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Speaker 1: We have good news. Ruthie's Table four is launching on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: where you'll find full episodes, clips, and some of my

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Speaker 1: favorite moments from the series. Guests like Kate Blanchett, Francis

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Speaker 1: Ford Coppola, Sienna Miller, Zoe Saldana, and many many more.

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Speaker 1: To watch, go to YouTube dot com slash hat symbol

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Speaker 1: Ruthie's Table four pod. I can't wait to see you there.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership with Montclair.

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Speaker 1: Across the garden from where Surgeon General Viveq Mufe and

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Speaker 1: I are sitting, people are having Sunday lunch in the

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Speaker 1: River Cafe. Walking into the room, you hear the rise

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Speaker 1: and fall of conversation and laughter, friends and families connecting

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Speaker 1: over food. At age thirty seven, Viveq was appointed as

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Speaker 1: the youngest Surgeon General of the United States by President

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Speaker 1: Obama and is now serving a second term with President Biden.

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Speaker 1: During COVID. In his gap between terms as Surgeon General,

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Speaker 1: he might have researched illnesses, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, but

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Speaker 1: instead he chose what he saw as another epidemic of

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Speaker 1: our time, loneliness. His book Together The healing power of

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Speaker 1: human connection in a sometimes lonely world. Tackles loneliness as

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Speaker 1: a condition seriously detrimental to the health of millions of people.

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Speaker 1: He is a surgeon General who sees love as a

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Speaker 1: foundation of policy making. How rare to hear the word

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Speaker 1: love as a solution to a diagnosis. He says food

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Speaker 1: is an antidote to loneliness, believing loneliness is like hunger

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Speaker 1: and like thirst. I am privileged to day to talk

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Speaker 1: with and listened to the Surgeon General and to hear

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Speaker 1: how as a doctor, a father, a husband, a child,

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Speaker 1: and now my friend, food is a connection and food

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Speaker 1: is love. Yeah, I mean it is also why you're here,

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Speaker 1: isn't it how you doing a conference? So it is

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Speaker 1: a global concern now.

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Speaker 2: And it's actually why I find that this work around

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Speaker 2: food to be so powerful, because I think that you know,

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Speaker 2: people like you, Ruthie, who have been so deeply immersed

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Speaker 2: in not just the preparation of food, but food is

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Speaker 2: a cultural force. I think have long recognized that food

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Speaker 2: has a power to bring us together, to put us

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Speaker 2: in a place of ease where we can be more

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Speaker 2: open and talk to one another, Which is why I

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Speaker 2: think people like breaking bread with one another, and conversation

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Speaker 2: happens differently over food than it does in a conference room.

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Speaker 2: But I think that food is also at its best,

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Speaker 2: you know, a force for love. And I feel that fundamentally,

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Speaker 2: the question that's before us in society, not just in

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Speaker 2: the US, but all over the world is do we

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Speaker 2: want to be society that's driven by fear and with

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Speaker 2: all that comes with that, anger, anxiety, insecurity. Or do

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Speaker 2: we want to be a society that's fueled by love

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Speaker 2: and by all that comes with that, compassion and kindness

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Speaker 2: and generosity and looking out for one another. And so

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Speaker 2: that's ultimately what I hope that we can build together.

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Speaker 2: It's a world fueled empowered by love. And I think

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Speaker 2: that's a world where we can build extraordinary things, where

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Speaker 2: we can bring benefits to everyone, where we can overcome

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Speaker 2: adversity no matter what comes, and where we feel a

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Speaker 2: sense of optimism and hope. It worries me greatly that

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Speaker 2: as I travel that so many people feel pessimistic and anxious,

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Speaker 2: But I also think that what gives us hope during

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Speaker 2: hardship is our connection to one another. And so that's

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Speaker 2: what I want us to rebuild you know in our lives,

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Speaker 2: we have it within us. I think this is actually

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Speaker 2: our true nature. It's a question of giving voice to

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Speaker 2: it and coming together around that kind of society. And

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Speaker 2: I think we can build it.

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Speaker 1: We will, Yeah, we will, thank you. So what we

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Speaker 1: like to do is to read a recipe. And you

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Speaker 1: chose the recipe of pumpkin soup. Yes, so would you

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Speaker 1: like to read that recipe? And you can read it

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Speaker 1: anyway you like.

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Speaker 2: Sure, So this is a recipe for pumpkin soup. And

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Speaker 2: I chose pumpkin soup in part because I having grown

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Speaker 2: up in Miami, Florida, where it's very warm, and then

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Speaker 2: having subsequently moved to very cold weather places, I was

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Speaker 2: always craving warmth and soup was the easiest way for

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Speaker 2: me to find that. And I love pumpkins part because

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Speaker 2: I love Halloween. So pumpkin soup three tablespoons of extra

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Speaker 2: virgin olive oil, fifty grams of butter, two cloves sliced scarlet,

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Speaker 2: twenty sage leaves, a two kilogram pumpkin, peeled, seated, cut

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Speaker 2: into large cubes. One potato, peeled and cubed, one red chili,

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Speaker 2: one liter of chicken stock, two tablespoons of grated parmesan

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Speaker 2: and one tablespoon of crim fresh. Heat the olive oil

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Speaker 2: and butter, Add garlic and sage and fry for five minutes.

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Speaker 2: Add the pumpkin and potato. Fry for one minute before

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Speaker 2: adding chili. Seasoning and season well with salt and pepper.

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Speaker 2: Poor enough stock to cover the pumpkin and bring to

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Speaker 2: a boil. Reduce the heat and simmer for twenty minutes

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Speaker 2: until the pumpkin is tender. Strain half of the stock

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Speaker 2: from the pumpkin into a bowl and set aside. Pouring

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Speaker 2: what is left into a food processor pulse until the

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Speaker 2: mixture is very thick. Return the mixture to the pan

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Speaker 2: and add strained stock and stir. Serve with parmesan and

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Speaker 2: a drizzle of olive oil and crumb fresh on top.

