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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know. You never know stories of

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Speaker 1: things we don't know the answer too. Well. Hi there,

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Speaker 1: welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. We're the

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Speaker 1: guys who tackle unsolved mysteries and solve the heck out

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Speaker 1: of them. Guys. Yeah, we're the guys and gang. Sorry. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I am joined as always by Devin and Steve. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so let's just dive head first into another mystery. Okay,

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Speaker 1: for I forget. This is a listener suggested episode, So

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Speaker 1: I want to give a big shout out to Ash

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Speaker 1: from England. Thanks. Ash. Wait, if we're a gang, do

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Speaker 1: we have hand signs? Have hand signs, have colors? We

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Speaker 1: have goodnape like this and then this one with a finger.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and there's a bird. Okay, alright, So, so

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Speaker 1: our mystery this week Dorothy Arnold. Some of you may

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Speaker 1: have heard of Dorothy Arnold. This is actually, um a

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Speaker 1: hundred years ago kind of a huge thing and it

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Speaker 1: got worldwide publicity. Let me talk a little bit about her.

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Speaker 1: Dorothy Harriett Camille Arnold. Was I know grandma and grandma's

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Speaker 1: names or something like that. Yeah, her mother had like

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Speaker 1: five names. That's kind of a rich people thing, I think.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, she was the daughter of Francis and Mary Arnold.

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Speaker 1: Francis Arnold was a stinking rich perfume and porter. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They lived in a very posh Manhattan house just to

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Speaker 1: block east of Central Park, very nice part of town.

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Speaker 1: They were listed in the Social Register, which is a

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Speaker 1: big deal for rich people. You probably, guys have probably

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Speaker 1: heard of the Social Register, right, yeah, hell, you're on it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not to. Dorothy was a socialite, and definition of

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Speaker 1: socialite is quote someone who was well known in fashionable

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Speaker 1: society and spends a significant amount of time participating in

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Speaker 1: social activities such as parties and other fashionable events. That's

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Speaker 1: from Wikipedia. Parties, by the way, which none of us

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Speaker 1: ever get invited to. Well, Steve does, obviously. Social Register.

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Speaker 1: I said, to screw the mystery. I'm gonna spend the

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Speaker 1: next hour just ranting about the one percent. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm cool. How about you? No, I think that's done.

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Speaker 1: Ok alright, let's solve the mystery. Then back to Dorothy.

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Speaker 1: On Monday December twelfth, nineteen ten, so hundred four years ago,

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Speaker 1: Dorothy left the family house in the morning, saying that

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Speaker 1: she was going to go shopping for a dress for

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Speaker 1: her her sister's debutante. Yeah again, more more rich, socialized stuff.

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Speaker 1: She was it wasn't even yeah exactly, so she had

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Speaker 1: to have she had to obviously go buy a new

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Speaker 1: dress for that. Yeah. Anyway, she left the house to

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Speaker 1: go shopping and the family never saw her again. And

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Speaker 1: this was this was a huge deal. I mean, got

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Speaker 1: a lot of publicity and everybody was wanting what happened.

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Speaker 1: It was all over the newspapers. Yeah, the family and

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Speaker 1: their investigators were able to piece together her trail, at

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Speaker 1: least some of her trail where she went before she disappeared.

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Speaker 1: So first off, she went to a store at seven

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Speaker 1: and fifth Avenue. Can we talk about New York and

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Speaker 1: the way that they do streets and how confusing that is?

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Speaker 1: Please yes, because I still see this and it's still

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Speaker 1: confuses that it's it's it's it's avenues run one way

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Speaker 1: in streets run the other. Is that correct? Kind of

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Speaker 1: like Vancouver? You know you guys have been to the

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Speaker 1: Coup Washington, Washington, Yes, yeah, yeah, it's like I don't

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Speaker 1: I don't know which one is north south and which

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Speaker 1: one is east west? But is it is avenues one

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Speaker 1: way and streets the other, so I could literally be

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Speaker 1: on Fifth and Fifth potentially. Yeah, I know, it just

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Speaker 1: kind of dumb, but it is what it is. I

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Speaker 1: don't think they're gonna just enraged so many New Yorkers

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Speaker 1: the Waitland does it is so much better. I know

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Speaker 1: names of people that nobody knows. Yeah, I know. Well,

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Speaker 1: so anyway, I've taken the liberty of printing up this map,

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Speaker 1: which I got off a Google so you can see

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Speaker 1: the upper right hand corner where she started from and

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Speaker 1: the place where she went to buy. She stopped at

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Speaker 1: the store and bought half a pound of chocolate, which

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Speaker 1: is down here, which is five yeah, and that's two

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Speaker 1: and a half miles away, so she could hook it.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't mention. By the way, Dorothy was twenty

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Speaker 1: five and apparently like to walk, so she headed south

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Speaker 1: to and a half miles and then headed back north

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Speaker 1: to a bookstore. But you know, like that's an hour

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Speaker 1: walk really, Yeah, you've got a day ye walk. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's not in a huge harry or anything. She bought

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Speaker 1: a half a pound of chocolate, brought half chocolate, and

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Speaker 1: then she went to a bookstore. The bookstore is Brentano's, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, it was in an episode of Seinfeld.

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Speaker 1: It was actually it was actually a New York Landmark

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Speaker 1: bookstore for many, many years before it got absorbed by Borders.

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Speaker 1: And I soon Borders is out of business right now

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Speaker 1: but almost Yeah, actually, yeah, I can't think of the

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Speaker 1: last time I saw brick and mortar Borders. Yeah, Bars

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Speaker 1: of Noble somehow still around. Borders. Yeah, I think I've

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Speaker 1: seen Borders in malls and that's the only place I've

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Speaker 1: seen him, and that was years ago. This episode of

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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast brought to you by Borders, brought to

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Speaker 1: you by defunct bookstores. I'll be our next mysteries. What

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Speaker 1: where did all the bookstores go? Oh? Anyway, so she

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Speaker 1: stopped at this bookstore and bought a book by somebody

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Speaker 1: you'd never heard of, Jane Calvin something. I did a

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Speaker 1: google on her. I couldn't find anything. But anyway, apparently

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Speaker 1: she was popular a hundred years ago. But she left

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Speaker 1: the paper trail at these stores because she charged her

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Speaker 1: purchases to the family accounts. Okay, both places, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I kind of a sweet dealer family. Of course, as

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Speaker 1: I said, it was stinking rich. She got a hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars in a monthly allowance, which is the equivalent of

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Speaker 1: d and forty dollars today today's dollars. And you know,

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Speaker 1: she had to pay did net to paying rent, didn't

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Speaker 1: have to pay utilities, didn't net paper food. Plus she

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Speaker 1: could go out opping and charge things to the family

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Speaker 1: accounts on top of her allowance she had. I think

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Speaker 1: I saw, I saw I mentioned that she had thirty

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Speaker 1: or forty in her possession. Yeah, I think the family

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Speaker 1: estimated she left the house. Yeah, I remember reading this.

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Speaker 1: She had a day or two before gone out with friends,

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Speaker 1: and I think she took her friends to a movie,

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Speaker 1: and then they had gotten food afterwards, and she had

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Speaker 1: gone to the bank and gotten thirty six dollars out

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Speaker 1: of the bank, which seems like such a funny number

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Speaker 1: to us today, But then was obviously a large sell

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Speaker 1: of cats that was probably seven or eight hundred bucks,

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Speaker 1: right and then and then they knew how much she

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Speaker 1: should have approximately spent at these locations, so they figured

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Speaker 1: she had about twenty five dollars give currency at that

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Speaker 1: for that time period on her, which again is a

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Speaker 1: pretty decent some money. It's you know, a couple hundred bucks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's not like, you know, runaway to the hills,

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Speaker 1: finance the rest of your life money. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: that weird middle ground. Yeah. Anyways, I think that's worth mentioning. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: more on that later, but okay, anyway, so after the bookstore,

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Speaker 1: she outside the bookstore, she ran into a friend of her,

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Speaker 1: his name Gladys King, and they chatted for a bit,

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Speaker 1: parted ways. And this wasn't about in the afternoon, according

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Speaker 1: to Gladys, And that was the last time she was

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Speaker 1: seen by anybody who knew her. She literally evaporated from

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Speaker 1: the streets the last time. The last time wasn't It

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Speaker 1: wasn't didn't. The story go that Gladys turned around a

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Speaker 1: second time to wave goodbye and saw her at and

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Speaker 1: sall basically a couple of blocks away or something like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, and so that was it. So yeah, she

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Speaker 1: just sort of vanished from the earth into the history books.

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Speaker 1: Over the following months, many people from across the country

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Speaker 1: claimed to a senior because after the news got out,

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Speaker 1: people were phoning in, phoning in tips from all around

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Speaker 1: the country claiming they had senior uh and the family

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Speaker 1: being rich, she had a lot of money, to actually

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Speaker 1: send detectives out to follow up on all these aids,

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Speaker 1: and so they were. They were mostly followed up on,

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Speaker 1: and none of them panned out unfortunately. So when she

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Speaker 1: didn't return home in the evening, her parents started calling

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Speaker 1: all of her friends looking for Nobody knew what had

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Speaker 1: happened to her. Now, now let me take a break here,

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Speaker 1: before we were launching more history and theories. Here's a

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Speaker 1: few things about her life just before the disappearance. And

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about these things now because they'll have a

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Speaker 1: little bearing later on the story. Okay, Number one, Dorothy

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Speaker 1: was interested in being a writer, and she had actually

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Speaker 1: written two short stories and submitted to a magazine called

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Speaker 1: The Clures, which I've never heard of, but they're probably

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Speaker 1: gone by now, and they were rejected, which left her

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Speaker 1: feeling a bit depressed apparently, which I just think I was.

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Speaker 1: Steph and I were chatting about this earlier, and I

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Speaker 1: was just thinking, how, I guess cute and funny it

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Speaker 1: is not to be, you know, the dismissive of this,

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Speaker 1: the impact that this can have on someone, But how

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Speaker 1: kind of cute and funny it is that she like

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Speaker 1: submitted to papers and they got rejected. And she was like, well, shucks,

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Speaker 1: my career as a writer is over. I know, it's

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Speaker 1: like a little bit more persistence, yeah, or you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe submit to another magazine that might be more interested

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Speaker 1: in your writing style. She was aiming for the top only.

