. Some of you may
Speaker 1: have heard of Dorothy Arnold. This is actually, um a
Speaker 1: hundred years ago kind of a huge thing and it
Speaker 1: got worldwide publicity. Let me talk a little bit about her.
Speaker 1: Dorothy Harriett Camille Arnold. Was I know grandma and grandma's
Speaker 1: names or something like that. Yeah, her mother had like
Speaker 1: five names. That's kind of a rich people thing, I think.
Speaker 1: But anyway, she was the daughter of Francis and Mary Arnold.
Speaker 1: Francis Arnold was a stinking rich perfume and porter. Uh.
Speaker 1: They lived in a very posh Manhattan house just to
Speaker 1: block east of Central Park, very nice part of town.
Speaker 1: They were listed in the Social Register, which is a
Speaker 1: big deal for rich people. You probably, guys have probably
Speaker 1: heard of the Social Register, right, yeah, hell, you're on it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not to. Dorothy was a socialite, and definition of
Speaker 1: socialite is quote someone who was well known in fashionable
Speaker 1: society and spends a significant amount of time participating in
Speaker 1: social activities such as parties and other fashionable events. That's
Speaker 1: from Wikipedia. Parties, by the way, which none of us
Speaker 1: ever get invited to. Well, Steve does, obviously. Social Register.
Speaker 1: I said, to screw the mystery. I'm gonna spend the
Speaker 1: next hour just ranting about the one percent. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm cool. How about you? No, I think that's done.
Speaker 1: Ok alright, let's solve the mystery. Then back to Dorothy.
Speaker 1: On Monday December twelfth, nineteen ten, so hundred four years ago,
Speaker 1: Dorothy left the family house in the morning, saying that
Speaker 1: she was going to go shopping for a dress for
Speaker 1: her her sister's debutante. Yeah again, more more rich, socialized stuff.
Speaker 1: She was it wasn't even yeah exactly, so she had
Speaker 1: to have she had to obviously go buy a new
Speaker 1: dress for that. Yeah. Anyway, she left the house to
Speaker 1: go shopping and the family never saw her again. And
Speaker 1: this was this was a huge deal. I mean, got
Speaker 1: a lot of publicity and everybody was wanting what happened.
Speaker 1: It was all over the newspapers. Yeah, the family and
Speaker 1: their investigators were able to piece together her trail, at
Speaker 1: least some of her trail where she went before she disappeared.
Speaker 1: So first off, she went to a store at seven
Speaker 1: and fifth Avenue. Can we talk about New York and
Speaker 1: the way that they do streets and how confusing that is?
Speaker 1: Please yes, because I still see this and it's still
Speaker 1: confuses that it's it's it's it's avenues run one way
Speaker 1: in streets run the other. Is that correct? Kind of
Speaker 1: like Vancouver? You know you guys have been to the
Speaker 1: Coup Washington, Washington, Yes, yeah, yeah, it's like I don't
Speaker 1: I don't know which one is north south and which
Speaker 1: one is east west? But is it is avenues one
Speaker 1: way and streets the other, so I could literally be
Speaker 1: on Fifth and Fifth potentially. Yeah, I know, it just
Speaker 1: kind of dumb, but it is what it is. I
Speaker 1: don't think they're gonna just enraged so many New Yorkers
Speaker 1: the Waitland does it is so much better. I know
Speaker 1: names of people that nobody knows. Yeah, I know. Well,
Speaker 1: so anyway, I've taken the liberty of printing up this map,
Speaker 1: which I got off a Google so you can see
Speaker 1: the upper right hand corner where she started from and
Speaker 1: the place where she went to buy. She stopped at
Speaker 1: the store and bought half a pound of chocolate, which
Speaker 1: is down here, which is five yeah, and that's two
Speaker 1: and a half miles away, so she could hook it.
Speaker 1: But I didn't mention. By the way, Dorothy was twenty
Speaker 1: five and apparently like to walk, so she headed south
Speaker 1: to and a half miles and then headed back north
Speaker 1: to a bookstore. But you know, like that's an hour
Speaker 1: walk really, Yeah, you've got a day ye walk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's not in a huge harry or anything. She bought
Speaker 1: a half a pound of chocolate, brought half chocolate, and
Speaker 1: then she went to a bookstore. The bookstore is Brentano's, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, it was in an episode of Seinfeld.
Speaker 1: It was actually it was actually a New York Landmark
Speaker 1: bookstore for many, many years before it got absorbed by Borders.
Speaker 1: And I soon Borders is out of business right now
Speaker 1: but almost Yeah, actually, yeah, I can't think of the
Speaker 1: last time I saw brick and mortar Borders. Yeah, Bars
Speaker 1: of Noble somehow still around. Borders. Yeah, I think I've
Speaker 1: seen Borders in malls and that's the only place I've
Speaker 1: seen him, and that was years ago. This episode of
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast brought to you by Borders, brought to
Speaker 1: you by defunct bookstores. I'll be our next mysteries. What
Speaker 1: where did all the bookstores go? Oh? Anyway, so she
Speaker 1: stopped at this bookstore and bought a book by somebody
Speaker 1: you'd never heard of, Jane Calvin something. I did a
Speaker 1: google on her. I couldn't find anything. But anyway, apparently
Speaker 1: she was popular a hundred years ago. But she left
Speaker 1: the paper trail at these stores because she charged her
Speaker 1: purchases to the family accounts. Okay, both places, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I kind of a sweet dealer family. Of course, as
Speaker 1: I said, it was stinking rich. She got a hundred
Speaker 1: dollars in a monthly allowance, which is the equivalent of
Speaker 1: d and forty dollars today today's dollars. And you know,
Speaker 1: she had to pay did net to paying rent, didn't
Speaker 1: have to pay utilities, didn't net paper food. Plus she
Speaker 1: could go out opping and charge things to the family
Speaker 1: accounts on top of her allowance she had. I think
Speaker 1: I saw, I saw I mentioned that she had thirty
Speaker 1: or forty in her possession. Yeah, I think the family
Speaker 1: estimated she left the house. Yeah, I remember reading this.
Speaker 1: She had a day or two before gone out with friends,
Speaker 1: and I think she took her friends to a movie,
Speaker 1: and then they had gotten food afterwards, and she had
Speaker 1: gone to the bank and gotten thirty six dollars out
Speaker 1: of the bank, which seems like such a funny number
Speaker 1: to us today, But then was obviously a large sell
Speaker 1: of cats that was probably seven or eight hundred bucks,
Speaker 1: right and then and then they knew how much she
Speaker 1: should have approximately spent at these locations, so they figured
Speaker 1: she had about twenty five dollars give currency at that
Speaker 1: for that time period on her, which again is a
Speaker 1: pretty decent some money. It's you know, a couple hundred bucks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's not like, you know, runaway to the hills,
Speaker 1: finance the rest of your life money. You know, it's
Speaker 1: that weird middle ground. Yeah. Anyways, I think that's worth mentioning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: more on that later, but okay, anyway, so after the bookstore,
Speaker 1: she outside the bookstore, she ran into a friend of her,
Speaker 1: his name Gladys King, and they chatted for a bit,
Speaker 1: parted ways. And this wasn't about in the afternoon, according
Speaker 1: to Gladys, And that was the last time she was
Speaker 1: seen by anybody who knew her. She literally evaporated from
Speaker 1: the streets the last time. The last time wasn't It
Speaker 1: wasn't didn't. The story go that Gladys turned around a
Speaker 1: second time to wave goodbye and saw her at and
Speaker 1: sall basically a couple of blocks away or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, and so that was it. So yeah, she
Speaker 1: just sort of vanished from the earth into the history books.
Speaker 1: Over the following months, many people from across the country
Speaker 1: claimed to a senior because after the news got out,
Speaker 1: people were phoning in, phoning in tips from all around
Speaker 1: the country claiming they had senior uh and the family
Speaker 1: being rich, she had a lot of money, to actually
Speaker 1: send detectives out to follow up on all these aids,
Speaker 1: and so they were. They were mostly followed up on,
Speaker 1: and none of them panned out unfortunately. So when she
Speaker 1: didn't return home in the evening, her parents started calling
Speaker 1: all of her friends looking for Nobody knew what had
Speaker 1: happened to her. Now, now let me take a break here,
Speaker 1: before we were launching more history and theories. Here's a
Speaker 1: few things about her life just before the disappearance. And
Speaker 1: I'm talking about these things now because they'll have a
Speaker 1: little bearing later on the story. Okay, Number one, Dorothy
Speaker 1: was interested in being a writer, and she had actually
Speaker 1: written two short stories and submitted to a magazine called
Speaker 1: The Clures, which I've never heard of, but they're probably
Speaker 1: gone by now, and they were rejected, which left her
Speaker 1: feeling a bit depressed apparently, which I just think I was.
Speaker 1: Steph and I were chatting about this earlier, and I
Speaker 1: was just thinking, how, I guess cute and funny it
Speaker 1: is not to be, you know, the dismissive of this,
Speaker 1: the impact that this can have on someone, But how
Speaker 1: kind of cute and funny it is that she like
Speaker 1: submitted to papers and they got rejected. And she was like, well, shucks,
Speaker 1: my career as a writer is over. I know, it's
Speaker 1: like a little bit more persistence, yeah, or you know,
Speaker 1: maybe submit to another magazine that might be more interested
Speaker 1: in your writing style. She was aiming for the top only.
Speaker 1: But then again that you know, if you do the
Speaker 1: reading the readings on this. Her family knew that she
Speaker 1: was a writer, so there's all this talk about how
Speaker 1: they were mocking her for trying to write. Mclars is
Speaker 1: the only place that I think she submitted two to
Speaker 1: them and one to another magazine something like that. Let's
Speaker 1: think about nine. There are tons and tons of magazines
Speaker 1: and newspapers and rags around that you can submit to.