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Speaker 1: Is this something you can imagine eating and cutting?

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Speaker 2: Yes? In fact, I found myself getting hungry even though

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Speaker 2: I had a whole meal after reading this recipe. This

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Speaker 2: is wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So if we begin at the beginning, this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a long, less conversation about life and

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Speaker 1: work and loneliness and happiness. Food. Tell me about your family,

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Speaker 1: were they are they from India came to London to England.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my family's originally from India. My mother is from Bangalore,

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Speaker 2: a city in the south of India, and my father

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Speaker 2: is from a small farming village about two hours outside

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Speaker 2: of Bangalore, and they grew up in fairly modest households.

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Speaker 2: My mother's family was middle class. My father, though, came

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Speaker 2: from a poor farming community and his family did not

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Speaker 2: have much at all in the way of resources growing up.

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Speaker 2: After they got married, they moved to England and they

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Speaker 2: lived here for seven years, in London for some part

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Speaker 2: of that time, and then in other parts. They lived

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Speaker 2: in Leeds, They lived up north in Huddersfield, which is

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Speaker 2: actually where I was born, my sister was born. They

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Speaker 2: lived in Wales, Scotland, and then ultimately moved to Canada

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Speaker 2: and then eventually to the US.

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Speaker 1: Did they bring the food of India with them? They did.

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Speaker 2: They've never They've never left the cuisine they grew up

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Speaker 2: with behind, and they not only cooked and sought out

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Speaker 2: that cuisine when they were in England, but even growing up.

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Speaker 2: The aromas that I remember as a child are of

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Speaker 2: the Indian food that my parents cooked at home.

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Speaker 1: What was it like that. Do you remember they?

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Speaker 2: You know, they had very different styles of cooking. So

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Speaker 2: my mother was a primary cook, but my father cooked

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Speaker 2: often and he brought great joy to cooking. So my

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Speaker 2: mother her the hallmark of her food were it was

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Speaker 2: simple but rich flavors. So she would only cook with

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Speaker 2: a few ingredients, but she would somehow make all of

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Speaker 2: them sing and people from the community would often come

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Speaker 2: and ask her, how did you make that? How do

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Speaker 2: I have the list of ingredients, but somehow I can't

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Speaker 2: get quite the same flavor out of it. And she

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Speaker 2: would always say to me that one of her secrets

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Speaker 2: was that was her intention when she cooked. She said

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Speaker 2: she would think of the love that she wanted the

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Speaker 2: food to represent, and the love she wanted to give

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Speaker 2: to the person who enjoyed the food, and she would

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Speaker 2: bring that into her mind and pour it into the food.

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Speaker 1: That one of her ingredients.

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Speaker 2: Yes, love is one of her ingredients. And my father

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Speaker 2: was an incredibly creative cook. If my mother's a hallmark

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Speaker 2: was simplicity, his was complexity. So he had often many ingredients.

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Speaker 2: And if you ask my father, how did you make

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Speaker 2: that dish? Because it was so good, he'll have a

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Speaker 2: hard time telling you because he doesn't quite remember the proportions,

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Speaker 2: and this he doesn't measure. He just adds based on

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Speaker 2: his instinct. But so he's a creative cook, but an

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Speaker 2: an equally talented one.

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Speaker 1: But did he cook on special occasions or did he

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Speaker 1: just cook every day?

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Speaker 2: He did he when we were growing up, he would

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Speaker 2: cook on special occasions because he was he was working office.

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Speaker 2: He was a doctor, and he initially worked in emergency

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Speaker 2: rooms and in hospitals, then eventually set up his own clinic,

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Speaker 2: you know, in Miami in nineteen eighty five, when he

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Speaker 2: continues to work in until this day now alongside my sister,

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Speaker 2: who's also primary.

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Speaker 1: Doctors in the family.

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Speaker 2: Only three more than three three of us yet are

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Speaker 2: just three of us in the nuclear family. So we

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Speaker 2: say my mother has is essentially close to a doctor

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Speaker 2: herself because she she actually ran the medical practice that

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Speaker 2: my father worked, and she managed the whole operation, and

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Speaker 2: because there was a small shop, it was just the

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Speaker 2: two of them seeing patients. A lot of times the

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Speaker 2: patients would come and talk to her about what they

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Speaker 2: were going through, and over time she came to sort

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Speaker 2: of recognize various symptoms and be able to make diagnoses

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Speaker 2: on the side, so it was very interesting. But yeah, and.

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Speaker 1: When you went to Miami, did you live within a

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Speaker 1: very Indian community or was.

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Speaker 2: It When we first got there we didn't know many

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Speaker 2: people who were Indian. The Indian community was still small

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Speaker 2: were time is more, as any community grew, that became

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Speaker 2: an important part of our experience, But initially it wasn't

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Speaker 2: the case. And I think that's part of the reason

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Speaker 2: why I, uh, you know, I felt quite different as

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Speaker 2: a young person growing up. I didn't know a lot

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Speaker 2: of people in those early years who ate the food

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Speaker 2: that we ate, or had the customs that we had,

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Speaker 2: or had names that sounded like ours, and I often

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Speaker 2: felt like an outsider. And it's interesting. It's funny, you know,

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Speaker 2: how these early experiences stick with you. And I still

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Speaker 2: remember that feeling of what it felt like to be

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Speaker 2: an outsider and to not feel like you belong. And

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Speaker 2: it's why I have found that in years since, I'm

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Speaker 2: really sensitive to when other people feel like they're outsiders

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Speaker 2: because I felt that and it doesn't feel good.

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Speaker 1: So did your sister experience that as well? She did? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she did? Your parents and your parents did you? Did

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Speaker 1: your grandparents come with you at all? Did they.