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Speaker 1: But then again that you know, if you do the

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Speaker 1: reading the readings on this. Her family knew that she

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Speaker 1: was a writer, so there's all this talk about how

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Speaker 1: they were mocking her for trying to write. Mclars is

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Speaker 1: the only place that I think she submitted two to

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Speaker 1: them and one to another magazine something like that. Let's

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Speaker 1: think about nine. There are tons and tons of magazines

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Speaker 1: and newspapers and rags around that you can submit to.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not going to cast any aspersions on her,

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Speaker 1: but I think that maybe a bit of her social

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Speaker 1: status told her that she had to only go for

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Speaker 1: these particular ones. Then I am from the upper class,

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Speaker 1: so I must write for the New York You just

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Speaker 1: cut my teeth and I'll get my stuff published wherever

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Speaker 1: I can get it published, because that's the way. All

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Speaker 1: of the good writers in this this world have gone

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Speaker 1: about it well and currently got it published by crap people,

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Speaker 1: and eventually they got better and clearly her problem was

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Speaker 1: that I'm sure she was sending them on in under

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Speaker 1: her own name instead of a male pseudonym. That's another

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Speaker 1: good point, another point entirely. And I think the actually

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Speaker 1: women writers were kind of accepted back in those days.

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Speaker 1: They were not so much. There were some women writers.

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Speaker 1: But when did suffrage happen? When did the suffrage movement? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this is I'm sorry, the nineteen thirties. No, no,

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Speaker 1: it was the early nine hundreds, late eighteen hundreds. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so but this is this is when all that's happening,

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Speaker 1: and there's still a huge bit of massage is not

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Speaker 1: the right word. It's some of that, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: the old boys society, it's this and when clean the

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Speaker 1: house and that's children. And that's why Dorothy was a socialite,

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Speaker 1: because you know, I mean, you know, maybe maybe today

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Speaker 1: she'd actually be doing something useful back and back in

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Speaker 1: those days. And now you're rich and uh, you're not

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Speaker 1: expected to actually do anything like become a dentist or

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Speaker 1: a lawyer or anything like that, and that as a woman.

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Speaker 1: If she had said it in under the name of

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Speaker 1: Dawn instead of Dorothy, it might have gotten picked up

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Speaker 1: they're like, well, Dog's not that great of a writer,

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Speaker 1: but we'll publishing stuff. It's okay. Well, the thing about

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Speaker 1: it is, too, is I forget what the title of

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Speaker 1: one of the stores was. It was like there's something

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Speaker 1: Phoenix or the like. It was like the point in

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Speaker 1: the Flame. Yeah, and you know, I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: want exactly what, it should have a title like pork

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Speaker 1: Shop Hill. So what we're saying is she should have

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Speaker 1: been submitting to Harlequin. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, she gave up. Obviously.

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Speaker 1: I thought we didn't see the notes. It might have

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Speaker 1: been quite brutal and just like you know, dear miss Arnold,

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Speaker 1: thanks for submitting your excrescence. Please don't ever do that again.

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Speaker 1: You don't know, yeah, we I mean, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know if when they sent rejection letters, if they actually

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Speaker 1: sent it back all marked up. I mean, that crush somebody.

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Speaker 1: If somebody sent back your manuscript and they had taken

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Speaker 1: the time to red pen it. I don't think they did.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think they don't think they were even

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Speaker 1: return your manuscript. I think they just sent you a letter.

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Speaker 1: And but that's what I'm getting to the point of

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Speaker 1: the way that it's portrayed. At how strongly she took

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Speaker 1: the rejection. You would think that somebody had taken the

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Speaker 1: time to red pen all of her work and send

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Speaker 1: it back and say all of these things are wrong, no,

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Speaker 1: thank you that, or you know, she was the daughter

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Speaker 1: of a very wealthy family and was not used to

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Speaker 1: being said no to good point, good, very good point.

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Speaker 1: I mean just saying yeah. Or maybe she just a

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Speaker 1: really bad writer and she just couldn't perceive this. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: we're kind of getting off into the weeds too, all right,

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Speaker 1: So I mentioned her her abortive writing career. Also, what

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Speaker 1: else happened before she disappeared. Dorothy asked her father she

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Speaker 1: could move out of the house and get an apartment

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Speaker 1: in Greenwich Village where she could write and be all

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Speaker 1: artistic and stuff and some day meet Bob Dylan. Yeah

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Speaker 1: that that said no. It was twentieth century, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: he said no, And he said something on the order

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Speaker 1: of a good writer can write anywhere, so you can

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Speaker 1: write in your bedroom, honey. I felt like that's a

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Speaker 1: great answer, though, I mean, okay, we've already gone on

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Speaker 1: the weeds once, but I'm gonna stand up for dad

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Speaker 1: here a little bit. I already pay for all of

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Speaker 1: this kid's stuff, and I give her an allowance. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, living at home is free, and at

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Speaker 1: home is relatively free. But now you want to get

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Speaker 1: an apartment, which means you want me to pay for

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Speaker 1: set apartment and all of your bills. Well, yeah, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: and on top of that, you know, I think back

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Speaker 1: in those days that a woman moving out of the

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Speaker 1: house before she actually found a husband and got married.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, in those days, if you

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Speaker 1: were not actively courting someone suitable to your parents liking,

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Speaker 1: you were probably not doing super well according to your parents. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was. She was actually courting somebody. We'll talk about

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Speaker 1: that a little bit here. But he was he was

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Speaker 1: not suitable parents Yeah, yeah, his his. Her dad did

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Speaker 1: make a remark on on the lines of he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: mind her dating more guys at all, just not worthless

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Speaker 1: guys or something. Let's talk about. Yeah, so, speaking of

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Speaker 1: that guy. In September nine, about three months before she disappeared,

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Speaker 1: Dorothy told her parents she was going to go visit

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Speaker 1: a former college classmate in Boston. She did go to Boston,

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Speaker 1: but she didn't hang much with her classmate, but she

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Speaker 1: spent the week with a guy named George Griscombe Jr. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I think it's Griscom, might might be Grissom

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Speaker 1: or something like that. Let's go for Griscomb. Yeah. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He was from a rich family in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They

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Speaker 1: were all proper about it. They stayed in separate hotels,

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Speaker 1: not just separate rooms, but separate hotels. Uh. So maybe

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Speaker 1: no copulation occurred, We don't know, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: the Dorothy Arnold diarists out there think that it did,

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Speaker 1: and it forms the basis for a lot of their

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Speaker 1: ideas about why she disappeared. So a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about him, George Grissom, Griscomb. She was seeing him, and

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Speaker 1: obviously there was something going on there, but Dorothy's father

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Speaker 1: basically forbade him from forbade her from seeing him because

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Speaker 1: even though he was rich, he came from a good family,

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Speaker 1: he was considered to be by Dorothy Mr. Arnold, to

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Speaker 1: be a worthless Yeah. I mean he was. He was

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Speaker 1: like forty something to right and living at home and

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Speaker 1: kind of just like living off of his parents money

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Speaker 1: pretty much. I wasn't earning anything for himself. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: had heard that he Um, he went to law school

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Speaker 1: and had a law degree and was was working as

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Speaker 1: a contract lawyer, so doing contract law, but apparently not

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Speaker 1: working too terribly hard. And still you know, if you're

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Speaker 1: forty two and still living at home, you're really not

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Speaker 1: very ambitious, let's face. Yeah, well, sorry, you're not forty two,

294
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Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, yeah, he wasn't not making it. Yeah,

295
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Speaker 1: thanks Joe. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Feel better about my

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Speaker 1: life now. I'm not going to go throw myself off

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Speaker 1: a bridge like Dorothy did. Oh no, wait, I'm sorry,

298
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Speaker 1: you're getting a ohet of the ending. No, she didn't

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Speaker 1: really throw herself up a bridge. So George was not

300
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:46,160
Speaker 1: a suitable suitor, not in the eyes of Dad. Yeah. Anyway,

301
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Speaker 1: But the folks didn't actually find out about this Boston

302
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,000
Speaker 1: thing with with Griscom until after the disappearance, when apparently

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00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,720
Speaker 1: the Boston police discovered that Dorothy had pawned five hundred

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Speaker 1: bucks worth of jewelry to pay for her hotel room.

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Speaker 1: And this is going to observe that if copulation actually

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00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 1: had occurred, you would think that Griscombe would have paid

307
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Speaker 1: her hotel bill at least as a gentleman. You think

308
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,400
Speaker 1: the classic well, you know, and and he didn't sound

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Speaker 1: like he had a lot of class. Well he might

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Speaker 1: have been on a short least. Maybe the folks didn't

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Speaker 1: give him a huge allowance. I think I think we

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00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 1: need to back up here a little bit. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think we've missed a salient point in this story, which

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Speaker 1: is so she disappeared and then now we're talking about

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Speaker 1: like some of the investigation that found Griscomb. But I

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00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,240
Speaker 1: think what's important for people to understand is the cops

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00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:40,800
Speaker 1: weren't brought in until three weeks later. Two weeks later.

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Speaker 1: It was weeks later because they were keeping it under

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Speaker 1: the rug. They called their lawyer, and the lawyer looked

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Speaker 1: for her. Not the lawyer didn't. He hired a private investigation.

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Speaker 1: He actually did a lot of look in too. But

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Speaker 1: but the thing is is that I think people don't

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Speaker 1: understand this. This didn't become a full fledged investigation right away.

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Speaker 1: She disappeared. They didn't say anything because there's that weird

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Speaker 1: thing that cops for a while, because you know, they

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00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 1: probably probably were thinking that there could be something scandalous here,

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00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,360
Speaker 1: like they're gonna search for and then when she turns up,

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Speaker 1: she's going to be like, you know, shacked up in

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Speaker 1: a hotel room with some dude something like that. But

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Speaker 1: I want to keep they wanted to keep it quiet.

