Speaker 1: But knowledge to work and grow your business with c
Speaker 1: i T. From transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i
Speaker 1: T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for
Speaker 1: small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c i
Speaker 1: T dot com put Knowledge to Work. Hello and welcome
Speaker 1: to another edition of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal,
Speaker 1: Managing editor at Bloomberg Markets, and I'm Tracy Alloway, Executive
Speaker 1: editor at Bloomberg Markets. Tracy, I'm so excited about today's episode.
Speaker 1: I probably always say that that I'm excited, but this
Speaker 1: episode is kind of on a slightly more offbeach subject,
Speaker 1: not really anything specifically to do with economics or markets,
Speaker 1: but about something about which something I'm very passionate about.
Speaker 1: And there is a business angle. And do you know
Speaker 1: what it's about. Uh, it's chess, right, that's right. Finally,
Speaker 1: we were doing an episode of Odd Lots about chess,
Speaker 1: and of course chess in the game. I mean, average
Speaker 1: chess player, you wouldn't necessarily think there is a financier
Speaker 1: markets angle, but there is in New York City a
Speaker 1: chess business. There's a place that I love. It's in
Speaker 1: the village. It's called the Chess Forum, and they sell
Speaker 1: chess books and chess boards, and you can go there
Speaker 1: and for a few dollars an hour play chess on
Speaker 1: They have all these boards set up, and so you
Speaker 1: could just go there and find a game and just
Speaker 1: play chess all night. And it's this magical place in
Speaker 1: New York City. So I remember this place. It was
Speaker 1: actually really close to my old apartment in New York
Speaker 1: and I remember walking past it and uh, I must
Speaker 1: confess I never went there because I'm not a big
Speaker 1: chess player, but it looked really, really interesting. It's one
Speaker 1: of these things that seems like kind of old New
Speaker 1: York and it's cool that it still exists. It's just
Speaker 1: like it's always two cool to exist because at a
Speaker 1: time when more and more things are like high end
Speaker 1: restaurants or banks or other stuff, it's cool that there
Speaker 1: is this piece of real estate devoted to playing chess.
Speaker 1: And today I'm really excited we have the founder of
Speaker 1: the Chess Forum and the owner, Iman hash On. He
Speaker 1: founded it in the mid nineties and he is going
Speaker 1: to be our guest today and we're going to be
Speaker 1: talking about the business of running a chess store in
Speaker 1: New York City. Fantastic. I'm really curious to see how
Speaker 1: an old school place like that manages to survive. Me too,
Speaker 1: So let's get started. Iman, thank you very much for
Speaker 1: joining us here in the studio. Thank you so uh Iman,
Speaker 1: tell us how did you tell us? How did the
Speaker 1: Chess Forum begin? How did you found this chess shop?
Speaker 1: And what is it? Many things? Whatever you want to
Speaker 1: make of it as a business, as a chess store
Speaker 1: that relies on setting chess a cool meant and other
Speaker 1: classic games bat gammon, the Japanese game of goal checkers, domino,
Speaker 1: scribble cribbic, even measuring. At the same time, I see
Speaker 1: it as partially a community service place where I believe
Speaker 1: in that kind of thing where you have to give,
Speaker 1: if not as much as you can back to the
Speaker 1: community that you live or exist in, where the local
Speaker 1: neighborhood or the bigger city itself. And you founded it?
Speaker 1: What year was it nine? Actually? And so you found
Speaker 1: were you doing before that? Before that? I was a
Speaker 1: student in a tunnel. You was doing a pH d
Speaker 1: in comparative religion. And how did you have the idea
Speaker 1: to why did you how did you come up with
Speaker 1: the idea of launching a chester it's uh, his own
Speaker 1: story actually, and if you remember, maybe you're too young
Speaker 1: for that time. There was another store on the same
Speaker 1: block and I worked there part time and developed into
Speaker 1: a manager and the partner. And as you want to mention,
Speaker 1: in the world of business, not a lot of partnerships
Speaker 1: and the happy ending is I think the only ship
Speaker 1: that doesn't float the partnership, right, believe that. So you
Speaker 1: had a split with the owner of that other chess
Speaker 1: shop just one day. It was one of those deals
Speaker 1: I was at the time when I entered the partnership
Speaker 1: in my little wenties and one on trust. Wait wait, wait,
Speaker 1: I remember reading a little bit about this at the time.