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Speaker 2: I wish they had. They did not. They They stayed

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Speaker 2: in India and and I missed them a lot because

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Speaker 2: when we were young, during holiday, during Christmas and Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 2: people would go away and spend time with extended family.

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Speaker 2: They would come back with these wonderful stories about their

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Speaker 2: grandparents and about how Grandma gave them this sir Grandpa

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Speaker 2: took them here. And I often wish that our grandparents

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Speaker 2: were closer. But they came to visit a few times

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Speaker 2: when we were younger, and I really treasured those times.

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Speaker 2: Did they cook, yes, well, my grandmother would cook. My

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Speaker 2: mother's mother and my father's mother had unfortunately passed away

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Speaker 2: when he was young, when he was ten, but his

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Speaker 2: father would actually cook as well because he had been

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Speaker 2: used to cooking for himself. And they all had their

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Speaker 2: own styles. But the one thing that was common among

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Speaker 2: all of them is there was a lot of joy

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Speaker 2: when they were in the kitchen. They were cooking from

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Speaker 2: a place of happiness. They knew they were going to

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Speaker 2: be bringing happiness to people with the food. It wasn't functional,

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Speaker 2: It wasn't ah. I just got a meal on the table.

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Speaker 1: If you get the food.

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Speaker 2: Out, that's right. It was there's some real joy.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that is specific to Indian cooking that

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Speaker 1: is more of a group activity or good question?

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Speaker 2: And I think other cuisines other cultures have that as well.

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Speaker 2: But I do worry that in modern living that we've

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Speaker 2: gotten away from a lot of that, and that food

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Speaker 2: preparation has become more functional than nurturing and therapeutic, and

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Speaker 2: that old community style of sitting together and both making

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Speaker 2: the food and consuming the food. I think there's I

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Speaker 2: think some of that got lost, perhaps just as life

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Speaker 2: structures change and in the interests of efficiency, or we

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Speaker 2: can just get food delivered, or we can pop something

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Speaker 2: in the microwave, and it does feel like it saves time.

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Speaker 2: But I think perhaps what may not have been as

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Speaker 2: as deeply appreciated was how much was lost in terms

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Speaker 2: of the community that's built. The relaxation also that comes

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Speaker 2: when you're working with your hands and creating something beautiful

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Speaker 2: in the form of food that others will enjoy.

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Speaker 1: People often say to me, how can you cook for

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Speaker 1: one hundreds and fifty people and in the restaurant when

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Speaker 1: it's hard to give a dinner party at home for

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Speaker 1: twelve people, I can't do a dinner party for twelve

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Speaker 1: people at home. It's so much easier doing it in

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Speaker 1: a restaurant because you're collaborating, you know, you have you're cooking.

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Speaker 1: It is that thing of cooking with other people, sharing

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Speaker 1: a conversation, tasting each other's food, talking about what you're

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Speaker 1: going to do, and that community of working in a

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Speaker 1: restaurant is so nice.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: I do, of course cook for twelve people at home,

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Speaker 1: but it can be very solitary just being in the

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Speaker 1: kitchen by yourself.

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Speaker 2: It can be. Yeah, And that's where I think doing

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Speaker 2: it together, whether it's as family as friends, really makes

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Speaker 2: a difference. Some of my best memories growing up or

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Speaker 2: actually of all of us, my sister and I along

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Speaker 2: with both my parents actually cooking together. So when we

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Speaker 2: would have guests over, that was it was stressful at

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Speaker 2: times because we're going to get everything ready for the

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Speaker 2: guests in time, et cetera. But the fun part was

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Speaker 2: that we made things together. So one of my jobs

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Speaker 2: was to make the list of items that we were

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Speaker 2: going to cook that day, for sure going to shop

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Speaker 2: or but actually for cooking also like the dishes that

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Speaker 2: we were going to make, and then I would be

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Speaker 2: you know, a sous cheft for my mom, and then

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Speaker 2: she would help put things together. I would chop, I would,

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Speaker 2: you know, mix things together. I would watch things on

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Speaker 2: the stove and roast vegetables or other ingredients, and when

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Speaker 2: they were done, it was my job to check it

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Speaker 2: off in the list, and I had to ultimately make

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Speaker 2: sure that everything was checked off before the guests came.

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Speaker 1: So preparation for pure life, maybe even to this day,

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Speaker 1: when I go home, if we're going to have people over,

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Speaker 1: my mother so she'll turn to me and say, make

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Speaker 1: the list, make the liv So I make the list.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting what you said also about your grandparents, because

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Speaker 1: people that we've talked to on the podcast, very often,

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Speaker 1: if especially they've come from another country, from Ghana to

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Speaker 1: London or from China to London, from wherever they've traveled,

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Speaker 1: they very often talk about their grandparents almost more than

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Speaker 1: their parents, because sometimes the mother adapts, you know, the

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Speaker 1: mother her cooking. The child only sometimes wants to eat

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Speaker 1: the food of the culture he's moved to, but the

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Speaker 1: grandmother clings to more to what you know or the grandfather,

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Speaker 1: I should say, from their country. Did your mother adapt

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Speaker 1: or did she only cook Indian food? Did she ever

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Speaker 1: make you hamburgers or meatballs and spaghetti or was all

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Speaker 1: the food of your home the food of India?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, my mother still to this day primarily

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Speaker 2: cooks Indian food, and almost exclusively, i would say, so

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Speaker 2: that is what we ate growing up. My father, on

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Speaker 2: the other hand, has he still makes a lot of

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Speaker 2: traditional Indian food, but he does a lot of creative

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Speaker 2: fusion food. So he has an Indian version of spaghetti

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Speaker 2: that he makes, and of other pastas well. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what he calls doesn't actually have a name, but

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Speaker 2: when you eat it, you taste all of these flavorful

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Speaker 2: Indian spices. And then he does other interesting things too,

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Speaker 2: Like he'll take jackfruit, which is I'm not sure if

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Speaker 2: you've had it or not, but it's a it's a

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Speaker 2: fruit that grows in the tropics. When it's ripe, it's

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Speaker 2: yellow and rubbery and very sweet. But in its raw

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Speaker 2: form it can actually be used for savory dishes and

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Speaker 2: it's quite tender. It can actually mimic a steak. So

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Speaker 2: he'll chop up, you know, raw jackfruit, and then he'll

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Speaker 2: drop it into the pasta, and so it almost tastes

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Speaker 2: like you're eating meat in the pasta, but it's all vegetables,

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Speaker 2: so he'll do all of these crazy creatives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, both of them sound like great cooks.