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Speaker 1: There was all kinds of rumors of of weird stuff

332
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Speaker 1: that they did. Somebody called the house or one of

333
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: her girlfriends called the house tonight she disappeared and her

334
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:36,399
Speaker 1: mother said, yeah, she's here, Oh can I talk to her? Um, No,

335
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,920
Speaker 1: she's asleep in bed with a headache or something. Yeah,

336
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 1: which is I mean, there's a lot of weird things

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00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,600
Speaker 1: about this story, and I think that it's that natural

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00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 1: tendency of people with money to try to hide anything

339
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,159
Speaker 1: that's going on. But it's it's an important point for

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00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,800
Speaker 1: people to understand that it wasn't suddenly the police were

341
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,159
Speaker 1: investigating her disappearance. There's a time lag here, whre was

342
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: always a detriment acord investigation. Yeah, well hell yeah, but

343
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 1: according to some accounts the time leg was most accounts

344
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 1: actually the time leg was six weeks before they talked

345
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 1: to the cops. Yeah, but they well, yeah, they supposedly

346
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 1: hired Pinkerton detect which is fairly famous agency as it

347
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,160
Speaker 1: turns out. Yeah, although actually in a in a newspaper

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00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 1: account that I read of it. The newspaper account kind

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00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,959
Speaker 1: of kind of made it clear that the police had

350
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Speaker 1: actually been brought in much earlier, like a week after. Yeah,

351
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 1: but he didn't. They didn't actually go public until about

352
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Speaker 1: six weeks after. Okay, See, when I was the articles

353
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: I came across, insinuated that there it had been multiple weeks,

354
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,360
Speaker 1: but that might be just when it was released. It's

355
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 1: also hard to tell, you know, again, Stephen, I were

356
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 1: talking about this earlier, and we were talking about the

357
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,760
Speaker 1: fact that, you know, late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds,

358
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,480
Speaker 1: all of these articles kind of just read like People magazine,

359
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,119
Speaker 1: do you know. And it may be, you know, slight

360
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 1: differences in the writing styles things like that, but a

361
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 1: lot of it is just kind of, well, we heard

362
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,639
Speaker 1: from a source that so and so knows that so

363
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 1: and so knows that so and so said, blah blah

364
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. You know, it's it reads like a

365
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:16,479
Speaker 1: gossip column kind of more than virtual I we're used to.

366
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Speaker 1: But I was going to talk about this in a

367
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Speaker 1: little bit, and there's this article from the Pittsburgh Press

368
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 1: that came out in nineteen fourteen that was a big

369
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,680
Speaker 1: game changer for the whole thing, and it was like,

370
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 1: and the article contradicts itself, it's kind of incoming. Yeah, yeah,

371
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,959
Speaker 1: it kind of kind of protradicts itself. But anyway, more

372
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 1: on that later. Alright, So, the Arnold family asked a

373
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Speaker 1: friend who was also a lawyer, whose name is His

374
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,160
Speaker 1: name was John Keith, and they hired him to try

375
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:47,639
Speaker 1: to find Dorothy so Keith. Dorothy Keith was a lawyer

376
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,880
Speaker 1: and not a private eye, so I think I suspect

377
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 1: that they hired him because of attorney client privilege. That

378
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,400
Speaker 1: would make sense. Yeah, they wanted to keep it low

379
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 1: and plus he was a family friend, so he could

380
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 1: be expected to keep it on the d L. So yeah,

381
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 1: and as we said, they didn't want publicity. They reportedly

382
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 1: didn't tell the police for six weeks, although maybe it

383
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 1: was less than that. But the police managed to keep

384
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 1: quiet about the whole thing. Although that's kind of surprising

385
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 1: because police even these days are kind of corrupted New York. Yeah,

386
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: they are not, like, you know, sell information to reporters.

387
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,120
Speaker 1: But that would be a good reason to keep him out.

388
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 1: So anyway, John Keith came over to the house and

389
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: searched her room looking for clues apparently all of her

390
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: stuff was their clothes and everything else for the one

391
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 1: outfit she was wearing. Right, of course, yeah she had

392
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 1: to go out. She couldn't go out naked for christ sake.

393
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 1: Well yeah, unless she could, but yeah she didn't. That

394
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 1: would be looked upon with this favor. But he found

395
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: some burned papers in the fireplace, which everybody assumed were

396
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,160
Speaker 1: just the manuscripts that ned had been rejected by the clures.

397
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 1: You know again, come on, Dorothy, you know, man up.

398
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: Send that to somebody else under a phony name, Send

399
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: a cracked man. They'd accept it. H they found brochurest cracked,

400
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 1: they probably would. What else is the one thing that

401
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 1: peaks a little interest is I have some brochures apparently

402
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 1: for steamliners to to Europe, because remember in those days

403
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 1: they didn't have seven seventy sevens. You had to actually

404
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,239
Speaker 1: take a slow boat. Um. And I feel a lot

405
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,679
Speaker 1: of speculation then and even today that she wanted to

406
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,239
Speaker 1: run off and joined Griscom or somebody else and just

407
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 1: you know, start a new life. Maybe so John Keith

408
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: went checked hospitals, jails, borges in New York, Philadelphia and

409
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: Boston looking for her body or whatever. And he found nothing. Finally,

410
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 1: he suggested hiring the Pinkerton Detective Agency, which is still

411
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: in operation today and is a very famous historic investigation service.

412
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: Just throwing that out there. Oh yeah, Pinkerton Investigations, and

413
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: you will find some stuff. Yeah, I'm expecting them to

414
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: call us one of these days. We got a really

415
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 1: tough mystery here. We just can't crack. Since we solve everything,

416
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: they're not going to call us, because you know what's

417
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: gonna happen. It's Joe's gonna answer their phony school, dull

418
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:15,239
Speaker 1: the uper Cobra, send me my money and hang up.

419
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: Well that's why we don't give Joe the phone. I

420
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 1: could just picture that though. Yeah, get up my get

421
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: up my magnifying glass. I see you see top of here.

422
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: It looks like nothing, but it's actually a chupa cobra track. Yeah, yeah, okay, anyway,

423
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: half of that. So anyway, the Pickerton's did more the

424
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: same They searched hospitals, more the same thing, you know,

425
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: except that they were able to cast a wider net

426
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: since they weren't one single attorney. Uh and actually, and

427
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: after they thought about the tickets and everything, they sent

428
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: some detectives to Europe to look for also, and so

429
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: they spent a lot of money on this. You know,

430
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta raise something that I was reading

431
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: the newspaper accounts and the stuff about the Pinkerton's, and

432
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 1: of course they couldn't send somebody to Europe to look

433
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 1: for her getting off the boat because they couldn't get

434
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: there fast enough. So I had to wire her description.

435
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: So I know what this woman looks like according to

436
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 1: a written description, and they find a number of women

437
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: who they think could look like her, but who say

438
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:24,239
Speaker 1: they aren't her. Okay, well, one a written description of

439
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 1: somebody is very far flowing from what they actually look like.

440
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: And too if I walk up and I say, excuse me,

441
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: are you Dorothy and you go, no, dude, I'm Jane,

442
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: I'm from Illinois. Oh sorry, and let's move about your business.

443
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 1: How effective of a search means? Is this? Yeah? Yeah,

444
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: this this is very true. I mean, I don't know,

445
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: back in those days, they couldn't exactly email some photos.

446
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: That's that's what I mean, is that they send people

447
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: to look for people getting off the boats. It's like, um,

448
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: this doesn't seem like it's got a high probability of success.

449
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 1: I can see that. In Europe is kind of a

450
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: big place. Man, looking for people is really hard back

451
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: in those days. Looking for people to day is hard,

452
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: I know. And you can email stuff and like make

453
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: things viral, and I least people in crowds that I know. Yeah, like,

454
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: where were you? Um? Two feet in front of you? Really,

455
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: I was hiding from you. I never see you again,

456
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: obviously in plain sight. So they looked in Europe because

457
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: of the steamliner, right, were there any other reasons that

458
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: they found to look in New York? I mean, I'm

459
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: sorry in Europe? Yeah, Well there was one other guy. Yeah,

460
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: there was George Griscom, who it turns out I went

461
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: to Italy. I'm not sure exactly when he went over there,

462
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: but he was in Italy with his folks, tootling around,

463
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 1: so that his parents. Yeah, he was with his parents. Yeah.

464
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: He They Telegramedhi. Apparently they got ahold of him, and

465
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: he telegrammed them back and said he didn't know anything

466
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: about what happened to Dorothy and they were buying it.

467
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: So apparently mother Mary and her older brother John went

468
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: to Naples to confront him. No, not the mother's older brother,

469
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: but Dorothy's older yeah, exactly, her son John Kay. Yeah,

470
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: so he he denied it, and he gave them a

471
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: letter that he'd received from her in December apparently, although

472
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: in some accounts it says that he gave them a

473
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: like a sheaf of letters, Yeah, like a case of them. Yeah,

474
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: that was what I had read, yeah, or a packet

475
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: or something like that. But so the letter, this is

476
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: this last letter I mentioned that she had just gotten.

477
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: She just been rejected by McClure's again, that she was

478
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: kind of depressed over the whole thing, and that, of

479
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: course fields speculation that she may have committed suicide because

480
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: she was so down over this whole thing about not

481
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: getting your stories accepted. Yeah. And the hard thing with

482
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: christ is I spent a lot of time looking at him,

483
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: trying to pin down when he went to Italy, because

484
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: I thought that's what I was curious about too. He

485
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: murdered her, Yeah, and so I was like, Okay, well,

486
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: when the heck did he leave the country? Wasn't able

487
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: to find out. All you can ever find is when

488
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: he came back. Nothing says when he left, which either

489
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: means that a reporters just didn't think to ask, or

490
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: be he just never said how long he had been

491
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 1: on holiday. Yeah, I guess I got the sense that

492
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: he had been gone for a while, and finding out

493
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: that his he went with his family kind of makes

494
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: his story less suspicious to me. Yeah, because it wasn't

495
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: like he was escaping or anything like that. It also

496
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: sounds like if he was over there and she was

497
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: sending him a bunch of letters to the point where

498
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: he had a whole sheaf of them or a whole

499
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: packet um that he was over there for a while well,

500
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: and that he they had found letters in her possession

501
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: right that had a foreign so they could even so

502
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 1: I would, I would suspect that he had been overseas

503
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: for a while. There's been three months between their their

504
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: rendezvous in September and then when he disappeared in December.