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to cast any aspersions on her,
Speaker 1: but I think that maybe a bit of her social
Speaker 1: status told her that she had to only go for
Speaker 1: these particular ones. Then I am from the upper class,
Speaker 1: so I must write for the New York You just
Speaker 1: cut my teeth and I'll get my stuff published wherever
Speaker 1: I can get it published, because that's the way. All
Speaker 1: of the good writers in this this world have gone
Speaker 1: about it well and currently got it published by crap people,
Speaker 1: and eventually they got better and clearly her problem was
Speaker 1: that I'm sure she was sending them on in under
Speaker 1: her own name instead of a male pseudonym. That's another
Speaker 1: good point, another point entirely. And I think the actually
Speaker 1: women writers were kind of accepted back in those days.
Speaker 1: They were not so much. There were some women writers.
Speaker 1: But when did suffrage happen? When did the suffrage movement? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this is I'm sorry, the nineteen thirties. No, no,
Speaker 1: it was the early nine hundreds, late eighteen hundreds. Okay,
Speaker 1: so but this is this is when all that's happening,
Speaker 1: and there's still a huge bit of massage is not
Speaker 1: the right word. It's some of that, and it's it's
Speaker 1: the old boys society, it's this and when clean the
Speaker 1: house and that's children. And that's why Dorothy was a socialite,
Speaker 1: because you know, I mean, you know, maybe maybe today
Speaker 1: she'd actually be doing something useful back and back in
Speaker 1: those days. And now you're rich and uh, you're not
Speaker 1: expected to actually do anything like become a dentist or
Speaker 1: a lawyer or anything like that, and that as a woman.
Speaker 1: If she had said it in under the name of
Speaker 1: Dawn instead of Dorothy, it might have gotten picked up
Speaker 1: they're like, well, Dog's not that great of a writer,
Speaker 1: but we'll publishing stuff. It's okay. Well, the thing about
Speaker 1: it is, too, is I forget what the title of
Speaker 1: one of the stores was. It was like there's something
Speaker 1: Phoenix or the like. It was like the point in
Speaker 1: the Flame. Yeah, and you know, I mean, if you
Speaker 1: want exactly what, it should have a title like pork
Speaker 1: Shop Hill. So what we're saying is she should have
Speaker 1: been submitting to Harlequin. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, she gave up. Obviously.
Speaker 1: I thought we didn't see the notes. It might have
Speaker 1: been quite brutal and just like you know, dear miss Arnold,
Speaker 1: thanks for submitting your excrescence. Please don't ever do that again.
Speaker 1: You don't know, yeah, we I mean, and I don't
Speaker 1: know if when they sent rejection letters, if they actually
Speaker 1: sent it back all marked up. I mean, that crush somebody.
Speaker 1: If somebody sent back your manuscript and they had taken
Speaker 1: the time to red pen it. I don't think they did.
Speaker 1: And I don't think they don't think they were even
Speaker 1: return your manuscript. I think they just sent you a letter.
Speaker 1: And but that's what I'm getting to the point of
Speaker 1: the way that it's portrayed. At how strongly she took
Speaker 1: the rejection. You would think that somebody had taken the
Speaker 1: time to red pen all of her work and send
Speaker 1: it back and say all of these things are wrong, no,
Speaker 1: thank you that, or you know, she was the daughter
Speaker 1: of a very wealthy family and was not used to
Speaker 1: being said no to good point, good, very good point.
Speaker 1: I mean just saying yeah. Or maybe she just a
Speaker 1: really bad writer and she just couldn't perceive this. But anyway,
Speaker 1: we're kind of getting off into the weeds too, all right,
Speaker 1: So I mentioned her her abortive writing career. Also, what
Speaker 1: else happened before she disappeared. Dorothy asked her father she
Speaker 1: could move out of the house and get an apartment
Speaker 1: in Greenwich Village where she could write and be all
Speaker 1: artistic and stuff and some day meet Bob Dylan. Yeah
Speaker 1: that that said no. It was twentieth century, so yeah,
Speaker 1: he said no, And he said something on the order
Speaker 1: of a good writer can write anywhere, so you can
Speaker 1: write in your bedroom, honey. I felt like that's a
Speaker 1: great answer, though, I mean, okay, we've already gone on
Speaker 1: the weeds once, but I'm gonna stand up for dad
Speaker 1: here a little bit. I already pay for all of
Speaker 1: this kid's stuff, and I give her an allowance. And
Speaker 1: by the way, living at home is free, and at
Speaker 1: home is relatively free. But now you want to get
Speaker 1: an apartment, which means you want me to pay for
Speaker 1: set apartment and all of your bills. Well, yeah, and yeah,
Speaker 1: and on top of that, you know, I think back
Speaker 1: in those days that a woman moving out of the
Speaker 1: house before she actually found a husband and got married.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, in those days, if you
Speaker 1: were not actively courting someone suitable to your parents liking,
Speaker 1: you were probably not doing super well according to your parents. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was. She was actually courting somebody. We'll talk about
Speaker 1: that a little bit here. But he was he was
Speaker 1: not suitable parents Yeah, yeah, his his. Her dad did
Speaker 1: make a remark on on the lines of he wouldn't
Speaker 1: mind her dating more guys at all, just not worthless
Speaker 1: guys or something. Let's talk about. Yeah, so, speaking of
Speaker 1: that guy. In September nine, about three months before she disappeared,
Speaker 1: Dorothy told her parents she was going to go visit
Speaker 1: a former college classmate in Boston. She did go to Boston,
Speaker 1: but she didn't hang much with her classmate, but she
Speaker 1: spent the week with a guy named George Griscombe Jr. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think it's Griscom, might might be Grissom
Speaker 1: or something like that. Let's go for Griscomb. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: He was from a rich family in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They
Speaker 1: were all proper about it. They stayed in separate hotels,
Speaker 1: not just separate rooms, but separate hotels. Uh. So maybe
Speaker 1: no copulation occurred, We don't know, but a lot of
Speaker 1: the Dorothy Arnold diarists out there think that it did,
Speaker 1: and it forms the basis for a lot of their
Speaker 1: ideas about why she disappeared. So a little bit more
Speaker 1: about him, George Grissom, Griscomb. She was seeing him, and
Speaker 1: obviously there was something going on there, but Dorothy's father
Speaker 1: basically forbade him from forbade her from seeing him because
Speaker 1: even though he was rich, he came from a good family,
Speaker 1: he was considered to be by Dorothy Mr. Arnold, to
Speaker 1: be a worthless Yeah. I mean he was. He was
Speaker 1: like forty something to right and living at home and
Speaker 1: kind of just like living off of his parents money
Speaker 1: pretty much. I wasn't earning anything for himself. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: had heard that he Um, he went to law school
Speaker 1: and had a law degree and was was working as
Speaker 1: a contract lawyer, so doing contract law, but apparently not
Speaker 1: working too terribly hard. And still you know, if you're
Speaker 1: forty two and still living at home, you're really not
Speaker 1: very ambitious, let's face. Yeah, well, sorry, you're not forty two,
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, yeah, he wasn't not making it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks Joe. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Feel better about my
Speaker 1: life now. I'm not going to go throw myself off
Speaker 1: a bridge like Dorothy did. Oh no, wait, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: you're getting a ohet of the ending. No, she didn't
Speaker 1: really throw herself up a bridge. So George was not
Speaker 1: a suitable suitor, not in the eyes of Dad. Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 1: But the folks didn't actually find out about this Boston
Speaker 1: thing with with Griscom until after the disappearance, when apparently
Speaker 1: the Boston police discovered that Dorothy had pawned five hundred
Speaker 1: bucks worth of jewelry to pay for her hotel room.
Speaker 1: And this is going to observe that if copulation actually
Speaker 1: had occurred, you would think that Griscombe would have paid
Speaker 1: her hotel bill at least as a gentleman. You think
Speaker 1: the classic well, you know, and and he didn't sound
Speaker 1: like he had a lot of class. Well he might
Speaker 1: have been on a short least. Maybe the folks didn't
Speaker 1: give him a huge allowance. I think I think we
Speaker 1: need to back up here a little bit. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think we've missed a salient point in this story, which
Speaker 1: is so she disappeared and then now we're talking about
Speaker 1: like some of the investigation that found Griscomb. But I
Speaker 1: think what's important for people to understand is the cops
Speaker 1: weren't brought in until three weeks later. Two weeks later.
Speaker 1: It was weeks later because they were keeping it under
Speaker 1: the rug. They called their lawyer, and the lawyer looked
Speaker 1: for her. Not the lawyer didn't. He hired a private investigation.
Speaker 1: He actually did a lot of look in too. But
Speaker 1: but the thing is is that I think people don't
Speaker 1: understand this. This didn't become a full fledged investigation right away.
Speaker 1: She disappeared. They didn't say anything because there's that weird
Speaker 1: thing that cops for a while, because you know, they
Speaker 1: probably probably were thinking that there could be something scandalous here,
Speaker 1: like they're gonna search for and then when she turns up,
Speaker 1: she's going to be like, you know, shacked up in
Speaker 1: a hotel room with some dude something like that. But
Speaker 1: I want to keep they wanted to keep it quiet.
Speaker 1: There was all kinds of rumors of of weird stuff
Speaker 1: that they did. Somebody called the house or one of
Speaker 1: her girlfriends called the house tonight she disappeared and her
Speaker 1: mother said, yeah, she's here, Oh can I talk to her? Um, No,
Speaker 1: she's asleep in bed with a headache or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is I mean, there's a lot of weird things
Speaker 1: about this story, and I think that it's that natural
Speaker 1: tendency of people with money to try to hide anything
Speaker 1: that's going on. But it's it's an important point for
Speaker 1: people to understand that it wasn't suddenly the police were
Speaker 1: investigating her disappearance. There's a time lag here, whre was
Speaker 1: always a detriment acord investigation. Yeah, well hell yeah, but
Speaker 1: according to some accounts the time leg was most accounts
Speaker 1: actually the time leg was six weeks before they talked
Speaker 1: to the cops. Yeah, but they well, yeah, they supposedly
Speaker 1: hired Pinkerton detect which is fairly famous agency as it
Speaker 1: turns out. Yeah, although actually in a in a newspaper
Speaker 1: account that I read of it. The newspaper account kind
Speaker 1: of kind of made it clear that the police had
Speaker 1: actually been brought in much earlier, like a week after. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he didn't. They didn't actually go public until about
Speaker 1: six weeks after. Okay, See, when I was the articles
Speaker 1: I came across, insinuated that there it had been multiple weeks,
Speaker 1: but that might be just when it was released. It's
Speaker 1: also hard to tell, you know, again, Stephen, I were
Speaker 1: talking about this earlier, and we were talking about the
Speaker 1: fact that, you know, late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: all of these articles kind of just read like People magazine,
Speaker 1: do you know. And it may be, you know, slight
Speaker 1: differences in the writing styles things like that, but a
Speaker 1: lot of it is just kind of, well, we heard
Speaker 1: from a source that so and so knows that so
Speaker 1: and so knows that so and so said, blah blah
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. You know, it's it reads like a
Speaker 1: gossip column kind of more than virtual I we're used to.