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Speaker 2: They are.

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Speaker 1: How did they work all day and then come home?

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Speaker 1: And did you sit with your sister every night around

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Speaker 1: the table and your parents after a long day at school.

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Speaker 2: We did. And the reason we did that was actually

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Speaker 2: because my parents were insistent and that we always have

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Speaker 2: dinner together every night. Sometimes, my sister and I as

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Speaker 2: kids growing up, we'd get annoyed, you know, we'd say, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, our friends get to like sit in front

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Speaker 2: of the TV during dinner time. Why can we do that?

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Speaker 2: Or you know, why don't you guys have dinner. We're

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Speaker 2: busy doing something, you know, we're reading this book. Well,

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Speaker 2: we'll have dinner later. But they were always insistent that

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Speaker 2: we have to eat together, so much so that when

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Speaker 2: I was in high school, Ruthie, and when we you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes we had a lot of homework and I was

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Speaker 2: in the middle of like writing an essay and I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to stop exactly when dinner time was, and

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Speaker 2: they would just they would just wait for us. And

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Speaker 2: I still feel guilty, and soone embarrassed to say this,

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Speaker 2: but like, I still remember many nights in high school

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Speaker 2: where I was like stressed about an exam and I

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Speaker 2: was late studying and I didn't feel could quite break

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Speaker 2: and they would stay up and just wait until and

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Speaker 2: we would eat at nine or nine thirty or ten

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Speaker 2: o'clock at night, but they would just wait because they

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Speaker 2: wanted to have dinner together. I still can't believe I

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Speaker 2: made them wait that long.

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Speaker 1: So I probably didn't mind. I think I can imagine

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Speaker 1: waiting for my children to finish. I think you know

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Speaker 1: they probably So was your sister as well, would you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Study?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And we were in the same grade growing up,

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Speaker 2: so we thankfully had a lot of those same assignments

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Speaker 2: and everything.

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Speaker 1: So but yeah, did you go to friends' homes for dinner?

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Speaker 1: Did you go to other people's houses for dinner?

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Speaker 2: We did. Yes, we went to other people's homes. And

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Speaker 2: and that was always a real source of joy because

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Speaker 2: it was it was always a family affair, and it

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Speaker 2: was always always very informal. So it wasn't that there

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Speaker 2: was a big long table and everyone would sit together

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Speaker 2: around that table. Usually there was food that was made.

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Speaker 2: People would often bring food almost public style, all the

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Speaker 2: dishes would be laid out on a table and everyone

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Speaker 2: would just noisily, messily gravel plate, you know, put food

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Speaker 2: on it, and then go to various parts of the

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Speaker 2: house in small groups and this and that. And as

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Speaker 2: kids we were, you know, we would just all hang

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Speaker 2: out in a room together and eat and play and

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Speaker 2: it was fun. I really enjoyed it. It was community,

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Speaker 2: it was food, it was entertainment.

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Speaker 1: Very evocative, very beautiful description of this life at home.

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Speaker 1: Did that it was at a big break then when

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Speaker 1: you went off to university, when you went to Harvard,

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Speaker 1: was a shock to the system that suddenly, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: were away from that.

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Speaker 2: It was it was a shock. It was actually extremely

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Speaker 2: hard for me, and I struggled a lot, especially during

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Speaker 2: my first semester away. I felt really I felt just

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Speaker 2: really disconnected and being a shy, introverted kid, I had

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Speaker 2: a hard time just making friends off the bat, you know.

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Speaker 2: It took me a while to get to know people,

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Speaker 2: and so that was it was very hard. I remember

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Speaker 2: coming home at the for the first time after enrolling

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Speaker 2: in college during Christmas break and I had my suitcase

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Speaker 2: in my hand. The door opened, I stepped in, I

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Speaker 2: put my bags down, I looked up at the ceiling

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Speaker 2: of the house in which I had grown up, took

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Speaker 2: a deep breath, and I said to my father, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I've just been released from prison. And I

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Speaker 2: had almost forgotten that I had said that until a

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Speaker 2: few years ago. He reminded me, and if I brought

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Speaker 2: back this flood of emotions of what it had felt

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Speaker 2: like to be just separated from this love that had

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Speaker 2: nurtured me for so long. And things got a bit

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Speaker 2: better after that, as I was able to make friends

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Speaker 2: and build a community. But some years after, when I

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Speaker 2: was in my residency training in my first year, when

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Speaker 2: I was working, you know, abob eighty ninety hundred hours

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Speaker 2: a week, but seeing and working with patients who are

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Speaker 2: going through some of the most difficult moments of their life,

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Speaker 2: including people who are my age, you know, at that time,

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Speaker 2: young people in their twenties who were dealing with metasatic

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Speaker 2: cancer and only had a few months to live. I

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Speaker 2: started reflecting them and thought to myself, I never want

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Speaker 2: to lose my connection to my family. I want to

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Speaker 2: make sure that every time moment that I have that

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Speaker 2: I'm spending it with family and friends. You know, whether

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Speaker 2: that's vacation time, weekend time. I was like, I want

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Speaker 2: to make that a priority. So after that, I started

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Speaker 2: going home much more often to see my parents and

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Speaker 2: to spend time with them, even if it was just

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Speaker 2: for a weekend. You know, it was worth it because

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Speaker 2: I always remember those patients I cared for, those young patients,

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Speaker 2: and it just reminds me that we never We all

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Speaker 2: don't know how much time we have, and I want

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Speaker 2: to make sure I'm spending that time with the people

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Speaker 2: the time I have with the people that I love.