Speaker 1: There were news articles saying that there was this massive
Speaker 1: chess feud basically in the village between the two chess shops. Right,
Speaker 1: that's that's civil war that split Thompson Street, Right, And
Speaker 1: does the other one still exist? It doesn't exist, if
Speaker 1: it's so when I'm not sure? So talk to us
Speaker 1: about running the business. Um, you sell books, you sell
Speaker 1: boards of different games, as you said, and you also
Speaker 1: rent out tables essentially for people to come and play chess.
Speaker 1: So how does the business work. It's the same old
Speaker 1: model of a store that one side of it is
Speaker 1: a business relies on selling equipment, and the other side
Speaker 1: is sort of a cafe if you want, or we
Speaker 1: offer soft drinks and tables for people to play chess
Speaker 1: or any other game, the old classic games that they
Speaker 1: might like, especially back come on. And so you've been
Speaker 1: doing it for over You've been doing it, I guess
Speaker 1: over twenty years now, Um, what trends have you seen?
Speaker 1: Is chess remain popular? Was there a time when it
Speaker 1: was more popular than now? Do people come in at
Speaker 1: the same levels? That part this game has two aspects
Speaker 1: to it. There's a functional practical aspect, and there is
Speaker 1: a esthetic aspect. The functional aspect is practically wiped out
Speaker 1: by the Internet. Almost everybody plays online or in the
Speaker 1: beginning to a software. Right now it's just directly playing.
Speaker 1: The engines are directly online or they come with your
Speaker 1: own phone or on computer, so that part has weakened drastically.
Speaker 1: That trend is that mostly we see senior citizens two
Speaker 1: groups that are too late or too early for technology,
Speaker 1: either senior citizens in their nineties or children four or
Speaker 1: five years old. These are sort of the loyal clientele.
Speaker 1: Anywhere in between is practically going to one. You see
Speaker 1: it online and you see the industries staring at their
Speaker 1: phones or tableits at night. It's more popular with couples,
Speaker 1: So now we have not like sort of dating scene.
Speaker 1: People go on dating. It sounds like a nice data
Speaker 1: that's nice. I like that. That's a good data idea.
Speaker 1: So what's the split in revenue like between sales of
Speaker 1: actual chest related items and the payments you receive for
Speaker 1: letting people play chess in the store and for selling
Speaker 1: drinks and that sort of thing. It's really I don't
Speaker 1: know if there will be a split. As I said
Speaker 1: that playing part is more of a service than it's
Speaker 1: a business. So the business is really all the selling stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, which are senior citizens one hour? Children play
Speaker 1: free all the time. They whoever plays with them, their family.
Speaker 1: They don't pay if there's a child playing. That area
Speaker 1: of Manhattan is really sort of mecca for chess because
Speaker 1: in addition to the old chess shop that you put
Speaker 1: out of business, it's right near Washington Square Park, which
Speaker 1: has a pretty thriving chess community there right. Yes, it's
Speaker 1: most real taste around the park and Dinion Square as
Speaker 1: a four our scene who are have you what kind
Speaker 1: of a big name chess players have you had come
Speaker 1: in and played chess on the forum. We had that
Speaker 1: I forget his name, but less name Leco Hungarian Grandmaster
Speaker 1: Peter Luck the Teleco. Yeah, at the moment, I don't
Speaker 1: know it counts, but oh, Carowana, he's like the hottest
Speaker 1: thing right now. He's he's American, right, he's Italian born
Speaker 1: in America, Italian born in America. And he's even playing
Speaker 1: better than Magnus Carlson. I think he's a future of chess. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he started that chess for him, He started a
Speaker 1: chess for Has he come back since he's become famous?
