Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, it's Paul muldoon. Before we get to this episode,
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Speaker 2: Had you come home late at night on December eighth,
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty and turned on your television, you would have
Speaker 2: had some generation shaking news.
Speaker 3: He was shot late this evening in front of his
Speaker 3: apartment building in New York City. Apparently he was killed
Speaker 3: almost immediately. The man who shot John Lennon walked up
Speaker 3: to the musician as he was leaving his limousine. According
Speaker 3: to eyewitnesses, he said, mister Lennon, and then fired at
Speaker 3: him point blank at least five times.
Speaker 4: And if I said I really knew you, well, what would.
Speaker 5: Your answer me.
Speaker 6: This is.
Speaker 1: Basically a memory song that is a love song to John.
Speaker 7: Well knowing you, he probably laugh and says that we
Speaker 7: were world's apart.
Speaker 1: He's written after he died, and I was remembering things
Speaker 1: about our relationship and things about the million things we've
Speaker 1: done together.
Speaker 8: But as for me, I still remember it was funning.
Speaker 9: Magulty from just being in each other's front parlors or bedrooms,
Speaker 9: or walking on the street together or hitchhiking.
Speaker 2: I'm Paul, will do and I've been fortunate to spend
Speaker 2: time with one of the greatest songwriters of our era.
Speaker 1: And will you look at me? I'm going on to it.
Speaker 2: I'm actually a performer, that is, sir Paul McCartney. We
Speaker 2: work together on a book looking at the lyrics of
Speaker 2: more than one hundred and fifty of his songs, and
Speaker 2: we recorded many hours of our conversations.
Speaker 1: Oh, actually I'm a songwriter. My god, Well, that crypto homie.
Speaker 2: This is Cartney, A life in lyrics, a masterclass, a memoir,
Speaker 2: and an improvised journey with one of the most iconic
Speaker 2: figures in popular music in this episode here today. John
Speaker 2: Lennon died on December eighth, nineteen eighty. It was a
Speaker 2: loss grieved by millions of people around the world. As
Speaker 2: Paul McCartney mourned in the following years, he found himself
Speaker 2: remembering all of the time they had spent together as
Speaker 2: childhood friends. Bandmates and creative collaborators.
Speaker 1: And I was in what is now my recording studio
Speaker 1: in Sussex. It was is little house. There was little
Speaker 1: room upstairs that was bare wooden planks and bare walls,
Speaker 1: and I had my guitar with me. So I just
Speaker 1: sat there and wrote this. And it's started as also
Speaker 1: do with me. We're finding something nice on the guitar,
Speaker 1: a good chord or something just that. If I said,
Speaker 1: but that it's just such a lovely chorde, it's not.
Speaker 1: He was going, I don't know what it is actually,
Speaker 1: And if.
Speaker 4: I said I really knew you, well, what would you
Speaker 4: answer me?
Speaker 1: If you read?
Speaker 10: One of the things which I find very interesting is
Speaker 10: that the title is here today, but you never get
Speaker 10: round to letting the others shoe drop as it were
Speaker 10: on that when you don't refer to so far as
Speaker 10: I can see.
Speaker 1: I gone tomorrow. Mmm, No, which I think is good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think. Do you know when I thought of here today,
Speaker 1: I would have thought of it I was here today,
Speaker 1: gone tomorrow, but I immediately just dropped, Yes, gone tomorrow. I knew,
Speaker 1: I knew I didn't want that, And a bit I
Speaker 1: wanted was this front pit?
Speaker 5: What about the time we made About the time, well,
Speaker 5: I suppose that you could say that we were playing
Speaker 5: not again.
Speaker 1: What about the time we met, Well, the first time
Speaker 1: I ever saw John Lennon, he got on the bus
Speaker 1: and is John always managed to be a little bit
Speaker 1: older than me. I never caught up. So he was
Speaker 1: like this sort of slightly older guy with a sort
Speaker 1: of rock herd, lots of grease, black jacket, side burns,
Speaker 1: sideboards as we called or burns was American, And you know,
Speaker 1: I just remember thinking, well, he's a cool guy, no
Speaker 1: idea who he is.
Speaker 5: Didn't understand the thing, but we could all say.
