WEBVTT - Musk and Altman Enter 'Post Old Emails' Era of Feud 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:09.240 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.320 Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:18.480 More than half the satellites in space are owned and 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:22.759 controlled by one man. Well, he's a legitimate super genius. 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:23.919 I mean legitimate. 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.759 He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:27.560 it will be different. 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:28.520 He'll vote Republican. 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.240 There is a reason the US government is so reliant 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:31.680 on him. 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.920 Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:38.880 Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.240 Welcome to elan Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:58.360 It's Tuesday, December sixteenth. I'm your host, David Popadopolis. This week, 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:00.920 there's a chill in the air. Well, it's been drafty 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.160 for a while actually, but it's absolutely ice cold right 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.240 now between Sam Altman and Elon Musk, as their feud 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.679 enters that digging up old emails and posting them on 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.160 the internet. Phase we'll examine what AI is put out 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.840 there about Musk, and then take a deeper look at 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:21.080 Donald Trump's NASA pick Jared Isaacman and what his long 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:25.120 standing relationship with Elon could mean for SpaceX. Joining me 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.440 are our stalwarts, Dana Hull and Max Chafkin. Dana, Hello, 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.559 Hey Max, David. 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.840 Every time you say the NASA, I think you're gonna 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:40.160 mention the county executive of NASA county rather than days. 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:45.680 I'm going to get the pronunciation right. Say it for me, Max, NASA, NASA, NASA, NASA, 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:49.320 NASA next to Suffolk, which is what These are all 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:54.400 my never change, These are all my favorite counties. And 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.200 then later on Lauren Grush, our Space reporter, will talk 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.520 to us about the Jared Isaacman selection. Oh and then wait, 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.920 Elon's also building a preschool for kids in Texas. A 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.079 little on that at the end from Dana, and maybe 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:14.680 time permitting a little mail from the mail bag. We 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:20.040 start with Open AI and the spat that is now 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:25.440 building rapidly with Musk and you know, Max, the other 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:30.080 day I read that Altman said Samueltman, the head of 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:34.880 Open AI, said that he was quote tremendously sad about 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.959 the feud with Elon, And you know, I'm I'm I'm 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.680 sure he is. It can't be cool to be in 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.680 this bruising battle with an old pal of yours. But 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.120 you know, for us here lovers of feud. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.440 There are so many good feuds going on right now. 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:54.400 There's Elon and Gary Gensler, there's Elon in the post office, 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:55.440 and then there's this one. 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:56.760 Like you said, this. 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.880 One all of a sudden, out of the blue of sorts, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:05.000 has become such a fever, has hit such a fevered 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:08.240 pitch that it not only is appearing on the show, 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.679 but is appearing as our lead segment. So, Max, when 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:15.840 this trove of messages was revealed the other day by 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.280 open ai, what exactly did they show? 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.800 The messages show what open Ai and Sam Altman have 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.639 contended all along, which is that Elon Musk complaints And 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.320 just to remind people, the complaint is that Elon Musk 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.920 funded this not for profit with the idea that he 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.360 was going to, you know, help the world stave off 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:41.600 AI apocalypse, and Sam Altman and his colleagues essentially took 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.600 the money and turned it into a for profit company, 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.520 cutting out one Elon Musk. And what the emails show 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.440 is that at various times, according to the emails that 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:54.240 have been released, And I think you need to be 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.080 a little bit careful when you're talking about this stuff 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.080 because we because obviously this can be selective. We're not seeing. 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.720 Either that the emails are bogus, but that you are 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:04.200 just that you're seeing. 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.560 A selection of emails that they found and they put 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:09.520 up on a website. We are not seeing the product 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.840 of discovery. I'm sure if Elon Musk went. 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.960 Through how do we okay? So we're not seeing these 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:16.800 through court document. 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:17.960 No, this is just open. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:23.520 AI is responding in public and assumedly they've they've already 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.039 responded in court at various times. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:26.680 Elon Musk has refiled the suit. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.039 So you know, can I interupt for a second. How 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.720 common is it when you've got a legal spat in 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.840 court going on, that you are also doing this publicly 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:39.320 in this way it. 