Speaker 1: But I was going to talk about this in a
Speaker 1: little bit, and there's this article from the Pittsburgh Press
Speaker 1: that came out in nineteen fourteen that was a big
Speaker 1: game changer for the whole thing, and it was like,
Speaker 1: and the article contradicts itself, it's kind of incoming. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it kind of kind of protradicts itself. But anyway, more
Speaker 1: on that later. Alright, So, the Arnold family asked a
Speaker 1: friend who was also a lawyer, whose name is His
Speaker 1: name was John Keith, and they hired him to try
Speaker 1: to find Dorothy so Keith. Dorothy Keith was a lawyer
Speaker 1: and not a private eye, so I think I suspect
Speaker 1: that they hired him because of attorney client privilege. That
Speaker 1: would make sense. Yeah, they wanted to keep it low
Speaker 1: and plus he was a family friend, so he could
Speaker 1: be expected to keep it on the d L. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and as we said, they didn't want publicity. They reportedly
Speaker 1: didn't tell the police for six weeks, although maybe it
Speaker 1: was less than that. But the police managed to keep
Speaker 1: quiet about the whole thing. Although that's kind of surprising
Speaker 1: because police even these days are kind of corrupted New York. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they are not, like, you know, sell information to reporters.
Speaker 1: But that would be a good reason to keep him out.
Speaker 1: So anyway, John Keith came over to the house and
Speaker 1: searched her room looking for clues apparently all of her
Speaker 1: stuff was their clothes and everything else for the one
Speaker 1: outfit she was wearing. Right, of course, yeah she had
Speaker 1: to go out. She couldn't go out naked for christ sake.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, unless she could, but yeah she didn't. That
Speaker 1: would be looked upon with this favor. But he found
Speaker 1: some burned papers in the fireplace, which everybody assumed were
Speaker 1: just the manuscripts that ned had been rejected by the clures.
Speaker 1: You know again, come on, Dorothy, you know, man up.
Speaker 1: Send that to somebody else under a phony name, Send
Speaker 1: a cracked man. They'd accept it. H they found brochurest cracked,
Speaker 1: they probably would. What else is the one thing that
Speaker 1: peaks a little interest is I have some brochures apparently
Speaker 1: for steamliners to to Europe, because remember in those days
Speaker 1: they didn't have seven seventy sevens. You had to actually
Speaker 1: take a slow boat. Um. And I feel a lot
Speaker 1: of speculation then and even today that she wanted to
Speaker 1: run off and joined Griscom or somebody else and just
Speaker 1: you know, start a new life. Maybe so John Keith
Speaker 1: went checked hospitals, jails, borges in New York, Philadelphia and
Speaker 1: Boston looking for her body or whatever. And he found nothing. Finally,
Speaker 1: he suggested hiring the Pinkerton Detective Agency, which is still
Speaker 1: in operation today and is a very famous historic investigation service.
Speaker 1: Just throwing that out there. Oh yeah, Pinkerton Investigations, and
Speaker 1: you will find some stuff. Yeah, I'm expecting them to
Speaker 1: call us one of these days. We got a really
Speaker 1: tough mystery here. We just can't crack. Since we solve everything,
Speaker 1: they're not going to call us, because you know what's
Speaker 1: gonna happen. It's Joe's gonna answer their phony school, dull
Speaker 1: the uper Cobra, send me my money and hang up.
Speaker 1: Well that's why we don't give Joe the phone. I
Speaker 1: could just picture that though. Yeah, get up my get
Speaker 1: up my magnifying glass. I see you see top of here.
Speaker 1: It looks like nothing, but it's actually a chupa cobra track. Yeah, yeah, okay, anyway,
Speaker 1: half of that. So anyway, the Pickerton's did more the
Speaker 1: same They searched hospitals, more the same thing, you know,
Speaker 1: except that they were able to cast a wider net
Speaker 1: since they weren't one single attorney. Uh and actually, and
Speaker 1: after they thought about the tickets and everything, they sent
Speaker 1: some detectives to Europe to look for also, and so
Speaker 1: they spent a lot of money on this. You know,
Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta raise something that I was reading
Speaker 1: the newspaper accounts and the stuff about the Pinkerton's, and
Speaker 1: of course they couldn't send somebody to Europe to look
Speaker 1: for her getting off the boat because they couldn't get
Speaker 1: there fast enough. So I had to wire her description.
Speaker 1: So I know what this woman looks like according to
Speaker 1: a written description, and they find a number of women
Speaker 1: who they think could look like her, but who say
Speaker 1: they aren't her. Okay, well, one a written description of
Speaker 1: somebody is very far flowing from what they actually look like.
Speaker 1: And too if I walk up and I say, excuse me,
Speaker 1: are you Dorothy and you go, no, dude, I'm Jane,
Speaker 1: I'm from Illinois. Oh sorry, and let's move about your business.
Speaker 1: How effective of a search means? Is this? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: this this is very true. I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 1: back in those days, they couldn't exactly email some photos.
Speaker 1: That's that's what I mean, is that they send people
Speaker 1: to look for people getting off the boats. It's like, um,
Speaker 1: this doesn't seem like it's got a high probability of success.
Speaker 1: I can see that. In Europe is kind of a
Speaker 1: big place. Man, looking for people is really hard back
Speaker 1: in those days. Looking for people to day is hard,
Speaker 1: I know. And you can email stuff and like make
Speaker 1: things viral, and I least people in crowds that I know. Yeah, like,
Speaker 1: where were you? Um? Two feet in front of you? Really,
Speaker 1: I was hiding from you. I never see you again,
Speaker 1: obviously in plain sight. So they looked in Europe because
Speaker 1: of the steamliner, right, were there any other reasons that
Speaker 1: they found to look in New York? I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry in Europe? Yeah, Well there was one other guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was George Griscom, who it turns out I went
Speaker 1: to Italy. I'm not sure exactly when he went over there,
Speaker 1: but he was in Italy with his folks, tootling around,
Speaker 1: so that his parents. Yeah, he was with his parents. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He They Telegramedhi. Apparently they got ahold of him, and
Speaker 1: he telegrammed them back and said he didn't know anything
Speaker 1: about what happened to Dorothy and they were buying it.
Speaker 1: So apparently mother Mary and her older brother John went
Speaker 1: to Naples to confront him. No, not the mother's older brother,
Speaker 1: but Dorothy's older yeah, exactly, her son John Kay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he he denied it, and he gave them a
Speaker 1: letter that he'd received from her in December apparently, although
Speaker 1: in some accounts it says that he gave them a
Speaker 1: like a sheaf of letters, Yeah, like a case of them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was what I had read, yeah, or a packet
Speaker 1: or something like that. But so the letter, this is
Speaker 1: this last letter I mentioned that she had just gotten.
Speaker 1: She just been rejected by McClure's again, that she was
Speaker 1: kind of depressed over the whole thing, and that, of
Speaker 1: course fields speculation that she may have committed suicide because
Speaker 1: she was so down over this whole thing about not
Speaker 1: getting your stories accepted. Yeah. And the hard thing with
Speaker 1: christ is I spent a lot of time looking at him,
Speaker 1: trying to pin down when he went to Italy, because
Speaker 1: I thought that's what I was curious about too. He
Speaker 1: murdered her, Yeah, and so I was like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: when the heck did he leave the country? Wasn't able
Speaker 1: to find out. All you can ever find is when
Speaker 1: he came back. Nothing says when he left, which either
Speaker 1: means that a reporters just didn't think to ask, or
Speaker 1: be he just never said how long he had been
Speaker 1: on holiday. Yeah, I guess I got the sense that
Speaker 1: he had been gone for a while, and finding out
Speaker 1: that his he went with his family kind of makes
Speaker 1: his story less suspicious to me. Yeah, because it wasn't
Speaker 1: like he was escaping or anything like that. It also
Speaker 1: sounds like if he was over there and she was
Speaker 1: sending him a bunch of letters to the point where
Speaker 1: he had a whole sheaf of them or a whole
Speaker 1: packet um that he was over there for a while well,
Speaker 1: and that he they had found letters in her possession
Speaker 1: right that had a foreign so they could even so
Speaker 1: I would, I would suspect that he had been overseas
Speaker 1: for a while. There's been three months between their their
Speaker 1: rendezvous in September and then when he disappeared in December.
Speaker 1: That's a three month time span. If you write every
Speaker 1: couple of days, that's going to be a stack of
Speaker 1: letters after a couple of months. Yeah. Well, I I
Speaker 1: was kind of assuming that that he was not hanging
Speaker 1: onto every letter ever that she wrote, but just the
Speaker 1: ones that he had arrived in Europe, and maybe the
Speaker 1: ones were maybe the ones while he was in the
Speaker 1: stage We're back home in a drawer. But I assumed
Speaker 1: that the ones in that sheep were just once that
Speaker 1: he'd received in New York. And let's let's be again, like,
Speaker 1: let's reiterate the fact that those letters come over on ships. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they take a while. It takes a while to get
Speaker 1: there back. So if you have a couple, even just
Speaker 1: like five or six, that that represents a couple of weeks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and so he probably that last letter, probably got
Speaker 1: that in who knows, mid to late December, maybe even January.
Speaker 1: And by the way, this competition took place in January
Speaker 1: two not two thousand, January nineteen eleven, yes, yeah, ok,
Speaker 1: And she disappeared in December December. It seemed unlikely to
Speaker 1: me that he was in the States at that point,
Speaker 1: but you know, who knows. Okay, So anyway, we're back.