Speaker 1: And what would happen is when I would talk to people,
Speaker 1: they'd sort of say, what are your hobbies? What do
Speaker 1: you like to do? And inevitably I'd say, and I've
Speaker 1: written a couple of songs, and they got and we'd
Speaker 1: pass that by and we'd carry on a conversation. When
Speaker 1: I met John, were just chapping what do you do,
Speaker 1: I've written a couple of songs, he said, it was
Speaker 1: so vi So that was like a full stop. So
Speaker 1: then it was like, let me hear what you've done,
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you. I'll show your life to him
Speaker 1: so that started us getting together. I think I was
Speaker 1: possibly the first person he'd met who said that to him.
Speaker 6: So that was the start.
Speaker 1: Of our relationship. We decided to get together normally at
Speaker 1: my house and my dad always left his pipe in
Speaker 1: the drawer, so we would take tea, fill the pipe
Speaker 1: with it and smoke it. Oh yeah, that was before
Speaker 1: tea became teat exactly pre tea. If you did.
Speaker 11: It normally, one or the other of us would have
Speaker 11: a fragment.
Speaker 1: Sure not have a segy cup of tea, start playing
Speaker 1: some stuff, look for an idea, nearly all of it.
Speaker 1: There's two guitars, and joy of that was that I
Speaker 1: was left handed, he was right handed. So I was
Speaker 1: looking in a mirror and he was looking in a mirror.
Speaker 2: Just as their guitars mirrored each other, their personalities seemed
Speaker 2: complimentary yin and yang. Jeff Emeriic, the head studio engineer
Speaker 2: on several Beatles albums, observed that Paul was meticulous and organized.
Speaker 2: John seemed to live in chaos. Paul was a natural communicator,
Speaker 2: John couldn't articulate his idea as well. Paul was the diplomat,
Speaker 2: John was the agitator.
Speaker 1: That was one of the good things about writing with John.
Speaker 1: He would often come in from another angle. So if
Speaker 1: I'm doing a song, it's getting better all the time,
Speaker 1: John might easily say it couldn't get no worse, which
Speaker 1: immediately opens the song right up. Okay, And that was
Speaker 1: one of the things I loved about working with him.
Speaker 1: He could have said, it's getting better the time, Yes, indeed,
Speaker 1: it is right if you did.
Speaker 2: He the lyrics of here today, imagine what Lennon might
Speaker 2: say to McCartney if he were still alive. It's a
Speaker 2: practice which informed much of Baughn McCartney's songwriting since the
Speaker 2: two ended their musical collaboration. In the song, McCartney reckons
Speaker 2: with the fact that since Lennon's passing, he has had
Speaker 2: to spar with himself internalizing Lennon's creative opposition.
Speaker 6: Now I'm conscious that I don't have him very much,
Speaker 6: and you know, often we'll sort of refer, Ja, this
Speaker 6: is too soppy, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would have said no, no, no, So I'll
Speaker 1: change it. But my songs to reflect me, and you
Speaker 1: don't have this opposing element so much. I have to
Speaker 1: do that myself these days, you know. And you know,
Speaker 1: if anyone sort of asked me what was he like
Speaker 1: to work with John? The fact was it was easier,
Speaker 1: much easier, because there were two minds at work, and
Speaker 1: that interplay was nothing short of miraculous.
Speaker 2: While John Lennon's cynicism was often helpful in the songwriting
Speaker 2: process with Paul McCartney, he could be quite harsh. He
Speaker 2: had a very traumatic childhood, a distant father, there was
Speaker 2: the early loss of his mother, and his aunt's frequent
Speaker 2: criticism and cruelty.
Speaker 1: John's persona was very guarded. Yeah, hopelessly guarded. You know.
Speaker 1: That was where all this wit came from. It was
Speaker 1: like so many comedians, it's to shield themselves against the world,
Speaker 1: you know. And John having had this very difficult upbringing
Speaker 1: where his father leaves arm and then his uncle dies
Speaker 1: and then his mother gets killed. By the time I
Speaker 1: knew him, he could be very sarcastic, but we all could.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was my way of dealing
Speaker 1: with my mother's death and his too. So he would
Speaker 1: often they made a funny you know, they would not
Speaker 1: from being a very witty put down. Wouldn't always be
Speaker 1: a put down, but it's always a quick answer, and
Speaker 1: he trained himself to do that it was kind of obviously,
Speaker 1: and that was one of the attractive things.