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:41.919 Happens, I mean, you know, as as you know, like 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.960 a lot of times when companies sue each other, it 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.920 is partly a negotiation, and of course there are different 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.440 way you know, you're you're negotiating for money essentially over however, 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.520 whatever was taken from you, and companies will try to 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.320 negotiate in court. There's a strategy where you like, don't 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.120 talk to the press at all, you let the court 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.480 filings speak for them. But there's also a course of 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:03.240 strategy where you brief the press at every turn. 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:05.320 I mean, we've all seen sort of TV. 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:09.080 Lawyers and and open AI and Elon Musk to some extent, 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.480 are following the latter strategy. Elon is filing these lawsuits, 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.280 but he's also tweeting about it. There he's he's giving 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:16.679 Sam Altman a nickname. 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.720 Swindley. Sam is the is the nickname he's supplied Dick. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:22.800 I've said it a few times, but I think I 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.320 just mostly find it amusing that Elon Musk has adopted 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.320 the Trump affectation of giving people demeaning nicknames. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.679 So so I just see it as more of that evolution. 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.520 But anyway, the emails show or seem to show that 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.479 Elon Musk first of all, was supportive of the idea 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.440 of making it a for profit company because they were 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.920 all worried that, according to the emails again that they 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.920 were not gonna have enough money to build these massive 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:54.880 computing clusters. And secondly, they show that Elon Musk had 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.600 a very real fixation this will not come as a 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.960 surprise the listeners of the show, a very real fixation 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:04.320 on control, on owning a lot of this very eventually 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.880 very valuable company and also being able to control it 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.240 and also naming himself CEO, and when he was thwarted there, 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.679 he tried to kind of merge it with Tesla. Now again, 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:16.200 this is the open ai story. I think we have 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:18.880 to assume that the story could be more complicated than 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:19.479 these emails. 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:20.880 But that's that's what the email show. 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.120 To Max's point, there's there's court and then there's like 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.240 the court of public opinion. And I think that open 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.600 ai has taken the tack of as we're like responding 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.440 in court, let's also respond publicly on our blog. And 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:35.680 they're you know, they're putting out these blogs where they're like, 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.840 here's the latest, here's the latest. And I think that 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.120 that's very tactical by Sam Altman and his supporters because 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.000 they have receipts and they're making them. It really kind 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:48.480 of shows, you know, that Elon is talking out of 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.280 both sides of his mouth. I mean, he wanted it 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.760 to be a for profit company when he was in control, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.120 and then as soon as he lost control, he's been 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.000 digging them for trying to be for profit. And so 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:01.800 whoever he's got the servers there at open ai, I mean, 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.240 they've got these emails going back years and they're just 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.680 dribbling them out like bit by bit. This is not 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.240 the only first time that we've seen the emails come out. 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:11.760 And it's just a reminder to all journalists that like, 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.480 lawsuits are a gold mind, and like you got to 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:16.440 look at all the you got to look at all 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.840 the appendency appendencies, and you've got to read all the emails, 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.960 and old emails are just great. I love them. If 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.200 you have any, send them to us Elon Inc. 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.560 At Bloomberg, gott Neet. Just just a reminder. It can 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.000 also go the other way, right. You can sort of 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.000 fight a lawsuit by issuing a press release or calling 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.160 a press conference. You can also use a lawsuit to 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.000 generate positive publicity. And I think all along we have 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.960 seen as we've talked about this dispute, we have seen 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.960 it as partly a way for Elon Musk to call 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.440 attention to all the amazing work he is doing at 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:53.320 x Ai, his ai chatbot competitor, which is very importantly 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:57.160 a competitor open Ai, to help attract employees. He is 0:07:57.240 --> 0:07:59.840 making a statement with this lawsuit as much as he 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:03.800 is asking the court to stop open ai from turning 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.280 into a not for profit from turning into a four. 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.520 No help us for a second there and remind us 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.360 where exactly at this point we feel like x Ai 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.760 fits in the constellation of the Musk Empire. It was 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.480 obviously it is perhaps the very newest of all his companies, 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:26.080 but it seems like one that potentially has a rapidly 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:27.600 growing valuation. 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.760 Of course, all probably the third most valuable company in 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:32.280 the empire. 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:33.720 Boring. 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:37.680 You're not going to believe this, but the tunneling industry 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:39.440 is not the growth industry that. 