Speaker 1: We're gonna resume the history just a one more little thing,
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna talk about some theories about what happened.
Speaker 1: So anyway, at about six weeks after the disappearance, the
Speaker 1: police persuaded Frances Arnold her dad to hold a press conference,
Speaker 1: and he did, and by this time he had been
Speaker 1: convinced that she was dead, and so He said at
Speaker 1: the press conference that he thought that she had been
Speaker 1: murdered in Central Park and thrown into the reservoir, and
Speaker 1: so everybody in town started drinking bottled water, just like
Speaker 1: in Oregon. Yeah, and then uh, but but there was
Speaker 1: one problem with that theory was, as the police pointed
Speaker 1: out to him that it was you know, the temperature
Speaker 1: was like twenty two degrees or twenty one degrees on
Speaker 1: the day that she disappeared, so and the lake was
Speaker 1: frozen over, and people have been skating on him. So
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why he's so convinced. He was so
Speaker 1: convinced that she had been murdered and much less thrown
Speaker 1: him lake. He was so convinced that she was dead
Speaker 1: that in his will, like she later no, she was
Speaker 1: mentioned specifically that he left no provisions for her because
Speaker 1: he had been sufficiently convinced that she was dead. He said,
Speaker 1: in fact, I am intentionally not leaving anything for her
Speaker 1: because in my mind, she's she's dead, which is like
Speaker 1: a step extra, right. It's not only saying like, well,
Speaker 1: my daughter is dead, so I'm just not going to
Speaker 1: mention her. It's saying, you know, I'm going to take
Speaker 1: the time out in my will to say, you know,
Speaker 1: she's absolutely dead, So that to me is a little
Speaker 1: pinky well, and and we're we're about to get into theories, right,
Speaker 1: so let me just throw out this random one. And
Speaker 1: this is fueled by my extensive knowledge of New York
Speaker 1: socialite behavior for watching castle is that they do all
Speaker 1: kinds of weird things to protect the family name. So
Speaker 1: if he is so convinced that she's dead, how do
Speaker 1: we know he didn't have her knocked Well, we don't
Speaker 1: because if he's he's like, I'm just gonna make a provision.
Speaker 1: She she was thrown into the reservoir. That's because that's
Speaker 1: what the guy that I hired her to knock her
Speaker 1: off for whatever offense he deemed so terrible to get
Speaker 1: rid of her for he'd said he had done. And
Speaker 1: then the guy goes to throw her in it's frozen over,
Speaker 1: and then he drags her somewhere else. But I did,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's it's plausible like this guy
Speaker 1: was from the start, he was dam here from the start.
Speaker 1: It sounded like he was convinced she was dead. Well,
Speaker 1: not from the start, I mean, but I think I
Speaker 1: think as time went by, he just became convinced that
Speaker 1: she was dead for god knows what reason, but he
Speaker 1: it's and and again this is the newspaper recounts, which
Speaker 1: makes it difficult. But he seemed to be one of
Speaker 1: the first ones that I noticed saying I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: she's dead. Yeah. Now, maybe that's him being practical and
Speaker 1: you know, detaching himself in the situation because his daughter
Speaker 1: is missing and he's got no other choice but to
Speaker 1: presume she's dead. Or maybe it's well I sort of know,
Speaker 1: and let me just lean towards this theory and see
Speaker 1: if anybody else follows me with it. Yeah, well he
Speaker 1: and this well, this guy knew his daughter pretty well probably,
Speaker 1: I mean, most people know their their family members really well.
Speaker 1: So the options like she she like says, just left
Speaker 1: just for whatever reason, we just ran away from home.
Speaker 1: You know, he may have known her well enough to
Speaker 1: know that that could never happen. Like for example, like
Speaker 1: look at her behavior regarding her literary rejections. She didn't
Speaker 1: have a lot of stick to itiveness. I mean, he
Speaker 1: maybe understood that she was not. She didn't have what's
Speaker 1: the word that I'm thinking about here, The results a
Speaker 1: huspa to to actually go out and make a life
Speaker 1: of her own. He probably figured that if she did
Speaker 1: run away from home, she would have been back two weeks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she would be like me running away from home and
Speaker 1: making it halfway across the block and sitting there being like,
Speaker 1: why are they coming out? Yeah, this is such a
Speaker 1: long walk on, I'm tired and hurry. She could have
Speaker 1: There were some theories that she'd like, you know, had
Speaker 1: an accident and had amnesia and she was in a
Speaker 1: hospital somewhere, you know, and but obviously they'd searched all that,
Speaker 1: so that possibility was ruled out, you know, and there's
Speaker 1: not so there's not that many possibilities, and his mind
Speaker 1: probably it's like, she's not she hasn't come back, and
Speaker 1: I know she would be back by now. She was
Speaker 1: still alive and it didn't have amnesia, so she's got
Speaker 1: to be dead. And she didn't just up and die
Speaker 1: because she was in good health. So that means you know,
Speaker 1: New York there was there was it was a dangerous
Speaker 1: place back in those days. It's very possible somebody, but anyway,
Speaker 1: we're getting ahead of her. Okay, let's talk about theories.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff out there. There's actually still
Speaker 1: even today, many years later, there's still people talking about this.
Speaker 1: I got I want to do. There's a website called
Speaker 1: web Slewice. I've seen those guys. I almost made it
Speaker 1: to an entire thread and on for years. I mean
Speaker 1: it was a long thread, and boy, I mean and
Speaker 1: I found a few useful little nuggets in there, but
Speaker 1: holy crap, I had the way it too, just a
Speaker 1: ton of bills. I think that's why Steve and I
Speaker 1: just don't do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I found that.
Speaker 1: They I will read about the first dozen and then
Speaker 1: I quit. Yeah. If I can find a link to
Speaker 1: like three good things in a row, I will link
Speaker 1: it and we'll read it. But pretty much other than that,
Speaker 1: I just can't. Yeah, it's the issue with all forms.
Speaker 1: But we've we've gone into that. Oh yeah, but anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of theorizing on those, and I'll talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about that later. But actually, as this
Speaker 1: thread went on that I was reading too, it's like
Speaker 1: the one theory that that came out, it seemed to
Speaker 1: come out on top that more and more than seem
Speaker 1: to believe in was our theory number one, which is
Speaker 1: a Dorothy ran away to join the circus, not the circus,
Speaker 1: but ran away. Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly to the point
Speaker 1: where all these all these people are you know, lots
Speaker 1: of loss. Of these people are saying, you know, I
Speaker 1: just I just I hope she just really had a
Speaker 1: wonderful life, you know, in YadA YadA, and it's like, dudes, really,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and it's kind of a group
Speaker 1: thing kind of thing, because there were other theories that
Speaker 1: were kind of prevalent, and then and then more and
Speaker 1: more of them seemed to trend to this whole that
Speaker 1: she ran away to get away from her dominaring what
Speaker 1: is this? Yeah, and so in this interpretation, she was
Speaker 1: chafing on her domineering father, although it's not necessarily clear
Speaker 1: that he was domineering. I mean, there's a lot there
Speaker 1: was there stuff like on her Wikipedia page and there
Speaker 1: was a lot of this on this particular webs loose
Speaker 1: thread that her family was just they were completely mean
Speaker 1: to her. They tormented her. That was the whole thing
Speaker 1: about finding out about her writing. Yeah, just steering at
Speaker 1: her and mocking at her. But there's not you know,
Speaker 1: there's not much evidence in that. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: stuff kind of like it gets to the point where
Speaker 1: in this thread, for example, it built to this point
Speaker 1: where they're saying, you know, it started out with all
Speaker 1: they're teasing or they're mocking her, and then it got
Speaker 1: to the point where they were so vicious towards her.
Speaker 1: I don't blame her for leaving, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're all just they just convinced themselves of this. Well,
Speaker 1: and the only the only bit of evidence that really
Speaker 1: I've seen in researching this was that she stopped getting
Speaker 1: mail for her writing about how she got a peel box. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that that family didn't see those letters come through. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: Well if she had one rejection and then she got
Speaker 1: a peel box, who's a teased her and she got
Speaker 1: a second rejection? Okay, Well that just makes sense. You know,
Speaker 1: my family doesn't need to know what I'm doing, well,
Speaker 1: because they're family. That's the whole thing is, you're twenty
Speaker 1: five years old, you're living at home, but you don't
Speaker 1: want your parents and your family to be in all
Speaker 1: your stuff, right, you know. And you know, so that
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean her family was being nasty to her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that whole theory really like screams to me. The kind
Speaker 1: of demographic that comments on threads like this very often, right,
Speaker 1: and I am not so far out of this demographic
Speaker 1: of the like kind of like mid to late teens,
Speaker 1: early twenties demographic where it's very easy to like play
Speaker 1: the victim and like identify with that person who's like
Speaker 1: being victimized, and like, oh man, her life was so hard,
Speaker 1: it's like you forget that. Oh my gosh, she was
Speaker 1: being given like two thousand, four hundred dollars a month
Speaker 1: just for existing, you know, like she was living. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe like her family was tormenting her, but probably not
Speaker 1: tormizing her. Probably just like every family guys, where you're
Speaker 1: just like the writer over there, the artist over there,
Speaker 1: which my family does all the time. Everybody's family does.
Speaker 1: That's part of a healthy family dynamic. But when you're
Speaker 1: in your like mid to late mid to late teens,
Speaker 1: early twenties, you see that as like, my family hates
Speaker 1: mem is so hard. And I think with stories like this,
Speaker 1: it's really easy to grab onto that one little tiny
Speaker 1: nugget of like the way that family life could be
Speaker 1: and ignore everything else and say, well, she was tormented,
Speaker 1: God she left, Yeah exactly, that's right. They're reading each
Speaker 1: other's postings, you know, and so it's sort of it's
Speaker 1: sort of like a rumor, you know, it goes, it
Speaker 1: just gets out of one person resist and somebody adds
Speaker 1: just a little chainmailail. Yeah. So anyway, so there's this,
Speaker 1: there's some series that people have out there that she
Speaker 1: left to start a life of her own. Um and
Speaker 1: other people say that she left to run off with
Speaker 1: George Christcom or somebody else and start a new life.