Speaker 1: Who haven't seen him since? I think he just moved
Speaker 1: back to the US, like a few almost a few
Speaker 1: months ago. He started at four. I remember his father
Speaker 1: came and asked for a chess teacher. So it's like
Speaker 1: a classic Bobby Fisher style story of us some young
Speaker 1: some young prodigy looking at parents looking for a teacher
Speaker 1: at that time. You don't know that's what any parent
Speaker 1: would think. What you offer your kids? So opportunities offer?
Speaker 1: Do you see that? A lot of parents imagining their
Speaker 1: children shows an interested chess and these parents sort of
Speaker 1: fantasized that their kids are going to be the next
Speaker 1: Bobby Sure, and they're convinced that their child is a prodigy.
Speaker 1: That's a constant thing, not always happy thing, right, I
Speaker 1: imagine that. Wait, so the reason that children get to
Speaker 1: play for free at the Chess Forum is because you're trying,
Speaker 1: presumably to nurture a whole another generation of chess fans
Speaker 1: and future customers. Right Exactly when I started, I realized
Speaker 1: as a business, even in say they it's a very
Speaker 1: small business. It's really negregible. If you want to talk
Speaker 1: about economy and numbers, there's nothing there. There is no product.
Speaker 1: At the same time, there's no clientele. So you had
Speaker 1: to work on both. I had to widen my selection
Speaker 1: just to widen that peel. At the same time, I
Speaker 1: had to find to create the customer. Thinking that almost
Speaker 1: I would I would say, like an agricultural way of
Speaker 1: thinking that that commercial way of thinking, like you plant
Speaker 1: a tree and you eat the fruit maybe two years later.
Speaker 1: I like. I like that. That's was my reason. Thing
Speaker 1: is that we need, almost like they used to do
Speaker 1: in Russia, to spread the game amongst the population, hoping
Speaker 1: for two things. Expand the market, and second, maybe out
Speaker 1: of that population, the issue becomes higher of creating a
Speaker 1: world champion or if not a larger number of grand masters.
Speaker 1: Before you got into the chess business, what did you
Speaker 1: think you were going to do? What did you study for?
Speaker 1: What did you do? All? Right? It was may becoming
Speaker 1: a professor, university teacher of some sort. That was the
Speaker 1: plan that took my family a lot of time to
Speaker 1: accept the idea of becoming what this was a shopkeeper?
Speaker 1: And do you get to play much? But that often?
Speaker 1: I would love to play more, but I've noticed, first
Speaker 1: of I have, like maybe myself, addictive personality. So I
Speaker 1: try to meet and just as you know as a player,
Speaker 1: you know yourself that if you sit to play, you
Speaker 1: don't want to do anything else. And I have a
Speaker 1: room full of people like that, very smart, very intelligent,
Speaker 1: very funny, well educated, but they don't want to do
Speaker 1: anything else. Practically, the game takes over your life. Is
Speaker 1: really the closest thing to being about who drinks his
Speaker 1: own alcohol? Right? Have you seen people's lives get ruined
Speaker 1: by chess? I've seen quite a few, sadly, in a
Speaker 1: very unfortunate, very sad way, marriages destroyed, feminis broken up,
Speaker 1: drops and careers lost just by the magic or the
Speaker 1: cares or the power of the chessboard. It has its
Speaker 1: own drop. Incredible and that Now let's take a very
Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor, but knowledge
Speaker 1: to work and grow your business with c I T.
Speaker 1: From transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i T offers
Speaker 1: commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for small and
Speaker 1: middle market businesses. Learn more at c I T dot com.