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.959 I'm offended for. The men and women are boring the 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.520 chat because you have a third just but so Tesla 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:47.360 SpaceX x Ai. 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.960 Yeah, and I'm not saying that's because they've created more 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.200 values to come, but but it's this is just how 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.160 investors are valuing these things. I don't think it's unreasonable 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.079 to think that that value is in the tens of 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:05.880 billions of dollars because look, they've built a credible chat bot. 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.720 Now I think you can you can quibble with elon 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.960 Musk and I'm sure open Ai would that, just just 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.679 like how much of open AI's business has he replicated, 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.160 how much of open aas customer bases? He replicated but 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:21.080 he's built this valuable thing. He's also acquired a very 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:26.319 large cluster of these GPUs, the chips that train AI 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.200 algorithm rhythms. He's he's got, you know, one of the 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.440 players in this industry. And open ai is worth a 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.280 lot of money. So even if it's not worth as 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.800 much as open ai, it could easily be worth you know, 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.120 something like fifty billion dollars at least as far as 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:41.880 some investors are going to see it. And that is 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.680 interestingly not only like the third would be like the 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:46.880 third biggest and most valuable company in the Musk Empire, 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.680 but it would probably make it more valuable than good 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:51.920 old x you know, Twitter, which he bought for forty 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.400 four billion, but which has seen its valuation fall since then. 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.400 Yeah, and Xai, like they built this massive cluster. 0:09:58.440 --> 0:09:59.120 What are they calling it? 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.160 Colossus? I forget, I forget the naming conventions for but 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.960 like the but the data center that they that they've 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.239 built with all these Nvidia GPUs and Memphis is called Colossus. 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.360 And you know, if this is like a gold rush 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.560 where basically whoever has the most chips or the most 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:18.440 GPUs wins, I mean, Elon is in the game and 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.640 Sam Altman is his biggest competitor in this race. If 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:25.280 you look at the constellation of companies SpaceX SO, Tesla, 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:32.559 SpaceX x AI, then you've got you know, Neuralink. 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.720 Boring and X You've got X last, and you've got 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:37.760 Boring second or last. Just for the record, I just 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.200 want to say it. I mean to me, I value 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:44.000 Boring as the most valuable of them all. 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:46.559 Can I just fly a couple of fun things from 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:48.200 this emails? 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.520 You have other things from the trophy hit. 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.640 One thing, one thing that comes across. Well, first of all, 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:59.320 there's a proposal to use crypto to fund open ai 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.120 because they need all this money. And and from the 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:04.560 emails you can conclude that Elon Musk does not see 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.199 that as a very viable approach, which is kind of 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.080 funny because he in public, you know, is is the 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:10.640 doge father. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:11.600 He's always talking about her. 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.199 What do you mean by use crypto to fund open as. 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:19.760 We an I c O initial Remember this created. 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.240 News if you create a news coin, create a new coin. 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.000 And Elon Musk, at least in private, very much saw 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.319 it that way as as something that we gimmicky, unserious 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.080 or whatever. And and dissuaded or attempted. 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.120 To come out that was from the Yeah, it's just. 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:36.560 Like in the back and forth, you see it, well right. 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.640 Now with all the coins worth, the zillion dollars that didn't. 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:40.800 Maybe it would have been the right move. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:41.120 Well. 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.920 The other the other thing is, you know what you 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.120 see in this in this back and forth, and I 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.440 think this is going to be like this is a 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.480 real problem, I think for both these guys, because first 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:56.440 of all, they're both making points that seem somewhat damaging 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.600 to the other, and they both kind of come off 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.520 as people who are talking a big game about the 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.120 sort of higher purposes of what they're doing, but then 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:09.880 behind the scenes are very concerned with money, which kind 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:11.480 of undercuts the sense of a higher purpose. 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:12.719 And I think it. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:17.319 Really shows a sort of political clumsiness. And it makes 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:21.040 me wonder what is going to happen when this kind 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.000 of thing happens in the Trump administration, Because you're gonna 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:24.400 have the same thing. 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.240 You're gonna have this this like collision of higher goals. 