Speaker 1: But on the flip side, as you were saying, she
Speaker 1: had a pampered life. Everything was taken care of, and
Speaker 1: she had that big fat allowance and she didn't have
Speaker 1: to spend that. If she wanted to buy a stuff,
Speaker 1: she could put things on the family account. And as
Speaker 1: we discussed earlier, she wasn't really like a stick to
Speaker 1: her guns kind of lady exactly. You know, she ye
Speaker 1: would have gotten into it and realized it was hard
Speaker 1: and come back and said oops, just kidding. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: even you know, I think that even if she had
Speaker 1: left and actually made a good life for herself, unless
Speaker 1: there was some hideous abuse so that I'm not never
Speaker 1: not aware of, I think sooner or later she would
Speaker 1: have contacted her family. I mean yeah. So that's why
Speaker 1: I think this is just pure bos I don't think Yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: the next theory botched abortion part one, Yeah, yeah, abortion,
Speaker 1: Yeah alright. So the Pittsburgh Press published an article in
Speaker 1: April ten, nineteen four. This is the kind of coherent
Speaker 1: when we were talking about, right, semi coherent one one
Speaker 1: that contradicts Yeah. Because of because of this article, a
Speaker 1: lot of people are out there theorizing that Dorothy want
Speaker 1: to an abortion clinic in Pittsburgh and died there due
Speaker 1: to a botched abortion. A lot of people make a
Speaker 1: lot about the location, which is in Pittsburgh, That's where
Speaker 1: Griscomb lived at the time. He wasn't there, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: but but the fact is, I don't know if he
Speaker 1: was there. Now, he wouldn't have been. If received he
Speaker 1: should have been, you should have been in Europe at
Speaker 1: this well. But if he received a letter in December,
Speaker 1: any time in December, really in Italy, it would have
Speaker 1: had been sent early early December. It seems that he
Speaker 1: could not have been there. Yes. Wait, wait, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: we're making a presumption year that he kept the letter
Speaker 1: in the envelope, that it arrived, and to prove that
Speaker 1: he was there, I gotta be honest with you. I
Speaker 1: think that people were suspicious enough of him that had
Speaker 1: he been lacking the envelope or been able to otherwise
Speaker 1: not able to prove. But these are pretty rich, dude,
Speaker 1: I think he could have persuaded people to not be
Speaker 1: looking for I. I opened the letter and I threw
Speaker 1: the envelope into the fire because I just needed to
Speaker 1: get to get the fire going. Well, I don't I
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what kind of stationary she used, but
Speaker 1: back in those days, and I have after my parents died,
Speaker 1: I inherited a lot of the family archives and from
Speaker 1: those days, back in the old old days, stuff that
Speaker 1: want to cross the ocean was generally that they had this.
Speaker 1: It was like this blue paper where the paper of
Speaker 1: the letter itself folded up and made the envelope because
Speaker 1: that's to save way, to save postage. And so of
Speaker 1: course Dorothy didn't necessarily need to do that. She was rich,
Speaker 1: she could actually have a letter in envelope. But back
Speaker 1: in the old days, I can show you some of
Speaker 1: those things. They it was like it just sort of
Speaker 1: really super thin paper and it all folded together neatly
Speaker 1: and made the envelope and the letter was the envelope,
Speaker 1: and so we might have been that. Yeah, a lot
Speaker 1: of people keep boblos. You know, you read the letter
Speaker 1: and then you stick the letter back in the envelope
Speaker 1: and you put it in your No, I'm guilty of that.
Speaker 1: I admit I have lots of bills that are still
Speaker 1: in their envelopes. Yeah. But anyway, but you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not. I'm not saying I personally don't believe
Speaker 1: that there's anything to make of the location in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people think, whoa who and what's
Speaker 1: what's the basis behind this? Again? Yeah, the Pittsburgh. The
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh thing is because that's where Griscom lived. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: where his family. Yeah. So the basis of the whole
Speaker 1: abortion thing is that a lot of people theorized that
Speaker 1: during their week together in Boston, he got her pregnant. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she needed to get an abortion. Remember that was in September.
Speaker 1: So she's like, you know, a couple of months along, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and three months along, she's two or three months somewhere.
Speaker 1: Three about when you know, yeah, you missed a few periods,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know, you miss one, Okay, like, fine, whatever,
Speaker 1: I'm stressed. I'm depressed you missed for the last three weeks.
Speaker 1: But yeah, but yeah support of Solidad's yeah yeah. And
Speaker 1: then you know, I guess to you probably make the appointment.
Speaker 1: Three you go to the appointment. I don't know, I
Speaker 1: don't think. Yeah, I can't say yeah. Well so anyway,
Speaker 1: I have no idea. Yeah. So the article included a
Speaker 1: testimony from a local doctor. His name was LUTs and
Speaker 1: he said that one of his female pages of LUTs.
Speaker 1: Why is that making you laugh? Because I just made
Speaker 1: a thirty Rock reference and now we're making another one inadvertently. Sorry, Yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, what is what does dr Let's say? Well,
Speaker 1: the doctor, doctor Lutts apparently apparently told the local d
Speaker 1: A and disappeared in the paper that one of his
Speaker 1: female patients had been to this abortion clinic and in
Speaker 1: some in other parts of the paper actually actually has
Speaker 1: two articles about this in the same day. And the
Speaker 1: other article you call it a sanitarium. This one they
Speaker 1: call it, like, you know, a clinic or whatever. Was
Speaker 1: fairly interchangeable term. And yeah, no, sanitarium doesn't necessarily mean
Speaker 1: what it means today in those days. Well, anyway, so
Speaker 1: he said that one of his female patients told him
Speaker 1: that she had been up there and that she had
Speaker 1: seen Dorothy Arnold at this clinic, at this abortion clinic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so this is years after, this is this is
Speaker 1: three years after. It is three years after. Excuse me
Speaker 1: about a little over three years after. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, this newspaper article, and that's not underestimate the
Speaker 1: ability of the press to misquote and distorage. But just
Speaker 1: another paragraph down they do the whole woman patient of
Speaker 1: Dr Lutts says that she saw. But then a paragraph
Speaker 1: down they say the source of Dr Lutz's allegation is
Speaker 1: that the doctor himself, the abortionist who ran the clinic
Speaker 1: told him. Well, and then don't they later say that, um, oh,
Speaker 1: actually the tip was from the assistant, the abortionists assistant. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but that that actually goes back three years. I'll explain that.
Speaker 1: I'll actually explain that. I'm confused. Yeah, I know, no,
Speaker 1: it is confusing. I'm still because if you read, if
Speaker 1: you read about this, it says that John Keith went
Speaker 1: and investigated a sanitarium in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where she was
Speaker 1: reported to be. Yeah, which is like fo away, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a long way to go a walk in a day.
Speaker 1: To me, if the if the clinics owner, the abortionist
Speaker 1: whose name was CC Meredith, if he had actually had
Speaker 1: Dorothy there and killed her in an abortion by botching,
Speaker 1: by botching it, it it seems a little hard for me
Speaker 1: to believe that he would tell somebody else that she
Speaker 1: was there. Yeah, that's because that's an illegal operation to
Speaker 1: start with. Well, let alone just talking about it. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: because yeah, and it's not just you're not just going
Speaker 1: to be if you kill somebody, You're not just gonna
Speaker 1: be tried for illegal abortions. You're gonna be tried for murder. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so it's something you're gonna keep your mouth shut about.
Speaker 1: You probably, I mean murder, and then all of the
Speaker 1: like hundreds of illegal abortions you've performed, of course I
Speaker 1: think at that point also account to murder. Yeah, yeah, probably,
Speaker 1: or at least manslaughter. But interestingly about this particular little place,
Speaker 1: this this clinic, is that John Keith had been there
Speaker 1: three years before. Oh okay, yeah, lawyer, that's where he
Speaker 1: had been there. That's what in this Philadelphia Press article.
Speaker 1: The main article is about is about the fact that
Speaker 1: the local police had rated this place and there was
Speaker 1: a there was a clue this doctor. Yeah, they read
Speaker 1: this place and they busted them and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: and they had this art whole thing that the Dorothy
Speaker 1: Arnold connection from this doctor Lutts, who had heard from
Speaker 1: apparently two different sources that about but as a second
Speaker 1: article where they talked with John Keith about his visit
Speaker 1: three years prior to the same place. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: you're talking about where he got a tip. So somebody
Speaker 1: in the clinic apparently contacted a lawyer who contacted Keith
Speaker 1: and she said that she was in a sanitarium in
Speaker 1: some accounts, or or that she was, you know, in
Speaker 1: this place. And it's that the story is confused. This
Speaker 1: place alive in this place, and she said that somebody
Speaker 1: was in their sanitarium who claimed to be Dorothy Arnold.
Speaker 1: And you'll find this in some of the accounts that
Speaker 1: are out there in the web, and they make it
Speaker 1: look like it's a separate place, but it's the same place.