505
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: That's a three month time span. If you write every

506
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: couple of days, that's going to be a stack of

507
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: letters after a couple of months. Yeah. Well, I I

508
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: was kind of assuming that that he was not hanging

509
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: onto every letter ever that she wrote, but just the

510
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: ones that he had arrived in Europe, and maybe the

511
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: ones were maybe the ones while he was in the

512
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: stage We're back home in a drawer. But I assumed

513
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: that the ones in that sheep were just once that

514
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: he'd received in New York. And let's let's be again, like,

515
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: let's reiterate the fact that those letters come over on ships. Yeah,

516
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: they take a while. It takes a while to get

517
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: there back. So if you have a couple, even just

518
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: like five or six, that that represents a couple of weeks. Yeah,

519
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: And and so he probably that last letter, probably got

520
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: that in who knows, mid to late December, maybe even January.

521
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: And by the way, this competition took place in January

522
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: two not two thousand, January nineteen eleven, yes, yeah, ok,

523
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: And she disappeared in December December. It seemed unlikely to

524
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: me that he was in the States at that point,

525
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: but you know, who knows. Okay, So anyway, we're back.

526
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: We're gonna resume the history just a one more little thing,

527
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna talk about some theories about what happened.

528
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: So anyway, at about six weeks after the disappearance, the

529
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: police persuaded Frances Arnold her dad to hold a press conference,

530
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: and he did, and by this time he had been

531
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: convinced that she was dead, and so He said at

532
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: the press conference that he thought that she had been

533
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: murdered in Central Park and thrown into the reservoir, and

534
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: so everybody in town started drinking bottled water, just like

535
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: in Oregon. Yeah, and then uh, but but there was

536
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: one problem with that theory was, as the police pointed

537
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: out to him that it was you know, the temperature

538
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: was like twenty two degrees or twenty one degrees on

539
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: the day that she disappeared, so and the lake was

540
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: frozen over, and people have been skating on him. So

541
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why he's so convinced. He was so

542
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: convinced that she had been murdered and much less thrown

543
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: him lake. He was so convinced that she was dead

544
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: that in his will, like she later no, she was

545
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: mentioned specifically that he left no provisions for her because

546
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: he had been sufficiently convinced that she was dead. He said,

547
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: in fact, I am intentionally not leaving anything for her

548
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: because in my mind, she's she's dead, which is like

549
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: a step extra, right. It's not only saying like, well,

550
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: my daughter is dead, so I'm just not going to

551
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: mention her. It's saying, you know, I'm going to take

552
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: the time out in my will to say, you know,

553
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: she's absolutely dead, So that to me is a little

554
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: pinky well, and and we're we're about to get into theories, right,

555
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: so let me just throw out this random one. And

556
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: this is fueled by my extensive knowledge of New York

557
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: socialite behavior for watching castle is that they do all

558
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: kinds of weird things to protect the family name. So

559
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: if he is so convinced that she's dead, how do

560
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: we know he didn't have her knocked Well, we don't

561
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: because if he's he's like, I'm just gonna make a provision.

562
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: She she was thrown into the reservoir. That's because that's

563
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: what the guy that I hired her to knock her

564
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: off for whatever offense he deemed so terrible to get

565
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: rid of her for he'd said he had done. And

566
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: then the guy goes to throw her in it's frozen over,

567
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: and then he drags her somewhere else. But I did,

568
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's it's plausible like this guy

569
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: was from the start, he was dam here from the start.

570
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: It sounded like he was convinced she was dead. Well,

571
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: not from the start, I mean, but I think I

572
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: think as time went by, he just became convinced that

573
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: she was dead for god knows what reason, but he

574
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: it's and and again this is the newspaper recounts, which

575
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: makes it difficult. But he seemed to be one of

576
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: the first ones that I noticed saying I'm pretty sure

577
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: she's dead. Yeah. Now, maybe that's him being practical and

578
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: you know, detaching himself in the situation because his daughter

579
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: is missing and he's got no other choice but to

580
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: presume she's dead. Or maybe it's well I sort of know,

581
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: and let me just lean towards this theory and see

582
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: if anybody else follows me with it. Yeah, well he

583
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: and this well, this guy knew his daughter pretty well probably,

584
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: I mean, most people know their their family members really well.

585
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: So the options like she she like says, just left

586
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: just for whatever reason, we just ran away from home.

587
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: You know, he may have known her well enough to

588
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: know that that could never happen. Like for example, like

589
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: look at her behavior regarding her literary rejections. She didn't

590
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: have a lot of stick to itiveness. I mean, he

591
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: maybe understood that she was not. She didn't have what's

592
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: the word that I'm thinking about here, The results a

593
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: huspa to to actually go out and make a life

594
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: of her own. He probably figured that if she did

595
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: run away from home, she would have been back two weeks. Yeah,

596
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: she would be like me running away from home and

597
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 1: making it halfway across the block and sitting there being like,

598
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: why are they coming out? Yeah, this is such a

599
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: long walk on, I'm tired and hurry. She could have

600
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: There were some theories that she'd like, you know, had

601
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: an accident and had amnesia and she was in a

602
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: hospital somewhere, you know, and but obviously they'd searched all that,

603
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: so that possibility was ruled out, you know, and there's

604
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: not so there's not that many possibilities, and his mind

605
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: probably it's like, she's not she hasn't come back, and

606
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: I know she would be back by now. She was

607
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: still alive and it didn't have amnesia, so she's got

608
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: to be dead. And she didn't just up and die

609
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: because she was in good health. So that means you know,

610
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: New York there was there was it was a dangerous

611
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: place back in those days. It's very possible somebody, but anyway,

612
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: we're getting ahead of her. Okay, let's talk about theories.

613
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff out there. There's actually still

614
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: even today, many years later, there's still people talking about this.

615
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: I got I want to do. There's a website called

616
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: web Slewice. I've seen those guys. I almost made it

617
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: to an entire thread and on for years. I mean

618
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: it was a long thread, and boy, I mean and

619
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: I found a few useful little nuggets in there, but

620
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: holy crap, I had the way it too, just a

621
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: ton of bills. I think that's why Steve and I

622
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: just don't do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I found that.

623
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: They I will read about the first dozen and then

624
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: I quit. Yeah. If I can find a link to

625
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: like three good things in a row, I will link

626
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,439
Speaker 1: it and we'll read it. But pretty much other than that,

627
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 1: I just can't. Yeah, it's the issue with all forms.

628
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 1: But we've we've gone into that. Oh yeah, but anyway, Yeah,

629
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of theorizing on those, and I'll talk

630
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: a little bit about that later. But actually, as this

631
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: thread went on that I was reading too, it's like

632
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: the one theory that that came out, it seemed to

633
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: come out on top that more and more than seem

634
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: to believe in was our theory number one, which is

635
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: a Dorothy ran away to join the circus, not the circus,

636
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: but ran away. Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly to the point

637
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: where all these all these people are you know, lots

638
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: of loss. Of these people are saying, you know, I

639
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: just I just I hope she just really had a

640
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: wonderful life, you know, in YadA YadA, and it's like, dudes, really,

641
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and it's kind of a group

642
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: thing kind of thing, because there were other theories that

643
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: were kind of prevalent, and then and then more and

644
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: more of them seemed to trend to this whole that

645
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: she ran away to get away from her dominaring what

646
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 1: is this? Yeah, and so in this interpretation, she was

647
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:21,439
Speaker 1: chafing on her domineering father, although it's not necessarily clear

648
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: that he was domineering. I mean, there's a lot there

649
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: was there stuff like on her Wikipedia page and there

650
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: was a lot of this on this particular webs loose

651
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: thread that her family was just they were completely mean

652
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: to her. They tormented her. That was the whole thing

653
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: about finding out about her writing. Yeah, just steering at

654
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: her and mocking at her. But there's not you know,

655
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: there's not much evidence in that. I mean, this is

656
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: stuff kind of like it gets to the point where

657
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: in this thread, for example, it built to this point

658
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: where they're saying, you know, it started out with all

659
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: they're teasing or they're mocking her, and then it got

660
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: to the point where they were so vicious towards her.

661
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: I don't blame her for leaving, you know. I mean,

662
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: they're all just they just convinced themselves of this. Well,

663
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: and the only the only bit of evidence that really

664
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: I've seen in researching this was that she stopped getting

665
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 1: mail for her writing about how she got a peel box. Yeah,

666
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 1: so that that family didn't see those letters come through. Yeah, okay,

667
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: Well if she had one rejection and then she got

668
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: a peel box, who's a teased her and she got

669
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: a second rejection? Okay, Well that just makes sense. You know,

670
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: my family doesn't need to know what I'm doing, well,

671
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: because they're family. That's the whole thing is, you're twenty

672
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: five years old, you're living at home, but you don't

673
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: want your parents and your family to be in all

674
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: your stuff, right, you know. And you know, so that

675
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean her family was being nasty to her. Yeah,

676
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: that whole theory really like screams to me. The kind

677
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: of demographic that comments on threads like this very often, right,

678
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: and I am not so far out of this demographic

679
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: of the like kind of like mid to late teens,

680
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: early twenties demographic where it's very easy to like play

681
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: the victim and like identify with that person who's like

682
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: being victimized, and like, oh man, her life was so hard,

683
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: it's like you forget that. Oh my gosh, she was

684
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: being given like two thousand, four hundred dollars a month

685
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: just for existing, you know, like she was living. Yeah,

686
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: maybe like her family was tormenting her, but probably not

687
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: tormizing her. Probably just like every family guys, where you're

688
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: just like the writer over there, the artist over there,

689
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: which my family does all the time. Everybody's family does.

690
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: That's part of a healthy family dynamic. But when you're

691
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: in your like mid to late mid to late teens,

692
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: early twenties, you see that as like, my family hates

693
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: mem is so hard. And I think with stories like this,

694
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: it's really easy to grab onto that one little tiny

695
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: nugget of like the way that family life could be

696
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: and ignore everything else and say, well, she was tormented,

697
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: God she left, Yeah exactly, that's right. They're reading each

698
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: other's postings, you know, and so it's sort of it's

699
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: sort of like a rumor, you know, it goes, it

700
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: just gets out of one person resist and somebody adds

701
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: just a little chainmailail. Yeah. So anyway, so there's this,

702
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: there's some series that people have out there that she

703
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,959
Speaker 1: left to start a life of her own. Um and

704
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: other people say that she left to run off with

705
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: George Christcom or somebody else and start a new life.