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Speaker 1: Did you know The River Cafe has a shop. It's

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Speaker 1: full of our favorite foods and designs. We have cookbooks,

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Speaker 1: linen napkins, kitchen ware, toad bags with our signatures, glasses

405
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: from Venice, chocolates from Urin. You can find us right

406
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Speaker 1: next door to The River Cafe in London or online

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Speaker 1: at Shopthrivercafe dot co dot uk. When you were growing up,

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Speaker 1: you describe always eating at home and cooking at home

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Speaker 1: in the community of a home. But would you go

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Speaker 1: to restaurants in Miami?

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Speaker 2: Would that be a we would from time to time.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting that I do. I remember that my parents

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Speaker 2: because they liked spicy food in particular and some stories

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Speaker 2: I can tell you about spice and my father and

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Speaker 2: the crazy he made some special yes he makes He

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Speaker 2: makes a series of different hot sauces from different types

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Speaker 2: of peppers, including some are from habanero peppers, some are

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Speaker 2: from special Jamaican hot peppers, some are from ghost peppers.

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Speaker 2: He's like extremely spicy, saw so much so that when

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Speaker 2: he makes them, we all have to leave the house.

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Speaker 2: When he makes the sauce these, we have to step

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Speaker 2: outside because and he wears something that's equivalent to a

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Speaker 2: gas mask when he makes it, because the fumes a

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Speaker 2: is so incredibly overpowering. But once he's made it and

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Speaker 2: put it in a bottle, you add a little bit

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Speaker 2: to your food. It tastes incredible as long as you

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Speaker 2: can tolerate the spice. So but you know, and I

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Speaker 2: generally I eat a lot of spice, but that level

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Speaker 2: of spice is even hard for me to tolerate.

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Speaker 1: Would he find a restaurant that could serve him the equivalent.

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Speaker 2: So we would always be in the lookout for them,

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Speaker 2: And so I remember many times going to Chinese restaurants,

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Speaker 2: for example, and he would ask them like can you

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Speaker 2: make it spicy? And there was always a cadence of

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Speaker 2: this conversation. First question, can you make it spicy? They

436
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: would say yes, Second question, how spicy can you make it?

437
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 2: They would say, well, we have a five star scale

438
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 2: and we can make it one to five. Then the

439
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 2: third question would say can you make seven stars? Can

440
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: you do get six? And then they would get scared

441
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: because they didn't want something to happen against you. But

442
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 2: then he would go through trying to convince him that

443
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: he really could take this spice. So generally when we

444
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 2: went out to eat, it was often in restaurants where

445
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: they hope people could make the food spicy. Chinese restaurants,

446
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 2: Thai restaurants, yeah, you know, food cuisines of that sort.

447
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: And when you were in university, did you what was

448
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: the food like? There was that a shock as well,

449
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: just sitting down to the kind of food they serve

450
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: at school.

451
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: Did you go out it was? I actually lost a

452
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: lot of weight in college. You know, I think I'm

453
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: a fairly normal weight now, but I actually, if you

454
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 2: can picture this, I weighed forty pounds less when I

455
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: was in college.

456
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: Did anybody notice, I mean, did anybody notice that there

457
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 1: was a student in his freshman year home, sick, losing

458
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: weight and lonely. Do you think was there any.

459
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 2: You know, no one ever asked me that question. I

460
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: outside of my family, I don't think anyone noticed, you know.

461
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 2: And but it was painful to my family. See, they

462
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 2: were there, clearly knew something was wrong. I wasn't feeling happy,

463
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: et cetera. But yeah, what I used to do is

464
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,239
Speaker 2: because I missed the food of home. Also is I

465
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 2: had a little packet of spicy powder that I would

466
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 2: take with me to the dining hall and I would

467
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 2: sprinkle it on everything, anything and everything you'd fine, I

468
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: would just like spice it up. And so even people

469
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: who didn't know me knew that I was I was

470
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 2: a kid with a spicy powder, you know who.

471
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: I have a friend who travels with chili's. Yeah, she

472
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: always travels with some chili that she can put on

473
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: yeah food. I don't know whether she's afraid of having

474
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: inconsequential food or whether she just loves it with spicy,

475
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: but she Well.

476
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: I learned that actually from my parents, because when we

477
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 2: would go out to restaurants I couldn't make food spicy.

478
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 2: Sometimes they'd be really disappointed. So they would always have

479
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: their own like powder that they would add it. I

480
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: remember a few times going out at that time. As kids,

481
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: we loved pizza and we wanted to eat pizza, and

482
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 2: we didn't make pizza at home, but we alwys wanted

483
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 2: to go to Pizza Hut or something, so sometimes it

484
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 2: would be grudgingly go and they would dutifully bring the

485
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: spicy powder and sprinkle it all over the pizza so

486
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: that they looked like red pizza.

487
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: You know, you in Harvard and Boston and Cambridge, did

488
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: you have lobsters or did you try the local food

489
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 1: from from the cave?

490
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: I had some of the local some of the Italian

491
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 2: food I had in the North End.

492
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: Was that a revelation or had you had at Miami?

493
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: It was?

494
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: It was much better in the North End. I think

495
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 2: the limited past side I had in Miami was it

496
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 2: wasn't as authentic, you know, as what the North Ends was.

497
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: So that was that was quite quite extraordinary. And then

498
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 2: the pastries also, like the Italian pastries, were just incredible.