Speaker 1: Put Knowledge to Work. And we're back with Iman Kashan,
Speaker 1: the founder and owner of the Chess Forum, this wonderful
Speaker 1: chess shop in the village in Manhattan. And right before
Speaker 1: the break, you were talking about how you've seen chess
Speaker 1: and the magic and the power of the chessboard. People
Speaker 1: get so engrossed in it that it ruins their lives,
Speaker 1: that ruins their families. What is it about chess? After
Speaker 1: all these years, computers have long surpassed human ability in
Speaker 1: terms of ability to um you know, or computers are
Speaker 1: clearly better than us. Now that's still gravitate. People are
Speaker 1: still gravitated to it. Why do you think this game
Speaker 1: in particular just draws people in. I think the best
Speaker 1: way to express it is that story of the man
Speaker 1: or the farmer who did the kana service and the
Speaker 1: king for them any price that he wants. So we
Speaker 1: humbly said, I'll just take a coin, or some people
Speaker 1: say one piece of wheat and put it on the
Speaker 1: square of a chessboard, and as we move square to square,
Speaker 1: just double that number. So it goes to say, by
Speaker 1: the end the on practically half the kingdom. So this
Speaker 1: just the idea is that the possibilities no two games
Speaker 1: are the same. That's why it's difficult to memorize games,
Speaker 1: right because even grand master play, like even with these
Speaker 1: openings that have been studied to death, often by say
Speaker 1: move twelve or thirteen, they're in completely uncharted territory that
Speaker 1: I've never been seen before. Right, yes, so again, like
Speaker 1: you start and you don't know where I like in
Speaker 1: it similarity to life, there is no guessing where your
Speaker 1: day will take you, no guessing where your move will lead.
Speaker 1: That's I think sometimes why they like heavy pieces just
Speaker 1: to give a weight. What I like to teach the
Speaker 1: younger players or the kids, is that this game is
Speaker 1: a game of life, and that's sense of consequences. Don't
Speaker 1: make a move lightly when it depends the course of
Speaker 1: a game, a difference between a win, a lose, or
Speaker 1: a draw. So you both are waxing lyrical about the
Speaker 1: the allure of chess, especially played against a physical opponent
Speaker 1: who's actually there in the room with you. Why are
Speaker 1: people um playing so much chess online? It seems like
Speaker 1: it would lose a little bit of the romance and
Speaker 1: the fun of actually playing in real life. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe it's an understatement to say a little bit lose
Speaker 1: the romance, toy gun. It's as much as over romance
Speaker 1: as maybe dating a computer screen. I noticed when people
Speaker 1: come to us first of all, why it's because it's convenient.
Speaker 1: There is no more like anything ordering food or going
Speaker 1: to the restaurant to shop or to the supermarket, and
Speaker 1: it's coming to your house. You gain time, you save money,
Speaker 1: and you have whole world. Now, I mean, that's what
Speaker 1: technology did. What used to involve you a trip all
Speaker 1: the way from Jersey or Queen's to chess for him.
Speaker 1: Now it's just in the palm of your hand. You
Speaker 1: have the player, you have the pieces, the board and
Speaker 1: the clock and you can't even trash talk now. Uh
Speaker 1: so let's talk go back you know, I like playing
Speaker 1: at the chess for him. I also like playing at
Speaker 1: Washington Square Park, and people play for money often. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't want you to have to admit if there's
Speaker 1: gambling ever going on in your establishment. But do you
Speaker 1: think that you know that adds to the thrill of it,
Speaker 1: the idea that there might be five or ten dollars
Speaker 1: on the line in a game, or do you think
Speaker 1: that takes away from the game. It depends how you
Speaker 1: look at it. If some people are playing the five
Speaker 1: for the thrill, I think it would be fun. But
Speaker 1: the unfun part that sometimes you have to come across
Speaker 1: is those who do that to make a living. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's a much more desperate game, right, difference between
Speaker 1: as somebody in the park, A player Rocky One from
Speaker 1: in thirty Dollars he said this, this is really my
Speaker 1: food money. Yeah, so it's a big So that's when
Speaker 1: there's a chance of a clash, even physical, because you're
Speaker 1: fighting for your lifelihood. Do you prohibit people playing for
Speaker 1: money in the chess forum? Yeah, this is I mean,
Speaker 1: it's really I have to say it's it's been like
Speaker 1: everything is good and best size. It's very quiet and
Speaker 1: calm and peaceful, but it's much less of a crowd.