706
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: But on the flip side, as you were saying, she

707
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: had a pampered life. Everything was taken care of, and

708
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: she had that big fat allowance and she didn't have

709
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: to spend that. If she wanted to buy a stuff,

710
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 1: she could put things on the family account. And as

711
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: we discussed earlier, she wasn't really like a stick to

712
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: her guns kind of lady exactly. You know, she ye

713
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: would have gotten into it and realized it was hard

714
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: and come back and said oops, just kidding. Yeah, And

715
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: even you know, I think that even if she had

716
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: left and actually made a good life for herself, unless

717
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 1: there was some hideous abuse so that I'm not never

718
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: not aware of, I think sooner or later she would

719
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: have contacted her family. I mean yeah. So that's why

720
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: I think this is just pure bos I don't think Yeah, alright,

721
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: the next theory botched abortion part one, Yeah, yeah, abortion,

722
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah alright. So the Pittsburgh Press published an article in

723
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: April ten, nineteen four. This is the kind of coherent

724
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: when we were talking about, right, semi coherent one one

725
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: that contradicts Yeah. Because of because of this article, a

726
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: lot of people are out there theorizing that Dorothy want

727
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: to an abortion clinic in Pittsburgh and died there due

728
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: to a botched abortion. A lot of people make a

729
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 1: lot about the location, which is in Pittsburgh, That's where

730
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: Griscomb lived at the time. He wasn't there, Yeah, and

731
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: but but the fact is, I don't know if he

732
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: was there. Now, he wouldn't have been. If received he

733
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: should have been, you should have been in Europe at

734
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: this well. But if he received a letter in December,

735
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: any time in December, really in Italy, it would have

736
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: had been sent early early December. It seems that he

737
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: could not have been there. Yes. Wait, wait, wait, wait,

738
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: we're making a presumption year that he kept the letter

739
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: in the envelope, that it arrived, and to prove that

740
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: he was there, I gotta be honest with you. I

741
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: think that people were suspicious enough of him that had

742
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: he been lacking the envelope or been able to otherwise

743
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: not able to prove. But these are pretty rich, dude,

744
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: I think he could have persuaded people to not be

745
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: looking for I. I opened the letter and I threw

746
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: the envelope into the fire because I just needed to

747
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: get to get the fire going. Well, I don't I

748
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what kind of stationary she used, but

749
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: back in those days, and I have after my parents died,

750
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: I inherited a lot of the family archives and from

751
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: those days, back in the old old days, stuff that

752
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: want to cross the ocean was generally that they had this.

753
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: It was like this blue paper where the paper of

754
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: the letter itself folded up and made the envelope because

755
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: that's to save way, to save postage. And so of

756
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: course Dorothy didn't necessarily need to do that. She was rich,

757
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: she could actually have a letter in envelope. But back

758
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: in the old days, I can show you some of

759
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: those things. They it was like it just sort of

760
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: really super thin paper and it all folded together neatly

761
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: and made the envelope and the letter was the envelope,

762
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: and so we might have been that. Yeah, a lot

763
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: of people keep boblos. You know, you read the letter

764
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 1: and then you stick the letter back in the envelope

765
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: and you put it in your No, I'm guilty of that.

766
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 1: I admit I have lots of bills that are still

767
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: in their envelopes. Yeah. But anyway, but you know, I'm

768
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: not I'm not. I'm not saying I personally don't believe

769
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: that there's anything to make of the location in Pittsburgh.

770
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,720
Speaker 1: But a lot of people think, whoa who and what's

771
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: what's the basis behind this? Again? Yeah, the Pittsburgh. The

772
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh thing is because that's where Griscom lived. Yeah, that's

773
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 1: where his family. Yeah. So the basis of the whole

774
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: abortion thing is that a lot of people theorized that

775
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 1: during their week together in Boston, he got her pregnant. Yeah,

776
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 1: she needed to get an abortion. Remember that was in September.

777
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 1: So she's like, you know, a couple of months along, yeah, yeah,

778
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: and three months along, she's two or three months somewhere.

779
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: Three about when you know, yeah, you missed a few periods,

780
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know, you miss one, Okay, like, fine, whatever,

781
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 1: I'm stressed. I'm depressed you missed for the last three weeks.

782
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: But yeah, but yeah support of Solidad's yeah yeah. And

783
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: then you know, I guess to you probably make the appointment.

784
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: Three you go to the appointment. I don't know, I

785
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: don't think. Yeah, I can't say yeah. Well so anyway,

786
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: I have no idea. Yeah. So the article included a

787
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: testimony from a local doctor. His name was LUTs and

788
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: he said that one of his female pages of LUTs.

789
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: Why is that making you laugh? Because I just made

790
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: a thirty Rock reference and now we're making another one inadvertently. Sorry, Yeah,

791
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: all right, what is what does dr Let's say? Well,

792
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: the doctor, doctor Lutts apparently apparently told the local d

793
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: A and disappeared in the paper that one of his

794
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: female patients had been to this abortion clinic and in

795
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: some in other parts of the paper actually actually has

796
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: two articles about this in the same day. And the

797
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: other article you call it a sanitarium. This one they

798
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: call it, like, you know, a clinic or whatever. Was

799
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: fairly interchangeable term. And yeah, no, sanitarium doesn't necessarily mean

800
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: what it means today in those days. Well, anyway, so

801
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: he said that one of his female patients told him

802
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: that she had been up there and that she had

803
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: seen Dorothy Arnold at this clinic, at this abortion clinic. Yeah,

804
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: and so this is years after, this is this is

805
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: three years after. It is three years after. Excuse me

806
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: about a little over three years after. But at the

807
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: same time, this newspaper article, and that's not underestimate the

808
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: ability of the press to misquote and distorage. But just

809
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: another paragraph down they do the whole woman patient of

810
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: Dr Lutts says that she saw. But then a paragraph

811
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: down they say the source of Dr Lutz's allegation is

812
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: that the doctor himself, the abortionist who ran the clinic

813
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 1: told him. Well, and then don't they later say that, um, oh,

814
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: actually the tip was from the assistant, the abortionists assistant. Well, yeah,

815
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: but that that actually goes back three years. I'll explain that.

816
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: I'll actually explain that. I'm confused. Yeah, I know, no,

817
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: it is confusing. I'm still because if you read, if

818
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: you read about this, it says that John Keith went

819
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: and investigated a sanitarium in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where she was

820
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: reported to be. Yeah, which is like fo away, Yeah,

821
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: that's a long way to go a walk in a day.

822
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: To me, if the if the clinics owner, the abortionist

823
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: whose name was CC Meredith, if he had actually had

824
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: Dorothy there and killed her in an abortion by botching,

825
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: by botching it, it it seems a little hard for me

826
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: to believe that he would tell somebody else that she

827
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: was there. Yeah, that's because that's an illegal operation to

828
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: start with. Well, let alone just talking about it. Well yeah,

829
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: because yeah, and it's not just you're not just going

830
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: to be if you kill somebody, You're not just gonna

831
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: be tried for illegal abortions. You're gonna be tried for murder. Yeah,

832
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: And so it's something you're gonna keep your mouth shut about.

833
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: You probably, I mean murder, and then all of the

834
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: like hundreds of illegal abortions you've performed, of course I

835
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: think at that point also account to murder. Yeah, yeah, probably,

836
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: or at least manslaughter. But interestingly about this particular little place,

837
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: this this clinic, is that John Keith had been there

838
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: three years before. Oh okay, yeah, lawyer, that's where he

839
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: had been there. That's what in this Philadelphia Press article.

840
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: The main article is about is about the fact that

841
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: the local police had rated this place and there was

842
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 1: a there was a clue this doctor. Yeah, they read

843
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: this place and they busted them and all that stuff,

844
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: and they had this art whole thing that the Dorothy

845
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: Arnold connection from this doctor Lutts, who had heard from

846
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: apparently two different sources that about but as a second

847
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: article where they talked with John Keith about his visit

848
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: three years prior to the same place. Yeah, that's what

849
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 1: you're talking about where he got a tip. So somebody

850
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: in the clinic apparently contacted a lawyer who contacted Keith

851
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: and she said that she was in a sanitarium in

852
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: some accounts, or or that she was, you know, in

853
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: this place. And it's that the story is confused. This

854
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: place alive in this place, and she said that somebody

855
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: was in their sanitarium who claimed to be Dorothy Arnold.

856
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: And you'll find this in some of the accounts that

857
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: are out there in the web, and they make it

858
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: look like it's a separate place, but it's the same place.

859
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, So anyway, John Keith had been there. Apparently

860
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: he had been he had received a tip from a

861
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: lawyer in Pittsburgh who was informed by a person in

862
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: this in this quote unquote sanitarium whose name turned out

863
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: to be or or r r and uh. And so

864
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: he came right straight away to investigate this. And when

865
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: he came into it, when he came in there, he

866
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: and he actually had to coerce Dr Meredith, the a

867
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: worseness who owned the place. He actually had to coerce

868
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: him a bit into letting him in to see him. Basically,

869
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: he threatened to show up with the chief of police

870
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: and her own whole bunch of reporters if he didn't

871
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 1: get a private tour, and so Dr Meredith was like, okay,

872
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: we'll give you to her. And so he shows up,

873
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: walks in the door, and spots the nurse Lucy or

874
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: Lucy or was one of the people who's mentioned in

875
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: this September fourteenth article about the raid. So and he

876
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 1: met and he's explicitly said in this article and said

877
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: her name so and she and he said, did you

878
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: are you the person who knows about Dorothy Arnold? And

879
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: she says yes, And he says, where is she? And

880
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: she points to this room. So he goes into the

881
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: room and looks at this woman that's in there and says,

882
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: and it comes back, I says, that's not her. So,

883
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: so did she actually tell you? Because she had said

884
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: that this woman was saying she was Dorothy Arnold, and

885
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: so he said, did she really tell you that? And

886
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: this woman said, well, no, she didn't actually tell me that,

887
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: but I didn't think you could come otherwise. But I

888
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: think she looks just like Dorothy Arnold. Yeah, so it

889
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: went all the way out there. That was Yeah. But okay,

890
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: so why is this not a good theory because it

891
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: was a terrible lead. Yeah, that one. Well, first of all,

892
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: the reason the reason this is a ludicrous theory is

893
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh is three miles away from Manhattan. So you're not

894
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: gonna you know, you're not going to cover that kind

895
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 1: of ground in a quick afternoon. You're not gonna say

896
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: I went shopping. Yeah, hell no, okay, okay. There are

897
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: some people who have said that they believed that the

898
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 1: Arnold family knew that she was with child and needed

899
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: to go get it taken care of, and they sent

900
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: her away to go get taken care of. So they

901
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: knew she was in Pittsburgh. But then why would why

902
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: would they be calling all of her friends that night

903
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,839
Speaker 1: when she doesn't come back. Also, why would they sund

904
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: her to Pittsburgh. It's New York. Surely there's a reputable abortionist.