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, So anyway, John Keith had been there. Apparently
Speaker 1: he had been he had received a tip from a
Speaker 1: lawyer in Pittsburgh who was informed by a person in
Speaker 1: this in this quote unquote sanitarium whose name turned out
Speaker 1: to be or or r r and uh. And so
Speaker 1: he came right straight away to investigate this. And when
Speaker 1: he came into it, when he came in there, he
Speaker 1: and he actually had to coerce Dr Meredith, the a
Speaker 1: worseness who owned the place. He actually had to coerce
Speaker 1: him a bit into letting him in to see him. Basically,
Speaker 1: he threatened to show up with the chief of police
Speaker 1: and her own whole bunch of reporters if he didn't
Speaker 1: get a private tour, and so Dr Meredith was like, okay,
Speaker 1: we'll give you to her. And so he shows up,
Speaker 1: walks in the door, and spots the nurse Lucy or
Speaker 1: Lucy or was one of the people who's mentioned in
Speaker 1: this September fourteenth article about the raid. So and he
Speaker 1: met and he's explicitly said in this article and said
Speaker 1: her name so and she and he said, did you
Speaker 1: are you the person who knows about Dorothy Arnold? And
Speaker 1: she says yes, And he says, where is she? And
Speaker 1: she points to this room. So he goes into the
Speaker 1: room and looks at this woman that's in there and says,
Speaker 1: and it comes back, I says, that's not her. So,
Speaker 1: so did she actually tell you? Because she had said
Speaker 1: that this woman was saying she was Dorothy Arnold, and
Speaker 1: so he said, did she really tell you that? And
Speaker 1: this woman said, well, no, she didn't actually tell me that,
Speaker 1: but I didn't think you could come otherwise. But I
Speaker 1: think she looks just like Dorothy Arnold. Yeah, so it
Speaker 1: went all the way out there. That was Yeah. But okay,
Speaker 1: so why is this not a good theory because it
Speaker 1: was a terrible lead. Yeah, that one. Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: the reason the reason this is a ludicrous theory is
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh is three miles away from Manhattan. So you're not
Speaker 1: gonna you know, you're not going to cover that kind
Speaker 1: of ground in a quick afternoon. You're not gonna say
Speaker 1: I went shopping. Yeah, hell no, okay, okay. There are
Speaker 1: some people who have said that they believed that the
Speaker 1: Arnold family knew that she was with child and needed
Speaker 1: to go get it taken care of, and they sent
Speaker 1: her away to go get taken care of. So they
Speaker 1: knew she was in Pittsburgh. But then why would why
Speaker 1: would they be calling all of her friends that night
Speaker 1: when she doesn't come back. Also, why would they sund
Speaker 1: her to Pittsburgh. It's New York. Surely there's a reputable abortionist.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there were plenty of unreputable people doing that
Speaker 1: kind of work. Sure, but I'm sure that, like, you know,
Speaker 1: as reputable as the people in Pittsburgh are, you can
Speaker 1: find in New York. Yeah, it's New York City. That's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that a lot of people like this.
Speaker 1: Whole theory though, is that because Chriscombe lived there and
Speaker 1: he was supposedly a wealthy playboy, then he knew a
Speaker 1: good place to go, you know. So that's that that
Speaker 1: sealed that. Okay, the next reason why this is bs
Speaker 1: um and this just kind of like it's tough on
Speaker 1: the next one too. But the letter, the letter that
Speaker 1: or letters that George Chriscombe actually handed over to the
Speaker 1: family from what he was in Europe. So she would
Speaker 1: if she was, if she was knocked up, she would
Speaker 1: be talking about that in those letters. Do you think
Speaker 1: he wants to open that can of worms? But here's
Speaker 1: what I will say is that I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: she would talk about that if she were just going
Speaker 1: to get it taken care of. You, as a young woman,
Speaker 1: think there would be a discussion back I would or
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true. If she had just decided, Nope,
Speaker 1: this isn't the right time for me. My parents are
Speaker 1: not going to allow me to marry this man. I
Speaker 1: clearly cannot have this baby. If she had just made
Speaker 1: that choice on her own and gone and solicited some
Speaker 1: kind of shady abortion back alley abortion, you know, this
Speaker 1: opened the can of worms. Ideally, Yeah, there would have
Speaker 1: been a conversation. But is there always no? Well, maybe not,
Speaker 1: but I think there probably would have been, which is
Speaker 1: why I kind of felt like, you know, he probably
Speaker 1: but but but you're right, I mean, maybe maybe there
Speaker 1: was no mention. Uh, the next reason the tip that
Speaker 1: John Keith received from the attorney that was received from
Speaker 1: Lucy or the abortionist assistant. So that absolutely makes no
Speaker 1: sense because if Dorothy Arnold had come, they're been killed
Speaker 1: through abosched abortion and the body is disposed of. Well,
Speaker 1: by the way, did I mention they have huge furnaces
Speaker 1: in the bottom of this house when they supposedly burned
Speaker 1: the bodies of the women who died. Yeah, so I
Speaker 1: you are you gonna actually find a way to get
Speaker 1: a friend and lawyer for the family out to your
Speaker 1: clinic to look around. That is absolutely absurd unless she
Speaker 1: died much later from unknown complications. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe,
Speaker 1: but again, I mean I'm on your side with this one. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was. That one's completely ludicrous. Anyway, our next theory
Speaker 1: botched abortion part two. So in this one, a convicting
Speaker 1: fellow named Edward Glenora's this is actually the most colorful
Speaker 1: story or theory in this entire thing. Yeah. Yeah. He
Speaker 1: said that he was in prison at the time, but
Speaker 1: he said that he was paid two hundred fifty dollars
Speaker 1: to bury the body of a young woman in December
Speaker 1: nineteen ten. He said that acquaintance hired him to drive
Speaker 1: a woman from a home in New Rochelle. New Marcelle
Speaker 1: is about fifteen miles northwest of Dorothy's home. It's on
Speaker 1: Long Island Sound. It's supposed to drive her from New
Speaker 1: Rochelle to we Hawk in New Jersey, exactly the wife.
Speaker 1: So they have a new New Ruschelle and Edward Glenn
Speaker 1: Ris and his the guy that hired him. His name
Speaker 1: is Little Louis, were met by two men and one
Speaker 1: was named such a New York name, Louis So they
Speaker 1: were got by two men, one named Doc and another
Speaker 1: that he described as a quote wealthy, well dressed man
Speaker 1: unquote who reportedly matched George Christcolm's description. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not buying any of this, but we'll talk about
Speaker 1: that later. So they loaded this unconscious woman into the car,
Speaker 1: drove her to a house in we Hawk in New Jersey,
Speaker 1: and then Little Louis told Glenorius during the drive that
Speaker 1: the woman was Dorothy Arnold. Glenora said he recognized her,
Speaker 1: and then the next day Little Louie contacted him again
Speaker 1: to you quote unquote finished the job. So they went
Speaker 1: back to we Hawking. Doc told the man that the
Speaker 1: woman had died at that home in we Hawk and
Speaker 1: during an operation, so Little Louis and Glenora's drove the
Speaker 1: woman's body back to the home in New Rochelle wrapped
Speaker 1: her body the sheet, buried her in the cellar. Wait.
Speaker 1: I thought they buried her in a cethern west Point
Speaker 1: accounts very okay, Okay, this is like that's that's That's
Speaker 1: why I'm asking because I know that this is one
Speaker 1: of those things where he gets kind of kind of
Speaker 1: money in the telling. Yeah, I know, they actually dug
Speaker 1: up sellers and homes in the area, but couldn't find
Speaker 1: any human remains. Uh So, anyway, why is this bs okay?
Speaker 1: Number one, I don't think she was pregnant to begin with.
Speaker 1: I mean number so number two, I mean she might
Speaker 1: have been, but uh new ourselves about fifteen miles northeast
Speaker 1: of the family home. She could have she could have
Speaker 1: jetted up there, left at home. Hey, I'm gonna go shopping.
Speaker 1: Jet up to New ro show, get your abortion, get back.
Speaker 1: But instead she walked the other direction. She walked south,
Speaker 1: got chocolate and got chocolate, bought a book, and you know,
Speaker 1: and hung out. So obviously, boy, couldn't she have gotten
Speaker 1: a right after that point? She could have? But the
Speaker 1: thing about it is is like you're kind of pushing it.
Speaker 1: You got to be home by dinner time, and the
Speaker 1: last time you're seeing is when you run into your
Speaker 1: friend outside the bookstore two pm. So it's like, and
Speaker 1: don't forget, don't forget. I mean, they didn't have much
Speaker 1: in the way of transportation of these days. Cars were
Speaker 1: a really new things. Oh yeah, they were slow and terrible.
Speaker 1: They were like what five probably a little better than that,
Speaker 1: but she probably would have taken a horse and buggy
Speaker 1: at this time, but you know, and so fifteen miles
Speaker 1: and a horse and buggy, that's a little bit of
Speaker 1: time compared to jumping in your car today. But well,
Speaker 1: I can I can just see though, and I'm just
Speaker 1: playing Devil's adcate here. But she says, I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: this and then I'm gonna go, And she's got a
Speaker 1: terrible sense of time. I mean, we all know those
Speaker 1: friends who say, it'll only take me this much time
Speaker 1: to do this. So I'm going to do these other
Speaker 1: things in the morning, and I'll be at year place
Speaker 1: by eleven o'clock and then they show up at three
Speaker 1: in the afternoon because they have no sense of time
Speaker 1: and they cannot judge how long things take. So she
Speaker 1: might have thought, well, i'll go get a book so
Speaker 1: that I have something to read on the way there
Speaker 1: and the way back, and it'll be fine. And if
Speaker 1: I late, well I'll just say that I'm ill and
Speaker 1: I had to stop because i didn't feel good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm obviously this is a conjecture, but I'm
Speaker 1: just looking at it as well. Maybe this could be
Speaker 1: the thought process that was involved. If she really was pregnant.
Speaker 1: Want you again, I'm not positive she was, but I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, if this was, this is a possibility, and
Speaker 1: that seems I know tons of people who do that
Speaker 1: crap all the time. But yeah, and and I know
Speaker 1: people like that too, but this is a this is
Speaker 1: a pretty important thing. This is a big deal. You know,
Speaker 1: you're knocked up and and and this is your salvation.
Speaker 1: You're gonna go get this abortion and everything. It's gonna
Speaker 1: it's gonna save you from being publicly publicly humiliated and
Speaker 1: cast up by your family. Pretty huge steal. That's something
Speaker 1: I'm sure she would try to be on time for.
Speaker 1: I don't think she'd screw around for hours walking around
Speaker 1: Manhattan buying chocolate and books. Don't you think she might
Speaker 1: have been making a day of it? Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: not not to be aloof about what she was doing,
Speaker 1: but she might have said, well, I'm gonna do these things,
Speaker 1: so at least I do these things and then I
Speaker 1: will go take care of that, or trying to cover
Speaker 1: her tracks knowing. Okay, so here are the two places
Speaker 1: or you know, two best places that I have family
Speaker 1: counts right that aren't near this clinic that I'm going
Speaker 1: to so it doesn't look like I'm going to this
Speaker 1: clinic or this house or whatever. You know, I have
Speaker 1: an account at this chocolate place. It's a couple of
Speaker 1: miles away. And then I can go buy a book
Speaker 1: and oh I ran into a friend. How convenient, Oh
Speaker 1: my goodness. And then you know, yeah, I mean, you
Speaker 1: know either way. Look, let's let's remember this is horse
Speaker 1: and Buggy days. Horse and Buggy goes what's five six min?