Speaker 1: If you want, you could fill a whole auditorium with gamblers,
Speaker 1: but then basically have to have nine on one on
Speaker 1: speed dial. So on the business side, I imagine you've
Speaker 1: seen the rent go up quite a bit. I mean
Speaker 1: you're in a very trendy part of Manhattan. Has that
Speaker 1: been difficult? It's been, Like I think what's been a
Speaker 1: little bit more difficult than rent is a new thing
Speaker 1: that's been introduced a few years ago. Real estate tax.
Speaker 1: That's something that's it's almost practically like another rent. Huh
Speaker 1: that when I first took the place, there was no
Speaker 1: such thing, something very minimal. Now you practically pay a
Speaker 1: large chunk of the real estate text and that's really
Speaker 1: a big burden. That makes life for making in Smith
Speaker 1: a little bit or not a little bit, much more difficult.
Speaker 1: Have you been able to increase prices on boards and
Speaker 1: books to match increasing costs to begin? I really like
Speaker 1: almost a lot of things are the same price like.
Speaker 1: So you're really under pressure on two fronts, right, because
Speaker 1: not only are you getting digital pressure from the internet
Speaker 1: from people playing chess online, but you must also be
Speaker 1: under pressure from sites like Amazon in terms of selling
Speaker 1: chess books and equipment, and that definitely that's in terms
Speaker 1: of play and now I think there are hundreds of
Speaker 1: thousands of sites who sell that particular and maybe everything else.
Speaker 1: I've seen even a site where the man sells just
Speaker 1: boards and the wife sells underwear for women that I saw.
Speaker 1: That What a world. It's a natural pairing, obviously exactly
Speaker 1: one after their interest. But yeah, I know it's everyone
Speaker 1: in this. In a way, there's an element of democraticization
Speaker 1: or equalization that everybody has a chance to do anything
Speaker 1: they want. But I find it too clearly the romans
Speaker 1: of life in general. Will the Will the Chess Forum
Speaker 1: be here in ten years? That's the hope. Really, Like
Speaker 1: I mean, this is would be an amazing achievement if
Speaker 1: we're able to do it, just I did. I would
Speaker 1: I say, like I like, if we ever have to leave,
Speaker 1: I would like to say for another hundred years, I
Speaker 1: cannot see a city like New York with at a
Speaker 1: place like this. I agree to me. It's one of
Speaker 1: the quintessential New York establishment. And as I was saying
Speaker 1: in the in the beginning, it's almost too good to
Speaker 1: exist because it's so cool, and I think New York
Speaker 1: would be worse without it. Before we wrap up, do
Speaker 1: you have any sort of highlight of your time running
Speaker 1: the Chess Forum that was sort of to you one
Speaker 1: of the You know, it doesn't sound like it's been
Speaker 1: extraordinarily financially rewarding, but was there a great story that
Speaker 1: you tells you like why it's been so worth it
Speaker 1: to keep it going? I mean besides uh Fabiano story,
Speaker 1: but every every day by itself for me that as
Speaker 1: I said, like, my example of business isn't something you
Speaker 1: teach in business school. What I do isn't the fact
Speaker 1: that I tried to run a business on goodwill that
Speaker 1: if you give, don't be afraid it will come back somehow.