905
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure there were plenty of unreputable people doing that

906
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: kind of work. Sure, but I'm sure that, like, you know,

907
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: as reputable as the people in Pittsburgh are, you can

908
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: find in New York. Yeah, it's New York City. That's

909
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that a lot of people like this.

910
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: Whole theory though, is that because Chriscombe lived there and

911
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: he was supposedly a wealthy playboy, then he knew a

912
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: good place to go, you know. So that's that that

913
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: sealed that. Okay, the next reason why this is bs

914
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: um and this just kind of like it's tough on

915
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: the next one too. But the letter, the letter that

916
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: or letters that George Chriscombe actually handed over to the

917
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: family from what he was in Europe. So she would

918
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 1: if she was, if she was knocked up, she would

919
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: be talking about that in those letters. Do you think

920
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 1: he wants to open that can of worms? But here's

921
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: what I will say is that I'm not sure if

922
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 1: she would talk about that if she were just going

923
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: to get it taken care of. You, as a young woman,

924
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 1: think there would be a discussion back I would or

925
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,720
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true. If she had just decided, Nope,

926
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: this isn't the right time for me. My parents are

927
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: not going to allow me to marry this man. I

928
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,439
Speaker 1: clearly cannot have this baby. If she had just made

929
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: that choice on her own and gone and solicited some

930
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: kind of shady abortion back alley abortion, you know, this

931
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: opened the can of worms. Ideally, Yeah, there would have

932
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: been a conversation. But is there always no? Well, maybe not,

933
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,800
Speaker 1: but I think there probably would have been, which is

934
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: why I kind of felt like, you know, he probably

935
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: but but but you're right, I mean, maybe maybe there

936
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: was no mention. Uh, the next reason the tip that

937
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 1: John Keith received from the attorney that was received from

938
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: Lucy or the abortionist assistant. So that absolutely makes no

939
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: sense because if Dorothy Arnold had come, they're been killed

940
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: through abosched abortion and the body is disposed of. Well,

941
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 1: by the way, did I mention they have huge furnaces

942
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: in the bottom of this house when they supposedly burned

943
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: the bodies of the women who died. Yeah, so I

944
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 1: you are you gonna actually find a way to get

945
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: a friend and lawyer for the family out to your

946
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: clinic to look around. That is absolutely absurd unless she

947
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 1: died much later from unknown complications. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe,

948
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: but again, I mean I'm on your side with this one. Yeah. Yeah,

949
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: that was. That one's completely ludicrous. Anyway, our next theory

950
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: botched abortion part two. So in this one, a convicting

951
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: fellow named Edward Glenora's this is actually the most colorful

952
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: story or theory in this entire thing. Yeah. Yeah. He

953
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: said that he was in prison at the time, but

954
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 1: he said that he was paid two hundred fifty dollars

955
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: to bury the body of a young woman in December

956
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: nineteen ten. He said that acquaintance hired him to drive

957
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,720
Speaker 1: a woman from a home in New Rochelle. New Marcelle

958
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: is about fifteen miles northwest of Dorothy's home. It's on

959
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: Long Island Sound. It's supposed to drive her from New

960
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: Rochelle to we Hawk in New Jersey, exactly the wife.

961
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: So they have a new New Ruschelle and Edward Glenn

962
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: Ris and his the guy that hired him. His name

963
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 1: is Little Louis, were met by two men and one

964
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: was named such a New York name, Louis So they

965
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: were got by two men, one named Doc and another

966
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 1: that he described as a quote wealthy, well dressed man

967
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: unquote who reportedly matched George Christcolm's description. And you know,

968
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: I'm not buying any of this, but we'll talk about

969
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: that later. So they loaded this unconscious woman into the car,

970
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,280
Speaker 1: drove her to a house in we Hawk in New Jersey,

971
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: and then Little Louis told Glenorius during the drive that

972
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: the woman was Dorothy Arnold. Glenora said he recognized her,

973
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: and then the next day Little Louie contacted him again

974
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 1: to you quote unquote finished the job. So they went

975
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: back to we Hawking. Doc told the man that the

976
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 1: woman had died at that home in we Hawk and

977
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: during an operation, so Little Louis and Glenora's drove the

978
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: woman's body back to the home in New Rochelle wrapped

979
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: her body the sheet, buried her in the cellar. Wait.

980
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: I thought they buried her in a cethern west Point

981
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: accounts very okay, Okay, this is like that's that's That's

982
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: why I'm asking because I know that this is one

983
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: of those things where he gets kind of kind of

984
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: money in the telling. Yeah, I know, they actually dug

985
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: up sellers and homes in the area, but couldn't find

986
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: any human remains. Uh So, anyway, why is this bs okay?

987
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: Number one, I don't think she was pregnant to begin with.

988
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: I mean number so number two, I mean she might

989
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: have been, but uh new ourselves about fifteen miles northeast

990
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: of the family home. She could have she could have

991
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: jetted up there, left at home. Hey, I'm gonna go shopping.

992
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: Jet up to New ro show, get your abortion, get back.

993
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: But instead she walked the other direction. She walked south,

994
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: got chocolate and got chocolate, bought a book, and you know,

995
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 1: and hung out. So obviously, boy, couldn't she have gotten

996
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: a right after that point? She could have? But the

997
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 1: thing about it is is like you're kind of pushing it.

998
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: You got to be home by dinner time, and the

999
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: last time you're seeing is when you run into your

1000
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: friend outside the bookstore two pm. So it's like, and

1001
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: don't forget, don't forget. I mean, they didn't have much

1002
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 1: in the way of transportation of these days. Cars were

1003
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: a really new things. Oh yeah, they were slow and terrible.

1004
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: They were like what five probably a little better than that,

1005
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: but she probably would have taken a horse and buggy

1006
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: at this time, but you know, and so fifteen miles

1007
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 1: and a horse and buggy, that's a little bit of

1008
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 1: time compared to jumping in your car today. But well,

1009
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 1: I can I can just see though, and I'm just

1010
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: playing Devil's adcate here. But she says, I'm gonna do

1011
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: this and then I'm gonna go, And she's got a

1012
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: terrible sense of time. I mean, we all know those

1013
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: friends who say, it'll only take me this much time

1014
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,919
Speaker 1: to do this. So I'm going to do these other

1015
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 1: things in the morning, and I'll be at year place

1016
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: by eleven o'clock and then they show up at three

1017
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: in the afternoon because they have no sense of time

1018
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: and they cannot judge how long things take. So she

1019
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: might have thought, well, i'll go get a book so

1020
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 1: that I have something to read on the way there

1021
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: and the way back, and it'll be fine. And if

1022
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: I late, well I'll just say that I'm ill and

1023
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 1: I had to stop because i didn't feel good. Yeah,

1024
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm obviously this is a conjecture, but I'm

1025
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,919
Speaker 1: just looking at it as well. Maybe this could be

1026
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 1: the thought process that was involved. If she really was pregnant.

1027
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: Want you again, I'm not positive she was, but I'm

1028
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: just saying, if this was, this is a possibility, and

1029
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 1: that seems I know tons of people who do that

1030
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: crap all the time. But yeah, and and I know

1031
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: people like that too, but this is a this is

1032
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 1: a pretty important thing. This is a big deal. You know,

1033
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: you're knocked up and and and this is your salvation.

1034
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: You're gonna go get this abortion and everything. It's gonna

1035
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: it's gonna save you from being publicly publicly humiliated and

1036
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 1: cast up by your family. Pretty huge steal. That's something

1037
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure she would try to be on time for.

1038
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 1: I don't think she'd screw around for hours walking around

1039
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: Manhattan buying chocolate and books. Don't you think she might

1040
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: have been making a day of it? Yeah, I mean,

1041
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: not not to be aloof about what she was doing,

1042
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: but she might have said, well, I'm gonna do these things,

1043
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: so at least I do these things and then I

1044
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: will go take care of that, or trying to cover

1045
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: her tracks knowing. Okay, so here are the two places

1046
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: or you know, two best places that I have family

1047
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: counts right that aren't near this clinic that I'm going

1048
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,399
Speaker 1: to so it doesn't look like I'm going to this

1049
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: clinic or this house or whatever. You know, I have

1050
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: an account at this chocolate place. It's a couple of

1051
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 1: miles away. And then I can go buy a book

1052
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: and oh I ran into a friend. How convenient, Oh

1053
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:36,800
Speaker 1: my goodness. And then you know, yeah, I mean, you

1054
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: know either way. Look, let's let's remember this is horse

1055
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 1: and Buggy days. Horse and Buggy goes what's five six min?

1056
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it? Horse and Buggy days? They were

1057
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: the very yeah, the car there there were actually people actually,

1058
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 1: believe it or not, Henry Ford was not making model

1059
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 1: ts at this time. Yet the first thing that came

1060
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 1: out kind of mass produced was Oldsmobile. Was that producing cars,

1061
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: but not huge numbers. Uh, They're just weren't. And there

1062
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,720
Speaker 1: were a lot of small manufacturers making weird clap tropy

1063
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: kind of not everybody was making their own Oh yeah,

1064
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,359
Speaker 1: but but no, mostly it was horse and buggy, And

1065
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: so you have to expect that if she had caught

1066
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: a horse and buggy, she had to go all the

1067
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: way to New Rochelle from her place which is now

1068
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: after all her miles of walking now with Laura Manhattan,

1069
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: she had actually added miles to her to her journey

1070
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: to New Rochelle by walking in the direction that she did.