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it? Horse and Buggy days? They were
Speaker 1: the very yeah, the car there there were actually people actually,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, Henry Ford was not making model
Speaker 1: ts at this time. Yet the first thing that came
Speaker 1: out kind of mass produced was Oldsmobile. Was that producing cars,
Speaker 1: but not huge numbers. Uh, They're just weren't. And there
Speaker 1: were a lot of small manufacturers making weird clap tropy
Speaker 1: kind of not everybody was making their own Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: but but no, mostly it was horse and buggy, And
Speaker 1: so you have to expect that if she had caught
Speaker 1: a horse and buggy, she had to go all the
Speaker 1: way to New Rochelle from her place which is now
Speaker 1: after all her miles of walking now with Laura Manhattan,
Speaker 1: she had actually added miles to her to her journey
Speaker 1: to New Rochelle by walking in the direction that she did.
Speaker 1: It's going to take quite a while to get there.
Speaker 1: And then I don't know how long abortions I spent
Speaker 1: so long since I've had an abortion, I can't remember
Speaker 1: how long it took. That was terrible, absolutely terrible. I
Speaker 1: guess I just kept thinking cars because it sounded like,
Speaker 1: um gosh, the felon. Yeah, he said they were they
Speaker 1: were supposed to drive her. But driving back in those days,
Speaker 1: you know, it means driving in a buggy or a
Speaker 1: wife model. Were like, okay, all right, I guess I
Speaker 1: just have this yeah, view of new view of what
Speaker 1: cars are. So what what what are the other non
Speaker 1: abortion theories. Let's let's get to do a different theory? Okay,
Speaker 1: another Another theory is suicide? Another depressing to more depressing,
Speaker 1: thank you. You know. That's the thing about it is,
Speaker 1: I like one reason that so many people are in
Speaker 1: love with the whole idea that she ran away to
Speaker 1: to start, because that somehow the nicest theory. Yeah, every
Speaker 1: everything else and everything else is kind of horrible. The
Speaker 1: last the last minutes have just been joying. That's getting
Speaker 1: some more joy. Obviously, if I could choose a fate
Speaker 1: for Dorothy, I would I would have her runaway and
Speaker 1: have a happy life someone you know, But I don't
Speaker 1: think it worked out that way personally. Well, okay, what
Speaker 1: is this people believe, you know, based on based on
Speaker 1: the fact that she had been rejected. Of course, what
Speaker 1: was said in a letter to George Griscomb about how
Speaker 1: she was kind of down and dejected because her letter
Speaker 1: her essays had been rejected. And even John Keith, the attorney,
Speaker 1: said years afterwards it that he believed that she committed
Speaker 1: suicide because of her literary failures and because she felt
Speaker 1: so she got rejection from two different Yeah, she got
Speaker 1: But you know, I think I think it's this is
Speaker 1: this is possible, but I don't think it's necessarily true
Speaker 1: because number one, the body was never found, which is
Speaker 1: still possible. I mean, she could have jumped off the
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge and her body drifted out to see was
Speaker 1: never seen again. Maybe. Of course, there was lots of
Speaker 1: foot traffic on the and and horse and buggy traffic
Speaker 1: on the Brooklyn Bridge in those days, so she probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to jump off that bridge or
Speaker 1: any other bridge without being certainly not at mid day
Speaker 1: or or mid afternoon. And the other thing is that
Speaker 1: not the people who saw like where of course your
Speaker 1: families are before she left and her friend Gladys King
Speaker 1: saw her, none of and none of them noticed anything
Speaker 1: unusual or depressive about her. And so that seems to
Speaker 1: be the sort of thing that is really really open
Speaker 1: to suggestion. Right. If but he says, oh, well, maybe
Speaker 1: she jumped off a bridge, they'll be like, oh, she
Speaker 1: did seem a little depressed. She even seemed like the
Speaker 1: asiest depressed. Yeah, although you know, again, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: people who are about to do things like that oftentimes
Speaker 1: you kind of hear descriptions of them as being like
Speaker 1: really liberally. Yeah, maybe she felt like shed made this
Speaker 1: decision into like that. But my theory is that is
Speaker 1: that maybe she was depressed, but she was shopping and
Speaker 1: she's you know, that just made her happy. She was
Speaker 1: a shopoholic. Ultimately, she was shopping and couldn't find the
Speaker 1: right size and it made her even more depressed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's probably what she found. This beautiful smock god just
Speaker 1: going downhill, you too, This is spiraling out of control? Yeah,
Speaker 1: come on, what is what what's what's the next? They
Speaker 1: because it's got to be better than the theory. Okay,
Speaker 1: so she was abductive. Abductive? Yeah, you are no longer
Speaker 1: allowed to pick your own stories. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: like this theory either, but it's it's plausible, and actually
Speaker 1: I find it most plausible at all, because I managed
Speaker 1: to stumble across some crime stats from the New York
Speaker 1: City Police Department from those years from nineteen ten. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I luck, I just lucked upon it. And of them,
Speaker 1: in the boroughs of Manhattan, the Bronx, and Richmond, which
Speaker 1: is what we now call Staten Island, thousands of people
Speaker 1: I can't remember the number that to like four or
Speaker 1: five thousand people were reported missing just in nineteen ten alone.
Speaker 1: And of these three men, two sixteen women were never
Speaker 1: heard from again. So that's five people that disappeared permanently.
Speaker 1: And so some of them, I'm sure it ran off
Speaker 1: to join the circus or whatever, or you know, left
Speaker 1: the area and just said signor and everybody they knew
Speaker 1: there was no reason to maintain ties. Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: I'm showing. So I'm sure plenty of those people um lived,
Speaker 1: but but a substantial chunk wound up in shallow graves
Speaker 1: and at the bottom of the river. That's what I think,
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to remember, and guys help me out
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong. Is weren't opium den's
Speaker 1: kind of a thing at that time frame or is
Speaker 1: that earlier in history? I mean, I can guess it
Speaker 1: was like the eighteen seventies and eighties. Maybe kind of
Speaker 1: the nineties, yeah, you know later. But there's a lot
Speaker 1: of drugs these days that they this is just a
Speaker 1: weird cyclical thing of they're popular and everybody does them,
Speaker 1: and then they fall out of fashion. Then they start
Speaker 1: coming back. Maybe they're not as big, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's uh, there's a lot of stuff that you heard
Speaker 1: about the news that drug Yeah, I gotta say that.
Speaker 1: You know, when drugs fall out of fashion, that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean everybody stops doing it. Right. For example, is not
Speaker 1: nearly as big as it used to be, but it's
Speaker 1: still still. I just wonder, is you know opium dens
Speaker 1: were a thing where it was known that heroin, for example,
Speaker 1: or heroin they would know they would go they go
Speaker 1: to this place and they would do it and they
Speaker 1: would stay there while they were quote unquote experiencing their
Speaker 1: high and they leave, but occasionally they just o D
Speaker 1: and they wouldn't wake back up. And who's to say
Speaker 1: that this girl didn't have something some kind of habit
Speaker 1: like that, because she's got the money for it. So
Speaker 1: she goes out on a quote unquote shopping trip, and
Speaker 1: this time she didn't go charge anything in the family
Speaker 1: because she didn't find anything that day. But she just
Speaker 1: she went to that place and chung at all day,
Speaker 1: came home and and no talent, she did not. But
Speaker 1: then she comes home and she does what she does.
Speaker 1: But one day she does done come home from it.
Speaker 1: But I'm not saying that this girl had a drug habit.
Speaker 1: But I'm just looking at well, if if we're going
Speaker 1: to say that you know, it's suicide or death by
Speaker 1: some other means, well it's possible that o D. Because
Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing that happened at that time
Speaker 1: as well. That happened time, right, is like the kidnapping
Speaker 1: of white women to sell into slavery process. Say yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean across dreaming, that's the thing that still happens today.
Speaker 1: But you know that certainly happened. I mean, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: like Oregon has the Shanghai tunnels, like those are like
Speaker 1: later than that time period that it's happened for so
Speaker 1: long in our history than like who knows. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's so many different options that could have happened to
Speaker 1: this woman. Yeah, so I'm gonna like, I'm gonna say
Speaker 1: one thing against the opium slash heroine theory is that
Speaker 1: she was she was well known around town, and so
Speaker 1: she had to really seriously worry about getting found and busted.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe she had to have it, and I
Speaker 1: to how many Hollywood stars do we discover had a
Speaker 1: problem for years? Yeah, I just don't think she would
Speaker 1: have gone to an opium den. She might have had
Speaker 1: a connection somewhere. But I hate to talk about this
Speaker 1: more because I didn't. But I'm not I'm not saying
Speaker 1: I'm saying wrong and I'm run yeah yeah, no, no no,
Speaker 1: I just and I hate it because so many of
Speaker 1: these serious kind of track her names through the mud
Speaker 1: an abortion. Oh yeah, she got, she got, she was
Speaker 1: a heroin addict and all that stuff. But it's possibility.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the simplest, easiest thing, though, really
Speaker 1: is just that there was a lot of street crime.
Speaker 1: Somebody just knocked her on the head, robbed her, possibly
Speaker 1: raped her, and then murdered her. There could have been
Speaker 1: one of those. It could have been one of those
Speaker 1: deleos where she's like, do you know who I am?
Speaker 1: And then and now and she says, I'm a wealthy
Speaker 1: social and I'm famous around town, and then suddenly the
Speaker 1: guys like, oh crap, I was just gonna rob you
Speaker 1: in Rapion. Now I gotta kill you because I mean,
Speaker 1: they're gonna take this stuff seriously. And so it could
Speaker 1: have been something like that, but who the hell knows.