Speaker 10: About him self, protective attack before we were attacked, dud.
Speaker 7: Well, knowing you, you probably laugh and say that we
Speaker 7: were worlds abroad.
Speaker 1: If you today. I played to the sort of more
Speaker 1: cynical side of John. There was certainly that, But whenever
Speaker 1: I sing this, I do think it's probably not true.
Speaker 1: You probably laugh and say we're a world's apart.
Speaker 2: This cynicism may seem particular to John Lennon, but it
Speaker 2: was drilled into all young men of their generation as
Speaker 2: part of some ideal of stoic masculinity.
Speaker 1: Why can't men say I love you to each other?
Speaker 1: I don't think it's quite as true now, but I
Speaker 1: think certainly when we were growing up, you had to
Speaker 1: be gay for a man to say that to another man,
Speaker 1: So you know that bred a little bit of cynicism.
Speaker 1: If you ever were talking about anything soppy, then the
Speaker 1: next thing would be someone would have to make a
Speaker 1: joke of it, just to ease the embarrassment in the room.
Speaker 1: I love.
Speaker 2: And as boys couldn't admit their love for their friends,
Speaker 2: they were also encouraged to hold back their tears.
Speaker 12: Boys don't cry.
Speaker 1: My dad wasn't like that, but that was the attitude
Speaker 1: that you don't cry. Male people do not cry, whereas
Speaker 1: I think now it's acknowledged that it's a perfectly good
Speaker 1: thing to do. And I say, well, you know, if
Speaker 1: God wouldn't have given us tears, if he didn't mean
Speaker 1: us to.
Speaker 5: Cry, what'd we cried? Because there was any reason? I
Speaker 5: have to keep it on inside?
Speaker 7: Nevers the world would you.
Speaker 1: Were the smart.
Speaker 2: Even before the Beatles, Paul and John spent so much
Speaker 2: time together that if they didn't acknowledge it in words,
Speaker 2: their friendship had deepened, they grew closer and they came
Speaker 2: to really know one another.
Speaker 1: John and I hitchhiked a lot. It was the kind
Speaker 1: of way to get a holiday. You never you didn't
Speaker 1: book holidays. Maybe your parents did that. We I don't
Speaker 1: think we would have known how to, so you would
Speaker 1: do as you just head out. We'd always take our
Speaker 1: guitars and it was always just two of us. And
Speaker 1: from Liverpool you go south. You don't really think of
Speaker 1: hitchhiking north the beaches of South and John and I
Speaker 1: got down to ride on the Isle of Wight Ryd.
Speaker 4: She's done a ticket, she's not a ticket.
Speaker 1: Were my cousin Betty Elizabeth and her husband Mike were
Speaker 1: running a pub. They did that, They ran pubs.
Speaker 2: Not only did McCartney's cousins Betty and Mike run a pub.
Speaker 2: Mike was also an entertainment manager at Butland's. Butland's was
Speaker 2: a chain of seaside resorts started by Billy Butlin in
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty seven.
Speaker 12: Butlin's the big holiday where everyone enjoys everything at no
Speaker 12: extra cost, like a monorail.
Speaker 2: As this ad makes clear, the point was to provide
Speaker 2: affordable holidays for working class families.
Speaker 12: Holiday for everyone with everything to enjoy at Butlers and
Speaker 12: remember no extra at the Bay.
Speaker 1: They were very showers and their kids all are great
Speaker 1: little family. We went down there and it was great
Speaker 1: really because I was sort of showing John part of
Speaker 1: my world. It was very cute because because we were
Speaker 1: got of young guys and then still teen teenagers, we'd
Speaker 1: play our guitars. They'd love to hear us play. He
Speaker 1: was He was a very funny guy and musical. He'd
Speaker 1: been in a sort of an a cappella singing group
Speaker 1: with zoot suits called the Jones Boys, and we listened
Speaker 1: to them on the radio once once on the radio,
Speaker 1: and we all whole family tuned in. You know, Guy
Speaker 1: collected clippings of them. It was very cute to now
Speaker 1: think of me and John in a bed top and tail,
Speaker 1: a little single bed top and tail, and Betty and
Speaker 1: Mike coming in to talk us in. It was so sweet.