1071
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: It's going to take quite a while to get there.

1072
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: And then I don't know how long abortions I spent

1073
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: so long since I've had an abortion, I can't remember

1074
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: how long it took. That was terrible, absolutely terrible. I

1075
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 1: guess I just kept thinking cars because it sounded like,

1076
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: um gosh, the felon. Yeah, he said they were they

1077
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: were supposed to drive her. But driving back in those days,

1078
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: you know, it means driving in a buggy or a

1079
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: wife model. Were like, okay, all right, I guess I

1080
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: just have this yeah, view of new view of what

1081
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: cars are. So what what what are the other non

1082
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: abortion theories. Let's let's get to do a different theory? Okay,

1083
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: another Another theory is suicide? Another depressing to more depressing,

1084
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: thank you. You know. That's the thing about it is,

1085
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: I like one reason that so many people are in

1086
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: love with the whole idea that she ran away to

1087
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: to start, because that somehow the nicest theory. Yeah, every

1088
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 1: everything else and everything else is kind of horrible. The

1089
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: last the last minutes have just been joying. That's getting

1090
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,439
Speaker 1: some more joy. Obviously, if I could choose a fate

1091
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: for Dorothy, I would I would have her runaway and

1092
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 1: have a happy life someone you know, But I don't

1093
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 1: think it worked out that way personally. Well, okay, what

1094
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 1: is this people believe, you know, based on based on

1095
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: the fact that she had been rejected. Of course, what

1096
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: was said in a letter to George Griscomb about how

1097
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: she was kind of down and dejected because her letter

1098
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: her essays had been rejected. And even John Keith, the attorney,

1099
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 1: said years afterwards it that he believed that she committed

1100
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 1: suicide because of her literary failures and because she felt

1101
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: so she got rejection from two different Yeah, she got

1102
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: But you know, I think I think it's this is

1103
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 1: this is possible, but I don't think it's necessarily true

1104
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: because number one, the body was never found, which is

1105
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: still possible. I mean, she could have jumped off the

1106
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge and her body drifted out to see was

1107
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: never seen again. Maybe. Of course, there was lots of

1108
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: foot traffic on the and and horse and buggy traffic

1109
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 1: on the Brooklyn Bridge in those days, so she probably

1110
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to jump off that bridge or

1111
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: any other bridge without being certainly not at mid day

1112
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: or or mid afternoon. And the other thing is that

1113
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: not the people who saw like where of course your

1114
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: families are before she left and her friend Gladys King

1115
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: saw her, none of and none of them noticed anything

1116
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: unusual or depressive about her. And so that seems to

1117
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 1: be the sort of thing that is really really open

1118
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 1: to suggestion. Right. If but he says, oh, well, maybe

1119
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 1: she jumped off a bridge, they'll be like, oh, she

1120
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: did seem a little depressed. She even seemed like the

1121
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: asiest depressed. Yeah, although you know, again, on the other hand,

1122
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: people who are about to do things like that oftentimes

1123
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 1: you kind of hear descriptions of them as being like

1124
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 1: really liberally. Yeah, maybe she felt like shed made this

1125
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 1: decision into like that. But my theory is that is

1126
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 1: that maybe she was depressed, but she was shopping and

1127
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: she's you know, that just made her happy. She was

1128
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 1: a shopoholic. Ultimately, she was shopping and couldn't find the

1129
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: right size and it made her even more depressed. Yeah,

1130
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: that's probably what she found. This beautiful smock god just

1131
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 1: going downhill, you too, This is spiraling out of control? Yeah,

1132
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: come on, what is what what's what's the next? They

1133
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 1: because it's got to be better than the theory. Okay,

1134
01:00:52,680 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: so she was abductive. Abductive? Yeah, you are no longer

1135
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 1: allowed to pick your own stories. I mean, I don't

1136
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 1: like this theory either, but it's it's plausible, and actually

1137
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: I find it most plausible at all, because I managed

1138
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 1: to stumble across some crime stats from the New York

1139
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: City Police Department from those years from nineteen ten. Yeah,

1140
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: I luck, I just lucked upon it. And of them,

1141
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: in the boroughs of Manhattan, the Bronx, and Richmond, which

1142
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,959
Speaker 1: is what we now call Staten Island, thousands of people

1143
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: I can't remember the number that to like four or

1144
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: five thousand people were reported missing just in nineteen ten alone.

1145
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: And of these three men, two sixteen women were never

1146
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: heard from again. So that's five people that disappeared permanently.

1147
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: And so some of them, I'm sure it ran off

1148
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 1: to join the circus or whatever, or you know, left

1149
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: the area and just said signor and everybody they knew

1150
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 1: there was no reason to maintain ties. Yeah, and so

1151
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: I'm showing. So I'm sure plenty of those people um lived,

1152
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: but but a substantial chunk wound up in shallow graves

1153
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: and at the bottom of the river. That's what I think,

1154
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to remember, and guys help me out

1155
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong. Is weren't opium den's

1156
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 1: kind of a thing at that time frame or is

1157
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: that earlier in history? I mean, I can guess it

1158
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: was like the eighteen seventies and eighties. Maybe kind of

1159
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: the nineties, yeah, you know later. But there's a lot

1160
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: of drugs these days that they this is just a

1161
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 1: weird cyclical thing of they're popular and everybody does them,

1162
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: and then they fall out of fashion. Then they start

1163
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 1: coming back. Maybe they're not as big, but you know,

1164
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 1: it's uh, there's a lot of stuff that you heard

1165
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 1: about the news that drug Yeah, I gotta say that.

1166
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: You know, when drugs fall out of fashion, that doesn't

1167
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: mean everybody stops doing it. Right. For example, is not

1168
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 1: nearly as big as it used to be, but it's

1169
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 1: still still. I just wonder, is you know opium dens

1170
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 1: were a thing where it was known that heroin, for example,

1171
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 1: or heroin they would know they would go they go

1172
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:09,240
Speaker 1: to this place and they would do it and they

1173
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: would stay there while they were quote unquote experiencing their

1174
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: high and they leave, but occasionally they just o D

1175
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:18,439
Speaker 1: and they wouldn't wake back up. And who's to say

1176
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 1: that this girl didn't have something some kind of habit

1177
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 1: like that, because she's got the money for it. So

1178
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: she goes out on a quote unquote shopping trip, and

1179
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 1: this time she didn't go charge anything in the family

1180
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 1: because she didn't find anything that day. But she just

1181
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: she went to that place and chung at all day,

1182
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: came home and and no talent, she did not. But

1183
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 1: then she comes home and she does what she does.

1184
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 1: But one day she does done come home from it.

1185
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: But I'm not saying that this girl had a drug habit.

1186
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: But I'm just looking at well, if if we're going

1187
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,919
Speaker 1: to say that you know, it's suicide or death by

1188
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 1: some other means, well it's possible that o D. Because

1189
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing that happened at that time

1190
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: as well. That happened time, right, is like the kidnapping

1191
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: of white women to sell into slavery process. Say yeah,

1192
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: I mean across dreaming, that's the thing that still happens today.

1193
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: But you know that certainly happened. I mean, let's be honest,

1194
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 1: like Oregon has the Shanghai tunnels, like those are like

1195
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,919
Speaker 1: later than that time period that it's happened for so

1196
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: long in our history than like who knows. I mean,

1197
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: there's so many different options that could have happened to

1198
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:30,439
Speaker 1: this woman. Yeah, so I'm gonna like, I'm gonna say

1199
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: one thing against the opium slash heroine theory is that

1200
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: she was she was well known around town, and so

1201
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: she had to really seriously worry about getting found and busted.

1202
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe she had to have it, and I

1203
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: to how many Hollywood stars do we discover had a

1204
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 1: problem for years? Yeah, I just don't think she would

1205
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 1: have gone to an opium den. She might have had

1206
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: a connection somewhere. But I hate to talk about this

1207
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: more because I didn't. But I'm not I'm not saying

1208
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 1: I'm saying wrong and I'm run yeah yeah, no, no no,

1209
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 1: I just and I hate it because so many of

1210
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:05,439
Speaker 1: these serious kind of track her names through the mud

1211
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: an abortion. Oh yeah, she got, she got, she was

1212
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 1: a heroin addict and all that stuff. But it's possibility.

1213
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the simplest, easiest thing, though, really

1214
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 1: is just that there was a lot of street crime.

1215
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: Somebody just knocked her on the head, robbed her, possibly

1216
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: raped her, and then murdered her. There could have been

1217
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 1: one of those. It could have been one of those

1218
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: deleos where she's like, do you know who I am?

1219
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: And then and now and she says, I'm a wealthy

1220
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: social and I'm famous around town, and then suddenly the

1221
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 1: guys like, oh crap, I was just gonna rob you

1222
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: in Rapion. Now I gotta kill you because I mean,

1223
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 1: they're gonna take this stuff seriously. And so it could

1224
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 1: have been something like that, but who the hell knows.

1225
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I personally hope she ran off to join

1226
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 1: the circus and had a happy life. I really do.

1227
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: I really hope that she had a happy life with

1228
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 1: the Dancing Bear. Yeah, and that's all there was, too,

1229
01:05:55,160 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: became yeah, I you know, I I sincerely hope so too,

1230
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 1: because like what other options? Because a really nice one

1231
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 1: of the most depressing shows we've ever done, And I

1232
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 1: Am not letting him pick his own stories anymore more.

1233
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 1: From now on, you have to run him by us.

1234
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: That I didn't. I did run it by you, as

1235
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: I recall, Yeah, in about all of two seconds, oh

1236
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: this and she disappeared. Okay, that's fine. We're not running by,

1237
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 1: We're just like we're vetting. Yeah, yeah, I I forget

1238
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 1: it was I had her and some other disappearing person.