499
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: I had never had anything like that before.

500
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. Indian desserts are they quite based? Am

501
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,239
Speaker 1: I saying that right? So?

502
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: Some of them are are dairy based, yeah, and a

503
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: lot of them are not. The Indian sweets tend to

504
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 2: be tend to be quite rich, you know, and also

505
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: quite sweet as well, which is why some people love them.

506
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: Some people really don't like them.

507
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: Do you like them?

508
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 3: I do?

509
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I have like thirty two sweet teeth,

510
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: so I have. I just love a love desserts, which

511
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: is part of the reason I try to eat them

512
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 2: very sparingly, because otherwise I would just eat dessert all

513
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: day long. But I used to when I was growing up,

514
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 2: I would I learned to make one of the sweets

515
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: in particular that became.

516
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: So it was.

517
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: It goes by different names, but in our family we

518
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: called it Ksey bath, and it's also called sheeta and

519
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 2: other parts of India. But it's a very it's sort

520
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: of my mom's type of dessert. It's very simple in

521
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 2: terms of the ingredients and involved. Basically, what you do

522
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: is you take a pen, you put let's say two

523
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: cups of cream of wheat, you know, and or something

524
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: equivalent to that. You roast that with some clarified butter

525
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 2: or ghee, and you put some raisins in there to

526
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 2: roast as well, So you're roasting that for a while

527
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 2: until you start to smell like the wheat, you know,

528
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 2: sort of aroma come to your nose, and once it's

529
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: slightly brown. Then which you do is that you actually

530
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: add You can add a couple of things. You can

531
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: start by adding a little bit of sugar, right about

532
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: a quarter a cup or a half cup of sugar,

533
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: just to you start to see a glisten in the

534
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 2: sugar melt. And then what I used to do is

535
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,719
Speaker 2: I would actually slice bananas and add them to it

536
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: as well. And then you crush cardamom, you know, with

537
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: the morning pestle, and then you sprinkle the cardameom on top,

538
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: and then you mix it all together and then let

539
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: the water evaporate until you have something that's very silky smooth,

540
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: and you just the combination of the sugar, the fruit

541
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: and the cardamom just really brings the dessert to life.

542
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: So I used to make that, you know, when I

543
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 2: was growing up. Yeah, I just made it a couple

544
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: of weeks ago.

545
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: From my kids, it seemed very like recent, was the

546
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: way you were describing it. Was it something that's just

547
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: always stayed in your mind.

548
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 2: It's always set in my head, Like I made it

549
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: two weeks ago for the first time in probably ten years,

550
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 2: and it brought back all these wonderful memories.

551
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you cook at home now?

552
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: Now?

553
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: Very little, you know, which I regret. I used to

554
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: cook a fair amount up until I finished my medical

555
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: training and then and then it just sort of fell off.

556
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: I did you put when you were doing your medical education?

557
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 3: Yeah?

558
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: Did you have a family then or you? I did,

559
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: so put everything into into your studies.

560
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. I got married later in life, when I was

561
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 2: thirty eight years old. In fact, I got married and

562
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: then now I have two wonderful kids. But in those days,

563
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: I was a bachelor doing my own thing in the kitchen.

564
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: What did you study in medicine? What was your specialty?

565
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: So I ended up studying internal medicine, which is the

566
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 2: care of adults, and I ended up specializing in hospital

567
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: based medicine. So when people were admitted to them, if

568
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: there's sick enough to be admitted to the hospital, then

569
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: I was the doctor who would take care of them there.

570
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 2: So that's that's the And yeah, I was grueling.

571
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: Would you would you be working?

572
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: They were long?

573
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: Again, I'm thinking about how you did you Did you

574
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: manage to cook? You said, you did cook when you

575
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: were I.

576
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: Did cook, yeah, but it wasn't I mean I had

577
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: to like cook a bunch of food and then like

578
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: eat it over several days because they were and sometimes

579
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: you would come home at three in the morning, and

580
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: then you'd have to leave two hours later, five in

581
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: the morning to go and start the next days around.

582
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: So there wasn't a lot of time to cook. So

583
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: I would try to cook in advance, you know, and

584
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: have some food, but sometimes it wasn't easy, and so

585
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: I ended up having to eat out or eat in

586
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: the hospital cafeteria a lot, which was we could talk

587
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: about hospital food.

588
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is such an issue now. The way we

589
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: feed our children and the way we feed sick people

590
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: in our society, I think tells us about how we

591
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: care for people.

592
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 2: No, I think it's very astutely said, and I think

593
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: you're right. I think one thing, if you look at

594
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: the list of medicines that we prescribe, there's one thing

595
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: that's missing from that list, and it's food, right, because

596
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: food is medicine, and food helps us heal in many

597
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,239
Speaker 2: direct and indirect ways. Yet somehow it does feel that

598
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: the food we give people in hospitals and the food

599
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: that we even give kids in school. I think about

600
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: the cafeteria, you know, in my school growing up, and

601
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: like what we used to eat eat, and it's not

602
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: the kind of I think food we would want to

603
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: give children and get people who are ill if we

604
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: fully understood just how powerful food is in healing and

605
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: how vital it is for our well being in sustenance.

606
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: And I do worry that what has happened in part

607
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 2: over the years is that we've allowed and i'm you know,

608
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,239
Speaker 2: my primary experiences with the United States, but I do

609
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: think sadly this is happening in many other parts of

610
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: the modernized world. I do think we've allowed our food

611
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 2: supplied to become poisoned in a sense by foods that

612
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: are overly processed and that are filled with excessive amounts

613
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: of salt and sugar, and we've gotten away from, I think,

614
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: some of the healthier food that we that we all need.

615
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: And it starts really early, you know. I think if

616
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: children had the opportunity to experience healthy food, I mean

617
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 2: for only, I think it would make a big difference.