Speaker 1: The fact that we are open to me is American
Speaker 1: and has it come back. It's the fact that we're
Speaker 1: open is the proof that it comes back. I mean,
Speaker 1: you look at numbers, they don't make sense, but how
Speaker 1: is it open if anybody believes that? That's why I say,
Speaker 1: you kind of teach it in business school, but faith
Speaker 1: or hope that do that. I think look out for
Speaker 1: people and people will look out for you somehow. I mean,
Speaker 1: it would be nice if there's a system that this
Speaker 1: is more of a cultural institution at the stage, not
Speaker 1: a business. Well, and that's such a refreshing thing to
Speaker 1: hear because obviously we talked about finance all day and
Speaker 1: nobody says anything like that. So it was an absolute
Speaker 1: pleasure talking to you and learning about your business. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the final thing we're seeing sitting behind in the
Speaker 1: store and seeing people, business people, children, all kinds of
Speaker 1: tourists who are amazed that from Europe, who play mayor chess,
Speaker 1: but are amazed that exists in New York. I feel
Speaker 1: that New York has the hype and delivers. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: one thing special by the people looking slowly through the
Speaker 1: windows at the sets with that innocent, pure smile. There's
Speaker 1: no money in it, there's no interest, there's no anything gained.
Speaker 1: Back and forth, just for a second or two, you
Speaker 1: put a smile on somebody's face before they go back
Speaker 1: to their real life. At think this is my best
Speaker 1: word every day. Well, thank you very much for joining us,
Speaker 1: and obviously to anyone who's listening to the Odd podcast,
Speaker 1: if you're in New York or visiting New York, I
Speaker 1: highly endorsed checking out the Chess Forum it's on Thompson Street.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Well, Tracy, I love chess obviously,
Speaker 1: but what did you think about it? Because I thought
Speaker 1: that was great, But I'm curious to get your perspective.
Speaker 1: So all right, I admit I'm frustrated with chess, mostly
Speaker 1: because whenever I try to play it with my husband,
Speaker 1: he tries fools mate on me, and like I fall
Speaker 1: for I'm a terrible, terrible chess player. But after listening
Speaker 1: to that, I feel kind of bad. I feel like
Speaker 1: when I was in New York, I probably should have
Speaker 1: gone to the Chess Forum at least a couple of
Speaker 1: times and tried to hone my game a little bit more.
Speaker 1: You really have no excuse for getting by fools made now.
Speaker 1: I hate to say that. Well. I was going to
Speaker 1: say we should play online sometime, but after that discussion,
Speaker 1: I don't think we should. I love that discussion. I
Speaker 1: thought that he captured the appeal of chess and the
Speaker 1: appeal of running a place like the Chess Forum perfectly.
Speaker 1: And while I still live in New York and I'm
Speaker 1: not planning on moving anytime soon, I'm now going to
Speaker 1: make it a commitment to go there more often. You know,
Speaker 1: what I found really interesting was just the discussion about
Speaker 1: all the pressures brought to bear by the Internet and
Speaker 1: everything kind of moving online. Because obviously in business and
Speaker 1: markets we talk a lot about big companies like Amazon,
Speaker 1: new up starts like Airbnb, and all the pressures they
Speaker 1: brought to bear on traditional players, and I think sometimes
Speaker 1: we forget that traditional brick and mortar stores like the
Speaker 1: Chess Forum are providing a service for these big guys, right,
Speaker 1: that's talking about nurturing a new generation of chess players.
Speaker 1: Like what he said, Like the ability, to say, for
Speaker 1: a tourist or a family to be able to walk
Speaker 1: down the street and have their children look into a
Speaker 1: shop window and see a chess set is a legit
Speaker 1: positive public good. I mean, even if you don't buy anything,
Speaker 1: it's cool to like window shop, and so to think
Speaker 1: about all the places that offer that, to think about
Speaker 1: them all potentially going away strikes me as a genuine
Speaker 1: loss of a good good, even if from a strictly
Speaker 1: commercial stance you can get a better or more efficient
Speaker 1: deal online. Yeah, I think that's right, all right, Tracy, Well,
Speaker 1: it was great chatting with you, and thank you to
Speaker 1: everyone for listening to Odd lots. I'm Joe Wisn't All.
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwarts, and
Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Halloway. I'm on Twitter at Tracy Halloway. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening. Put knowledge to work and grow your business
Speaker 1: with c i T. From transportation to healthcare to manufacturing.
Speaker 1: C i T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management
Speaker 1: services for small and middle market businesses. Learn more at
Speaker 1: c i T dot com. Put Knowledge to Work