1239
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 1: It's like or no, some other person who's mysteriously well,

1240
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 1: which one sounds more interesting to you? And so go

1241
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 1: with Dorothy? So yeah, sutly, well, truly, I just wish

1242
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 1: she ended up in oz Yeah, with her dog Toto. Yeah, Toto, Yeah, Toto.

1243
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: It's actually Toto. I think that actually actually too Toto

1244
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 1: spelled spelled tote, but she as pronounced it Toto. What's

1245
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 1: the other reason I hate that movie? Yeah, she mis

1246
01:06:56,440 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: pronounced the dog's name. Yeah. So anyway, it's so favorite

1247
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: theories anybody the Circus, the Circus? I really, I like,

1248
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 1: I hope it's the circus. I really I wanted to

1249
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: beat the circus at this point, I think that it's

1250
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 1: you know, it seems like it's there's so many different

1251
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 1: things that really could have happened to her. Yeah, it's

1252
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: really no use. I mean, I personally think that the

1253
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: odds are that it was random street crime. Yeah. And

1254
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: the only reason that this makes this like a high

1255
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 1: profile unsolved mr right is that she was like a socialite,

1256
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, like this happens the same Yeah, it did

1257
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 1: well apparently from all the disappearing people in New York

1258
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 1: in that year. We're talking about this one because she

1259
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: was rich. Yeah, anyway, sad story. But anyway, but I

1260
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: will say for the record that I'm I'm pretty convinced

1261
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 1: that there were there was no botched abortion. I don't

1262
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 1: think it was that. I mean, I think it's pretty convincing.

1263
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 1: I don't think she was pregnant, so at least we're

1264
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 1: not dragging her through the mud, right Yeah, yeah, hopefully.

1265
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 1: All Right, So anyway, saying Aara Dorothy, that ends our mystery.

1266
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 1: Another successful us to resolved and all kinds of we're

1267
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 1: just so the listeners know Steve and I are both

1268
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 1: giving him the hall what pin story? Alright, said I'm

1269
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: gonna cry it was a pathetic sense is. Yeah, you're

1270
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: probably wondering where you can find our fabulous stuff and

1271
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 1: download it, although that's kind of stupid because you're already

1272
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:25,400
Speaker 1: you've already done it. But you can find us on

1273
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 1: iTunes and you can download our stuff off of our

1274
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 1: website also Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Uh, you can

1275
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: set an email at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com.

1276
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:40,599
Speaker 1: You can also get a time to download us and

1277
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 1: put us on your iPod. You can stream us directly

1278
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 1: using Stitcher, all right, and you can find us and

1279
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 1: of course like us, like the hell out of us

1280
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 1: on Facebook. All right. Now it's time for that your

1281
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 1: favorite part of the episode, which is listener email. So

1282
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 1: today we've got an email from Crarry I won't tell

1283
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:58,680
Speaker 1: you his last name, and and Crairy. As you know,

1284
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:00,599
Speaker 1: most of most of our emails are from people who

1285
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:02,680
Speaker 1: talk about how they adore us and they wish they

1286
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 1: were us and stuff like this. Yeah, Creary is not

1287
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm not gonna call this email negative, but

1288
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: it's a slightly critical one. And well it's it's it's

1289
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:15,160
Speaker 1: it's it's an honest conversation. It's a thoughtful, it's good,

1290
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 1: good email. And and I'm I'm glad that Crearry wrote

1291
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,599
Speaker 1: to us to tell us his concerns. So, going back

1292
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 1: to the Montak episode the Montalk Project, let me quote

1293
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 1: from from Clary's email. In the discussion of the quote

1294
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 1: going back in time to write the Civil War nonsense,

1295
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:33,920
Speaker 1: someone I think it was Joe, and I think I

1296
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 1: remember saying this. I checked it. Yeah, I mentioned that

1297
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 1: slavery would have given way to industrialization. I apologize as

1298
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: and this is still Crary talking as one should never

1299
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 1: argue counterfactuals, but it's a subject a bit near to

1300
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 1: my heart. I'm gonna skip a little bit here. However,

1301
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 1: I think such hand waving as slavery is historical, as

1302
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 1: an historical force simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. And

1303
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 1: I probably I apologize to for you, but it's kind

1304
01:09:57,920 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 1: of a long email, so I'm not gonna read everything

1305
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: work for word back to your email with Creary. While

1306
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:04,880
Speaker 1: the institution of slavery may well have evanesced in the

1307
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 1: face of the modern capitalist state, we should remember that

1308
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:10,880
Speaker 1: there were some in the South who opposed this very

1309
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 1: ideal of the modern economy. And that's very true on

1310
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 1: this Vegan, not not Crearry talking in America and in Europe,

1311
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:19,680
Speaker 1: there were lots of people who are very opposed to

1312
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 1: the system and the capitalism, and a lot of those

1313
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 1: people are still with us today. And so it wasn't

1314
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 1: an inevitability. And so Creary is quite correct in saying that.

1315
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 1: So let me skip ahead. It's and also the spector

1316
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: Crearry also even slavery word to go. This does not

1317
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:37,839
Speaker 1: mean the legacy. Would we still live with the legacy

1318
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: today in this country? And he goes on a little

1319
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 1: bit um and I'm not so I'm not going to

1320
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 1: quote anymore, but not your email is not worth quoting

1321
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 1: and its entirety because it's a very good, thoughtful emil.

1322
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: It's a very good, lengthy email. Yeah, And I think

1323
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 1: that's that's the hard part, is it. It's a it's

1324
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 1: a very lengthy email, has a lot of good historical points.

1325
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,599
Speaker 1: It makes some very good points. Yeah. I think you're right.

1326
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 1: It's it's a good, it's good email. Yeah, yeah, no,

1327
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 1: it's it's it's good. It's great actually, and and uh, well,

1328
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 1: I thank you for bringing it up because I think

1329
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 1: I think that Crairy, if you saw this what I

1330
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 1: said that way, then probably some other people did. So

1331
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:13,599
Speaker 1: I really thank you for bringing it up and giving

1332
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 1: me the chance to talk about what I really meant.

1333
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 1: I think what I said was capitalism was eventually going

1334
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:22,759
Speaker 1: to wipe out slavery. Industrialization. Industrialization would wipe out slavery,

1335
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: which I think it would have. Um that does That's

1336
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:28,639
Speaker 1: not the same as saying that I think that whether

1337
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: the South versus the North winds is six and one

1338
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 1: half a dozen of the other. I didn't mean that

1339
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: at all. And obviously it's a good thing that the

1340
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 1: North one if you're if you're a slave, you know,

1341
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 1: and the question of whether you're set free today versus

1342
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: fifty years from now, well that's pretty huge. So and so, yeah,

1343
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: I mean, and at the same one, another reason I

1344
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: sort of said what I said is that I don't

1345
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: think that post Civil War things really improved that much

1346
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 1: for black folks in America. It really took a long time.

1347
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 1: Well yeah, uh oh, yeah, I mean there was segregation

1348
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 1: and Jim Crow I mean in lynchings and all kinds

1349
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 1: of stuff. I mean, you know, I mean, a hell

1350
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 1: of a lot of the slaves wound up going back

1351
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,280
Speaker 1: and working on the same plantations they've been slaves on,

1352
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 1: except as chaircroppers, so they're still technically free. They were

1353
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 1: better off. But anyway, I'm not that's again, I'm not

1354
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 1: saying six and one half doesn't the other. It's a

1355
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,720
Speaker 1: great thing with the North one. And uh anyway, but

1356
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 1: like I said, Gray, thanks a lot for the email.

1357
01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 1: I appreciate the mention of all this stuff. Yeah, this

1358
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 1: is something that we don't really realize, you know, because

1359
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 1: we all I've known each other long enough to that

1360
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 1: like we know what we meantally, you know, we said

1361
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 1: something like that, We're like, oh, yeah, totally, we totally

1362
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:43,600
Speaker 1: get what you mean. And then we realize I mean, yeah,

1363
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 1: everybody knows that. For all our listeners to yeah, feel

1364
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 1: free to write emails like this. Don't feel like you

1365
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 1: need to just write in and send us love letters.

1366
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you can be critical, you can you know,

1367
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:54,919
Speaker 1: you can tell us how this, how much we discussed

1368
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:58,559
Speaker 1: you I don't know. I I We have gotten stuff

1369
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 1: in the past that have been constructive criticism, and that's

1370
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 1: that is valid stuff to send us. And we have

1371
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:08,639
Speaker 1: gotten a number of it in the past, and we've

1372
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 1: only benefited from it. It's only been something that has

1373
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 1: helped make us better because there's weird little ticks that

1374
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:17,519
Speaker 1: we have done or things that we have said, and

1375
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:21,679
Speaker 1: off air folks may not realize it, but we've had

1376
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: long discussions of figuring out how to make sure certain

1377
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 1: things happen that are better for the show. So this,

1378
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 1: this is a very positive thing. And now we know

1379
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 1: not to talk about the Civil War. No, I mean,

1380
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, we don't know, like you know, there's so

1381
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 1: much that we're a fairly new podcast. We're like a

1382
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 1: year in. We do this for fun, and you know

1383
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 1: we're getting a fairly good response. We're occasionally yeah, and

1384
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:53,400
Speaker 1: so it's great that you guys let us know when

1385
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 1: we do things, because you know we're we're in a bubble. Yep,

1386
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 1: We're a little little bit of a bubble. Okay. So anyway,

1387
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 1: that's it again, Crairy, thanks a lot for your email,

1388
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 1: which I again think was very thoughtful and intelligent and

1389
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:10,599
Speaker 1: appreciate it and feel free to write us again too. Alright,

1390
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 1: so for it thinking sideways the podcast. This is good night, really,

1391
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:18,439
Speaker 1: that's what you're gone. I can't, I can't, all right, Okay,

1392
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:22,360
Speaker 1: Well this is Steve and I'm just gonna say goodbye. Hey,

1393
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:26,600
Speaker 1: hey guys, why do you white girls travel in um

1394
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:32,760
Speaker 1: packs of odd numbers? Because they literally can't even just

1395
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:36,599
Speaker 1: like I can't right now, Please somebody turn out the recording.

1396
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:38,519
Speaker 1: Oh so, what did the five fingers say in the

1397
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:39,919
Speaker 1: face slap