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.600 We're going to try to streamline government, we're gonna we're 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.040 gonna reach the stars or whatever, and then you're gonna 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.880 have the reality that Elon Musk is also very interested 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.840 in getting paid. He is interested in control. You know, 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.760 he's interested in the normal things that business people are 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.840 interested in. And I don't think he has that much 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:50.040 experience kind of navigating this in public, and so I 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.920 feel like this could be a preview of the awkwardness 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.240 to come over the next you know, four years potentially. 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.080 Yeah, indeed, so you see it as a bit of 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:04.040 a potentially a lose lose here for both Musk and Altman. 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.439 And anyway, it looks like the next step in this case, 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:10.839 if I'm not mistaken, is a hearing in January. And 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.400 so it'll just keep keep coming up again and again. 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.280 They did manage to squash the beef once at the 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.280 earlier this year. You know, who knows, maybe they'll be 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.000 able to work it out. And you saw Sam Altman 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.760 make some kind of positive comments about Elon Musk. 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:25.400 Elon Muskin acknowledge those comments. 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:26.640 Wasn't there's some kind of hug. 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:28.599 There was a hug, which is all part of the 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:30.920 reason why Altman is now tremendously sad about it. 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:35.199 They hugged it out and then Musk refiled the lawsuit. 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.120 So who knows maybe they'll be able to find their way, 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.319 you know, on the porty, on the patio at mar 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.360 A Lago or something and make the. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:47.000 Piece any good feud, any truly truly good feud. To 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.200 be a top feud, it's got to be capable of 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.040 overcoming a brief datime. 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.480 For me, it has to have the prospect of physical violence. 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:57.959 Well, it's true, you're raising good point that we've moved. 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.960 We've drifted pretty far from the initial goal of it all, 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:02.720 which was to get people in a cage match. 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:06.560 And now talking about speaking okay, speaking of cage match, 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.560 can we talk about how Meta filed something where they're 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.400 basically supporting Elon in his fight against Open AI. Did 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:13.840 you see that? 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:14.440 Miss this? 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:19.760 I did see that, and I think I mean, it's 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:24.000 sort of interesting because on you have Mark Zuckerberg donating 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:28.400 money to Trump. You have an actual potentially a Dayton 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.480 between Zuckerberg and Elon. You know, the original feud actually 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.160 seems to be cooling a little bit. They're both sort 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.400 of on team Trump. They seem somewhat aligned on a 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.720 number of issues, including the need to slow down the 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.080 market leader in AI with Zuckerberg of course, has a 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.600 big AI effort, and also around TikTok. Oh, actually I'm 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:49.800 wrong about that, not around TikTok because Zuckerberg wol want 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.320 to ban it and Elon has said that. 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.360 But the mind is, if we get a cage match 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.400 coming and Zuckerberg's in the ring and Muska is in 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.240 the ring, they are partner tag team partners rather then 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.280 grappling against one another. 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.040 The enemy of the enemy is my friend, so Mark, 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:06.520 and we got. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.960 Zuckerberg and Musk now on one side, we just need 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:10.640 two other people for them to wrestle. 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:12.240 I team partner for Sam Alman. 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.640 Yeah, someone preferably a little bit larger than listeners. 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.400 Elon Ink at Bloomberg dot net. Send us your ideas 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.240 and we will consider. 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:29.800 To be Sam Altman's tag team partner. Okay, We're now 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.520 joined by Lauren Grush, who covers all things space for 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:37.000 us here at Bloomberg. Hey, Lauren, Hi, guys. Okay, Lauren, 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.240 real simple question to get us started here. Tell us 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.440 who is Jared Isaacman. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:48.320 Yeah, Jared has become something of a really interesting figure 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:53.040 in both the space world and the SpaceX world. So 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.920 prior to twenty twenty one, I had no idea who 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.680 he was, and now I know him quite well, or 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.440 at least know of him quite well. He's a billionaire. 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.680 He's the founder of Shift for payments, which you might 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.440 recognize when you were swiping your credit card at various 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:14.280 restaurants or buying gifts. It's a payment liaison system. And 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.320 when he took his company public, he became a billionaire 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:23.200 and decided he wanted to invest in SpaceX, and so 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.960 he called them up and he floated the idea of actually, 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.440 you know, flying on one of their rockets one day, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.560 and then that kind of snowballed, and all of a sudden, 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.960 he had booked an entire flight for him and three 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:40.880 other people on a SpaceX Dragon and became the first 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.880 to fly the an all civilian crew to orbit. And 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.800 ever since then he's become something of a central figure 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:56.000 at SpaceX, where he kind of serves as this financial accelerator, 0:16:56.080 --> 0:17:00.480 if you will, because he funded this program called LARIS, 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:04.480 which is a research and development program where they try 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:08.879 to advance human spaceflight at SpaceX, and they flew the 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:13.120 first of those missions this year, called Polaris Dawn. And 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:15.520 you might have seen that he was the first to 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:21.359 perform a commercial spacewalk in newly designed SpaceX spacesuits. So 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:27.000 Jared's definitely become intric you know, intimately involved with SpaceX 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:28.840 in some very interesting ways. 