618
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: And I do believe, just from a moral perspective, that

619
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: no child should ever have to go hungry. No child

620
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: should ever have to eat food that is bad for

621
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: them just to survive. Yet that is a reality that

622
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: so many families are living right now. And I do

623
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: think it comes from just a failure from a policy

624
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: perspective to understand the vital importance of healthy food in

625
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: raising our children and making sure that society is healthy

626
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: and whole.

627
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: And its interesting to think of how that happened and

628
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: when that happened, you know, the path to not being

629
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: concerned about feeding our children.

630
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: I think that the paradox is that we've somehow made

631
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: unhealthy food cheap and made healthy food expensive, which has

632
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: put health out of the reach of so many people

633
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 2: in society. And that is what we have to flip

634
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: because if we don't do that, then I worry that

635
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: this rise in chronic illness that we're seeing, heart disease, diabetes, cancer,

636
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: significant amount of which is driven by diet, that we

637
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: will see those trends continue unless we manage to get

638
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: back to the root of what's driving it, which is

639
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 2: in large part our diet.

640
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: And so you're going from describing being the person that

641
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: people met in hospital and working with patients, and how

642
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: did that segue from that until how do you become

643
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: a surgeon general? You know, people who are listening who

644
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: might not know whether the two words surgeon general comes from,

645
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: can you.

646
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: Tell us absolutely? Well? In the United States, the position

647
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: of surgeon General is designated to be an individual who's

648
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: sometimes informally called the nation's doctor, but whose responsibility is twofold.

649
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: And one is to make sure that the public has

650
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: the best possible information about health so that they can

651
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: make good decisions for themselves and their families. And the

652
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: second is to oversee one of our eight uniformed services

653
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: in the US government, which is called a US Public

654
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: Health Service Commission Corps. People are familiar with the Army,

655
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: the Navy, the Air Force. Well, one of our services

656
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: is the Public Health Service as well, and we focus

657
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: entirely on protecting the health of people, not just in

658
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: the United States, but also extending that mission outside the

659
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: US as well. So those are the responsibilities I have

660
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: as surgeon general.

661
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: And how did you go from being a doctor in

662
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: a hospital to being the surgeon general?

663
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I don't entirely know, to be honest

664
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: with you, and I'll tell you how it happened. But

665
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: after I finished my medical training, I was teaching at

666
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: a hospital, I was practicing medicine and caring for patients.

667
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 2: I was doing that for a good chunk of my time.

668
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: And then on the side, I was actually building a

669
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: technology company that I hope would help to accelerate medical

670
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: research to help bring treatments and cures to people more effectively.

671
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: And I had gotten involved probably in two thousand and seven,

672
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, I think around that timeframe, also

673
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: in health policy work. So I was doing that hodgepodge

674
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: of things like that you know, at the time, but

675
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 2: never actually thought of working in government. But then one

676
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: day I happened to be, you know, actually picking up

677
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: my dry cleaning that day from the dry cleaners, and

678
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: my hands were full, and my phone rank and it

679
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: was a two two area code, which is the Washington DC.

680
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 2: I lived in Boston at the time, and I didn't

681
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: recognize the number, so I didn't pick it up. But

682
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: then finally I decided, let me just take the number,

683
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: and that happened to be a call from the White

684
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: House at that time, asking if I'd be interested in

685
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 2: being considered for this position. And what I came to

686
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: understand later is that the President Obama and his team,

687
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 2: we're looking to modernize the Office of the Surgeon General.

688
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: They recognized this was a new age that we were

689
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 2: coming into where people receive their information differently, they learned

690
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: about health issues differently, and there's a whole new dimension

691
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 2: of health threats that we were facing, including the opiate

692
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: epidemic and the fentanyl crisis. So anyway, they seemed to

693
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: think that I might be a good fit for that role,

694
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 2: so they reached out at that time, and that's how

695
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 2: the whole journey began.

696
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: When you had that break between the Surgeon General with

697
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: President Obama and then now your position with President Biden,

698
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 1: tell me what did you do and how did that

699
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: lead to your interest in loneliness.

700
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: Well, to be honest with you, Ruthie, I was quite

701
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 2: lost in the beginning. And I know, I was coming

702
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 2: off of serving as Surgeon General for about two and

703
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 2: a half years or so, and my identity had become

704
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 2: wrapped up in that role, and I was abruptly as

705
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: civilian again and trying to figure out a bunch of questions.

706
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: And one of the things I was struggling with in

707
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 2: the process was that I had really lost any sense

708
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: of community during those few years that I served in government,

709
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: I had largely, you know, I sort of told myself,

710
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: I think, a familiar story that many people tell themselves

711
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: perhaps when they have jobs for a short period of time,

712
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 2: which is, I got to put everything I have into

713
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: this job, and I'll have time to do the right

714
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: catch up with life afterward. And as a result, I

715
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: had not caught up with friends. I had not kept

716
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 2: up with even family members at times, and when I

717
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: was with my parents or my wife or you know,

718
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: my sister, I was distracted often, you know, I was

719
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: going through my inbox, trying to clear out messages, keeping

720
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: up with the news that was relevant to my work,

721
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: and that just led to this real profound sense of

722
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: isolation and loneliness when I came out, and so I

723
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 2: struggled with that for quite a bit of time. And

724
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: in the process, one of the things that I was

725
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: digging into was recognizing that that experience of loneliness that

726
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: I was having, that it wasn't unique to me. I

727
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: was like reflecting more and more on conversations I had

728
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 2: had even when I was in office. The social connection

729
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 2: that I was missing and that I found was missing

730
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: for so many others, was not just a good feeling.