Speaker 1: You know, that's so sort of innocent, playing again, lingo ringo. Stop,
Speaker 1: that's not me.
Speaker 2: What do you promise to be and help me?
Speaker 3: J okay.
Speaker 2: Even when John would attack Paul, he find ways of
Speaker 2: signaling to his friend, the softer part of himself that
Speaker 2: lay underneath the hard shell.
Speaker 1: I told you you were the glasses all the time.
Speaker 1: And we have we have an argument about no because
Speaker 1: I would have to stand up to him because we're
Speaker 1: working together and he say something but particularly caustic. I'd
Speaker 1: be sort of wounded. And then he pulled down his classes.
Speaker 1: He it's only me, and that was John. That to me,
Speaker 1: it was John, It's only me, Oh all right, and
Speaker 1: you've just gone and blustered and that was somebody else?
Speaker 1: Was it? Okay? And that was your shield talking. I'm
Speaker 1: giving up the business on any George has tuned up,
Speaker 1: tuning up, I won't do thie.
Speaker 2: As Paul came to recognize when John's shield was up,
Speaker 2: and when it was done, he learned how to comfort him.
Speaker 1: I remember him saying to me, oh, you know, I
Speaker 1: worry about how people are going to remember me when
Speaker 1: I die. And it kind of shocked. I said, Okay,
Speaker 1: hold on, just hold it right there. People are going
Speaker 1: to think you were great. You've already done enough work
Speaker 1: to demonstrate that. So I was like I had to.
Speaker 1: I was like his priest often, you know, I'd have
Speaker 1: to say, my son, you're great, don't worry about it,
Speaker 1: you know whatever, and he would take it. You make
Speaker 1: him feel better.
Speaker 5: What about the night we cried because there wasn't any
Speaker 5: reason to keep it.
Speaker 7: On inside nevers to work?
Speaker 1: Would you all.
Speaker 2: This smart one stormy night in Key West while the
Speaker 2: Beatles were on tour shield dropped all together?
Speaker 1: Or about the night we cry that was a specific
Speaker 1: incident in Key West. There was a hurricane coming in
Speaker 1: and we had to lay low for a couple of days,
Speaker 1: and for some reason they chose Key West and so
Speaker 1: we were in a little sort of motel room and stuff.
Speaker 1: So we got very drunk and cried about you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know about how we loved each other or
Speaker 1: something I don't know.
Speaker 2: Writing here today, processing his friend's death, McCartney experienced a
Speaker 2: similar emotional release. Once again, it was music that broke
Speaker 2: down the barriers of masculinity, of violence, of the tragedy
Speaker 2: of John's absence.
Speaker 7: But as for me, I still remain it was before.
Speaker 1: But as for me, I still remember how it was before,
Speaker 1: and I'm holding back the tears no more because it
Speaker 1: was very moving, a very emotional writing this song, because
Speaker 1: I was just sitting there in this bare room thinking
Speaker 1: of John and realizing I lost him, and it was
Speaker 1: a powerful loss. So to have a conversation with him
Speaker 1: in a song was some form of solace. Somehow I
Speaker 1: was with him again.
Speaker 5: What about the night we cry? Because there was a
Speaker 5: really reason we have to keep it on.
Speaker 1: This And people come to my shows and this is
Speaker 1: I do this, just me and a guitar, and I'm
Speaker 1: all stuck in the middle of a great, big arena
Speaker 1: with all these people, and people tell me they look around,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people crying, And I think you know,
Speaker 1: because it is a very sentimental, nostalgic, emotional song.
Speaker 2: For you were in song here Today from Talk of War,
Speaker 2: released in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 5: When You young and your Heart.
Speaker 1: Was an open book.
Speaker 2: In the next episode, you.
Speaker 7: Used to say Little Lately.
Speaker 2: McCartney's secret aspiration to write a Bond song.
Speaker 8: They even changing world in which we're living makes you beaving.
Speaker 1: And Crown
Speaker 2: McCartney A Life in Lyrics is a coproduct between iHeartMedia,
Speaker 2: NPL and Pushkin Industries.