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.440 How shocking was it for you when you saw Trump 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:36.520 pick him to lead NASA going forward? I mean from Afar, 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.760 I think the way it struck me and perhaps others is, man, 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.560 this really feels like it's got Elon's fingerprints written all 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:44.360 over at this pick. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:50.000 Oh yeah. I definitely was a little surprised. I had 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:54.240 heard his name from like an offhand source was like, 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.399 maybe him, and I was like, I don't think so. 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.840 Because of that research and development program. I was telling 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:05.280 you about the Polaris program. It actually constitutes three flights. 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.960 So the Polaris Dawn flight was just the first and 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.200 the third one is going to culminate with the first 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.320 crude flight of Starship. And from my understanding, Jared wants 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.720 to be on those flights. I mean, he hasn't said 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:18.760 I don't think they right. 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:20.600 So the head of the head of NASA is going 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.119 to be going up into space. That's kind of cool. 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.560 I mean, we can get into that. I'm he recently 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:28.560 said that Polaris might be on a bit of a 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:30.840 pause at the moment while we figure all this out. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.600 But I did wonder, you know, could the NASA administrator 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:35.479 go into space? 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:37.480 While I likely mac this is going to be a 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.680 new president. If you're going to run NASA, you got 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:40.800 to get up there yourself. 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.840 Objectively cool, I think we can all agree. 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:45.240 I don't think it's going to happen. 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:47.760 It would be even cooler if Trump himself would go 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.080 up there too, But I think it's like the next 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.679 best thing. But I feel like, you know, we've been 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.959 talking about these kind of appointments that Elon Musk has 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.160 had a hand in, and this one looks like you 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.480 and Lauren are saying out of the box, Elon Musk, 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.480 this is this is my guy. I mean I I looked, 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:07.399 and I do think you can make a pretty an 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.040 interesting case for his qualifications. Right, he's not tradition, he's 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.560 not conventionally qualified, but he does seem like he's qualified 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.960 in other ways, right as somebody who's who actually has 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.000 had experience in business, who has who knows the private industry. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:23.480 But it really does feel like a big point against 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.040 him is he's like hopelessly conflicted. I mean, he this guy, 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.280 he is pretty much an investor. Now, maybe not a 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.679 profit motivated investor, but like an investor in SpaceX. I 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.000 don't know how other companies there. It's gonna it's gonna 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:38.280 be very easy for them to argue that they're not 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:39.000 going to get a fair. 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:44.879 So Lauren has do we actually know beyond putting up 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:49.080 financing for that Polaris program, is he an equity investor 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.439 in SpaceX? And if so, do we know if he 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.600 plans to divest and get out of that position? 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.240 I asked and did not get a response. I mean, 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.960 he's definitely invested his money into these programs. Whether or 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.119 not he holds shares, I think is still an open question. 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:10.320 But presumably if he did. You know, we've had NASA 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:17.520 administrators who've held stock before in contractors that NASA employees 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.080 or you know, does business with, and they've had to 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:25.560 divest those shares. So presumably if he did have SpaceX shares, 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.359 he would divest them when it comes to the conflict 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.960 of interest. You know, that was kind of my biggest 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.119 thought when I first heard it. You know, I talked 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.639 with Lori Garver, who was the former deputy administrator for 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:42.080 NASA under Obama and She talked about how they were 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:47.480 very cognizant of trying to maintain a separation between the 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:52.119 political side versus the contracting and the procurement side of things. 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.159 She said that they went so far as to not 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:58.080 even be briefed on decisions that were, you know, being 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.160 made about contracting, just to make sure that there wasn't 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.679 even an, you know, optically a thought that they were 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:07.600 kind of putting their their finger on the scale whether 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.800