731
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 2: It was actually something that was really vital to our

732
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: physical health and our mental health, and it's why, well, ultimately,

733
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 2: when I wrote about loneliness, it was about that profound

734
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: health impact around the recognition that when we struggle with

735
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 2: being disconnected from one another, that actually has an impact

736
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: on our mortality. And the mortality impact actually of loneliness

737
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 2: and isolation are similar to the mortality impact we see

738
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: it's smoking, and even greater than that which we see

739
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: with obesity. So this is a real issue, but it's

740
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 2: also one that's deeply felt, and I certainly felt it

741
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,720
Speaker 2: a lot during that time. So coming back the second

742
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: time to serve felt very different than the first time,

743
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 2: in part because the country in the world was in

744
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: a very different place with COVID, but also because I

745
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: realized I really wanted to focus in on this deeper

746
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 2: mental health crisis that was running under the surface and

747
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: that was impacting so much of our lives, and that

748
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: was particularly impacting kids with rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide.

749
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 2: That we're all going in the wrong direction. And so

750
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 2: that has been really where I have focused much of

751
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 2: my time these last three years is on addressing loneliness

752
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: understanding the deeper roots of this mental health crisis, and

753
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 2: thinking about and honesty in a very personal context, not

754
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 2: just in terms of me, butters of my own kids.

755
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: You know, my kids are now six and seven, and

756
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: I want them to grow up in a world where

757
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: they feel happy they don't, where they feel connected to

758
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: other people, where they feel connected to other cultures. And

759
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 2: I want them to know that if they mess up

760
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: or do something wrong, that there are people who will

761
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 2: forgive them and wh will lift them up. And I

762
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 2: want to know that they will do that for other

763
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: people as well. But that means creating a world that's

764
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: more kind and compassionate, more forgiving and understanding, more connected

765
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: and invested in one another. But that's ultimately I think

766
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: the work that I feel is really essential for us

767
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: to do.

768
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: Now, would you also add trust to that? If you

769
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: have trust, then you trust that there will be that

770
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: support system or that people are not there to do

771
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: you harm that you then might accept more.

772
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: Yes, that is the right word. Trust.

773
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

774
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: And the thing is trust Trust can't be manufactured, and

775
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: it also doesn't come about overnight. It comes through relationship, right.

776
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: It's like when we get to know people and understand them,

777
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: then we come to try us them. And when we

778
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 2: trust people, we can also tolerate disagreement because we recognize

779
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: that that we're more than our opinion on a single issue, right,

780
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: that there's something deeper that binds us together, some common

781
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: hopes and dreams or shared humanity. But when that gets lost,

782
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: when we can't see each other as human beings, but

783
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 2: we only see each other as posts that that we

784
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: write on social media, or as positions on a particular

785
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: controversial issue, then it becomes very hard to build trust.

786
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,959
Speaker 2: It becomes hard then to move together in the face

787
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 2: of adversity. And that's why a key part of not

788
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 2: just preparing for better health, but also preparing for the

789
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 2: next pandemic has to involve rebuilding our ties with one

790
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: another and the trust that we have in society.

791
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 1: One of my favorite stories is of they were looking

792
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: into a happy community and happiness factors, and it was

793
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: this town in Denmark, and they interviewed people about why

794
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 1: they were happy, and it was to do with trust.

795
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 1: And they told the story about Danish woman who had

796
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: what I remember, had taken her baby to New York

797
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: and she went inside to made my Balthazar. One of

798
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 1: the you know, cafes there and left the baby outside

799
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: in a pram and she went in to eat because

800
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: that's what she would do in her town in Denmark.

801
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: You know, she thought that actually that's what they would do,

802
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: they would leave the baby outside. You know, she was

803
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: able to watch it. And she was arrested for you know,

804
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 1: being whatever you call irresponsible towards an infant because she'd

805
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: left a baby outside, you know. But that was to

806
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: do with trust. And I think that what you're doing

807
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: is so you know, was so inspiring and so important,

808
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: and you are actually in a position to make change.

809
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: People were saying in the River Cafe, thank you, So

810
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: as an American, I would add myself to those thanks

811
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: and to ask you, as our last question, if food

812
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 1: is something that helps loneliness, If food is the way

813
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: you cook for your own children and the experience of

814
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: taking them places. Food is also comfort, So what would

815
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: be your comfort food search in general?

816
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 2: My comfort food, well, there is a it's something my

817
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: mother makes and it's a particular dish. It's almost like

818
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 2: a spicy broth water that's called russam r a s

819
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: a M. And traditionally you would mix it with rice

820
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: to eat it, and it's beautiful, spicy, flavorful as curry

821
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: leaves in it, as pepper, has all kinds of spices

822
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: and very ripe tomatoes. But you can also pour it

823
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: in a cup and drink it. And when I do that,

824
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 2: I feel like it's almost like an elixir that I'm having.

825
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 2: It sort of fills me with warmth literally, but also

826
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: with these beautiful memories I have of my mother. You know,

827
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 2: I had a professor once who said to me, he said, lo,

828
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 2: He said, food is the calories you put in your body.

829
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 2: Food is the love your mother gave you as a child.

830
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: And I have thought about that so often because that's

831
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 2: where to me makes comfort food. Comfort food. It's the

832
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: food that reminds me of love. Thank you, Thank you

833
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: so much, Ruddy.

834
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: You'll see you again very soon.

835
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: I hope, so I as well have this love.

836
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table for in partnership

837
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: with Montclair.

838
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 3: Ruthie's Table four is produced by Atamei Studios for iHeartRadio.

839
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 3: It's hosted by Ruthie Rogers, and it's produced by William Lensky.

840
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Julia Johnson and mixed by

841
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 3: Nigel Appleton. Our executive producers are Faye Stewart and Zad Rogers.

842
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 3: Our production manager is Caitlin Paramore and our production coordinator

843
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: is Bella Cellini. Thank you to everyone at The River

844
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 3: Cafe for your help in making this episode.

845
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: Mm hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mhm