Speaker 1: I mean, I personally hope she ran off to join
Speaker 1: the circus and had a happy life. I really do.
Speaker 1: I really hope that she had a happy life with
Speaker 1: the Dancing Bear. Yeah, and that's all there was, too,
Speaker 1: became yeah, I you know, I I sincerely hope so too,
Speaker 1: because like what other options? Because a really nice one
Speaker 1: of the most depressing shows we've ever done, And I
Speaker 1: Am not letting him pick his own stories anymore more.
Speaker 1: From now on, you have to run him by us.
Speaker 1: That I didn't. I did run it by you, as
Speaker 1: I recall, Yeah, in about all of two seconds, oh
Speaker 1: this and she disappeared. Okay, that's fine. We're not running by,
Speaker 1: We're just like we're vetting. Yeah, yeah, I I forget
Speaker 1: it was I had her and some other disappearing person.
Speaker 1: It's like or no, some other person who's mysteriously well,
Speaker 1: which one sounds more interesting to you? And so go
Speaker 1: with Dorothy? So yeah, sutly, well, truly, I just wish
Speaker 1: she ended up in oz Yeah, with her dog Toto. Yeah, Toto, Yeah, Toto.
Speaker 1: It's actually Toto. I think that actually actually too Toto
Speaker 1: spelled spelled tote, but she as pronounced it Toto. What's
Speaker 1: the other reason I hate that movie? Yeah, she mis
Speaker 1: pronounced the dog's name. Yeah. So anyway, it's so favorite
Speaker 1: theories anybody the Circus, the Circus? I really, I like,
Speaker 1: I hope it's the circus. I really I wanted to
Speaker 1: beat the circus at this point, I think that it's
Speaker 1: you know, it seems like it's there's so many different
Speaker 1: things that really could have happened to her. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: really no use. I mean, I personally think that the
Speaker 1: odds are that it was random street crime. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: the only reason that this makes this like a high
Speaker 1: profile unsolved mr right is that she was like a socialite,
Speaker 1: you know, like this happens the same Yeah, it did
Speaker 1: well apparently from all the disappearing people in New York
Speaker 1: in that year. We're talking about this one because she
Speaker 1: was rich. Yeah, anyway, sad story. But anyway, but I
Speaker 1: will say for the record that I'm I'm pretty convinced
Speaker 1: that there were there was no botched abortion. I don't
Speaker 1: think it was that. I mean, I think it's pretty convincing.
Speaker 1: I don't think she was pregnant, so at least we're
Speaker 1: not dragging her through the mud, right Yeah, yeah, hopefully.
Speaker 1: All Right, So anyway, saying Aara Dorothy, that ends our mystery.
Speaker 1: Another successful us to resolved and all kinds of we're
Speaker 1: just so the listeners know Steve and I are both
Speaker 1: giving him the hall what pin story? Alright, said I'm
Speaker 1: gonna cry it was a pathetic sense is. Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: probably wondering where you can find our fabulous stuff and
Speaker 1: download it, although that's kind of stupid because you're already
Speaker 1: you've already done it. But you can find us on
Speaker 1: iTunes and you can download our stuff off of our
Speaker 1: website also Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh, you can
Speaker 1: set an email at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: You can also get a time to download us and
Speaker 1: put us on your iPod. You can stream us directly
Speaker 1: using Stitcher, all right, and you can find us and
Speaker 1: of course like us, like the hell out of us
Speaker 1: on Facebook. All right. Now it's time for that your
Speaker 1: favorite part of the episode, which is listener email. So
Speaker 1: today we've got an email from Crarry I won't tell
Speaker 1: you his last name, and and Crairy. As you know,
Speaker 1: most of most of our emails are from people who
Speaker 1: talk about how they adore us and they wish they
Speaker 1: were us and stuff like this. Yeah, Creary is not
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm not gonna call this email negative, but
Speaker 1: it's a slightly critical one. And well it's it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's an honest conversation. It's a thoughtful, it's good,
Speaker 1: good email. And and I'm I'm glad that Crearry wrote
Speaker 1: to us to tell us his concerns. So, going back
Speaker 1: to the Montak episode the Montalk Project, let me quote
Speaker 1: from from Clary's email. In the discussion of the quote
Speaker 1: going back in time to write the Civil War nonsense,
Speaker 1: someone I think it was Joe, and I think I
Speaker 1: remember saying this. I checked it. Yeah, I mentioned that
Speaker 1: slavery would have given way to industrialization. I apologize as
Speaker 1: and this is still Crary talking as one should never
Speaker 1: argue counterfactuals, but it's a subject a bit near to
Speaker 1: my heart. I'm gonna skip a little bit here. However,
Speaker 1: I think such hand waving as slavery is historical, as
Speaker 1: an historical force simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. And
Speaker 1: I probably I apologize to for you, but it's kind
Speaker 1: of a long email, so I'm not gonna read everything
Speaker 1: work for word back to your email with Creary. While
Speaker 1: the institution of slavery may well have evanesced in the
Speaker 1: face of the modern capitalist state, we should remember that
Speaker 1: there were some in the South who opposed this very
Speaker 1: ideal of the modern economy. And that's very true on
Speaker 1: this Vegan, not not Crearry talking in America and in Europe,
Speaker 1: there were lots of people who are very opposed to
Speaker 1: the system and the capitalism, and a lot of those
Speaker 1: people are still with us today. And so it wasn't
Speaker 1: an inevitability. And so Creary is quite correct in saying that.
Speaker 1: So let me skip ahead. It's and also the spector
Speaker 1: Crearry also even slavery word to go. This does not
Speaker 1: mean the legacy. Would we still live with the legacy
Speaker 1: today in this country? And he goes on a little
Speaker 1: bit um and I'm not so I'm not going to
Speaker 1: quote anymore, but not your email is not worth quoting
Speaker 1: and its entirety because it's a very good, thoughtful emil.
Speaker 1: It's a very good, lengthy email. Yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: that's that's the hard part, is it. It's a it's
Speaker 1: a very lengthy email, has a lot of good historical points.
Speaker 1: It makes some very good points. Yeah. I think you're right.
Speaker 1: It's it's a good, it's good email. Yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's good. It's great actually, and and uh, well,
Speaker 1: I thank you for bringing it up because I think
Speaker 1: I think that Crairy, if you saw this what I
Speaker 1: said that way, then probably some other people did. So
Speaker 1: I really thank you for bringing it up and giving
Speaker 1: me the chance to talk about what I really meant.
Speaker 1: I think what I said was capitalism was eventually going
Speaker 1: to wipe out slavery. Industrialization. Industrialization would wipe out slavery,
Speaker 1: which I think it would have. Um that does That's
Speaker 1: not the same as saying that I think that whether
Speaker 1: the South versus the North winds is six and one
Speaker 1: half a dozen of the other. I didn't mean that
Speaker 1: at all. And obviously it's a good thing that the
Speaker 1: North one if you're if you're a slave, you know,
Speaker 1: and the question of whether you're set free today versus
Speaker 1: fifty years from now, well that's pretty huge. So and so, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and at the same one, another reason I
Speaker 1: sort of said what I said is that I don't
Speaker 1: think that post Civil War things really improved that much
Speaker 1: for black folks in America. It really took a long time.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, uh oh, yeah, I mean there was segregation
Speaker 1: and Jim Crow I mean in lynchings and all kinds
Speaker 1: of stuff. I mean, you know, I mean, a hell
Speaker 1: of a lot of the slaves wound up going back
Speaker 1: and working on the same plantations they've been slaves on,
Speaker 1: except as chaircroppers, so they're still technically free. They were
Speaker 1: better off. But anyway, I'm not that's again, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying six and one half doesn't the other. It's a
Speaker 1: great thing with the North one. And uh anyway, but
Speaker 1: like I said, Gray, thanks a lot for the email.
Speaker 1: I appreciate the mention of all this stuff. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is something that we don't really realize, you know, because
Speaker 1: we all I've known each other long enough to that
Speaker 1: like we know what we meantally, you know, we said
Speaker 1: something like that, We're like, oh, yeah, totally, we totally
Speaker 1: get what you mean. And then we realize I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody knows that. For all our listeners to yeah, feel
Speaker 1: free to write emails like this. Don't feel like you
Speaker 1: need to just write in and send us love letters.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can be critical, you can you know,
Speaker 1: you can tell us how this, how much we discussed
Speaker 1: you I don't know. I I We have gotten stuff
Speaker 1: in the past that have been constructive criticism, and that's
Speaker 1: that is valid stuff to send us. And we have
Speaker 1: gotten a number of it in the past, and we've
Speaker 1: only benefited from it. It's only been something that has
Speaker 1: helped make us better because there's weird little ticks that
Speaker 1: we have done or things that we have said, and
Speaker 1: off air folks may not realize it, but we've had
Speaker 1: long discussions of figuring out how to make sure certain
Speaker 1: things happen that are better for the show. So this,
Speaker 1: this is a very positive thing. And now we know
Speaker 1: not to talk about the Civil War. No, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we don't know, like you know, there's so
Speaker 1: much that we're a fairly new podcast. We're like a
Speaker 1: year in. We do this for fun, and you know
Speaker 1: we're getting a fairly good response. We're occasionally yeah, and
Speaker 1: so it's great that you guys let us know when
Speaker 1: we do things, because you know we're we're in a bubble. Yep,
Speaker 1: We're a little little bit of a bubble. Okay. So anyway,
Speaker 1: that's it again, Crairy, thanks a lot for your email,
Speaker 1: which I again think was very thoughtful and intelligent and
Speaker 1: appreciate it and feel free to write us again too. Alright,
Speaker 1: so for it thinking sideways the podcast. This is good night, really,
Speaker 1: that's what you're gone. I can't, I can't, all right, Okay,
Speaker 1: Well this is Steve and I'm just gonna say goodbye. Hey,
Speaker 1: hey guys, why do you white girls travel in um
Speaker 1: packs of odd numbers? Because they literally can't even just
Speaker 1: like I can't right now, Please somebody turn out the recording.
Speaker 1: Oh so, what did the five fingers say in the
Speaker 1: face slap